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S3 Ep15 Marketing Mastery: A Conversation with Heather Boschke
31 Plays5 days ago
In this episode of the Dial It In podcast, co-hosts Trygve, Dave, and Nicole converse with Heather Boschke, a strategic marketing leader, artist, and author. Heather discusses her frustration with businesses that dismiss the need for creativity, leading to her inviting Heather, an expert in creative marketing. Heather shares her career history, her transition from corporate life to running her own fractional marketing company, Vogel Ventures, and her book series 'Little Birdie Buddies.' The conversation covers topics such as the significance of creativity in business, the importance of having a solid marketing strategy and key messaging, understanding and targeting the right audience, and maintaining work-life balance. Heather emphasizes the necessity of being authentic, setting boundaries, and being unapologetic about one's priorities.
Connect with Heather:
LinkedIn
Vogel Venture
Little Birdie Buddies
Sponsor:
FractionalTactical.com
…
Dial It In Podcast is where we gathered our favorite people together to share their advice on how to drive revenue, through storytelling and without the boring sales jargon. Our primary focus is marketing and sales for manufacturing and B2B service businesses, but we’ll cover topics across the entire spectrum of business. This isn’t a deep, naval-gazing show… we like to have lively chats that are fun, and full of useful insights. Brought to you by BizzyWeb.
Links:
Website: dialitinpodcast.com
BizzyWeb site: bizzyweb.com
Connect with Dave Meyer
Connect with Trygve Olsen
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Dial It In' and Hosts
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to Dial It In, a podcast where we talk with fascinating people about marketing, sales, process improvements, and tricks that they use to grow their businesses. Join me, Dave Meyer, and Trigby Olson of FizzyWeb as we bring you interviews on
00:00:30
Speaker
How are you, Trigby?
The Role of Creativity in Business
00:00:32
Speaker
Grouchy. Oh, that's no good. How can I help? I'm grouchy because at my day job, I talked to, I think third person in a week who said there, my business doesn't require creative thinking. Pretty basic. Okay. Yeah. And I just don't understand that. Every business has all sorts of dynamic creative issues from how you, how you build it, how you attract customers, how you talk to them, how you deal with them.
00:01:07
Speaker
Creativity is really necessary for just everything in business. So I don't know i don't know how to deal with these people. So I brought in an expert. Oh, good, for our talks. But before we do that, do we have a sponsor for today's
Sponsor Introduction: Fractional Tactical
00:01:21
Speaker
episode? We do! Today's episode of Dial It In is brought to you by Fractional Tactical. As a Fractional CMO, your number one goal is to deliver success to each of your clients. With limited crime and resources, you need marketing solutions that are data proven, easy to execute, and repeatable.
00:01:39
Speaker
BusyWeb understands the unique challenges that marketing executives face. That's why we offer customized solutions for our Fractional CMO partners. You can tell us the results you need, and we create the strategy in MarTech Stack to get you there. You have a concrete plan, your clients have measurable results, and you look like a rock star. We hope you get there. Everyone wins. Visit Fractionaltactical dot.com to find your tactical marketing partner today.
00:02:04
Speaker
That's great. And it ah dovetails nicely in who our guest
Guest Intro: Heather Boschke
00:02:07
Speaker
is. Our guest is Heather Boschke. Did I pronounce that right? You did. jaina did good to yeah Heather is a strategic marketing leader with over 20 years of experience spanning Fortune 20 companies to nonprofits.
00:02:19
Speaker
That's obviously a typo. Nobody who looks as good as she does has 20 years experience. Clearly, we're going to have to talk about her skincare regimen. ah She is passionate about helping brands connect with customers in meaningful ways, focusing on creative marketing foundations that allow organizations of any size to benefit from the power of marketing quickly.
Heather's Creative Journey from Corporate to Books
00:02:40
Speaker
She's also an adjunct professor at Metro State University where she teaches undergraduate marketing courses and beyond her marketing expertise. She's an artist and an author known for her children's book series, Little Birdie Buddies, which encourages readers to connect with nature and see their inner beauty through the unique personalities of each bird. Thankfully, the best person I know the best who will ruin a bad mood, it's Heather.
00:03:07
Speaker
that's Hi there. Okay. Welcome. Thanks for having me. I, that's an impressive, impressive bio. Fortune 20 companies. Yeah. Verizon is in the, fo yeah. Thank God. Oh, sure. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's, that's amazing. I want to know about the birds first. Cause I think everybody has a children's book inside them. and You actually have one that's out. So.
00:03:31
Speaker
How did that come about? Yeah, i this whole everything I'm doing in my life right now feels like divine intervention in some way because none of this has been planned. From the fractional work I do to these birds, it's following the yellow brick road. And after COVID locked down, I heard a voice in my heart telling me to draw again. I had not drawn for over 30 years since I was 10 years old.
00:03:54
Speaker
And I used to love it so very much and just got away from it. So this whole journey started with buying a sketchbook. And the first thing I drew was a little chubby chickadee. And some people know my story. My grandpa used to call me Heather Feather. And our first family pet was a little pocket-heeled bird that my parents named Birdie. So birds have just always been the source of joy and love in my life. And so I started of drawing these birds.
00:04:17
Speaker
I got into birding and somewhere along the line, because my illustrations are cute and playful, this collision of, I think there's a children's book because I'm learning lots about birds and combining all of those facts with my playful illustrations, that would make for a really fun children's book. So I went into it thinking, I don't know how I'm going to like writing a book.
00:04:36
Speaker
And so I did Little Birdie Buddies of Minnesota first. I followed that up with Little Birdie Buddies of Wisconsin, because that's where I'm from. And then I put out Little Birdie Babies earlier this year. So I've got three books now and I'll be working on a fourth one over this winter. And it's been the most joy-filled journey. And I don't know, it just feels like I was meant to do this. This feels like part of my purpose, but I never in a million years would have thought this would have been part of my story.
00:05:04
Speaker
So did I hear correctly? You also go birding? Yes, I'm a birder. That's what we're called. All right. See a little bit more about that because my understanding is it's you walking out of the woods with binoculars in a book.
00:05:16
Speaker
Oh, you don't have to have a book. I use an app actually to keep track of my birds. But birding, it's very easy. It just means watching birds. So you can do it from your house at a park on vacation. And so I did
Targeting and Creative Marketing Strategies
00:05:27
Speaker
start to track how many species I've seen. I think I'm 113 right now. And I'm at the point where I need to start getting out of Minnesota if I want to get serious about upping that.
00:05:37
Speaker
that species count, but that's it. You look for birds, you identify them, but you track them, and it's just a lot of fun. And as I'm sure you all know, being in nature, there's something so healing and grounding about that, especially in a world where we are in front of screens all the time. It is just a beautiful way to recenter yourself and realize there's a whole world of magic happening outside of a screen.
00:06:02
Speaker
I couldn't agree more. That birding is one of those things that I think to me is like country music is like when I was 15, 20, I was like, what? that No. And then as I get older, yeah, no, I get it now. It sounds like you've maybe had some heartbreak that you can identify with. but Yeah. Yeah. Country music, especially I i heard a ah really interesting podcast about it is that the The value of country music, especially compared to to like rock music, is that country music is very specific. and that's why and that As opposed to rock music, which is like general. But ah anyway, we're wildly off topic already. okay But I do want to just bring that around because that made me think about the connection with marketing.
00:06:45
Speaker
Your targeting that says nothing is not actually going to mean something to someone, but when someone can look at a piece of content or your website and think, that is me and that is my problem, now we're getting to a place where it means something. So I do, we can just bring that cart right back around. I love it. Great marketing is a creative outlet in itself, right? so Absolutely. and this This is fantastic. Heather, one of the things that I actually saw you live at a conference and at the end of that event, I asked you if you'd be a ah part of our podcast. So the things that really intrigued me about your story was literally the bridging of your corporate life and going through that journey, that hero's journey, if you will, of
00:07:31
Speaker
moving from corporate, completely stressed out, not knowing what to do to where to go, to embracing your creative side and having that completely transform your life. So can you tell us a little bit about your history and where you came from to so that we can get the whole
Heather's Career in Marketing and Embracing Fractional Work
00:07:45
Speaker
story? Yeah. I studied marketing in college and it's something that I just fell in love with at a very young age. like When I learned about the four P's and that marketing is the bridge between companies and customers, it's I just felt the sense of, this is what I'm going to do with my life. like I can get paid to do this. Yes, please. and so I started with Miller Brain Company. I worked for some small companies. That job moved me from Milwaukee to Minneapolis.
00:08:11
Speaker
And then, yeah, I had a 22 year run working for companies like Verizon. I was with them for about 10 years, Radisson Hotel Group, ShopHQ, Minnesota Realtors Association. And in that 22 year journey, it's not very uncommon for people in marketing to get kicked off the wheel and get let go. Oftentimes marketing is the first function to get downsized.
00:08:32
Speaker
So I'd been kicked off the wheel four different times, fired twice, let go twice. And every time I got let go, got kicked off the wheel, I never thought twice about just applying for jobs. And in 2021, I was fired for hopefully the last time. And I was applying for jobs again, because again, I did not think twice about this. I never wanted to be an entrepreneur ever.
00:08:53
Speaker
and five or six conversations with people ended with, can we pay you to help us with marketing? Like what you did over there, could you help us with that? And so it's like the universe said, there's a different path that maybe you should try out. And I entered it very much with test mode. I'm going to try this. And if this doesn't work out, I will just go get a job because I know how to go do that. And that was almost four years ago. And so it's been this really fun,
00:09:21
Speaker
adventure of working with small businesses and leveraging all of the big company best practices that I think people in corporate don't even realize they're collecting when they're sitting in that seat. Because I would have a conversation with a small business owner, rattle off three things, and they would be like, Oh my God, I didn't even think of that. So Superpowers we have sometimes, they're superpowers that they're invisible to us. But make no mistake, if you're sitting in corporate, you are collecting some amazing experiences and best practices that small companies can greatly benefit from. What would you say to somebody who doesn't see the value of marketing their business? They've got they've been in business forever. they They've got their established client base. ah It seems like a hassle.
00:10:06
Speaker
I've got two answers. One is a little bit more flippant. One is I wouldn't say that anything to them because those are not my people. If I need to convince someone that marketing has value, they are not for me because I am not in the business of convincing someone that they need marketing. And if they don't see it, gosh, you know what? So many companies are coming around, like some of the businesses that I've been supporting recently, they come to me and they say, we haven't been doing marketing. It's been working until now.
00:10:33
Speaker
And so they can go a while. You can go a while without marketing and get leads and it's organically happening, but there will come a point that you have not been building your brand. The leads stop and you're sitting there going, Oh my gosh, I don't know actually how to attract people to my business because I don't really stand for anything. I haven't built a brand. Nobody knows who I am. And so I think there's something about hitting that point.
00:10:57
Speaker
and smart companies will obviously engage with people to make sure that point doesn't happen. But when that point does happen, it's no big deal like it happens. Then we engage, let's build a marketing foundation and get you off and running. so it Marketing is something, it's going to come up eventually, but it's very common for small businesses who start with a product, who start with a service that people want. They go on for four years, five years, 10 years even, and then all of a sudden, that the the faucet starts to turn off and they're scratching their heads.
00:11:26
Speaker
It's like what function of brands falling away,
Valuing Marketing and Choosing Clients Wisely
00:11:31
Speaker
do you think? Because your brand gets a really bad rap, I think, because people think it's too high or too high. Hold on, I was like, I'm going to purposefully interrupt, not accidentally interrupt, which is what I normally do.
00:11:44
Speaker
Uh, something that she said is really important. And I think, Dave, you're queuing on her actual good answer. Uh, and I want to roll back to the actual flippant answer because, uh, you said is that that those are not your people. So the sales guy in me says, well, ha ha, I don't believe that. But then the actual person in me says, gosh, I don't think she understands how psychologically healthy and mature that is. That if that they're just not your people, just don't talk to them. Is that something that you learned or is that something you you decided? Because I think if the whole point of this podcast is critical skills, yeah boy, that you just flew right by one of the most important ones of the year.
00:12:22
Speaker
I think it came from sitting in that marketing seat, convincing people for so long. When I was at ShopHQ, I was the VP of marketing in a new department that they were building. So in the past, the creative team would work directly with the merchants and the merchants would say, we want an email, we want a social post.
00:12:40
Speaker
And then all of a sudden there's this marketing arm saying, wait a minute, don't tell us what to do. Tell us, or don't tell us how to do it. Tell us what you're looking to accomplish and we will get to the how. And so I was in the business for a long time of convincing people the value of marketing. And from an education standpoint, I will do that all day long for someone with an open mind, but there are some people that just aren't ready to hear that. And so when I went out on my own, I just thought, I'm done doing that because pushing that bolder uphill is exhausting. like I've got real work to do. I'm not in the business of convincing someone they need me. I work with people who know they need marketing and they're ready for it. Okay. Thank you because I think that's a really important lesson that I don't i think nine times out of 10, nobody really knows how to understand and you just confidently threw it down. and what that Many lessons come from pain and that one was very painful. and so If I get to choose, I want to choose differently.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah. And there's a, there's also a big difference between knowing that and doing that. And you do that, which is a big difference between going, yeah, I really shouldn't work with people I don't like. So thank you, Dave, for letting me interrupt you. Go go back to your question. art So as we look at this, so going with what works and how that comes up, the brand side and what I think many people, especially in so SMBs, small businesses, don't really understand is that.
00:14:02
Speaker
Brand isn't some fancy thing that people with handlebar mustaches and monocles use to talk down to you. that It's really a who you are to the people that matter most to you. So how do you, especially when you're starting out with a new fractional client, how do you get them to buy into, we need to work on who you are, yeah not just what the best buzzword is.
00:14:29
Speaker
Yeah. Oftentimes I start with, and I call it key messaging. That's one of the services I offer. And it's basically the output is a document that is their foundation of words that clearly articulates their value, how they're different, why that matters. And usually it's a very quick conversation that starts with, okay, you tell me what you do. And then I'll go to their website and I'll say,
00:14:50
Speaker
That's not exactly what you're saying on your website or your social media is not reflecting that. So usually what they're saying they do, or they might say, and they'll stumble on their words and it's, you need to confidently be able to say how you help companies, businesses, other people. And so usually that exercise gets them to a place where they realize they don't have a strong foundation.
00:15:11
Speaker
that includes value prop and can clearly articulate their value. And so we can start with that little stumble and say, okay, that's why this key messaging is so important. And before we even start to talk about optimizing your marketing channels, I need you to be able to talk about what you do with confidence. Perfect. yeah And I think that's, that's usually the in between the flippant answer and the good answer is usually that's, that's where where the the right answer lies is. If everything you had was working, what, then what am I doing? we don't have a prop Sorry, go ahead. sir And why do you have a problem?
00:15:44
Speaker
that And that is just it. If someone's coming to you, there is something not right. And so again, trying to be in the business of convincing them, it's, wait a minute, you're already coming to me because website traffic's down or sales is down or something happened where you lost a deal. Like you're ready to take things to the next level. And brand is the avenue to do that. It is the most.
00:16:06
Speaker
I guess if you think about protecting yourself and your company, brand is the only way to do that, especially in a world of AI where mediocrity is rampant and it's free. And so the way you can build your moat is by building a strong brand. And brand, when you think about brand, it's just the game of memory. Can companies remember you? And if they can't, you're not doing it right.
00:16:32
Speaker
I think the idea that you just threw down again, just that you rolled over of mediocrity is rampant and free is awful time echoing in my soul a little. So part of your bio is you're a teacher. So let's have you teach the class a little. What are the basic foundational elements that every business needs to implement to market their business correctly?
00:16:52
Speaker
I take a look again, that key messaging, that foundational collection of words, to me, that is the most important. And then it's a conversation of who is your target audience? You don't have to be on TikTok. You don't have to be on Instagram if that's not where your audience is. So this idea of audience marketing, not marketing to everyone, and people can get very caught up in doing what everyone else is doing. And it's, if you are going after, I think about my bird business.
00:17:17
Speaker
I do super well with women over 60. So I am where they are. And so thinking about that versus showing up where everyone is. I've got a friend who they go on some TV station and they talk about what they do as a thought leader. And then what happens is people contact them about their services, but they're not for the entry level person.
00:17:40
Speaker
So they're doing something. Yes, it's getting to the masses. Yes, it's thought leadership and you can argue some brand awareness, but the people they are getting as a result are not their people. So again, we have to think about who do we want to buy our products? Who is going to buy more of them? And if we're not finding them where they are, fundamentally, nothing we do matters. So key messaging, target audience, that is marketing channel optimization.
Understanding and Empathizing with Customers
00:18:04
Speaker
I love working with small businesses because there's not a lot of budget and I actually think that's a good thing. We have to be scrappy. We have to be thoughtful versus I work for companies that waste money all day in and out because they can. Small businesses, we've got to learn how to use our resources and we don't have time to spend money on things that aren't working. So I kind of key messaging, target audience, and then optimization of the marketing channels.
00:18:31
Speaker
If a business starts there, because i I want to blow out one of the topics because that, that key messaging to the targeted audience, I, I'm going to pull this up because this literally had somebody said this to me yesterday and I just about fell out of my chair.
00:18:46
Speaker
Because it's a company that's based in Dallas. I'm not going to talk about what they actually do. And I said, what is your ideal customer value proposition? What is the thing that you want to tell people about what you do? And his answer was, we help companies that provide products or services to their customers.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah. But also another great reaction, and maybe this these are the trigs phases of, because I think the next reaction is, yes, I can help this person. To me, I'd be going ding, but not one because they clearly need help. Yeah. So what my actual response was, okay, could you name for me, please, any other business in any other field that doesn't provide a product or service to their customers?
00:19:45
Speaker
he Anyway, I see your point. I see your point. So when you've talked about your people, we've talked about the ideal customers and you, like even with your bird business are very specific and theyre they about your ideal customer. So what are some ways in which people can really understand what who they want to sell to and why?
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think it usually just comes down to who is buying your product today and is there potential for that to continue to grow exponentially? Could they be buying more of it? Will they refer you to other people? I think some, a lot of it is also just talking to people. Like we've gotten so far away. There's so many fancy tools and again, AI and we sit in front of screens all day. But what if we talk to the people that either we want to have by our product that we think should buy our product who are actually buying our product?
00:20:36
Speaker
like We learn so much when you talk to people. I love going to markets like holiday markets or different where I sell my bird stuff because I get to talk to people and they tell me why they love these birds or why they're buying this gift. And then that always gives me ideas for other places I should be, other products that I could create. So I think there sometimes can be a difference between someone's potential ideal audience and who actually is buying their products. and I think we can get so swayed by shiny pennies and, oh, this market's opening up. and You got to go back to your roots of, why did you even start doing this in the first place? There was probably a need, there was probably space in the market. you probably can like The bullseye is your target market and you can grow from there. But I think you've got to talk to your customers and then figure out, are there people that look like them, that act like them, that I can then start to
00:21:27
Speaker
move that bullseye further out so I can ah attract more customers. So here's a question for both you and Dave as we're talking about ah your ideal customer is, and it's something that I've been struggling with finding a really good answer to. I think I figured out what my answer is, but here it is. Do you have to like your ideal customer?
00:21:49
Speaker
Oh, great. On the audio show, both of them are stunted to silent. Yeah. Well, go ahead if you want to. I'll start because I know Heather's going to do a better job at replying. But for me, you have to empathize with your ideal customer. You don't necessarily have to like them personally or what they do or whatever, as long as your product or service fills a real need for that person, it's going to work. Like Heather was just talking about, she goes to shows, she learns what the people in her life or that she's selling birds and bird-related materials to are going to react to and respond to. That doesn't necessarily mean that she wants to go out for coffee or tea and biscuits with those 60-year-old women, but
00:22:35
Speaker
I'm betting that her empathy is going to lead her to liking them more than she would have when she started. So a little bit of both. And I think I've got two different answers. One is ah from a marketing standpoint, hell no. You do not have to like them. Your job is to market, to create that connection, to get them to do what you want them to do. Go to the website, attend the event.
00:22:56
Speaker
but from a business owner our standpoint. Hold on. Hold on. Yeah. great Because yeah again, you're rolling by the really good answer is in a world where half of the people don't agree with you and hate you because of what you believe, business is the ultimate equalizer. And what Heather said I think is just really true is just because you don't necessarily support somebody doesn't mean you can't sell to them. And now go for your second.
00:23:26
Speaker
So that's my marketer hat answer. I think if you're a business owner, I think you have to like serving them. I think you have to like serving that audience. If I didn't like serving the 60 year plus, I love them. I love learning about how this book is going to go to their great grant. Like I love hearing their stories and I think if I did not have that emotional tie to wanting to serve them,
00:23:52
Speaker
I don't know if I'd be as successful and I don't know if businesses would be as successful because then you'd be losing the heart. People can sell stuff to people that are willing to buy it and that happens, but I think that takes the soul out of it. And if I'm serving small businesses, which I love, there's nothing more heart-centered or soul-filled than small businesses who care about their audience, who care about what they've built because it means something to them.
00:24:18
Speaker
That's the part that really charges me up about most of the clients that we work with because we're doing something. When I worked in corporate, I was at a top five bank prior to running BusyWeb. And if I had an absolutely stellar, absolutely crushed the year and did this amazing program that lifted revenues by 15%, the CEO got to buy a new Ferrari.
00:24:41
Speaker
blah, whatever. If I'm helping a small business and I'm actually helping them feed their family or grow their business, serve a community, we have a client right now. They're creating a robot to engage with people on the autism spectrum to help them make connections and understand input like human relations. So talk about something that really actually helps people
Personal Connection and Respect in Business
00:25:06
Speaker
to connect the world. More importantly, so especially since Heather worked for Miller, the company that you're talking about, Dave, has also, in addition to the autism research work which they're doing, which is extraordinary, they also have literally built a robot bartender, where it it if you press a button, it will pick up a glass, pour a draft, and then hand it to you, which is, they're doing the Lord's work and we thank you for that.
00:25:28
Speaker
Well, they're fundamentally missing one of the key parts of a good bartender, and maybe this will be like a generated AI plug-in, but will they listen? Will they give you advice? That is what a good bartender does. Don't just give me a drink. Teach me about life. There's something about- bartenders are some of the most wise. like They've been around, they've heard it all, and so I want to know how a robot's going to do that.
00:25:53
Speaker
That's certainly true. You want to know what my answer to my question was? Sure. Yes. No, no don't have to like the people that you work with. However, you do have to respect who they are, their place in the world, and their mission. If you can't respect them, then that falls into Heather's category of these are not my people.
00:26:15
Speaker
So if they're doing something that the rule that Dave had dave that that that Dave told me years ago, which I thought was a good one, is you should be able to tell your kids what you're doing. Right, right. Because we've had opportunities to work in some speedy or weird places. And we simply said no, because we're not going to support that. Sorry, we're not helping drug runners. Yeah, I was actually thinking, I was actually thinking about one of those. Do you actually remember what that one was? We're not even going to talk about it because it's too terrible. But we don't know. And we said, thank you very much for the opportunity to work with you. We can't really support it.
00:26:52
Speaker
And makes for a great story that if you were a bartender, there's probably some nuggets of wisdom that you'd be. Yeah. And as as a former bartender, what that story especially taught me is that there's a million different ways to make a living and a living in America and none of them are wrong, but most of them are weird. Yes. Yes. And we see lots of weird.
00:27:10
Speaker
Yes. We walked right by one of your judo tricks, I think Heather. And this is, this is really fun. You dropped so many knowledge bombs. I don't know if you, she's going too fast. We gotta have her, we gotta have her talk. Like we gotta put her on a clock, like talk for 10 seconds and then let's expand on that and keep going. We're going to have a mind blown counter at the end of our talk today. But the, one of the things that you mentioned in your targeting for your bird business, you,
00:27:41
Speaker
do children's books as one of those things, but yet your key audience isn't children, it's 60 plus year old women.
Identifying the Buyer and Strategic Conversations
00:27:50
Speaker
So good point that's one of the things that a lot of small businesses in particular lose sight of, they're like, our product does X, so we're trying to reach X. You're not really always trying to reach that end user though, you need to influence or connect with someone that's actually going to do the buying.
00:28:07
Speaker
So how do you do that? How do you get past that? Say in your next fractional meeting, you're connecting, you're asking some questions to that client. How do you get to who the real buyer is?
00:28:18
Speaker
I think it's as simple as asking that question. Instead of just assuming we're off to the races, especially in B2B, I even think about the services that that I offer. Who's my buyer? I need to talk to CEOs and presidents. It's true that a fractional finance person or IT, they could bring me in and refer me, but for the most part, it is the decision maker. The buyer who is going to pay me is going to be that president CEO owner.
00:28:43
Speaker
And so I think never losing sight of, okay, I know what we do, we're doing it, but but who's pulling the trigger? Who's the one that's giving us the yes? And I think because that does change, how I talk to a CEO is very different than how I talk to a marketing team that I'm helping. So just, I think it sounds so simple, but oftentimes the most profound things are, ask that question, who's actually our buyer? It could be different than who's the end user of our product.
00:29:11
Speaker
and The real interesting thing is even if we use that as an example, okay, so we're looking for CEOs, how do we find them? One of the things that a more sophisticated marketer like Heather understands and and we've run into this over the years is somebody will say, okay, well I'm just going to go on LinkedIn and then I'm going to run a list for everybody who's a CEO and then I'm going to do that. But here's a deep dark secret. Dave, you're the CEO of VisiWeb and you post on LinkedIn regularly, right?
00:29:41
Speaker
How many times do you write what is posted on LinkedIn? About 50 percent. But one of the things that I think you're getting at, Troy, is I also have Gatekeeper. Yes. and so what you're really you youre You need to think one step beyond that. If I'm trying to reach a CEO, I really need to reach the people that are informing that CEO in order to get to the decision. Yes. so it it is a little bit of psychology. And that's probably where circling back to the brands. That's who we are, what we do, and all of the inputs that go into having a relationship with our best customer.
00:30:19
Speaker
That's so well said, and I think that gets back to you then we have to make space to have those really strategic conversations. And I think sometimes that is the beauty of a fractional or an outsider, because you're not in the soup of the day to day. So you can stop and say, guys, wait a minute, let's have like a half hour session on who is actually our buyer. And again, that might seem so simple and obvious, but to your point, okay, we're going after CEOs actually, are we going after admins? Actually, are we going after the person that talks the most to the CEO?
00:30:48
Speaker
And so having this space to have real conversations where people can go back and forth, I think is so important and often is lost in the day to day execution of all the things that need to get done. So space for strategy. And that's exactly what this is. It's a strategy conversation about your target audience. Wow. And once again, you've tripped over a mind blowing concept because.
00:31:09
Speaker
I, in my job, people want to get rid of strategic thinking. And I never i never understand.
Guiding Business with Strategy
00:31:16
Speaker
So what is, what would you say Heather is the value of a marketing strategy? It is the same idea of, would you get in a car without knowing where you're going? Oh my God. She's stealing my analogy. go i no and get yeah but Yes. Yes.
00:31:34
Speaker
I mean, that's right. If we don't know what the goal is, how do we know how we're going to get there? And there could be 17 different roads and none of them are wrong, but they have to be the roads that get to the goal. So without that, and I think that in especially small businesses, they're running quickly. They've got the office manager who is someone's cousin. All of a sudden, well, you could post us on social. All of a sudden, they're running tactics without thinking about why are we doing the tactic?
00:32:01
Speaker
And so everyone's busy doing things that actually don't matter. And that is where strategy comes in. It's the North Star and it keeps everyone honest. it's If this doesn't drive awareness, if this doesn't drive engagement, we are not doing it. So it's a lovely filter for activities. And it keeps everyone on the same page. I've had a lot of conversations with owners where it's like, they'll come up and love owners and their visionaries, right? So lots of ideas. So lots of, oh, hey, I heard we ought to do this. Or what if we went to this event?
00:32:27
Speaker
does this actually align with our goal? And the answer is no. It doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It just means and it goes into a beautiful place called the parking lot. And we can revisit that parking lot when we've got space and extra resources and maybe a different strategy.
00:32:42
Speaker
actually have a CEO group that I'm part of and they brought up that exact idea of the parking lot or ongoing relationships that these folks have with their clients. They deliver toward a specific set of actionables.
00:32:59
Speaker
And at the end of that, there's always brainstorming things or things that we want to do when we're going to renew. And so they just keep that little bucket off to the side. and We have all these great ideas that we came up with over the year. We needed to deliver on these four things because we have constraints, we're trying to get it done. But look at all these other things that we could do. So what a brilliant way to keep going and expanding a relationship with someone because you would come up with ideas. Yeah.
00:33:27
Speaker
and yet Yes, you absolutely did steal that, but that's okay because i I think I probably stole it from something I heard from you years ago. so it's It's the circle of stealing. What I'm telling people now in terms of the value of strategy is, um there's a specific town in Wisconsin called Wisconsin Dells, and it is the water capital of the world. and You get within 30 miles of it,
00:33:48
Speaker
And you are going to see all of these amazing things, advertisements and all sorts of things. Come here, do this. Oh my gosh, do this. So my analogy is why should you have a strategy? ah Running a business is like driving the 50 miles past Wisconsinels with four children in the car.
00:34:11
Speaker
who are all going to want you to do this and do this and do this and do this, but you need to get to Chicago. So how are you going to, how are you going to avoid the distractions, continue on the goal in order to most efficiently get your way there? So good. and Thank you. yeah Thank you. I'm available for hire.
00:34:27
Speaker
so what One of the things that I think you're really good at compared to a lot of people is injecting creativity into anything.
Integrating Creativity in Undervalued Spaces
00:34:35
Speaker
And I started this by saying I get a little frustrated with people who don't think their business is creative. So how do you approach in integrating creativity into a business who doesn't feel like creativity is important?
00:34:51
Speaker
I don't know if I do it that intentionally. For me, it's so important that it is part of how I approach life. I think creativity, it's like that kernel of play. Like when we were kids and we loved to play and we were free and we had flow in different ways. And this bird journey, the drawing has unlocked so many different things that I think is, it's just part of how I approach businesses now. And I think Creativity, it's something everyone has and everyone has access to it. But we've gotten so busy and that becomes an excuse. And there's a reason that our best ideas happen in the shower or when you're running or when you're not actually thinking about business. Creativity is giving your so your brain the space to dream and to come up with new things. Otherwise, we're packing it full of crap that actually doesn't turn into anything innovative. So part of
00:35:49
Speaker
The way I approach it is I talk to you about my daily naps. My daily naps are part of creativity because it causes me to stop what I'm thinking about, what I'm doing, when I'm immersed in. I get to pause, I get to reset, and sometimes something else hits me or I might be drawing a bird and I have an idea about a way I could help a business with a campaign we're working on. So this idea of distracted thinking is actually It's like a secret weapon because you're not even intentionally doing it. But again, if you give yourself the space, your brain, the space to breathe, it is amazing what can come out of it. And so if it's helping businesses do that by just talking about that or I help them, okay, what if we did it this way?
00:36:33
Speaker
Or I even sometimes suggest let's do something out of the office. Let's take a walk and have this conversation. We just as humans get so stuck in our patterns and part of creativity is breaking patterns in different ways. What's the difference between creativity and cleverness?
The Power of Authenticity in Marketing
00:36:52
Speaker
I think creativity is like the base or the foundation and cleverness is like a channel that creativity can flow through. like It's an expression of creativity. In my opinion. yeah I think oftentimes when businesses are trying to be creative, they're losing the sense of us because yeah you're going to buy from people, you you're going to buy from people you feel comfortable with,
00:37:21
Speaker
And however the the approach through marketing and through selling has to be that level since have that level of sincerity like Linus and the pumpkin patch in order to really really get people to to pick up the phone and call you and want to talk with you.
00:37:37
Speaker
being overtly clever, I think, especially in today's noise, is just going to make somebody go, ah, that's cute, and move on. but ah Authenticness of things. You're talking about how they're like, let's just take a walk. Let's think about this. Let's connect on a human level. yeah That's really where businesses are going to win in 2025. It's not and and beyond. It's not just acceleration into everything AI for the sake of a bulk notion of connectivity. It's connectivity on a way that is authentic.
00:38:11
Speaker
I agree with you, and I think cleverness can can be the spark that gets someone interested, but you've got to back up that spark with the goods. You know what I mean? Like a funny tagline or something interesting is, oh, let me tell you more, but if it is not authentic. If it's not real, if it's all kind of smoke and mirrors, it's what's the point. It's clickbait for the sake of somebody clicking on something with nothing real to deliver. And I think to your point with A, what do they call it the AI slop? Like in the world of AI slop, I do think what's going to rise to the top is realness, true connection. And I also think having a point of view is going to matter more because
00:38:52
Speaker
AI says a lot of nothing. There's a lot of vanilla-ness out there, and I think companies that start to take a stand on things and have a real point of view um that come from the humanness in them, I think they're going to stand out more. I agree.
AI as a Creative Tool
00:39:06
Speaker
the The AI side of marketing and the looming threat that everybody keeps talking about in the gloom and doom of it, it's a tool, but it's just, in my opinion, it's just a writer's block crusher, right? so If I'm stuck, if I'm struggling, sometimes I don't go for a walk or hop in the shower, which would be weird at the office, but if- We need a shower at the office so you can do that. See, I should think about that. Parking lot. Yeah. Look at her bringing it back. So if you're looking at a way to just get as many things on the board as possible and help brainstorm things, like I'm using AI to do gap analysis.
00:39:47
Speaker
or to brainstorm us. Give me a hundred ideas that generally tie into what we're trying to do, but don't limit yourself to anything that might seem too close to the ideals. I want everything. And then you can narrow it down. at use a a And the other day we had a customer complain, I never hear from you. Right.
00:40:08
Speaker
and so i I used an AI bot to summarize in the CRM how many points of communication they've had from us. That's 165 in three months. and We've talked to 165 times. But your I think the creative spark of human inspiration and where we get human and where we're actually thinking and there's a through line that's just not replaceable by algorithm algorithms.
00:40:34
Speaker
And that's part of the power of having a fantastic fractional that can come in and as an outside observer that hasn't been in the business for 20 years or that can raise your voice without fear of getting fired is
Value of Fractional Executives and Openness to Feedback
00:40:50
Speaker
important. And so that's why I love working with fractional executives like Heather and putting that stuff out there because it shakes the extra sketch and it really makes it a inspirational conversation versus just trying to get things done. Yeah. And we don't have to water the truth down with politics. We can say it how it is, whether people like it or not, knowing that I'll always have the best interest of the company that I'm supporting, but there's no other, we're not trying to get a promotion, not trying like I'm here to tell the truth.
00:41:26
Speaker
but ah And here's my two cents on this is, I think having somebody like Heather come in who has that sort of sense of authenticity, I think is incredibly scary because that and everybody's there's going to be a backlash. I don't want that. She's going to tell me things I already you know and things that, or she's going to tell me things I don't want to do.
00:41:44
Speaker
Is that why I've been fired so many times? No, I wouldn't say, I don't know. But what I would say is you should operate your job and your roles and responsibilities so that somebody who is a disinterested third party who just wants to this to be success, your work should withstand scrutiny. And if it doesn't, then you should be able to pick up some wins. I'm working with a consultant right now. now, where I'm being better at my job. And so far, about 70% of what we're we've talked about are in perfect agreement, which is great, which means that the 30% that it's not, I'm getting help. But you have to be open to that. And you have to we're also wreck be confident in your own work that you can bring somebody in whose only goal is to help and it's going to work
00:42:33
Speaker
Yeah. And something you said just struck me. You have to be willing to show everything, like the things that aren't going well. you And you have to put your ego aside. If you're ready to take your business to the next level, it is going to require honest conversations, things you may not want to hear, honesty about do you have the right people in the right seats. And when you're willing to be open to the fact that maybe you don't have it all figured out, this is a life lesson in general.
00:42:58
Speaker
That is where magic happens because the right people can come into your orbit at the right time and be that puzzle pit piece that adds value where you don't have those same skills. And I think that is a beauty of fractional. That's the beauty of working with agencies like yourself. But companies have to have the self-awareness that they don't know at all.
00:43:17
Speaker
I want to bring Nicole off mute for a little cause she has, she has a dying question to ask, which is, and I'll, she put it in chat with me. So I'll ask, and then she can ask her own follow-ups is you have two different businesses
Balancing Multiple Businesses and Self-Care
00:43:30
Speaker
that you're running. You're running the children's book and you're running Vogel Ventures, your fractional business. How on earth do you structure your day and have that work life hours that you were talking about?
00:43:39
Speaker
My day is a very special Tetris game. And the other key to what I do is I have a four-day work week. So my weeks start at noon on Mondays and they end at noon on Fridays.
00:43:52
Speaker
So those days in between are jam-packed and people will laugh at me and say, oh, can't get a meeting for you for three weeks. And it's yes, because I have to be so planned out. I have my follow-ups in my calendar. If it is not in my calendar, it doesn't exist. I have got to be very disciplined and organized with my time. So that's how it starts is.
00:44:15
Speaker
Okay, I've got the big things I have to do this week. And then for the most part, there's not a lot of filler time in my calendar, except for my naps that I take every single day. But I have to plan out everything. And even if it like today, I've got to drop books off at the All Seasons Wild Birds store in Bloomington.
00:44:31
Speaker
It is in my calendar. I don't do checklists. I do time blocks of my calendar. And I think that is a big part. And I have to be disciplined about it. And it also means I don't do a ton of in-person meetings unless I know someone. If I do an intro meeting with someone, it's on Zoom for a half hour first.
00:44:47
Speaker
And if someone has a problem with that, it's, ooh, again, I maybe I'm not for you. But if we jump on the Zoom and there's a love connection, cause sometimes you meet with someone and you're like, I just don't know like how I can help you. But if there's a bit of that connection, great, let's take it to the coffee shop next time. But you have to, we spend so much time giving our time away and it is the most precious non-renewable resource we have, we can make more money, we cannot make more time. And so how we spend that time is a reflection of our priorities. So if at the end of the day you realize you spent three hours scrolling social media, sounds like that's your priority.
00:45:24
Speaker
I love that. Thank you. And I think that you're right. I think having the discipline structure is the key. I think for so many, the struggle is the discipline part. Cause it's so easy to say yes. It's so easy to try to be flexible because you really want to accommodate folks and you really want to help them. I know for for me, it's a struggle. And so trying to then remind myself you very hard that this is why I do this.
00:45:52
Speaker
Yeah. And what you just said triggered, it's like the answer has to be what is going to make me the best me. So for example, I had a client and I know this is like blasphemy and I hope they don't listen to this because it'll be like, what the hell you could have met. They wanted to move a meeting and that would have interfered with other priorities I had. It doesn't even matter what those priorities are. It could have been my nap. It wasn't, but it could have been.
00:46:12
Speaker
And it was like, no, I can't do that time. And now we're having this meeting in two weeks. I probably could have squeezed it in next week, but that would not have made me the best meet. I would have been resentful that I had to pack this meeting in. I would have been probably annoyed. And then I am not showing up in my best capacity. So I think if we have the lens of how is showing up going to allow me to be my best? And if that means you have to prioritize other things, even if it's a client, we've got to do that not only for ourselves, but for our client's sake.
00:46:43
Speaker
I think the word that strikes me based on listening to her the last couple of minutes talking about her her best me is she's unapologetic in pushing people off if it doesn't fit into to to what her actual goals are.
00:46:54
Speaker
And I will say that is also something that came from pain. There was a while about two years ago that I was like, I don't understand why I don't have time to breathe. Like I got out of corporate so I didn't have to be in back to back meetings all the time. Now I'm never in back to back meetings because I buffer every single one. I will never, like that is a promise I made to myself. I will never be in back to back meetings again because that does not make me the best me. And it took the pain of doing that to myself to say,
00:47:20
Speaker
And actually it was my husband. I remember I was so mad because it was a Friday. I had something in the afternoon and I'm not supposed to be working Friday afternoon. And he just looked at me and he said, who's doing your calendar these days? Oh, and you yep. And he's right. And so I realized that I am doing all of these are all my choices and I can make different choices. And I always just have that what is going to make me the best. If that means I have to take this nap for 20 minutes so I can show up refreshed and a different headspace. That is what I have to do for the greater of mankind. but I love that. I have one quick, one more thing. How do you.
00:48:00
Speaker
and how how you would put this How do you make concessions for outside forces? Meaning perhaps if you work in an environment where you have other team members, you have other people and they maybe aren't as conscientious of or acceptable or respect your boundaries.
00:48:17
Speaker
And so they go ahead and without any consideration, schedule a meeting, schedule a time, do those things. How do then you combat that? Do you just have a conversation with them gently? Like, how can you help ah that in a friendly manner?
00:48:31
Speaker
Okay, so if we're talking specifically about like someone else on the team kind of assaulting your time, I will say one thing that I do every week, so I've got a an hour a week set aside for networking. So if that time, it's half hour slots. If that time doesn't get used, that's cool. I'll use it for something else, but it's dedicated time I have if there is someone in transition that wants some help. And so I would maybe put some like a buffer. there's ah There's maybe it's seven to eight.
00:48:58
Speaker
on Wednesday morning where it's like, hey, if you need me outside of our regular time, you can grab this time. Of course emergencies happen and I'm not talking about that, but I think the expectation should be that people can't just assault your calendar. Again, is that going to make you the best you? And then they're getting the the lesson that they can just put things on your calendar. And part of it is you have to block your calendar. So one of the reasons I don't love I was using Calendly for a while and I stopped using it because yes, I can block my time, but then I would look at my day or my week and I'd say, oh God, Friday morning, awesome, I'm gonna go for a walk. And then damn it, on Thursday, someone takes a slot and it felt like an assault on my calendar and I don't like that. So whether it's having specific flexible time or someone can do that, or if you're meeting regularly, it's can this wait? Unless it's an emergency, do we really have to
00:49:54
Speaker
Are you empowered to make the decisions you need to make to get us till Wednesday when you and I can have a live conversation? I don't know if that's helpful, but. It is helpful because I think people struggle with that. like you don't It's those outside forces that you want to accommodate, but yet at the same time, what like you said, showing up is your best self, setting those boundaries, and everybody of you being respectful for that, whether that's whether outside forces vendors, clients can be more challenging, internal if you're still working in teams and doing those things. I think that's something that you can have that conversation.
00:50:26
Speaker
It comes back to saying what you mean and me what you say, which sometimes can be scary, but it's a very simple concept that can work really well. Somebody comes into your office, there is no problem with you saying, Hey, if this is more than two minutes, I'm working on this and I'm sorry, I probably should have shut my door or you know what?
00:50:42
Speaker
But say that. Don't let someone ramble on and steal 10 minutes of this time that you set aside for something else. And then that person gets that, oh, you know what? I maybe should have scheduled something. This isn't a 10 minute. I actually need 20 minutes. Oh, and then maybe this is a different conversation. So I think by just being honest with each other about how we're feeling, if we're not, somebody assaults your time. You're resentful. Now you've got a chip on your shoulder. They don't know why you're so pissed. And so what if we just said what we meant and meant what we said?
00:51:10
Speaker
Thank you, Heather. You're available for life coaching. um you star miss shoot um and Heather, thank you so much for joining us. We usually end up by naked self-promotion. So how can people find you and where should they find your little birdies books?
Heather's Work and Contact Information
00:51:26
Speaker
And how can they find you at VocalVentures? Oh, thank you for that. Yeah. So LinkedIn, Heather Boschke, my Vocal, my marketing site is VocalVenture.com. And then you can find my little birdies at little birdie buddies.com.
00:51:40
Speaker
Dave, anything classy and inspirational to say as we wrap up? This has been a fantastic conversation and correct 100% on a bad day, Ruiner, because you can get all the way through this podcast and still be grumpy. No, I feel better. You need a bird in your life. I do love that. So the ideas and the Being very thoughtful in what you accept in your life and clarifying who you are and what you do is one of Heather's superpowers. So if you're, like all of us, trying to struggle, especially in this new year and where we're at, trying to set up your goals, think about who you are, what you're willing to accept in your life, and make sure that you get the most out of it.
00:52:30
Speaker
Love that. All right. Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Heather. Thank you, Nicole. This has been another episode of the Dial It In podcast produced by Nicole Fairclough and Andy Wieckowski. And with apologies to Tony Kornheiser, we will also try to do better the next time.