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Autism, ADHD or AuDHD? (Coaching with Brooke)
365 Plays2 years ago
How do you know if you're Autistic or have ADHD? What are the differences between Autism and ADHD? What similarities do Autism and ADHD have?
Brooke Schnittman (@Coachingwithbrooke) is an entrepreneur and ADHD coach with a team of 8 ADHD coaches; with over 120k Instagram followers, Brooke produces a lot of content raising awareness of ADHD traits and how to work with those traits practically in your own life.
Brooke's Links - https://linktr.ee/coachingwithbrooke // My Links - https://linktr.ee/thomashenleyUK
Dbud Noise Cancelling Adjustable Ear Buds (15% Off) - https://dbud.io/thomashenley
Thomas Henley kicks off the episode by talking to Brooke about language differences between the USA and the UK, the different spheres of the Autism world, her background in managing the top-rated special education public school in the entire USA, and her experience creating the SuccessFULL With ADHD podcast.
One of the most difficult things with neurodivergencies like Autism and ADHD, is separating them from each other for the purposes of identity, support, teaching methods, and possibly the use of medication. In line with the topic, Brooke and Thomas highlight some common similarities between Autism and ADHD from a diagnostic standpoint: Intense fixations and interests, emotional dysregulation, executive functioning issues, stimming behaviours, sensory differences, problems with socialising, burnout, processing differences and a need for routine.
They speak on the interesting dynamics that occur between Autistic and ADHDers in social relationships and communication, whereby Autistic people are usually led into interesting off-shooting topics by the ADHDer, but the ADHDer finds a lot of use in the directness and blunt communication from the Autistic person in focussing on the topic of conversation or achieving mutual clarity.
Teasing apart differences between Autism and ADHD proved to be very difficult due to the large variance in traits of individuals within each group... but talk around hyper vs hypo awareness of indirect communication, Alexithymia, hyperactivity, impulsivity, transition or focus behaviours, verbal vs internal processing and flat affect came up as some solid ways to differentiate between the two.
Due to the present-day stigmas and stereotypes of Autism compared to ADHD, most find themselves diagnosed with ADHD before Autism. For the purposes of practical application, the two propose different traits that an Autistic or ADHDer can look for to know if they should pursue the other diagnosis:
Autistic people looking into ADHD could look for signs of daydreaming, racing thoughts, switching from task to task quickly, getting sidetracked easily and consistently, oversharing, or restless energy.
ADHDers looking into Autism could look for more issues with Autistic inertia, big issues with transitioning, issues with alexithymia, starting conversations, noticing indirect emotional cues, shutdowns/meltdowns, faux regulation and flat affect.
They end on speaking about the USA to the UK, and Autism to ADHD language differences. Thomas speaks on the Autistic community's aversion to the term Aspe
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Special Episode on Autism and ADHD
00:00:07
Speaker
Good day, and welcome back to the 4G Auto Podcast with your host, Mr. Thomas Enley, of course. How are you doing today?
00:00:15
Speaker
Today, we've got a very special episode as per usual.
Thomas's Journey into ADHD Understanding
00:00:20
Speaker
We're going to be talking all about autism and ADHD. Now, there's a bit of a funny story around this because I've had a few conversations with some odd HD for anyone who doesn't know is basically the term for someone who identifies as being autistic and ADHD.
00:00:41
Speaker
So I've been kind of going through my own sort of personal dive into what ADHD is all about. I think the first time that I really sort of was able to kind of voice my opinions and thoughts is when I was talking to Dr. Megan Neff, which if you haven't already watched that episode, it's a really, really great one. All about PTSD and CPTSD. But we were talking about that and that crossover was
00:01:11
Speaker
It's been on my mind for a while. It's a little bit strange because I'm on a medication which is quite highly sedative, but I can't really remember a time when I wasn't on them. And I've always really sort of struggled with concentration, executive functioning. Some of those things that I mentioned, they're kind of some things that are, you know, they cross over between diagnoses.
Introducing Brooke Schnittman, ADHD Coach
00:01:40
Speaker
We're gonna talk all about that kind of crossover, what the differences are, what the similarities are, whether you as an autistic person can know if you might wanna go for an ADHD diagnosis or explore it or vice versa, if you have ADHD. So today I'm joined by Brooke Schnittman.
00:02:03
Speaker
Uh, here is, uh, a master's and a master's, what does PCC mean? It's a professional coach certification. And then the board board certification, uh, certified, uh, specialist.
00:02:26
Speaker
We're going to leave it in. It's funny. It's me trying to wrap my head around speaking. I really, you know what? I think I might, you know, also have some kind of sort of dyslexia kind of experience of things. Cause I find it really hard to like read off like the page. Yeah. Yeah. Many, many ADHD years have that.
00:02:48
Speaker
Really? Well, we will get into that.
Brooke's Coaching Journey and Instagram Connection
00:02:51
Speaker
Brooke is a certified coach specializing in ADHD and founder of Coaching with Brooke. Brooke and a team of eight coaches help individuals with ADHD, 8 to 80.
00:03:06
Speaker
gain the tools and accountability to lead empowered lives. Brooks also works with individuals with ADHD since 2006, as she graduated her master's in students with disabilities from New York University. She is also the host of the Successful with ADHD podcast, which shines a light on the strength of ADHD as... Morinbrook, how are you doing today?
00:03:35
Speaker
I'm doing great, Thomas. I'm glad that we are finally here connecting again. Yes, of course. We had a scheduled podcast yesterday, but my brain's been all over the place at the moment, which is probably very apt for our conversation today. So we missed that, and Brooke was really great in rescheduling, and we're here today, the day after. I'm very thankful for that. It's all good.
00:04:07
Speaker
Well, would you like to tell us a little bit about your, your sort of online work? Cause we know that you've, you sort of, you specialize in kind of coaching and you, you earn like a business and stuff, but what does your like online content tend to cover?
00:04:22
Speaker
Yeah, so you and I initially connected over Instagram. So I would say that our biggest following is there, but we do a lot of carousels that break down ADHD, some of the nuances of it and tools to help people
00:04:43
Speaker
with that area of their ADHD. So if someone maybe doesn't recognize that that aspect might be in fact part of their ADHD, it shines a light on that. And if they've been struggling in that area, we give them tools for that. So it's a great resource. It's literally a library of like every single aspect of ADHD.
00:05:08
Speaker
We also do an Ask Brooke on the fourth Sunday of every month. It's not like an Instagram Live.
00:05:18
Speaker
No, I put questions into my story and people can ask the questions and then I personally respond within that day. But I do tons of Instagram lives successful with ADHD is a podcast. However, after the podcast, we go on live on Instagram with whomever I spoke with and answer the questions from the public and
00:05:44
Speaker
kind of just go deeper into some of the topics that were discussed.
Brooke's Transition from School Administration to Podcasting
00:05:48
Speaker
So there's lots of free information there, but you can find me on all platforms under Coaching with Brooke. Well, in terms of your podcasts and stuff, when did you start that and what kind of
00:06:04
Speaker
I mean, I imagine that it's related to ADHD and autism and stuff like that, but it'll be interesting to know like what your sort of journey with us with that. Did you do any like presentory stuff before that or is it kind of thrown into the deep end kind of thing?
00:06:19
Speaker
So I used to be an administrator in a school system. So I was working with individuals with ADHD since 2006, worked as a special education teacher for eight years, and then an assistant director of special education. So with that, I did a lot of presentations. I was also in different leadership roles. And then in my company, did some news stories.
00:06:48
Speaker
other people's podcasts. And then I was joined by a fellow member of Different Brains, which is a neurodiverse company. And we are currently and previously doing a podcast called the ADHD Power Tool. So that has been going on for like two and a half years. Two podcasts. I know. But we've taken a little bit of a break because my co-host is studying for his MCATs.
00:07:17
Speaker
So I figured at this time it would be perfect to start my own podcast that initially started just as an Instagram live. And I feel empowered to finally do it on my own. And I think that imposter syndrome, which is huge for people with ADHD and neurodiverse brains and even entrepreneur women.
00:07:42
Speaker
I didn't think that I was capable of doing a podcast. I've had my company for five years and I've been wanting to do a podcast, but I'm like, who wants to listen to me? So finally I just got out there on Instagram, put my face out there. I'm like, you know what? If I can do it here, I can do it on the actual podcast platform. So we started it, it launched three weeks ago, successful with ADHD with 2Ls.
00:08:09
Speaker
And we're already in the top 10% of ADHD podcasts. So it's exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. Well, um, I find it, I find it really interesting. Like in our pre-chat when we're talking about sort of the world of, of sentence special, special educational needs and disabilities, I think that's, is that the acronym? Yeah.
00:08:34
Speaker
It's different by you and as it is here. So in the US, they call it something different. So like in New York, they call it the committee of special education. So that's CSE in Florida, they call it ESE.
00:08:56
Speaker
It's interesting, like the different dialogues between countries. Right. They both speak English, but just, you know, slightly different words. Yeah. It's like the horse riding
Terminology Differences in Special Education (US vs. UK)
00:09:10
Speaker
in the UK is horseback riding US. Sidewalk in the US is path in English, in England.
00:09:21
Speaker
Fascinating. There's some other ones. Oh, pants. Yeah, that's, that's, that's the, uh, that's, that's the old one. Pants first underwear. Wait. So for underwear, people in the UK say pants. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you say for pants? Like joggers, probably like if they're like sort of the cotton kind of fabrics. Yeah. Well, those aren't joggers.
00:09:51
Speaker
What trousers? That's good to know. So if someone's saying they're not wearing their pants, I know that. Yeah. I've had a few conversations with.
00:10:10
Speaker
sort of American people. And that has been something that kind of makes people go like, you know, but yeah, I mean, just thinking about like the world of, I'm just going to say Sen because I can't remember the acronyms, but like it's interesting because
00:10:29
Speaker
You know, to me, there is sort of distinct sort of fields within like the realm of like neurodiversity. You have like parents, you have adults, you have professionals, and there's obviously like subsets of each of them and you have like partners of neurodiverse people and friends, but they're very separate. Like the terminology, sort of the attitudes, they tend to be quite different.
00:10:59
Speaker
I know that in the UK, they don't tend to deviate quite as much, but I have seen sort of in the US that those kind of spheres tend to be kind of more boxed off. So I guess I'm really interested in like, you know, your experience working in those sort of high level positions, sort of having that sort of influence on, you know, special needs education in the US. Yeah.
00:11:28
Speaker
So coming from a school background initially, I was grateful to work at two of the best schools. One was the best school in the country and one is the best special education public school on Long Island.
00:11:45
Speaker
Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And one was the best special education public school or program, we should say, on Long Island. So I was thankful for that. And I felt that students
00:12:03
Speaker
received the accommodations that they needed very often, which isn't always the case in certain public schools. I am in Florida right now and I'm fighting hard to get the accommodations that my stepson needs. Both of my stepson's have ADHD.
00:12:25
Speaker
So I think it's really the nuances. You need people who know what they're talking about and what they're doing and knowledge is power and don't settle. The experience angle as well, because I imagine that, no, I'm right in thinking that you're an ADHD as well.
00:12:47
Speaker
I am. I am. Okay. My brain is so foggy at the moment. So that's okay. Yeah. And ironically, even though I've been working with ADHD for 17 years, I didn't realize I had ADHD until four years ago when I self-diagnosed and then got a real diagnosis from a psychologist in the area. So
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. But I would say that, again, just don't settle. If you are a parent or your students, make sure that you're getting the accommodations that you deserve. And also, over accommodations aren't always good either. So you want to make sure that it's within your needs and not just speculating that one day you might need this. So you can always revisit in any public school system
00:13:38
Speaker
your individualized education plan. You can have as many meetings as you want. So I want to put that out there for all those parents who are worried. You can request a meeting from the school at any time.
Overlap between ADHD and Autism: Fixations and Emotional Dysregulation
00:13:53
Speaker
Awesome alum.
00:13:55
Speaker
I mean, I suppose a really good sort of place to start off with is, I mean, we're going to be talking about sort of like, particularly around the crossovers. I think, you know, in the past, I've done a couple of things sort of around ADHD, but I've never sort of explored like the world of old HD. So I guess like, you know, what are the similarities and like crossovers between like the two diagnosis is like,
00:14:25
Speaker
whether it be something to do with the actual diagnostic profile or whether it's to do with your own sort of professional experience. Yeah. So they are very similar. And sometimes people confuse the two and sometimes people are diagnosed with one and not the other. And then they realize they have both.
00:14:47
Speaker
So I know we were speaking before now and there's over 50% of individuals with autism who also have ADHD. Some studies show 50 to 70% of individuals with autism have ADHD. So.
00:15:06
Speaker
Both ADHD and autism affect the central nervous system, which is responsible for movements, language, memory, social and focusing skills. But the amazing thing about it is if you get
00:15:22
Speaker
the services that you need and you find out that you have autism at an earlier age, there are so many things that you can do to help your language, your memory, your movements, social interactions. So it can
00:15:42
Speaker
Like, it doesn't go away, but it's just like ADHD doesn't go away. But there are so many ways to empower yourself and to, you know, get the help you need. I think it's less about sort of getting over it more, like, in terms of making adjustments, like, within your own life. Correct.
00:16:09
Speaker
You know, for me particularly, I like to be pretty much, I don't tend to have a lot of social interaction. It doesn't mean I don't tend to like it. It's something that I do quite enjoy. I do seem very small bursts. So like there's that adjustment and then there's things like sensory adjustments that I make pretty much on a daily basis.
00:16:34
Speaker
Where would those, you know, if we were to kind of look at it in a sort of broad sense, where would those like two things sort of cross over, like, cause obviously there are sort of those similarities, but which kind of diagnostic criteria would you, would you say that that kind of crossover.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah. So both individuals with ADHD and autism can have intense fixations with interest. So, you know, we can get very excited and hyper fixated on a hobby and an interest and then it bores us and then we move on.
00:17:12
Speaker
So there's one crossover. We both have emotional dysregulation. So we have difficulty regulating our emotions due to the third thing, executive functioning issues. My enemy. So there is where you see a lot of overlap. And then of course I'm happy to share the differences
00:17:40
Speaker
Um, but that is part of the reason why sometimes it can be challenging to know, you know, if you have autism or ADHD or both. It's interesting to kind of, I think it would be cool to kind of zoom in and on like the particulars of those things, because I think for me, when I've, when I've talked to people who are just ADHD or know that they're ADHD, but maybe, maybe might be autistic, I don't know.
00:18:10
Speaker
You never know, but they tend to say that their sort of fixations and interests tend to be like a lot more, they tend to shift quite a lot. And one sort of comparison that I've found with
00:18:27
Speaker
Autistic people is that we tend to have more stable longer term kind of interests on things. I did a post recently on a concept called Autistic Monotropism. Oh, I saw that pop up today. Yeah, it's kind of a sort of
00:18:49
Speaker
quite a simple sort of concept that has a very complicated sounding name, but it's basically someone's predilection to be like, you know, when we're focusing on something, when we're interested in something, we get more of that sort of, we get more of those blinders, that kind of tunnel vision on our interests.
00:19:14
Speaker
For a lot of people, particularly myself, in terms of hyperfixation, I'm getting really focused on something. I can often spend an entire day not eating, not drinking, not feeling like I need to go to the toilet.
00:19:33
Speaker
because I'm so focused on like a project that I'm doing or a video that I'm doing. And quite often I have the real big issue of finding a cut off point, particularly in the evenings. I do I have fall fell into the trap many, many times in my life of allowing myself to go past a certain time that I've set for myself. Because once I kind of go when I'm prolonged working for like over my set designated time, it's like those
00:20:02
Speaker
rules that I had to kind of blown out the water. And I'll just, I'll just continue working and working and working until I, you know, I get migraines or I get tired or, you know, there's some like external force on me. Yeah. Thomas, can I ask you a question? Does that help you relax too, by getting hyper fixated on interest of yours?
00:20:28
Speaker
I mean, it can definitely be work. I mean, it's interesting because whenever I've done sort of psychotherapy and stuff around anxiety and sleep and such, they always recommend that I try and reduce the amount of stimulation that I get sort of during the nighttime. And they're saying like, oh, listen to an audio book or read a book.
00:20:50
Speaker
But for me, I need to do something. So I need to write or, you know, what I tend to do it during the evenings that works pretty much every time is I'll set my phone at the lowest brightness. I'll turn on the warm setting on it and I'll just like tilt the screen away from me and I'll play like a game. And then I'll just tend to kind of drift asleep when my meds kick in.
00:21:18
Speaker
I hear you. There's a battle between stimulation because sometimes we don't have enough stimulation and sometimes it's too much stimulation, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I get kind of restless if I'm not doing something, like I'm not sort of having a particular focus on something. I definitely have that.
00:21:39
Speaker
Sometimes it doesn't go so well and it didn't go so well last
Autistic Inertia and Hyperfixation
00:21:42
Speaker
night. And, um, I had a really sort of intense kind of, uh, feeling of, you know, we call it autistic inertia, where, um, you know, the longer that you kind of stay hyper fixated on something, you know, the longer that that goes on, the harder it is to kind of break out of that. That thing, you know, where things like issues with like transitions and
00:22:08
Speaker
things like that, routine changes come in because we kind of build up that speed. It's like, yeah, you build it. It's like a steam train. It's like you sit in the steam train and you just, the more that you go on, the like faster that it gets. And then like, if you want to break, it doesn't really work so much. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Alliwell talks about the Ferrari brain, right? And the Chrysler brakes. It's really hard to stop.
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah. And quite often if you're not in a good place and you kind of let it run rampant, you can lose a tire. Definitely. Big blowout. But like in terms of like hyper fixation, what kind of differences have you seen sort of between autistic and ADHD? So my specialty really is ADHD.
00:23:06
Speaker
And I would also say that, and this doesn't go for everyone because it's a spectrum, right? So this isn't a one size ADHD or one size autism, but I've seen more like anime and Legos and trains and what else? Like,
00:23:34
Speaker
Comic this. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like Comic Con. I forget. I guess it's anime. But more like fantasy. Yes. For the autism. But again, you know, I have children with ADHD and they're not diagnosed with autism. And, you know, one of them loves anime and loves Legos. So,
00:24:03
Speaker
I don't, I don't really know the, if there is like a huge difference, but I do know more is like the, the kind of like the presentation of the hyper focus. Like, cause I know with ADHD, you have like the, um,
00:24:24
Speaker
The focus, the focusing tends to be a little bit more erratic and you know, if, and I'll probably give the example of for me, you know, if I'm, if I'm focused on something and I hear a noise in the corner or someone shouts my name or I get a text message, I just don't, I just don't know. So I just continue in that focus mode, but yes. Yeah. I think that
00:24:54
Speaker
I don't know is the answer, but I do know in like when someone in my experience, and again, this is not everybody. And when someone is hyper focused or hyper fixated on something with autism and you interrupt them and you like
00:25:14
Speaker
really try to get them out of that. That transition can be intense. It can be really difficult, that anxiety, the frustration, all of that where they need that preparation.
00:25:31
Speaker
Now individuals with ADHD also can have difficulties with transitions as well. So, but yeah, I believe that individuals that I've seen with that transition in who have autism have a harder time transitioning for sure.
00:25:52
Speaker
And what about the aspects of emotional regulation? I know for autistic people, there's quite a high co-occurrence of this... I don't know if you can... I think it's more of a trait, it's less of a diagnosed condition, but more of the Alexophimic experience of struggling to focus yourself internally and...
00:26:21
Speaker
understand or realize or identify what emotion you're feeling, particularly in the moment. Yeah. I think that in order to gain
00:26:34
Speaker
more of a sensory stimulation or like to stim due to what you're talking about. Like individuals with ADHD might flap their hands, might rock, like those repetitive behaviors, the echolalia, repeat that same sound over and over again. And it's, it's to help them stay focused and right.
00:27:03
Speaker
And at the same time, they can have difficulty with like intense sensory sensitivity. So someone I'm close to who does have autism, little things might really bother him, you know, whether it be chewing, you know,
00:27:31
Speaker
Noises from far away. Misophonia. Misophonia, exactly. So, might have an intense reaction to those types of sounds. In terms of ADHD, would you find that... I mean, just as a sort of guess, because I haven't done a lot of research or work around ADHD.
00:27:58
Speaker
Would the emotional regulation or the most modest dysfunction kind of aspect of ADHD be more around things to do with like positive emotions or, you know, like?
00:28:16
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of, I don't know if this is answering your question, but even neurotypical, oh, excited. Yes. We get impulsive, although not, you know, everyone with ADHD has impulsivity.
00:28:31
Speaker
We have a lot of mental or physical activity. We're quick, like you said before, to jump to different hobbies and tasks and jobs where maybe someone with autism will hyper fixate on something for a little bit longer than someone with ADHD. And as far as negative thoughts go, we, you know, all individuals have negative thoughts and then neurodiverse brains have a negativity bias on top of that.
00:29:03
Speaker
I mean, I'd imagine that a lot of the sort of the emotional dysregulation with ADHD would be like more akin to like not stopping and just continuing to like burn for your like your gas tank constantly. Whereas with autism, it's more like, I mean, to be honest, I experienced the same, that same kind of feeling of, you know, burning yourself up by doing too much, but
00:29:30
Speaker
I think a lot of the emotional overwhelm that I experience, it tends to be with the sensory, like almost always like 99% of the time the sensory and the social stuff is less, less as much of me kind of just absolutely taxing my brain, if that makes sense. Yeah. The person I was describing before loves to tax their brain, but also has ADHD and autism.
00:29:59
Speaker
But, you know, both ADHDers and individuals with autism thrive on routine, even though we hate it at the same time.
00:30:08
Speaker
going back to those transitions. Yeah. You know, we like doing our own thing. We don't like following rules. We don't like other people telling us what to do, but at the same time, we like that preparation. We like to know what's coming that can emotionally calm our brains.
00:30:34
Speaker
Ay up, just popping on to say thank you for listening to this podcast thus far. If you could do me a real solid, please make sure to rate the podcast if you're in a podcasting streaming service and do all that like, subscribe, comment stuff on YouTube. Damn, even send a heart in the comments if you don't feel like typing.
00:30:53
Speaker
Make sure to check out my link tree, which is always down below in the description or head over to my Instagram page at Thomas Henley UK for daily blogs, podcast updates and weekly lives. This podcast is sponsored by my favorite noise cancelling noise reducing earbuds that you can adjust the volume on. Really, really great thing. They're called D buds and you can find the affiliate link down in the description of this podcast for a 15 percent off discount.
00:31:22
Speaker
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast. That's all from me. Hmm. Well, um, I know we talked a bit sort of like the sort of the similarities in the crossover, but what about like in terms of diagnostics, in terms of sort of the ADHD versus autism experience?
Diagnostic Differences: ADHD vs. Autism Sensory and Social Skills
00:31:43
Speaker
What are the differences? Like if you could, if you could pick some things out that
00:31:50
Speaker
would sort of deviate between the two, which kind of things would those be? I'm not looking at the DSM-5 right now. If I was to pull it up, I would probably have a better idea. But I would say to your point, the big differences with autism and ADHD for autism, it's the sensory, the social difficulties.
00:32:17
Speaker
the, the speech delay or the unusual speech with ADHD, the processing, but both of them have processing like both 80, a lot of individuals with ADHD have slow processing or are also diagnosed with an auditory processing disorder or some other type of processing disorder. I was diagnosed with a processing disorder early in life, but individuals with ADHD have difficulties with concentration.
00:32:47
Speaker
impulsivity very often the hyperactivity and the hobby jumping, but we both have the executive dysfunction, the executive, uh, the emotional dysregulation, the fixations. Well, it's, it's interesting. Like I think one, one thing that I find particularly hard to wrap my head around is because you know, quite often when we think of neurodiversities,
00:33:17
Speaker
Because because there's such like a wide array of experiences for each individual person, it can sometimes hard to like box people into specific groups. Yes. Because I've heard as well that there are other tends to be some kind of I mean, it tends to be different just from the adage people that I know. But there tend to be some some issues in terms of like socializing sometimes.
00:33:48
Speaker
What, what kind of things do you think, you know, those, those would be like, uh, for ADHD years, for socializing, we can very often overshare and then feel bad about it afterwards. Um, and that comes with that impulsivity and regulation and.
00:34:11
Speaker
you know, sometimes we like to go hard and then we need to relax. And I know that individuals with autism as well very often need that time as well to come down from all the stimulation that they're seeking throughout the week and throughout the day. So I find that when I'm
00:34:34
Speaker
I'm thinking of one individual in my head, but I'm not going to name them of course, but I know someone that does have ADHD diagnosis, I don't think they're autistic. They haven't explored it or anything, but I'm pretty sure. But I find that for me talking to them, it tends to be like,
00:34:57
Speaker
this kind of strange dynamic where I'm very sort of direct and blunt and I can kind of
00:35:07
Speaker
I tend to be able to concentrate more on, on the topic. Whereas when I'm talking to someone with ADHD, it tends to be the case that we'll talk about, I'll talk about something now to give them monologue and then we'll start talking about it. But then they'll kind of veer off track and just start talking about other things. And then I, and then I ask a question.
00:35:31
Speaker
yes and then I kind of bring them back to it or it can be like sort of on the more like short term thing where I start speaking I'm very slow in my processing and sometimes I'm quite mellow in the way that I deliver things
00:35:47
Speaker
Yes. You just reminded me. Yes, as I'm doing to you right now. Sorry. It's okay. No, you just reminded me like my interactions with certain people with autism, very literal.
00:36:09
Speaker
my assistant has autism and it has helped me become such a better communicator where I got distracted in my communication with ADHD like you're saying but you can't when you're talking to someone with autism they need to know black and white
00:36:29
Speaker
what it is that you need from them, right? Or what it is that you mean. Those little nuances in humor or in knowing someone who I'm close with who likely has autism as well.
00:36:47
Speaker
you know, when you're feeling a certain way, without expressing it, saying, I am sad, or I am feeling this way, it might be hard for that person to pick up on how you're feeling. Yeah, that aspect of cognitive empathy, definitely. I don't think it's, am I right in thinking that that's not something that ADHD has experienced, like the
00:37:13
Speaker
It's phrased as other things. Cognitive empathy, basically, it's the ability to do exactly what you just said. It's the ability to know how someone's feeling just based on indirect cues and not that sort of direct verbal kind of explanation, more emotional expression over emotional explanation. Correct.
00:37:41
Speaker
I don't think that an individual with ADHD from the majority of people that I work with and know have as hard of a time with that. I believe that we're more hypersensitive.
00:37:56
Speaker
and because of that, we have that empathy to be hyper aware of how other people are feeling to a point where we're compensating for someone else and their needs and we put that over our own. We're so alert and aware of everyone else's feelings.
00:38:23
Speaker
I think there is a difference between cognitive and adaptive, and adaptive is that element of once you know how someone's feeling, you're empathic, you respond
00:38:39
Speaker
you respond correctly to how they're feeling, so you'll comfort them, you'll do things for them, you'll talk to them. It's that aspect of knowing, I think, that's the hardest, and it's been described as other things like theory of mind, or the difficulty of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.
00:39:01
Speaker
And also in terms of emotional expression as well, because we don't tend to have as much of the facial expression, the body language, and the tonality changes when we're in certain emotions. So it's hard for us to really identify with someone when they're openly expressing it.
00:39:25
Speaker
you know, because perhaps when we're sad, we might just look completely blank and just talk in a very sort of mellow voice, you know, but we might be like 95% anxious, like we're nearly, nearly gonna have a blow up. Whereas for other people, you can see it, they'll be like fidgeting, they'll be like, you know, like showing those kind of visual signs.
00:39:48
Speaker
That's probably a good sort of key difference, that sort of cognitive empathy part because- Yes, and to that point too, you can think that someone with autism might be mad at you by having that tonality of voice, but they're not. Or just not being serious. Yeah, right, exactly.
00:40:14
Speaker
You have so many issues, like, especially within like the realm of psychology and stuff, like when you get in counseling or you're working with like a mentor of work or you get in psychotherapy. Or even to be honest, in most places, like in life, we tend to approach people and say something that is completely conflicting with how we're acting. Like,
00:40:41
Speaker
And that can be really hard for people to kind of grasp. We call it like flat affect. We don't appear to be in distress, but we definitely are. I think it can make it really hard in those settings because perhaps people might not take us as seriously if we say,
00:41:01
Speaker
I'm, I'm very depressed and I'm, you know, not feeling good and I'm thinking about all these, these horrible things. But if someone said that I'm feeling really depressed and I'm just, I'm thinking about such horrible things and there's more of that like congruence between the two. Right. That's not what you say. It's how you say it, right?
00:41:22
Speaker
So a lot of the training that people did to kind of understand autism in terms of emotions kind of focuses around, you know, if we're directly explaining our emotions, it literally means that it's not less by the fact that we're not expressing as much on the outside.
00:41:42
Speaker
It's very interesting. Like it contributes to things like, um, what's the name? There was faux regulation, sort of faking that you're regulated when you're not. Yeah. So like inside you, your mind's going all places. Yeah. You're masking that intense panic, but on the outside you're like calm and you're talking to people like you usually would, but
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, they've done some studies around, it's really interesting, like around like cortisol and sort of being heightened more in us and then taking longer to fall back down. Hmm. So would you say that the anxiety associated with autism is higher than the anxiety associated with ADHD?
Anxiety Processing in Autism and ADHD
00:42:32
Speaker
I'm not sure. Okay.
00:42:36
Speaker
It tends, I mean, just from my experience, autistic people, we tend to retreat when we're anxious. I don't know. Sort of on the ADHD side because.
00:42:49
Speaker
I imagine that there's a lot of, due to the fact that you have that hyperactivity element that you are moving a lot and you sort of doing things and you're sort of coping with that anxiety and stress by getting the movement. Whereas for us, we kind of just sit with it and just kind of ignore it. And it all sometimes does not even recognize it that we're feeling that way. So I think there might be some differences in how we sort of process it possibly.
00:43:19
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah. Well, um, I guess like that sort of the natural follow-on to that is, you know, what is it like to be an ODHD? What is the light of a dual diagnosis of autism and ADHD?
00:43:37
Speaker
So I don't have autism and ADHD, but I can speak from, you know, people I know who do and clients I've worked with and just from what they've shared with me and what I've studied. So again, like I can't speak from someone who has it, but intense hyperfixations, like you said, uh, with the autism piece, but then,
00:44:04
Speaker
you know, pulled aside by the stresses of other people's needs. So like high anxiety about are they meeting, you know, their loved ones desires and needs. Yes. The sensory piece for sure. So
00:44:33
Speaker
the overstimulation, getting angry about some of those things and speaking out about it or running away from it, needing a lot of time where it almost looks like it's antisocial, but a lot of time to just come down from the overstimulation.
00:45:03
Speaker
Very successful. So Albert Einstein, right? Is suspected to have had ADHD and autism as well. Big visionary. Yes. Right. So we know that Elon Musk has autism. I don't know if he has ADHD.
00:45:27
Speaker
So big visionaries, we get visionaries with people with ADHD and visionaries with people with autism.
00:45:35
Speaker
I believe that from what I've seen individuals with autism and ADHD do like to try to fit in as well. So with that neurodiversity, there's the masking, but then when you're working with someone, there's the awareness and then trying to figure out your place in life. Yeah. And
00:46:01
Speaker
trouble with eye contact, sometimes, you know, either like being funny, but also having a hard time understanding other people's humor. Yeah. That's it, saying things that are inappropriate for the social context.
00:46:22
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. And also having hard time again with executive function, the planning, the organization, emotions, you know, that's hugely intertwined. So I think a lot of things that I've heard from people is like the main thing that I see from all the HD and sort of doing their posts and stuff is that
00:46:51
Speaker
they kind of have this weird sort of push-pull dynamic with how they go about life. So it's like they really, really like intensely need that sort of fixed daily routine that they know what they're doing every hour of the day. It's sort of a regular thing every week. But then they also have that like sort of the more ADHD kind of side where it's like the
00:47:20
Speaker
It's like they kind of screwing themselves over because they want, they kind of, they know that they need to have that routine to focus them and kind of provide them that, that sort of comfort. They don't want to plan it and they don't want to be set into this box, right? They don't want to follow rules and structure, even though it's good for them. But it's, yeah, I mean,
00:47:44
Speaker
And also as far as routines go, same restaurants, same movies, same, um, yeah, day to day, same people. I find also that individuals with ADHD and autism, when they socialize, like being around people who are interesting to them. I mean, everyone enjoys conversation that can flow, but like,
00:48:16
Speaker
They want communication with people who are more intellectual or who get them, who they can talk history with, who can talk facts with, those types of conversations rather than just that small talk of nothing. They want, okay, so this is what's going on. Let's deep dive into this rather than just shooting the breeze. Yes, yeah.
00:48:45
Speaker
I think I think with like just autism on its own, I think we do tend to like that sort of more focused thing. But I suppose then again, there's there's like, if you're if you're ADHD and autism, it's you want to have that like deep dive on something, but then you keep getting sidetracked with the conversation. Yes. So taking taking different side streets and stuff.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah. And I find that like someone else could be the, like in phone calls, for instance, like someone can call and then the ADHD, the odd HD
00:49:29
Speaker
the autism and ADHD individual will sometimes hijack the conversation, right? And as if it was their conversation, although the other person was the one doing the calling. So then they have to kind of back up and be like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry. You called. What was it that you wanted to talk about, you know? And listen, we do that with just ADHD as well, right? So there's, there's more of that kind of,
00:49:59
Speaker
Because for me, it takes me a while to warm up to her social interaction. I can't just jump straight. When I go about my time at the gym, it's like I'm focused on my workout, I'm focused on my music. If someone comes up to me, I'm not expecting to talk to anyone.
00:50:19
Speaker
If I do go to the gym with the expectation that I might talk to someone, it's not too bad because I can sort of mentally prepare myself. But it's like that thing with the monotropism. It's like, if I don't expect to have a conversation with somebody and someone starts a conversation with me, it's almost like I don't know what to do with myself. It's kind of, you know, it's hard to get into social mood when I'm sort of in that sort of productivity work mode.
00:50:49
Speaker
But I'd imagine if, if you had that sort of more ADHD kind of influence that you might just be sort of more, more impulsive and sort of go into it a bit sort of quicker and deeper. And yes, but it's, it's usually more based on what's in that person's brain that comes out.
00:51:13
Speaker
first at least. And then they catch themselves and they're like, Oh, wait, wait, you know, but again, I was, how's your day? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Here's my story for 20 minutes. Exactly. Exactly. But you know, everyone is different. There's a spectrum. So I don't want to say it's always this way or it's never this way. This is just my personal interaction with a U D H D
00:51:42
Speaker
with just ADHD, with just autism from the people that I've worked with, from the people I'm close with. This is what I've seen. Sure. Sure. I suppose it's, it's, um, but it's quite difficult, isn't it? I think, I think the ideal would probably be, it would be interesting to have myself, you and someone, someone who's on ADHD and sort of like,
00:52:10
Speaker
I've got other questions about like, you could do like, uh, like a real way you ask like different questions to people and like, you know, see if there's any like difference in how they feel about it. You and I need to do that once this person is ready to come out with their diagnosis. Yeah. A hundred percent. I would love that. I would love that.
00:52:37
Speaker
I mean, just in terms of kind of wrapping things up and thinking about sort of the more like practical applications about what we've talked about.
Identifying ADHD in Autistic Individuals
00:52:47
Speaker
You know, if you were to think of an autistic person, you know, obviously talked about a lot of different sort of aspects that could be applicable.
00:52:58
Speaker
But what, if you were autistic, what would you look for in terms of like ADHD traits? Like, you know, you might feel a lot of, you know, cause of that crossover, you might be like a bit tentative about sort of exploring the world of ADHD because that, you know, as you said, the lines are very, very blurry between the two. What would you, if, if you were an autistic individual, what would you, what would you look for?
00:53:28
Speaker
in terms of like, hey, you know, this isn't sort of typically autistic experience. Maybe I should go and sort of explore it a bit more. Yeah. I would say that controlling impulsive behaviors, racing thoughts, daydreaming, being overly active,
00:53:57
Speaker
jumping from task to task, you know, starting getting sidetracked, like doing one thing, but then getting sidetracked by other things. Yeah. Because the other, a lot of the other things overlap. Yes. Yeah. I think that's really good because it's not, you know,
00:54:21
Speaker
I suppose the jumping from task to task, it's less so like an autism thing because of that like intense focus and the inertia and having to sort of break that and switch to another thing. Like sometimes it can take me anyway, depending on my mental health and sort of how much, you know, I've done, you know, what my energy levels are like. I can, you know, sometimes it might take me about 15 minutes to kind of rearrange my head.
00:54:51
Speaker
It's like, if I go from perhaps work and I'm just like, bang on, soon as I finish work, I get my clothes, I get my bag, go to the gym, I couldn't do that. It would just absolutely like send waves of anxiety through my body. I just wouldn't know where my head's at. And when I got to the gym, I'd be like, how did I get here? And you know, this doesn't feel right. And it's almost like I have to kind of prep myself in order to make the jump from
00:55:21
Speaker
doing something like work-wise into rest and then preparing myself to go into something else. And there's those transitions, right? They're really hard.
00:55:32
Speaker
So doing those and transitions are hard for ADHD or two, but like it could be really hard for someone with autism. So that prep work, like you said, whether it be an alarm or telling yourself, okay, you know, by this time I'm going to do XYZ and I'm going to have this ready. And then, you know, I'm going to need to go here. Lots of prep work, like you said.
00:55:59
Speaker
I think another thing that, you know, I think that was a really great list of sort of things that you can look out for, because I think because of our tendency to be a lot more self-focused and want to, we kind of crave that feeling of just being fixated on something because it kind of, it blurs out the sensory world, it blurs out everything that's going on.
00:56:25
Speaker
So we don't tend to have, well, I don't tend to have, from a lot of my experiences, that sort of daydreaming aspect. I won't just kind of just get lost in thought a lot. I will have processing blips where I just forget everything that we're talking about and sort of, it's like my brain cuts off, but I don't like go off into thought and sort of follow that kind of train of thought around and sort of take different directions.
00:56:54
Speaker
I saw some really funny memes. Someone did this, I don't know if it's a meme, but they did a reel where they were explaining how it feels to be ADHD.
00:57:10
Speaker
I don't know if I'm able to do this, but I'll give it a go. So, like, someone will ask them, oh, how has your day been? And they'll go, well, how's my day? Well, I did this and, you know, at work. But then I saw that lady Karen who was, you know, I'd, you know, you know what she's like.
00:57:26
Speaker
And the issue, you know, to be honest, yeah, anyone who kind of acts like that towards me, it's kind of a big of a red flag. It's kind of like my ex. My ex was, you know, he had all sorts of these kind of issues. Like baseball for some reason.
00:57:41
Speaker
You go to all these different tangents and you can go on and on and on. I remember one of my friends growing up and it's almost like she got it out of me. She would go like this when I was talking and I was undiagnosed ADHD. She's like, like, get to that point. I remember when I was even in ADHD coaching training, one person I was like sample coaching was she was in my class. She's like, okay.
00:58:10
Speaker
You got there. You got there, finally. But we're verbal processors, so sometimes we don't even know what it is until we get there.
00:58:22
Speaker
So it's that like more thinking out loud. Correct. It's internal. It's like, I'll go quiet for like five, 10 seconds. I'll think about it and then I'll speak. Yes. Yes. So my assistant who has autism as well, she's like that as well. So she'll be very quiet. I can tell when, um,
00:58:47
Speaker
you know, she's thinking about something, how she wants to say it to me. If she's upset about something or like she has too much stimulation going on, I can see that, you know, things will kind of like break down a little bit and she'll need time to recover. Yeah. Yeah. So there's those little nuances.
00:59:13
Speaker
That's really cool. I suppose looking from the other side, I mean, I know that for you personally, you're not autistic. I suppose if you're an ADHD, what could you possibly look for about possibly pursuing an autism diagnosis? I mean, from my experience, it tends to be like the opposite way around, but I imagine that it could definitely happen.
00:59:41
Speaker
Yeah, yes, definitely. If I was to pitch in a couple of things, I think definitely the Alexify Me aspect of things, not being able to identify, I'd notice or sort of tie emotions to events. That tends to be something that the autistic people experience a lot.
01:00:06
Speaker
And also the aspects of cognitive empathy, like I said, about sort of monitoring indirect communication. I'd say that those two, for me, those are like the biggest things when it comes to social, emotional stuff with light autism. What do you think? Do you think there's anything that you would add? Yeah, I think for the hyper ADHD, hyperactive, impulsive type,
01:00:32
Speaker
it's easier to spot the ADHD very often. And if they've masked or adapted in certain ways or they're lower on the spectrum, maybe of autism, the ADHD might be more prominent in them, and that's what they might be diagnosed with first. And also, there's so much information on ADHD out there. I know we spoke about that at this point, and I think the stigma has been broken a lot more.
01:01:02
Speaker
it hasn't been enough yet with autism. So I think that people might identify more if they have both with ADHD and then maybe, I don't know, this is very interesting. It's like that, that kind of stigmatizing. Cause I think, I think there's a lot of, I don't know. I feel like a lot of people, it feels
01:01:28
Speaker
I mean, to me, if, you know, me thinking about me possibly having some ADHD, it feels less sort of intrusive on my identity and it's more kind of, you know, I think of people who are ADHD as they're like fun, they're like positive to be around and it's like, but when you think of like autism in terms of like the stigma and myths, it's like, oh, you're socially inept, you're a bit weird.
01:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, flat affect. You're not very cool. Right. And you can challenge that too, right? Because everyone, it's a spectrum. Sure. And also like with that intrusive piece that you were talking about, like, you know, before it was Asperger's and autism, right?
Implications of Asperger's and Functioning Labels
01:02:16
Speaker
They still were under an umbrella, right? But they were separated now. Yeah.
01:02:24
Speaker
It's autism spectrum disorder. So I'm curious from someone who has autism, you know, what that does for someone who's identified. I think it's an interesting question. I know it's a very, there are some trigger points within the autistic community and a lot of the trigger points tend to be around what we call functioning labels.
01:02:54
Speaker
Like high functioning autism or whatever. Yeah. And basically the Asperger's label was created by Hans Asperger who.
01:03:05
Speaker
so sort of a researcher in Vienna they owned this really really great children's hospital at the time and it was taken over by sort of the Nazis during the Second World War and yeah and basically he made the distinction between two groups of people one which she called Asperger's syndrome which
01:03:26
Speaker
where people he deemed to be sort of useful to society. Is it tend to be obviously the social awkwardness sort of on the outside to them, but more of the the hyper fixation, the sort of the more intelligent ones and the sort of he box those people off so that they weren't removed. I won't go into too much about that, but
01:03:55
Speaker
So there's a bit of history around that. And, you know, we have a lot of issues in the autistic community like fears around eugenics, which has been, you know, it's only in the last sort of 10 odd years where it's kind of been challenged in some sort of some organizations.
01:04:16
Speaker
So there's that kind of split, and I think a lot of people will respond quite drastically to things like that, because they were very sort of quick to kind of identify that and sort of separate ourselves from the label. For me, it's quite a bit more complicated because I see the utility of having sort of set categories of people based on which needs they have.
01:04:46
Speaker
I think for a lot of people, it's just the terminology. It's not nice to be called low functioning. What makes you someone high functioning or low functioning? Exactly. It's not like you have high functioning ADHD and low functioning ADHD. It's not nice for someone to call you low functioning because, what are you trying to say? Right. And it's not nice for someone to call you high functioning because
01:05:11
Speaker
You may have loads of issues, but be considered high functioning and people don't take you seriously. You don't get as many supports. You don't get as many adjustments. So, you know, they, for those terms, the kind of, they box people off based on, you know, what their needs and their functioning levels, which is not something that people like to draw a lot of attention to. Sure.
01:05:36
Speaker
And for me personally, it's something that I've thought about quite a lot. There's different ways of saying it nowadays. I think it's more about categorizations, but whenever we try to, whenever I try to kind of
01:05:54
Speaker
think about or have a dialogue around sort of the utility of those kind of categorizations. It's almost, it's almost always like a really hot point of, you know, people saying like, how dare you, you're, you're an ableist, you're saying that we're better than them and stuff like that. But then you have the parents of autistic people or friends or supporters of autistic people who have like intellectual disabilities. They can't,
01:06:23
Speaker
manage a job. They can't live by themselves. They have all these supports in place. They can't communicate sometimes. So there's that tension around making that distinction, which can often shut down a lot of conversations around those things. Which then I'm wondering now that people don't use the term Asperger's, right? So now
01:06:50
Speaker
It's ASD one, two, and three, which is basically, I think is worse for the cause because, because you're literally saying like, what level of autism do you have in one twos and threes? Which I don't think that's a good way of doing it, but. Right.
01:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very complicated word. But you know what? With ADHD, there's mild, moderate, and severe. So I guess that's your one, two, and three. But it's not indicative of intellectual ability. Yes. It's just the amount, like how prominent the ADHD is. I think for me, I tend to make the distinctions because
01:07:34
Speaker
I tend to make the distinction based on if or not they have an intellectual disability. So I just say they're autistic and they have intellectual disability, which kind of, you know, we're not talking about levels of autism, but we're talking about autism and a different diagnosis. So it's kind of hard work in that line. I think, you know, one thing that I'd be really interested in knowing
01:08:00
Speaker
is around the sort of the particulars around identity and language before we, before we sort of wrap up.
Identity-First vs. Person-First Language in Autism and ADHD
01:08:06
Speaker
Yes. I find it, find it really interesting because I mean, for you, you, you've been sort of using that person first language. Individuals with. Yup. And if you say that in the U S it's offensive.
01:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's, you know, for, I think, I think in terms of autism, the consensus is for autistic adults, is that a lot of us like, well, I just said it, a lot of us like to be identity first, like, um, and that it's, it's, it's weird because
01:08:42
Speaker
people who prefer one use of a language versus another like they both have sort of positive intentions with it like the person first language it's like oh person first like of course we want to put the person first that's great they're different from this they're better than this and whereas when you have the when you have the identity first it's like well you don't want to box someone off into a category
01:09:10
Speaker
But I think that the real sort of difference is the attitude in terms of identity because if you view autism in sort of a neutral to positive way, and you see it as part of your being, and you don't feel like if you weren't autistic, if you feel like you wouldn't be your same person if you didn't have an autism diagnosis,
01:09:39
Speaker
And it's something that I feel for myself. But then I do understand sort of, it tends to be sort of with the more person first language, it's something that's being used quite a lot in the word of education and parenting. So it's kind of...
01:09:58
Speaker
It's, it's, it's kind of been adopted for a different reason, but it's, it's all in the, the positive intentions of using that. So it's, it's interesting that like crossover between, but why buy ADHD? Because I know that individuals with ADHD. Yeah. It's the same, it's the same difference with the UK and the U S with autism and ADHD. So I had this conversation with another podcaster in the UK and, um, coming from a school background.
01:10:28
Speaker
We had to be very careful how we identified someone with a disability. So even on an individual education plan, which is a legal binding document with services and accommodations, it's an individual with autism, individual with ADHD, an individual with depression, an individual with anxiety,
01:10:57
Speaker
It's not an anxiety person or an ADHD person or an autism person. Well, I think it's interesting those crossovers. I've talked to people with physical disabilities and they don't want to be called physically disabled. Person. They want to be a person with a physical disability. Disability, right. But in terms of the ADHD community outside of education, outside of those kind of systems, do you think that
01:11:25
Speaker
ADHDers sort of prefer that person first language or that kind of identity first language. I think it depends where they're from. Fair enough. If they're in the UK, they're used to doing the identity first. If they're in the US, they are used to doing the, but yeah, I mean, and some people are more sensitive to the labels than others, you know?
01:11:53
Speaker
just like ADHD and autism, it's a spectrum, right? So everyone responds differently to labels, I think. Yeah.
01:12:02
Speaker
I think it's generally a consensus that identity first is preferred by a lot of autistic people. Yes. And some people don't understand labels too. Some people without the diagnosis or even with the diagnosis, you know, they'll say, why do you need to label it? You know, nothing happens in vacuum, which is true, right? So everything is nature and nurture.
01:12:28
Speaker
However, it helps individuals usually to be more self-aware and be able to come from a place of strengths within their diagnosis as well. Everyone has strengths, just human strengths that they have based on their
01:12:49
Speaker
core strengths and their core values, but then there's also typical strengths of individuals with autism and individuals with ADHD. So knowing those and knowing your boundaries with weaknesses can help you thrive with a diagnosis too. Well, it's very interesting. I mean, for me, it's
01:13:10
Speaker
You know, I like to be referred to as an autistic person, but I'm also, like, but only in the case of, like, you know, if someone was to put a media piece out, I would prefer that they say Thomas is an autistic person rather than Thomas has autism, Thomas with autism.
01:13:34
Speaker
Just as a personal preference, but I know that a lot of people can be very, uh, they can find that kind of difference in language are very, very difficult to navigate for themselves. They can get quite upset if people use the wrong sort of terms for it. So to be honest, the majority, that's interesting. So as someone, sorry, it's okay. You go. I think the majority of people, they don't.
01:14:03
Speaker
they don't mind either way, most people that I know use it interchangeably, it's just kind of what fits with the sentence that you're saying but I know that it has been a talking point in the past, definitely
01:14:20
Speaker
So yeah, I'm curious, right? So you have autism, I have ADHD. So you're from the UK, I'm from the US. So when I identify you in a conversation, right? Would I say you're an autistic individual? I'm autistic. Right, you're autistic. And then when you talk to me, are you going to say? You have ADHD. I have ADHD. That's why I was kind of like, do I call you an ADHD, or do I say with autism? Right, right.
01:14:50
Speaker
PC. I don't know if it is a sort of a regional thing, but it might be. Meanwhile, I call myself an ADHD-er all the time. It's just easier for me rather than...
01:15:04
Speaker
dragging it out an individual with ADHD and in my social media and in my newsletters. Yeah, very often use ADHD and I've had some people even from the US or the UK who've been offended by the word ADHD. So you just
01:15:26
Speaker
Don't know. It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. I think the consensus is that, I know a lot of people like the identity first for autism, but I think it's always just good to go by what the individual wants to use. Exactly. Like, if I want to change my name. You don't need to get this prescribed. Exactly. If I want to change my name from Brooke to Beth, you're going to call me Beth, not Brooke. If you want to be called, you know, an autistic person, then I'm going to call you an autistic person.
01:15:56
Speaker
or autistic, right? Yeah. And you know what I love? Yeah. Yeah.
01:16:07
Speaker
Yeah, no. And I'm curious because I, I've watched like all the seasons, love on the spectrum.
Critique of 'Love on the Spectrum'
01:16:15
Speaker
I love, love on the spectrum because it really highlights all of the ranges of individuals with, sorry, autistic people. And I would love to know your thoughts on that show. I love, I love on the spectrum.
01:16:36
Speaker
Funny thing about me is I tend to avoid everything in the mainstream media that is at all related to autism in fiction. Gotcha. Mostly because it hits a bit too close to home sometimes. I'm kind of used to watching things that have neurotypicals in that I feel very detached from. Like I like that sort of emotional distance. Sort of like the difference between
01:17:07
Speaker
I don't know, it's kind of, it's more for me, it feels more like watching like a nature documentary for me when I watch dramas and stuff that I have neurotypicals in. But when there's like autism involved, it's like, there's a mass spectrum. And I know that love on the spectrum, it's sort of a reality, sort of TV thing.
01:17:27
Speaker
I did watch the first season and I was actually quite surprised about sort of, you know, as you said, the range of individuals that are on there. They had, they didn't, from what I saw, they weren't particularly going out for targeting individuals that have this set of stereotypes that they're looking for in order to generate clicks and to generate interest. They did just have like a range of different people, whichever was really great.
01:17:56
Speaker
Sometimes the production choices, they're a little bit on the edge for me. Particularly around music. Sort of the doo doo doo doo, kind of the light-light-hearted like, they don't know where they are, they don't know what to do, and oh my god, what's going to happen? That kind of music. Kind of feels a bit circusy in terms of the music choice, which I wasn't too keen on.
01:18:25
Speaker
I wasn't, I was also not too keen on including a lot of the dialogue between the autistic individuals and their parents and sort of the ways that their parents handled kind of conversations. Yeah. Make sure you prepare this way. Yeah.
01:18:45
Speaker
Yeah. And that's fine. I think it's just more, I think they kind of had this air of banter, the cameramen or the interviewers and the parents where like the parents were like, Oh, this is like rolling their eyes. This is the autism thing. Like, um, whereas, you know, the autistic person was just trying to have a conversation and just being themselves and stuff. So it's kind of pointing that out as like, uh, I don't know.
01:19:14
Speaker
It kind of felt a bit infantilizing in some aspects when they involved the parents. Not to say that living with your parents or having them around or having import is bad. It's just kind of the way that they treated them when they were in front of the camera. It's like, oh, don't say that. They're in person. Let them say what they want. Right. Be authentically autistic, right? That's what the show is all about, finding someone who understands them.
01:19:44
Speaker
It's not about helping someone's kid get a day. It's about helping an adult get a date. Correct. It's that kind of lens that they choose to frame it with, which has kind of rubbed me up the wrong way. But, you know, I thought it was generally quite, quite good compared to perhaps some of the other stuff. There's another show, isn't there? There's like the Undateables or something like that, which I think features a lot of autistic people.
01:20:13
Speaker
That's the title, Undateables. Yeah. Yeah. I think Love on the Spectrum was definitely a bit of a better design choice than the Undateables. Yeah.
01:20:28
Speaker
Yeah well it's been really really great to talk to you about this kind of stuff and I always find physically when categories or identities of people have like a crossover between one another and it's kind of hard to sort of pick them apart in terms of understanding
01:20:48
Speaker
like who you are, if you're an autistic person listening to this, you're thinking, hey, I don't know if I got ADHD, or is that an autism thing?
Brooke's Song of the Day and Online Resources
01:20:56
Speaker
You know, I very much relate to that. And I'm sure that if you, you know, you're an ADHD, you have ADHD, you know, you'll find that hopefully some of the things will be able to kind of make that distinguish and sort of possibly push towards sort of exploring autism a bit more.
01:21:16
Speaker
I think what you said about the stigma around autism is a really big barrier. So it's really worth pointing that out. A lot of people don't identify with it because of the stereotypes. So, um, yeah, it's been really great. Thank you. Thank you for, um, love this. Love it. Thank you for having me. Have you enjoyed your, um, 40 auto experience, Brooke? Oh, it's been amazing. Good.
01:21:46
Speaker
I got that. It took me a second, but I got it. That was a good one. Thank you. So we have come to the part of the episode where we do the very lovely segment called Song of the Day, where I ask my guests to provide a song which accurately describes or touches something on the topic of the podcast or something that they personally enjoy and find useful.
01:22:15
Speaker
Usually we will, I will put the description, put the link, I'll put the description down in the link to the Spotify playlist where you can find all of the different songs that people have contributed over the course of season two of the 4080 podcast. So Brooke, which, what is your choice, choice of song and why? So my choice of song is Show Me Love by Robin.
01:22:45
Speaker
Okay. It's an older song. And the reason is because it's been stuck in my brain and it's suggested on YouTube music.
01:22:57
Speaker
But also I think it really highlights what we're trying to say here. It's like the label is the label and we have to show ourselves love and compassion and other people need to, you know, see the real us. So show me love. Like it starts with us and knowledge and awareness.
01:23:19
Speaker
I like this very upbeat song. It's very upbeat. I love it. Yes. I jam out of the car. I know this song. I didn't know it when I first, I'm playing it now. So I didn't know it when I was first playing it, but I definitely recognize it. Yeah, it's a good one. An oldie but a goodie. Yeah. Let's add that to the playlist.
01:23:46
Speaker
and go find that down in the description. But before we leave, Brooke, would you like to share some links, some places that you would want people to go to? Absolutely. Coachingwithbrooke.com.
01:24:00
Speaker
You can find me on Instagram for a lot of free resources as well, coaching with Brooke. I mean, everything we do is ADHD. We have put in some autism and ADHD posts as well. And then if you have ADHD and you have autism or you know someone who has ADHD, we launched
01:24:21
Speaker
my podcast a couple weeks ago, Successful with ADHD and that can be found on all major podcast platforms and it's Successful with 2Ls. Yes. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool.
01:24:36
Speaker
Well, thank you very much for that. Now I'll put that down in the description as always. And yeah, if you have enjoyed listening to us talk everything about ADHD and autism and the crossovers and the differences and all of that lovely stuff, please make sure to give me a rating, preferably of the five star variety over on Spotify, Apple,
01:24:58
Speaker
all of those places and if you are on YouTube watching us watching
Thomas's Shift to Personal Consultancy
01:25:01
Speaker
me with my very smooth face after having a beard for quite a while still look weird but um yeah make sure to give me a subscribe like maybe comment down below give me a blue heart
01:25:15
Speaker
really, really helps in terms of the algorithm and getting this type of information, this message out to more people. And if you want to keep up to date with my life and check out my daily blog posts and reels, head over to Instagram at ThomasNTheUK. I am at the moment sort of going through a bit of a weird stage in my business because I've had this really crazy opportunity that's come upon me. And I've had to kind of take a little bit of a back burner on developing my business.
01:25:45
Speaker
But I am sort of leaning more towards the side of consultancy, personal consultancy rather than coaching.
01:25:53
Speaker
So basically all that would mean is that there's less of sort of a process and it's less about the outcome and sort of setting goals and achieving them and more about sort of having a chat and understanding more about autism, understanding more about yourself, neurotypicals, relationships. And basically it kind of gives me agency to be a bit more recommendy with things, which kind of suits me a lot more.
01:26:20
Speaker
and less of the paperwork and all of that kind of stuff. So that's probably what I'm going to go with in the future. So personal consultancy. You're going to do an amazing job.
01:26:33
Speaker
Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to it. It would be good to kind of get started and sort of, as you said, sort of make my own way. And I've had issues with my imposter syndrome. It's like, am I going to be able to do it as the financial paperwork stuff too much? But taking it slow.
01:26:52
Speaker
And of course, if you want to check out that consultancy work or you want to get in touch about the podcast, send in your thoughts. I will try and read out some emails next time. So send them over. You can follow the link in the description to a link tree. You'll be able to find my website on there and there'll be a contact form that you can use to get in touch.
01:27:14
Speaker
But so thank you. Thank you very much, Brooke. Thank you for understanding about all the rescheduling stuff. Oh, stop it. It was one time. I'm glad you didn't say sorry. Thank you. Exactly. There would be a lot of rescheduling.
01:27:37
Speaker
Sorry is a big family word within my family. We're sorry people. Sorry you're not sorry. Sorry sorry. We're cutting out sorry. Thank you for having me on today.
01:27:55
Speaker
Thank you very much to you, the listener, the viewer, for tuning in to another episode of the 4DOD podcast. And I will see you in the next episode in a week. See you later.