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00:00:01
Emma Kirk-Odunubi
302 Plays10 months ago
In this episode Michelle chats with Emma.
Emma is a Run Educator, Gait Analyst, columnist at Womens Running UK and Hyrox Ambassador.
Listen to hear:
- how do you know if you're ready to take on your first ultra
- different types of run/walk strategies
- hill training tips
- recognising the signs of - and avoiding - overtraining
- tapering
You can follow Emma on:
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Emma Kirkhoat-Nouvie
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi Emma, thank you so much for joining us on the UK run chat podcast today. Just for the benefit of our listeners out there, could you just give us a little introduction to yourself, basically? Yeah, thanks so much for having me. So my name is Emma Kirkhoat-Nouvie. I am a run coach by trade, have been kind of in and around the running kind of industry since I was about 13.
00:00:22
Speaker
first started doing a bit of gait analysis. That's how I learned kind of a bit of my trade and what I was enjoyed. And then went to uni, got my sports science degree, followed that whole path, worked for companies such as Runners World, Nike, Under Armour, Wattbike. So a bit been very involved heavily in the running side, but also in fitness in general.
Online Shoe Consultations During Lockdown
00:00:43
Speaker
And yeah, now I'll spend my days working as a one to one coach and also a Group X instructor for treadmill based
00:00:50
Speaker
classes too so a bit of everything. Yeah fab I've kind of seen you on social media talking about shoes and like running gate that's you know some really interesting information that you put out there. So do you still kind of do much of that or are you more you know what what do you kind of do at the moment?
00:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, so I do I do a lot of that still. So actually, the that side of it definitely came out a lot through lockdown. So I started to do online for consultations when we couldn't get to running shops. Yeah. So I created a way to be able to analyze the person's feet and foot function as well as get them to kind of send me in videos. And then I would help the runner find their shoes. And what was amazing about that was, you know, I was speaking to people from Sweden to the Bahamas to all these different places.
00:01:36
Speaker
So I still do that today online, but also in person too. Um, and kind of coach runners track side as well as yeah, in gyms as well. So a little bit all over the place and online too, as everyone does.
Importance of Personalized Running Shoes
00:01:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bit of a minefield, isn't it? We get a lot of questions on UK Run Chat usually, what's the best running shoe? And it's like, it's such an open-ended question that, I mean, what's, what's your views on that? How do you, how do you even begin to answer that?
00:02:01
Speaker
So the biggest way or the best way I always come up with that answer is there is the best running shoe, but there is the best running shoe for you. So everyone is different, right? We've all got different bodies, different mechanics, different injury history.
00:02:17
Speaker
I'm always using the analogy of if your best friend gave you their pair of glasses to wear, you probably wouldn't be able to see, right? Because they've got different eyes. So almost use that same analogy when it comes to running shoes. You want to make sure you go and get yourself tested and fitted for the shoes. You know, the brand might be the same. You might have, you know, the certain same makeup glasses, but you're never going to have the exact same prescription as such. So it's a similar idea in football, I always say to people. So yeah, the best shoe does exist, but for you.
00:02:45
Speaker
Yeah, no, I love that analogy. Actually, that's brilliant. I've never thought of it like that before. But yeah, yeah, equate it to glasses. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So what have you got coming
Upcoming Marathon Excitements
00:02:56
Speaker
up this year? I mean, you've got quite a busy, busy spring plant, haven't you? I do have a busy spring plant. So I am taking on Brighton Marathon, which is the 7th of April. So I'm in marathon fever with the rest of the spring marathon runners.
00:03:09
Speaker
I'll be taking it on for the second time and it's my home marathon so first time around didn't go the way I wanted it and I just kind of thought I can't leave it to put it to bed you know it's it's my home marathon I want to do it justice so going back to that on the 7th and then I'm doing the double as it were so the weekend after I'm doing Lake Garda marathon as well so my own little version of a week apart ultra so yeah I'm really excited for it more for the scenery I won't lie than anything
00:03:40
Speaker
looking forward to seeing what the body can do kind of back to back. I did a similar thing this year, did Manchester into London a week apart and the body was surprisingly good for it. So that was a dry run and then we're back in and then back end of the year, a few high rocks races, I'm not sure I've heard of or know about those. They are booming, right? Yeah, but yeah, I think they're tough from what I've heard about them.
00:04:07
Speaker
Yeah, they are they are a runner's game. So the runners out there who are wondering about it is a runner's game. So eight one kilometer intervals, basically, and then with a functional piece of kit on the floor for those who don't know what high rocks is. So all over the world globally. And yes, I'm going to be doing a couple of those back in the year and managed to get myself a place in Chicago Marathon. So the ballot was kind, the ballot was kind.
00:04:34
Speaker
Yes. And maybe we'll try and get an ultra in there in the middle, seeing if the body's still holding together. That's the goal. Yeah.
Promoting Gender Parity in Ultra Running
00:04:41
Speaker
So we are here to talk about ultra running today and specifically tackling your first ultra. So this is part of a very small series we're doing with the Threshold Trail series. We've organized some guests for us, including yourself, just to kind of promote gender parity, essentially, in ultra running. That's what they're trying to do this year, isn't it? So try to get the same amount
00:05:04
Speaker
of men and women running, which I think is absolutely brilliant. And I really hope that they they've managed to do it. I know they're talking to lots of people. What are your thoughts on why kind of women have kind of dropped out of ultra running a little bit recently? Because figures have dropped over the last few years, haven't they? Yeah, I think it's it's firstly, it's fantastic what threshold doing it's this, you know, as you said, this 5050 campaign to try and get their summer quality within that that running space, and especially the ultra space.
00:05:34
Speaker
And I think the barriers come from a few things. I mean, let's not negate the fact that just daily life to lifestyle factors, you know, raising families, all those kind of things will always fill out a schedule on top of work. So then, you know, women having the idea of, oh, you know, I need to devote my time to myself to train for an ultra is not the first thing that comes
Barriers for Women in Ultra Running
00:05:54
Speaker
to mind. So I think breaking down that barrier of getting people to understand
00:05:58
Speaker
how they can make training fit into their lifestyle and schedule. And then there's those other things that people don't always think about that women go through on a day-to-day basis, like thinking, oh, am I gonna do my run today? Oh, wait, it's dark outside already. I don't feel safe running in the dark, things like that.
00:06:16
Speaker
classically, our hormonal cycle, our menstrual cycle, that having an effect on how able we are to train and be physically active as well. So there's, there's so many little things. And, and then the other one to throw in there, which I say will probably cover it is confidence is it can be a big thing, you know, being like, Oh, I think I can do it. Maybe not sure.
00:06:36
Speaker
not really sure at all so that can be other things I think yeah you're right there's a lot of a lot of factors that we kind of on face value like oh there's not much but then when you really delve deep and see you know multiple different lives of different women there's there's a lot of things there yeah there's a lot going on isn't there it's tough yeah and I know I don't feel like I've got time to train for long distance at the moment my kind of routine is an hour's exercise a day and that's kind of enough anything else yeah that's good everything else in
00:07:03
Speaker
And so I mean, how are you fitting personally your your double marathon training and how's that going? Yeah, it's a similar thing at the minute. And I say I've actually this week on social media spoken about it quite a lot in terms of I am teaching on that.
00:07:17
Speaker
overwhelm phase where I'm trying to, you know, juggle, yeah, getting in the high miles, but also eating enough sleeping enough, then teaching them working and then do all the things and it's just and you know, I don't have a family I had to look after and support and things like that. But you know, it's still whatever feeling that that person feels is valid in that moment. And it's it's trying to try to find some sort of calm and find some organization. And
00:07:46
Speaker
for me, whenever everything gets all up in the air, I just write a list. I'm like, okay, there's loads of things happening. How can I write a list? And then I'll be honest, running's my head space. So I always try and make sure I make time for that training because it's time for me to just reassess if there is a lot going on. I actually find it very good sort of clarity making, clarity finding time when I'm out on a run too. So, yeah, no, I feel the busyness for sure.
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah, because we're reaching peak kind of weeks now, aren't we, for marathon training, especially? Oh, yes. It's tough. How are you approaching? You're doing two marathons
Training Approach for Marathons
00:08:24
Speaker
a week apart. You're obviously aiming for a better time at Brighton than you did the first time. How are you approaching the second marathon then? What's the goal? So I think the goal is to ultimately remove pressure from it.
00:08:40
Speaker
I think we can be our own worst enemies. So putting pressure on ourselves for, for both races, I think for myself is just not worth it. Yes, I have a goal in mind for Brighton, but I think what I do is I go, right. Yes, that's the goal. But the only thing I can control is what I can do right now today. So if today is cool, you've got to take off that run. Let's focus on doing today as best as possible. And it's those, you know, you hear people talking about those little 1% that add up.
00:09:09
Speaker
For me, it's called tick things off each day. If you need to skip a day or miss it, it's really not the end of the world because you can go again tomorrow. So that's kind of the mindset I have for it. So that second marathon after the first, we're going to focus on that first one first, see how that goes. And then, you know, that week after is just going to be a big week of, of fueling, of sleeping and resting as best I can. Yeah. Yeah. Recovery. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. All the best with that.
00:09:37
Speaker
Thank you.
Preparing for Your First Ultra Marathon
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah. So let's get into first ultras then. So, so let's start with you're looking to do, you're considering an ultra, you know, do you need to be running a certain distance already or a certain number of miles a week or be at a certain level of running? Where, you know, how do you know when you're ready? So I would say the best question to ask yourself straight away is how do you want to conquer the ultra?
00:10:01
Speaker
because you know, there's, there's many different ways. If you were like, I just want to complete it to do it, you can walk these ultras. There's, there's nothing that's what's amazing about ultras, right? You can walk them and you still conquered the same distance. It's not as comparison. What's the word comparison? High comparison, lively as let's say 10 k's, five k's, half, everyone kind of, I think the global sense is, oh, you're running a half, what time are you going for? Or you're running a 10k, what time are you going for?
00:10:28
Speaker
Whereas an ultra, if you're like, oh, I'm about to do, you know, 50K, 100K, everyone's like, you're amazing. You know, and that's what's so great. No. And that's the one of the most amazing things about it is because it's just an incredible thing to achieve. So whether you do want to walk it, amazing. Then that's your target. If you do want to run it.
00:10:50
Speaker
amazing. Yes, of course, you want to have some sort of mileage base there, be great to have done, you know, at least 10k heart marathon. So you know what it feels like to run for longer periods of time. But for me, I always say time is power. So if you sign up to that ultra and you've got, you know, for the ones in June, July with Race the King, Race the Stones, you've got a good 20, 24 weeks,
Run-Walk Strategy and Training Tips
00:11:13
Speaker
if not more than that now. So, you know, there's
00:11:17
Speaker
signing up and deciding that goal when you see the length of time you have available to you. I think it's, I'm here for it. I think any way you conquer an ultra is, is incredible. And that's what I love about them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just thinking about what you said there, you know, when you, because I think that's how I got into doing my first ultra marathon. It was, people kept asking me, because I've been doing quite a few marathons and people like, what time did you run? What time did you run? So you do kind of go into,
00:11:47
Speaker
to ultra thinking, right, I just need to take the pressure off myself. And that's what I love about ultra running actually, is that there is no, there's no time pressure, is it? And you mentioned that you can walk there. You know, run walking is a really useful strategy, isn't it, for an ultra? Can we just, yeah, let's talk about that a little bit, because that's kind of removing a barrier, I think, to entry, isn't it, when people think, yes, I can walk bits of it. How would that work then? How does run walk work?
00:12:16
Speaker
Absolutely. So within within an ultra or even even, you know, marathons as well, but within an ultra, especially like you can very much decide whether it's every time you see a hill, you're gonna walk it. I'm here for that. Every time you see a hill walk it. Another way in terms of conquering it is literally just in your mind before you even start the race deciding say it's 50k.
00:12:38
Speaker
I'm going to run 5k, I'm going to walk a K. And maybe every time you walk is when you're going to take on your fuel, you're going to take on all that extra stuff to help you keep going. So I think going in with a plan of how you're going to, but then in the same breath, we all know what it's like to take on a race. You have a plan in your head and it looks beautiful on paper and then the reality hits and you're like, so if you need to walk, just walk.
00:13:01
Speaker
And then on the spot, you can kind of mentally break down, right? How do I need to approach this? Am I gonna, you know, walk for this next bit till I see that tree over there and then I'm gonna run? Am I gonna
00:13:13
Speaker
know that, you know, you've got someone there who's close to a checkpoint. And let me let me walk to them, take on food, see them, get some good vibes, and then I'm going to head on to that run again. So there's multiple ways you can do it. And of course, doing it in training will definitely be able to help prepare you but come race day. That's when yes, you can have a plan, but sometimes knowing the plan might not always go to plan is the other side.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah, because of course it's it's that's the thing with an altruism. It's an unknown distance because we never go up to ultra distance in training, of course. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So the training
00:13:49
Speaker
I'd say for definitely your first, even if you've done a couple, you never ever ever want to cover the distance of an ultra in race day. Like the only people are the very small percent of top end elite that do anything close to and that's just maybe over two days, let alone they'll never go to that whole distance on one day. So it's a really, really important thing that I put into any client that I work with or ultras or anyone generally looking to it is
00:14:18
Speaker
you're entering 50k, great, you're not going to run 50k before you're going to build yourself up to a point for most people, it might be just under that marathon distance around the 20 miles is that great like peak distance you want to go for. And I also talk about a method of not necessarily doing one big run or session, and maybe splitting it over two days.
00:14:44
Speaker
Oh, now they're doing it. Yes. Yeah. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, so there's, as we talked about, you know, barriers to entry that many women face, you haven't got time if you're juggling loads of different things. And doing, for example,
00:14:59
Speaker
a 12 mile run slash run walk on a Saturday, and then going into another run on a Sunday that's a little shorter, maybe 10 miles, something like that. But you're doing it under that fatigued legs. So the body is still being able to understand how to keep going under fatigue.
00:15:16
Speaker
Now, there's multiple different camps that believe different things. Some people say going higher than your max mileage over those two days is a great place to shoot towards. And I genuinely as a coach do it based on person to person. If I see how they've recovered after that, and they're like, yeah, I feel good. Great. If we're able to build that into the next block of training, I'll push it a little more if they're like
00:15:39
Speaker
Emma, I can handle the run and that back to back, maybe we'll switch out that run for a 90 minute cycle. Yeah, and do a 90 minute cycle. And then the next day, do the hike and the walk there, all the run, you know, so there's, there's multiple ways, but yeah, double days, if you're really struggling for time, you don't have, you know, three, four hours on one day, it's a really good way to be able to make it more accessible and easier to work with.
00:16:05
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. And it is a very individual thing, because you never quite know how you're going to recover when you start adding up those miles, do you? You mentioned cross training there. That's, that's a really useful strategy. You're obviously big on strength training as well with, you know, high rocks.
Strength Training for Ultra Running
00:16:21
Speaker
Talk to us a little bit about the strength training that's important to do as part of Ultra training. What sort of things would you do for Ultra?
00:16:29
Speaker
The biggest thing I would recommend, it kind of goes without saying, you can probably guess is, is leg strength, right? So leg strength is super important. You're going to be doing very similar movements, hopefully that you're already doing in your strength training for other runs. But, you know, things like your split squats, things like your lunges, forward, backward, walking,
00:16:50
Speaker
all of those different movement patterns because whenever we run and also walk you're on one leg at a time and when you're doing ultras it's a prolonged period of time so you know when you're doing these let's say forward lunges you want to be pushing towards reps of 10, 15, 20 per leg to really try and build that stamina of course we can start body weight
00:17:11
Speaker
we can add on weight if you could put access to a gym of course you can do it with dumbbells a bar if you're at home add things such as a band add things such as weights and rucksacks like we did back in lockdown days you know like find ways to load things up so you're really putting in that work in the legs
00:17:30
Speaker
And then also probably not so looked upon in running, but something I really kind of drive home with a lot of people I work with is a lot of upper body strength, especially if you are going to take on the walking and you're going to think about using things like poles, because obviously if you are, you're going to be using that upper body strength and drive. And if you're not used to doing that, you're going to really struggle and that's a really effect kind of posture and then have a knock on effect further down. So definitely thinking about.
00:17:58
Speaker
of strength when I talk about that. I'm thinking about pressing. I'm thinking about things when you're rowing. So in a bent over position rowing backs will be strengthening those back muscles which help to keep us nice and upright for running. And then also the core but not just things like hold the plank.
00:18:14
Speaker
you want to be doing dynamic core work, you know, attaching a band to something, rotating through movement patterns. So you can work that core in a dynamic way that you would do in a running setting. So, you know, you're looking maybe one strength of legs a week, one upper a week, that would be a minimum. Yeah. How long? And if you'd less than roughly, what would you recommend? How long? So
00:18:40
Speaker
anything is better than nothing. Most people I say, if you can go 30 to 45 minutes, you can push out a session to 60 of course, but you want that session to start with one main lift. So whether it's a deadlift, whether it's the squats, you want that to be a core lift to start with. And then you bulk out the session thereafter with your accessory work. So those lovely calf raises that we all love to do things like
00:19:04
Speaker
box jumps imply metric work to help strengthen up the tendons. And then that's how you can kind of make the sessions a little bit bigger and obviously doing different reps and different sets too. So yeah, one of those upper and lower week. And then of course, little little extra ones I like to give people for after they're shorter runs in the week. So those calf raises, the little hip strength work as well. So that's kind of a basis. But yes, you can tell strength is important to me.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah, definitely, though, it's really good to hear you talking about this, because I think a lot of people neglect it just again, because of time. It's, you know, running is our priority, isn't it? But we need to be thinking about strength, because it's going to help us A, finish the race you want to do and B, not get injured whilst training. So yes, so important. So thanks for that. What kind of intensity sessions should we be looking at on the training for an up to do we need to be doing high intensity training? Or can it all be easy?
Intensity in Ultra Training
00:20:01
Speaker
So majority, I would say a good 80, 85% of it can be that low level steady pace. So those easy, you know, zone two, zone three might have hurt like a heart rate perspective. Or if you're using like a scale, I always talk about RPE, so rate perceived exertion. So one is easy, no taxation walk. And 10 is maximum all out, really heavy breathing, struggling pace.
00:20:29
Speaker
You want to be doing most of your training around three to five. That's where most of it wants to sit. And then maybe one session a week, if you can get it in, it's going to be that speed work. It's going to be things where you're doing hill run repeats, or if you're walking, hill walk repeats, where you're really doing multiple inclines back and forth. You know, I use a really simple one of run to a hill, 60 seconds up the hill, walk back down.
00:20:56
Speaker
repeat it 10 times run home. Yeah, simple as that, you know, and that's where your heart rate is definitely going to spike trying to run up those hills. And we're just pushing that other end of the heart rate spectrum so that your body's able to get better. Yes, the bottom end helps us, but you've got to do a little bit of the sprinkler the top end to then help everything
00:21:15
Speaker
build and be stronger. And if your goal is to be faster in that ultra, then yeah, you know, if you're taking it on for the second time, if you weren't adding in your hill work, you weren't adding in faster running intervals on a flat road, think about adding that in this time, because that could be the difference in making you faster overall. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, with any trail or tree mentioned hills there, we are going to encounter hills over a long distance that way somewhere.
00:21:41
Speaker
Most definitely. Any other tips for kind of training for those? You mentioned plyometrics, which of course can help leg fitness and some hill reps, you know, any other tips for those? So another really good one is eccentric work. So what that basically means is when you're doing, for example, a squat, let's just take a simpler squat, slowing that movement on the way down, adding a little pause at the bottom, then coming straight back up.
00:22:07
Speaker
So maybe counting down for five seconds as you go down. We're loading up those muscles putting more tension through them.
00:22:13
Speaker
then exploding and driving that power out of it and what that's going to help with is a lot of we talk about uphills a lot but downhills can really put some stress through the legs so on the downhills trying to yes of course do them in your training but with the strength work by you doing those tempo style squats or you can do it in lunges you can do it in deadlifts that tempo element of going down slowly will build that strength
00:22:38
Speaker
for the hills. So that's another really great thing you can add into your strength work to help, I like to call it bulletproof legs from the hills you'll encounter. As we said at the start, if that hill is just too hard and you're really struggling running a bit, walk. No one's going to judge you. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned poles, you know, if you are using poles, they can help you up as well, can't they? Definitely. Although they do take some training to use, don't they? Absolutely.
00:23:08
Speaker
I was chatting with someone from Harry's who's a kit provider and they were just, they were like, people come and they just go, yeah, I'm going to race tomorrow and I just want to get these polls and it's sheer panic. Because it's not just using them. It's carrying them. It's learning how they open. It's learning how to close them back up.
00:23:28
Speaker
And then it is, as we kind of spoke about with the strength stuff, the upper body, it's the upper body usage of that planting and pushing away over the top of the pole, which will shock your wrists and your shoulders. I've used them up in the mountains before as well, and it's a whole new ballgame. So yes, if you have poles and you plan to use them for your race, practice. And there's plenty of training available online to kind of teach you to do that, isn't there? But yeah, practice. Yeah. Practice.
00:23:58
Speaker
I guess the same goes for nutrition. This is where I've come and done before now in very long distance races is my tummy's gone. I don't like it anymore. Have you got any tips for just approaching that and avoiding that?
00:24:13
Speaker
Definitely. So I think in training that I've learned is when you, you're getting ready to go out on a training run, you're like, I just don't want to eat that same thing again that I've been eating for the last four
Testing Nutrition During Training
00:24:24
Speaker
weeks. I know my stomach probably likes it and gets on with it, but I just don't want to eat it. So my biggest advice is in your training, in your shorter training sessions, whether they're the shorter runs or walks, whether they're the shorter intervals, try something there so that if it doesn't work,
00:24:42
Speaker
you're around the corner from home. So I say to people, you know, if you've got to go out for a 60-minute run, do it on maybe a 15-minute loop of where you live so that if you're trying something new, if that stomach does cool, you can just know that you're very close to home. But yet trying everything, and this sounds, you know, strange to say, but it's not just the gels. It's not just the flapjacks. I heard a great one the other day, someone did,
00:25:10
Speaker
smashed up roast potatoes, like boiled potatoes, and then yeah. So just eating those cold with a bit of salt, ideal. Carbs getting into the body straight away and then salts to help with the loss from all the sweating. So that could be an option for you. Maybe for you it's crisps because similar idea. You can crush them up into a bag, grab those and eat that.
00:25:35
Speaker
frozen bananas is another one, especially if you're kind of in the summer and you want something a bit easier, banana chips, all these kinds of things. So yeah, the big advice on nutrition is everyone's different. So try multiple things so that in your training, you don't have just have to go for one version. So you know, if you like, cool, I'm always gels, maybe you start trying some of the bugs, you try all these different things. And as you said, it
00:26:00
Speaker
it can sadly be the undoing of some people. So practice it, I'd say probably more than anything else in your training. Yeah, start that early, as early as you can. Yeah, I like the idea of doing just in case. Yeah, very sensible. So we're chatting beginners and first ultras. I mean, how, when you obviously start building the mileage,
00:26:25
Speaker
How do you know that your body's responding well to it? Or how do you know whether you need some extra rest? Because we need to be looking out for overtraining, don't we? How do we recognize it?
00:26:38
Speaker
Absolutely. So firstly, over-training is basically the simplest description is when your body is overworked. You've kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. You haven't given it enough rest and you're expecting it to keep doing more and more load without giving it time to reset. So one of the biggest things I try and say to people is build in what I call it or what we call a de-load week.
00:27:06
Speaker
So that is a week where every, everyone's different, but roughly every four or six weeks, you have one week where everything is brought down. So I traditionally like to with my clients either, if they're running normally throughout those four weeks, sometimes I just take them off feet for a week. I go, everything that was a run is now going to be a cycle or an easy swim, but we still keep you training, you know, four or five times a week, but we just take it off feet.
00:27:33
Speaker
other people while keep them running the whole time, but will just drop the distances. So instead, last week, they were doing their top mileage of 90 minutes. This time that run is the exact same type of run, but it's only going to be 60 minutes. Yeah, so it's just allowing that body to be able to go, Oh, I've already done that before this was a lot easier. The other thing that you can try and do to keep an awareness on it is
00:27:58
Speaker
just be really honest with yourself, you know, especially if you're talking before with women in our cycles, that can have a really massive effect on your energy levels. So if you know you're that person who in that final week, before you're due on your period, your, your energy levels are just super low. Don't beat yourself up, let yourself take that rest day. If you can't take on that big run,
00:28:19
Speaker
Great. Do you know what? Put that time into rest, maybe have a yoga, a stretch, go and do something like Pilates instead, if that's going to work better for you. And just knowing that it's okay to adjust a plan. I think we get so fixated on like, I must follow the plan. It must be exactly what I do all the time, because that's what it says. Our bodies have their reasons for saying no. And we've got to listen to it sometimes. A lot of the time, actually. So
00:28:47
Speaker
definitely that idea of not beating yourself up, it's okay to just change the plan. Yeah, that would be my biggest advice. And you, at the end of the day, know your body better than anyone else, and better than what's written on a sheet of paper. So if you truly are like, I cannot physically do this, my body is telling me no, that's okay. Yeah, because sometimes it can be hard to differentiate between slight lack of motivation, because you are training a lot.
00:29:15
Speaker
And body is actually tired because sometimes I'll think I don't really want to go for a run and I'll get out there and I'll feel fine. So it could be hard to differentiate, can't it? But yes, I think so. Definitely. I hear that. Yeah. So important to just learn the difference. I know for sure. And the other thing I do sometimes I play a game of like, right, if you get out there and you're five minutes in and your body is like, no, I can't, then you can just turn around.
00:29:42
Speaker
five minutes. But if you get out there, as you said, and you kind of get moving, you're like, Oh, do you know what, the body feels fine. Then you know, it was just a little mental game you were trying to play with yourself. It's funny, because we do need to train our mind, don't we as well for an ultra, we need to kind of be a bit stronger. And when it says no, just keep going. Have you got any tips for that?
00:30:01
Speaker
So I always say to people, they'll be in your training, whatever plan you're following, they'll be in your training, something, a big session that makes you mentally question what you're doing. And the idea of that session, honestly, as a coach that programs them, it's not all about actually, you know, the reps that you put out or anything like that. It's about how you mentally approach it and if you can complete it. So, you know, there's sessions I give out to some people that I work with.
00:30:28
Speaker
that I'm like, I don't actually care about the numbers here. This is about seeing how you mentally overcome it and what your feedback is after you do it. So that's the other side of where that mental strength is built is actually in your training, not just on the day itself. Because if you build it in your training, actually, then when the mishaps and things that don't go right happen on race day, you will actually be prepared to be able to conquer them. Yeah. And things will go wrong on race day, won't they? Like,
00:30:56
Speaker
we're never going to have a perfect race. Oh, we're very lucky if we do. So how do you deal with that during the event when something goes wrong? You know what? I think it's it's things like running and you're starting to feel a hotspot on your foot and going, oh, no, I think that feels like something's happening. Blister, something like that. That can that can definitely happen. All right. And it's just knowing
00:31:26
Speaker
Um, one of the things I always tell people with it are an ultra to do is to carry tape. So whether it's like a rock tape or a K tape, so that if you start to feel a hotspot, you can stop.
00:31:37
Speaker
take off your foot, take off your foot, no, keep your foot on, take off your sock, take off your sock, place the tape over that area where that slight discomfort is before it becomes anything worse, especially if you're doing an ultra where you're going 100k plus, you want to stop the hotspots becoming more than just a little bit of a friction, because that's then when things can go, as you say, a lot worse down the road. What's so great at a lot of these ultras and what's so
00:32:07
Speaker
welcoming firstly as the community is amazing. So when you get to pit stops along the way, they will have things like the tape, they will have things like gauze, they will have people there to help if you have got issues with your feet and kind of kick.
00:32:22
Speaker
that's what's so amazing about it. Like if you are concerned, knowing on your group, the race you're doing, where the pit stops are, if you don't have the right tools on you at the time. So I always say, of course, try and have the right stuff with you. But yes, knowing that a lot of these races like definitely race the kings and stuff you get there and they, they see and you've got the kit and the blister plasters and all that jazz for someone to be able to help you out. So yeah, I think just knowing that it's okay as well if things do go wrong. Like it's not
00:32:52
Speaker
it's not, as you said, always perfect. They might be perfect. That's great if it happens. But yeah, for me, I'd say the biggest one is that that hotspot from a foot perspective. And then of course, we kind of mentioned it is is the stomach playing up. And you know, a lot of these ultras are out in big fields. And if something has to happen, you have to go, you have to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think again, that's we just need to accept that that that might happen, don't we?
Pacing Strategies for Ultras
00:33:19
Speaker
Talk to me a little bit about pacing an ultra then in terms of, we chatted earlier about in playing a room walk strategy, but how do we kind of decide what pace to set for ourselves, join an ultra? So for me, I would definitely start slower than you need. Start slower than you need.
00:33:44
Speaker
especially if you're deciding you are, you do want to try and run most of it is we get excited. Adrenaline is a magical thing. It gets us really hyped and buzzing, but it can also be a negative. It can make you go out too fast. And then, you know, you didn't want to be five, 10 K into a hundred K race and have gone too fast. So I'd say learning to.
00:34:12
Speaker
take everything in at the start and trust yourself and, you know, try not to rely on a watch so much. I know if you are going for a certain time for it, if you want to be that person, which is fine that there are people there and absolutely go and do that.
00:34:27
Speaker
But I'd say try and just do that that RP feeling I was speaking about, you know, start that race at about a six out of 10, six, seven out of 10. You don't want it to be out of your reach. I like to call that pace sort of able to hold a little bit of a conversation, but you're still a little bit breathless at that kind of pacing. And then once you get to your 5K or 10K mark, start to then check in and go, OK, how am I feeling? Am I feeling well? How's that fuel sitting after you've had it?
00:34:55
Speaker
How's the weather conditions treating me? Am I feeling okay? Too hot, too cold, all of those kinds of things before you then start to go, okay, now I think I can start to pick the pace up or actually uncomfortable. I'm just going to sit where I'm at. And it's, it's knowing in your body and that's where your training becomes so great because if you know, you're able to take on that pace for a long run that you've done in your training,
00:35:20
Speaker
and you ran for the length time and you finish that run feeling strong, you know mentally, oh, if I hold that same pace for the start of this, I know I'm going to be in a comfortable place in the very first half. And then it's that second half, as we said, because you're not going to really cover that full ultra distance where that mindset comes in and kind of that self belief needs to come out that would work for sure. Yeah. And any tips for dealing with those dark moments towards the end of a race to kind of boost us
00:35:49
Speaker
I think the biggest thing is knowing why you're doing it. So whether it's a challenge for you, it's something I've heard so many people and a lot of autorunners say is it's their why, is why they kind of when things get dark.
Building Mental Resilience
00:36:04
Speaker
For me, I've done I've done some ultra challenges, they're not runs, but I've done a once 24 hours of burpees, raising money for charity doing that.
00:36:14
Speaker
And let me tell you, there was some dark moments in there. And for me, I think it was, yeah, definitely the why that came through, but also I'm, I'm something that I really enjoy, like words of affirmation. So for me, my level that I say all the time, I say at my classes is yes, I can. So even when things get super hard and like, no, you can do this, you can, you can do it. Like it's, it's just one more, it's just one more step. It's just one more, right. And you're one step closer every time you do that next one. So I think it's.
00:36:41
Speaker
everyone's different, but the why is always a very strong one. And then that having that positive self talk because a very much it's very easy to be like, you're rubbish. I can't believe this is what's happening. Can't believe this is where we are. And you can just create a story that is just so negative and it's not serving you. So you're allowed to have those thoughts, but kind of going, okay, I know I'm annoyed at myself, but I can do this.
00:37:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think finding other people around you during an ultra as well can help, can't it? Like you said, you mentioned this earlier that the community is so amazing. There probably will be somebody. Well, there will definitely be other people feeling the same and you can kind of help each other out, can't you, and team up? Definitely. I think I've never forget it was when I was doing London Marathon the first time.
00:37:29
Speaker
And there's a big steep bit as you come out of Canary. It's like 19 miles-ish in. And everyone kind of turned around and was like, what are we doing? Why are we running up this? And I was like, it's because we wanted to, guys. And then we all just have a laugh, a joke. We can do this. It's hard, but we can do this. And it's that kind of thing. And you have that in the ultra community, but like times 100. So if you're feeling that, maybe even look around.
00:37:52
Speaker
this hill's big. Anyone else feeling it? We've got this, we can do this. And it's that say the community will rally around you because they are literally in it with you. Like always remember that even if you're struggling, there is someone in that race at the same moment, probably saying the same, if not worse to themselves. So just normalising it within that space actually is really kind of a freeing thing. So yeah, definitely the community there are just amazing. Yeah, you know, I love that. What we haven't mentioned yet is tapering into an event. What would you normally recommend
00:38:21
Speaker
the taper looks like roughly. And I know it'll be different. So yeah, different for everyone. But as a general, I like to have someone doing their peak load or peak volume about three weeks out. Yeah, so that you know, your body that peak volume is going to be something very close to if not the same loading idea as race day. So that last big run that last big weekend effort, you're going to be trying to
00:38:49
Speaker
nail your race day tactics in terms of eating, fueling, all of that kind of stuff. Your body is then going to feel exhausted. And it's very normal for that to happen because you've not even it's not just that one training run, it's the 1620 24 weeks before that you've been doing this, your body's been constantly going. So giving someone three weeks allows them to that week after that. So when you're down to kind of two weeks out, you want to be maybe adding one extra rest stay in.
00:39:18
Speaker
so that you're still moving, you're still ticking the miles over. For me personally, I start to kind of strip back off some of the strength work then, not loads, but you know, there's no need to lift big lifts anymore. It's like the mini accessory work, we're still doing some of the reps of lunges, we're still doing a few bits of the box jumps, but we're not doing a lot. Nothing that could cause any injury and that's the big focus as a coach is
00:39:42
Speaker
let's pull back on anything that called cause injury. So with a lot of people on their speed sessions, for example, I do their last speed session two and a bit weeks out, because I don't want us to pull a hamstring or calf because we push too hard when the body's fatigued. And then like a week out, you know, that Monday if the race is on the Sunday,
00:40:03
Speaker
you're just going to start to get all the other things, you know, the key things I always talk about is sleep, hydration, and nutrition all locked in. So eating good meals, meals that you've eaten before, but really nutritious, getting yourself good sleep, having a good sleep routine to try and really load up on that pre race day. And then making sure you're you're getting enough water in liquid, you know, like hopefully you've done that throughout your training.
00:40:28
Speaker
But that week of before, I'm taking hydration tablets. So with the electrolytes and things like that in pretty much every day leading up to the race, because I don't want to have a day where I'm thirsty in that week, I want to make sure my body is completely fueled to the best of its ability. And for those that have run marathons, I like to call it Maranoia. Yeah, ultra noir, we could call it where your brain is like,
Tapering Strategy Before Race Day
00:40:55
Speaker
I don't think I can do this." Or you're like, I've got a niggle. I've definitely got a niggle. I've got a pain in my leg and it's going to stop me from doing the race. And it's just having either a friend, a partner, a coach in your corner being like, you're fine. It's all okay. Don't worry. It's nothing. You're going to be all right. And
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah, so knowing in that last week, mostly the last week, I say, your your mind's gonna play the tricks on you and tell you that you can't do it. Because you're here, your ego is going to come in and try and tell you that you can't. And that's all those little thoughts that just go through. So yeah, that would be my that's kind of like my paper strategy is mostly three weeks out. Yeah.
00:41:34
Speaker
And then yeah, just trust in the process, bringing the running down in that last week, because it's just the finishing touches. You're just kind of ticking things over. You're not really going to gain anything in those last three tape weeks. So yeah, it's almost like a congratulations along the way as you go, like getting yourself ready for that race day. Yeah. Is it normal for people to feel sluggish in that period? Is that a normal feeling?
00:41:58
Speaker
Yes, because there's a sign your body's trying to recover. So you're you've done all those builds and everything. And then that week as you start to relax, your body's like, Oh, okay, we can, we can start to reset and start to pull back, you know, those easy runs, someone I've had many times when people going, that feels really heavy. Or I've been at myself, I've been like, Oh, yes, I've dropped my mileage in half this week, let's give it a go. And I'm like, why am I exhausted?
00:42:22
Speaker
And it's just your body is trying to recover from all the work you've done. So it's knowing that that's why you're feeling like that. And that come race day, you're going to wake up and feel great. And you're doing this now and that paper now because come that day of the race, you're going to wake up and feel feel rested and feel good. Yeah, yeah, so important. I will thank you so much. It's been absolutely fascinating. So hopefully
00:42:45
Speaker
people out there who are thinking about the first ultra will think, yes, I can do it. Any other tips? Is there anything we've missed? Is there any other tips if somebody's out there teetering on the edge of the first one? If you are considering it, firstly, just do it. What's the worst that can happen? What's the worst that can happen? You do training and you make a friend through the social world and then they're doing their training or
00:43:15
Speaker
you go, Oh, I'm gonna get a friend involved. And then two of you can train. And then you can, you know, the best thing I think about any sort of running, but especially ultras, as we've mentioned, time and time again, if you haven't realized by now, is the community is phenomenal. Yeah, you will meet so many people through so many different walks of life, trying to take on the same thing. You know, they'll be young, 19 20 year olds. And then you see people in their late 60s, mid 70s taking on as well. And it's just phenomenal. So
00:43:46
Speaker
just enter it, see what happens and it will change life. It will be something that you'll remember for a very long time. So I highly recommend it. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much, Emma, for your time today. Where can people find you if they'd like to see how you're getting on with your spring and summer goals?
Follow Emma's Journey and Resources
00:44:05
Speaker
Where are you? So most accessible is on Instagram. So it's Emma Kirkio on Instagram. You can find me.
00:44:14
Speaker
And that's where I kind of share most of my training journey. Also like to share some tips for everyone else going through it as well. So hopefully that can be useful. You can find it all there. Yeah, fantastic. And if you are interested in the Threshold Trail series that we mentioned, you can find out more at their website, which is www.thresholdtrailseries.com. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed that podcast, everybody.