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Moving Behind the Screen: From Player to GM
32 Plays3 months ago
Many GMs start out as players. What's that transition like? What sort of things should a new GM keep in mind? And what should they do when the players inevitably do something unexpected? Daryl, Nick, and How We Roll's newest GM, Robert, discuss their paths to being GMs, plus tips & tricks they've learned along the way.
https://howwerollgaming.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Role-Playing Games
00:00:01
Speaker
How We Roll Gaming is dedicated to spreading enjoyment of great role-playing games. We hope to bring you insights into games you may not have played, tips to be a better game master of player, and share stories of momentous events at our tables. Every game is a new story to tell. um darrel I'm I'm Nick. And here's Robert. And this is How We Roll.
Holiday Gaming Plans
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome back everyone to the How We Roll gaming podcast. Now this episode won't be posted for a couple of weeks from right now, but we're recording just a couple of days before Christmas. So I hope the two of you are ready. ah Are you guys doing any, do you have any gaming related plans over the holiday weeks?
00:00:52
Speaker
Uh, as of right now, uh, I'm, I might have some guests over later and we might play some board games and in general, I've been playing the, uh, the newest, uh, Star Wars or his video game game out currently, Star Wars Outlaws and having a good time with it.
Anticipation of Gifts
00:01:10
Speaker
Sweet. I need to play some more of that. For me, it's mostly not playing games, but just thinking up.
00:01:19
Speaker
the, how the adventures are going to go for new games and then for my current games. And then I'm going to think about the scenario and setting for a new game. I want to do in the future. Sweet. I, I want to get some more outlaws played. I totally don't know that my son has gotten me, um, the Indiana Jones and the great circle game for Christmas. I totally don't know that because I totally am not the one who suggested it and found it in stock at a nearby target.
00:01:49
Speaker
And set up the order for him to place for delivery and I'm not the one who got it off of the porch when it was delivered.
00:01:58
Speaker
But I may also I'm hoping to have some time to sit down and read. of the Arkham Horror core rule book and the Star Trek Adventures second edition core rule book although gonna have family in town for the holidays so who knows if I'm actually gonna have that time so hopefully knock wood but sir you know there's never I've got a week and a half off of work, but there's never enough time, no matter how much time you take off work to do everything that you plan in the time that you take off of work. It always goes by so fast.
Transitioning to Game Mastering
00:02:40
Speaker
But what are we going to be talking about today, guys? Well, it's one that's definitely related to me specifically. It's the transitioning from a player to a GM.
00:02:55
Speaker
Yes. Yes. and you we We all know about the forever GM. It's a tale as old as all this time.
00:03:07
Speaker
um But a lot of really good GMs begin as players. So today we're going to talk about making that transition from player to GM, what it entails, what might spur somebody to make that move. ah Because some people just want to play. Some people just want a GM. But sometimes you You start off as a player and like, Hey, I want to try that. Uh, we're going to give some ideas on how to make that switch and anything else we can think of on the topic. And it just so happens that among the three of us, Robert has most recently made that move behind the screen. Yes, definitely. And I think it was, it was been about
00:03:58
Speaker
What is it? One year, two years since I've transitioned? I think it's a year and a half. That's what, that sounds right. Yeah. A year and a half. It sounds, that sounds about right. Cause I remember, I remember you sitting down with us as we were starting to brainstorm, um, our adaptation of the far orbit project yes and we're giving you hints on, um, on transition. Yeah. And definitely and I went to you guys for advice cause you have been in the,
00:04:28
Speaker
GM seen a lot longer than I ever have. So I definitely picked you guys' brains to see if I was doing it right or setting it up right. Well, I know that i I kind of dove into the deep end of GMing. I played one or two sessions of of D and&D proper way, way, way back.
00:04:54
Speaker
Um, and then in high school, they released the DC heroes role-playing game. And I was a big, oh, I still am a big DC comics nerd. And the, the cover art was by my favorite artists, the late George Perez. And so I just, I snatched it up because it was real heavy on Teen Titans material. And he was the artist of new Teen Titans at the time. And.
00:05:25
Speaker
So I dove into that. I convinced some friends that we needed to play, but I was the one who owned the game. So I started out as our GM and fortunately um there were one or two others in the group who um were ready and willing to try their hand at GMing too. So we kind of would kind of rotate GM duties and that allowed me to play too.
00:05:55
Speaker
because I had come up with a character idea that I really wanted to play. And ever since then, that's kind of been the case. Every long-running game group that I've been a part of, at one point or another, I've GMed in the system is as well as playing. How about you, Nick? what's your What's your history with GMing versus playing? Similar to yours, we had a GM um had a at this when I was homeschooled that we went to for like yet togethers and he sort of took us around to like different types of games, mainly like old school D&D obviously, but also like the Star Wars role-playing game when it was owned by Wizards of the Coast, both the Saga and V20 edition. And sort of got me into that and then
00:06:53
Speaker
I kept on collecting stuff and be like, oh, this stuff is, remember it was fun when I got in the high school out of homeschool or like that was my middle and late elementary years. So I was like, I got together as a group of friends and was like, Hey,
Starting a Gaming Group
00:07:11
Speaker
have you guys ever heard of this and you haven't tried it? I was like, yes, I'll put it on for them. And then I was the DM for them for a while.
00:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, i I know that feeling well. you You find a system that you like and you keep buying the stuff. And so since you're the one with all of the books, you kind of by default become the GM because you've got all of the books. I've got the material so I can easily put that, more easily put it together. And then what made you decide to to make that that jump to GM, Robert?
00:07:52
Speaker
Well, I can tell you in the beginning back when I joined Nick's group back during COVID is that I had always wanted to join the D and D group or some type of RPG group, but where I, where I live, that wasn't really a big scene. Like there was no group in high school, no group in college that I ever found. So it was always something I wanted to do in the back of my mind, but never had the chance to. So when I joined with Nick's group, it was a Great experience, I got to make my own character, I got to kind of use the creative juices that's always been in the back of my head, like, okay, who is this character? What's his goals? How would he act in this scenario? What would he feel? And then over time, as I played more and more, especially in Star Wars, because that was our big thing back then, I thought I've always liked Star Wars. I've always liked these times, at least in the Legends, like I said, I really liked the Warlord era, the Thrawn era, and stuff like that. i've always like
00:08:50
Speaker
It's always a bummer to me that they've never made anything about that era into an actual like media. Sure, there are books, but there's no show. There's no movie. Well, back then, there was no shows like that. So I was like, yeah I want to do that. And I'll admit, this first part of me was like, maybe I can ask Nick if he can maybe make something like that. But then I was like, why am I doing that? I'm just asking Nick to cater to me specifically. So I was like, you know what?
00:09:21
Speaker
I want to try this. I know I wouldn't be a at least I have an idea for doing something similar to that. I know. It's just back then you were doing all these other Star Wars games are like adding another one would just be way too much for you. So I was like, you know what? I know the setting. I know Star
Investment in GMing
00:09:39
Speaker
Wars, at least the ins and outs of Star Wars, kind of how it works. And I was like, what I'm going to do, I'm going to get some books, look it up and I'm going to see if I can't run a game.
00:09:52
Speaker
in that era, in that warlord era of Star Wars. And I was like, and I know these people, so I'm gonna just float the idea by them, see if any of them take, and then I'm just gonna jump into it, take about a few few months to about a few months, and then Nick and Daryl here have already run, so I can make stuff, run it by them, ask, okay, how do you make this world? How do you kind of structure a campaign in such a wide opening sandbox And then it's like, you got to figure out your goal, what you want it to be. Do you have a structured campaign or is it going to be kind of an open-ended world where they're just existing? And then you got to think on how your players will act or what characters they'll kind of make. And it helps when you know your players. And then after that, you just have to create the setting, get them invested, and then, boom, you've got a campaign. So that was my thought process in the beginning of transitioning.
00:10:47
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was fun when you came to us with your idea, with your questions about being a DM because not every, usually it's kind of like the like the hero's journey, the mentor, because usually, from all the people that I can imagine, I think you've probably had the experience to have heard that a player becomes a DM because the DM either moves away or passes away.
00:11:13
Speaker
Yeah, I've heard that. And someone needs to take on sort of the the passing of the mentor.
Online GMing Adjustments
00:11:20
Speaker
or It's like. So I was worried like which one of us was going to kick the bucket? I mean, even odds, it was even odds could have been either of us. um you know Fortunately, you know Robert wasn't plotting to kill either of us. It was just, you know, adding to the pool.
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah, it was always part of the the goal when I, when I, when we started up these groups, like to encourage people to like, cause that's again, as you mentioned, Robert, like I tried to start up a group in my college and like my college was nerdy for our college down here. Yeah. cause And it's like, even that was like hard to get traction on. Yeah. Cause I was up in A and&M and.
00:12:13
Speaker
They're definitely nerdy, but the only thing related to gaming that I found was just a video game creation club that met it. And then there was nothing in the way of tabletop or board games or stuff like that. Yeah. I learned the hard way and that I put it on the, the, uh, at the, uh, at the school's Reddit, but the post right under me sort of told me, but cause the first post right directly undermined that I just posted about like starting a D and D group.
00:12:43
Speaker
was how do you make friends at UTD? Number one top voted comment with 30 at the moment, and I believe it became like 130. You don't. See, i I guess I was kind of lucky in that regard with that that the DC Heroes game back in high school, and that all of my friends were we're kind of nerdy.
00:13:09
Speaker
and some of them I had gotten into comics and um some of them already kind of were and we were we were all the the nerdy type anyway and so on I was like hey I have this game we should play it and like okay and and we took we took off from there ah so I all That ultimately, that is why I started up the meetup groups in the first place. It was like, all right, college is not going, going well. I tried a few online games, but I get people from like Germany and I can't stay up that late. It's like, I'm going to try and make it local. There's gotta be others at me that are either looking for this.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah. And the rest was history. Yep. And, and you can't get rid of us now.
00:14:17
Speaker
It's true. Yeah. Cause for me back in high school, I was on the football team and there was, there was by no way, no reason, no, there was no like jock type characters, but all my friends or people I knew were the athletic types. So when they wanted to hang out and do stuff, it was always sports related.
00:14:37
Speaker
And those that weren't on the football team, because I did have a few friends that I just knew from elementary and middle school, they were more video game centers. So there was no one really interested in the tabletop when I was growing up. There is a also a stigma of investment that does come from even starting getting into role-playing games, which can't be ignored. Oh, yes. There's definitely, you do definitely
00:15:06
Speaker
to be a hyperbolic, you've sacrificed your time and money for this to create these worlds, create these games that other, you and other people play in. Yeah. And it's definitely not an insignificant of either. Right. So that is something that should be known for any, for anyone that's looking to get into being a game master.
Player Reactions
00:15:31
Speaker
It's going to cost time and it's going to cost money. Yes.
00:15:37
Speaker
And no matter how fun it is, never, never go into financial problems for this exact money on the side by all means. But if you're struggling, don't do it. Maybe find someone, read it at the bookstore for hours before they kick you out. And then put together, ah put together a group and, uh, we don't advocate finding things online, but we're not saying that we haven't done it before.
00:16:07
Speaker
I am pure as the driven snow in that regard.
00:16:14
Speaker
um So as you started to make that transition, Robert, what was the biggest surprise that you found? Well, there were some things that I had to figure out. First of all, it's definitely the anxiety jitters you get when you when I finally made that first session and everyone was coming to my house and my brain was like, okay, this is real. You've got to get them hooked. You've got to get them in this game and you got to just do it right. And what I didn't expect is that they would like it so much in the beginning. Like they were like, you sure you've never like, I think it was either Betsy or.
00:17:00
Speaker
Betsy or Dante, they were like, are you sure you've never GM'd before? And I was like, I think, I i think it was Betsy. Cause I was there for that first essence. That's sort of, cause you held it at my plate. And I was like, no, this is pretty much my first time. And I was unexpected on how quickly they'd like it. How quickly they get invested, how quickly I just dumped a character and in our campaign, there's a Gamorian character named Gruccor. He was completely optional. And.
00:17:29
Speaker
a little bit behind the screens. I just made the guy up. Just made him out there on a prison ship. So I'm like, what would you find on a prison ship in Star Wars? A Gamorian. Why not? Yeah. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to throw him in there. He's going to act like a dumb brute Gamorian. And they just love the guy. And now he's part of their crew. He's got a big axe. And they love the guy so much that they pushed me to make him a nemesis so he could take strain instead of just taking wounds all the time. Well, that's kind of what's crazy. One of the biggest thing is like,
00:18:00
Speaker
I would say about the pre-game jitters, they never really go away.
Launching New Games
00:18:06
Speaker
There are times that I like- I was just about to say that. No, they don't, but I have noticed they've lessened as the more we do this. The more you do it, but it's never that moment where you feel like, I have this 100%. No, it's always a push and pull. Every time I launch a new game, I'm like, okay, I hope that this this premise, this setup, this setting, and the system that I picked for it. I hope that everybody enjoys it and has fun and wants to keep coming back to play because I'm having fun building it all for them. so I want to keep doing it, so I hope they like it. it That never goes away. ah Part of it does, again, come both from the investment of
00:18:59
Speaker
mostly in this case, time and like, I want to share this story with someone, but it's like, and how these characters have fun in this story, this world. It's like, you get attached to it in a way, like. Oh, very much so. There's been some bad guys that I've made that I knew eventually they're going to die. And I'm just like, I'm so sad they're going to go and I can't play them anymore.
00:19:28
Speaker
and I mean, i even it has been probably, look I'm gonna date myself here. It's probably been close to 30 years since I last played in that first Star Wars campaign that I was part of back in the West End system. And I'm still friends with some of the players from that.
00:19:55
Speaker
and and We haven't played any games in ages and I periodically will find myself thinking, Hey, I should reach out to them and see if they're interested in me running a one shot in the FFG system. You're like catching up with our characters. Yeah, but, um, yeah, got work ah similar feelings. Like we ended the, uh, the, uh,
00:20:21
Speaker
Our group that originally our special missions group, a couple of years back, it was like, I would love to do a one shot for psych. Where is everyone in like the, during the time of like the, the sequel trilogy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, no, one, one thing as I started GMing that I had.
00:20:43
Speaker
It's taking me years to get over this. I used to over-prepare like crazy.
Over-Preparing and Flexibility
00:20:52
Speaker
i did i I still do to a degree, but I've learned to tone it back. yeah Part of my problem with over-preparing was that with 2020 hindsight, and you we're talking about me now versus high school me in particular in that DC Heroes campaign.
00:21:14
Speaker
i I railroaded way too much because my my way of prep at that time, the only thing that I really knew since we had started off with one or two pre-written adventures was the printed adventure modules. So slight technical glitch there, but but um as I was saying, I had a problem with over-preparing.
00:21:42
Speaker
And with the DC Heroes system, we were used to playing from the first few sessions in pre-written adventure modules. And so what I would do when I was writing something completely from from scratch, I sat down at our computer and I basically typed out an adventure module. It was nowhere near quite as long as what was published, but I used their same format and I used all of that as much as I could on you know a late 80s computer set up. by i And so it was it was too railroady in hindsight. I didn't think it at the time, ah but I would over prepare. I would think, oh, if they do this, then i then this will happen and I need to make sure that they go here.
00:22:42
Speaker
And then when after they go here, then they will go over here. And I had to, as time went on, I learned that I had to unlearn that. um I'm not writing a module for public consumption that can go any of a million ways because every group is different.
00:23:08
Speaker
I'm putting something together for my group and I know how my players play. Yes, exactly. I know the kinds of decisions that they make. I know the kinds of things that will hook them and what they won't care about at all. So let's tailor this to them rather than just writing every beat out. And that's also a major thing. like I've heard a lot of people discourse online ah about like authors and creative writers going into to being DMs and like loving worlds and concepts, but like having frustration as DMs at tables because it's one thing to build a world and write a narrative in it. It's another to build a world and have
00:24:02
Speaker
real people taking care of these characters in. Yes, that's something I specifically had to reconcile with myself, because. and Another thing you got to learn from transitioning the player to GM is that you also have to reconcile with your ability to control when you're a player, all you have to control is your character. You know how they think, you know how they act, you know what they're going to do because it's your character, you're the one playing it as a GM.
00:24:31
Speaker
You make the world, kind of make the structure, the skeleton, as we like to say. But what I had to learn is that while I'm making it, it's not all mine. Because while I can make the NPCs, I can make the worlds, I can make the places, but I can't ah can't tell my players how they act as their characters. It's that control between GM versus your control when you're a player. And you have to reconcile that.
00:25:00
Speaker
While you do have the final say in their decisions, you don't have control over what those decisions will be. Exactly. like The major sign of a bad DM is a DM who is all about control. Yes. It's one of those where in the horror stories when someone's, the best example is when someone has a horror story of a GM playing with a module and they say, you can't do that. That was not in the module.
00:25:30
Speaker
It's kind of just translating to like, you can't do that. That's not how I plan for that to work. Right. And part of that is why over the years, i when I first started GMing, pre-written modules were my crutch. They can be a good crutch. And they they are a great way to learn. Don't get me wrong. There are great pre-written modules out there.
00:25:59
Speaker
but the stronger you get as a GM, I've reached the point that yes, I buy pre-written adventures, but I more often than not at this point use them as idea minds. Yes, i'm to I definitely do that as well. yeah and Sometimes I'll have new mechanics or new ideas on how to use established mechanics.
00:26:22
Speaker
yeah and you know I'll look through and I'm like, okay, I like this story element here, so let me pull this out. I'm not going to run this whole adventure, but I'm going to pull this concept, boom, and pull it over into into an adventure for my campaign.
00:26:42
Speaker
um and There are times that you know i'll I'm just pulling stat blocks kind of out of a published adventure, not even the ideas like,
00:26:54
Speaker
Oh, I like this character. This character could be fun. I'm going to bring him over here, because I have no use for the rest of the adventure. It's like, oh, I like this item or this weapon. I'm going to take that, but I don't really need the scenario on how they get it. I can get them get it a different way. and is this this Exactly. And it's like, I like the rules on how the players have to interact here. Let's just ah paint over the over the sign that has the name on it. And if it's the location we're going to. Yeah, because at least in my example with my a Star Wars scenario during the Warlord era. I'm like, OK. Specifically, they're in the region of the galaxy where this is the there's this major warlord faction. Well, in Star Wars story, that warlord faction basically gets like steamrolled by the New Republic fleet because their leader was just such an idiot.
00:27:47
Speaker
I was like, okay, what if he had like one competent commander that was able to keep everything together? So the struggle between getting control of that region is harder, thereby creating more opportunities for my characters. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. Yeah. Like one of my earlier longer running games was based off of the starter and one of my current running games is based off of the starter games for the FFT Star Wars role-playing game.
00:28:17
Speaker
those being what became long armor, the hub game and, and this one on a whisper base game game, which have way exceeded and gone beyond the bounds of what they were set out to be. Just quick introductions, full fledged campaigns of characters and ideas that never would have, were crossing the minds of the original creators.
00:28:44
Speaker
Though I think part of me thinks that those creators did kind of see the potential. That's why they left some of these modules kind of open-ended and saying, you can use this as your launching point to a further campaign. You can leave it here. The choice is yours. Oh, that's what I'm saying about like, uh, pre-written, uh, adventure modules have changed things as much as the game and the systems they do.
Using Pre-Written Modules
00:29:11
Speaker
It's very much be like, yeah.
00:29:13
Speaker
like having like those staff locks at the end of ah the book. So if you don't want to take anything from the book, you don't have to come through the book itself. You can just take that right at the back page of the appendix or give you options to keep the story going or keep this character. Yes, some books even say, OK, this adventure was for like we were thinking these type of characters, the these type of roles is what this adventure was initially for. But if you we have some ways you could incorporate it for a different set of players with different set of roles or different set of abilities, how they could get invested in this, how they would find this and why they would be invested in this when originally it was just for these type of characters. Some even have preamble that say like, here's how to adjust it if like, say you want to do this at a higher level for these characters.
00:30:06
Speaker
Yeah, pre-written adventures have have changed quite a bit. Because I used to be, as you mentioned, very railroady yeah and they they've gotten much less so some of them can still be railroady i mean it's hard to not write and publish something to send out to the masses and not have it be kind of railroady are they advice of like using pre-made, pre-written adventure modules is my role of thumb is be like, that is the ideal coats like in a session with people that you know would love this. Never approach it that way. Always have a bit of flexibility. Yeah. And pre-written adventures probably also work really well. If they're short wins in particular,
00:31:01
Speaker
if you're going to be running a game for a group of people that you don't know terribly well. Or people that you don't think understand role-playing games very well. they There stories that and allow the players to explore the world without you having to do a lot of the heavy leg work, while they also don't have to do the heavy leg work if they fit into, they can fit archetypes. So both player and GM can kind of feel each other out in this. And then something else too that a lot of new GMs, I don't think a lot of them necessarily go into with this mentality, but some of them, you know, some do kind of have to learn that the GM and player relationship is not an adversarial yeah that relationship. but I had to explain like what I do to to some family members, like, so
00:32:00
Speaker
Who wins?
00:32:05
Speaker
Everyone, because we play and have a good time. Because the idea is this is not a it's a tabletop game, but it's not a tabletop game in terms of there's a winner or loser. It's not a me versus of them. It's a collaborative storytelling. Event with a rules arbitrator. Yeah, and that's another thing you just got to make sure. and You're not what we like to call a combative DM. You're not trying to be like, okay, it's me versus the players. Let's see who wins. And not every player necessarily makes for a good GM because they might fall into that adversarial mindset. um You know, Nick and I have had an experience with
00:32:59
Speaker
with someone who was a great player. He is an amazing player. Brilliant. He knows the rules inside and out, even has accredited as a tester on several of the books. And you know he you he is brilliant at thinking outside of the box, at applying the mechanics as they're written and as intended to.
00:33:29
Speaker
in unconventional ways, and- That I really informed like how, a great deal of us, how I, as I even interpreted with it. And yet, as a GM, was very rigid and inflexible. Which was bizarre to say the least, considering that his characters were the most off the wall, off the cuff, like,
00:33:58
Speaker
honestly, the ones that you would never expect. And I think, and in this particular case, and I'm going to generalize grossly here um to make presumptions about a lot of GMs who end up with that kind of adversarial ah relationship with their players. I don't think it's coming in most cases from a place of saying it is me versus the player. I think it comes from a place of having an idea, being very much in love with the story that you want to tell. This is my premise and this is the story that I want to tell and it's going to be awesome and I want to lead them to point X and
00:34:58
Speaker
having a, either consciously or unconsciously, having a set idea of how you want them to get there and also sometimes not necessarily setting the expectations properly so that there isn't a meeting of the minds between the GM and the players as to the kind those kinds of things, what's going to be happening in the game. I believe like, yeah, when I first discussed this individual that we are discussing, I wanted to play a sort of a magician sort of trickster character. I quickly revised and on the fly made up a brand new character when I learned what the campaign was about. But did did somebody ever let you play that magician trickster character, Nick?
00:35:57
Speaker
Because yes, it for that scenario it just harkens back to the whole you the GM has to realize that he's not in control to the extent that he thinks he is. It's that whole again because yes, you've made the story. You've made the destination. You have to be flexible on how your players get there. There has to be some give and take. ah It's a collaborative and storytelling medium. And.
Session Zero Importance
00:36:25
Speaker
That's the kind of thing you every RPG, YouTuber and podcast out there these days will tell you the importance of a session zero. And and like a me that's where you step through. It's very much true. If you don't have that, then there's this less chance through your campaign going successfully. The the risk becomes and and have more, have there's always risk that it just doesn't click with them. And they say like dan the end of the first session, like I'm not into it. So that's a zero. That's weird to like that first session. And and it it helps establish that meeting of the minds. That's so important. um You know, I.
00:37:15
Speaker
I know for a fact, i I know that that campaign that we're referring to didn't have a session zero. We all we all came into session one with the premise in mind and having characters ready to go. And assuming that we're going to be playing with them as a player. Seeing how they, seeing seeing that just them on the opposite side but and of the DM screen. Yeah.
00:37:45
Speaker
And if it was a great premise and one of these days, you know, one of the other players and I in that campaign have that GM's blessing to continue that storyline. And we've been talking on and off for years about how we want to do that. One of these days we're actually going to do it. Uh, we're going to do a quote unquote season two yeah that because of that campaign with with the GM's blessing. Yeah.
00:38:14
Speaker
The problem is we we both had characters that we enjoyed playing.
00:38:21
Speaker
And bill if we're on the other side of the screen, then it becomes the dreaded GM PC. And ultimately, I enjoyed the premise, but not enough for me to adopt it. So I didn't even ask for reason to think you were looking for that. We did. But that's another thing I didn't expect when I became a GM. I didn't expect the.
00:38:44
Speaker
joy I got over creating my world, kind of creating my own premise, either in an established universe or in a new universe and just going with it. I never realized how joyful it made me, how quickly I would get invested in it. Like there was one time when I was making my cyberpunk city, I chose just the city next to me, Dallas. And I was like, okay, how am I going to make this? I found this map of Dallas and like separated with different Symbols and I was like, okay, those can be my districts and this will be this, that, that, that. And I looked at the clock and I was like, whoa, I've been here five hours already. And they didn't feel like five hours. That's that's be the number of me when I was in as yeah as an aspiring creative from writer, I'd be like, this is awesome. I have no idea how I'm going to put this world to work. And then when I became a dean, I was like, this is awesome. I've made this cool world and concepts. Like I really helped people want to play in it.
00:39:43
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I never, I never considered myself the creative type. I never thought about writing anything or writing. know I wasn't in that creative writing mindset, but with these campaigns of being a GM, I realized I do ever create a bone in me. It might not be directed towards writing an actual story or novel, but making these campaigns, making these worlds, these stories. For people to explore. It's like, that's, that fits.
Finding Campaign Inspiration
00:40:12
Speaker
And yeah.
00:40:13
Speaker
And and and that's that's my favorite part of GMing. I have fallen down that rabbit hole of time many times myself. i I'll be up on a on a work night and suddenly I'll have an idea for something and I'm there at the computer, tap, tap, tap, tap, and look up.
00:40:35
Speaker
oh Oh, it it's 10 30. I should probably start wrapping up soon. Cause I got to be up for work in the morning. Let me just finish this idea. like to tap tap and different if Different notes and like 20 different tabs open on, on my browser and like, especially i like I've used Google drive far more now than when I, whenever I was in school or college, here like, I was like,
00:41:03
Speaker
had i especially during COVID, the number of times that I went to bed at like 2, 2.30 in the morning, because I was like, okay, I'm sleeping an hour later than when I'm in the office.
00:41:19
Speaker
And no one can see how tired I am. So, okay, I'm done for the night, I'm going to bed, it's 2.30 and I'm gonna be awake in about four hours, four or five hours. There's something to be said about the rise of, and sort of popularity of a lot of things like this in the post COVID era. It's still so soon, it still feels weird to talk about.
00:41:50
Speaker
Yeah, i well, I had to learn. Out of for people who don't know me personally, I am terrible with technology.
00:42:01
Speaker
To the point, it's possible it hurts. What? I don't know what you're talking about, Nick, but in order to keep the games going and the games that Robert joined in on a swift, I basically had to like learn how to run games online.
00:42:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I've definitely had to learn how to juggle my time when it comes to multiple campaigns. I mean, I only have two and it feels like a lot of work. I don't know how you do with multiple games, Nick. Well, I'm i'm not. Well, you you have two and a half. Yeah, true. It's true. And a gm ah give that and i I would never call myself a robot.
00:42:44
Speaker
And I've got two and a half as well. I've got two and a half as well.
00:42:52
Speaker
And it it can be a time sink, but it's the best kind of time sink because it's one that you're enjoying. But that's also where, circling back to the anxiety, that's where the anxiety comes from. You feel so good and it's like that big serotonin hit.
00:43:14
Speaker
of like, it's all fitting together, the story, but you have to risk it because going against back to the biggest thing about a GM, you don't control the players. And i I can't tell you how thrilled that I am that all of you are so far, and we're only what, two, three sessions in digging my Walking Dead campaign. Oh, we're loving that.
00:43:45
Speaker
and yeah And that just a nice little segue into the topic of inspiration.
Campaign Development Dynamics
00:43:55
Speaker
that That just came from talking to the owner of a local game store. And he mentioned a premise of a Walking Dead game that he was going to be running in the store. And I was like, oh, I like that.
00:44:11
Speaker
Do you mind if I steal that? Because your way of of running games and where you're going to take this game is completely different from where I would take it and where my group of players would take it. Do you mind if I if i blatantly steal your premise? And you're like, oh, go right ahead. And so I'll occasionally see posts on the store's social media when they run sessions of that. And I'm like, oh, yeah, we're going in too completely different directions, starting from the same starting point. And that's a good thing. But for every creative writer and every like future GM, don't be afraid to tell the same story because every story has been told except for your version. Oh yeah. In this case, your player's version. Yeah. What's that saying? There are no original ideas anymore. Yeah.
00:45:10
Speaker
And he ran out of ideas before, before antiquity ended. Pretty much. But we keep telling different stories because someone has a different idea. They're all variations on the same thing. That's why there's a website called TV Tropes. That just tracks every single trope or cliche you could ever imagine. and
00:45:34
Speaker
And, and then of course, you know, there, There's the other kind of inspiration, somebody making an offhand comment, my other campaign that I run solo, my Star Wars campaign about the the Star Wars rock band. It it comes comes from two sources. It comes from my wife having watched Star Wars Visions and the episode Tatooine Rhapsody and saying, I want to be a hot rock star in some game, and yeah that
00:46:04
Speaker
kind of got filed away in the back of both of our heads because like, how's that ever going to come up in a campaign? It's a great NPC idea, but how's that ever going to come up in a campaign? And then I was reading um Bono's memoir, the lead singer of U2, and he was talking about, especially after the band got big, traveling the world for humanitarian reasons. I was like,
00:46:32
Speaker
You've got a rock band trying to make it big traveling the galaxy, but they're doing work for the rebellion. I have a campaign i idea. And without being specific, we could go into like a little bit about what sparked our starting of our current joint campaign. Robert. That's you were reading my mind because we I was about to say that as well. Cause yeah, it was just a day.
00:47:01
Speaker
I think there was it's supposed to be one of the many alien days that didn't happen. And I was the only one that came over. So we were like, we definitely can't just run it with just me here. So we were like, we can just sit around, talk a little bit. And then during the wind, one thing led to another. We just so saw something Star Wars related. And then I noticed something. and I was like, hey, Nick, do you see that? Do you notice this? And it's like, huh.
00:47:31
Speaker
And I looked at it at this one object. I was like, wait. And I started pulling out other books to be like, is this consistent? Yeah, I was like, did they? Is this a just a happy accident or did the George Lucas plan this or did the person who made this plan this? Like I started pulling up. So I was like.
00:47:54
Speaker
Is anyone seeing this? It's like getting nervous also. It's like it has to be something. the It's just it was lining up too well to be a coincidence, but apparently it was just pure coincidence. Yeah, and we were just like. What if we know the usual premise of Star Wars, this, this and this? What if we did this instead?
00:48:19
Speaker
And that's fun what we're doing now. It's like sort of this, this hitting, uh, anything like, cause again, like we took it to say of this universe and found something that was intriguing. i Human beings pattern recognition, look it up. It's like, yeah we recognize a pattern that doesn't seem to like match up with anything, nor what's been spoken about or even thought about. And then we were like.
00:48:52
Speaker
OK, and we'd made the pattern recognition. Sin is a thing and we were like, but we can use it and then and what if what if it wasn't? What if we use that as inspiration? inspiration Yeah, what if we use that as maturation? What if we did this this and this? We know we're going to flip this idea. We have an idea of who's going to join. We know. Like Darryl said, we kind of know how our players think. So we're like, OK, we do this, this and this. And.
00:49:20
Speaker
Well, lo and behold, in December, we just finished act one. The, our kind of villain character died and I'm sad and they're sad that she's gone, but we were like, that but then both Nick and I are joyful because they were like, now we can get into it.
Spontaneous Campaign Concepts
00:49:39
Speaker
Like, and again, it was spur of the moment, complete, like, I've owned these books for years. They're, they're well-worn and some of them are falling apart.
00:49:50
Speaker
And it's like, I never noticed it. It's just, you noticing it and I noticing that you notice it. It's like, you never know when inspiration will strike. Yes. And if I had a nickel for every time Nick and I got an idea from a, from a nailing campaign that didn't happen that day, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's strange that it's happened twice.
00:50:20
Speaker
Well, and so now you have fully embraced GMing. Oh yes, very much so. I mean, I just got into it. Yeah. And I'll not really a spoiler because I've said about this before, but I'm definitely got into the, um, legend of the five rings, all that Rokugan setting stuff. And I'm just like, I definitely want to make something like this because one, it's a system I think all three of us know about, but we've,
00:50:50
Speaker
never really played in it. Yeah. And it's a setting that I've always been interested in. But yeah, it's got so much. It's like Star Wars. It's got a whole lot of lore. Oh, you've got books, card games. I think short stories as well. And it's just like, yeah, I could do something like this sort of. East Eastern sort of samurai aesthetic stuff like that, but never really got into it. It's like, and yeah, I like.
00:51:18
Speaker
I like Japan. I definitely like the whole Seki Asengoku Jida period, which is basically what Rokon is based off only. It's like, what if that never ended? And then it's like, it has a whole lot more code. It's always been like, I've wanted, I've never wanted to run it, but I've always wanted to play in something like that.
00:51:39
Speaker
Yeah. It's just like, it's just sort of my sensibilities is like, I don't think I could do it justice. I maybe I could one day, but maybe I, after seeing you run it, I could try running one yeah because I'm definitely not going to try to incorporate everything. I'm just going to say, okay, this is how the world works. I'm going to introduce this. That's still part of the world. I'm going to introduce this in here. Then we'll make our characters and see just how they react to this situation. This.
00:52:09
Speaker
era that I'm going to put in. There's another fine point as well. Cause yeah, ah the same guy, you got your walking dead idea from Daryl. He also talked about Rokugan when I was in the store once and he's like, yeah, I run it as well, but I'm not big on the whole magic side of it. So I pretty much made Rokugan without the magic. So it's basically just samurai in Japan. So.
00:52:36
Speaker
What, what? He, he didn't want to run magic. The devil you say. No, he was like that their type of magic. I don't really think I could do it or I just didn't want to do it because it's a whole lot of stuff. And then, well, and I mean, to to be fair to, uh, for, for our listeners out there, nice little store.
00:52:57
Speaker
that the reason it exists in the first place is the owner wanted someplace where, wanted a game store where there's a gaming space that is not dominated by D and&D. And so he does not carry D and&D, he does not run D and&D, he does not, he doesn't really carry any fantasy stuff at all. So,
00:53:27
Speaker
You know, I'm not surprised that he didn't want to run any, any magic in it. He, what I've seen is that he, just from looking around in the store, he doesn't carry legend of the five rings, but he carries the five V variant adventures in Rokugan.
Adapting RPG Worlds
00:53:44
Speaker
And again, that's another thing to think about. like You don't have to run these things exactly to the letter. No role playing games.
00:53:55
Speaker
Your table is your table, be it at a and ah in the back room ah of a Starbucks, at a gaming shop, or in your own home. Yes. You can choose to emphasize what you want. And also, no matter how large the world is, you have to accept that you can't give them the whole world. Exactly. I'm running an Everon campaign in the D and&D, our D and&D campaign.
00:54:26
Speaker
world of everyone. I can even if this campaign ran for like four more years, they wouldn't touch all of it. Exactly. And same with Star Wars. I got them all in this huge galaxy with all these planets, some of which are there there. No one's ever done anything with them. So there's like hundreds of planets. We could just make up whatever the heck I want for each planet. It's it's it's a galaxy far, far away. There's billions of planets likely.
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah, and there's people talk in in Star Wars and to a lesser degree Star Trek about small galaxy syndrome, about how most of the stories in the main media are centered around such a small group of people and places. That's because they have to attract viewers right and and people that understand that. Exactly.
00:55:25
Speaker
and so Exactly. and so yeah as a gm yes you You have no budget. You're not trying to appeal to millions and millions of fans. And to be honest, you're appealing to stock investors.
00:55:41
Speaker
and You're appealing to half a dozen or so people who come over to your whatever location you play in on a semi-regular basis.
00:55:52
Speaker
to have fun together telling this. And it's a little bit of your preferences too. Like how many times have we three said, okay, we're going to play something in Star Wars, but we're not going to go to Tatooine. I'm sick of Tatooine. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm spoiler alert. Uh, since, since you're not a player, it doesn't matter as much to you, Robert, but Nick, cover your ears at some point.
00:56:21
Speaker
Rebel Yell, the the rock band campaign may go to Tatooine just to run into the characters that were partial inspiration. ah Okay. From from the Tatooine Rhapsody episode of Visions because say that particular episode isn't, there's there's nothing in it that would necessarily preclude it from fitting into a more quote-unquote canonical Star Wars. But, you know, it would just be fun. It would be for the fun of it not to say like, oh, it's Star Wars. We have to go to Tatooine. Or, you know, who knows? Maybe that band got off a Tatooine and they'll run into him someplace else. I don't know.
00:57:10
Speaker
It's just a thought that occurred to me when I was rewatching that episode a few weeks ago. It's not fleshed out yet because that's that's down the line somewhere.
00:57:23
Speaker
So what kind of prep have you started doing, making that transition from player to GM, Robert?
Campaign Preparation Process
00:57:36
Speaker
What kind of prep do you do? Are you going back now?
00:57:38
Speaker
Oh, yes, you can yeah back and come back for that. and But the Star Wars one first, it was like, OK. It was definitely first. I want to play it in Star Wars. OK. What setting is it going to be? OK, it's the Warlord era. It's like, OK. What do I know about that era? The players, the events happening, what do I know about it? OK. Now, in this huge, expansive galaxy, where do I want them to be?
00:58:06
Speaker
And I was like, OK, I want them to be here next to this Warlord faction and this Warlord faction, and this New Republic's fleet. OK. Now, as players, how first am I going to hook them in? And then what is the kind of end goal or the objective I'm making this campaign out to be? And for this one, it was first, it was a sandbox. But I'm learning that maybe I shouldn't have started out with a sandbox because I am kind of running out how to direct them of where to go. So I think I'm going to try and shrink it down to not a linear campaign, but still there's an end goal. It's not just live in the galaxy. Then I was like, okay, are they going to meet each other? Like how would these like disproportionate people just meet each other? Like, okay. And this scenario was like, okay, it's not going to be the meat in a tavern. It's going to be there in prison together. So, and they're going to this world to do manual labor, but circumstances get them out and then they just,
00:59:06
Speaker
Law of survival, you just stick together and then. And again, there's nothing against the classic and the less classic, but similar. Uh, we started a tavern or we start in prison, both are classic tropes and people like to. Exactly. Even in the writing community say that tropes are bad. Like, no, no, tropes aren't bad. They can be bad when they're used as like heavy-handed crutches. Exactly. And then I was like, okay.
00:59:36
Speaker
They met together. And what I wanted with my first world, I wanted it to be a microcosm of the wider scenario in the galaxy. So this world, there's factions vying for control, just like in the operator galaxy, there are factions vying for control. I think I described it to you as like, it's the starting location of like an MMORPG. Exactly. You got ah you get the the the initial interactions of like groups and factions.
01:00:03
Speaker
the idea that there's a wider world, but then once they get off, like that's when they realize, oh, it's this is way deeper than just the surface level of a planet. And this way, it also gave my players times to kind of get what their character was going to be like. One character is definitely just a brawler. The other ones kind of that smuggler cliche. Another is a smooth talking kind of spy like character. And then another is a mix between a shooter and a talker.
01:00:33
Speaker
And then they kind of figured out what they were going to play as. And they get off the planet. They're in the wider galaxy and have already set up like these, at least the big players in the galaxy. And they're like, OK. Then you're going to go over here. You're going to be helped by these allied NPCs who you've grown to care for. And they've grown to care for you during that microcosm on the planet. Then here's the galaxy. I've laid out some antagonists that they're going to meet along the way.
01:01:00
Speaker
and kind of just realize, OK, they're here. They're going to go maybe here, here, and here, because they like any like any aspiring people, they need money. So they've got to do jobs. And through those jobs, they're going to find these plot points, plot hooks, which will go over here, here, and here. And from then on, and that was my campaign. And one of the earliest things that you said, though, is always give characters incentive. Yes. And usually, that it comes in the form of the currency.
01:01:30
Speaker
Yes. And then they're starting, they're starting with less, they need more. And then with my, at least with the starting plan, I was like, okay, first thing is I need them to stay on this planet. And I was like, okay, how do I now let them leave? So I was like, there's going to be a shield around the planet. Cause this is a resource, which rich world that the previous empire was like, this is important. So we don't want anyone just getting in or out. So I was like, okay, then I'm going to have the current ruler of this planet.
01:01:59
Speaker
using that to his advantage, like there's a dangerous people on the planet and coming in, so I've quarantined the planet, you can't get out. And I was like, okay, your goal, your players goals, like I was new, find a ship and lead the planet. And to do that, you might have to topple a government. So you better get to it.
01:02:20
Speaker
and that's a strong It's a very strong hook.
01:02:27
Speaker
and I would like to talk about like the, the very much, being and very much so. Oh yes. Very much so. Yes. The by peril that I've encountered the campaigns. ah And what is that perils out? I think I know which one you think. I think you know, what's what I'm talking about.
01:02:52
Speaker
ah it It sounds like. like you're you're expecting your players to form some kind of uprising, Nick. I mean, that that can happen to the best of campaigns too. it and the The two times that I've attempted to do it.
01:03:18
Speaker
And a lot of that comes down to, there cliches can be cliches for a reason. And as we as as we enter adulthood and have to adult daily, ah like we all do, it become it can become tougher to make that time commitment that we've mentioned earlier on both sides of ah the screen.
01:03:48
Speaker
um you know i mean the
01:03:53
Speaker
little little bit of real world example, the past few weeks, trying to schedule stuff among all of us, I've had to say like, oh, well, yeah we're not available because we have this family commitment that the first week got pushed to the week after, which got pushed to this morning. And spoiler alert, oh it has been pushed back to post holidays now.
01:04:22
Speaker
So because the a third party involved in this woke up this morning and was ill. So it's been pushed back again. So that kind of thing, you know it's a it's an unfortunate fact of life and it impacts. Yes, definitely. It impacts games.
01:04:46
Speaker
Um, because at the end of the day, as much as, as we love these games, as much as we love these games, that's what they are. And sometimes something has to take precedence. And so so run games for pretty consistently for a long period of time. And even I, despite loving it, this is my favorite thing too. I sometimes was like, I need needed
01:05:17
Speaker
Needed need a day or two. A weekend off. Yeah, and it's not just a health day. I need to be there's also where players are just like either I'm burnt out or I got something to do or I just need a day to myself as well. That's it, that's yeah and that GMs especially have.
01:05:40
Speaker
have to recognize and i' also accept and players have to you it's an equal thing that you have to both understand each other. Yeah. And sometimes it just happens that you may have a particular game idea that you really like and you have put a lot of work into building that campaign idea. And for whatever reason, through no fault of anyone's. Yeah, it just, it doesn't click for the players.
01:06:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it just it just doesn't gel. It happens. It's and that's not every story is going to land, not every setting, even if it is a established setting is going to, that others work with. Like I, yeah I'm stubborn. I am holding onto it, but maybe I'll, maybe I'll work with, maybe I'll write it out for someone and someone else can do it. And they have like the right conditions to make it work. Yeah. And another pitfall of.
01:06:56
Speaker
At least one I've realized, at least about myself personally, is that sometimes there's a cane campaign I'm running. Players are liking it. But either A, it's not chilling with me personally anymore. Or the other is I found a new setting or a new campaign that I really want to do. And I want to scrap this whole campaign and do that one instead. And that that's also because your your time is limited.
01:07:26
Speaker
like that's probably like one of the bigger hurdles for a new GM is like you you've tasted how good it is to make worlds and campaign and that's a good feeling and it's kind of like a hit like an addiction is like you want that new feeling yeah or it's or at least for me it was just like campaign, I dropped to the cyberpunk campaign. I was like. Yeah, it's fun and they're doing fun, it's just. I don't have as much. Desire to do it anymore, it's like it was invested, and it's OK for a while, but then I was like. Down the road, I know you have more compared to cyberpunk. I don't want to do this more than cyberpunk, so it's like I'm not going to. I'm not going to delay or put it on a hiatus because I know I'm just not going to come back to it.
01:08:24
Speaker
Or, or, you know, yeah sometimes it happens that you're like, I have this idea. I love this idea. The players love the idea. Everyone has fun. You get a few sessions in and you're like, I have no place else. That's a danger I'm getting with my, uh, as of an empire, it's the campaign sometimes. And I know my players are invested and I'm still invested. That's why I'm trying to make the transition from okay.
01:08:54
Speaker
I made this as a sandbox. Now I need to condense it into a more ah elliptical campaign. And hey, for you to to know, you still have us. you we kind We kind of know the star war a little bit. yeah you and We could give you some help with that. wait yeah you're You're in a place.
01:09:17
Speaker
You're in a place where you've decided that you need to craft more of a story than a setting. Cause when I, when I did my world, yeah when I did my, like you said, my MMO start, I had the world, but I had more of a story for that. Once we got off that planet. Yeah. Once that we, once we got off that plan in the wider galaxy, I didn't really have that anymore. I just had a setting.
Campaign Scope and Endpoint
01:09:45
Speaker
And that's an important part that we can maybe get into like more in detail in like campaign planning. Yes. Yeah, we could, we, there's a whole, at least one i' say the entire episode which my can be while there's podcasts to say like, you have the players looking for how they're playing what they're,
01:10:14
Speaker
either goals or these personalities and I can help really influence where you go beyond your initial so first sketches. Yeah and that that's one thing that I have found when I'm coming up with a new story or campaign is I sit down and I try to think to myself I ran into that same kind of thing with a campaign that fizzled out my it was a star wars campaign I had It was a great hook. It was a great idea. The players came up with great characters. And we didn't even reach the first endpoint that I came up to because the dreaded cliche of schedules kind of made it fizzle out. But in retrospect, looking back at it, even though it was intended and pitched to them all as a long running campaign,
01:11:15
Speaker
I didn't have any place that I knew to take it after reaching that first endpoint. So it's something that when I sit down now and come up with with a new setting or campaign, like, okay,
01:11:34
Speaker
Would this be better served as a limited campaign ive or an ongoing campaign legacy? And that we've always taken character action. And like that's always again, it's a, you're building this story together, whether or not the players are actively telling you, this is what my character wants to do. Yes. And I think referring like.
01:11:59
Speaker
Okay. What would this character like to encounter or what would make it more sense for them to encounter? What would challenge them? Exactly. And I think legacy has helped me realize at least with my other campaign. It's like legacy, we knew off the get back. This was a fleshed out campaign. There was an end point. There was going to be no lollygagging, no going around doing other stuff. This was the campaign. We got it all set out.
01:12:27
Speaker
is
01:12:29
Speaker
seeing how the characters react to everything exactly catering to that it's that's that's sort of been my mentor lesson to you on that it's like yes you can have a bless out campaign you can have all the details written out
01:12:49
Speaker
Do you want players who to want to be a part of it and a good cater to the players at points so that they are constantly back in? You never know which one of them is going to like, or both of them are going to be brought in.
01:13:05
Speaker
And a good example of this kind of concept from other media yeah is HBO's Watchmen series.
Ongoing vs Limited Campaigns
01:13:14
Speaker
Because it was highly successful.
01:13:19
Speaker
And HBO went to Damon Lindelof, the show runner, and said, we want another season. And he turned around and said, we told our story. Tell it a story if he had another story. we yeah we We don't have another story. We put everything on the screen. Everything that we had to say is there.
01:13:47
Speaker
And there will there is no season two story for season two.
01:13:56
Speaker
And so that's the kind of thing that I've sat down when I'm coming up before I even tell anybody, hey, I have this idea. Would anybody be interested in playing it? I sit down and I try to think, OK.
01:14:13
Speaker
is does this lend itself to ongoing or limited? um my you for For the listeners out there, I did a limited Star Wars campaign that was loosely based on Les Miserables. I had been trying to crack doing a Les Mis Star Wars for years and I forget what it was that finally one of the app made it all click for me.
01:14:46
Speaker
Well, no i it wasn't one of the aftermath novels themselves. think i think i saw someone I think I saw someone online mention, ah you know, like setting a campaign on Coruscant, like during the aftermath novels right after Return of the Jedi. pops at you being knocked over Yeah. And I was like, that's it. That's my Les Miserables. Return of the Jedi is the French Revolution in Les Mis and the aftermath the framework storyline to the liberation of Coruscant is my framework.
01:15:30
Speaker
And that's my end point. And I sat down and I mapped it out and I was like, granted real time wise, it took over a year. My plan was to, for it to be a one year campaign with a session each month. Scheduling made it go longer, but the same concept applied. It was 12 parts. I mapped it out to 12 parts and.
01:15:54
Speaker
That was it. There's there's nothing past that. You guys may decide to revisit some of those characters in the future. It won't be that campaign. I did a similar idea, like I did Dark Forces, but instead of of Kyle Katarn as popular Star Wars character from Legend. Who did all these events in this video game from the 90s, very popular, very good. You can put fight on scene. But after
01:16:26
Speaker
but basically went through this the whole of that ah story of that game, but broke it up into a group of characters. Went through all the similar beats except for they skipped one level out of clever intelligence. That's a story for later.
01:16:50
Speaker
that That'll be an RPG glory story. Yes. From a certain point of view. But and another lesson that I had to learn becoming a GM was unless an element is essential to the story, yes exactly don't hold it too precious. that's one that you can' Don't hold it too tightly. yeah i've I've held like concepts and ideas of like, I wish that it could have gone
01:17:25
Speaker
A through D ways, but it's always like, I knew what they were going to do, do secret ops in W. Yeah. And I'll say my reason one. And had I still, I still apologize to you for that, Nick.
01:17:48
Speaker
We'll, we'll tell that story on Yeah. We'll tell that whole story on an episode sometime, but I apologize. And Nick, you can chime in as well, since it's about legacy is I really loved our villain character, Allegria. She was here. I loved playing her. I love being pretending to be here. Talking to the players. It was our first. It was our first. We worked on the character works out together on that. You just came up with that amazing performance for it.
01:18:19
Speaker
And then, but we always, I was thinking, I originally thought I was going to be the one playing it, but like you, you, the minute you found the voice, like instantly and I was okay. I was like, okay, you got it. Yeah. I always, I guess personally, I've always wanted to play a character with her type of personality. Cause I know in real life, it'd be a something you really don't want to do, but in a game, yeah, it's perfect. Yeah. But then we knew at the end.
01:18:49
Speaker
she was going to die. And then at the beginning, I was like, OK, fine. She's a character device. But once I started playing her, I was like, oh, we're getting to that point. I won't be able to play her anymore. Because I was like, even though i was you were doing the roles for her, like I was also like, ah. But I was like, that's how we know it's like one of the greats, one of the big performers. This is going to stick with them.
01:19:16
Speaker
yeah And I hope it did. we and And if not, it will stick between us because we that was our and that was our thing. and it's like Yeah, and we can actually we can ask you, Daryl, will Alegria stick with you? Did we do her justice?
01:19:33
Speaker
Oh, yeah. She was a lot of fun. And i I regret that my first postponed family commitment meant that I had to miss her final session. Yeah. but You'll have more moments. yeahll be more moments with i agree I'm pretty sure we're going to feel the same way with what we have in store. Oh yeah. Cause we were like, well, she's gone, but now we have the chance to make others.
01:20:04
Speaker
Yes. Now another thing that you have to learn coming in as a GM and what Being part of our group, you were probably better prepared for this than some other, other new GMs might have been, but you have to be prepared for players zigging when you expect them to zag. Honestly, that is a GM skill that is, could never be taught. It must be learned. As a player who has zigged and zagged in your campaigns, yeah I knew once I started being a GM, getting these same type of players, I knew what I had to expect.
01:20:41
Speaker
And what I had to let go internally, like they aren't going to follow your prompts, Robert. ah You just got to go with it. Like I had a friend in high school who taught me this lesson. We'll call him C.
01:20:58
Speaker
But his whole thing was like, okay, here's the concept of the story. And everyone's like, Oh, I'm the big warrior hero. Like I'm the stinky rogue. And it's like.
01:21:11
Speaker
Are there shrooms around? Can I eat them?
01:21:18
Speaker
what There's an NPC around? ah Can I steal? Can I steal his pantaloons? It's like, they're literally like the most nonsensical, non-essential task. Like, oh, we're meeting with the king. Can I stab him?
01:21:42
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like. As much as that frustrated me, but I also think it's like there's no one wrong way to role play. Yeah, and with our D and&D game, at least we were like, I'm sure you eventually realize this, like once you gave us that quest, we were like. No, we ain't going to do it that way. ah We'll we'll we do the quest, but we won't do the quest.
01:22:08
Speaker
we're gonna do it our way we're gonna do it our way every single question of everyone being like completely on board and playing their characters even if i made them for them and it'd be like character seat i don't care about that i'll just look at the stats and also had ungodly like keep roll 20s right in front of me and be like over and over again on the most absurd thing
01:22:39
Speaker
Now, as a once you got your feet wet as a GM,
GMing at Conventions
01:22:48
Speaker
I'll say Nick and I, but we know it was mostly me. What did I rope the two of you into doing a short time into your term as a new GM, Robert? doing
01:23:06
Speaker
The boat. Oh, you had us. Yeah. A convention game. Our little Lord of the Rings game. hey hey a A three, a three part success. I've never played in convention game. and Only once. And that's the first time I've ever played with complete strangers in that type of way.
01:23:30
Speaker
hi I had run one convention game one the year before. or twenty nineteen but This was my first at Star Wars celebration, but it was a system that I knew.
01:23:47
Speaker
And so what was your experience prepping for and running a convention? a convention game as but i'll go a relatively fresh GM. Second most relative GM. I was kind of scared. It was like, I'm used to running for time, like long period, like times and breaks for everyone, stuff like that. So I was not sure I could handle a time limit and tell, give the experience like I'm used to.
01:24:25
Speaker
Do you know that I also got, got ill during part of the event either.
01:24:36
Speaker
But what, what about you, Robert? What did, what, what, what was your experience? Well, with a convention, running a convention game, at least with GM eight's a little different cause. Yeah. It was limited period of time. So you do know with these campaigns, there is a set linear campaign. So you do.
01:24:53
Speaker
Have to do a little bit of railroading because you need to get through it. You can't have a lot of distractions, but for me it is accepted because exactly everyone else on this understands that. What I had that can reconcile is that. I don't know these people. I have no idea how they're going to act. I have no idea what they're going to do. I had a little bit of fortune because you and Nick knew some of these people, so you at least could tell me kind of what they're doing since.
01:25:21
Speaker
You went first, Dale. Can you just like, these people are going to come back and this is how they reacted to this and this. and dar little Thank you for telling me what you experienced because he helped me get home when I was not feeling well. So yeah, that was a good thing, but it was like, yeah, I'm doing this. I don't know these people don't know what they're going to do. I just have to roll with it. And if we, and we also had the time constraints of time goes a little too long. I'm going to have to shorten some things. And then the last thing I had to reconcile was just.
01:25:50
Speaker
Some players just get bad rolls for ah some of the most mundane things. Yeah. Over and over again. And you just have to go with it. It's like, OK, I just needed you to run through a battlefield. You keep tripping. Remember the boat on Whisperbase. The boat. We'll get to that one. That's a fun one. But it's like, yeah, I was not expecting this to be your hurdle.
01:26:19
Speaker
but even so I had a lot of fun. I even, one of the players even basically had a session nemesis cause this guy kept showing up pretty much beat the tar out of him the first time, but the second time he was able to win. So that was, that was good at the end, but it was like, I don't, my biggest hurdle was I don't know these people and I just had to improv with what they do.
01:26:48
Speaker
Yeah. Hi. I had run one the year before that despite having, thinking I had everything timed down nicely, I i had to speed run through like the last 30 minutes of the block. But um both of you in particular, I know from you hanging around and and talking to some of the the people at the convention
01:27:19
Speaker
They loved both of your sessions. I was i was incredibly surprised. Again, I wasn't feeling well and I came in just out of not feeling well.
01:27:33
Speaker
And i I know for a fact that one of the people who was in my session as part one and Roberts as part two,
01:27:44
Speaker
wasn't signed up for Nick's part three, but a friend of his was and let him have his place in part three, because he had had so much fun in parts one and two. Like, yeah I was not in yes, I i'm probably shouldn't have come there. I was not in the best of shape. It was like, I paid the money to be there. And do yeah, that's, and that is one thing we didn't really have a planned contingency if one of us had a problem. So we and Daryl kind of scramble, like the TV doesn't show, is it going to be me? Is it going to be you? My problem was like a literal one it in a thousand pants. Yeah. According to my dermatologist, it was like, he's like, I've never seen it done twice. Like, yeah, I wish it wasn't happening right now.
01:28:39
Speaker
And apparently I put it on myself. There was definite positive feedback. And um we we mentioned in our previous episode, Robert's house rule of um in the Star Wars system, which is what this was in, oh if the Destiny pool goes all dark side you're able to flip oh that's why i love them why yeah gave i say all of them because he's and they have
01:29:15
Speaker
Because they were worried about that. and um i aye I mentioned it in my part one. And several of the players were like, Oh, that's cool. And we're talking about adopting it for their games. Yeah. And then like we said last, last episode, that was also the first time I got questions. Oh, cool. Where's your podcast located? Can we listen to them? Like I, we don't have one right now, but it's like, it's here now. Well, right here well now we do the podcast is is real.
01:29:55
Speaker
It manifested.
01:30:00
Speaker
So we've we've been yapping on for a while about the transition from player to GM. Is there any part of it that we haven't touched on? I would say the big one that you got to learn, everyone's got to learn this, is that at a GM, you're going to discover your strengths, your weaknesses, and your limits, and you need to know which ones. Like for me,
01:30:25
Speaker
I've been told, I've realized, you've all told me, I'm great at making fights, structuring boss fights, structuring fights, little weak on the story. But I also need to learn my limits. Like right now I should focus on like campaigns with an end point instead of just having a setting and letting them go wild. That's a limit I've discovered and I got to go with it. I want to keep doing my strength in making boss fights. Which are great.
01:30:53
Speaker
and I need to work on my, and I need to just work on my weaknesses in making that story more cohesive and better. Sandboxes are hard. They're very hard. Exactly. The smaller the sandbox, the better. Yes. So that's what I've had to learn and what everyone has to learn. Know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't be afraid to ask your players what was good, what was bad. What do you think I need to work on? Well, that's in general, yeah. But as for me, I've had to learn, like, not every idea is going to hit.
01:31:25
Speaker
At least with the current group of players or maybe never this group of players.
01:31:34
Speaker
And are my limits? I know that I've just, I can't run as many campaigns as I used to.
Balance in GMing Transition
01:31:43
Speaker
Both because, well, it's a lot and delineates the quality, but also that I have.
01:31:52
Speaker
others to pick up in the schedule.
01:32:01
Speaker
My biggest lesson that I've had to learn for myself going from um excuse me player to GM is finding the happy medium of over preparation and under preparation.
Planning Horror Game Sessions
01:32:21
Speaker
there you I don't want to script everything out like I did in the old days and while there is something to be said occasionally for just walking into a session saying okay here's the situation I'm gonna drop my players in and everything I do is going to just depend on what they what they do and fly by the seat of my pants. You can't do a whole campaign that that can be assessed by session, but like you can't be like the only sessions that I've like dialed in. Yeah. I mean, on like what I want to do. It's been like anything involving like horror, like alien or Delta green. Like there was a specific points that I need to hit.
01:33:16
Speaker
And I make certain that. think about the players and yeah how they'll react, but mostly on like wins the scare, wins the jump, wins the hit.
Setting Realistic Expectations
01:33:27
Speaker
Yeah. And then there's another lesson both for this and just for life in general is that. Don't x don't set expectations for your to your players or to yourself that you know can't be met. We aren't all Matt Mercer. We aren't.
01:33:47
Speaker
Right all exactly and then and we shouldn't try to be and we aren't Stephen King we. We're just having fun yeah and we're just having fun and we just need to learn. Don't set expectations or promise something you know you might not be able to deliver and yes. That's easier to say harder to do. It doesn't matter the amount of effort that goes into it. It's your players and you giving even the minimal effort.
01:34:15
Speaker
would be just as great as any other like source of this type of media because you're working together and making a story.
Encouraging New Players and GMs
01:34:25
Speaker
One that you can tell to your friends, to someone went at a bar, to anyone, and that might inspire them to become players or game masters themselves. For sure. ah That's some good stuff that we have covered, guys, and I hope that that you out there listening have been able to pull some useful information from it ah and that, you know, it can help you make that decision to jump from player to GM if it's something that you kind of have your eye on. This is kind of just the bare bones. Yeah. yep Yeah. Just, just a conversation on the kinds of things to expect to, to look for, to have in mind as you're, as you're making that jump.
01:35:13
Speaker
And look forward to us, including our friend Robert in discussing more of the finer points. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll just say for any player watching who thinks about that transition, I'll just say one thing. Don't say you can't do it. Everyone's going to have that anxiety, but you can.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:35:31
Speaker
And most CMs have artwork players themselves. Yeah. Exactly. So never say you weren't creative up enough or you don't add what it takes. cause And for game masters who exist currently, extend the olive rats to someone you feel is promising. Exactly. Well, with that, I just want to thank everybody for joining us for another episode of the How We Roll Gaming podcast. Thank you for joining us, for Robert. No problem. Always glad to be here.
01:36:03
Speaker
And you can find information about all of our past episodes in your Podcaster of Choice or by visiting our website at HowWeRollGaming.com. um At the site, you'll also find information about the games that we can run, our current campaigns, links to How We Roll Gaming's social media, and a link to our Teespring merch store, where you can buy show merch to help us produce the podcast.
01:36:28
Speaker
Um, if you have a question you'd like us to answer a topic you'd like to hear us discuss, or just want to drop us a line, you can email us at podcast at how we roll gaming.com. And we hope that you will join us next time when we discuss adding new players to an existing group. Very intriguing and a rare occurrence here, but but one that's enough to warrant an episode. Yeah. It's happened more recently over the years. Yeah.
01:36:57
Speaker
Yeah. And so we hope you join us for that. And until next time, um thanks once again for joining us. I'm Darryl. I'm Nick. And I'm Robert. And this is How We Roll.
01:37:14
Speaker
This episode of the How We Roll Gaming podcast is copyright 2025, How We Roll Gaming, LLC. All games and associated intellectual properties are copyright their respective owners, and How We Roll Gaming makes no claim of ownership by discussing them here.