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Autism Relationship Masterclass
1.2k Plays1 year ago
What challenges do Autistic-Allistic relationships present? How can neurodiverse couples communicate better? What qualities do Autistic relationships need to be successful?
Mona Kay (@neurodiverse_love) is an ADHDer, podcaster, and relationship coach. Married for 30 years to an Autistic man, together for 32, but only aware they were a neurodiverse couple after the 29th year... after her divorce she started the Neurodiverse Love Podcast. Mona uses her experiences and knowledge to offer new and neurodiversity-affirming ways to improve relationships.
My Links - https://linktr.ee/thomashenleyUK // Mona's Links - https://linktr.ee/NeurodiverseLove
Dbud Noise Cancelling Adjustable Ear Buds (20% OFF with code: THOUGHTYAUTI) - https://dbud.io/thoughtyautipodcast
Mona kicks things off by speaking on the story of her marriage and eventual divorce from her Autistic spouse. She describes the ways she was unknowingly overwhelming her husband with her communication, flooding him to the point of shutdown.
Thomas and Mona discuss the common miscommunications that can happen between allistic and autistic individuals in relationships:
Not being concise or specific, overloading with emotion, lack of preparation, ignoring the need for social transitions, being aware of social batteries, pathological demand avoidance (PDA), ignoring sensory sensitivities, understanding of processing time, flat affect, and lack of direct emotional explanation.
They speak on the controversy of Cassandra Syndrome, and how this should be viewed as an issue of Double Empathy... before going on to highlight the general positives and negatives of Autistic relationships.
Dating a different neurotype will always come with more issues with communication if not properly addressed. Not understanding platonic vs romantic intent, issues around identifying flirting, different ideas about the boundaries of relationships, or even the relationship goals/milestones.
Mona speaks on the unique issues that can come with moving in together and not addressing each other's needs, the challenges of raising children, and the hidden issues that surface once children move out of the home. Thomas chips in with his experience of moving in with a partner and his desire for a partnership in the future.
Rounding up the episode, they converse about the qualities in yourself, your partner, and the relationship that lead to the best outcome:
Being self-aware of your non-negotiables, core values, and boundaries, having a growth mindset, patience, open-mindedness, low emotional reactivity, independent mindsets, curiosity, direct communication, and solid conflict resolution.
Song Of The Day (Listen Here) - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5UDIyN5TSYN4zMcRoQPrG8?si=9255ed3480d840b5
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Transcript
Introduction to Neurodivergent Dating and Relationships
00:00:06
Speaker
Good day, and welcome back to the 4GOD Podcast with your host, Mr. Thomas Henley, of course. How are you doing today? Today I've got a very, very special episode for you people out there. We're going to be talking about dating and relationships as a neurodivergent.
00:00:25
Speaker
We're going to be talking, well, myself particularly, I'm going to be talking from the more autistic side of things. And my guest Mona is going to be speaking more broadly about the challenges of dating as a neurodivergent, some of the miscommunications that can happen, some of the challenges and positives to longer term relationships in terms of life milestones and managing daily life.
00:00:50
Speaker
as well as how you can spot and avoid potential unhealthy relationships and round it all up with a lovely kind of look into the kind of qualities and mentalities that you need for a successful relationship. I'm very excited for this episode because
00:01:07
Speaker
I feel like there is definitely a need for a lot more content, a lot more awareness, education, anything you want to call around dating and relationships for autistic people. It is something that a lot of people want out of life. And we know from just looking at the statistics around social isolation that it is a really big issue that needs to be talked about at least.
Mona Kay's Journey to Understanding Neurodiversity
00:01:35
Speaker
So I'm going to introduce my guest from the Neurodivergent Love Podcast, Mona Kay. How are you doing today? I'm doing fantastic, Thomas, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Definitely. And I think when we last had our pre-interview chat, we were talking about kind of doing a podcast swap. So I think this week it's going to be on mine and the next week it's going to be on yours. It's going to be cool. Absolutely. It's going to be good. Yes, it will.
00:02:05
Speaker
You said that you've done quite a lot of podcasts in your time. Would you like to talk a little bit about your podcast and maybe give us kind of an overall introduction into who you are and what you do?
00:02:18
Speaker
Sure, I'd love to. So I was married for 30 years. We were together for 32 and we didn't find out until our 29th year of marriage that we were a nerdverse couple. And I found out about this because a dear friend of mine was dating somebody who she'd met on Facebook.
00:02:38
Speaker
And she said, oh, there's something different about him. And I'm like, how so? Is he different? And she started sharing all this information. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's my husband. That's my husband. That's my husband.
00:02:51
Speaker
And we had been separated for almost two years at that time, Thomas. So I approached my husband at the time and I screamed at him that I thought he was having a meltdown and I thought he was, that he had Asperger's. That was the term I knew at that time. That was the wrong way to approach somebody who you think might be near the verdict.
Post-Divorce Self-Discovery and Podcasting
00:03:15
Speaker
And then he actually, at my pushing, went and got an assessment, or what was supposedly an assessment. And the therapist said to him, yeah, you're probably on the spectrum, but so what?
00:03:30
Speaker
And so he came back and he told me that. And I said, well, that's important for us to know because now all that conflict we've had, the different perspectives we've had on things, all the challenges we had during our marriage makes sense if we look at them through a neurological lens. Now we get to transform our marriage, but he did not want to do the work. I did. And about nine months after that, we divorced.
00:03:59
Speaker
And I took two solid years to really work on getting to know myself better, what role I played in the end of our marriage and really going through a healing process. And then I decided to start the neurodiverse love podcast. And that was in the middle of the pandemic two and a half years ago. And I started it with that friend who told me about her boyfriend at the time.
00:04:23
Speaker
And we talked about our relationships and what we had learned. And now almost probably 135 to 140 episodes later. I'm still doing the podcast. Absolutely love it. And I do support groups also for the neurotypical or allistic partners and for neurodiverse couples. That's really important. Yeah. I love it. I love it all. Yeah.
00:04:46
Speaker
And I'm a social worker, Thomas. So for those folks out there that are in the helping professions that didn't know they were autistic or neurodivergent or that they were in a neurodiverse relationship, you are not alone because we don't learn about these things in school.
Challenges in Neurodiverse Relationships
00:05:04
Speaker
And so we don't recognize, you know, why we're having the differences we're having. Yeah. Sure. Sure. And as I said, it's definitely something that is
00:05:17
Speaker
underrepresented in terms of like the online content that you can see and it's it's kind of crazy because you know the there is a need for it and a lot of people you know really heavily gravitate towards content that that that sort of provides that stuff i think it's very much like an unfilled niche within that's particularly within the the instagram communities but also just in general i think there's some youtubers that might talk about dating and relationships but
00:05:47
Speaker
No one that I've really come across, so it's definitely needed. It is so critically important because when I meet neurodiverse couples, they are oftentimes in so much pain from all the unintentional hurt they have caused each other and then they understand
00:06:11
Speaker
that they have neurological differences. And I shared this with you, Thomas. I know I have a lot of ADHD traits. I don't know if I would get diagnosed because we know women, the whole DSM is really a challenge when it comes to women. That's a whole other podcast. But I know that I overwhelmed my ex-husband with all my ADHD traits that I didn't understand.
00:06:38
Speaker
I didn't know that side of me and so I overwhelmed him and then he created challenges because he didn't know about his neurodiversity either.
00:06:51
Speaker
And there is kind of a common thread for a lot of people where if you have an undiagnosed or unaware neurodiversity, it can often present a lot of issues for people and it can often make them feel somewhat inadequate in lots of different areas in life.
00:07:12
Speaker
Absolutely. In fact, Thomas, and this makes me feel bad every time I think about this, repeatedly my ex-husband would say to me, I cannot meet your expectations. I never feel like I'm good enough for you. And I hear this a lot from the autistic partners and the neurodiverse couples groups.
00:07:31
Speaker
And again, it's because we have different ways of doing everything, right? And we don't understand that the difference is what makes us unique. But if we accept the difference in ourselves and accept the difference in our partners and get to really understand why the differences occur, then we can build a better relationship or decide if the relationship we're in is the right relationship for us.
00:08:00
Speaker
But without that understanding, there can't be acceptance. There's actually a lot of anger and resentment and judgment without the understanding. Yeah. Very, very true. Well, I guess like it would be probably after to sort of kick off and have a look at some of the questions that we've got. I think the place that would be
00:08:27
Speaker
good to start off with is talking about miscommunication, the miscommunication that can happen in neurodiverse relationships.
Communication Strategies for Neurodiverse Couples
00:08:36
Speaker
For me, I'm kind of thinking just from my own personal experience more along the lines of autistic, allistic, or for people that don't know what allistic means, just people who aren't autistic. But I know that you've also had some, you know, had to had some experience with the
00:08:55
Speaker
the other neurodiversity, so it would be interesting to hear a little bit more about that as well. So yeah, I mean, what can that miscommunication look like and why does it happen? Oh my gosh, for so many reasons, Thomas, right?
00:09:11
Speaker
So the first I'll tell you some of the big ones from my marriage and that I didn't understand. So first of all, I am extremely emotional. So whenever I cried or whenever I shared more than one thing with my ex, I
00:09:32
Speaker
flooded him and the flooding led to a shutdown on his part. So what I learned in my next relationships is to bring up one topic or issue at a time if I could prepare my partner ahead of time because of course I have a type and now I pretty much date you know mostly autistic men
00:09:57
Speaker
and more neurodivergent men. I know someone else like that, yeah. There's something that I'm really, really attracted to about a lot of neurodivergent men. They're amazing. So the flooding piece, knowing that sometimes what I needed to do was send a text,
00:10:16
Speaker
or an email and say these are some of the things that are really affecting me right now or that I'd like to talk to you about when would be a good time because I did that after we divorced and the conversations we had after that were so different than the conversations we had in our marriage.
00:10:38
Speaker
because number one, it gave him time to really think about how to address those issues. I wasn't super emotional and flooding him because I had time to think about what I wanted to say, and I could be more concise and specific, which I learned I am or I wasn't in my marriage concise or specific at all, right? So those are important. And then
00:11:05
Speaker
Those are really, really big things, the flooding, being emotional, not being concise and specific, and giving your partner the space and the time to really think through the topics that you want to talk about. I think that's really, really critical. I suppose there's some aspects to that that I could probably tease out a little bit, I think. Go for it.
00:11:27
Speaker
I think that, yeah, I think there's definitely in terms of that kind of prepping people before having like a very serious or perhaps negative or controversial.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah. Well, yeah. Just controversy. Now, what am I saying? My brain is very foggy today. You'll have to be very understanding. Yes. So a confrontation. That's what I'm talking about.
00:12:04
Speaker
I think there's definitely an
Empathy and Emotional Dynamics
00:12:06
Speaker
aspect of, you know, we talk a lot about transitions and I think even in terms of socialising, understanding or having time to ease into a social transition is quite important for me and I think for a lot of people.
00:12:26
Speaker
I think when, you know, I'm looking back at times in my life where, you know, someone's been upset about something and they've kind of just come at me with this, as you said, kind of like a flood of emotions. It's very overwhelming because I'm not in the headspace where I'm like, okay, right, we're talking about something.
00:12:47
Speaker
and also, as you said, you know, having time to think about things, it's really important when you are quite alexithymic and you struggle to identify and understand your own emotions in the moment specifically so having some time to really like understand how you feel about certain things and what you want to say I think can
00:13:11
Speaker
can be really important i think as well it can sometimes be a bit anxiety provoking when someone's like oh right we're going to talk about this at some point yeah i think in every single case that someone has done that with me it's it tends to be a lot more easy
00:13:28
Speaker
You know, I think there's probably another element to miscommunication that might come more from the the autistic side of things, which can be things around like PDA, pathological demand avoidance, which, you know, it's very apparent when we're younger, but when we get into adulthood, it's a little bit different. And whenever there is kind of expectations put on us,
00:13:54
Speaker
to speak or, or we're, you know, thinking about some expectations that someone's going to have for us in a relationship, it can often be quite difficult not to kind of shut down and stuff. Um, in those kinds of situations, like it's kind of like a defense mechanism sometimes when, when someone is, you know, saying, right, this is what I need from you. And you know, the,
00:14:22
Speaker
Expectations are like a very core part of why PDAs occurs. When we have someone who puts expectations on us, that's the main thing. It's not about being difficult or being like aggressive or single-minded or anything. There's a motorbike gone by. It can be very noisy up this road.
00:14:46
Speaker
I think that that's also another thing and I feel like the situations where I've had the most productive conversations which do kind of touch on perhaps negative things is when there is kind of an air of slow pacing to the conversation or you know
00:15:12
Speaker
Totally. Absolutely. And I was guilty of telling off. I was guilty of rushing conversations. I was guilty of not understanding my ex's need for transitions. I mean, all the things that you said, also the issue of intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. Say that three times fast.
00:15:37
Speaker
So I didn't understand that my ex, when he came home from work, what he needed was time alone to decompress. And that
Building Successful Partnerships
00:15:47
Speaker
might be in front of a computer. It might be in front of a TV. It might be sitting alone at the dinner table, eating his dinner by himself. And the thing is, Thomas, I took that personally.
00:15:58
Speaker
So if I had understood that those were things he needed in order for us to have a conversation, we could have avoided so much miscommunication, right? So if you know that you are in a neurodiverse relationship and you know that one or both of you is autistic or neurodivergent, I think one of the most important things is to understand what your needs are
00:16:26
Speaker
and what you want in a relationship and to be able to communicate that with kindness and compassion with your partner.
00:16:34
Speaker
rather than doing it, which this is the way I did it often. I didn't know we were a neurodiverse couple. I was a screamer. I grew up in a house where we screamed, and that's how I got my ex-husband's attention. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine the dysregulation in his nervous system. Every time I opened my mouth, he didn't know if I was gonna scream, if I was gonna speak to him with kindness, love, and compassion.
00:17:00
Speaker
I can't even imagine how that must have felt to him. So I think that miscommunication comes a lot of times from not understanding what each partner needs. Because if you can communicate that to your partner, then if they care about you, especially if they love you, they're going to want to do that. But they're thinking you what they need. And you may be thinking that the same thing vice versa.
00:17:28
Speaker
They never talked about what you need. Right. You've made assumptions and you know what happens when we make assumptions, right? If you assume you make an ass out of you and me, which isn't good, right? Well, we're all kind of the centers of our own universe, aren't we? So we all kind of believe that, oh, I'm experiencing this. I'm a human. So it should be the exact same for every single person. And it isn't. And it isn't. Right.
00:17:57
Speaker
So the other thing that I was not aware of was sensory sensitivities, right? So if we were in a place where there was a lot of extraneous noise, I remember my ex telling me that he could not necessarily hear me or he could not necessarily hear conversation because he was focused on all of the noise around us.
00:18:23
Speaker
And as he got older, I think it got worse for him and I couldn't understand that. I'm like, I'm sitting right next to you. Why can't you hear me? Right. Again, judgment, not a compassionate kind of curious mind. I didn't know about, you know, our neurological differences. I think it's, it's interesting, isn't it, with the, the sensory things, because I came across a concept, I think I was talking to someone about it on a, on a podcast. I think it was,
00:18:53
Speaker
happy
Family Dynamics and Parenting Challenges
00:18:54
Speaker
autistic lady where we were talking about concept called habituation, which is basically like it's best described in terms like someone came up with like the analogy of the snail about habituation. It's like
00:19:08
Speaker
If you were to boop a snail, you know, usually it would kind of, it would go into its shell. And if it came back out and you booped it again, it would go back in its shell. If it came back out, you booped it again, it would be like, hmm, maybe I shouldn't go back in my shell. It's not, you know, it's not a, not a threat.
00:19:27
Speaker
And that's kind of the idea of habituation, whereby things that occur very, very regularly and consistently, your brain kind of tunes them out as things. So if you were to translate that to perhaps the sensory environments, like going to a bar or being in public in town where there's lots of busy stuff going on, lots of people, lots of noises,
00:19:56
Speaker
Most people, they might be able to, well, they are able to kind of tune that out to some extent, whereby it kind of it's kind of like isolating a voice, you know, when someone's talking to you. But when you you're autistic or when you have sensory differences, sometimes it's a lot of the time it can be quite hard to tune that stuff out and actually focus on someone that they're speaking to you.
00:20:24
Speaker
You know, it's like your brain's being, it's like a roundabout and there's loads of traffic coming in from different parts of the roundabout rather than just one car going around and, you know, processing like you would do if you were having a conversation somewhere quite quiet. Yeah. And it can be overwhelming that I didn't know that.
00:20:49
Speaker
You know, I also discovered that when I used a certain tone to my voice, it literally caused pain for my ex-husband and he got special ear, ear buds that were fitted just for his ears so that he wouldn't hear the things that were, you know, painful to him. And I thought, oh my gosh, that's, you know,
00:21:18
Speaker
Is that something to do with volume or is that like the pitch? I think it was the pitch and the volume. So imagine, you know, I took these things personal, you know, I took so much personally. And I think that happens in every relationship, but I think in a neurodiverse relationship, if you understand the underlying reason for the things you're taking personally, you can give your partner grace and hopefully you can accept the differences.
00:21:48
Speaker
But we didn't know. So can you imagine every time I sat next to him or stood next to him, and I think it was on his right side, he would move because my voice, the pitch of my voice, and maybe even how loud I was, hurt his ear. And at first he told me, but then he would just change the location. Yeah. Trying to be kind, but I didn't take it that way.
00:22:16
Speaker
So I think... Yeah, and then you get those non-verbal cues. You're like, oh, they're moving away when I sit down next to them. What are they trying to say? Or what are they trying to insinuate? Yes. Instead of asking, you know, what can we both do? Do I need to walk on this side when we're together? Do I need to talk to you in that ear? Because I didn't really understand the pain and the sensory issues. Yeah.
00:22:45
Speaker
And I think there are so many miscommunications between neurodiverse couples because we don't necessarily understand ourselves, right? Whether we're the holistic partner or the autistic partner. And I think the other thing that I realized is my ex probably was masking for the entire time we were together because he would say to me that he was gonna do things
00:23:15
Speaker
and then not follow through. And I think a lot of times it was because he wanted to meet my needs or expectations. I don't think he ever wanted to disappoint me. For himself, not to feel like he can't do things. Exactly. There's neurotypical expectations. Exactly. And then when he didn't follow through and I became the nag or I became kind of annoying again or judgmental,
00:23:45
Speaker
It caused conflict. And so there was another miscommunication. If he wanted to do it, but he wasn't sure if he was going to be able to, I needed to create kind of emotional safety in our relationship, which I don't think that I did on a regular basis. So then he could say, I'm not sure I can do that.
00:24:06
Speaker
but I'm going to try and this is what I can do right now. This is what I can commit to right now. Or I can't say yes and I had to be okay with a no. And I think a lot of times I wasn't okay with the no because then I didn't understand where the no came from because I didn't understand why... Just kind of felt like just being difficult for the sake of that.
00:24:33
Speaker
or why he could do something yesterday, but he couldn't do it a week later. The same task or request would be denied. And it might be because he was too overloaded, right? And I didn't know and he didn't understand why he couldn't always be consistent in something that could be very simple, you know, like coming home at a certain time from work. So now I understand all those things.
00:25:01
Speaker
but it caused so many problems in miscommunication. I think, you know, there definitely is a kind of a glaring thing for me in terms of miscommunication, particularly between autistic and holistic individuals is the indirect versus indirect, indirect versus direct communication. You know, I have had a lot of situations where
00:25:30
Speaker
I have taken someone's words very directly. A lot of us tend to put a lot of weight on what people say to us, the actual words.
00:25:46
Speaker
best way to describe it is kind of like we take it as it would be written in a book or written in a piece of text rather than the different aspects of the tone and the delivery and the emotions and the facial expressions and the body language that accompany that, which, you know, a lot of holistic individuals may use a lot of.
00:26:11
Speaker
And then on the flip side, a lot of direct communication that we use kind of goes unheard because the level of emotional or tonality changes. It doesn't indicate that it's necessarily as important as we are saying it.
00:26:33
Speaker
Like, I think there's a really good example about, you know, if you go up to someone and say in this kind of tone, you know, I'm feeling 90% of my capacity at the moment, I'm very anxious and I'm going to have a meltdown. You say it like that, and they kind of just say, oh, that's, yeah, do you need any help with that? And it's like, yeah, probably.
00:26:59
Speaker
and it's it's communicated in a way that i'm like i'm being very clear about what exactly is happening but nobody's reacting and in that way whereas if i was to go oh my god i'm so stressed like i'm so anxious and i just my brain is all over the place and i just i can't do all of this and
00:27:18
Speaker
Yeah, people are like, oh my God, okay, okay, let's get you somewhere else, let's get you quiet. I think from both sides, it can often feel like neither one is really getting across what they're wanting to get across because
00:27:35
Speaker
the holistic individual isn't taking the direct communication as seriously as they should and the autistic person is perhaps not picking up on exactly what the indirect communication means in terms of what they say.
00:27:52
Speaker
I think it is a really really big thing that you know even even in relationships that i've had it's something that people forget about you know it's some. It's you know that will forget that you don't necessarily always have that level of expression.
00:28:09
Speaker
as well you know i talk a lot about emotional expression versus emotional explanations you know emotional explanation being explaining describing feelings saying that i'm feeling this way because of this and it makes me feel like this and it's very serious or it's it's not too bad
00:28:31
Speaker
Whereas emotional expression is the way that you deliver it. Those kind of extra indirect aspects to how we're saying things. I love that, Thomas. I absolutely love that. In the neurodiverse couple support groups that I facilitate, one of the things that I suggest to couples is to use either red
00:28:58
Speaker
uh, yellow and green, like cards are just the words. Like I'm at a red, which means I'm like edit 10. I'm going to explode. I cannot talk to you. And just to be able to either use a card or say the word, right. A yellow, you might be able to talk about one non-emotional, you know, not a deep subject for a short amount of time. And then green.
00:29:25
Speaker
I'm good to go you know i have enough energy or whatever but i think when we're just regulated i think this goes for any couple but i think it's really challenging in a nervous relationship when i have a pressing issue that i want to talk to my husband or my partner about.
00:29:44
Speaker
And they're at red, which could, you could use numbers if that's easier for you. And maybe they're at a 10 or a minus 10. Percentages. When your partner shares that with you, you need to respect their boundaries because that's a boundary.
00:30:05
Speaker
That is, if you go into a conversation with me when I'm in this place, you are no longer respecting my boundaries, and I will either explode and melt down possibly, or I'm gonna shut down, and it could be for days, right? And I would notice that for me and my ex-husband, he would shut down.
00:30:31
Speaker
And sometimes I wouldn't really hear from him for days. And then he'd come back to me after he had processed and he had done what he needed to do to decompress. And sometimes he would literally use the exact words that I had said to him when I had overwhelmed him, right? When he was at a 10. So he might have heard what I said, but he wasn't able to process it until he was able to process it.
00:30:59
Speaker
So finding the tools that you can use with your partner when either one of you are at a 10 or are about to explode versus green or one, then you can be able to communicate and hear each other.
00:31:17
Speaker
is you can listen, but you may not hear each other. I think it's, um, it's, it's really out saying that. I mean, that there is like the, I'm using apt a lot. I don't, I don't exactly know. I just like, it's like I go through a list of words. I'm like, this word kind of works for me. This, this one file use apt a lot. That sounds good. Okay.
00:31:38
Speaker
I think you're definitely highlighting an aspect that's very important that I think is often an issue for
00:31:49
Speaker
holistic autistic relationships and that's the social battery and I don't think that a lot of partners of autistic people are really aware of perhaps how much of their social battery that being around someone for like a day or like a weekend can actually eat up like our social battery and we get told like
00:32:14
Speaker
Why don't you go out? Why don't you go and see friends? And we're like, well, I just don't I just don't feel able or, you know, I don't feel in the right headspace to go out. And quite often it's just because, you know, we spent the battery, you know, it's it's it's it's gone. And I think that's, you know, even looking looking at it in a wider scale, you know, sometimes, you know, for me, my my ideal situation in a relationship is that
00:32:43
Speaker
I see my partner like three days a week whereas like the other the other days I'm kind of on my own doing my own thing and that seems to be a good balance for me but you know as we will talk about kind of like the milestones and stuff and sort of managing daily life but I think having an appreciation for just how
00:33:04
Speaker
like quickly, that social battery can be drained even just within the company of another person is quite important, you know, because you need to maintain your friendships because if the relationship breaks down, then you don't have people to rely on that you've talked to. You've not you're not maintaining those those really close connections, which are quite important. And you're always feeling like you're not doing enough. You're not engaging enough with them. You're not seeing them enough.
00:33:35
Speaker
And so there's always the kind of that pressure that like, all right, I need to talk to them now. I need to talk to them at this point. And I have to plan in this amount. And it does start to I think when someone's very adamant that you see them a lot more, it can really just, you know, break down a lot of areas of your life, even if it's stuff like work or let alone friendships. And there's I think I think as well.
00:34:02
Speaker
it is important particularly when that person is not in a good place and you know as you said you really want to talk to them about something I can draw on personal experiences that I've had recently you know my then partner kind of I don't know they
00:34:27
Speaker
They really wanted me to talk to me. And it's something that's happened maybe quite a few times. And I haven't been in the right headspace. I've needed one, two, three days just to kind of process and think about it. And it was in this situation, they rushed it. They were calling me multiple times. And I was like, I really just can't talk, trying to put my boundaries in place.
00:34:54
Speaker
And it wasn't something that that person was, I guess...
00:35:02
Speaker
understanding about, like they took it as me just being difficult. And I think that that's kind of a common thread, I think when people don't understand. Yeah. Oh, you just were you trying to play this weird power move on me? And I'm like, No, no, it's not, it's not that I just literally like, if you want me to process what you're saying, you want to talk about it, I need to be in a good place. And, you know, I think
00:35:33
Speaker
There is something that I could probably touch on, which is sort of related to that, which we could talk about in a different question. Do you think that there's any other kind of common miscommunications that can happen? Yeah, I think the emotional piece is really, really critical in a lot of the neurodiverse couples.
00:35:55
Speaker
because what you talked about with not showing a lot of emotion when you are at your wit's end. That flat affects the vocal anatomy. Yeah. And like, you know, one of the reasons that I actually moved forward on filing for divorce was because I was in the emergency room. I thought I was having a heart attack. My ex and I were separated. He walked in.
00:36:23
Speaker
And he didn't say hello. He didn't ask me how I was doing. He didn't, you know, hold my hand. He didn't give me a hug, nothing. And then a few minutes later, he screamed at me that he was going to divorce me the next week. Now I know Thomas... That's not very like... But he was overwhelmed. That seems like very poor timing.
00:36:44
Speaker
Right, but he was overwhelmed. He'd never seen me so vulnerable. He'd never seen me in a situation like that. We've been together 32 years and I might have woken him up out of sound sleep. I was looking for that emotional connection and I was looking for that support because I was scared to death.
00:37:05
Speaker
I can't tell you how many couples have shared that a similar type thing happened like a dog died or a parent died or a sibling got diagnosed with a horrible disease like cancer and then they've shared that with their neurodivergent partner and there was not the response they were looking for and I think a lot of times again misunderstanding
00:37:35
Speaker
that the partner may not know exactly what to say because that particular experience has never happened to them before. They don't want to say the wrong thing. I think for those of us that are not autistic, when we're having those crises, we need to be able to say to our partner, what I need from you right now
00:37:59
Speaker
is for you to hold my hand. What I need from you right now is for you to sit here and sit next to me and just hold me while I cry. And I know sometimes that's hard to do when you're emotional, but if my partner doesn't feel emotions the way I do or doesn't process them the way I do, I'm going to see him as bad for that. I'm going to judge him.
00:38:29
Speaker
when really he may be kind of scared and he doesn't know what to do. And I think that's what happened over and over again in my marriage. So I literally had to say to my ex, when I'm crying, when I'm upset, the best thing that you can do is walk over to me and give me a hug. And so I know for some people, it feels uncomfortable to ask for the emotional reciprocity or the emotional response you want.
00:39:00
Speaker
It's communication isn't it? And I suppose in kind of looking at what we said earlier or thinking about what we said earlier about
00:39:14
Speaker
you know, you've kind of been the center of the universe and you're kind of thinking everyone works the same way that you do. Like I don't, am I right in thinking that if they've been in that state, that that's not something that they would want? Like they might want some a bit more distance and time to like, think about it. Right. Right. Yes. Because when my ex-husband's mother died, he cried for a few seconds and then that was it.
00:39:42
Speaker
And when his father died, he didn't cry at all. Where I was an absolute mess when my parents died. And I, Thomas, I didn't understand his reaction. I didn't understand his response. I thought he was cold. I thought he was stoic. I thought he was uncaring.
00:40:00
Speaker
And what I realize now is, oh my gosh, he was probably feeling so much inside, but he didn't know what he needed in the moment or how to express his emotions. And I can't remember exactly what happened, but he probably spent a lot of time alone kind of processing his feelings. And I wanted him to talk to me. I wanted him to connect another miscommunication, right? I took a personal,
00:40:27
Speaker
I thought things about him that weren't true. You know, I saw him through a negative lens. And I share all this and I try to be vulnerable and realize what I did wrong as well as what we did wrong as a couple because there are so many couples out there that are unintentionally hurting each other. And it has to stop
00:40:50
Speaker
It has to stop because it's ending relationships. It's causing people to be physically and mentally not healthy and emotionally not healthy. And so that's why I say understanding what your needs are and what you want in a relationship and being clear about what boundaries you need. It can be a game changer in a relationship.
00:41:15
Speaker
but you then understand each partner has to understand themselves and feel like they can communicate that to their partner and that their partner's not going to judge them, right? So, I think we're having different needs.
00:41:30
Speaker
I think it's definitely something like, I'm just kind of thinking about myself in those kinds of situations. I had a podcast with autism from the inside, Paul McCallough, which I think you know.
00:41:47
Speaker
But we were talking about that and he brought up like a very sort of aspect of Alexify me, which I resonated with a lot. And that's kind of being good in emergency situations, but not necessarily with the emotional component of it. It's like when we're in an emergency situation, we're very
00:42:12
Speaker
helpful in terms of logic how do we get over this what you need to do you know grounding people but perhaps not not the immediate emotional responses that a lot of people might have and and also i think that there is an aspect of like specifically for myself when
00:42:30
Speaker
someone's telling me something that's fairly emotional and raw or open or vulnerable, I feel that I don't engage as much. My way of respecting or understanding is that is by processing it very, very, very, very heavily.
00:42:52
Speaker
I don't, you know, I look off into the distance. I kind of focus in on exactly what they're saying and try to think about what it means for them, what it would I would feel in that situation. And while I'm doing all of that, I'm just kind of a bit more stone face and I'm just kind of like looking off into the distance. And it's, you know, I'm feeling those emotions very, very intensely. And I'm like, God, like,
00:43:17
Speaker
But it doesn't necessarily appear that way on the outside. It could just look like I'm not really listening and I'm just kind of not contributing, not trying to help them. And it's the same with a lot of autistic people that I've met. When they're expressing something, they just speak about it and they just
00:43:43
Speaker
They don't necessarily have that aspect of getting upset or getting emotional. They may get emotional upset later on when they kind of process those emotions and what those events mean to them. But in the moment, it's very much like this. I'm a sponge and I'm just absorbing what's happening, what they're saying and how they're feeling.
00:44:08
Speaker
So I feel like sometimes that can be miscommunicated. Absolutely. Usually when people like think of people who are really listening to them, they make eye contacts much more than usual and they make the faces and they're like asking questions and they're saying, yeah, yeah, I get you. Yeah. Yeah. And stuff like that. All stuff that stops you from
00:44:33
Speaker
processing exactly what that person's saying, especially for an autistic person. When you're trying to focus too much on that indirect communication, you're not really sitting with what people are saying. So it's interesting that kind of dynamic. And it's a major miscommunication. It might be one of the
00:44:59
Speaker
most serious ones because when I'm looking for that emotional reciprocity and I'm looking for you to shake your head and I'm looking for you to go, uh-huh, I hear you, I understand or I hear that must have been difficult and I'm looking for validation and I'm looking for some feedback and you're not giving it to me and I don't know you're autistic or I don't know you're neurodivergent or I know nothing about neurodiversity, I'm judging you.
00:45:26
Speaker
And I know, you know, your listeners are going to do not, right? You're going to feel anything. How could you not validate what I'm saying? And exactly. So, so here's one of the things that I say to couples. I say, when you're having a conversation with each other,
00:45:44
Speaker
and you know what you need from your partner, ask for it. So if you need validation, you can say, I'm going to share what happened at work and I need your validation. Meaning I need you to say, I understand. That sounds like it was really hard for you. And you can even come up with a few sentences that can be used repeatedly. Or I just need you to listen. And I just need you to hold my hand and snuggle with me while I talk.
00:46:13
Speaker
you know, while I word vomit, right? Or I need you to help me come up with a solution because your brain works differently than mine. And when you can ask for what you need,
00:46:29
Speaker
while you're having that conversation, then you set your partner up for success. I didn't do that. So every conversation we had, you know, I might be looking for different things, but I wasn't clear and concise about what I needed and wanted. Because I don't even know if I knew half the time, right?
00:46:48
Speaker
So I think definitely like the snuggling, the snuggling and the hand holding and the kind of aspects where you don't have to like look at each other and you can just kind of get that, that validation through touch is also, I think.
00:47:04
Speaker
something that works quite well because you don't necessarily have to think about all those indirect things. You can just kind of sit there and listen and comfort your partner with touch. And I think that's a very important part of that. Yeah, I agree with that. Definitely. And the emergency response piece, Thomas, I'm 100% in agreement with you. I think a lot of folks who are first responders in law enforcement,
00:47:34
Speaker
I know, I know many of them. It's a perfect fit. To some degree, I think some of the sensory and social components can be like...
00:47:47
Speaker
Yeah. You know, it'll be interesting to do a study. What is like the paramedic and like the first responders kind of statistics on autism? Because that could be something that, you know, I see myself in that situation. If I see someone hurt or I see someone not in a good place, I'm always like, damn, like I'm going for it. And
00:48:09
Speaker
Yeah. And my ex was the same way. Yeah, like we would see somebody who was hurt or an accident and he would stop and possibly see if there's anything we could do or whatever. I would be like, keep going. I don't want to see anything. I don't want to see any blood or gore or dead people keep going. I can't do this because I would get overwhelming
00:48:30
Speaker
like anxiety from seeing people hurt. I could not. I felt too much. Yeah. He was able to kind of remove himself from it and just act in the emergency situation in the best way possible, unless it was me. He could do it with our daughter, but he didn't do it well with me. Yeah. So.
00:48:50
Speaker
It's interesting. I think that the last thing that I would really like to talk about, which is I think I would probably say another one of the biggest ones is stuff to do with cognitive empathy. And I've talked about this before, and there's been a lot of autistic people who've come back to me and say, oh, I understand these situations. Don't tell me that I don't understand these aspects.
00:49:17
Speaker
But it's very well researched and a lot of autistic people do tend to lack this aspect of cognitive empathy in the context of an allistic individual. In the context of autism, it's not an issue because you don't need to have that aspect of it because it's sort of, you know, it's understood anyway.
00:49:38
Speaker
but in terms of like picking up on signals that your indirect signals that you're trying to drop to them or certain behavioral differences that you do in order to communicate how you're feeling anything that's not explicitly characterisable as an emotion like if you're crying obviously we know that you're upset
00:50:04
Speaker
If you're becoming quiet and you're giving shorter sentences and you kind of have a bit more of a lower vocal tonality, we may be able to say, you know, what's happening? You're acting differently. But a lot of people, when you do that,
00:50:24
Speaker
they say they're okay. And they're like, oh, okay, direct communication, you must be okay then, great. You know, and so you have that situation where I think there's a concept that I'm not totally on board with it, but like the idea of like the Cassandra syndrome that's talked about a lot.
00:50:45
Speaker
You know that Feeling unemotion unemotionally heard by by your partner and people not really believing you that you they're like that
00:50:55
Speaker
I don't think that's necessarily right because it's a lot to do with that miscommunication. On one side, if the autistic person is really hyper aware of that, they will be asking you all the time if there's any differences to the indirect communication that seems to be coming across.
00:51:17
Speaker
and on the other side the person will feel like oh hey actually they don't care about how I feel and they don't pick up on this stuff and they're just kind of brushing off even though I'm making it obvious to them
00:51:30
Speaker
No, they're not. If you communicate directly, that's always going to cancel out that feeling of, you know, what's up because of the indirect stuff. So you get a lot of situations where people are like, they don't care about me, they care about me in these ways. And I say, you know, have you told them that you're feeling a certain way? No, no, I haven't. They should just read my mind.
00:51:58
Speaker
But I think that's something that even a lot of just neurotypical relationships struggle with to a certain degree. It's just a lot more heightened. And it's kind of like if you have situations where that person is trying to communicate indirectly, very subtly over a long period of time, it comes to a breaking point with like, why don't you care about me? And all this emotion just comes out and you're like,
00:52:27
Speaker
What is happening like i didn't know you were not feeling okay you know so you have that kind of reactivity just off the block and it kind of it feels like it just comes out of nowhere. It just comes out of nowhere and it's very it's very.
00:52:47
Speaker
frightening sometimes just just like for us you know feeling like at any moment a partner could just tell us that you know we're not being a good partner and that we were not caring about our feelings and i'm like i can't remember a time when i when i didn't you didn't say that you were feeling that way and i'm like well i didn't need to say that i didn't you should have picked it up like
00:53:11
Speaker
So you have situations like that. Yeah, where you fly on the wall of my marriage for 30 years. That's exactly what happened. That's exactly what happened, Thomas. So the Cassandra syndrome was coined by Maxine Astin.
00:53:28
Speaker
And I think that if we kind of take it apart, like we peel the onion a little bit, I think it's about misunderstanding. I think it's about miscommunication. I think it's about not being clear what we each want to need.
00:53:44
Speaker
I think it's about having different perspectives and not respecting each other's perspectives. I think it's about so many things that we didn't understand when Cassandra's syndrome was coined as a term. It's a very pathologizing thing that's very medical model kind of autism is the problem.
00:54:06
Speaker
And looking on my relationships and talking to other people, they feel the exact same thing. They don't feel like what they're communicating is being heard because it's not, you don't have those indirect aspects to it and the other person doesn't understand. So I would agree with you there. The miscommunication is definitely the core of that kind of thing.
00:54:30
Speaker
Yeah, and the double empathy piece, right? Because there are so many couples that don't have empathy for each other's way of doing things or way of communicating. And so there's that constant judgment. I mean, that's what happened over and over again in my marriage. And thank goodness that I learned about neurodiversity because I would have kept making the same mistakes in every relationship thereafter, right?
00:54:59
Speaker
If you don't know better, how can you do better, right? So now, you know, I ask when we have an emotional issue that we need to talk about or something that's pretty deep and is going to take more than a five-minute conversation, where's the best way for me to approach you so that we can have that conversation when we're both in a good place? I would have never done that in my marriage, ever.
00:55:25
Speaker
You know, um, another area that we didn't talk about is like vacations. I know a lot of the vacations that we went on. Oh my gosh. There were lots of arguments and fights with anger, right? Because I didn't understand, I didn't understand the overload, right? I didn't understand the routine changes, new places, new beds, new bathroom, new everything.
00:55:53
Speaker
And again, I don't think my ex understood what he needed. And oftentimes he would end up sleeping till two, three, four o'clock in the afternoon on vacation. I'm like, I've already been out for six hours and you're still in bed, right? So here's another place where we had repeated conflict. And here you are spending money, Thomas. You're going on vacation thinking you're going to be able to wind down and enjoy yourselves.
00:56:21
Speaker
And then because you don't understand each other's needs, there's conflict and judgment, right? Well, they need that kind of time to adjust to the new environment and to feel comfortable. Right, right, right, right. And even like sitting on a plane for hours and not being able to get up and walk out, you know, and have your own quiet time. And what if there are kids or babies crying on the plane or there's turbulence?
00:56:49
Speaker
You know, all those things that we don't take into consideration can be really challenging. So I think the Cassandra syndrome is something that a lot of folks feel comfortable talking about if they're the holistic or neurotypical partner, but I don't think the double empathy piece is something that enough people are talking about, right?
00:57:13
Speaker
And I think it's critical. Any relationships you need that sense of compromise and that's the same with... I think that's even more important in neurodiverse relationships. There are so many things that you can bring to the relationship when you're of a different neurotype, different perspectives, different ways of viewing things and tackling problems that are in their lives.
00:57:39
Speaker
And obviously there are those things that need to be understood first and also to be communicated about, talked about, managed and interpersonally over a long period of time. It's not like you say it once and it's completely embedded for the rest of the time.
00:58:01
Speaker
You know, there's been a lot of circumstances where people have understood, you know, that I make a lot of content about autism and people kind of understood that, you know, I work this way and this is just how I am. And I'm not going to magically change and switch. And, you know, there are some things that you need to meet me on and I understand there's some, some ways that I need to meet you on as well.
00:58:29
Speaker
And not necessarily, you know, it's, it's, it is a compromise. I mean, with any relationship, it's kind of like a, it's, it's somewhat of a loose idea of a contract in certain circumstances. You know, you are getting something from the other person. You are giving something to that person as well. It's a bit businessy to think of it like that, but I think it's definitely worth highlighting.
00:58:55
Speaker
Yeah, because imagine if you got into a relationship and you could be honest about these are the five things that I want you to know about me, right? That are really critical, right? Maybe something regarding the emotional piece, maybe something regarding the sensory piece, maybe something regarding, you know, taking trips and transitions and change.
00:59:18
Speaker
Maybe something regarding how you process and communicate or like to communicate. What if you could share those things after the first date? Don't share them on the first date, right? Don't want to spill all this information on the first date because you might scare somebody away, but maybe like the third or the fourth. So you need to do this and this and here's the form and here's an integration pamphlet. You're going to have to read all and memorize all of these. Yes, and sign on the dotted line if you want a second date, right?
00:59:47
Speaker
Yeah, but imagine if you knew those things about yourself and you could communicate them in a kind compassionate way to your potential partner, right? So that's one of the reasons I created the neurodiverse love conversation cards.
01:00:03
Speaker
And I don't remember if I said them. I think I said them. You did send them, yeah. So those are 52 questions. I wish my ex-husband and I had asked each other early on in our relationship because if we had understood how the other needed or processed all those topics, oh my gosh, we would have avoided so much conflict and so much judgment, so much.
01:00:28
Speaker
And I think we don't even know the right questions to ask each other oftentimes, you know? What do you need when you're transitioning from work to home? I wouldn't think to ask that of my ex-husband, but now I was. But it's not that kind of romanticized mainstream idea of
01:00:57
Speaker
how relationships should run. It's like, oh, your husband returns from a day of work. And you're like, oh, hi, honey, the dinner's already, sit down, let's have a conversation and have a meal and all this stuff. And then let's do this and that. And it's like, oh my God, Jesus, that's a lot to do after you've burnt yourself out from a day of work. Great. And imagine if neurodiverse couples understood that at the beginning of their relationship.
01:01:27
Speaker
Right? And Thomas, you're a lot younger than me, right? I'm 59. You're my daughter's age.
01:01:34
Speaker
And so your generation is coming into the dating world knowing so much about neurodiversity, which we didn't when I was dating. My ex and I, we started dating at 21, we married at 23. There was no such diagnosis as autism spectrum disorder. Autism was something that you saw in children, right?
01:01:59
Speaker
And there were other diagnoses for adults. I mean, it could be even schizophrenia. There was anxiety and depression and all these other things that we didn't know autism in adults. And now your generation and the generations that come after you have this knowledge and you can have these conversations with your partner and you can say, I want to understand how your brain is wired. I want to understand what makes you work well
01:02:28
Speaker
in a relationship. I would have never said that. You're definitely right on that part. There is the knowledge outlet. I wish that it was more of a mainstream conversation because that's the relationships that people need that in. If someone's already part of the autistic community, they can talk to their partner about these things.
01:02:54
Speaker
It's not everyone though, and it's probably not, might not even be a majority of autistic people who have that. And then talking about relationships and dating, that's also very niche within a niche of, you know, the autistic community. It definitely, it's there. I just wish that it was more accessible to people because
01:03:16
Speaker
You know, I get a lot of people who come on to like my life, so they send me messages and they're like, hey, this this happened. It really helped me understand my partner. And we've had conversations about and it's like, good, that is that is brilliant. But not a lot of people, you know, would would perhaps search for things like that and find stuff around that. And perhaps they don't even know that they're diagnosed or not.
01:03:40
Speaker
I would also say that there are additional issues with dating nowadays, which I think probably would make the process very, very complex and difficult. You can imagine situations where people are kind of
01:03:56
Speaker
have this, this phone and they can swipe and they can find people. And if something minute happens in the relationship, they're like, Oh, this is like a power thing. And I'm going to be independent. I'm going to push them away. And I'm, you know, they're not, when I'm going to talk over and develop things further and communicate about it is done. It's done. I'm not having it. I'm going to go find another one. It's going to be easy.
01:04:23
Speaker
I totally can relate. I actually did an episode on, I think we called it something like, am I dating somebody who's autistic around the spectrum? And I think that, remember I'm 59, right? So a lot of the men that are on the dating apps, what's interesting is they're in IT, they're engineers, they're in finance.
01:04:51
Speaker
And many of them, when you go out on a date with them, you talk to them. This is a generalization. So I hope your listeners will see it as that. I'm just putting this out there. Many of them ended their relationship or multiple relationships. And oftentimes it's marriages. I can't tell you how many men I've gone out with or talked to who've been in two or three marriages.
01:05:18
Speaker
Remember, they're my age or older and they're trying to figure out how to get this right. They do not know that they're neurodivergent. They do not know that they're autistic. But when I tell them that I have a podcast called Neurodiverse Love,
01:05:34
Speaker
They're like, what is that about? And I tell them. Yeah. And I have to explain what neurodiverse means. And I can't tell you, I probably had a half a dozen men listen to the podcast and say, I think I'm autistic.
01:05:53
Speaker
So I'm like, and these are men in their fifties and sixties. I think that is a, I think it's really underrated. Just like, I think it's good to think about the experiences that we have, but with relationships, it's such more, much more of such a like an emotional investment and it's such more of like a time spent with another person that if you have experiences which are
01:06:19
Speaker
similar in terms of relationship. I feel like that's very compelling evidence, like, you know, because it is it's a clash of an autistic and an allistic person and living and, you know, so that those differences are obviously going to show up a lot more. So I think definitely I can I can see why.
01:06:44
Speaker
I am aware that we've been chatting for a while and we've only kind of gone with the first question that I was going to ask. I think it would be really good to have you back on at another point to talk about perhaps the more dating side of things. Okay. Anytime. And sort of how to, I guess, the more kind of finding a partner and sort of the early stages of things, if that would be okay. Absolutely.
01:07:12
Speaker
But I'd love to talk a little bit about kind of the challenges or the positives to neurodivergent relationships, but also about like life milestones, things like moving in together, holidays, as you mentioned a little bit about getting married, engagements, what that means. What are, you know, all of that stuff.
01:07:39
Speaker
I kind of started off phrasing it as a question and now it's not, but do you get what I'm asking? Yeah, absolutely. So I think there are major milestones that occur as your relationship moves on, right? So the first one might be that you're monogamous or that you're
01:08:00
Speaker
dating only each other or you're dating maybe two people or whatever, right? There's something happening that you're more committed to each other. And so being clear about what that looks like.
01:08:13
Speaker
Because one person... I remember my ex saying, because you thought about cheating during our marriage, as far as I'm concerned, you cheated. I didn't understand that logic. Really? Yeah, I didn't understand that logic. But then I had one of my... It's the natural thing that people have curiosity about. It's nothing that you can stop. It's just about...
01:08:36
Speaker
not doing it. Right. But you know what was so interesting, Thomas? One of my autistic co-hosts when I shared that with her, she says, I understand where he was coming from because it hurt him.
01:08:51
Speaker
just as much to know that I was thinking about cheating, or at least this is what she thought, as if I had done it. It was like, for him, there wasn't a differentiation. And so I think being clear about what monogamy means if you're in a relationship with somebody who is a different neurotype, because is monogamy that you can't sleep with anybody else, like have sex with anybody else, or that you can kiss other people,
01:09:21
Speaker
Right? So being clear about what the definition is. So those boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a... As I said, it's like a contract, isn't it? It's like, which, you know, with two adults consenting to a relationship, you don't have to follow all of the things that the mainstream is telling you that you need to do. You just need to both be agreeing to it. Right.
01:09:44
Speaker
because then the guy I fell in love with after my divorce, he said to me, he didn't consider cheating unless he slept with the person. So kissing somebody, going out on dates, wasn't cheating. Okay, we need to understand that, right? So that's the first milestone that could literally break the relationship, right? You cheated on me, no I did, right?
01:10:11
Speaker
You bring up an experience that I've had. Okay. Well, I've never cheated on anyone or anything like that, but I have.
01:10:23
Speaker
been in a lot of situations where I didn't understand that the situation was a date, or it was something akin to a date, or the conversations that we were having were akin to not a conversation with a friend. And that's because I didn't really understand the greater social context of what was happening. And it goes so far even with flirting, you know?
01:10:49
Speaker
And to be honest, it is a very misunderstood idea that flirting is just very easily characterisable. It is to a certain extent, it's very explicit when you are making sexual references and things of that nature.
01:11:09
Speaker
But for the majority of situations, sometimes for some people, just having an interest and talking to someone or if still talking to someone, if they put the hand on your shoulder and, you know, perhaps like tap your leg or like, you know, so it's very gray, that area and
01:11:33
Speaker
I think that there has been times in my life where I've understood my relationship with someone as a friend, but then, you know, looking back, it didn't really seem like that was how that went, but I didn't flirt with them, I didn't confess my love, I didn't kiss them, I didn't do anything.
01:11:54
Speaker
Um, but you know, I, I did go and have a drink with them or something like, uh, you know, very much on their side, it might, the person that I went for a drink with, they might be like, Oh, this, this is a date that that's happening. But it, but it's not in my head. And I'm like, right. I'm not going for it. I'm going for a drink with a friend. And you know, it's not really understanding the other person's intentions with me.
01:12:23
Speaker
Yeah. So sometimes I think it's, it's best just to ask, you know, is this a date or are we just going as friends in that particular situation? If you're going out with somebody that you could potentially be in a relationship with. I was very young. I was very young. It was like, well, one time age of 14, one time the age of, age of 18, 19.
01:12:47
Speaker
I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. My ex talked about those kind of situations in middle school too where these girls had crutches on him and he didn't know and he didn't know what to do. Yeah. And he looks back and it just, when you see it through a different lens, you're like, oh my gosh, I could have had that girl or whatever. Oh yeah. Understanding flirting is elusive. In the dating context, but also. I think it's hard for a lot of people.
01:13:17
Speaker
Yeah. So I think that... Because it's individual, isn't it, to the person as well, isn't it? Because it's not like this easily understood concept. Yeah. There's no playbook. There's no dictionary or encyclopedia of different ways to flirt because everybody does it differently, right? Yeah. I think that that's hard for a lot of people. So understanding kind of
01:13:41
Speaker
hate to use the word defining, but I'm going to use it for lack of a better term, defining what kind of relationship you're in, I think is the first major maybe transition. And then if you decide that you're going to move in with each other, I can't tell you, excuse me, how many of the holistic or neurotypical partners who come to my support group are like, I
01:14:06
Speaker
Everything changed after we moved in with each other. Everything changed. We were either in a long distance relationship. We talked every night. We had this great connection when we would see each other. It was usually for a few days. The sex was great. The conversation was great. We had so much fun that we moved in with each other and I don't even recognize the person I'm with, right?
01:14:26
Speaker
And so being, again, very clear about what you need. So do you need your own separate bedroom? Do you need your own separate office? Do you want to eat meals alone? Do you need time in the morning to have your coffee and read and whatever and how much time do you need? Again, you're not clear about those things yourself and you're not comfortable talking
01:14:55
Speaker
with your potential partner about those things, you're gonna have a lot of conflict when you move in with each other. I guarantee you, right? So being clear about looking at what you need while you're living alone or if you're living with your parents or if you're living with a roommate, what is it that brings you peace and joy?
01:15:15
Speaker
writing that down and communicating it with your partner for both partners, right? Because for me, I didn't communicate to my ex-husband that eating meals together every night was so important. And in his family, they didn't do it.
01:15:30
Speaker
up just popping on to say thank you for listening to this podcast thus far if you could do me a real solid please make sure to rate the podcast if you're in a podcasting streaming service and do all that like subscribe comment stuff on youtube damn even send a heart in the comments if you don't feel like typing
01:15:49
Speaker
Make sure to check out my link tree, which is always down below in the description or head over to my Instagram page at Thomas Henley UK for daily blogs, podcast updates and weekly lives. This podcast is sponsored by my favorite noise cancelling noise reducing earbuds that you can adjust the volume on. Really, really great thing. They're called D buds and you can find the affiliate link down in the description of this podcast for a 15 percent off discount.
01:16:19
Speaker
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast. That's all from me. So we were talking about sort of the transition into housing, living together, which is, I think, something that I relate to a lot because I think one of the issues that I have, particularly in a lot of the relationships that I've had is making the commitment and moving and living with somebody because
01:16:49
Speaker
I feel like it's, you know, when you're in those situations where you both have your own house and stuff, there's a little bit more of a kind of a boundary between that. And I have tried moving in with someone before. It was kind of during Covid and
01:17:09
Speaker
I think it was very difficult because the time that we did spend together outside of living together you know is a lot more broken up like there was times where we'd see each other and times where we wouldn't and so when we moved in together it was kind of the situation where
01:17:28
Speaker
I felt like they were on top of me all the time and they were wanting to have the interaction that we would have like when we would see each other on a less frequent basis, which is not how social batteries work. So there'd be a lot of situations where I like, right, okay, I need to
01:17:49
Speaker
to be on my own. They'd be like, are you OK in there? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm good. I just need some time on my own and to focus on what I need to do. And yeah, I found that really difficult. And also, you know, it was it was a situation where we didn't have separate rooms to be in stuff. So I think that was a difficulty. Yeah, I really relate to that aspect of life milestones and stuff. I think another aspects of life milestones is children.
01:18:19
Speaker
Yes. That's a big one. I don't have any experience with that. And I have 26 years experience with that. So yeah, I think it's a big one. And you know, now that I think about it, the first apartment my ex-husband and I moved into had two bedrooms.
01:18:37
Speaker
And I think having two bedrooms, and we didn't, of course, we didn't know we were a neurodiverse couple at the time, may have been a saving grace because we made one a bedroom and we made one a studio for him because he was very creative and liked to record. And so he could spend as much time as he needed to in there. And we set each other up for success without even knowing it, right? Which may have been a good thing, right?
01:19:05
Speaker
But then when we had our daughter, I have to tell you, my ex, when we were dating and getting serious, he said to me, Thomas, I don't want to have any children. And I think he knew himself better than he realized. And I said, well, if you don't, then I'm not the right person for you. But in like a minute, he said, oh, no, no, I'll have one.
01:19:26
Speaker
but we have to wait five years. So he gave himself that time, right? And I'm like, okay, I can wait five years. Remember we were like 21 years old, 22. So the five turned into nine years that we waited and it was because he was never ready. And so I think for your listeners, it's really important to listen to your partner. If they say they don't want to have children, believe them.
01:19:54
Speaker
right? Don't pressure them into having children, right? So I think that's really important. And then think about what you can do to prepare if you both agree you're going to have children, you know, when is it going to be and what can you do to prepare because there are going to be constant changes, literally minute by minute throughout your day.
01:20:17
Speaker
any routine that you thought you had and was important to your wellbeing is probably going to go out the door. And if you are not flexible with your routine, it's going to create conflict with your partner, right? So I do have to give my ex-husband credit because during the first few years of our daughter's life, he created a beautiful routine for her.
01:20:45
Speaker
And because he was able to do that, it was good for both of them. Now I didn't have the same routine, right? But he regimented her, maybe without even realizing it. So I think in the early years,
01:21:02
Speaker
having a partner who can kind of routinize what can be routinized, like feeding schedules and sleeping schedules and bathing schedules can be really helpful. But having that discussion is really critical, right? The other thing I think is a lot of times, I babysat for
01:21:23
Speaker
for years and years and years. So I knew how to change a baby's diaper and how to bathe a baby and all that stuff. And my ex had never done all that. So to have that conversation ahead of time, like who's going to take on what responsibilities and how can we share them? Who's going to wake up in the middle of the night when the baby is crying? Cause that's going to happen every single night, maybe multiple times. Who's going to feed the baby?
01:21:49
Speaker
And then you have to think about the sensory sensitivities too. Because I have had neurodiverse couples talk about how one partner, usually it's the autistic partner, may have a sensitivity to water and splashing. And so they're not able to bathe the kids or it's very difficult. And you know, that sensory battery goes dead very quickly or gets filled up very quickly. The smells.
01:22:18
Speaker
the touch of things. And babies pick up stuff and eat it and put it in their mouths and you don't know where it's been.
01:22:29
Speaker
So there's a lot of things that you cannot even prepare for, but having a discussion about what you feel comfortable doing and what you are willing to learn how to do, I think is really important. Otherwise, you're going to be in a lot of conflict. So that's a big transition where, yeah, I hear a lot of couples talking about, and it's usually the allistic partner that says,
01:22:53
Speaker
I feel like I'm taking on too much responsibility. But if your partner has never babysat or they've never been with children before, you have an opportunity to teach them, right? Rather than get angry at them, right? And maybe you take a parenting class together.
01:23:11
Speaker
and you figure out together what you can each do that you feel comfortable with and where you may need your parents to come in or siblings or friends to help, whether it's with teaching or transitions. I mean, it does take a village to raise a child sometimes, and it's okay to ask for help. So yeah, having a child can change everything literally overnight, Thomas.
01:23:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. And create a lot of trust. Terrifying. Terrifying. I think it is for a lot of people in general, but then if you're dealing with neurodiversity, there's just so many things that you can't prepare for. And I did a podcast with a woman who is autistic and she was eight months pregnant.
01:24:05
Speaker
And she talked about the pregnancy piece as an autistic woman and how that impacted her and how the healthcare system was not prepared to hear her needs and to hear the challenges she was having because of her neurotype. And that's a whole other podcast probably.
01:24:27
Speaker
But that's important too for those folks that do choose to get pregnant, whether they're non-binary or female at birth, you have to have a healthcare team that understands what you need. So children is a big one. And then Thomas, another transition is as your children are in school,
01:24:51
Speaker
I know one of the things that I realized quickly was my ex went on one field trip and that field trip caused him so much stress because one of the little kids started running away from the group. He said, I will never go on a field trip again. I will never volunteer in the classroom. I will not have anything to do with other people's kids.
01:25:14
Speaker
And again, I didn't understand what was happening. And so all that responsibility was on my shoulders, but I loved doing that, so I didn't see it as a burden.
01:25:26
Speaker
But I think as your children get older and they have their own point of view and they need more from you, being clear about kind of who is going to take what responsibilities and which are really important to share. Like we would share homework assistance and that kind of stuff. Yeah. So, yeah. I'm just kind of thinking about myself personally because, you know, for a good portion of my life up until this point, I kind of
01:25:55
Speaker
I don't really want kids. I have enough on my plate with my mental health and things that I'm doing at the moment which I feel would be exacerbated. I still find the concept of living with another person quite difficult.
01:26:14
Speaker
I think, you know, it's something that I'm a lot more open to. I don't think it's something that I would want to do for a while. I've had kids, but I'm also, you know, if I was to have kids, I think it would be, you know, it would be ideal for me if I could
01:26:32
Speaker
get a kind of a stable income and perhaps have less responsibilities in that area that perhaps I could manage that. But again, it's like, it's the communication aspect of that. It's because some people might be like, yeah, I'd love to take care of the kids more and you can work more. And you know, that would be, but that would be a situation where I'd be like, might be a bit more open to it. Um, it's just, you know,
01:27:00
Speaker
Definitely, it's not something that I feel I can handle at this time in my life, but it is something to think about, definitely. Yeah, and isn't that great that you can be that honest with yourself? I mean, my daughter, she's your age, she does not want to have children. She is absolutely 100% certain about that. And her girlfriend doesn't either, so they're both in agreement on that.
01:27:26
Speaker
So, you know, if you have a partner who wants to have children and you're pretty adamant you don't, of course that could be a deal breaker, right? So that's something you need to discuss before you move in with each other or you start talking about- Not on the first date though. Right, on the first date, maybe- You want kids? You gonna get married? Well, you know what? I mean, I think people are discussing those things upfront, maybe not on the first date, but you know,
01:27:56
Speaker
the third or fourth date because seriously, why waste your time with somebody if that particular issue you are on opposite ends of the spectrum? If you don't want to have kids and they do, even though you're getting along well, you're having a good time, I don't think it's fair to expect that you would change your mind down the road because it's something that they really want.
01:28:22
Speaker
I don't know that my ex-husband should have had kids. I mean, not that he wasn't a good father in the beginning of our daughter's life, but I think it took him off his career trajectory. I do think it affected other areas of his mental and emotional health.
01:28:43
Speaker
And it affected mine. I had postpartum depression for two years. So you never know. You never know what's going to happen. And you never know what kind of child you're going to have, right? You never know if your child's going to have any kind of physical disabilities or developmental disabilities or if our daughter had colic for seven months.
01:29:04
Speaker
she literally cried every night at seven o'clock nonstop for several hours. It was very challenging. So you can't prepare for that stuff, Thomas. So I think another major transition too is family, extended family issues. So I've heard, especially for older couples, you know, in their forties and beyond where there may be a
01:29:31
Speaker
a family member, a parent who needs assistance. And so that may take you away from your relationship or the children or what have you. Or there might be some monetary needs that the parents might have and dealing with that. That could be a major challenge in a relationship.
01:29:51
Speaker
So, I think most couples experience the empty nest syndrome, which happens when your children grow up and they either go to college or they move out on their own. And I think for a lot of neurodiverse couples, that becomes a time when they realize major, major, major differences that had kind of been covered up.
01:30:16
Speaker
because they were both working, they were taking care of the kids, or one of them had more responsibility for the kids, whatever.
01:30:24
Speaker
And then they look at each other. The focus is all on the kids, isn't it? It's kind of a self-sacrificing kind of thing. And with that also comes your needs. Yes. Yes. I suppose when it all kind of goes away again, it's illuminated. It's a bit more kind of to the surface. Yes. That's about the practical, looking after the kids and making sure they're safe and making sure they're teaching them. And I can imagine that, yeah.
01:30:52
Speaker
Yeah, I see a lot of neurodiverse couples and I'm sure a lot of couples in general that get to that point and they haven't really nurtured the relationship at the level they needed to or they haven't really sought to understand each other's needs and wants and dreams. So the relationship may end if they're not able to recommit to each other.
01:31:14
Speaker
So, yeah, what other what other milestones might you want to talk about? Those are the big ones that I can think of. I think that those those are some good ones, definitely. I think it would be it'd be apt, as I said before, like, I think it would be good to maybe have you on at another time to talk about sort of the more dating aspects of things. Sure.
01:31:41
Speaker
because I am aware that we have been chatting for a while. It's about half past midnight in the UK. It's late for you. It's a late one. I've been nibbling away at the food that I have at the side. Yeah, it's very late for you. Is there anything else that you wanted to wrap up with?
01:32:06
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think the last one that I think is really important, I think we could probably talk a bit more briefly on which is, you know, it's kind of a round up to everything. What kind of qualities have you identified or mentalities that you need to have a successful autistic, holistic relationship?
01:32:32
Speaker
The first one is you have to understand yourself. You have to be self-aware. And if you are not... Self-awareness is important. It is number one. How can you explain to your partner what you need if you don't know yourself? And I have had several guests on the Neurodiverse Love podcast who've talked about internal family systems. And I think it is such a wonderful therapeutic model.
01:33:01
Speaker
to use for neurodivergent folks because I think there are so many folks who have been masking their entire lives and they don't even know who they are and they don't know what ways they have been not authentic, that they haven't been true to themselves. So I think that self-awareness is number one. And then to be able to communicate
01:33:27
Speaker
clearly and concisely, which Mona was not good at in her marriage, what it is that you need and you want. And what I would say to your audience is you are not going to get all your needs or wants met in your romantic relationship. It is not going to happen. So understanding that some of those needs and wants are going to be
01:33:52
Speaker
met through work or some kind of volunteering. They're going to be met through friends, through family, through other outside relationships is really critical, right? And then I think
01:34:06
Speaker
understanding what your non-negotiables are. And for me, those are different than boundaries. So you're non-negotiables, like for me and non-negotiable Thomas is, you cheat on me, I'm done. I'm done with the relationship, right? And so I have to define what cheating is, right? Yeah, you're the same.
01:34:26
Speaker
but that's a non-negotiable or you do drugs of a particular type, that's not okay. You need to go for help and we need to work through that. So those might be my non-negotiables. But boundaries are also really important in any relationship, but they may look different in a neurodiverse relationship. So
01:34:49
Speaker
One of the boundaries that I made sure I communicated to my partner after I was divorced, my new partner, was if you scream at me, I will leave the room. I will either go for a car ride or I will go into the other room and I will close the door. And when you're calm, then feel free to either text me or call me or come into the room, but I will not engage in a screaming match with you.
Understanding Dreams and Values in Relationships
01:35:16
Speaker
and I will not be yelled at. So I had to be clear about what I was going to do because you can't change anybody else. And then I think understanding what your dreams are for the future is really, really critical and figuring out if you have compatible dreams
01:35:37
Speaker
And if you can support your partner in achieving those dreams that they have, if they're not compatible, that's okay. But can you support your partner? Like you said, maybe you would consider being the primary person who is taking care of the children, right? You know, raising the children and you might have a partner who really, really wanted to... I'm sorry.
01:35:59
Speaker
The opposite way. That they would take care of the children and you would work? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so if you both want careers and neither one of you wants to stay home with the children, then can you both get to a point in your careers where you could hire somebody to take care of the children, right?
01:36:23
Speaker
if one of you isn't a very social person and on the weekends you just want to stay home and kind of chill, your partner wants to travel, is there a happy medium, right? If one of you really likes going to family events and the other, the anxiety going to family events is just overwhelming and just shuts you down,
01:36:47
Speaker
how can you meet in the middle? And if you can't, can you agree that this is something where you're going to do things differently? But if you don't share what your dreams are at the beginning of the relationship when you're getting serious, like some of the core dreams, I think that you might think you're going the same direction.
01:37:13
Speaker
but you're not necessarily going in the same direction and that can cause conflict. And then I think the last thing is understanding each other's core values. So for me- A lot of people don't even know that. They don't know what their meaning is in life or their purpose. Nobody thinks about it. I know. But it's such an integral part. It's like,
01:37:36
Speaker
trying to find what your value and meaning is through the external things that you do rather than thinking about it and mulling over like, what do I value in myself and other people and the work that I do and the relationships that I have, you know, it's really important.
01:37:56
Speaker
it is so important. And I'm not just talking about values in general, I'm talking about the core values. The non-negotiables are the things that I will not put up with. My core values are the things that I absolutely want in my partner. For me, integrity is a core value. If you say you're going to do something,
01:38:19
Speaker
do it, follow through. If you can't, please let me know at least 24 hours in advance." Now, that may be hard for some people, right? That was a conflict that my ex and I had often. It's a hard thing for a lot of people in the modern dating world. Yeah, right, right. So you can imagine that could cause conflict, but there are people out there that have a similar core value. So
01:38:44
Speaker
And you can go online and you can google a list of core values and you can maybe pick the top five that are of importance to you and at some point as your relationship is moving forward you can share those things and thomas i would highly encourage.
01:39:04
Speaker
folks to listen to the Neurodiverse Love podcast because I have interviewed, I want to say close to 75. It could be even more than that. I've interviewed therapists and coaches. Some are autistic, some are neurodivergent in other ways, and some are
01:39:22
Speaker
Some are allistic, some are neurotypical, so I have the whole gamut. I've interviewed couples who have gotten to the brink of divorce and then found out they were a neurodiverse couple and began to transform their relationship or their marriage.
01:39:40
Speaker
And so hearing other people's stories and the ways in which they approach things can be so helpful. And that's what I try to do. I try to share that information with the world so that fewer people end up hurting each other, really. And I'm not even talking about physical hurt, I'm talking about emotional and spiritual and mental pain.
01:40:07
Speaker
Because that can be so much worse sometimes because it takes much longer oftentimes to heal.
Traits for Relationship Success
01:40:17
Speaker
Yeah.
01:40:18
Speaker
That's a good list. I will add some of my own to that list. I'd say that important traits in people that you meet that I've noticed have been good is that they're open-minded. So if they are willing to listen to your experiences, take on board, try and think about how
01:40:44
Speaker
It might be for you. That's obviously going to be a great thing in any relationship, but very important for neurodiverse relationship. If they're closed-minded, it's not going to work. They're going to have some idea of how the relationship needs to go and how you need to interact and it's just not going to work. Could work, but I think it's highly, highly doubtful. I think the kind of the mentality side of things
01:41:10
Speaker
If someone is not, doesn't have a growth mindset with things, that's also going to be really tough because you need to do a lot of growth in relationships like this. And also a lot of learning and adapting and probably a lot more than most relationships, I would say. Yeah.
01:41:33
Speaker
And having this mentality of, you take me as I am, and if you don't do this and this and this in a relationship, then it's over. You could say that people have a lot of non-negotiables.
01:41:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I was one of those people. Yeah. They're not necessarily like these really cool things, but it's just, it's very kind of narrow-minded and they're not willing to admit when they're wrong and they're not willing to admit where things are miscommunications and not willing to kind of grow. And you know, you need to grow. Growth does not stop after you reach the age of 25 when your brain's developed fully.
01:42:22
Speaker
uh hits after that as well definitely yes i think that's what a lot of people get wrong but um i think i think as well
01:42:32
Speaker
patience is is a is a definitely a virtue in relationships like this both yeah from both parties yes because as we said we miss communications they do happen and even if you're like myself and you know a lot of our autism or like yourself
01:42:53
Speaker
if the other person is perhaps not like that, and things become inflamed, and things become reactive, and things become very emotionally peaking that could not be in another circumstance, then that can sometimes end things. Which, you know, that's something. I think also someone who has
01:43:19
Speaker
more of an independent mind as well I would say because I think the the issue that that I found particularly in my most recent relationship is that people don't really understand the relationship from an outsider's perspective they have this idea of what how neurotypicals should
01:43:44
Speaker
communicate with each other and what a relationship should look like, what that person should do for you, everything and so when you listen so much to outside influence of people who don't understand what autism is or they don't understand like
01:44:01
Speaker
the intricacies of it and the relationship and the communication style that that person has with you, then I think that that can often be really difficult. And it's a hard thing because on the one side, it is important to have those connections and to talk about it with other people.
01:44:22
Speaker
because in a lot of relationships, perhaps some of the more kind of toxic related ones, people do try and isolate you from your friends and family. And that's obviously not good. So it's a careful kind of balance. I think just having an awareness that things are different and people may have reactions to it that to them seem completely justified, but to you, it may not be the case.
Conflict Resolution and Resources
01:44:51
Speaker
So I would say that that's probably definitely quite a big one.
01:44:57
Speaker
No, just being able to remember that that person is different and that all the rules don't necessarily apply to everything. No, and I think being, yeah, and I think being curious because when I found out... Curious was going to be my next one. You jumped the gun on that one. I wish, I wish we had both been curious throughout our marriage, you know?
01:45:22
Speaker
the last whatever nine months when I found out we were a neurodiverse couple, Thomas, I couldn't get my hands on enough books and YouTube videos and everything I could find because I wanted to know, I wanted to understand what did I do wrong? What did he do wrong? What could we do better? How could we transform things? So if you don't have a curious mindset, you're going to judge, you're going to get angry, right? You're going to be quick to react rather than respond.
01:45:53
Speaker
Yeah. And communication, I think would be the last one. Yeah, so critical. Big direct communicator. Yes. And you know what? I want to add one other, and it's something I talk about in the couples groups, is being able to repair after conflict. Because one of the things that happened often in my marriage is my ex would just want to sweep it under the rug because... Sure.
01:46:20
Speaker
It was easier, and I know a lot of people do that, but those conflicts kept coming up. So there are a lot of great books out there on conflict resolution. There's one by Jason Gaddis, G-A-D-D-I-S, and I forget the title. I don't have it here in front of me, but you can Google it. That's excellent. It's one of the best books I've read on that. So if you are afraid of conflict and you're not willing to repair after there's been conflict,
01:46:50
Speaker
that's going to be a challenge in your relationship. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I think we got some good ones there. Yeah. So I think it'd be good to kind of try and wrap things up a wee bit. Yeah, absolutely. So you can go to sleep. Would you like to
01:47:08
Speaker
Yeah. Would you like to give everyone some links? I know you've mentioned about the Neurodiverse Love Podcast, which I highly recommend you check that out. Are there any other places that people can find your work or anything that you'd like to highlight that you've done?
01:47:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's all Neurodiverse Love, so you can go to my website at neurodiverselove.com. I've got lots of books and resources on there, a lot of information. You can also buy the Neurodiverse Love conversation cards by going to my website. They're now only available as a digital download. They're only $11 and there's 52 cards.
01:47:48
Speaker
I'm coming up with a workbook that goes with the cards and that'll be for sale probably in the next few months. And then you can also find me on Instagram at neurodiverse underscore love. And people can email me if they want to ask questions or chat and that email is neurodiverse love the number for the letter you at gmail.com. So it's pretty easy. Neurodiverse love will get you to me.
01:48:17
Speaker
Awesome. And if there are any couples out there that are having challenges and they'd like to join one of the neurodiverse couples support groups that I do, it's $199 and we meet weekly for four weeks. So it's not a big investment and you get to meet other neurodiverse couples. And then I created the Neurodiverse Love GPS Guidebook that I give everybody for free. I don't sell that. Awesome. Yeah.
01:48:46
Speaker
so that you're very established with things. I need to take some notes about setting up my own business. Anything I can do to help, Thomas, I'm happy to. Happy to. That would be very, very much appreciated. Thank you. Cool. Well, if you have enjoyed this,
01:49:05
Speaker
episode of the 40 audio podcast, make sure to like it if you're on YouTube, give it a rating.
Promotion and Gratitude
01:49:11
Speaker
It doesn't have to be anything fancy if it's just a star rating or perhaps your favorite part of this episode. Just how you feel about me, stick that in a comment and a rating over on podcasting streaming services. And if you wanna get notified, get updated, make sure to subscribe on YouTube and follow on some of the
01:49:35
Speaker
Podcasting streaming services like Spotify, Apple, stuff like that. And if you want to check out more of the stuff that I do, my Instagram is at thomashandleyuk. You can find daily blogs over there as well as videos. I also do weekly lives over on YouTube and Instagram. So if any of that piques your interest,
01:49:55
Speaker
head down into the description, click on my link tree. You'll find the sponsor of this podcast episode, dBods, as well as my own merchandise if you want to go check those out. And yeah. So, Mona, do you have your song of the day? Yes. My song of the day is The Way We Were. The Way We Were. Yes, by Barbara Streisand.
01:50:25
Speaker
Yes, I remember you mentioning about it. Yeah. Awesome. Stick that in the playlist. Awesome stuff. I just wanted to thank you because this has been a phenomenal conversation and I really hope it's going to be helpful to a lot of folks out there. Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to coming and chatting as a guest on your part at some point. Yeah.
01:50:51
Speaker
should be really good. You can tell that like I'm a bit tired because my speech apraxia is like coming through quite a bit. I would be exhausted if I were on your time, yeah. It's a constant, it's on the grind. There you go. All that kind of stuff. You said you had one last question. Yeah, yeah. I was just going to ask
01:51:16
Speaker
Mona, have you enjoyed your 4T or 2T experience, which you've already answered for me? Yeah, it's been wonderful. And I just have to thank you for all the amazing work that you do. I've listened to a lot of your podcasts, your shows, and I just think that you are helping so many people out there. And I hope you continue to do the work for the rest of your life because we need more people understanding different neurotypes.
01:51:44
Speaker
Totally. Totally. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you very much for that. I greatly appreciate it. And I would definitely be checking out your pod. I'll speak going through, going through some of the cards that you sent me, having a look at those. I may not be using them for the, for the time being, but once, once I get into a relationship sometime in the future, whenever I feel like it, I will, I will definitely have a look at those. Awesome.
01:52:12
Speaker
So yeah, thank you very much for listening to the 40 Auti podcast today. I hope you've enjoyed it. And I'll see you next week in another episode of the 40 Auti podcast. See you later guys.