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Mike Libunao-Macalintal: Reimagine Ritual. Process Things. Bear Witness.
64 Plays1 year ago
Mike is the director of communications and the liturgical minister at Marquand Chapel, the ecumenical ritual space at Yale Divinity School. Holding the position through the COVID lockdowns, he mentors students learning about the role of ritual in religious and spiritual life in today’s world. He assumed the position only a few short years after he graduated from Yale Divinity School.
CONTENT WARNING: COVID, collective trauma, anti-asian racism, Trump
We talk about:
Transitioning from a student role to a staff role at the same institution
Building spiritual community during the pandemic
Helping transition spiritual community and learning toward a post-lockdown environment
The critical role of grieving in processing trauma
What makes a good burger
And how to make ritual experiences accessible to everyone
Subscribe to Mike’s Substack: https://helloimmikee.substack.com
Follow Mike on Instagram: www.instagram.com/helloimmikee
This program is produced in south west philadelphia, in the unceded neighborhood of the black bottom community and on the ancestral land of the Lenape nation, who remain here in the era of the fourth crow and fight for official recognition by the commonwealth of Pennsylvania to this day. You can find out more about the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania and how you can support the revitalization of their culture by going to https://lenape-nation.org.
Visit this episode's sponsor, BVP Coffee, roasting high quality coffee that benefits HBCU students: https://bvp.coffee/uncommongoodpod
Visit this episode's sponsor, Poi Dog, chef Kiki Aranita creating sauces inspired by Hawaiian Cuisine: https://poidogphilly.com
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Transcript
Transformation and Grief: A COVID Reflection
00:00:00
Speaker
We need to be able to say that something is different to say we can't do it the way that we've always done. Yeah. What would it look like if we were to come from a place of transformation where we allowed to release ourselves from that to start and do? What would happen if we actually allowed ourselves to do that? And that means too, right? Like having to really allow ourselves to grieve.
00:00:25
Speaker
And we just might not have done that. I remember after Biden was elected, I can't remember if it was before his inauguration or whatnot. He had held a vigil for victims of COVID. I remember it being like, this is the first time in the last year where we've allowed ourselves to graze. And I remember crying watching that because
00:00:53
Speaker
We cannot actually do things unless we allow ourselves to grieve and mourn. I say, yeah, actually, we do need to start over.
Podcast Introduction: Meet the Hosts
00:01:09
Speaker
This is Uncommon Good, the podcast where we chat to ordinary people doing uncommon good in service of our common humanity. My name is Paul E. Rees. Fam, I am absolutely delighted to bring you today Mike Leibunau-Maccalental. Mike is the director of communications and the liturgical minister at Marquand Chapel, the ecumenical ritual space.
00:01:37
Speaker
at Yale Divinity School.
Sensitive Topics Ahead: COVID, Trauma, and More
00:01:40
Speaker
Holding the position through the COVID lockdowns, he mentors students learning about the role of ritual in religious and spiritual life in today's world. He assumed this position only a few short years after he graduated from Yale.
00:01:59
Speaker
Here's your content warning for this episode. We talk a lot about COVID and the lockdowns, we talk about collective trauma, we talk about anti-Asian racism, and we talk about Trump. So, viewer and listener discretion advised.
00:02:16
Speaker
We go on to talk about transitioning from a student role to a staff role at the same institution. How he builds spiritual community during the pandemic. How he helped transition spiritual community and learning toward a post lockdown environment.
The Role of Grieving in Trauma Processing
00:02:36
Speaker
the absolutely critical role of grieving in processing trauma, how to make ritual experiences accessible to everyone, and most importantly, what makes a good burger? In New Haven, Connecticut, you just go to Rudy's and ask them. Please enjoy my delightful catch-up with Mike Leibunau-Mackalental.
A Light-hearted Burger Debate
00:03:06
Speaker
So we're in New Haven right? Yes, but how good of a hamburger is Rudy? I I you know and I will just reiterate for the good people here is that I have not had a good burger in so long Yeah, and that was perfect
00:03:21
Speaker
it's free away and sometimes you know it's like it's also just it's it's the patty which makes a difference as it could yell are the toppings selected cook well i didn't normally don't go for pickles on my burger but that was delightful yeah and then the sauce was great i so yeah i've never had a burger for reedis until today and i've been living here literally for like i think i grabbed like a beer with some friends at the end of my first year sure but it never had i feel greatly blessed and it is a nice
00:03:51
Speaker
change of pace for Mango World. Is it what is your title now? Because you keep getting as it is added to it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So it is the full title is the Liturgical Minister and the Chapel Communications Manager of Mark on Chapel.
00:04:15
Speaker
So that is like all that is we can unpack that as a way, but that's really like the official title. Yeah. So my question is, which purchase exam did you put off and are you planning? Thankfully, none. And I'm grateful that I don't have any of that on my plate anymore.
00:04:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. As someone who also did not do well in logistics, I'm sorry. Oh, God. I'm also very thankful. But I'm sure you're doing fine down at the university or wherever you are. I think he's a Texas now.
Redefining Identity Post-Pandemic
00:04:45
Speaker
Are you a Texas professor for really? I hope that you will.
00:04:50
Speaker
But one of the, yeah, I imagine it's nice to not have the pressures of being a student, but I imagine there were probably other pressures that replaced that. Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting because so I graduated in 2020 from IDS at the very beginning of the pandemic. And I came back here after working in DC in fall 2021.
00:05:19
Speaker
and a couple of things, right? So my first day here, I walk into the chapel and it feels like I'm walking into a time machine and there's stuff that's still around there from when I was a student. So for me, I think a lot of the pressures were feeling having to redefine myself as no longer a student in this space. As somebody who occupied
00:05:41
Speaker
like an important role and one that is very outward facing, you know. And so all of the kind of like formational pieces of being here as a student are now for better or worse here to play.
00:05:57
Speaker
Right? And so now you have to model that for students. And you have to model that for students who have some inkling of what it was like to be here. Students who are coming into this very green.
Balancing Roles in Religious Communities
00:06:13
Speaker
and having very little institutional memory. And so having to model one model, like what somebody who has been to divinity school looks like, but then all these other complicated questions of, okay, I'm an ordained lay Catholic person who is now helping run an ecumenical chapel that's largely mainline Protestant. So how does that get folded into
00:06:38
Speaker
the expectations that either I have for that really I have for myself, but also the expectations that folks from various communities may not bomb to me. It's also somebody of like a color. So all of those things, right? All of those things start to collapse into this one body that is present in this space.
00:06:59
Speaker
five days a week. And so a lot of it I think is really having to untangle what expectations do I hold for myself? And what are the expectations that the ones that folks have of me or the ones that I am projecting that folks have of me in this space?
00:07:16
Speaker
The, we'll come back to projections. Sure, sure, sure. But one of the things that we were talking about our way over to the, to the, the hovers room where we're taping, I almost said the studio, I mean, because for the next, for the next 45, 60 minutes, it will be, but we, you made the acknowledgement that it's kind of like being the associate director of a parish on a Sunday, but five times a week. Yes. Yes. That's exactly what it is. I mean, I think.
00:07:43
Speaker
for folks who work in the church or attend any sort of like a religious community that is focused around one day. And there's like an implicit knowledge as both a participant and as a leader that it just is work, right? And you know this from being a student and also a chaplain.
00:08:00
Speaker
doing together. But every day is different, right? And so like, I mean, that's the way to place like Mark on Chapel where you have to balance ecumenical concerns, social concerns to balance who is in the space, who's not in the space. Is our theology sound? And if it's sound, is it
00:08:23
Speaker
Right? Like all of those things I think are on display. You have to be constantly thinking about how that plays out. And is your theology sound for whom? Exactly. Right. Exactly. So who is
00:08:38
Speaker
who resonates with that and not everybody is going to resonate with that on the given day of the week. And so you are just like, you are constantly juggling every day where every day is a little bit different, someone may be preaching, someone might be dancing, or there might not be any music at all, or, you know, folks are off of their seats all the time and are asked to be in different places or use their bodies in new ways or not. And so all of those things, I think, are at play. And we are also, we are doing this odd thing of
00:09:08
Speaker
creating a laboratory and also doing it in a holy way. And those two things can rebel up against each other more times than none. And that's okay too. I think that is an okay thing to do, but something warning five days a week is the best way that I can explain it. And when I say that, the response is, oh, I'm going to swallow by it.
00:09:31
Speaker
Oh, and then it clicked soon. All right. We're in there. We know it. We're there. So here's the question.
Rebuilding Community After COVID
00:09:38
Speaker
Okay. I know that a lot of things changed. A lot of the rhythms of life here at YDS changed because of COVID stretch. One of the most important things, at least to me, when I'm doing Sunday,
00:09:53
Speaker
is that I am properly caffeinated before, during, and after. Have they, as of yet, restored coffee hour after chapel? They have not. They have not restored coffee hour, and it's interesting because I think we're into this. I know, yeah, they have not restored coffee hour, and we've also entered this interesting phase where coffee hour was both a caffeinated moment and a community moment, right?
00:10:21
Speaker
if something happened in chapel or something happened during the day, there was just a valve for folks to be able to release some pressure, release some pressure, right, or process it together. And the way that the community is now, because of COVID restrictions, because we've also been in isolation, you know, three and a half, two years, we have to start over in terms of how we build community together.
00:10:47
Speaker
And so those things that maybe we took for granted in my coffee hour don't currently exist in this. When I talk to students about it as a past relic, folks, there's a desire for, or at least a question of what happened to it and what would it look like to bring folks together again, even for 20 minutes.
00:11:13
Speaker
yeah it took that that question touches on a lot of things that i well that's just this is right like it i'm now a socio liturgical wild west because totally none of the ways that we're used to doing things are permissible under kofit guidelines yes yes and and just like you know
00:11:34
Speaker
Now I feel like we are in this particular part of the pandemic where things have opened up and there's like an eagerness for folks to want to gather together. The thing, the temptation is to kind of return to what we've done before. And something I think we have to be wary of is, well, what are certain things we could actually just let die onto themselves?
00:12:02
Speaker
not coffee, not coffee, coffee, not tea, but maybe like, you know, is like, is putting a pizza in the middle of a conference room and just saying, you know, like, assuming that folks will come, working on assumptions of what was before, I think.
00:12:19
Speaker
It's a hard strategy to use, I think, though, because we are starting over, right? In my mind, we're going to be starting over for the next three years, three, four, five years.
Faith and Identity in Power Structures
00:12:32
Speaker
But building back up these kind of rhythms, I need to think a little bit differently about what goes into making those rhythms sound.
00:12:40
Speaker
Yeah. The piece that I think that I hear is that we need to redefine what things we do to make those rhythms, but the rhythms are still important. Yeah. The component of building community is still important. I remember this was probably the... I think this would have been the year before you matriculate, because you got here in Twice Habitat, right? Right.
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah, so what a bit I was here um when president or 45 got elected and that wasn't it was well attended service of chapel this three years that I was here and Hey See that's interesting right because like uh I'm gonna try to find a way to fight to
00:13:24
Speaker
It is interesting, I think we are at this like weird point now where I don't know if the same thing would have happened this time around. It's unclear to me who would be in the room if like, let's say, you know.
00:13:38
Speaker
It's bound its way back in. So if, say, for example, a certain celebrity doctor had won the race for congressional Senate in the state of Pennsylvania. It's unclear to me, actually, who would be in that space in particular should something monumental like that happen, because I think also even in the chapel, we have to be able to establish a direction
00:14:01
Speaker
of what we see the possibilities of church can be, of worship can be, of our faith can be. And so we're at this inflection point of where do we go next? And it's not entirely clear to me, not yet where that goes, right? I'm not saying, and I say this also just like, I know a Catholic person, right? And at the time of this taping, a new U.S. Bishop was selected who was
00:14:31
Speaker
really horrible on so many different fronts. And I see it as part of a larger trend of we're at a fork in the road. So I think we need to be doing some real, real hard interrogating our identity, our identities as they are in institutions and systems of power and belonging. It's a lot of wrinkling.
00:14:54
Speaker
No, but I think you found it. It's the perennial question. Yeah. Let's just keep doing it the way we've always done it. Our former boss and mentor, Maggie Dunn, had this chapter of that book. The title was, you have to change in order to stay the same.
00:15:14
Speaker
Ooh, so thank you Maggie Donna. Please be in the podcast. Yes, you shouldn't be on the podcast. Oh, you have to change more in order to stay the same. Yeah. What was, can you expand on that a little bit? I'm curious what the context was.
00:15:30
Speaker
Yeah, so a lot it was a lot of this sociological stuff was it was very important But we know we know Maggie the brilliant priest Musician mum that she has a keen eye for liturgy and if her integrating lots of different concepts Yeah in liturgy, right? It's like seriously, holy shit
00:15:53
Speaker
I have never seen a service where they have done hop songs in an Anglo-Catholic liturgy, but they did it. And I was like, damn. Oh, yeah. Well, it's actually, it's so, I feel like being in the second year, like last year was so, was just trying to figure out how to do this in this short year of actually having more time to be a lot more creative about
00:16:19
Speaker
about what we're doing and how that plays out in our services. That has been one of the biggest joys of being able to, so if we're running like change so that, we have to be able to change so that we can remain, we can stay the same. It's always, it's like, it's so much about possibility. And I remember we had a, very recently had a student who was doing a, was giving a senior sermon, late Catholic, and wanted to preach on solid
00:16:46
Speaker
lovely song songs and talked about what do we do with suffering in the midst of God's silence. And so he had reached this beautiful servant and it was like very, very Catholic, just like in the language and just the way that he had formed it. After that, we had the Yale Black Seminarian's gospel choir sing God is and having, I remember just like,
00:17:17
Speaker
I'm not sure how this is going to work. I'm like, no, actually, this is going to this will work. Trust me, I it will make sense. It will it will make sense and it will hit where folks need to be. Yeah. Where folks need to be met in this. And it was.
00:17:31
Speaker
It was beautiful to bear witness to that, to bear witness to folks allowing themselves and also allowing myself to be opened up to the possibility of what liturgy and what worship can look like. That was incredible. That was a really beautiful, beautiful
Sharing Ideas and Vulnerabilities
00:17:53
Speaker
moment.
00:17:53
Speaker
And folks actually are among for the ride, too. And I don't think we should doubt that people will not want to do those things or want to engage. The question I would ask, and this is what I ask my chocolate ministers, is if we're going to do this, what is the lowest and widest autorep that you're creating for people to explore this? If it's too high and if it's too narrow, it's not going to do the thing you want it to do.
00:18:20
Speaker
So sometimes that means tempering expectations or changing things up. But if you make it accessible enough and maintain the integrity or the sounds of it, really beautiful things happen.
00:18:34
Speaker
The thing that strikes me through all of this is that everything of your experience, I suspect has been almost, I'd suspect on a daily basis, maybe even a smaller level than that has been a constantly new, like new, new losing of COVID new, new, new years of chapel. Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder.
00:18:59
Speaker
In all of that newness, are you starting to notice things that feel familiar and feel more or less alike what they used to when you were a student? Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, it's funny because I think midway through last year, I just remember sitting or I was like people watching because sometimes I will just like randomly.
00:19:27
Speaker
look at the refectory at, you know, after chapel and see, and there is, feels really familiar and it did as a student. And it's hard too, right? Cause I think one of my hesitations with wanting to, with applying for this job and potentially returning was the danger of nostalgia, right? Then coded by what I experienced as a student.
00:19:53
Speaker
And I think this year too, especially coming into this as a second year, there's tenderness and a willingness, yeah, to be that leisure for folks. You know, we can ask 10 folks in this, that question and everybody will have a particular answer of what to be looks like, but it all sits under that same, under that same container. And that's really, it's been lovely, I think, to see that happen in its own way for this particular community.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's not mine. Yeah, that's been also you know, what do you think? Changed in the the heart space to allow for that tenderness To grow and foster. Oh, yeah. Okay the try I I've been thinking one of this question. All right, so this is gonna come off half baked take your time unpack I I think there is just like
00:20:48
Speaker
probably over the next, for the majority of our lives, our lifetimes, we will be unpacking the last two and a half, three years. However, we define the end of this particular, of this pandemic, of this moment, right? Like, however we- The harsher bits of that. Right. The harsher bits of that. And here, I don't, like, I remember early on,
00:21:12
Speaker
I don't know if you like see the solace messaging but there is a poem or something going around that like this is over a little tighter a little longer all these things that like a pine right and understanding like we are going to spend more time doing these things and you know like there are deadlines right and there are expectations but my hope is that and what I've noticed whether folks are aware of it or not is that
00:21:38
Speaker
They are taking their time and being intentional about, or as intentional as they can be, what and where to use the energy that they have.
Building Community Intentionally Post-Pandemic
00:21:48
Speaker
People in communities that they care about.
00:21:53
Speaker
The flip side of that is that sometimes that leads to folks siloing themselves off that there are a particular communities. But I think we've all experienced this thing. We all have. And not just the students. We all experience these things in, yes, varying degrees and in equal degrees. But we have all experienced these things. And some of us are continuing to experience.
00:22:18
Speaker
these things. Being at a place where folks have at least that same alignment or desire, what other option is there than to be tender with one another, to create space for folks to just be? I don't know. You can be in isolation, but I think we all know that nobody is an island.
00:22:41
Speaker
Maybe we're just, maybe we're just learning to, to do that a little bit more with one another, to take our time, slow down and be free. All those things, I think, part of that half make. Not just a delicious Ben & Jerry's flavor anymore.
00:22:56
Speaker
a day of like, yes, absolutely. It is the, one, half baked is probably a top tier of Ben and Jerry's flavor. But two, I think we'd also give ourselves permission to say that things are half baked and say that is like
00:23:12
Speaker
that's no case aid. I remember when we would have what was it like we would have like like teaching sections for like biblical studies or theology the the most awful thing you could say was not something that was entirely wrong but you could start a comment and give the preface I think this is half
00:23:34
Speaker
yeah this is a half fake thought and then it's like the irony of that too is just like and i'm i'm outing myself in this because i literally just did that but it's like you know half fake thoughts are often truthful and they're vulnerable and you are committing that like you might not have all of these so you're not you're the bad guy like
00:23:55
Speaker
Oh, I don't actually know how this is going to land. So in this particular space, I'm going to take a risk with folks and do so with the hopes that it is affirmed or at least like gently pushed and prodded back against that.
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah. Half-baked thoughts. I mean, we say they're half-baked, right? That's also, they are, they're in the process. They're becoming. I don't know. I think that's just beautiful. I think it's a lovely way that we allow ourselves to be pleasurable and truthful with folks.
00:24:27
Speaker
in ways maybe we're not used to. And also, if you bake a brownie too much, it'll be crusty, and that it won't be a brownie, it will be cake. Who doesn't like an ultra chewy brownie? Well, they probably folks are. You know. Yeah. Awful people. People who wear socks with sandals. Whoa! Ooh, okay, would you apply that to slides? People who preach in Crocs. Oh, yeah. It is a hot take. And I'll catch some flak for it. I willingly do so. I just don't think they're... That and slides. Like, I don't know how slides and socks became...
00:24:56
Speaker
came back into... Well I mean it's like come on, you're not on the beach working at a restaurant or in a hospital. So why do you need to wear something like that when you can just wear another shoe that's perfectly as comfortable and shows off a lot less of you discussing it?
00:25:13
Speaker
Exactly like you know, what was it? Why aren't the dogs out? Why are the dogs out like put them away? But I just yeah, I I feel very strongly about the the Crocs Renaissance 2.0 that just like I don't I don't get it. I respect it I will not yuck. You're young but I will not get a pair. Yeah. Nope I will stick by that for as long as I can and we'll let this be the record
00:25:40
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:26:36
Speaker
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00:27:01
Speaker
I want to pivot a little bit. At least one of the things as I was doing my research for the interview is that I believe you got an ordination by the universal life chart. I did at some point. I did. And I would love to hear the story. Oh, yes. In 2016, I was working for a Franciscan parish in New Jersey and in my office. I think I was just like, this is how you know questions of ordination have always just like been on my mind.
00:27:28
Speaker
It's like what real consequence would happen if I just like signed myself up. I saw it like Stephen Colbert.
00:27:36
Speaker
Oh, it's the uncle. Bear is like a lay, faithful Catholic person. He's done it. That's my reference point of the break. So then I just did it. It has actually been, I have officiated two weddings and my uncle's renewal of vows. And it has actually been such a light giving thing for somebody who does not see themselves getting word dating in the Catholic Church.
00:28:00
Speaker
it's just it's been such a lovely thing to be able to be a part of something secret for folks and for folks to be able to trust me with that part of their lives of their lives and saying like yeah I will happily be the conduit that says your union your marriage is is it you know and
00:28:23
Speaker
I jokingly had reached out to an old friend who's getting married in this coming year. I was like, oh my gosh, congrats on your engagement. If you ever need a fishing, just hit me up. And she was like, yeah, actually. Totally. I was like, are you sure? Yeah.
00:28:39
Speaker
So again, I think just being part of sacred moments on my bone turns has been really beautiful. And I remember telling my boss after the fact that I had done it, and she was just like, like, shoot, maybe I shouldn't tell the spot. But then I was like, you know, what's the worst that could happen to, like, if I, and especially now, I'm like, I'm a lay person who got his MDiv at an ecumenical institution, like,
00:29:05
Speaker
if excommuni- if for whatever reason I got excommunicated. Whatever reason that happened, like, okay, so I have a- there's a much larger body that I am a part of, and that's okay. Yeah. Anyway. It'll mean to move us into solemn territory, please, for what's been such an incredibly light, fun component.
00:29:26
Speaker
But I think that you're absolutely right, right? Like the work of the spiritual, we can probably narrow that even more to say the Christian form of the spiritual is a lot bigger.
00:29:42
Speaker
and a lot broader than we are oftentimes pulled. Yeah. That it actually is. Easily. Easily. And I just like, I think in 2020 I was applying for an associate street minister position with a church in Boston logo I named. And Catholic workery type stuff.
00:30:03
Speaker
I kind of, although I think they are actually an Episcopal Church, I think. And so I had made it through all of these interviews, right? And I think it was like in the second or third round. And I told them, you know, I was not ordained. I am a Catholic person, so would be sure in that capacity. And
00:30:21
Speaker
I think that's actually what the sticking point was. And I remember just feeling really dejected because it was a reminder of, though I think that the spiritual and the Christian church is much larger than any particular denomination. The spaces that I want to occupy are still very, I think,
00:30:44
Speaker
the spaces that are the communities that I want to be a part of are still beholden to a more stratified understanding of that. And I think that sort of tension has kind of followed me the majority of my professional lines.
00:31:00
Speaker
So far, this feels like a new season in my professional life, but it has always felt like this tension of how we put this cosmic cube, the sense of there's something much larger than it contains. We are really trying so hard to put it in the box, and because of that, it becomes really dangerous to hold.
00:31:23
Speaker
And so, yeah, the point is, I think, being here in this job and in this particular position and even going to school here, I would tell folks that I am the minister that I am because of the people I was surrounded by, the people who
00:31:39
Speaker
I've learned to do that from it. They have not. We do not come from the same tradition, but the spirit, we all rest in the same spirit. And again, we allow ourselves to be happy with one another in that.
00:31:54
Speaker
So this feels, so that said like that, this being here feels like a very special place to be able to do that and to create that possibility and to know that, yeah, we can sit outside and see is, see is okay. And if you need a floaty, I got you.
00:32:10
Speaker
That leads kind of perfectly here into the next line of inquiry.
Spiritual Roles and Personal Replenishment
00:32:14
Speaker
I can't imagine that this work is very easy because, at least in my experience, not to say that this is yours, although I sure bet that it could be. Being effectively the associate rector can often be a very, can have a lot of responsibility without a level of agency that certain might have. Yeah, I imagine that's difficult.
00:32:36
Speaker
the pressure of doing something like that under ever shifting lockdown conditions and safety guidelines means another layer of complexity. Yes. So I would really love to know what sorts of things you do to keep the well spring full and to keep the spirit buoy when things get really, really hard.
00:32:58
Speaker
That was a, that feels like a very live question. Yeah. I think especially because for me, these two years feel like very different experiences. Yeah. So far and more like 20 years rather than the two and more like 20 and two. Yeah, exactly.
00:33:13
Speaker
I think for me, last year and the year before, even if it wasn't a different institution, was about SureBible, right? And so what are the things that I would do to sure buy what Vegas would I do to kind of just keep myself afloat? And that was like maybe having Haven Hot Chicken over for allowing myself to
00:33:37
Speaker
sleep a little bit more, but the tending to myself was not actually to replenish a well spray more than it was to fill the HP bar about a quarter of the way through. It just kind of keeps going, right?
00:33:53
Speaker
because you just had to be on your toes. And not only did I have to be on my toes or like our staff had to be on our toes, because I had to convince folks that like, let's be on our toes together, constantly, right? Like we had started from 80 persons in the chapel to 100. Then when Omicron came, we had 10 that we were live streaming at 80 and then 165 that we are here now, right? We couldn't start singing in the chapel until March of this year.
00:34:20
Speaker
So having to convince people to be on their toes as much as we had to be on their toes, it was hard to find means of replenishment that didn't come until after the school year ended. So for me that was like taking a vacation and visiting three of my closest friends from dent school.
00:34:42
Speaker
Yeah, Nate, please. Joshua Garcia at Geramo de Sumala were some of the folks I just got to see. And for me, it was like, oh, okay, I actually needed to, my replenishment looks like returning to folks who knew me outside of this place, right, outside of this jewel that I have been. Nowadays, I now have a dog that I got midway through this past year, and I'm making time for her to do that. Then I think I owe myself the same kind of
00:35:09
Speaker
moments to be able to take care of myself. It has been like being intentional about maintaining relationships with people who have known me for 15-20 years and talking about things that are just not work-related.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, two of my best friends have moved in together. They've been years. Yeah. And that's actually been, for me, it's been such a beautiful, beautiful reminder of how, how important big moments in life. And when I see, so when I see, so when I see them like, Oh my gosh, like we are making this decision to
00:35:47
Speaker
into that free day together, share our lives together, share our routine together. For me, I'm like, that's what it's about. And it's like, so it's a good reminder for me to remember that and seeing it, especially with like tier ones that I care about, that it's like Mumford and something's layer up where you invest into your love, you invest your life, right? So
00:36:07
Speaker
I'm learning to find ways of doing that. We had to have a comedians on, so we have a lot of comedians list. Okay. We've had more than a few spirituality and faith practitioners on, so I suspect we have an increasing number of those. And same thing like college professionals as well. I wonder, do you get the same sort of spiritual replenishment from your practices, phallicism?
00:36:32
Speaker
now that your work is in liturgical and theological formation of others. Ooh, yeah, that is a great question.
Engaging with Faith and Church Challenges
00:36:43
Speaker
Once you know how a sausage is made, it is really hard to turn that off when you're in a butcher shop, right? Or when you're in a deli.
00:36:55
Speaker
And so I think for me, the challenge has been allowing myself the space to yield, allowing myself to not feel the need to nitpick or to, you know, criticize or to question is really to allow myself to just be present.
00:37:16
Speaker
And that's hard. Yeah, that really could eat so. That's really hard to do. And I think especially, you know, it's hard to do, I think, in the particular Catholic spaces that occupy. Sure. Sure. Honestly, because there are not many of them. More of the spaces that I occupy tend to be congregational, epistable. I don't know if that is more just like a Catholic.
00:37:39
Speaker
thing but that there it is a challenge I think at this particular moment to be able to turn off largely also right like in new haven so much of it is taken up by the university right and the most available spaces but in my vicinity that resonate with the things that I hold true are also largely occupied by
00:38:02
Speaker
members of the universities to his faculty staff, right? So then how do I then find a way to cleave those differences out is really hard. It's really challenging. And so in a weird way, having to go outside of Catholic spaces feels like a better way to be able to yield.
00:38:20
Speaker
And, you know, obviously there are some difficulties with that, too, but they don't feel, I think, as present. And it doesn't feel as present as it does in the Catholic spaces that I frequent here. I don't know that I actually have a question right now. I'm just sort of letting that fall over me because that's one of those things that for me is always the difficult thing, too, across all of the disciplines that I've worked with. Sure. How do you... I was always jealous of our colleagues that would say, like,
00:38:48
Speaker
the more I learn about how the sausage is made, the more I love eating a sausage. Whoa, right? I mean, I just like, I don't know if I feel the same way, you know, and I think part of it too is that the Catholic Church
00:39:03
Speaker
is so mired in scandal and dissension. And again, I think the church is like at this really big inflection point about what the church is going to be or what it wants to be. And so that plays out in the life of its parishes, whether they like it to or not, whether in the end to a move to or not.
00:39:27
Speaker
And I guess it also feels like a different question, right? Because the sausage that I'm talking about might not actually be what they're talking about. Yeah, absolutely. What I'm talking about actually is broader than this current iteration of the Catholic Church.
00:39:47
Speaker
Say more about the sausage. Well, I mean, it's just like, right? Like, again, right? Just this unordained Catholic person who is quote unquote associate director of this particular community, associate director, right? Like minister of this particular community. That sort of ecclesial imagination is far beyond if not opposite of the kind of liturgical imagination that exists in Catholic worship. Sure.
00:40:16
Speaker
Right? And so what that looks like and what folks are getting out of that is very different than the spaces that I am currently of. Like, okay, no, we are actually going to put way more focus on the Eucharist. Great. Amazing. And then really like in the sometimes clearer way than none, it's about the word that's delivered by the preacher. Yeah.
00:40:40
Speaker
for me, those are those are the things or the whatever the centerpiece is, is about energy. Yeah, that is more valuable than perhaps something as concrete as perhaps like a capital energy.
00:40:52
Speaker
And the way that that plays out in the life of its believers and its mothers. What matters is that the sausage just gets made. So it's a challenge. And sometimes it's just like, I think I'm done with it. I think I just want to step back. But once you see it, right? Like you can't unsee it unless you deliberately choose to. And if you do that for a while, you know, what then? That just seems like a really hard and taxing place to constantly reassert lockypault.
00:41:20
Speaker
It sounds like a lot of work. It is, and it is a lot of work, I think, that sits in one being. But I also, again, I want to be wary of, are those things that are happening in real time? But are they also things that I am projecting onto myself are happening?
00:41:39
Speaker
my sense of vocation and my own discernment about my place in the lower case c church, right? So I think it's taxing partially because I make it so. And, and I think because there's also like this real question of, do I stay or do I care? Yeah, right. And there's, and it's not a, it's not a binary question or a binary answer either. But yeah, I recognize that like my answer to that is very much ingrained with my own sense of place within this particular
00:42:09
Speaker
But at the same time, I mean, we're all people who have a sense of place. The people who wrote the documents that our faith is based on had a sense of place. Yeah, I mean, yes, they did. I think if that's the case, what's the place now? What kind of place or space are we creating now?
00:42:31
Speaker
We're very, we're becoming, we are becoming very clear about who we don't want to be a part of that space. So the question I would ask is who done what? Let's tell it a little bit more, Cleon. I'm excited for you to be moving into a season of your ministry here at YDS that will be decreasingly impacted by COAP. I hope.
00:42:57
Speaker
Who knows? Yeah, me too. It's weird though, because I feel like there's in some ways, because of the way that restrictions placed very clear boundaries of what was possible, it did this weird thing of having to actually, or what was impossible, and to do this weird thing of like, all right, what is actually possible?
Creativity in Religious Practices During the Pandemic
00:43:19
Speaker
And so last year, what we did for the Advent service, because of the rise of Omicron and what we couldn't do, we had everybody who was leading in the service be in the chapel and everybody else who was watching in the O'Neill factory. And we had made sure that as much as possible
00:43:40
Speaker
the two spaces were congruent with each other. The lighting was there, the way that we decorated the spaces were similar, so that in some ways, even if folks couldn't be in the space together, we were able to at least acknowledge that this was a thing that we were doing together.
00:43:56
Speaker
And so for me, when I think about how, what happens next, I yeah, I'm excited to think more about possibility. And it's also been a real practice for me to be better about crafting prayers and texts that that can speak to folks in a particular way. And
00:44:16
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. Maybe where we can do, we had somebody from Almond Ailey came by, Freddie Moore came by a few weeks ago and Willie Jennings read a little and he said, you know, when Freddie will dance afterwards, it'll do a little bit more. There's just beautiful synchronicity of things that were happening and we can do those things now because we're not as limited to restrictions. But there was also, again, right, there was also a certain grace of being able to see like
00:44:42
Speaker
just how creative can one be within a certain set of boundaries. So we'll see what happens. I think there's also something that just derives under chaos and pressure and that might be worth interrogating. It's kind of like Mark 1 Chapel became like a reality show.
00:44:59
Speaker
where there were these increasingly ridiculous tent stakes that got put down that you had to pivot around like cook a four course dinner in the snow totally yeah that's exactly what it was i mean it had 10 people in the chapel it was like only the participants the preacher and then we were switching between like
00:45:19
Speaker
worship aids that were being screen shared and also somebody monitoring all the people who were coming into the chat while watching the live stream in the chapel and making sure that was happening. I was like, oh, I didn't realize I became an associate producer in the course of a story weeks.
00:45:36
Speaker
It's fun for me. I do find a certain joy in being able to juggle because it also, for me, forces me to really think about how do I get folks invested in this and wanted to come along with the journey and that I think if we can do that, we can do some really transformative stuff.
00:46:00
Speaker
But at the core of it, we need to know how we're bringing people along. What are the things that we care about? We bring people along as to why this matters. Why does having a daily worship matter? Why does it matter that we block this time off in the entire day for nobody to do anything? And obviously it's not mandatory, but for a chance to do that. Why do we, why do we want to do this? Why is this important? Why is this integral to cool yards of institution? Okay. So then how do we get Phillips on board with that?
00:46:29
Speaker
I've got a little bit of a speed round for you and draw in an either or a sort of what for okay And this mostly has to do between with the transition from student To staff person. Okay, was you rather? Spend your evenings bartending at gypsy or at home now with your feet up because you have to
00:46:52
Speaker
And so it's actually called Griffin's Pub now. Thank you. No problem. And this has been such a live question all the time. I think today I will kick my feet up and play God of War, then go to the bar. Yeah. I think I've actually become a little bit more of a homebody. So probably, probably we'll choose the latter unless there was some convincing reason for me to be at Griffin's passing by the clock.
00:47:18
Speaker
If not, then yeah, I would probably choose a good drink, kick my feet up, play some God of War Call of Duty with my besties. Would you rather run a liturgy meeting with your chapel team? Or be in Intro to Christian Liturgy with whatever one of the Liturgical Studies class to your chapel team?
00:47:40
Speaker
Oh, running a meeting with my chapel team. I love, love, love, love working with students. And so I, yeah, I love doing that. And so any opportunity to do that? Would you rather be without a safety net on the first chapel back for fall semester or the adversary? Oh my God. Without a safety net.
00:48:03
Speaker
Ironically, I had to preach the first day of classes this year. So this is like, this, you're asking very pointed questions and it's giving me a very big Sean Evans vibes without a, that'd be amazing. Okay. First day of classes or Advent service without seeking that Advent service.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yeah, why I'm a service. I think it's because it is one of the few times, it is the only time where we really intentionally bring the community together. That's not cost related. That's not academic related. We say, you know, we are coming here to celebrate this new season, and being together. And obviously, there is a
00:48:43
Speaker
gathering that happens after the fact. But no, I think this is the only time where we are actually intentionally invited folks to come together as a community that's not tied to anything but being together. And so being able to do that with no safety net could be fun and it could be really beautiful. So I'll do that one.
00:49:06
Speaker
I hope the last two will be a little bit easier. Whiskey or gin? Whiskey. Okay, very good. And beer or cider? Beer. There you go. Very good. I should have eased you in with those because I feel like the Sean Evans show that you get harder as the farther you go along. Anyway, we've just got one last question to wrap up our time. Yeah. I'm so grateful that you spent the time that you came with. Thank you for having me.
00:49:30
Speaker
But this is the same question that we ask everybody as we close out our time together. And this is, what do you want the world to look like when you're done? I feel like, you know, I read, I heard this at the end of your trailers. I was like, I should prepare. Okay. You're the first guest that knew that this was a compliment. I know. I was just like.
00:49:48
Speaker
Cause I was like, this is such an interesting, what does the, what do I want the world to look like when I'm gone or when I'm done with that thing? You're gonna sit on it for a hot second. Take a minute. Take your time. Take two last seconds. I hope that when I'm done with it, when I'm out, that we're just a little bit closer to being done with it. That we're just like a little bit closer to not have to ask the question, to walk through the door and just sit.
00:50:14
Speaker
I hope that we learn to continue being tender with each other, to remember that a half-baked cookie is still a cookie, and to give each other the grace to not chase perfection, but goodness, and to just say, yeah, that'll do. Yeah, that'll do.
00:50:38
Speaker
My thanks to my guest, Mike Leibunau-Mackalental. You can subscribe to Mike's newsletter and follow him on social media at the links in the episode notes. Thank you so much for tuning in to Uncommon Good with Paulie Rees. This program is produced in southwest Philadelphia in the unceded neighborhood of the Black Bottom community, and on the ancestral land of the Lanape Nation, who remain here in the era of the Fourth Crow and fight for official recognition by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to this day.
00:51:04
Speaker
You can find out more about the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania and how you can support the revitalization of their culture by going to Lenape-Nation.org. Our associate producers are Willa Jaffe and Kia Watkins. If you enjoyed listening to the show, please support us by leaving us a five-star review in a comment and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help people find us.
00:51:27
Speaker
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