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Autism Gaslighting and Mate Crime
733 Plays1 year ago
What does intentional and unintentional gaslighting look like for Autistic people? Why is Mate Crime such a big problem for us? What are some neurodiverse relationship green flags and red flags?
Joely Williams (@joelywilliams_myautisticwings) is a physically disabled Autistic speaker and author based in the UK. Diagnosed Autistic at 2 years old, but only aware of her neurodivergence at age 13, she speaks on lesser-known aspects of Autism and mental health from her own lived experience and knowledge as an Autistic woman.
My Links - https://linktr.ee/thomashenleyUK // Joely’s Website - www.myautisticwings.co.uk
Dbud Noise Cancelling Adjustable Ear Buds (20% Off with code: THOUGHTYAUTI) - https://dbud.io/thoughtyautipodcast
Breaking the ice, Thomas and Joely talk about their experiences with music therapy, nightlife, and music festivals as Autistic people. Joely describes herself as a strange mix of sensory seeking and sensory avoidant behaviours, feeling comfortable moshing it up with the best of them, but often feeling sensitive in other situations.
Joely explains the concepts of intentional and unintentional gaslighting, at worst being a manipulative tactic or at the least an unhelpful reality-denying series of comments. Joely highlights that unintentional gaslighting often has good intentions, but can often be ableist in nature when thinking about Autistic people in teaching or parenting contexts; denying the utility of stimming or highlighting sensory issues as 'not too bad' being too prime examples of unintentional gaslighting.
Infantilisation and stereotyping seem to be two common ways people gaslight autistic people. Those infantilising autistic people might paint them as children to deny their comments or opinions, or even enforce unwanted care on them. When stereotyping they may highlight things around empathy or social incompetence as a means for manipulation.
Speaking on the reasons why Autistic people may be more prone to gaslighting, direct communication preferences, Alexithymia, mental illness, and prior negative conditioning are all highlighted. Joely describes the Autistic mind as processing facts first, meaning that it may take some time to process the context or social indirect communication around a statement. Alexithymia may make it more difficult to set immediate boundaries and mental illnesses like anxiety, prior invalidation of our experiences in youth, and bullying would definitely contribute to our lack of belief in our own experiences,
Mate Crime is where someone takes advantage of a vulnerable person in order to extract monetary or intimate benefits from the individual or to humiliate and gain control over a person. Whilst being against the law, it's incredibly difficult to prove and takes advantage of a person's loneliness and isolation.
Going through t
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Transcript
Introduction to D-Buds and Podcast
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Speaker
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00:00:26
Speaker
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Focus on Autism and Gaslighting
00:00:45
Speaker
Good day, and welcome back to the 4D Audio Podcast with your host, Mr. Thomas Endley, of course. Welcome back to the Autism Podcast, and today, we've got a bit of a special episode for you today, as per usual. We're going to be talking all about autism and gaslighting.
00:01:07
Speaker
what the difference between unintentional and intentional gaslighting is, what the aspects of gaslighting are quite applicable to autistic people like stereotyping, infantilization,
00:01:23
Speaker
some stuff about why we may be more prone to gaslighting as well as what make crime is and what it looks like and lastly we're going to end up chatting about the different red and green flags that you can look for in romantic relationships or within friendships
00:01:41
Speaker
So, before I introduce my guest, I just want to give a little bit of a backstory.
Meeting Jolie Lee at the Autism Show
00:01:47
Speaker
I met Joey Lee at the Autism Show in Manchester, I believe, and this, for anyone who doesn't know, is kind of like a speaking event where they have lots of different
00:02:00
Speaker
organizations who come and sort of demonstrate their products or like the services that they offer. But it's also an opportunity to hear from both experts as well as experts by experience, which is where me and Jolie came into chat about things. So, Jolie, how are you doing today? Hi. I'm very good. Thank you. How are you?
00:02:29
Speaker
Not too bad. As I said before, it's been a bit of a crazy week. I was supporting a residential for disabled young people for about three days this week. So it was very lovely and rewarding, and I really enjoyed it. Also, my social battery is pretty much, or has been pretty much flat for the past two days. Me too. It's starting to climb back up. Yay!
00:02:56
Speaker
Yeah, I've been in Wales for conference and things, and I'm pretty exhausted too, but yeah, like you said, climbing up. Yeah, yeah. So you do a lot of public speaking then?
Jolie's Public Speaking and Advocacy
00:03:10
Speaker
I do. I travel, I'm a national and international public speaker. I do motivational speeches about mental health and autism, disability.
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, I try to empower understanding in a shame-free way of all of autism's hidden depths and quirks and the hardships that sometimes, you know, it's hard to miss. So, yeah, I really, I love what I do and it's so rewarding. So, how did you get into like the world of public speaking and is that, do you do any of your stuff alongside that with your sort of career? Yeah, so,
00:03:53
Speaker
I started volunteering with a disability youth action team called the Chatterboxers and we sort of helped, we sort of designed like a magazine for other disabled people by disabled people and then we were like running workshops and as the charity grew, like my career and my volunteering grew. So I started doing speeches at different events and then sort of from there it sort of stumbled. And yeah, I love what I do and I'm just,
00:04:23
Speaker
very, very blessed and lucky that I'm able to do it. What did you start off with doing? Like how, like, because I know you mentioned about how you got into that area. What were you doing beforehand and how did you kind of fall into such a...
Public Speaking vs. Personal Conversations
00:04:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, for a lot of people that I talk to, they find it quite anxiety provoking to get up on stage or get in front of an audience online and chat.
00:04:53
Speaker
Yeah, so for me, I find it easier to talk in front of hundreds of people than I do talking one to one because I suppose one to one there's very much that to and fro and I find it really hard to.
00:05:06
Speaker
like start or maintain or finish a conversation. And because we're talking about something of interest to me, something that I'm passionate about, I can talk about it and I don't seem like I have that many difficulties. But in reality, one-to-one conversation is a lot harder for me than it is talking about something I'm
00:05:24
Speaker
I've monologues and practice to perfection. There's no interruptions, there's nothing that will change. For me, it's easier. But yeah, when I was at school, I never could have imagined I'd ever be able to do anything like this.
00:05:38
Speaker
Like before I started volunteering, I just, I was at like an arts university and I didn't really know where I was going. Like I sort of always knew I wanted to help people, but I didn't really know how I, especially as a disabled autistic person could do that. Like I've always loved my autism, I've always seen it as a gift, but it is a disability for me. It's very hard and I do have like 16 out of 100 average life skills.
00:06:05
Speaker
So I did always wonder, like, how do I make that dream of helping people a reality when I can't do basic things?
Volunteering and Hidden Skills
00:06:14
Speaker
And it was, yeah, volunteering sort of showed me the way, really, just sort of shone a light on all of those hidden skills and helped me understand the hardships enough to actually learn how to thrive with them and not in spite of them. And I think that's the beautiful part of it. And I try to sort of convey that message
00:06:35
Speaker
in my own work as a speaker and fingers crossed sounds. I relate quite a lot to the one-to-one kind of thing because I started with my own online stuff through similar areas. I used to create videos on YouTube
00:06:56
Speaker
And then, you know, I think at one point I was kind of going through a very big like self-improvement journey and I wanted to improve how well I could talk to other people.
00:07:12
Speaker
I relate as well to being extremely quiet and nervous and shy, particularly in secondary school. So when I actually started the podcast, one of my goals was to become better at one-to-one conversation.
00:07:30
Speaker
We've got about just over 60 episodes at the moment, so it seems to be going well, I think. Looking back on my first episode, I think a lot of people will find it quite funny just to see how different I am now to how I was. How much you've grown. True. I also used to do way, way much more editing than I do now, so I think that's a big factor.
00:08:01
Speaker
So when we were chatting before, in our pre-interview chat, we were talking a little bit about music therapy and a little bit about party and nightlife culture.
Music and Sensory Experiences
00:08:15
Speaker
Would you like to tell us a little bit more about the music therapy angle of famous? I can't remember exactly what we were saying about it. OK, so I love music.
00:08:27
Speaker
See, I don't know how to describe it, but I'm someone who can be both a sensory seeker and someone who's like sensory avoiding. So like, I love music and I can be at a festival and I can be in a mosh pit and I can be dancing all night, listening to really loud music, you know, and other times I will need to just have absolute sensory calm and have no sounds at all.
00:08:54
Speaker
But I think for me, in terms of music therapy, it's that, obviously, we like the music, but it's also part of the stim dance, you know? Like, you can systemize the data and all means of sensory seeking with that music and the movement as a part of these like mind-wandering stimulations of how you process background information. So...
00:09:18
Speaker
music therapy for me is not just therapeutic. Well, it does help me process like problems in my life I'm going through in a background way without me over internalizing and shutting down and getting really anxious. So I do get very anxious. I find specifically for me, like a lot of the ways that music's helped me is it kind of it's kind of
00:09:46
Speaker
doing it in a lot of different ways like i think sometimes when you're alexafimic it can be quite difficult to understand what your emotional state is like and i have lots and lots and lots of different playlists on my spotify and i just i have some that are a bit more kind of
00:10:09
Speaker
kind of dancy and upbeat and I have some that are quite depressing and sad and a lot of the time I can sort of tell where my mood's at by how much I want like want to listen to a certain playlist which is strange and then I guess at the same time sometimes listening to that music allows me to feel it a bit more and kind of process things a bit more that I'm feeling
00:10:38
Speaker
I totally relate to that. Absolutely. And I'm quite sensitive as well. So if I listen to like something really like I quite like metal sometimes, but sometimes my sensitivity and I will just get really angry for no reason, even though I could be perfectly happy before. I think it very much depends on my mood and what sort of sensitivities I'm feeling at the time. Yeah. But if you listen to the right playlist, it really helps. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:09
Speaker
I have a very eclectic taste in music. I like anything from electro swing to like hip hop to caravan palace.
00:11:23
Speaker
Bebe Bella do something something like that. I can't remember that. But then I listened to some like like American 19. I don't know what 19 is, but this is some American swing and like all the time music. But then I listened to metal, listen to like dark draft. I listened to a little bit of mainstream.
00:11:49
Speaker
music. I have a very wide liking of things. The only thing that I don't tend to listen to is
Comfort at Music Festivals
00:11:57
Speaker
country. I don't know why. I think it's because of the instruments that they use. It just doesn't
00:12:05
Speaker
Sometimes it's a bit too, I don't know how to describe, yes, I was gonna say like, pingy, but yeah, twangy is to think it messes with my brain a bit. I don't know why. Lots of different notes that are different twangs. And I think maybe that's the complication of noise, that my brain can't handle it. True.
00:12:29
Speaker
I tell you what though, you were saying about sort of going to festivals and going to mosh pits and stuff and like, I mean, I like music, but I don't tend to like going to see live music unless I can like sit down. So I'd be interested to know what your experiences are like in those kind of atmospheres as an autistic person. So I adore festivals.
00:13:00
Speaker
I think I started going to festivals when I was like 12 or something. Like my first big festival was Glastonbury and I went every year for like a decade or something. Very lucky because it's all so hard to get tickets. And we would just party all night. And when I say party, I'm not talking about drinking or anything like that, but like I would be dancing and listening to music all night because
00:13:27
Speaker
I just felt so at peace in those situations. Like when I first walked past that pyramid stage, I was looking all around me and there's all these dancing strangers and like tutus and weird hats and stuff. And I was like, I'm at home. Like these people are just like me, a little bit strange, but absolutely owning it. And I just felt so at peace there. And I think the music and the mosh pits and things kind of made me feel at home too.
00:13:55
Speaker
But yeah, it's different for everyone. Yeah, I do like to go out to the nightclubs now and again on occasion. Just not a lot, most of the time. I'm much more of a plug in my headphones and listen to music on my own kind of person. Yeah, I used to go out a lot more, but I think I got old, so.
00:14:22
Speaker
I think, to be honest, I would like to go out a bit more. I think it's more like, you kind of, it's hard to organize sometimes in adult life. Like when you're just going, like exiting from school or you're just at university, it's so much easier to like have those things just readily available display. Oh, they're going out, they're going out. Oh, I can join them.
00:14:50
Speaker
enjoying these people. Yeah. I could never organize it on my own. No, totally. Totally. Not the same.
00:14:58
Speaker
Well, I know that we're not here to talk about music and party life and stuff like that. We're here to talk about gaslighting, which I think is a term that perhaps many people will recognize or at least know a certain amount about.
Gaslighting: Intentional vs. Unintentional
00:15:20
Speaker
So I guess like there are
00:15:22
Speaker
particularly two types of gaslighting that spring to mind in unintentional and intentional gaslighting. So I'd really want to understand what do those two types of things look like in real life in different situations? It's a very good question.
00:15:45
Speaker
So for me, I've been talking about gaslighting for like a decade now. So I like to think I was talking about it before it became cool. Gaslighting is a very, very difficult topic to talk about because it is very complicated. And I think there's many different types, but the two that I know most is unintentional and intentional. So generally, gaslighting is when someone manipulates us using psychological means into making us doubt our own sanity,
00:16:15
Speaker
live to reality experiences or self and our memory too. And we can, people can gaslight us in numerous ways, like they can gaslight us intentionally with an intention to cause harm and gain control over us. Or it can be unintentional where the intention, and this is where it gets complicated. The intention is sometimes to actually help us in particularly if we are autistic. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:44
Speaker
And if we are autistic, we can be gaslighted by anyone. You know, it can be our family, our friends, bosses, peers, teachers or doctors.
00:16:55
Speaker
And often it comes about because people just don't know how to help us because autism is so misunderstood and it's an invisible disability a lot of the time. We can't see those hardships that we have. And there's always this ableist sort of perfection, obsessed society that's like everyone needs to act a certain way to be good. And there's all of these things. So people try to help us by making us
00:17:20
Speaker
change our perceptions of ourselves and our reality to mold us into what they think would help us. And it doesn't always work because it doesn't help us because they don't understand what will help us and they don't understand our hardships enough to know that these things really cannot help us.
00:17:41
Speaker
So like, as you said, sort of the the intentional one is kind of it's used as a way to kind of manipulate people into feeling a certain way about certain things or feeling about feeling a certain way about themselves or their partner. Yeah. I've experienced intentional gaslighting before, which is
00:18:07
Speaker
it's kind of a tricky one because i think when we think of any kind of social emotional thing we kind of like to think about it in sort of like the moment or the time at which it happens whereas a lot of the time these types of things tend to be
00:18:31
Speaker
very very like background and kind of just now and again and they just kind of like it's not processed yeah it's not it's not like you can say oh right you're gaslighting me now it's like it seems to be like a like a growing thing that just um you don't really pick up on at the time but when you look back on things it's it's a lot more apparent
00:18:57
Speaker
I think that's what makes us so vulnerable to it as well, because if we do as autistic people, if we do struggle to process information and make connections like that, it does mean that what could be really obvious to other people is just not that apparent to us. I could feel the rain on my skin and not process that it's raining. Sometimes I can't even process what my own name is if I'm really shut down. So if someone's treating me badly and they're taking advantage of me,
00:19:26
Speaker
you know, for instance, if someone was to like, move, like move my keys, and then I, I'd be like, I know I left them on the table, but the person moved the keys, and they're like, no, you definitely didn't leave on the table. Or they take money out of your purse and be like,
00:19:43
Speaker
No, you never have that money to begin with. You're not right in the head sort of thing and it's not right. It's not nice, but it makes you doubt every little fibre of your own self-belief and then it just snowballs into you just not really understanding or knowing or trusting any part of your own judgment until you're just... Yeah, I don't know how to explain it.
00:20:13
Speaker
But that processing is a big part of it. Because I think that kind of intentional gaslighting is something that people can perhaps understand to a certain extent. But I think one area that I believe is a little bit harder for me to wrap my head around is the unintentional aspect of it.
00:20:42
Speaker
How does, how does that happen? Like, in what kind of context would that, would that be a thing? So like for autistic people in general, like what I was saying to do, like trying to help us. Yeah. Okay. Um, so for example, people have, or society has an idea of how autistic people should behave and they think that it will help us. So they think we should maybe stop stimming, you know,
00:21:07
Speaker
And they might say, stop stimming. And stop stimming in itself is not unintentional gaslighting. But if you add on the psychological manipulation, which is stop stimming, there's no reason why you need to stim. It does not help you. And, you know, you can control it if you tried. That's the unintentional gaslighting. That's the psychological manipulation because it's like, I mean, it does help me. That's why I'm doing it. It's not easy to control. That's why I'm doing it.
00:21:37
Speaker
Because believe me, I'd be masking it if I could. And it does help me. And, you know, those judgments, you know, based on what society thinks would help us and also make us maybe easier to deal with to other people. So it's kind of like neglecting someone's like lived experience and perceptions just because
00:22:04
Speaker
you don't believe that that is something that people can, yeah, that is right. Like, yes, maybe if it's because our lived reality is so different, like for other people, like a hug might not burn them and they'd be like, well, why are you having such white? Why not just hug them? Why not just shake their hands? You know, and they might guess it's not a big issue. It's not a big issue to them because they've never experienced it. They could never perceive a reality different to their own.
00:22:30
Speaker
because they've been sort of taught by society what will help autistic people, which is generally making us mask our autism, pretend that we're not autistic, which of course doesn't help us in any way. They could use the psychological manipulation, the part of the gaslighting, which would be like, there's no reason why you don't
00:22:51
Speaker
hug people that this feeling you have isn't real.
Misunderstandings and Stereotypes
00:22:55
Speaker
It's impossible to feel it, that sort of thing. I used to get gaslighted, unintentionally, by doctors and teachers for my shutdowns. Just as a background, my shutdowns, I can lose the ability to walk and talk. Like I said earlier, sometimes I just...
00:23:14
Speaker
I don't even, I can't even access my own name. Like I'm so shut down. I'm not the person I used to be. And when this would happen at school, it would be just, I'd be totally unable to do anything, but the doctors would be like, whoa, it's all in your head. It's all easily within your control if you wanted to change it. And it's an overreaction like that is impossible.
00:23:41
Speaker
So basically the fault is then with me for something that I cannot control. And yeah, it's because the lived reality is just so different. They could never perceive it to be real. And they teach us that to make us be less autistic almost. Selective mutism definitely is a thing and it happens. Absolutely. For me most of the time when I ever shut down, I think that's a really difficult part because I think some people
00:24:11
Speaker
you know as you said they don't really get it and at the same time like i think some people can have like personal like reactions to like if if they've contributed towards you having a shutdown
00:24:25
Speaker
and you're not speaking to them and you're not replying to them, they can be like an air of being annoyed at you. They can take it personally. Taking it personally, exactly. Yeah. But the thing I like to sort of remember is that unintentional gaslighting is an intention to help. So if there is no shame when people want intentionally gaslight us, because they are trying to help, they just don't know how to.
00:24:55
Speaker
And it's not really, like, you know, parents and teachers will probably say for stuff to their children and their students all the time, you know, stop stimming, make eye contact, you know, with all the psychological manipulation that make people change their reality to actually do what they think would help them. And, but it's not their fault that they, sorry, that's not a word. It's not their fault that they were taught by society what a toxic way of what would actually help us.
00:25:24
Speaker
And I think as long as everyone is challenging themselves and in a healthy way and not invalidating their feelings, it's okay that we can all sort of keep growing together because it is a learning journey.
00:25:42
Speaker
Although there is, I suppose, an aspect of gaslighting that I think is very, just from my own personal experiences, but from just thinking about it, the aspects of stereotyping and infantilization. Do you have any experiences with those two or ways of explaining it that might be helpful?
00:26:08
Speaker
Where do I start? Okay, so I get infertilised a lot. And it's because it's often because of my shutdowns and because sometimes it is stereotyped that autistic people aren't really adults. Like, autistic adults aren't really adults and we're just really like children or, you know, whatever, which obviously is not the case. And I do get infertilised a lot.
00:26:37
Speaker
especially when I'm, because I'm an ambulatory wheelchair user, so I have a wheelchair, so especially when I'm in my wheelchair. But like recently I went to get a vaccine and there was a nurse who, she infertilised me so much, she was
00:26:54
Speaker
she made me she treated me like I was an actual toddler like she was there like oh you're here for your ouchie vaccine you don't know what a vaccine is do you oh I'll get how about I give you a lolly and I'm like I don't want a lolly she was like how about I give you a treat you can have a sticker book and I was like oh my god
00:27:13
Speaker
Did they know that you were autistic before? The thing is, she knew I was autistic, but she was treating me perfectly fine until the moment she knew I was autistic. I was like, oh, so, hi, I'm autistic, so just... Yeah, that tends to be that way, doesn't it? That's why I'm doing this, but while I'm stimming, I can still, it's helping me focus on what you're saying. And it's, you know, I just carry on, you know, I can understand what you're saying because I'm stimming. But then it was like a curtain dropped and she was like treating me like a baby all of a sudden.
00:27:44
Speaker
And it was a massive example of infantilization. And I have to say, it's not usually that bad. That's a very worst case scenario sort of thing. Most professionals know a lot better. But these things do happen because there's a very, there's a big misconception of what it means when we are stimming. Like it can look childish to some people when they're stimming. Like it can look like we're playing.
00:28:10
Speaker
It's really interesting sort of like the dynamic between how we are, like what people say about us when we're younger, as opposed to what people say about us when we're older. Like when we're younger, we're kind of characterised as this like little professor kind of, you know, interesting child that doesn't seem to be able to communicate with people their own age and prefers to talk to adults and like,
00:28:39
Speaker
So sort of this kind of like old soul mentality of what we're like. And then when we get older, it's like, it's the opposite. It's like, you know, I think I have been thinking about it a lot and I think it's a lot to do with.
00:28:54
Speaker
You know, just the fact that we don't necessarily apply ourselves to those social norms at any age, really. And so people always don't necessarily know where to put us. And when we don't fit those particular
00:29:13
Speaker
stereotypes of what adults should be like and what adults should say and what kind of, um, life, um, skills they have, then they kind of automatically put us into this box of like, Oh, they're not proper adult yet. They're immature. Like, yeah. And that's it. It's like, I'm still a capable, mature adult, even when I'm stimming, I'm still a capable, mature adult, even when I'm nonverbal, like I can still,
00:29:43
Speaker
I can still make choices. I'm still an independent adult. These things don't change just because I'm shut down or because I'm autistic. Especially if I've been empowered with one-to-one support to be independent. I find that interesting too, because people think that being dependent on care and support is the opposite of independence.
00:30:09
Speaker
And I get that. I understand why, because on the face of it, that's exactly what it sounds like. But the definition of independence is to be outside of or like outside of other people's control so that you can make your own choices. You can have your own freedom to do things. And I think with me in particular, I have 16 out of 100 average life skills. I need like a lot of life skills and self-care help and independence.
00:30:39
Speaker
from carers and things. But that care support helps me be independent and make those choices. And I would never be independent without it. Like I could never do anything like this. And I think part of that is that people look at autistic people and they think, oh, they infertilise us and they're like, well, they need all of this care support. They're not independent adults. Whereas actually they could, if you empower us properly, we can still be.
00:31:09
Speaker
independent, it's just different to how society expects it to be. Yeah. I think that that's, that's a really good point. It's, um, and also the idea of independence is very funny anyway, because it's, it's always, it's never a black and white thing. It's very much like a gray sliding scale kind of thing. Like,
00:31:34
Speaker
Everyone's dependent on some human for, well, actually for quite a lot of things in life. Like the people who make all the furniture and the equipment that you have, people who provide water and take out the garbage and, you know, produce food that you can consume and sell the food to you. Yeah, exactly. And with support, it's pretty much exactly the same thing. Like someone's providing you a service.
00:32:05
Speaker
in order for you to, you know, get through life a little bit easier or be able to, I guess, reach a level where you're able to feel happy and, you know, fulfilled with your needs and stuff. Yeah. See, I see it like that. I see it as like everyone else is at like a baseline where they can thrive and be independent.
00:32:28
Speaker
and disabled people to see people might be hearing, we just need that little bit of extra help to get to that baseline. And that's all that care is. It helps us get to the same baseline as everyone else so that we can still thrive and be independent and be mature adults.
00:32:46
Speaker
I forgot what I was going to say, train of thought just disappeared there. There is an aspect of, particularly the stereotyping thing that I feel has been the most harmful for me in relationships, and particularly stereotyping around competence in social situations and empathy, which, you know,
00:33:14
Speaker
that's something that i've experienced a lot about you know particularly intentional gaslighting about me lacking empathy or me not being able to understand particular social situations or
00:33:31
Speaker
perhaps situations within a friendship or relationship. That seems to be something that's quite coherent with the type of gaslighting that I've experienced in life.
00:33:46
Speaker
Um, and it's, it's weird because like, you know, you only have to like watch some of the content that I produce or the podcasts that I make to understand that, you know, I'm definitely not lacking, I'm definitely not lacking in empathy. I'm not lacking in the ability to understand social context and situations. In fact, you know, I'd say that I probably, I'm better at better at it than most net neurotypicals that I've come across. Um,
00:34:15
Speaker
But anyway, I feel like that's quite a big thing because it's like some people just have an inherent like superiority over us or they just can't like accept that we're mature but we're just mature in a different way and that we do understand things but we just navigate that in a different way. Yeah.
00:34:41
Speaker
And also I feel part of my autism helps me sort of delve deep into the psychological details of like every person, not in me. So whatever they do will say, like I've got this little psychological thing in my brain going, oh, I know why they're saying that. I know why they're doing that. Like I passed my child psychology NVQ4.
00:35:02
Speaker
at Cambridge University. I started it at like seven in the morning and I finished it by like 10 at night, like every module, every exam, like I passed it, aced it and a lot of it and the tutor sort of said it was because I, it was online by the way in a sort of learning environment that suited me. But the tutor said it was because she thought it was my autism that could help me dive into that psychological detail and work out
00:35:30
Speaker
And she said, actually, like, you're more empathetic than maybe some neurotypical people are because you have been taught to sort of fight to understand people because you're always misunderstood and you're always, people always claiming that you're misunderstanding them. So, and I think that's a big part of it. Like, like you, I'm hugely empathetic, like, to the point that it hurts.
00:35:57
Speaker
But that empathy can also shut me down. So it can appear like I have no empathy. It can feel like it can look like I'm really cold or I'm not responding, but that's because I'm so shut down with the emotional pain of it. Like my entire body will be on fire with like volcanoes. I'll be itchy everywhere. I'll be in pain and it will shut me down and I don't know how to respect those situations.
00:36:21
Speaker
Yeah, I've been in those kind of situations where I've had people tell me something that's really emotional and I relate to what you're saying because I make less eye contact. I kind of look into the distance. I'm really trying to process and understand what someone's saying.
00:36:44
Speaker
And some people take that as me not being interested and not being caring, whereas I'm just really trying to understand where they're coming from and what they're experiencing. And also it's partly like a defence mechanism because a lot of autistic people would have been told off and sort of shamed and invalidated and unintentionally isolated so often about not being empathetic and not reacting properly in certain social situations where emotional values are really high.
00:37:13
Speaker
And that can create this trauma defense mode where we're like actively hiding from it because our body already expects to be in trouble and we shut down. And for me, I soon learned like very quickly at a young age that I was the problem.
00:37:32
Speaker
Like I made that whatever emotional situation was going on, I made it worse. So I would run away and hide in like, wherever it was, but I distanced myself from them because I believed and I truly believed this, that if I was out the way, that probably would go away. But that just made it worse because they thought I didn't care and I had no empathy and I was just being selfish and that couldn't be further from the truth. And it's a huge stereotype, which
00:38:02
Speaker
again, has a big impact on the whole infertilization and also it links back into the untentional gaslighting. It makes relationships quite difficult.
00:38:20
Speaker
I think it's good that we've kind of chatted a lot about what it can look like and perhaps a little bit more about the specifics of what it might look like for autistic people. I suppose, do you have anything, any aspects that you think autistic people show that might make us a lot more prone to gaslighting? Hmm. This is my processing stint. Look a bit like Mr. Burt.
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah. I was going to say, yeah. Okay. Got it. So I think one of the main parts is obviously we're very vulnerable and we do misread situations and we do shut down. But also I think it's partly how we process information. So I think autistic people process information in like a fact first manner. So everything is processed as a fact first.
00:39:19
Speaker
And then if we've got the capability, we then can process like the emotional, the emotions and the memory and the logic that sort of ties in with that fact. So it's for things like this, just so it makes a bit more sense. Like if someone wants to say, oh, it's raining cats and dogs, like my
00:39:39
Speaker
I will process that as fact and be looking out the window for the cats and dogs because I haven't yet processed the logic and the emotional memories to be like, nah, that's not possible. Well, not anymore now that we don't have thatched roofs or whatever. But I do think we do process things in a fact first manner. So.
00:40:00
Speaker
And the problem with that is that with these relationships, everyone around us is always right. Everyone else is the correct person. Everyone else is the right model. We're always taught to be invalidated and to be ashamed of who we are and that we should change no matter what.
00:40:18
Speaker
And part of it is also the justice seeking. We want to change and be good because that's part of our brain. Like everything has to be processed fact first as a justice sort of way. And this does mean that anyone who wants to take advantage of us more or less can, because we're processing their behavior and their mistreatment of us as a fact. This is something that should happen.
00:40:43
Speaker
like this is okay and I deserve it, but also I'm just as seeking to make it a reality. And because we get shut down at the fact processing stage, we don't always process the next bit with the emotions, the logic, and the memories of past experiences that could otherwise teach us that this fact isn't right.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense. It's not kind of how I process it in my brain. No, it's, um, I think like the way that I think about it's a bit kind of different. Like I, I kind of.
00:41:22
Speaker
I take on board what people say to me directly, and I don't always compare that to the way that they're saying the thing or the context of the situation. And if I'm in a relationship where I trust another person, then I feel strongly towards another person.
00:41:44
Speaker
It's more likely that I'll take on board what people tell me than I won't. There's been lots of situations as well that happen to a lot of autistic people in terms of
00:42:00
Speaker
bullying or difficult situations at school and having lots of memories of not really understanding social situations and saying the right thing or doing the right thing within friendships and relationships and school life. And I think sometimes that combination of us really focusing on the direct language
00:42:25
Speaker
it allows us to be manipulated a bit more easily. And at the same time, we're less likely to take what we think and what we feel as seriously because of the past bias, the past kind of experiences that we've had. We've been taught to invalidate every feeling or thought that we've ever had because we've always been taught they're wrong anyway. So why would we believe our own thoughts that are like, hey, this isn't right? What you said was what I was trying to say.
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think I think there's there's also the aspects of, um, Alexa Feimier as well that can complicate things because like if you say something and you, you, you believe that it's right, like if someone sort of disregards that and, and either intentionally or unintentionally gaslights you into thinking that it isn't, um,
00:43:25
Speaker
You don't necessarily have the immediate emotional response of being able to put a boundary in place and say, like, no, don't tell me what I thought. I know what I thought. You don't necessarily have that. And it's more of a thing where you kind of just go along with it and then you kind of think about it in a week or a few days and you're like, hmm.
00:43:50
Speaker
No, I didn't feel too good about that situation. I felt like they weren't really listening to me. And then you go back and like flips over. Whoa. Sorry. It's totally true though. It's no, I forgot what I was going to say. Sorry. Sorry about that. Yeah. So.
00:44:17
Speaker
Well, when you come back and when you try to approach something that happened before, that kind of seemed to be something that both parties agreed on, people don't tend to respond very well to that. So, you know, sometimes when you come back after a couple of days, a few weeks and say, actually, hey, this wasn't right. And, you know, you try to put that boundary in place after the fact, it's not always the easiest thing to do.
00:44:44
Speaker
And it's that background processing because it takes such a long time sometimes. Yeah. And I feel that's what I was sort of talking about earlier, that mind wandering stimulation, like music therapy and art therapy and sort of daydreaming. It sort of helps us with those background processes. It's not always just problems that we're solving in like real time, but it can be the experiences that we had with relationships where we sort of
00:45:12
Speaker
or social situations where we know something wasn't quite right, that we don't have a quite process what it is and what boundaries to set, if any. And it takes a long time because there's always such, there's like a chronic overwhelm when you are autistic. It's complicated.
00:45:33
Speaker
And it's not to mention the mental health difficulties that we can have around anxiety. Anxiety makes you question yourself anyway. So it's when you're so anxious and when you're feeling down about yourself, you might be depressed or something.
00:45:50
Speaker
someone comes up to you and says, hey, this isn't actually the reality of things. You're more likely to go like, yeah, actually, my head's all over the place. I actually don't know. I'm so dysregulated. I think that's another aspect that can make us feel a bit more or be a bit more vulnerable to that thing.
00:46:11
Speaker
It's so true because I'm always the first to be like, oh no, I'm 100% in the room. Even if I probably wasn't and didn't have anything to do with me, I always assume that I'm the person who did the wrong thing and said the wrong thing. And I will always be the one who.
00:46:26
Speaker
agonise over it and try and work out why. And it'll just stay with me for months, years, eternity. She's always processing it. And that is partly why it makes me very vulnerable to this sort of, like, the mate crimes and the unintentional gaslighting, because I can't always tell.
00:46:47
Speaker
Well that's an interesting part because I know that make crime is something that a lot of autistic people might experience.
Mate Crime and Red Flags
00:46:56
Speaker
Just as a baseline for people who don't understand what make crime is, it's basically when an autistic or neurotypical individual befriends an autistic person or
00:47:12
Speaker
starts dating an autistic person with the intention of using and manipulating someone for money, for any kind of romantic intimacy type thing, or to do with giving them access to their property and their spaces.
00:47:35
Speaker
And it's something that a lot of autistic people can be quite vulnerable to because of the statistics around loneliness, isolation, that a lot of us experience. So with that, I mean, do you have much experience with this, Julie? Like, do you think that there's any aspect to
00:48:01
Speaker
I guess what we're talking about that make us more vulnerable. Yeah, so yeah, mate crime is similar to a hate crime in that it's also illegal and it is punishable by the law, but it is something that's really hard to sort of pinpoint and actually take action because, well, it's complicated. So like a mate crime is the grooming of autistic, autistic or disabled, elderly, otherwise vulnerable people.
00:48:28
Speaker
befriending them with the intention of manipulating them for personal gain and that can be like physical sexual emotion. You put it better than me. But yeah, because it is complicated, it's very difficult to spot but it's even harder to report.
00:48:46
Speaker
Say like, yeah, a mate could sort of borrow possessions and like never give them back or they could convince you to lend them money and they have no intention of paying you back. They could, you could be like, oh, I've been paid and suddenly you're doing a pub crawl and you're paying for everything because they conveniently forgot they're part of purse or whatever. Or it could be,
00:49:07
Speaker
more sinister. And the thing is, it often starts small because they're testing your boundaries to how much they can take advantage of you. So it will seem like nothing's happening. And then suddenly, it's like they're taking advantage of you, like, maybe like not all cases, but maybe with like sexual favors, or they're moving the relationship on too quickly than that what is actually comfortable, but they're sort of coercing and pressuring your consent to make you feel like it was actually your idea when
00:49:37
Speaker
It wasn't. And because, you know, pressured consent is not true consent and coerced consent isn't consent. And it's very hard to process that when you're autistic and your consent is so routinely trampled anyway in terms of like unintentional gaslighting where we're taught to sort of mold our consent into whatever people see or see fit like. Yeah.
00:50:05
Speaker
Like I'm not consenting to masking all the time or making eye contact, but I don't feel like I've got a choice and that's not true consent, you know? And it's a similar thing for make crime. Like I'm not, I wouldn't ordinarily be consenting to this sort of treatment, but I don't realize it's happening because it's so, so slow and it builds up.
00:50:27
Speaker
And also, like you said, the whole loneliness thing, the isolation factor, we are so happy to have friends. Like, when it happened to me, I was there, like, grinning all the time, like, I have friends, finally. Why do I feel so alone? So isolated? Why do I feel like I don't actually have any friends? And it's because I didn't.
00:50:50
Speaker
I was scared, I was alone, I was isolated, but they trick you into thinking that actually this is the best thing ever and you'd be lost without them. But of course you'd be much better off without them. Yeah. So yeah, I've experienced it. I think the way that I could probably add to that is
00:51:16
Speaker
It's always been things related to work for me, like with neurotypicals that I've worked with. That tends to be the case, but it doesn't tend to be quite overt in that way. It tends to be kind of like a lack of respect or a lack of respect of my autonomy.
00:51:42
Speaker
where in relationships that have that aspect to it. So I remember lots of times where I've put a lot of effort and a lot of time and a lot of everything into a certain project and they've kind of just kept expecting me to put more and more of my time into it.
00:52:08
Speaker
And then when I kind of turn back and say, you know, this is, you know, you're not really respecting my time and this wasn't agreed to and things like that, they kind of brush under the rug or, you know, they may not
00:52:26
Speaker
value exactly and take seriously any issues that I might have as it's you know something that some you know an autistic man who doesn't understand the situation is being like so I've had that happen to me in that sense and then perhaps some instances where I was at school and people had befriended me or
00:52:54
Speaker
got into a romantic relationship but not really and just used me as kind of like a sense of humor like to make fun of and that's part of it like they're all like mates will often use your autism against you and they will take advantage of you they will push those boundaries and it will be for personal gain and that can also look like laughing at you because you're autistic and
00:53:20
Speaker
and sort of putting you in those situations that make you like shut down or melt down. And then they'll be like, ha ha ha, look at the weird autistic person. And it's just, it's not nice. And that's often how it starts and if it's allowed to continue. And sometimes it is because we don't realize it's happening, which is so grateful to our friends. Yeah, it can, it can get worse. It can get a lot worse.
00:53:46
Speaker
Ay up, just popping on to say thank you for listening to this podcast thus far. If you could do me a real solid, please make sure to rate the podcast if you're in a podcasting streaming service and do all that like, subscribe, comment stuff on YouTube. Damn, even send a heart in the comments if you don't feel like typing.
00:54:06
Speaker
Make sure to check out my link tree, which is always down below in the description or head over to my Instagram page at Thomas Henley UK for daily blogs, podcast updates and weekly lives. This podcast is sponsored by my favorite noise cancelling noise reducing earbuds that you can adjust the volume on. Really, really great thing. They're called D buds and you can find the affiliate link down in the description of this podcast. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast. That's all from me.
00:54:37
Speaker
Well we talked about kind of like gaslighting and why we may be a bit more prone to it some of the things that I guess might be more applicable to autistic people as well as talking a little bit about mate crime which is I think something that
00:54:52
Speaker
needs to be talked about a lot more and it's definitely reflective of the the negative experiences that we have with the world you know perhaps if we had a lot more of a good social emotional education for for us and also for our peers at school then these types of things wouldn't happen so much and we had some good kind of post 18 support social support
00:55:20
Speaker
And that would be something that I feel would help a lot in those situations. Or even just being aware of these kind of behaviours that we might come across. And that would be really valuable in my opinion. I need an actual checklist of it so I know it's going to be good.
00:55:39
Speaker
There's lots of things that we need to change. But I guess in terms of like the practical kind of takeaway things that we could think about for individuals who may be struggling to, I guess, identify whether someone's not being particularly good and upfront and kind towards you and
00:56:05
Speaker
what in situations where you know perhaps they are they are good for you and that stuff so it'd be good to talk about like the group the reading kind of green flags for relationships and i do have some of my own but um i think it'd be cool to talk about the kind of like the red flags like what what um red flags do you find in relationships when you just start them and how do how do you go about identifying those
00:56:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think a big red flag, like we mentioned, is when they use your autism and your differences against you. Like, their attitude might change really quickly and they will switch back to being nice with no effort if they think it will control you in a way that gets them what they want. Like, they'll be mean to control you to get what they want, but they would switch on the nice the moment they think
00:56:59
Speaker
you you're like threatening to leave or they think that they're going to lose control of you and if you leave they lose control of you so they will switch on the charm and they will love bomb you until you're back in their arms metaphorically or physically and yeah but they were used out your autism against you so they could
00:57:23
Speaker
Yeah, they could put you in situations of like loud noises, even though they know that you're really struggling with sensory issues and then they might blame you for the fallout or they might invalidate it or shame you. And if you ever made a little mistake or a misunderstanding in a social situation, they will never let you forget it. It will be brought up time and time again until fraternity. And it will just
00:57:53
Speaker
if you needed help with something. And, you know, they're really great and they're really helpful, but they're now holding it over your head. And it's now sort of not a word, not a scapegoat. They're using it as a reason to coerce you into something else. Like, I did this really helpful thing for you. You should do this for me. And that's not how consent works.
00:58:19
Speaker
And it's also not very respectful of boundaries. So that's a big red flag too. I'd say that if I could add something that perhaps, you know, kind of one of the big red flags that has come up with any relationships that I've had that haven't been too good is
00:58:40
Speaker
that they kind of give an air of understanding about what autism is and what you experience without actually knowing or asking what you like and what you experience. It's kind of like they feel like they've already understood the whole autism thing. You don't need to ask any questions. It can often come across as quite like
00:59:05
Speaker
She's like, oh, hey, this person understands me. I don't have to make any effort to help them understand, but it tends to be very like stereotypical and it tends to be very like, yeah, well, they're not necessarily listening to who you are and what you experience. They understand autism in general, but they're not making any effort to understand you as an individual. And that is also a red, black, yeah. A hundred percent.
00:59:37
Speaker
But even just in general, I think, you know, if they're working like social care, if they're like a teacher or they work with charities or they work for parents and they feel like they've got it all sussed out and they just don't have that kind of natural curiosity in who you are, I think that's definitely a red flag because you are at risk of kind of being stereotyped by them.
01:00:08
Speaker
I think also a red flag could be when they sort of, they put you on a pedestal and they think you're so wonderful and you're perfect in every way and there can't be any conflicts, there can't be any, you know, they've rushed you off your feet, there's a world with robots and everything's perfect and we should get married next week and all of that silly stuff. But it's, you know, I think that's a red flag because, well, there's many reasons actually, if you're put on a pedestal,
01:00:37
Speaker
very much similar to what you were just saying. They have an idea of you and they're not willing to change it in favor of what their ego needs and what they're wounded in a child needs from their past. They need to believe that you are the perfect person because they can't handle it if you're not. And that means that they're not actually listening to you, they're not understanding you, they're not
01:01:02
Speaker
they're not willing to admit that anything is wrong. And that also means that there's no conflict either. And I know that sounds strange, but every healthy relationship has conflict. There's always arguments. The difference is how we learn how to healthy argue and communicate in a healthy way. So like if you're pretending there's no issues and that person's on a pedestal, you're just sweeping everything under the rug, you're not listening to their needs.
01:01:31
Speaker
it's not particularly healthy. And sometimes it's a defence mode. We're so traumatised maybe from past experiences that we don't want to be hurt and we avoid the conflict. I mean, it makes sense, it's understandable. And some of these red flags can even be just shameless. Some people have red flags because they haven't been taught how to handle their
01:01:59
Speaker
their emotions and their trauma and communicate in a healthy way. And that's not necessarily their fault. So I think there's red flags for unhealthy relationships, but there's also toxic, toxic red flags. So this one has hope, the red flags where people actively, they want to try and improve, they want, and they're aware that there's a learning journey and they need to try and listen and communicate and health, healthily learn how to improve. But this one,
01:02:27
Speaker
It's all about the intention. This one, the toxic traits. They have no intention of improving. They are literally just there to manipulate you and control you and to feeding their own ego so they can feel better about themselves. And I think it's really important to establish which one is which.
01:02:49
Speaker
I kind of feel like to a certain degree saying that autistic people are like perfect and these kind of angelic benevolent creatures like... I think to some degree
01:03:05
Speaker
Like, I understand that it's like a reactionary kind of approach to the ideas that people have put out in the past about us being unempathic and being, you know, perhaps not understanding in social situations and stuff, but it still is to a certain degree infantilizing.
01:03:26
Speaker
And as you said, you know, if people have this kind of pedestalized idea about what you're like, and they don't really, I guess, take on board what you say or aspects to your personality that are true to you, then at some point they're going to become like, how do you say, annoyed at you that you don't meet this pedestalized expectation. It's impossible to really
01:03:55
Speaker
realistically need it, no matter what you do, because it's not real. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But also, I think what you said about sort of the pedestal thing, a lot of people put autistic people on a pedestal in terms of like our seven abilities or whatever. And I think that's got plays a part in it too, because for so long, autistic people were treated really badly.
01:04:26
Speaker
And, you know, we were dehumanized and we were invalidated. We were seen as worthless and barely even human. And that's horrific, horrific. And advocates like us in the past would be like, hey, autistic people are just like you, but they have gifts and they have quirks and they're servants and they have all of these wonderful, good things about them. So humanize them. You know, they're real, they're human. And I think that
01:04:52
Speaker
has held on to a lot of people today. And it's not their fault, just what society has taught them. But people also put autistic people on a pedestal. If they're not that servant, they're not real and they're not worthy of respect. And I think that's partly... I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, sorry. But it's partly why I see my disability as a gift. I'm autistic,
01:05:19
Speaker
but I don't have any of these seven abilities. I'm not the person that autistic advocates of the past would point to and be like, hey, this is, you know, I was diagnosed at two, like I didn't learn to speak until I was eight and all of this other stuff. Like I'm definitely autistic and my disability impacts me so severely. Like I can't always walk or talk and you know, all these things. So,
01:05:45
Speaker
then while that's really hard, that's the real reality. It doesn't take away my humanity and it doesn't take away my quirks. It doesn't take away my me being a worthwhile, like a worthy person of good things. And I think we need to remove that pedestal because of that. Because we can still be, like there's no reason aside from ableism why, in my eyes, why autism can't also be a disability and a gift.
01:06:15
Speaker
And I think people in order to learn to understand autism and autistic people better, especially in romantic relationships from its school, we do need to learn to understand those hidden depths and those hardships to be like, to humanize us and validate every part of what makes us tick so that we can be like, yes, we understand how to help them without unintentionally gaslighting them. And yeah, bit of a tangent.
01:06:42
Speaker
I think the train sort of went, whoa, sorry. I don't know if that was relevant. I think also a big red flag is probably aspects around expectations, because if someone does something for you and then they expect you to be sort of amenable to what they want you to do, or they expect you to repay the favour like every single time,
01:07:10
Speaker
I feel like that's the red flag because in life and in relationships, as you were talking about having 16 of the 106 life skills or something, I can't remember. There's gonna be undoubtedly some things that my partner will have to do in order to help me with what my needs are.
01:07:37
Speaker
and I can help in different other situations but I think when people have done things and then expected a specific way of behaving around them or a specific outcome that it's become difficult in that sense like it's almost like expected of me like I help you with this stuff so you do what I say or you do these things you help me with this you know and not necessarily something that comes from me
01:08:07
Speaker
it's very manipulative. And it's also, yeah, it pushes the boundaries as a matter of, it sort of coerces your consent, because that expectation is that you've got to do the thing that they're asking you of, you to do because they were like, Oh, like, I was so hopeful and they use it against you. And that can
01:08:26
Speaker
That sort of thing, it could also drive a wedge between actual healthy members, good people that you know. It could drive a wedge because they can see these red flags and they try to communicate it with you. And I suppose another red flag is that the person who's toxic will try to drive that wedge and they will make it bigger between you and the healthy people.
01:08:49
Speaker
will try to cut you off from your support network and gaslight you so that you believe that they're right, the toxic person's right and the healthy people who are trying to help you, like genuinely trying to help you, they're wrong and they don't understand you and only the toxic person understands you and that wedge gets even bigger.
01:09:10
Speaker
and especially when it's so obvious that all these red flags are happening and they're trying to help you. The wedge, it's like a little ocean, you can't jump, you swim back. Yeah. Definitely. Now I understand that. I think it's something that...
01:09:27
Speaker
I've experienced as well. Um, you know, I, I would, I'd say that perhaps another aspects to it is if, um, the person is very over willing almost to a point which it's crossing your boundaries to, um, help you with life and things like,
01:09:54
Speaker
you know perhaps coming around and supporting you when you haven't asked it or doing certain things for you when you haven't asked them to and you know like over time sort of diminishing your ability to look after yourself because of you know
01:10:12
Speaker
they've filled in certain aspects to your life and independent living that you feel okay with managing yourself but they've kind of taken over everything and you know there's that kind of element of control on their part and if you say that it's not something that you want and something that it makes you feel bad and you actually really want to do it yourself it's like oh well I've been helping you out that's a bit ungrateful and you know
01:10:43
Speaker
There's a certain amount of, it's not quite, but nearly learned helplessness because they are doing everything for you all the time. And they're controlling all the aspects that you think you could probably do, but they're like, nah.
01:10:57
Speaker
Like, I'm going to do it all for you. And then, because they do it, it's something that you didn't want them to do. Yes. They then tell you to do something that you don't want to do. Yeah. It's really weird. And you kind of just go with it because it's just, you know, like, well, I guess they did help me with this certain thing. I probably should do that. Do I want to? No. Did I want them to help me in the first place? No, not really. And it seems, it seems very innocent.
01:11:27
Speaker
And that's the problem with red flags, because a lot of it can seem really innocent. And I suppose it's then delving into the psychological sort of the intention behind their behaviours, and sort of understanding that actions speak louder than words, like apologising and saying, Oh, it's so difficult.
01:11:49
Speaker
Especially when you're a direct communicator. It breaks your heart, doesn't it? Just to realise that people are lying to you. Straight to your face. Don't think there's anything else.
01:12:12
Speaker
I think those, those are definitely the ones that I would put forward because I know you can, you can think of like any, we can think of loads and loads of different things that are probably not good ideas and relationships and you know, probably could be considered not a positive sign, but I think just by the nature of how relationships are, it can always be very difficult to give those kind of definitive ideas or things. It's so complicated.
01:12:43
Speaker
Working out the intentions behind all of these little things, it's a constant guessing game, and it takes so long to process. Well, life's very complicated in itself sometimes. I'm overwhelmed with a million things going on.
01:12:59
Speaker
don't know my disability or my illness or like work or like just like with everyone. Like there's so much going on like the processing of healthy relationships and what's actually going on it sometimes it goes on the back burner because you're just trying to survive the day. We're just trying to get through all of the stress and the strain of general adult living because being an adult is difficult. Never I do. Like, honestly, I wouldn't change it. But
01:13:28
Speaker
Maybe that's part of it too, because if you feel like you want to change your partner, maybe that's the red flag too, in the sense that maybe they're not treating you right. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? No, I do. I get them to understand you better or to take you seriously. I think that could be something.
01:13:52
Speaker
I think a lot of the things that we said that I think they're very applicable to kind of the like of the autistic experience of these red flags because I feel now as I said we could talk about a lot of the different red flags in situations like you know someone who just lets you monologue and lets you tell them all of your intimate details about your life and then doesn't provide any of theirs
01:14:17
Speaker
you know, doesn't put a boundary and say like, you know, this is not, you know, this is too much for me or, you know. So we could talk about like the, I guess, the normal red flags, but I think it would be really cool to talk about perhaps some of like the green flags of things, a bit of a contrast.
01:14:39
Speaker
Do you know of any green flags in a potential healthy friendship or relationship?
Green Flags in Relationships
01:14:50
Speaker
So sort of spiraling from what I was saying earlier, like if you think you want to change someone, I think also like the feelings inside that make you want to do that. So like if you've got, if you're calm inside, like there's no adrenaline,
01:15:08
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? The media has sort of twisted all of our perceptions of what healthy love looks like, especially when you first meet. And they're like, oh, you should have butterflies in your tummy. You should feel all excited. Your heart should be pounding. And I think, actually, that's not quite true. I think if you have calmness inside and you feel at home and you feel safe with them, then that's a far better response.
01:15:35
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's a far better response because the butterflies and the heart thumping, that's an adrenaline response. That's your past self saying, hey, there's a, there's a warning and you need, you know, your past self, I forgot what I was saying. It's okay. No, no, I got what you mean. It's, um,
01:15:57
Speaker
I think there is a very heavy emphasis on this kind of rollercoaster of emotions and adventure. Oncoaster. Style of communication. Yes. Or style of having a relationship.
01:16:18
Speaker
which I know it can be something that is exciting and it plays on your mind and you know it's up and down and it can be good and then it's bad and there's all these different circumstances that really draw you into that person or that relationship and I think that's something that both men and women do or non-binary individuals do
01:16:41
Speaker
It is something that I feel draws a lot of us in. And I also think it's kind of this big kind of lie that our brain enforces that if we don't feel that kind of
01:16:58
Speaker
somewhat strain or difficulty within a relationship then it's not worth pursuing or it's not it's not right or it doesn't feel right to like just feel like able to talk to someone and feel feel open to talk to somebody um you know it's it's it's interesting i mean like people people nowadays they get
01:17:22
Speaker
They get like turned off by people who are very direct in how they feel about people, like how they feel about you.
01:17:33
Speaker
You know, I think you're nice and I just want to let you know I do like you and it would be cool to do something. People don't like that. It's got to be this kind of weird indirect like game that you've got to play of like, oh, I sort of like you, but maybe not too much. You've got to fight and you've got to convince me. But I think that's another really like a
01:17:54
Speaker
A green flag is that a relationship might actually feel boring because if you grew up associating love with violence or shaming, drama, arguments, even if they were good intentions and good efforts, you grew up learning how to love on that survival mode. It's not your fault, but it does mean that love that looks and feels calm, that is direct and emotionally regulated can be so boring.
01:18:21
Speaker
that you confuse this as something bad because it's not matching the love that you are taught to be real. You know, like extreme fighting, shouting, throwing objects, sudden declarations of hate and hating each other. You know, you can feel like passion and care, but because the emotions are so strong, but it's not real, like extreme highs and lows of insecure relationships can bring excitement or feelings of passion. And, you know, it is easy to mistake those feelings.
01:18:51
Speaker
for the strength of healthy love. And that's a problem because being with someone who you can depend on, someone who is straightforward and direct, someone you can trust with your whole being, it will feel a bit boring at times because that unpredictability isn't there. Your adrenaline is not firing all over the place, wondering why you're walking on eggshells or whatever.
01:19:16
Speaker
And it's so easy if you're not getting that in a, in a healthy relationship to be like, Oh, I just go on online or download an app. Like I'll go find this excitement somewhere else. So like, it's just, it's such, such, such, so much of an easier thing to do if you're not feeling stimulated enough in a, in a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. People will find other ways to seek it out, I guess. Yeah.
01:19:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny because I have quite a few female friends and they tell me about their dating life and relationships and stuff. And almost always, if they go with the people who don't kind of
01:19:57
Speaker
provide them this kind of roller coaster of this emotion and stuff. They actually find that over the long term, it's a really sort of happy kind of fulfilling relationship. It's not like this crazy roller coaster kind of passionate journey, but you know, relationships are not about that really. It's
01:20:22
Speaker
about finding someone who meets your needs and is willing to compromise on your needs and you're willing to compromise on their needs. It's funny because the idea of love, it's very much like a self-sacrificing kind of
01:20:41
Speaker
defeatist emotion. And like, you know, like, you know, love is best expressed when you are giving up being around that person for that other person's own benefit. Like that's, you know, it's got a completely feeling
01:21:00
Speaker
you know, happy, happy for the person and having the best that the person's best intentions are. And it's not always conducive to what a relationship is, which is, you know, it might might sound cold of me to say, but it is like it's, you know, you are
01:21:19
Speaker
crafting something that's kind of like an agreement or like a somewhat set of rules and somewhat things that you help them with and things that you help them with they help you with rather. And I think part of it is also that like the green flag that if things do go wrong you can and even if there are some unhealthy little things that you might shout at each other or you might not listen straight away but
01:21:46
Speaker
I think the green flag is the intention and the recovery afterwards. If there's good intentions, even though they're screaming at you, they still love you, and they're still going to treat you kindly, and they're still going to respect your boundaries, but also that recovery afterwards, they're not going to have such an ego or whatever that they don't apologize. You know that apology will be sincere, and they will mean it, and they have all the good intentions there.
01:22:17
Speaker
And also, like you sort of said, sort of spiraling off the excitement bit, is that the emotional regulation also needs to be challenged too, in the sense that the media has this idea of what love is. People think that they need to meet someone and that person is going to fix all of their problems.
01:22:40
Speaker
Like that person is responsible for their happiness and their emotional growth. And that's not true. Like that's still. Yeah. And it's, um, and it's, you know, we need to, we need to look after our own emotional health and learn how to challenge ourselves and learn how to communicate properly so that we can treat them better.
01:23:05
Speaker
And they need to do the same so they can treat us better. And it's both of us knowing that so that we can... Fry. I forgot what I was saying. No, no, no, it's great. I mean, I would also add that, you know, that there are some key like personality kind of traits or ways of communicating that I think is helpful.
Non-Reactivity in Conflicts
01:23:30
Speaker
There's a green flag in a relationship because
01:23:34
Speaker
So, like, non-reactivity is one that I feel is quite important because... It's one I'm really bad at, but I try. In any neurodiverse relationship, there will always be some element of miscommunication, particularly when it comes to confrontational or emotional things. And if your first reaction is to blow everything out of proportion and, like,
01:24:03
Speaker
You know, if, if, if this person is someone to be like, Oh, Hey, actually, you know, did you mean that in that way? Or you, you kind of, could you explain that in a different way? Or, you know, there's, there's less of that, the flick, the flick in the switch and just going.
01:24:19
Speaker
That's exactly it. Like crazy, crazy at limits. It's taking a step back and saying like, oh, actually, is this something that is just a miscommunication? And quite often it is because, you know, if someone, two people have the best intentions for each other, it's, you know. Yeah, me. Sorry, have you finished? Yeah, yeah, go for it. Me a year ago.
01:24:41
Speaker
not a year ago, like a decade ago, you know, I argued completely differently and I would get very reactive and I would assume things that weren't right. And, you know, I was young and I think we all do that to some extent. And I think the main thing is that consciously, like while you're in the midst of arguing, you have to consciously be like, this person might not intend the bad thing that I'm assuming. I need to get their actual intentions to be like,
01:25:11
Speaker
When you say this, what do you actually mean? Then you need to like openly communicate and it's taking a breather so that you're not actually screaming at them and doing all of that emotional reactivity stuff. And I do think if you are very, if you understand, you know, your partner's good intentions and you validate them, it
01:25:35
Speaker
What's it called? Diffuses the tension and it makes, you know, because once you both feel heard and understood, you know, like that person's talking and you're not there sort of boiling and sort of knowing exactly what you're going to say.
01:25:48
Speaker
moment they stop talking, like they're talking, you listen, they stop talking, you think of what you're going to say. Yeah. So that you know that it aligns with your values and what you love about your partner, like, and getting to that stage of not responding while they're talking, not thinking of your answer, you know. And it's also it's like, we need to sort of get out of the habit of fighting to win and fighting to prove a point. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
01:26:18
Speaker
And I think me a decade ago wasn't so good at that. And I think a lot of people, a lot of people will have a phone, not many of us will admit it. And I think if there is that good intention that people want to grow, there is no shame in that because we all have these trauma, you know, defense modes from gaslighting, from being growing up and having to panic explain everything because you're autistic and no one understands what you're, anything about you and you know,
01:26:47
Speaker
And it's all understandable and there's no shame. I do think we do need to adapt to a growth mindset where we are actively trying to
01:26:58
Speaker
step back, breathe, understand, then approach, like rather than, ah, I'm sorry. And then it's almost like, you know, it's, it's definitely that aspect of non-reactivity and being able to talk about things and get over miscommunications is pretty much the make and break in a lot of friendships and relationships that I've had because
01:27:23
Speaker
It is a common thing. And some people do it right for a while and then they forget that you're autistic or forget that you're different and you have different communication styles and then it becomes an issue. And in times of high stress, that defense mechanism comes back and you end up going back to that self. So it was a very conscious, very conscious decision every time something happens that you need to push back the defense mechanism, not shaming yourself, not shaming them.
01:27:54
Speaker
I just realised that I interrupted you, I'm so sorry.
01:27:57
Speaker
no no it's fine i think another aspect for me would be you know like we had that aspect when i was talking about you know just because they think that they understand autism isn't necessarily like a good thing if they haven't understood you personally i think having a natural curiosity in you or autism in general is always going to be good because there is a lot of
01:28:26
Speaker
There is a big communication and empathy barrier between you and that person. And if they have the curiosity to explore that with you, I think that tends to be quite productive, green flaggy kind of thing. If they're genuinely interested in what you're about and how you think and feel and perceive.
01:28:48
Speaker
open mindedness, I'd say could could also be part in part there. Like, are they willing to take on board your experiences with with an open mind and not, you know, be able to kind of try and put themselves in your shoes? And are you able to do that with them? Like, I think that that's that could definitely be a green flag as well.
01:29:16
Speaker
I don't think there's anything else that I could could really say. I mean, if you just generally feel calm and then we feel quite stable, you don't need to be chasing this idea of happiness. But if you are content and you're calm and you're stable and you feel valued and you feel like sort of you feel respected and you feel like safe.
01:29:41
Speaker
Safe yeah, um I'd say that that's that's a pretty pretty good green flag. Although it can now as we said not always be the most exciting passionate kind of Adventary journey kind of thing But who would want that it's exhausting at some point you're gonna get exhausted by it and people do it's like
01:30:06
Speaker
I suppose it's also like recognizing that no relationship is perfect and like comparison to other relationships will not help anyone. If you're trying to be like, I don't know, what are they called? It's like an Instagram like model or whatever. If you're trying to be like their relationship, it's just simply going to cause more problems because again, it's that pedestal, isn't it?
01:30:30
Speaker
You need to listen to your partner's boundaries and understand their story and what you were just saying. You need to learn about them and want to
01:30:41
Speaker
you can't have an Instagrammer's wedding or wherever because it has nothing to do with you and your partner. You have to tailor it. It's always tailored and it's like the whole thing about you don't see the athletes in training you and you see them on the podium. You don't see their failures, you just see the success that they had. That's a really good point because every failure can help you learn how to grow together if it's a healthy relationship with good intentions.
01:31:09
Speaker
Because a lot of relationships will be a little bit red flaggy and it does make it complicated. But if you can certain the intention behind it, like we were talking about. Oh my gosh, I totally forgot what I was saying. No. No, I understand what you mean. What were you saying? I think the difficulty for me is like the intention can be like
01:31:37
Speaker
hard to figure out sometimes when
Recognizing Red Flags
01:31:39
Speaker
you're autistic. I guess people can say what their intentions are. You know, as you said, like, as much as you can, you have to look at.
01:31:49
Speaker
the long run, like you have to look at situations or relationships and kind of like a zoomed out approach, like is these perhaps red flaggy toxic behaviors just kind of a drop in the ocean or do they seem to be like existent at many sort of different parts during the relationship or how often is your adrenaline firing up? How often are you feeling like sick or jittery or
01:32:19
Speaker
in pain or poorly, like it's all part and parcel of it sometimes. Even when your emotions don't know or your mind might not know that your body might. And listening to your body is a very good way to ascertain those red flags. Because if something's not feeling right and you feel disrespected, your body will tell you.
01:32:43
Speaker
It's true. It's true. Or, okay, so if you're like, so if I make it, I might tell you a few days or a week or so later. Yeah, I was about to say that. Making that connection. And then you can have the fun conversation where you send a long, long, long, long, long message after saying that it's okay, that it's actually not okay, which is always fun. If you relate to that.
01:33:12
Speaker
Oh my god. Well, it's been really great to talk about these things and I feel like we've gone over a lot of both personal and informational based things and hopefully for anyone listening they will have a
01:33:28
Speaker
a bit more of an idea of what to look for and what to avoid and you know finding a healthy kind of stable relationship as an autistic person. As I said and as we have said throughout this is not like a wholesome a holistic guide to everything to do with relationships. A lot of times it's very individual, it's very
01:33:51
Speaker
it's hard to pick up on, it's not necessarily something and usually the best way to understand it is to work for it with a professional or someone who has, who can actually talk to you about your individual experiences. But I feel like we've gone through some good stuff, Julie. Good. Well,
01:34:18
Speaker
Do you have, you know, we're kind of rounding up at the end of the podcast now. Do you have any like social medias, links, websites, things that people can go to? So I do know the answer, I promise. Me accessing the answer. Yes, it's been a long part. We've been chatting for like an hour and a half and
01:34:45
Speaker
The half an hour before that, we were trying to set off the audio. So it's, you know, my brain is also a bit fried at the moment. So yeah. Okay. I got it. I am My Autistic Wings. So you can find me on www.myautisticwings.co.uk.
01:35:08
Speaker
Oh gosh, how do you spell it? M-Y-A-U-T-I-S-T-I-C-W-I-N-G-S. I hope I spelled that right. I'm usually really into spelling. Well, it will be down in the description. So, you know, I think we'll be good.
01:35:30
Speaker
But yeah, you can find me. I'm publishing a book later this year and actually a lot of what we talked about today, I wrote a whole chapter on relationships and sort of the societal and people's impact on autistic people. And yeah. What's your book called?
01:35:48
Speaker
at My Autistic Wings. Yeah, some brands. Yeah, it's all about, it's an empowering and educational autism resource book, partly autobiographical. And it's very cool. Yeah, it's a sort of the follow up from my first book, Asfudge World, which was all about childhood to teenagers. And this one is teenage to adulthood, sort of the transitions, independence training, working career and lots of
01:36:17
Speaker
funny little stories of me being a bit strange. Yeah, I'm really, I'm so excited. I'm so looking forward to it. Like I was really blessed that my first book helped so many people and I was, you know, that was my dream. That was one of the first things you asked me, you know, what did you do before you started speaking? And that's what I was doing. I was writing my book. I was writing my book. I was diagnosed as autistic at two years old. I found out when I was 13.
01:36:46
Speaker
because that's when I processed, I was different to other people. And when my parents told me at 13 years old, I read every book out there and there was nothing from a female perspective that was positive, that was empowering. And I basically wrote the book that I desperately needed and I've done the same again for the second book. So fingers crossed it helps people because that's my dream. That's my dream, yeah.
01:37:15
Speaker
Awesome. Awesome. And if you have enjoyed this episode of the 4200 Podcast, make sure to like, subscribe, rate it. If you could be so kind over on any of the podcasts and streaming services. If you want to check out some more stuff about how my life is going and the things that I go up to, maybe you want to check out my daily blogs over on Instagram.
01:37:42
Speaker
That is at Thomas Handley UK. And if you want to get in touch, there is always a link tree down below with all of my links. Podcast clips, coaching, my website, things like that. They're all down there. So yeah. Jolie, do you have a song of the day? Do you have a song that means something to you that you could
01:38:11
Speaker
that you could give that either means something related to the podcast or something that you particularly like at the moment. Oh my goodness, I feel really daft because I prepped for this interview a lot and I've got pages of notes in front of me. I kind of forgot about this song. It's okay, it's okay. I think you might have put it in your... I'm a huge, huge music lover, but I find it so hard to just pick one song.
01:38:39
Speaker
One song, but at the moment I am really liking Madeline Bailey's cover of Flowers by Miley Cyrus, which is unusual because I don't usually like that sort of pop music, but I like Madeline Bailey's covers of things. So Madeline Bailey's. That's kind of on topic because it's about relationships, I guess.
Compliments and Playlist
01:39:01
Speaker
Madeline Bailey's. She's a very pretty lady.
01:39:05
Speaker
She's really nice, yeah. Awesome. That is added to the 40 audio song of the day playlist, which is always down in the description, right at the bottom if you want to go check that out. And I've got one last question for you, Gerli. Have you enjoyed your 40 audio experience? I have. It's been brilliant. It's really good to discuss these things and
01:39:29
Speaker
with another like-minded person, which doesn't happen often. So yeah, I've had a great time. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been an honor. Awesome.
Host and Guest Reconnect
01:39:41
Speaker
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on, Julie, after so long. I think it's been like a few years, a couple of years since we first met each other and we're only just getting into doing the episodes, so it's cool. I think it was June or something. Yeah.
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
01:39:59
Speaker
Well, I'm going to do like an outro sequence and just don't click off the call because it has to like process and stuff at the end. So when we say bye, don't click off. Someone's done that before and it's like really nerve recording. Can you say in the chat when I can click off?
01:40:24
Speaker
Oh no, I'll end the recording and then you can chat and I'll let you know when it's done. So I hope you have enjoyed this episode of the 4TOD podcast. Make sure to tune in next week.
01:40:40
Speaker
where we talk about another autism, neurodiversity related subjects. Usually Monday, 1 p.m. over on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and about 5 p.m. over on YouTube. So, hope you have a good day, hope you have a good week, and I'll see you in another episode of the 4080 podcast. See you later, guys.