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Autistic People Have Lost Hope In Life
421 Plays2 years ago
Why do 6 in 10 Autistic people contemplate taking their life? Why is mental illness so prevalent in Autistic people? What are Thomas' and Hina's experience with mental illness?
TW: Mental health, bullying, ED, SH, and SUI
Hina is a UK-based community support officer who is currently working on a creative SUI prevention project, coproduced with Autistic adults and seeking to shed light on the experiences of Autistic people. Within the episode, she shares her experiences with contamination OCD, mental illness, ED, and SUI.
My Links - https://linktr.ee/thomashenleyUK // SUI Prevention Hotlines - https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/327007
Dbud Noise Cancelling Adjustable Ear Buds (20% Off with code: THOUGHTYAUTI) - https://dbud.io/thoughtyautipodcast
Thomas Henley (host) kicks off the episode with a heavy disclaimer and an overview of a Nottingham University Study (2017) showing that:
8 in 10 - Almost 8 in 10 autistic adults have a mental health condition
6 in 10 - More than 6 in 10 autistic people have considered SUI
3 in 10 - More than 3 in 10 autistic adults have attempted SUI
Thomas highlights that statistics like these are easily accessible, but the mainstream media are not disseminating this crucial information on the life quality of Autistic people. He theorises that this may be due to the assumption that Autism inherently carries a lower quality of life with it, which may be a barrier to understanding the disability as a consequence of uninclusive systems or negative life experiences.
In the conversation about higher rates of mental illness among Autistic individuals, Hina starts by underscoring the contribution of misdiagnosis, lack of diagnosis, and autistic masking as key contributors to mental illness. Thomas explains how the negative life experiences around such things as bullying and isolation can impact the development of depression through the HPA axis.
Thomas and Hina share their own personal experiences with mental health, isolation, ED, SH, and SUI in an effort to destigmatise speaking out about the tipping points of mental illness. Going from adolescence to adulthood, they spotlight their lowest points in their mental health journey, drawing attention to the impact of an insufficient mental health system on Autistic people's outcomes.
Speaking on the positive effects of support, they highlight the problems and benefits of anti-depressant medication on their mental health, the importance of family and friends in building a strong support network, and how autism education helped them conceptualise and deal with their mental illness much more effectively.
Lastly, they touch on the stigma around SUI being selfish, mental illness being a personality trait, and the stigma of mental illness in men. Thomas speaks on the 'Andrew Tate mentality' that a lot of men have around mental health, and how strength is shown more through acknowledging your feelings rather than hiding them and pretending they don't exist.
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Transcript
Introduction and Trigger Warning
00:00:07
Speaker
Good day, and welcome back to another episode of the 4Dyoti podcast with your host, Mr. Thomas Henley, of course. Today, I've got a bit of a different episode for you, and I just want to put a very heavy trigger warning. At the start of this, we're going to be talking about a lot of the very dark stuff of life, dark stuff of mental health. We're talking about autism and suicide, which is, you know,
00:00:35
Speaker
it's obviously going to be an episode where we sort of dive into our own personal experiences with it. So if you do feel that you're not in a state, that you will be able to be okay with listening to this, I would highly advise checking out one of the other episodes that I have on the podcast. But I really think that due to the nature of the statistics around autism, suicide and mental health, I think it's a really important episode to at least
00:01:04
Speaker
talk about that kind of stuff for the people who may need it, or at least to give some awareness to the mainstream around these very worrying statistics in the autistic community.
Mental Health in Autism: Study Insights
00:01:16
Speaker
So before we get into introducing
00:01:19
Speaker
our guest I do want to cover one of the more recent studies that was published by Autistica which is a UK based autism organization and they have some some pretty up-to-date stats as far as I can find it was one that was done in 2017 I'm sure there's some that have been done a bit later but I do have personal links with Autistica and I know that they you know produce some quite high quality stuff
00:01:49
Speaker
So this Autisticus study found that almost 8 in 10 autistic people have a diagnosed mental health condition, which is quite astonishing. That can be anything from anxiety to depression to all the other kind of things that that would cover.
00:02:08
Speaker
there's also quite a worrying statistic around thinking about suicide about six in ten people so it's more than half it's more likely that autistic people would consider suicide there's also a very concerning statistic around three in ten autistic people autistic adults have attempted suicide there are some statistics around sort of more younger life
00:02:36
Speaker
childhood experiences but I don't think it's something that I want to go into much because I know even for me you know it's something that I talk about and it's something that I've experienced but even for me it was it was quite hard to read some of the stats around that.
Meeting Hina: Shared Advocacy
00:02:52
Speaker
So now we set a bit of a basis to why we are doing this podcast and a little bit of a disclaimer. I went to give a bit of a background to my guest, Hina, who I met during a conference during like a public speaking events in Birmingham. It's called the EDA conference and it was funded by the Commonwealth games. It was a opportunity for a lot of autistic individuals to come and speak.
00:03:19
Speaker
and deliver presentations and talk to different policy makers to try and make some systemic change in the way that we deal with emotional regulation, mental health, things of that nature. So it was a really, really great event. And Hina came up to me noticing me from Instagram, which was one of the first times that that's happened. So I was very buzzed about it. I was like, hey,
00:03:42
Speaker
It says, you know, people are recognising the outside of Instagram and we got a picture. We had a call more recently chatted about possibly making this episode. And here we are. So, Hina, how are you doing?
Hina's Autism Discovery Journey
00:03:57
Speaker
I'm doing very well. Thank you, Thomas. I'm excited to be on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Well, would you like to give
00:04:06
Speaker
a little bit of a background into, you know, when you were, when you were diagnosed and, and I suppose how you sort of got involved in the autistic community and what kind of stuff that you do on a daily. Yeah. So, um, my name's Hina. I'm 25 and I work as a community engagement officer in a daily basis. Um, so finding out, well,
00:04:34
Speaker
discovering that I was autistic I didn't actually figure it out by myself it was my younger sister because
00:04:40
Speaker
She's a speech and language therapist. And she said to me one day, yeah, she said to me, she was like, I think you might be autistic. And I was like, really? Like, do you actually think that? And she was like, yeah. And when she told me about it, I was like, oh, actually, a lot of that makes sense to me. And I can relate to many of the things that you're talking to me about. So a lot of the behavioral traits and
00:05:05
Speaker
sensory processing things that I just thought was typical and everyone else experienced. But people don't. You just for some reason can't tolerate it for something that's a personality trait. Because that's what I thought. I was like, maybe I'm just weak. Maybe I just can't handle these emotions and these sensory experiences as much as other people.
00:05:32
Speaker
that's literally what I used to think because I used to just cry out of nowhere and my dad blessing me and being like why are you crying and I'd say I don't know I'm just crying and I don't know why and he said well if you don't know why you can stop and I was like I can't but there was a reason I think it was just like
00:05:49
Speaker
feeling sensitively overload and just super overwhelmed really with life. And then my sister, she motivated me to go to the doctors, which I was very hesitant to do because, as you know, it's not an easy process. It adds a lot of stigma attached to it as well.
00:06:09
Speaker
that I finally got the courage to do it and I went and ever since I've actually been on the waiting list I'm referred by my doctor for nearly two years now I think so yeah it's a long process yeah it's a long process but another thing is I went to a suicide prevention conference as part of work that was held at
00:06:35
Speaker
The University of Wolverhampton and I met a colleague that I work with now called David Stocks.
00:06:42
Speaker
and he is a suicide prevention need in the community. And he does a lot of work based around autism because he's also recently been diagnosed around like a year ago as autistic and he's in his fifties. So he does a lot of work with the autistic community and we're working on an autism and suicide prevention project in work.
Creative Expressions in Suicide Prevention
00:07:07
Speaker
So that's really exciting. That's amazing. What kind of
00:07:12
Speaker
I don't know how much you're allowed to divulge, but what would that kind of entail? Like, is it more of like a like a document thing or is it like education for like different authorities or organizations or is it more like a like an internal program to support individuals? I would say it's a very creative project. So the main focus is
00:07:39
Speaker
going to be involving people with lived experience of autism, designing the project and also taking part in it. So the main thing that we're going to do is we're going to use cameras to take pictures and to reflect
00:07:56
Speaker
emotions that autistic people feel and just things that people feel attracted to. Like, yeah, I relate to that. And then afterwards, we will also be writing some poetry or short sentences or words to reflect the images. And then the end goal is to have
00:08:14
Speaker
four exhibitions separately. So four of the boroughs in the West Midlands. So that should be exciting. And then everyone can see it and be like, ooh, look at this cool project. Thank you.
00:08:30
Speaker
That's really cool. It actually brings brings me brings to mind like one individual that I had a pre-chat with. We still haven't got around sorting out sort of doing the podcast but they do. They're called Sousa Fine Arts and they
00:08:49
Speaker
communicate online mostly through self-portraiture. And they do something quite similar to that, like around a very, very cool quirky person. But they do those self-portraits, and it's based on everyday life events that happen, everyday feelings that they experience. And they try and capture that with their own self-portraiture.
00:09:16
Speaker
so they might they might be quite a cool person to link up with if you're doing that that project they're neurodiverse themselves so thank you yeah well i know we've talked a little bit about the statistics around mental health autism and suicide it's obviously like massive issue and the amount of coverage that it has in
00:09:41
Speaker
the mainstream media is just absolutely ridiculously low considering how, you know, out there solid the statistics have been over there over the course of 20 years. It's very much something that is happening and something that affects a lot of people who are autistic.
Factors in Autistic Mental Health Challenges
00:10:01
Speaker
So, I suppose given those mental health statistics, if we were to talk mostly about mental health at the start, why do you think autistic people are more prone to these mental health conditions? Personally, I think the reason that autistic people are more prone to mental health conditions is due to a lack of diagnosis
00:10:22
Speaker
at a younger age, so wait in until your adult to be diagnosed because then presenting with a lot of autistic traits can be confused for other illnesses or like other diagnosis. BPD, both of you now. Bipolar schizophrenia even. Exactly.
00:10:43
Speaker
I don't know if it's because of like a lack of education or awareness in the mental health system itself. I don't know. But I definitely think that's a really big factor, especially then people becoming misdiagnosed as well. Because I was misdiagnosed as well. I've been misdiagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. And it might be a part of me, you know, it might be part of the autism. But
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, it was just like a component of there is a like a component of autism. That's like quite obsessive and I know. Yeah, I know that there's my friend and Nick Ransom is like this guy who works for the BBC. He
00:11:28
Speaker
He worked with Chris Packham on that documentary that has become quite popular. Yeah, he's quite in there in the mainstream media. And he does a lot of stuff around autism and things like that. It's really cool. But he struggles with OCD and things like that. Particularly around people and relationships for some reason. He has what he terms relationship OCD. It's a very
00:11:59
Speaker
old podcast. It was in like season one, probably like episode 14. So that was quite a while ago. But yeah, why I think there is like some some crossovers with that. I would also say like, you know, from misdiagnosis and things like that.
00:12:20
Speaker
women and people of backgrounds that are not white, I think are more likely to be misdiagnosed. Yeah, yeah. Well, I need to be misdiagnosed and undiagnosed. I definitely agree with you. Being Asian myself, I'm the woman.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think it's also because women are much better at masking or I don't know if they're better. They just feel like they should mask. I don't know because I definitely did mask a lot in my youth if I look back because I didn't know how I was supposed to act. I had no clue. So I used to just pick up on other people's behaviors and tone of voice and the way that they would interact.
00:13:08
Speaker
so that I could fit in. And I actually think that is another part of like why autistic people are more prone to mental health conditions because we're like expected to fit into like this mold, like everyone else. And I always like think of it and describe it as like being neurodivergent in a world that's like designed for neurotypicals. So it's really just, I don't know how we're supposed to be comfortable
00:13:37
Speaker
enough to be ourselves in a place that doesn't make us feel able to be, so yeah. And it is quite a protective thing, isn't it? Because, you know, there are situations, particularly in secondary school or high school over in the US, that present a lot of real world dangers or real world stresses like bullying and, you know,
00:14:02
Speaker
if you kind of stick out and people notice that and people sort of take advantage of you, perhaps not understanding like the higher cognitive like social situations that are going on, then they do take advantage of you.
Understanding Masking in Autism
00:14:18
Speaker
So there is like that aspect to it, even in the workplace, I would say.
00:14:25
Speaker
I know for me, I didn't really used to mask very much, but I definitely used to have some mirroring behaviors. There'd been lots of situations when I was younger and I was introduced to someone from a different part of the UK, like Scotland, and I'd start just naturally mimicking their accent.
00:14:48
Speaker
And obviously they were like, oh, what's happening there? And the parents are like looking and asking, why is your child doing this? For me, it was it was a way of. Relating to that person, making them feel like that they're safer to be around me. I understand, like looking back on it, that it's not ideal. And to be honest, even within my podcast, if if you kind of look back at the different guests that I have on the way that I interact with people,
00:15:19
Speaker
the way that I speak, like the tonality of my voice, it tends to very much mimic the person that I'm talking to. And it's not like a natural process. It's not like I'm thinking, right, I need to do this and this. It's just kind of like a learnt thing. I don't know. It's interesting, isn't it? And masking, I think just in general, can have some really bad effects on your identity as a person. It can feel very hard to feel like you're being genuine.
00:15:48
Speaker
It can take a really big toll on your overall energy. It can really make you look more anxious and aware and paranoid in social situations. It's something that I only really started to do when I was in my early twenties. I started to realize that the people around me
00:16:11
Speaker
They were having a much better time in terms of making friends, forming groups at university, and also finding a partner. And those things were areas of my life that I wanted to work on quite a lot at that age. And it started to mimic and mask and copy people online who seem to have that life to them, to have that aspect of their personality to make those friends.
00:16:40
Speaker
But when I did, it always just felt very false and it didn't feel like I was connecting deeply with other people, which I think is another really big aspect of mental health, that social element. I agree with you completely. I definitely personally experienced
00:17:02
Speaker
this like feeling of I didn't know who I was and I didn't know who I was supposed to be so he used to constantly like wonder what my identity was and I think that identity is like always evolving anyway
00:17:17
Speaker
But there is definitely some parts of yourself that are more solid. And I just didn't know because I was constantly presenting as typical, I guess. Yeah. Like passing, passing as neurotypical. Yeah. And I was really good at it. But now, and it was so tiring. It was so tiring. I used to be exhausted.
00:17:40
Speaker
after the end of the day like after school in secondary school and then also in the workplace as well like you mentioned and I experienced a lot of stigma in the workplace which made me feel really unsafe because the reasonable adjustments that were
00:17:58
Speaker
supposed to be put in place, weren't put in place. Instead I was just, yeah, instead I was meant to just. And those are like bare bones as well anyway. Exactly. So I was really like worried and anxious and stressed every time I went to work, but I've been trying to educate the workplace on autism and neurodivergent so that they can be more understanding and accommodating the people's needs.
00:18:24
Speaker
Sure. Well, that's great. I'd say that like another aspect of autism and mental health, I mean, just from like the scientific perspective of how things like depression develop.
00:18:41
Speaker
like a lot of it tends to occur due to either long-term chronic pain or long-term emotional pain which kind of in builds this sort of catastrophizing, doom and gloom sort of attitude to life or at least I had for me and this is all based around this idea of the HPA axis which is
00:19:08
Speaker
Oh, what's it called? There's a pituitary gland, which is the P. There's adrenal gland, which is the A. And then there's the H, which is the hypothalamus.
00:19:24
Speaker
And there's this weird sort of feedback mechanism with all of
HPA Axis: Anxiety and Brain Changes
00:19:28
Speaker
these kind of things. And when you are chronically anxious for a long period of time, it can kind of have these different physical changes in your brain, which can make you more prone to developing things like depression and having that anxiety for a longer period of time.
00:19:46
Speaker
So that's kind of like the scientific sort of idea of it. And if you think about the lives of autistic people, you know, we're constantly bombarded with sensory, social stresses, a lot of negative life situations, particularly for women, I would say, around being sort of manipulated or abused in different ways.
00:20:11
Speaker
And so it kind of makes sense to me why we tend to develop these quite severe mental health conditions, even at a young age. I think there's another aspect of life that seems to be quite
00:20:26
Speaker
important to touch on which is like the life the overall life quality statistics that we might have as autistic people. We tend to find it very hard to find a job, a long-term job and feeling happy within that job and you know feeling safe.
00:20:44
Speaker
There's also the aspect of isolation, which is very, very apparent, even going up to individuals who are in their 50s, 60s, 70s who haven't really had the supports that we might have had growing up on that level of acceptance and adjustments in place, even though it's not perfect.
00:21:05
Speaker
up until, you know, even nowadays, things like social media, the online spaces, general support after school, that sort of transition to adulthood is, you know, there's so many aspects to someone's life quality that prevents us from
00:21:25
Speaker
fully being included and happy socially and in society which you know it can't be undermined just how how much that can affect people's mental health you know you hear about a lot about this concept called atomization which seems to be going on which is like
00:21:44
Speaker
the splitting off of social groups where a lot of people are in their own house, in their own space, but a lot of their friends are all over the place. They might be into online gaming or be very into social media, so all of their friends are dotted around the country or the world. And so there's not that immediate social structure that can support them, which can be an issue, I think.
00:22:13
Speaker
I agree with you and I actually have a lot of friends who are tied around the world.
Online Communities: A Global Connection
00:22:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's insane, but they're like some of the best people that I know and some of the best people in my life through online gaming and online platforms and interacting. I find it also unlike posts, for example, that I follow on Instagram and surrounding autism, ADHD, neurodivergence and mental health.
00:22:43
Speaker
and
00:22:44
Speaker
I usually comment on the post if I feel like I relate to it. And then I feel like you can meet people that way too and just, you know, common ground. Yeah. The good thing about, I suppose the good thing about the online spaces is that you can find a lot of autistic people. Whereas if you go outside and you try and meet new people, it's very hard to find them sometimes. And it's not like, it's not like you have a big autism sign above your head.
00:23:14
Speaker
I'm autistic. Be friends with me. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because I tend to very much attract and make friends with a lot of neurodivergent people. Just not even by going to seek them out. Me too. It just seems to happen. And also I definitely feel like
00:23:36
Speaker
I connect better with other neurodivergent people and communicating with them is so much easier than communicating with neurotypicals.
00:23:46
Speaker
yeah and i suppose it doesn't necessarily have to be like autistic or ADHD individuals that you meet i think it's just someone who has experienced a different side of life kind of gives them that perspective to understand or want to understand other people's like different sides of life like if i'm just thinking of individuals you know there's
00:24:11
Speaker
I don't think there's anybody that I know that doesn't have something different about them in some way.
00:24:17
Speaker
Indeed, I agree. But that's what makes us so special, because everyone's different and everyone's unique. And it's wonderful. Oh, I also, I do think as well, communicating with other neurodiverse people is easier because maybe we've created our own understanding of neurodiverse social cues that make sense to us. I don't know. Perhaps.
00:24:47
Speaker
I definitely think I have my own way of communicating and I'm very like before I would be very much stressed about trying to fit into a certain model of communicating and socializing. Whereas nowadays I'm very much like, you know, I'm just going to communicate as I, as I do. And if it feels a bit weird for you, then cool. Let's not be friends. Yeah. I agree. I agree with you.
00:25:14
Speaker
that's I suppose that's one of the you know it can be one of the hard bits about like unmasking is because although you are becoming your more authentic self and you are displaying yourself to the world and you're feeling more authentic and in how you do that
00:25:31
Speaker
it does also present issues when it comes to fitting in and it can sometimes make it harder to find people to be friends with and it can also if you've massed for a long time and you have that those kind of social groups and you start to unmask then it can sometimes lead to you losing friends or you know people making weird comments like you're more autistic nowadays or you know why are you leaning so much into the label and things like that
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah, it really frustrates me. Well, the people that we're more authentic around are those who make us feel like we can be because they're comfortable and we feel safe with them. So if we are masking, it's generally because we don't feel like we can be our authentic self with people. But yeah. Definitely.
00:26:26
Speaker
Well, we talked a little bit about the prevalence of mental health and why it may happen for a lot of autistic people. There are also different cross-sections between groups and different aspects of an autistic life that can make
00:26:47
Speaker
mental health conditions more apparent, just from looking at things like even the coping mechanisms around addiction, alcohol and different various use of drugs. It's very prevalent for autistic people. And I am at some point going to be sort of diving into an episode where I can talk more in depth on things like alexithymia,
00:27:15
Speaker
I suppose like one of the key aspects of...
00:27:19
Speaker
doing this podcast is to get a bit more sort of personal on things because it's all well and good to kind of postulate like the theories behind it but I know for a lot of people it can be really hard to find or it was particularly hard for me to find resources and people talking about subjects that are quite hard to hear and subjects that they do hit quite personally but it was definitely something that I wanted to find when I was in the peak of my mental health conditions
00:27:49
Speaker
So I guess, what are your experiences with mental health and suicidal ideation?
Hina's Mental Health and Suicidal Thoughts
00:27:59
Speaker
I will give my experiences as well, but please go ahead. Okay, cool. So my experiences, I think I've been from quite a young age. When I was in secondary school, I experienced a lot of
00:28:16
Speaker
suicidal thoughts and suicidal ideation. And I think it was generally because life just felt like a lot and way too much for me to handle. And I just wanted a way out, like an easy way out. And I know suicide is not easy, but it feels like it would be easier than just staying trapped in society, in the world. That's making you feel like crap. And I think another thing that fed into
00:28:46
Speaker
my thoughts and feelings was some of my personal childhood experiences, which I won't go into, but I think that definitely played a part as well. And from the age of 16, I remember, was when I first entered mental health services and mental health support. So that was through cams. I think... Oh, me too. Yeah.
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah, you know that comes in. I think it's Child and Adult Mental Health Services. I think that's what that acronym stands for. I think that sounds right. Thank you. I did well. Yeah, so that's where I first got support, but it wasn't like for depression or anxiety specifically, although I was struggling heavily with that. It was for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
00:29:38
Speaker
which I think developed as a result of coexisting mental illness but was also a component of autism. So it was all related and I didn't have a clue because I couldn't regulate my emotions and my feelings and
00:29:58
Speaker
I was just trying my best to stay alive and in a way that OCD kept me alive, if that even makes sense, because it gave me a way of like, I don't know. You have like the rituals and things that kind of focused you in.
00:30:14
Speaker
Yeah. So I was like, if I do this, then I won't feel like this. So if I do that, then this won't happen. But if I think about it, like, if you think about it objectively, it's, it's not like, it's not going to happen like that. It doesn't work like that. But it makes you feel better. And I think a lot of it is to do with, for me, was to do with a lack of control and having, having these like rich ones and
00:30:43
Speaker
thoughts and things that I used to do really helped me to just pull that into perspective and feel like I was in control of something. If I wasn't in control of my mind or my emotions, I was in control of everything in my external environment. But although it did help, it kind of destroyed my life as well. It took it over a lot because I used to spend a very long time in the shower
00:31:09
Speaker
because the OCD that I had was contamination OCD. Right, right. It was quite debilitating. That must have been really, I don't know if it's something that you experienced, but that must have been really hard sort of during COVID and things like that. Was that?
00:31:26
Speaker
It was hard but it wasn't as difficult because thankfully the brunt of that was during my youth, I think during my late secondary school years and college years. So during college I remember this is another thing because when you're autistic you like things to go to plan. But things didn't go to plan so I went to college and it took me about an hour and a bit to get there and the same amount of time back.
00:31:56
Speaker
But because I had to complete all my rituals and shower and do all these things before I left the house, I would end up being like an hour or two late to college because I wasn't able to feel in control of things before I left, if that makes sense. It was a very stressful time. Well, I know that.
00:32:22
Speaker
you know, my personal experiences with mental health services like CAMS was, you know, I appreciated that that kind of service was there.
Thomas's CAMS Experience and Alexithymia
00:32:32
Speaker
But it wasn't, I don't know if it is probably a combination of the two, but I wasn't entirely willing to sort of engage with the process.
00:32:43
Speaker
And a lot of the things that were suggested to me more along came the lines of these like set things and processes to go through when I'm feeling a certain emotion. So I would get lots of different sheets and methods and ways to deal with anxiety and panic and meltdowns. But a lot of those ways that those sort of mechanisms for dealing with my mental health
00:33:13
Speaker
Tended to be require you to first know that you are feeling a certain way and during my teenage hood around that sort of 1314 age where where I got diagnosed with depression and anxiety.
00:33:32
Speaker
I didn't I was like deep into my alexophimic haze. Like I just didn't know what was going on at all. I felt so separated from my emotional brain that I felt like it was a different person. Like I had this kind of split in my brain. And so it was it was really hard to manage mental health because of that.
00:33:56
Speaker
And I also found it really difficult to connect with the people that I was speaking to and to really emphasize the severity of the emotions that I felt around my indirect communication. I was very, very flat affect when I was younger. I hardly had any facial expressions. I didn't have a lot of vocal tonality at all. I was very monotone.
00:34:26
Speaker
It didn't really help me in terms of, I guess, emphasizing the level of, you know, depression that I was feeling at that time, which was very sort of intense. I had a lot of experiences growing up around sort of bullying, online harassment,
00:34:50
Speaker
social isolation, rumours, things like that, which really fed into my anxiety. I was very paranoid about every stage of my day, whether it was getting on the bus, I had some bullies on there, whether it was during lunchtime, had some bullies there, during classes, in some classes even. And a lot of the time was from me was spent trying to
00:35:19
Speaker
avoid those situations, avoid those people. But I just couldn't, and over time I developed these mental health conditions, the most prevalent ones at the time, other than that quite severe anxiety and depression was dissociation.
00:35:39
Speaker
which, you know, I now know is one of the brain's defense mechanisms to sort of shield you from feeling emotional distress and pain in the instant. A lot of depersonalization, just not feeling like you are real. A lot of realization, feeling like life isn't real.
00:36:00
Speaker
And they developed a lot of weird ways of coping and understanding my own differences in comparison to other people. I developed some like heavy delusions about me being some otherworldly creature with a greater purpose and you know,
00:36:19
Speaker
feeling like i was this this kind of einstein who you know i looked at other people other kids sort of acting in the way that he did but being very emotional being very like driven instantaneously to things and i was like kind of looking at them like i was living in a zoo
00:36:37
Speaker
And the only places I really felt safe and heard was when I was talking to adults, who I felt kind of gave me the space to talk and were interested in what I was saying. And, you know, for other time, the reason why Cams picked me up
00:36:59
Speaker
was because the people around me started to notice that I had some quite severe self-harming behaviour on my wrists. I used to go to school wearing like a really long cheap bandage. I used to wear that cheap bandage even when I was swimming.
00:37:20
Speaker
I was kind of going through like a very heavy emo phase around that time. So I wore a lot of wristbands if I wasn't wearing that bandage to kind of cover them up.
00:37:32
Speaker
and you know it generally got worse over time up until probably the age of 17 I tried to take my life a couple of times first through medication and the second time through cutting and I had to go to ER to get stitches and
00:37:57
Speaker
I had a lot of sort of supports around me in terms of sort of monitoring my medication, making sure that I didn't have access to methods to do that. A lot of the time it was, you know, it was after school.
00:38:14
Speaker
I even sort of got to a point where my self-esteem was just so crushed by my experiences that I started developing things like bulimia.
Turning Points: Achievements and Self-Esteem
00:38:27
Speaker
And I became bulimic and I started to binge and purge because I just wasn't happy with how I looked, who I was. I tried to offset my social difficulties by having a good body, which obviously didn't work.
00:38:44
Speaker
There was a lot of things, I think, you know, on the way which, you know, the combination of my environment, how I was feeling about myself and also the supports not really being effective for me. All of those things sort of culminated in
00:39:04
Speaker
a very, very existential nihilistic view of the world, which followed me even into my early twenties. There was a point at which I started, you know, lots of points where I started to change things around. I was, you know, focused on getting to university and I got into the place I wanted to get in, doing biomedical sciences at Manchester, which was a really big achievement for me.
00:39:29
Speaker
And I also climbed quite highly in terms of Taekwondo, in terms of being an athlete. I competed for GB at a couple of events and I kind of leaned on that as a way for me to sort of build my own self-esteem up.
00:39:46
Speaker
as you know, you know, receiving awards and receiving congratulations and attention for that kind of thing. It's very limited in its like long term effectiveness for dealing with that. It has to be a lot, you know, looking back, it's obviously very internal, but just having these goals in my mind really kept me going sort of during those times. Sorry, I had this monologue for like ages, didn't I?
00:40:12
Speaker
Jesus. No, it's good. It's all about personal experience. So yeah.
00:40:20
Speaker
You've said about depersonalization. I experienced that for the first time actually, around two years ago, which was around the time that I, well, it was my second time being suicidal and attempting suicide. So my first suicide attempt was also an overdose of my antidepressants.
00:40:47
Speaker
it didn't work. And that must have been like, hard, like, so much. I mean, I've accidentally took and taken like a double dose of mighty depressants before and it was so anxiety provoking. It was horrendous. I remember like, I was literally just
00:41:08
Speaker
crying and I felt like a massive haze. I didn't understand what was going on and then yeah I think I told my my mum and I was like don't shout at me or get mad at me but this is what I did and I was crying and she was like what? And then I just went to hospital and then everything was okay because I didn't take enough to like damage anything or like kill myself so
00:41:33
Speaker
I was still there and I'm happy I'm still here and I'm still there but then about like two years ago I became increasingly unwell.
00:41:46
Speaker
And I actually went off of my antidepressants during COVID, which was probably not an ideal time, but I felt okay. I felt fine. And I said to my doctor, I'd really like to get off of my film, like I will be okay. So I went off then, but then the pressures of my personal life and university and COVID all just merged together into this big, like,
00:42:12
Speaker
massive brick wall that just fell on top of me and I tried and I tried to just like cope I guess that I wasn't coping and what really hit it all off me was going back to study face to face at university because I studied at Leeds Beckett University which is like a good three hours away from where I live so um yeah and I remember saying um
00:42:41
Speaker
I don't want to go, I'd rather just finish it at home.
University Struggles Amid COVID-19
00:42:44
Speaker
Because I knew in my gut I shouldn't go, but everyone kept saying to me and I know it was out of their best interests that, you know, it'd be good for you, you should do it, it's the last year, you'll have a good time. Some stereotypical advice. Exactly, I didn't listen to myself and I shouldn't. And then I took everyone's advice, I moved back to uni and by
00:43:04
Speaker
Two months later in October, I was done. I was already really depressed, really ill, and I was just crying. I got even worse. I was really anxious.
00:43:17
Speaker
and increasingly suicidal, like I would have probably ended my life if I stayed there. So I remember coming home in like November for the last time before I didn't go back after that and my grandma also passed away at the time. Just a lot of things happened, many things and there was a lot of grief
00:43:40
Speaker
and then I felt bad because I was unwell during the time that everyone was meant to be grieving so I felt like a complete burden because of that as well. That's a really sort of key part of it isn't it because when you have mental health conditions it's
00:43:59
Speaker
you know it's obvious it's an illness and it does you know it's not just a mental psychological thing it changes the chemistry of your brain and even to some degree like the physicality of it over the long term
00:44:15
Speaker
And it's hard when you're feeling so bad and you're looking over people's lives where there's things, you know, objectively horrible, negative things that are happening to other people. And then you kind of look at yourself and you're like, oh, why am I feeling so bad about where I am now? Like I've got so many good things going for me. There's no reason that I should feel like this.
00:44:43
Speaker
you give yourself a really hard time about it as well, don't you? Definitely agree. I tend to put a lot of pressure on ourselves. I definitely do. Not feeling like I'm good enough. I always had an innate feeling that I was never good enough and I'll never be good enough. And lots of self-doubt as well, so I struggle a lot with that.
00:45:09
Speaker
And my dissertation, for example, I couldn't complete it and I completed everything else from my final year. So I couldn't graduate with my honours and then through my positive recovery from an eating disorder.
00:45:24
Speaker
mental illness and general suicidal thoughts and feelings. I managed to complete it which is really good which means I can now graduate with my honours and it was like I had to carry on as a continuing student for a year more but I'll be graduating this year and I'm happy.
00:45:42
Speaker
But yeah, thank you. I do remember though, because I went into a mental health hospital. Like a psychiatric inpatient thing. Sort of, yeah, for mentally unstable people.
00:46:03
Speaker
But luckily, I wasn't admitting. So I went in there, but I was like assessed and I was there for like a whole day. And then I remember just saying, I don't want to be here. I'm not going to be here. I'm not staying here. And I was like, I want to go home. And they deemed me unfit to go home. But because I had so much familial support around me, they let me go home. Good, good. Thank God, because I don't think I would have been OK.
00:46:33
Speaker
So I'm just looking back at like the event, the EDA event, like there's so many people talking about just horrific experiences that they had in psychiatric inpatient, even with, um, I think you might've seen, uh, Lauren Bridges story. Yeah. Like, uh, she's talking about, wait, I forgot the right name. I'm just checking. No problem.
00:46:58
Speaker
Now, Lauren Bridges' story about being in inpatient units, her mother, Lindsay Bridges, was talking about that sort of experience, and they went to courts and stuff, and even though they got approved that this hospital wasn't fit for her, they still wouldn't let her out, and there was no accountability around it and stuff.
00:47:24
Speaker
I think it was like a cystic of about like 2000 people, 2000 autistic people being sort of in inpatient units in the UK, which is really concerning.
00:47:40
Speaker
it is yeah very disheartening as well because those conditions are not like are not good for autistic people and i think for the entirety that loverin was at that hospital they didn't have any therapy any supports or anything like that it was just lock them up and give them food and try and keep them safe but
00:48:03
Speaker
they didn't even do that job, which is the sort of tragic part of it. Yeah, exactly. It really is. It's heartbreaking because you're put into a place that's meant to keep you safe and secure and look after you, that if you really think about it, putting an autistic person in a place where they're not even supposed to be in the first place and not letting them leave or see their family, it's going to drive them
00:48:27
Speaker
do basically the end of like where they could be. So yeah, I'm very glad that I didn't have to stay in hospital.
00:48:40
Speaker
But yeah, I did have like nurses come out to me though, mental health nurses. And I went to all my doctor's appointments and dietitian and stuff like that, because I was literally skin and bones. I'm already petite as I am, but I lost a lot of weight and I've just managed to regain weight again, which I'm very happy about. Thank you. I was feeling quite down about it, but I couldn't make myself eat. I don't even know. I was on 40 deuce.
00:49:09
Speaker
for like a month and then like a long time afterwards. It's like a supplement of like nutrients and stuff. So those have 46 as well. So it like replenishes your body with things that you're not getting because you're not eating food.
00:49:26
Speaker
And because I was in such a bad state, I remember saying to my my parents, well, if I don't eat, then that means I don't have to take my medication. And that means I no longer have to be here. I don't have to be alive anymore. And then, like, that's a really horrible thing to say. But it's just how I was feeling. So
00:49:46
Speaker
I think a lot a lot a lot of my experiences particularly in early adulthood where it was kind of along those lines of like I I wasn't I was trying very hard not to like do something that would just end it but at the same time I wasn't taking care of myself with the purpose of
00:50:09
Speaker
you know, achieving something like that.
Isolation and Substance Use Crisis
00:50:12
Speaker
Like I would, you know, go to sleep each night, you know, hoping that I didn't wake up and I would start doing very silly, stupid things like crossing roads without looking. A lot of different things like that. To just to somewhat, you know,
00:50:35
Speaker
contribute to me not having a long life which you know obviously it's it's not something that that was effective or wanted or all good
00:50:51
Speaker
There was one situation which was kind of my resurgence of my mental health in my second year at university. It's actually the time that I met my best friend, Kate, who's really integral for me, you know, finding a support network and finding friends at university. She was also going through her own, you know, mental health stuff.
00:51:19
Speaker
We, I actually, it was a situation, I was living with someone that I lived in first year with and I was kind of getting to the point where this person was very
00:51:33
Speaker
They were kind of tired of me, like they cared about me but they were tired of me and it was, you know, I was in a situation where I hadn't gone outside for a couple of months other than to get very unhealthy snacks and food from like the local shop. I basically became like a hermit for like a portion of my life becoming
00:51:54
Speaker
Very paranoid very depressed, you know Having about five or six panic attacks a day, even though I wasn't outside or doing anything Binging purging a lot
00:52:10
Speaker
It was kind of a time that it culminated and before then, before I went to university and reached the age of 18, I was very against things like alcohol. But during those times I was sort of drinking quite a lot.
00:52:28
Speaker
in that second year. I used to like sit on my couch in the living room, so drinking alcohol and watching Rick and Morty, which was kind of like the first, because one of the first times that it came out, can't remember how long that was again. It was a while. But I got
00:52:49
Speaker
Yeah, it was great. And Bojack Holzman. And those were kind of my, the two shows that really struck a chord of me because I was.
00:53:00
Speaker
I always have been and always, you know, and I still am very existential in how I view life. And I had lots of different existential crises where I didn't think anything was real, was like that. A philosopher who kind of sat by and watched the world go and not really cared about himself and just, you know, thought that everything was an illusion. I was like that for a good few months.
00:53:28
Speaker
And it got to a point in which I drastically came off my medication. It's kind of a strange thing because it's not something that you can really put your finger on when you stop medication. It's more like a gradual build up of
00:53:53
Speaker
mental health I think one of the reasons why I stopped is because you know being on SSRIs you kind of SSRIs work by dampening your emotions they don't raise your overall happiness they don't like make the dips less like flatten out the dips and make you more positive it flattens it out from both sides
00:54:19
Speaker
And I just missed feeling happy and positive about things. And when I came off, when I have come off the medications, I had more instances where I could feel
00:54:33
Speaker
You know, generally more like myself, generally more happy, more positive and experience those, those highs of life. Um, but I also experienced a lot of the lows and equal measures and probably even more so, which led me to a point where I got into crisis mode. I was taking, I was on a medication of benzodiazepines called diazepam. How can I know?
00:55:04
Speaker
this is great for anxiety but i was on a very heavy regiment of it and so i had a lot of tablets and there was this point where i didn't feel safe and it was kind of this culminating thing and i'm not gonna lie you know i was scared about
00:55:24
Speaker
dying. I was scared about that but I was also at such a crisis point that I felt that it was less scary than continuing to go on with life.
00:55:38
Speaker
And so I drank a lot. I took a lot of these tablets and I sort of continued to do that over the course of a few hours. I got to a point where I was like, hey, look, I'm not in a good state. And so I took this self trip. I started walking around with my alcohol. I think there were beta blockers actually.
00:56:01
Speaker
and I started walking around taking these medications and drinking and I went to one of these crisis homes and that was my goal to admit me to this crisis home.
Hospital Visit: A Turning Point
00:56:17
Speaker
but this place was not open and so I continued walking around and going into the parks and just crying and getting upset and continuing down this rabbit hole and eventually I got home because I'd had all of the medication that I had and I went to get another one
00:56:37
Speaker
thankfully you know i talked to my friend Kate about it beforehand that i was not feeling in the best way and that i was feeling quite suicidal and she was worried about me and i wasn't replying to her so she called like the
00:56:56
Speaker
the flat services like the student accommodation services to come and check on me. It was at a point where it was kind of, you know, if I had continued in that state, I don't know what would happen. I can't imagine that it would have been good.
00:57:13
Speaker
and they took me to hospital it was a very long night i didn't sleep the entire night i was there with these white fluorescent lights and doctors trying to like hold me down to get like a blood blood sample to make sure i was okay
00:57:29
Speaker
and I remember sort of getting out in the morning probably about 7 or 8 a.m. and they gave me like a heavy dose of a natural benzo to sort of smooth out my anxiety from the nights and that was the experience and I was very annoyed at my friend Kate for a long time I was very like you know I could have done it then and I was you know I was sort of
00:57:57
Speaker
A bit, a bit like, you know, you taught this from me and, you know, I nearly did it. And it was something that, you know, I'd been thinking about for over 10 or 11 years. And this was kind of the, the breaking point. I was like, look, I'm not going to go any longer. And, and she stopped me. So I had to sort of process that in my own time, obviously looking back on things. I'm, I mean, eternally grateful to her.
00:58:28
Speaker
And I did have resurgence of mental health, but I think the turning point for everything was when my granddad passed, who I was very close to. He died of lung cancer. It was a very long process. And it happened when I was abroad in Thailand studying mosquitoes and doing research on them. And I couldn't go back to see him.
00:58:58
Speaker
I thought about that a lot and you know I kind of said to myself at that point that I wouldn't try again and I didn't and I had very much in my head all the time that I was you know ever since that that point where I was in second year at uni and in that situation you know that that was kind of a turning point for me and I realized that
00:59:25
Speaker
You know, although, you know, my pain wasn't alleviated and it wasn't going to go anywhere anytime soon, it was.
00:59:34
Speaker
I guess illuminating to me that all of these experiences after the fact were, you know, I wouldn't have known about it. I would never have experienced it and I've never have gone to Thailand and had all these crazy experiences. And I think just over time, refocusing myself on trying to support others who are going through the same thing was
00:59:59
Speaker
something that really meant a lot to me and it's kind of pulled me through a lot of difficult times that I still have with life. It's not, it's not like he's gone away. It's just, you know, over time my mindset's changed on it and the way that I manage it is, is, is a lot better than, than what it used to be. That was, that was my second experience with it. I haven't thankfully had any more like that.
01:00:28
Speaker
I'm glad to hear that you haven't had any war. Yeah, it sounds like it was a very difficult time to go for. I mean, it is. But I think, you know, looking back on it, people always think of these moments of being like, you know, in my head, it was kind of this movie movie like moment where, you know, life had got too hard for this autistic man and everything was going to end.
Stigma and Misconceptions About Suicide
01:00:54
Speaker
And when it didn't happen like that, I kind of
01:00:58
Speaker
you know, looked at myself and I was like, what the hell am I doing? And, you know, it's not going to go like that. I'm not going to make like headlines and people are going to talk about how awful this is and it's going to change the world or anything. I actually have to do things to make a difference rather than just do that. And that was quite illuminating for me. That makes sense. Well, um,
01:01:26
Speaker
Do you have anything else to add about your own experience? It's fine if not. I know that, again, I've just monologued for ages at you. No, it's fine, don't worry. It's all about talking about your own experience.
01:01:45
Speaker
And you're not just monologuing at me, it's everyone who's going to listen as well. So. Yeah. Sorry, everybody. That was like what I meant. Okay. So, you know. I know what you mean. I know.
01:01:58
Speaker
Ay up, just popping on to say thank you for listening to this podcast thus far. If you could do me a real solid, please make sure to rate the podcast if you're in a podcasting streaming service, and do all that like, subscribe, comment stuff on YouTube. Damn, even send a heart in the comments if you don't feel like typing.
01:02:18
Speaker
Make sure to check out my link tree, which is always down below in the description or head over to my Instagram page at Thomas Henley UK for daily blogs, podcast updates and weekly lives. This podcast is sponsored by my favorite noise cancelling noise reducing earbuds that you can adjust the volume on. Really, really great thing. They're called D buds and you can find the affiliate link down in the description of this podcast. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast. That's all from me.
01:02:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, I'd just say support is important, having good support around you. And I think that's what's definitely helped me and kept me going. I suppose we've talked about like the negative side of things, but you know, if we kind of shift away from sort of our personal experiences that might be, you know,
01:03:15
Speaker
I suppose it would be good to talk about the positive experiences with mental health. Have you experienced any of those? If you can think of people or services or things that have been the most transformative for you, what would those be? I definitely think my dad. My dad's always been a really awesome person in my life and I just love him so much.
01:03:43
Speaker
He's just always cared for me unconditionally, loved me. Parents are so important. I really feel for people who don't have that. It's hard. And he never made me feel bad about anything. So, for example,
01:04:02
Speaker
when I was having ridiculous amounts of showers and making the bathroom really steamy and stuff. I don't know, just loads of silly things. My dad wasn't concerned about that. He was more concerned about me and about my health and my mental well-being and emotional well-being rather than... Rather than the water bell. Yeah, exactly.
01:04:31
Speaker
He wasn't concerned about the water belt at all. And I'm telling you, I used to shower. This is crazy. I know that it was where my mind was. Apparently it was going to make me feel better. And I used to shower like multiple times a day for like ages, for like an hour each time. And I spent most of my life in the shower. So yeah, it was a stressful time and it was so bad.
01:04:57
Speaker
But I'm really glad because now I'm doing much better with that and many other things as well.
01:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, so definitely I think having people who can support you and look after you and review unconditionally is really important. And my siblings have helped me a lot. I love my siblings so much. They all look after me still and take care of me and they're very accepting and open with my autism as well and some other members of my family are neurodivergent too, so it just makes it
01:05:30
Speaker
You know, easier. And my cats as well. My cats have been an amazing support. And my cat Angel actually was one of them reasons why I didn't kill myself like two years ago.
01:05:46
Speaker
Yeah, pets are really, really, really important. They're just so special because she was really depressed when I was depressed. When I was leaving for uni and coming back and she actually got like cystitis and she actually had depression because I wasn't there and because I was ill. So she's much better now because I'm better and she helped me get better and I helped her get better.
01:06:11
Speaker
animals kind of help you view things from a bit more of like a realistic standpoint when you're like off in your head about issues that you're having you know animals are kind of there just living in the moment just like you know there for you just you know there's no no judgment
01:06:32
Speaker
No judgement, yeah. They always listen. I don't know if they understand but they always listen and they always like to see all your emotions so they take care of you. Yeah, I think for me in terms of things that have made a positive impact I would definitely say my family.
01:06:51
Speaker
particularly my mum was amazing, they didn't really understand much of it when I was younger but when I got into my early twenties I started to be a bit more clear about it, you know I came out about my self-harming, I came out about my depression, my issues with alcohol
01:07:11
Speaker
And so I started to become a lot more, you know, my family were amazing for supporting me through these times when I couldn't function and when I couldn't do stuff like make myself food or, you know, to keep on top of hygiene or get myself on track with things. Cats just chilling over there. She is just like, hi, guys.
Support Systems: Family and Community
01:07:42
Speaker
But, you know, I haven't really had the best experience with the mental health system. And I wish I could say that, hey, look, this is the path to take, because I just don't think that the mental health systems are good for autistic people at the moment, at least. I'm sure there are some great ones out there, but there were none that I could really find in my area. None that I could really find that were part of like the general health care that we have in the UK.
01:08:13
Speaker
So I was in and out of these situations and obviously having a lot of medication.
01:08:22
Speaker
which I suppose is another thing that helped me a lot. Something that, you know, a lot of people these days like to push aside and they're saying, oh, everyone's getting, you know, medicated and things like that. But it really did save my life for a lot of the time. And the times that I wasn't on these medications, the times that I really struggled and had these experiences. So it's,
01:08:46
Speaker
those things and also I think for me personally growing and learning more about autism was definitely a really big life-changing thing for me things like alexa fymia finally understanding why I just couldn't connect with my emotions and trying to find ways to get around that and notice when my mental health was getting bad that was such a massive thing for me
01:09:13
Speaker
talking to and listening to other people within the autistic community was really helpful for me as well.
01:09:20
Speaker
And there's been people throughout my life who have been advocates and supporters and really have my best intentions at heart and helped me. Where it was at university, there's this amazing student support officer that I used to go to when I was not feeling good. In my workplace, I have someone who was originally a work coach for me, who's now my friend, and she really supports and advocates for me in different situations at work.
01:09:50
Speaker
So I guess like, you know, the most important people for me outside of family are just people, like people who are open-minded, wanted to listen and cared about me and I could feel that.
01:10:05
Speaker
that was the most, those were the most important things for me in terms of mental health but also finding a meaning and I guess understanding more about where I wanted to be in life and who I wanted to be and
01:10:22
Speaker
aligning that more with possibilities like you know i'm not going to become this this completely different person but i can become like a better version of myself and having a meaning for me of wanting to help people wanting to share my message i think has been the biggest sort of driver for me even through situations where i'm feeling very depressed
01:10:47
Speaker
and it's not always easy and sometimes I do need to let people know to keep an eye on me but overall it has been getting easier to manage as I've got older that's a good thing yeah a really good thing one thing that I want to ask is you know because things like suicide
01:11:11
Speaker
carries a lot of stigma behind it and you even have a lot of people kind of shaming people who have committed suicide or think about suicide as being weak or not caring about the people around them. Those are just a few obviously, but what are kind of the common misconceptions of stigma that you've heard around suicide?
01:11:35
Speaker
I definitely think being weak, that's a really huge one, because actually I don't think it's that weak thing to go through with it at all. No, nobody who's experienced that will say that other people are weak. It's not an easy thing to deal with in life, it's the opposite.
01:11:56
Speaker
Not at all. And another thing is, from personal experience, and I think hearing other people's stories and research and stuff, the reason why people decide or choose to end their life by suicide or attempt to do that is because they are trying to run away from something. But it's not an external thing. It's internal and they simply cannot get away from it.
01:12:25
Speaker
So the feelings are very strong and the only way that you can think of getting away from it is probably sleep, but you can't sleep forever because you have to wake back a little bit. Yeah, exactly. That's another thing that I used to do a lot. Exactly. Me too, just get away from it. If you go to sleep, stay asleep. Yeah, sleeping in.
01:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, not dealing with the world today. Actually, when you depress, that's why you can either become like an insomnia because you're too stressed and thinking that you can't sleep or you just sleep forever. But I've done both. But I do think like the dark darkness of your thoughts just can become a bit too much. Yeah, and it just feels like a
01:13:08
Speaker
and natural and easy option and route to take, you know? Like, you just won't have to deal with any of the world-based stuff again. And to be fair, where you going, we don't know properly. But I don't know, whatever it is, surely can't be worse than this, is what it feels like. But yeah, that's what I think.
01:13:33
Speaker
I think there's a big stigma around suicide being selfish, that it's something that, you know, people are like, oh, you can affect the people around you. It is true. Like, people are going to have to mourn you and grieve. And, you know, it's not an easy thing for a social network to, for anyone that knows you to deal with or hear about.
01:14:00
Speaker
But there is also an aspect that, you know, it's not very easily put into words that most people could understand, but a lot of people who choose to do, who choose to take their life
01:14:16
Speaker
It's not something that is often like a selfish thing. For a lot of people, they can feel like they're a burden, especially if it's a long-term mental health condition. And they feel like they're actually, just by being there, they are reducing the mood, depressing other people around them that they're causing issues for people around them and that they are the problem in a certain family system or a certain social network.
01:14:46
Speaker
and so they feel that it's genuinely something that will help other people around them and that it's a good thing and that them being there is a bad thing and it's not easily I guess relatable to a lot of people but when you are in the midst of that really severe period where you know you are contemplating that a lot
01:15:09
Speaker
It's, it is very apparent. You don't, you don't care about yourself at all. And you feel very much like, you know, things would be better if you weren't there. It's hard for people to understand. Yeah, I agree with you. And in a way, it sort of feels like you're doing everyone else a favor by being there. Exactly. So yeah, I totally understand that and agree with you. Yeah.
01:15:37
Speaker
Yeah, and another thing I think is people, maybe like sometimes people might be driven towards suicide because unlike us, we do have some good support systems in place. People who don't have support systems in place may be more likely to go towards that route.
01:16:00
Speaker
Which is a shame. I think as well, if you're not diagnosed autistic as well, I think that's a massive part of the puzzle. I saw this crazy statistic on how many people in the UK could be undiagnosed autistic in the hundreds of thousands kind of range, which is absolutely mad.
01:16:23
Speaker
You see so many like, there's this TikTok that I'm gonna sort of critique and put out a bit later because it's just absurd. It's like this lady going off about how everyone's getting diagnosed autistic these days and that they're faking it and, you know, they're trying to get attention and find this cool hip identity for them. My God, like, they just really just don't understand.
01:16:50
Speaker
just because of like the stigmas around autism they feel like it's something just so out of the box um to assume but it's it's i think it's true you know um i don't think it's just from my personal experiences i you know i see a lot more than two percent of the population
01:17:10
Speaker
in my daily life. Me too. I sometimes go out and I think, oh, that person, I feel like they could be autistic. You get the spectrum going off. You do. You're like, ooh. And they might not even know it either. And at one point you didn't know it. Yeah, yeah.
01:17:32
Speaker
It's really, really, yeah, it's got to be wet on that. I mean, there's, there's, there's so many like stigmas from mental health and from autism. You have that, like, that Andrew Tate guy going around saying that depression isn't real and that, and other conspiracy theorists saying that medication is a way to keep you depressed so that you can, you know, you got all this, this stuff online and all of these people giving their faults on something that they've never experienced.
01:18:04
Speaker
just spying out absolute nonsense and it can be really hard to live in a world that kind of pretty much negates or tries to dismiss your experiences of life.
01:18:17
Speaker
as something that's a personality trait something that you know you're an anxious person you're a negative person and because you're an anxious and negative person you have anxiety and depression it's not like that not the most positive the most like loving and perfect and strong people i know they've been through mental health conditions really severe ones or really hard life experiences and
01:18:45
Speaker
Develop those conditions from it like it's not something that's that there's a personality trait Anyone can be can become a depressed it just you know for some people. It's a lot more common especially for autistic people
01:19:01
Speaker
I agree with you 100%. I do think as well with depression, it has a lot to do with like trauma and like unresolved trauma. So hearing, getting a child and trauma related things, I think is very beneficial. Yeah. Well PTSD and CPTSD is quite common for autistic people as well. Everything is more common for us.
01:19:29
Speaker
I know. We're magnets for everything. But I don't think that's because of us being autistic. I think it's our experiences. It's in a typical world, as you said. Because personally, I go to therapy weekly.
01:19:47
Speaker
and private therapy, again, because the mental health system doesn't provide great mental health support. Thank you. But it's so beneficial for me because I've learned so much from it about myself and healing myself. And I've become my more authentic autistic self as well since I've been in this therapy, so I'm happy.
01:20:14
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you. Well, I suppose the last question that I wanted to cover before we try and wrap things up.
01:20:23
Speaker
So we've identified this big mental health crisis in the autistic community. We know that suicidality is very high for us, along with lots of different other things and life quality statistics that really make it hard to live as an autistic person.
Recognizing Autism's Unique Nature
01:20:42
Speaker
How do you think we can better address and support others in the autistic community who have these experiences?
01:20:52
Speaker
I definitely think recognizing that autism isn't a deficit would be a really good thing because for me, as soon as I disclose to somebody that I'm autistic, their perception of me changes completely. And it makes me sad, and it sometimes makes me wonder whether I should tell people at all that I'm happy and I'm proud to be autistic because it is who I am.
01:21:21
Speaker
And I think along with that, once you tell someone comes infantilisation, so people will just automatically start treating you like a kid, like a little child. You're not a child, you're a fully grown adult who's aware of like everything and you know you're autistic.
01:21:43
Speaker
If anything, we're just more in touch with our inner child and it's cool, it's fun. We're not appalled to those social norms that keep us from acting in a certain way. Exactly.
01:21:58
Speaker
like I just do things because I want to do them and like for example my special interests are dinosaurs so everything to do Jurassic Park thank you and Jurassic World and usually that's just associated with children or young boys for example and I'm an adult female who's 25 and I still love dinosaurs and Jurassic and I love dressing up in different cosplay
01:22:23
Speaker
And also Batman as well. I'm completely obsessed with Batman and Gotham. But sometimes people can see it as like, childish. It's like, childish. I think it's pretty cool. But yeah, I definitely think infantilisation is one of the worst things that I experience still when I have experienced. Because autistic people are actually super, super smart.
01:22:51
Speaker
And I'm not just saying that because I'm autistic and I'm smart, you're smart. I think it's actually proven, isn't it? Like autistic people actually have... Average or above average. Average or above average IQ. So if anything, we're less childlike, we're so smart. I literally did my dissertation in four days. Like that's insane. I can't believe that.
01:23:15
Speaker
Well, it's, it's, it's weird, isn't it? Because when we're younger, we get classified as like little professors. Yeah. And we talk to like adults and stuff, but when we get to adulthood, we get characterized as like this immature, childish character, like. So weird. It's like two ends of the extreme. It's.
01:23:38
Speaker
Where's the middle? Is there a middle? I don't think there is. But instead of accepting us for how we are, people just like, I don't know, always make us feel weird. Because you feel able to break out of the social norms and barriers, social barriers that people enforce for no reason, that
01:24:00
Speaker
that makes you a child. Whereas, you know, if you talk to a lot of neurotypicals, there'll be a lot of things that they really enjoy that they've been like, oh, well, I've grown out of it and things like that.
01:24:14
Speaker
Have you grown out of it or are you just trying to conform because people might think it's a bit strange that you like to like Pokemon or like, you know, it's nothing to be ashamed of. You should be proud of your interests and your likes and any dislikes, you know, everyone's different. Yeah, I think it's important to just. Acceptance, acceptance, like if people could just be more accepting, it would be fantastic.
01:24:44
Speaker
I think as far as things that I think could be better addressed within the autistic community or just in the widespread mainstream, I think there really needs to be a distinction between low quality of life and being autistic.
01:25:02
Speaker
because a lot of people in their heads, they immediately think with any disability that by having that disability, you're going to have a low quality of life. And it's kind of part and part of the same thing. You know, you're disabled, of course, you're going to have a low quality of life. And I think we really need to try and make that distinction a bit more clear because I'm not fully convinced that
01:25:28
Speaker
Being autistic makes you have a bad life. I know a lot of people who have had really great lives and they haven't had all this trauma. They're autistic, they do great. They're amazing. They have social networks, they have friends, they have a relationship, they're in a workplace that they enjoy, they go travel in. They do all of these amazing things. But again, it's like, it's the environment. We're not in a place in society where education, the workplace, the media is an inclusive space.
01:26:00
Speaker
and that people understand us and i think i think that's a really really important key point i think also you know
01:26:12
Speaker
I think there is a barrier to talking about these really important things being that social media isn't always the most happy to encourage dialogue about things that are not positive.
01:26:31
Speaker
Some things you had to talk about, you know, like, for example, with this podcast, I'm not going to be able to make any reels out of it because I know that it's just not going to work. Social media is not going to push them out. It's not going to be a message that a lot of people hear. It's just part and part because, you know, social media is not designed for that. And we're all kind of kept safe within this algorithm so that we can't hear about this stuff kept safe. Like a bubble.
01:27:01
Speaker
like a bubble. Yeah, it's I mean, it's not like it's going to it would be removed, but it's definitely not going to be promoted. And it's, you know, even with this podcast episode, I imagine that, you know, just part and part the the naming of it. It's not going to get out to a lot of people. Which is the unfortunate side of it.
01:27:26
Speaker
i think as well we need to do a lot of work specifically around men i think there is a very heavy tendency for guys to adopt this kind of very strong mindset of i'm not emotional, i am strong, i can deal with everything
01:27:45
Speaker
mental health doesn't exist i'm just being weak i think that that mindset for a lot of men is quite prevalent and i'd really like to challenge that i think because i don't think being open and vulnerable is a is a level of weakness but i do think experiencing negative things about life and trying to find ways to phrase it or hide it is a sign of weakness
01:28:12
Speaker
i think that that mindset really needs to change a lot because just being open and just being or acknowledging certain feelings certain experiences you know that is a strength in its own and it requires a lot of strength of moral character and you know strength in
01:28:31
Speaker
you know, to share that stuff. I don't think that it's a negative thing. I'm sure there'll be toxic people around you, perhaps, you know, and there have been in my life who sort of ridicule you and, you know, say that you're feminine or you're too emotionally open and they sort of make fun of you. I've had a few guys like that in my life. But, you know, the majority of them, I think,
01:28:57
Speaker
A lot of them, a lot of men, they do want to talk about this stuff, but it's, you know, it's because of the current social climate, I think it's becoming a lot harder and male suicide is a real big issue, even outside of the autistic community. And I wish that's something that could be changed, but I think that requires a lot of work, a lot of shifting the narrative and the frameworks that we have.
Men's Mental Health: Changing the Narrative
01:29:24
Speaker
I agree with you a thousand percent. It's one of the things that I'm actually very passionate about as well, because I understand that men are more likely to end their life by suicide, which is really, really sad. It's the leading cause of male death and young to mid-age, the leading cause. So horrible. And it's like, it's that toxic masculinity sort of thing, isn't it?
01:29:54
Speaker
Well, like you said, I think it's strength. I think it's such strength to show that you have emotions and you're feeling them. And if you don't feel good, you're going to talk about it or you're going to do whatever you can. That's a healthy way to feel better. But like you said, I don't think it's good to bottle it or do other things to compensate for feeling bad emotions. Because if you think about it,
01:30:21
Speaker
feeling not so good emotions isn't a bad thing because if you weren't able to feel them then you wouldn't feel the good ones would you? So it balances it out. Will you be a psychopath? Men are not supposed to be psychopaths, that's not what we're trying to reach for. Exactly, you have to be emotional.
01:30:38
Speaker
feeling emotion, feeling emotion is not a feminine thing. It's a human thing. Everyone feels emotions. Exactly. Even the most masculine men, they feel very strong emotions towards their kids and their family. And like, you know, it's it's not something that, you know, has to be characterized as a weak thing just because you're acknowledging that you have emotions. It's
01:31:05
Speaker
And when people think about this, they always think about, oh, you think about all those men who get upset and start crying and going on about their experiences. Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be like that. It could be as simple as just telling someone that you're not doing great.
01:31:25
Speaker
or telling someone about your experience with something like we have been doing. It doesn't necessarily have to be this over-the-top emotional experience. It could just be acknowledging things and talking and trying to process how you're feeling. I think there's a really big roadblock there, but I'd really highlight that as something else.
01:31:50
Speaker
there is also another aspect of that and just from my personal experience and talking to other men it doesn't necessarily have to be something that is caused by other men I think in my life a lot of people have even a lot of women have assumed that
01:32:12
Speaker
I'm okay because I'm, you know, six-three and strong and, you know, I do all of this stuff. And so there's no possibility that I would need any support or emotional support with issues that I have.
01:32:30
Speaker
You know, that's been sort of a constant for me, I think. To be honest, from my experiences, you know, I've had more, you know, validating comments and validating responses from other men in my time.
01:32:47
Speaker
I don't know whether that's just because of my physicality or the way that I am but it's definitely an experience that I've had a lot in my life and I've always tried to support people and tried to help them through their own emotions and experiences but a lot of the time when I sort of turn there
01:33:06
Speaker
turn the spotlight to myself and ask for support or tell people about my experiences. It's often very much pushed aside when I've done that.
01:33:20
Speaker
don't know what that what that says but i thought it was just worth mentioning because i i do think that it's not necessarily something that's always pushed by men i think it's a general sort of societal thing and when you see someone like myself who's as i said you know quite externally quite masculine i think a lot of people can make assumptions that
01:33:46
Speaker
I'll be a certain way or that I can't feel emotions which has been very unfortunate for me in a number of circumstances. So that's all that I wanted to mention. Was there anything else that you think that would be good to address before we try and wrap things up?
01:34:10
Speaker
I just think ableism in general is such a big thing. There's just ableist attitudes just embedded in society and its systems.
01:34:26
Speaker
We've just got to try as much as we can to not eradicate, because we won't be able to, but to lessen the effects of it on people. Like you said, promote the positives of people with disabilities, because people with disabilities are not less fun. We are awesome.
01:34:52
Speaker
fantastic and we have lots to offer lots of creativity as well which is really cool and yeah the final thing I'd say is it's hard to unmask and it's hard to feel authentic in our world but it feels fantastic so you know if you can
01:35:14
Speaker
if you feel comfortable enough to do it and if you can't do it around everyone just whoever you can unmask around or with you know do it with them and family and friends that are important to you because they're so important but yeah that's all that I have to say Great that you highlighted the unmasking part I think you are definitely right with that
01:35:42
Speaker
It can put a big roadblock in all areas of your life when you do that. And also knowing when and where to do it and when it's safe to do it as well. Because I think it's all good in saying, unmask everywhere and do all of these things. But that's assuming that your environment's always going to be totally 100% positive and respectful, which is not the case in a lot of circumstances. No, unfortunately.
01:36:12
Speaker
Well, we'll hopefully change that in the sort of coming years. Hopefully neurodiversity will kick off and we'll start getting a bit more mainstream attention and start improving things a bit more, making life easier for autistic people. Yeah, so it's coming to the point in the podcast where I would usually do song of the day. Do you have your song of the day or do you want some time to think about it?
01:36:41
Speaker
Yeah, you can. Yeah, it's fine. Let me look at my Spotify, whatever I've been listening to. I definitely do have songs because all I do is keep my headphones on.
01:36:51
Speaker
Me too. As fun as talking about negative, horrible things. To be honest, it's a bit weird. Like, because, because of, because of being a lexophimic, I can talk about things that are really depressing and horrible very easily without it kind of affecting my mental state in the, in the moment. I think I experienced that too, cause I talk about it with like,
01:37:19
Speaker
smiles or like chimneys but it's not because i'm happy about it it's just you know what i mean yeah you feel kind of detached a little bit detached emotionally from like the emotions for me tend to come like after or like a few days after when i kind of reflect on it and you know i'm in a situation where i'm feeling quite sad anyway and i kind of think about it again i'm like yeah damn like it feels worse
01:37:48
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes. That happened to me, yeah, because I remember I had to send my letters from the hospital for evidence, for mitigation, for meditation. And when I was taking, I was taking pictures of them and I was reading them and trying not to read them. And I was like, I am fine. A few days later, I was not fine. I was completely depressed and I was like, what the hell? And it's because I'd read everything that had happened during that time and it's traumatic.
01:38:12
Speaker
But, you know, it is what it is. And I stayed depressed for a few days. And then I went to, there's a place called the Sanctuary Cafe in Wolverhampton. And I go there quite often if I'm not feeling good, can you just get to talk to someone and just sit and chill and have coffee. It's nice. It saves things. I need more of those around the country. Definitely. I've got my song of the day because I went to do my Kennedy concert. Hit me.
01:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, my song of the day is Homeward by Dermot Kennedy. So nice. And why have you picked this song? I picked this song because Thursday last week I actually went to see Dermot Kennedy live in Birmingham. I think it was Alpha NEC. And I just thought it was such a beautiful song because it just highlights how you're not alone and someone
01:39:10
Speaker
Someone is there for you and can be and will be there for you and you can also do that for someone else. So homeward, homeward, homeward. Wait, homeward. Is that how you spell homeward? Yeah, I don't even know. It was an actual word. Homeward. It looks like homeward. Homeward. If that is true, it does.
01:39:32
Speaker
It's a lovely song. So that will be added to the song of the day playlist. I should really turn it around and call it song of the week because it's a weekly podcast. I don't know why I've called it song of the day. Maybe because it's the song on the day of the podcast. What if you called it song of the day of the week of the podcast? I'm joking. That's so long.
01:39:59
Speaker
yeah so that is always as usual down in the description you might have scrolled down to the bottom to check it out there's about 23 songs so far of different uh guests that i've had on sharing their own songs that that have some meaning to the topic of the podcast or some sort of deeper meaning to themselves or something that they just like um all their own personal music
01:40:22
Speaker
So if you wanna go check that out, that is the bottom of the description on YouTube and bottom description and pretty much anywhere else, you can check that out. So yeah, Hina, do you want to, do you have any links that you want to share or anything? You don't have to if you don't want to, but.
01:40:42
Speaker
I don't know if I have any links. I just follow like a lot of pages on Instagram. I can't remember them all off the top of my head, but obviously one of them is yours because it was like literally one of my favorite pages. I think autistic column as well. Auti now, neurodivergent loom. But I follow loads of autism ones.
01:41:09
Speaker
So autism support community, I don't know, they're all just like... And I love Brian. Yeah, they're all related to autism and I follow loads of pages to do mental health response. Very cool. Thank you. Awesome.
01:41:26
Speaker
Well, if you have enjoyed this episode, please make sure to like and comment if you're on YouTube, even if it's just a heart just to let me know that you got to this point. Or if you are on one of the other podcasting streaming services like
01:41:42
Speaker
Spotify, please make sure to give it a rate, preferably the five star variety. Let me know your thoughts. And yeah, if you want to stay up to date with my work, this type of content I do, I do daily blogs on Instagram. You can find that at Thomas Henley UK. You'll also be able to see podcast updates, reels, and also clips over on YouTube, which is the name of the podcast if you want to find it. So yeah.
01:42:12
Speaker
That's all I wanted to say today. Have you enjoyed your 40 audio experience, Ina? I've thoroughly enjoyed it. It's been fantastic. And I'm so happy that I got to do this. And to be on the podcast with you and yeah, just for loads of people to listen to if they want to and just help you. Destroy those stigmas and... Yes. Eradically. Yeah.
01:42:41
Speaker
Well I hope you have enjoyed this episode of the 4D Audio podcast and I will see you next week in another episode. See you later.