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Siobahn Sung: Experience Wonder. See Beauty. Change the World.
49 Plays1 year ago
How do we keep our spirits high in an increasingly post-human age? How can the classics of western art become more inclusive? How can our art help us move forward from trauma?
Siobahn Sung is a producer at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts in New York City.
Before that, she worked as a professional opera singer.
CONTENT WARNING: trauma, COVID, natural disasters, discussions of anti-asian racism, explicit language
We talk about: Emotional labor of Korean identity, the challenges of being a professional musician in the age of AI and streaming
the history of white supremacy in classical music performance and how to make the work more inclusive
the recent increases in natural disasters and COVID-related collective trauma
philosophy of beauty and its importance to the human spirit
and of course, the Yankees and the Phillies.
This program is produced in south west philadelphia, in the unceded neighborhood of the black bottom community and on the ancestral land of the Lenape nation, who remain here in the era of the fourth crow and fight for official recognition by the commonwealth of Pennsylvania to this day. You can find out more about the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania and how you can support the revitalization of their culture by going to https://lenape-nation.org.
Visit this video’s sponsor, BVP Coffee, roasting high quality coffee that benefits HBCU students:
https://bvp.coffee/uncommongoodpod
Visit this video’s sponsor, Poi Dog, chef Kiki Aranita creating sauces inspired by Hawaiian Cuisine: https://poidogphilly.com
we chat to ordinary people doing uncommon good in service of our common humanity.
we are creating community that builds relationships across difference by inviting dialogue about the squishy and vulnerable bits of life.
(un)common good with pauli reese is an uncommon good media production, where we make spirituality accessible to everyone and put content on the internet to help people stop hating each other.
thanks for joining us on the journey of (un)common good!
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Transcript
Global Thinking, Local Action Dilemma
00:00:00
Speaker
the experience of so-called think globally at locally, if that's possible, why is that so hard? It seems so simple. I think people get overwhelmed and they feel like I'm already left behind, you know, or they feel a sense of, yeah, of defeat. And again, I think also people don't naturally associate these kinds of acts as relationship, right? They don't see that, you know, in it, it's, it's relationship centered.
00:00:28
Speaker
community comes out of relationships. And so maybe there are folks who they don't feel connected to a community yet, or they haven't had the opportunity, or they're waiting, you know, to be found or reached out to. Yeah, it's just like you can take a moment just as quickly as you know, being turned on to like a new product that's being
00:00:48
Speaker
you know, shipped at you or yeah, people are selfish. That's also our nature, right? Like it's hard enough to contend with your own individual life, you know, but then the idea of being asked to make so much space for other people's lives, you know, that's the battle of humanity since the beginning.
Introduction of Siobhan Sung
00:01:17
Speaker
This is Uncommon Good, the podcast where we chat to ordinary people doing uncommon good in service of our common humanity. My name is Pauli Rees, fam. I am delighted to bring to you Siobhan Sung. She is a producer at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts in New York City. And before that, she worked as a professional opera singer.
00:01:36
Speaker
Here's your content warning for this episode. We talk about trauma, COVID, natural disasters. We have a discussion of anti-Asian racism, and there is explicit language in this episode. More in detail, we talk about emotional labor of Korean identity, the challenges of being a professional musician in the age of AI and streaming, the history of white supremacy and classical music performance, and how we can make the work more inclusive,
00:02:04
Speaker
the recent increases in natural disasters and COVID-related collective trauma, the philosophy of beauty and its importance to the human spirit, and, of course, the Yankees and the Phillies. I was delighted to have this chat to a new, good friend and a beloved collaborator. Please enjoy my chat to Siobhan.
Passion for French Repertoire
00:02:31
Speaker
So I do have a bit of a confession. While I was doing my grocery run here just about an hour ago, I was listening to a wonderful YouTube recording of a recital of yours from back in 2020. Oh my gosh. It was like in a church basement. And you and your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your, uh, your
00:02:56
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. Is that a personal favorite composer for you? Like it certainly fits your voice, like your, your tessitura wonderfully. Yeah. I love French rep. I think that French rep is, it's like demanding.
00:03:13
Speaker
It's really demanding in a particular way. And yeah, I think Debussy is beautiful. And beyond that, the pianist, Marianne, they had really, really responded to that piece. For me, it's length of phrases. It's the color, the emotion of a Debussy piece that you have to be willing to just fully commit to in order for it to be listenable.
00:03:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think not to get like super pedagogical about it, but I think, you know,
00:03:47
Speaker
French repertoire, there's so much particular style that's baked into that music just to serve the language properly, right? Like the kind of phrases and the cadence, you can always tell if somebody is singing French repertoire and they're not comfortable with the language, then the phrases don't sound correct. I guess they don't sound natural, yeah.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah. It sounds like a student piece. Yeah. Yeah. So, so for you, at least my, my experience of your, of your recital was that it was unhurried. Very, it was a very patient performance. There just felt like this grand luxury of time and delight in, in every phrase. What sort of work as an artist?
Musical Journeys and Backgrounds
00:04:35
Speaker
like for the inner preparation to on these these long phrases that need lots of breath what sort of like mental state what sort of mental practice do you cultivate to make that happen yeah well i mean i'd be remiss i'm sure
00:04:53
Speaker
Maybe some of your listeners know this about you right now, but probably you're also a vocalist, right? Like, that is true. Conservatory like you've sung in many different, you know, iterations and ensembles and probably solo. And yeah, I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to dig and see if I can find some some stuff on YouTube beyond
00:05:13
Speaker
Mama always said you have a face and also a voice for radio. This is this has not been talked about on on the the pod yet but the savvy listener can find a taping of an afternoon quiz show of me doing just a really awful like very nervous
00:05:31
Speaker
couple bars of Marriage of Figaro. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't say it's awful and you can't tell it's nervous. Yeah. How many people can just like, you know, even the, even the most practiced individual and the most quote unquote long-term professional opera singer. Like it's, I don't think it ever is like a natural easy moment when someone's like, Hey, can you
00:05:52
Speaker
Can we hear something or whatever? But yeah, kind of going back to your question about like, what's the what's the preparation? What's the practice? You know, and I think something that that's been a gift for me with singing is number one, I came to it very late. You know, lots of people who sing classical Western music, they've been singing
00:06:11
Speaker
since they were like a young teenager, maybe even before that, right? Which is also considered late with peers, like instrumentalists. But yeah, for me, I came to it when I was like, basically 20, right? It was a long
00:06:26
Speaker
long road to get there. It was never a road I intended to get to. And so with that, the luxury of that is that I was way less inhibited than my period. I didn't really care if I sounded bad. And also I think for me, that gift that I think I have is this very nebulous thing we talk about in voice, in vocal practice, which is called musicality, right? And
00:06:53
Speaker
Yeah, like I used to have a coach who would say like some singers like you they're like basic gifts and some singers get one if they're lucky and some singers have like, you know, three, whatever. And that's like, you know, language learning is one, right? And like, one is like supremely good looks, you know, one is like a stick memory, right? Like, yes, these are kind of these basic gifts that sometimes you identify in your peers. But yeah, for myself, I think I really always had, you know, a musicality and
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, what that means for folks who are listening who might not be familiar with that term is like, it's like an inherent sense of like, style, feeling, delivery, emotional connection. So really, like any piece that I had ever sung, or like practiced, you know, even if it was never performed, I always, you know, respond primarily to the text, because that's the great privilege of a vocalist, right? It's like 99% of the time we have
00:07:52
Speaker
privilege of text, no other musician gets that. And that really informs like the feeling. And if I'm singing with a true feeling, carrying that responsibility, I think that the body just sort of follows it, right? Like if you're singing something that's like ethereal and poetic
00:08:10
Speaker
and you're in that space, your body just responds to that, right? It doesn't gear up in the same way. Like if you're singing like a revenge area or if you're singing, you know, like something completely not programmatic and more, you know, experimental or whatever. Which are also fun and in their own way. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. With musicality, what I hear you saying is you just feel it.
00:08:35
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And I know that's kind of like an asshole thing to say. I think it's time, you know, again, this thing that we hear and experience a lot is like, as a vocalist, your instrument is hidden, right? It's like in the inside of your body. It's so inextricably linked to your feelings. And that's why you can feel so bad about yourself when your voice isn't like doing what you want it to do or whatever. Yes.
00:08:57
Speaker
But yeah, like for me, again, it was just like a great gift that I'm a sensitive person and I've always been that way.
Childhood Influences on Musicality
00:09:05
Speaker
And my intuition has been sharpened through a variety of different
00:09:10
Speaker
experiences and that intuition has made more space for that musical sense. Intuition is a really good call for it and the different sorts of things in our past that help us cultivate that sixth sense, what it is. Can you point to, would you be comfortable sharing any moments from the history of
00:09:37
Speaker
Siobhan, that stand out as moments that helped cultivate the sense of intuition and musicality? Sure. Yeah. I'm like, how many minutes in are we to talk about like family trauma already? You know, but I think, I think honestly, you know, I grew up in a household where a lot of responsibility was placed on my shoulders to metabolize like emotions for my parents, you know, and I'm an only child.
00:10:05
Speaker
or I was an only child for all of my childhood and, you know, only until like relatively recently in my life. So yeah, I still identify as an only child mostly. And certainly that was, you know, an appropriate way to describe my childhood. So I think I was kind of socialized that way through my parents. And then, yeah, just the constant socialization that happens anyway outside of a home, but
00:10:33
Speaker
the idea of cultural influence, having a background that speaks to different realms of high context, right? And so those theologically coming from cultures where the demand is quite high for you to anticipate
00:10:53
Speaker
people's reactions to you or to take on the responsibility and burden for navigating their emotional scape. That was really impressed upon me super early as something that would make me
00:11:08
Speaker
an obedient child or a good child or an extraordinary student or whatever. And so in some ways, yeah, that undo kind of burden that started so early has really primed me to think more about, you know, transmission, you know, whether it's in an artistic sense or just an everyday interaction, I still have to sometimes really wrestle with being like overly biased toward the other, the others like
00:11:36
Speaker
you know space and feeling and all that before that of my own you know which does make you a better opera singer i think you know sometimes but yeah i mean premature implied emotional management of others in unreasonable circumstances we clearly could not be korean at all that's not at all who we are
00:11:55
Speaker
I mean, it's just like part of the list, right? Part of it definitely like has that network to like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. One of the fun things I think of opera and musical performance in like digging into a text.
00:12:11
Speaker
at least for me, because I remember my early days at Debussy and early operatic work being an associated male-bodied person and having a lovely, not quite profundo voice, but low enough to where you could pass for that if it's before 9am in the morning.
00:12:32
Speaker
You get railroaded into certain roles, and I think I remember disappearing into characters being a really novel way to sort of release out some of that energy of the emotional management of others and the other, and the sense of the othering that comes from having to hold other people's shit.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe it's kind of anarchic to say, but like, it is anarchic to say, but you know, art, right? Art is manipulative, right? Same Latin root as artifice, you know, what we put on and what we hope to kind of
00:13:16
Speaker
engage with and provoke or invoke, you know, these things. It's like, it's a huge part of the process, right? That's why these are so tied to like all other kinds of manipulation, political, religious, you know, healing, you know, healing medicine. Like it's all there. It's, it's always been there. It has a power to communicate even in spite of human limitation.
00:13:46
Speaker
Yes, yes, which is this kind of like a superficial sort of allegory to this. But you know, I always tell people something. I'm a big Yankees fan. I love baseball, you know, period. And I'm a big fan of
00:14:00
Speaker
you know, watching a lot of the American League teams play through the regular season. But like, yes, some people don't know about Yankees games is like, they always end with New York, New York, right? If you go to your home game, they play Frank Sinatra's New York, New York. And when you win, a lot of people sing along. And it's a really powerful thing to be in a stadium with like, tens of thousands of people, sometimes almost 40,000 people singing
00:14:30
Speaker
this song, right? And there are not a lot of other baseball teams that have that kind of musical ritual, right? You know, I mean, except for like the national anthem and the take me out to the ball game, you know, the seventh inning or whatever, but this thing that really belongs to the identity of a collective. Yes. You know, so I think about that all the time when people talk about the power of song music.
00:14:55
Speaker
Since we're on the topic of team sport and we're in a pro sports season where multiple Philly teams have reached national championship games, I need to apologize. Thank you. I need to apologize.
00:15:10
Speaker
I apologize on behalf of my city for the behavior of our fans. We actually just had the news release that they have doubled the standard supplies of telephone pole grease that are used, if you know anything about Philly. So the Phillies were just in the World Series.
00:15:33
Speaker
The Eagles are headed to the Super Bowl. When we won the National League, am I saying that correctly? The National League Championship. I think I am. I wish I knew. I wish I could speak intelligently about sports. You are. You're doing good. Thank you. Infinity. What? When we won last week, even before the final score had become official, because it was very clear from early in the game that we were going to win unless we just walked off the field for the end of the
00:16:03
Speaker
the the last quarter quarter that's right they're called quarters there were already official announcements by the city i think on our on the city of philadelphia's twitter that they were greasing the telephone poles in order to discourage fans to climb from climbing them and they were and they do this intentionally through the the the city government social media to be like
00:16:29
Speaker
Please, please, please just don't like, please, please don't do anything stupid. Like don't make us have to arrest you because we'll have to arrest like all of South Philadelphia and all of Northeast Philadelphia. Yeah. If they can make it through the flipped cars and everything.
00:16:45
Speaker
The funny thing is, subsequently on Twitter, I saw after that was broadcast. I was really laughing at, this is the beauty of Twitter. All these people came on saying, this is a centuries old Italian tradition. They provided all these
00:17:03
Speaker
old photos like dating back hundreds of years of people climbing poles and like hanging smoked meats like during celebratory seasons and saying like it's in our blood you know like we're going to do it like especially for Italian you know and uh just like speaking to the inevitability through like this like yeah who knows like yet unverified wood cutting pictures of people like climbing poles during harvest you know really really just uh i mean i love it i think it's quite romantic
00:17:31
Speaker
I think people who just find this joy, right? Incredible joy. Anything like fan-based. I love it. I'm always really moved by that. Even when it's like against the morals or like totally not in line with anything, I'm interested. I'm like, wow, like the dedication, the
00:17:49
Speaker
commitment. I would love to see a fan cam video mashing up the guy who climbed the telephone pole this year to the party five years ago of them standing on the Ritz Carlton marquee and it crashing in. And then the same guy five years ago who ate
00:18:12
Speaker
the horse scat from the mounted division. That was one of the best possible things. That's what TikTok is for. If we weren't happy enough with Vine, that's what TikTok is for. Rest in peace, Vine.
00:18:26
Speaker
Rest in Peace Vine and Quibi and CISO and all that. Is Broadway World still around? I feel like that. I wasn't anticipating this and I wasn't trying, but this actually segues. It's a nice sort of pivot point to one of the things I've been thinking about.
Digital Transformation in Art
00:18:46
Speaker
You work as a line producer for the Lincoln Center, which means for the layperson, that's essentially the producer in charge of the budget.
00:18:56
Speaker
other things but but Briley speaking there we are
00:19:00
Speaker
One of the things I've been thinking about is the work that you do to help produce art. Back in musicology school, a Walter Benjamin essay, the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction, and how he was just thinking about with the notion of like the phonograph, the record player, like how technology is changing the way that people receive, consume, digest art.
00:19:27
Speaker
As someone for you whose job it is to work, do the work of helping to create that. Not only that, but creating your own. I wonder if you can reflect with me a little bit about how you see people
00:19:42
Speaker
consuming, enjoying, participating in, and even creating art in the digital landscape of the now, what, second? The now third decade of the 21st century? What does it feel like for you?
00:19:57
Speaker
God, what a gigantic question. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because, I mean, first I can speak to the fact that I think the Center for the Performing Arts is, you know, is this behemoth institution that even if people are not aware of the hand that it's had in programming in New York, you know, since like the mid 20th century till now, people are aware of
00:20:20
Speaker
at least the constituents that exist on the campus that create art in their particular medium. So some of the most well-known constituents on the Lincoln Center campus include, of course, the Metropolitan Opera, the New York City Ballet, the New York Philharmonic, Juilliard School,
00:20:40
Speaker
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Those are just, right? First, yeah, I have to acknowledge that because since May of last year, most of my conversations around art, conversations around funding of art, you know, is informed by my full-time job here, right? And then underneath all that, that like drives my exposure to those things is like what I like, right?
00:21:08
Speaker
And I, like any other red-blooded American, definitely, like, I hate admitting this and I don't know, I shouldn't hate it because it's just, it's just reality. But, you know, I spend a good amount of time looking through TikTok and Reels and wondering, like, what is it that people are now, like, you know, feigning for, like, what are people interested in? I consume a lot of
00:21:31
Speaker
you know, media through streaming, you know, and like, I spend a bunch of time also like asking myself like, what is what am I telling these algorithms about myself? And how much of it is because like, yeah, I'm being fed all this like, information, you know, secondarily, you know, we're on a tertiary level or a quaternary level or whatever, like through sure.
00:21:51
Speaker
young people that I'm like watching their media and reading, you know, continuing to read and then continuing to go to performances. And again, swinging back to the first thing I named, which is like really investigating where is where does the money flow in terms of like technology in the intersection of art, right? Who's being funded? What kind of art?
00:22:13
Speaker
is speaking to those with the historically deep pockets who've continued to fund art in certain spaces, et cetera. So I tend to have a rather cynical view of technology and art intersecting right now because when you have in the millions and billions of dollars to give to an endowment to fund particularly technology-centric art,
00:22:39
Speaker
I don't think that the stuff coming out on the other end is actually what's sustainable. Because I think the very culture of technology right now is still about ephemeral, digestible, very quickly digestible and current and urgent things people respond to in like 30 seconds or less or whatever, maybe even 20 seconds or less.
00:23:06
Speaker
And it's still not something that can really be it's not something that can be perfectly qualified, you know, even with people who have teams of folks who study behavioral science, or again, can anticipate reactions to whatever, like, even with that, right, there's like, so many misses. So for me, I am interested in folks who
00:23:33
Speaker
whose personal research and practice has seen an evolution of like,
00:23:39
Speaker
technology grow very incrementally in their career. I'm not interested in somebody who I might have never ever heard about having a career suddenly appear with this giant resource behind them, you know, and saying like, I'm producing this art. I mean, maybe that sounds very judgmental on my end. Maybe it sounds like what I'm saying is like real artists like don't rely on technology. And that's not what I'm saying at all. But I guess I've kind of talked myself into a circle here.
00:24:09
Speaker
I think what I hear is a question of how the artist comes to a place of agency, whether that agency is earned over a decades-long body of work, or now in the case of the algorithm, whether it's unexpectedly earned with a viral video.
00:24:33
Speaker
Yeah, mimicry really, right? Like in most cases, I wish I could, I have this, I have a friend who's artistic practice like blows me away. She's an incredible, I can name her, you know, I'm not gonna talk about, her name's Chris Ramon, K-R-I-S and then last name R-U-M-M-A-N. Here's the thing about Chris is like, but what I can say about Chris is she really intrigues me. Well, first of all, she's just like an amazing person to talk to.
00:25:00
Speaker
I really enjoy my conversation with her. And secondly, her body of work in a variety of disciplines reflects a very clear thread of identity and investment on her part.
00:25:15
Speaker
And some of those projects that she's ideating or working through, they do engage technology, right? And sometimes technology already exists in every day, but she's found a way to, I don't want to say like, she's found a way to like really freak it sometimes, you know? I love that. I'm really interested in that.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah. I'm more interested in that kind of methodology as opposed to someone who's bringing something to the table where it's like tech for tech's sake, right? And it's like this amazing thing does this amazing thing and it costs this many amazing amounts of dollars to make it do this thing.
00:25:53
Speaker
Right? Like it's like when Oculus kind of came on the scene and tech could really foresee the development of like, I don't know how much I can say these things in your podcast. I'm not sure if these need to get, go ahead. That's fine. Like we're, we're not sponsored by anybody as of yet, as of tape date. That being said, Google, come get at me. Yeah. Come get Ash Yvonne. Come get at fly paper. We'll get there in a minute, but like no complaints.
00:26:19
Speaker
with Oculus, it's impressive tech, right? And it's probably been talking about our entire lifetime, right? Whether hecatecples are like fantastical, like, whatever, but then it arrives. And then the question is, is like still there, right? Like 24. Yeah.
00:26:36
Speaker
how much can you really ask the everyday person to like invest in this piece of machinery that's super cumbersome even if it wasn't cumbersome right like to put on your head that doesn't consider like accessibility for folks across the board and then like watch a movie in there i can already do that without that thing or like walk around a world
00:26:58
Speaker
You know, there are, so this is a thing, like I'm like more of an AR person than a VR person. I'm interested in AR, like augmentation, augmented reality. I think that approach.
00:27:09
Speaker
is something that's always been in art, right? And this feverish pitch about making art on some other plane that's more super liminal or hyperliminal. This is bullshit to me. I'm just not interested in that. So maybe the only sort of space in which that activates and excites me is when it's completely tied to science.
00:27:39
Speaker
So this may be like antithetical to what I just said, but like, for example, people who study exoplanets, right? Like these planets that like we will never ever be on in our lifetime or beyond and hypothetically never know enough about in the time and the distance they are away. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:59
Speaker
And they use a bunch of money and technology to hypothesize about these. I support that. And I think that is also artistic. The Oculus Rift is just $100 or so more expensive at its current cost than what the 1995 Virtual Boy by Nintendo cost. Right. Exactly.
00:28:21
Speaker
So it's like, and that, and that was like $300, like in $300 in 1995 dollars. So, so what Oculus rift is a cup is a couple more like five, six, I don't know. I don't know, but like, right. And honestly, Polly, like from that scope, right? That like your era of Nintendo, what excites people more? The memory of that. I don't think so. I think people remember the glove, right? Yeah.
00:28:47
Speaker
Yeah, that that piece number one I think the other piece is that we're we're messy beings right like we have competing ideas and and yens that we hold intention together and I think sometimes we feel like we have to it's not okay to hold things intention when like that's that's
00:29:07
Speaker
just a fundamental reality of our existence that I know I shouldn't have a cheeseburger, but because I just watched the menu like four times while I was cleaning my house, like I can't stop having them. But this is an innocent tension, right? Like what for me with the producer brain, when I'm considering again, billions of dollars being allocated to like one project that I can't
00:29:35
Speaker
answer the empirical producer question for. So for me, the most important question a producer must be able to answer is, why does this need to exist?
00:29:46
Speaker
Why does this need to exist in the world? My revulsion of that tension is that if I don't sway that, the pattern of what gets made and what gets produced is just not accurate and reflective of the people we are. There's going to be just countless numbers of artists who could never have those resources,
00:30:14
Speaker
or never need to have those resources, suddenly not just be seen and like just erased, you know, their visibility is just gone because of some flashy shit that makes people with a lot of money go like, ooh, you know? Yeah. The same 200 canonized works will continue to get programmed on the same like 10 year cycle of... Same 10 pages in the same halls, hallowed halls.
00:30:44
Speaker
you know, whatever. Yeah. Just with some other fancy gimmick. Right. Right. Yeah. So because, because we're, we're already doing such a good at solving, solving the problems of the world, such a good job of solving the problems of the world. We've already talked about the nature of being the non-binaryized other, like racial other and, and, and clearly solved that, especially as relates to like early, like childhood and early adulthood.
00:31:11
Speaker
What do we do about it? Is it fair to name it? Can I just say that conventional Western stage art be so white? Is that fair to say? Yeah. What do we do about the whiteness of it? Yeah. Question? Yeah. So God, isn't that always the question, right?
00:31:30
Speaker
And I think that we've seen, to no surprise, after some of the really critical questions about how we treat each other or how we acknowledge or shy away from the systems that shape our country particularly, it's no surprise that we've seen just this abundance of guilt, of white guilt. And sometimes white guilt
00:31:58
Speaker
though personally disgusting for me to experience, I can acknowledge that it does sometimes make a path, right? Even if it's just using the door open a little bit where there's just been like, you know, a veritable marble structure is just holding it shut. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, I, I am really under, I'm under this kind of like kind of punk sensibility where it's like, when the door opens even a little bit, like just kick it down. Right?
00:32:26
Speaker
go for it, like demand the money, take up the space, take advantage of unprecedented space, right? So I think during this time, I'm not here to like, you know, just praise Lincoln Center, but I can say, you know, by my existence there, right? By the sheer ability that I've been given to curate programming under this like new artistic leadership there,
00:32:56
Speaker
You know, that's a direct result of that time, right? Of people saying, oh shoot, you know, we're, we're being called in or called out or whatever, you know, we're being called on to respond.
00:33:10
Speaker
And we're going to do that by hiring more people who don't look like the typical people and who don't think like the typical people and who, you know, maybe don't live in the same neighborhoods as like most of the people come to see our art. So, yeah, like, again, you know, we can point to the Internet and, you know, that's like the mother of tech. Right.
Diversity and Inclusion in Arts
00:33:30
Speaker
As this this time where we saw a huge proliferation of art being made easily and cheaply. And, you know, for example, like
00:33:39
Speaker
I was listening to something not long ago that spoke to the fact that like queer comedy really took this huge leap during the pandemic. Like even the visibility of like queer writers. The fact that you could even think like, oh, there's a show about queer centric themes and I know there's queer writers in that writing room. That's not something we could have said, you know, in 2018, 2019, right? So yeah, to like flatten this enormous shadow
00:34:09
Speaker
of the white institutional presence, it is happening. It's happening through just people showing up, people bringing their community into bravely and sometimes against all difficulty. We can't blame people for not wanting to bring their community into opposition.
00:34:31
Speaker
into the oppressive space, right? But more consistently that that's done. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, yeah, like I think force force is not a bad thing. And I think experiencing something give way because of your will, because of your community's willfulness. It's a really magical and revolutionary thing. And something that like, I don't think a lot of Americans thought that they would see or have to contend with in their lifetime. And I'm really happy that
00:34:59
Speaker
that we're living in that right now. A common theme among previous guests of the podcast has been our very existence, our presence, and perhaps even our very survival is in itself an act of resistance. Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. There is no such thing as an apolitical other.
00:35:20
Speaker
What I think I hear in that is that there is a sense of moral authority that is starting to be challenged. There's a presumptive moral authority, certainly around Western Eurocentric classical music. The crystallization of the 19th century symphony orchestra, vis-a-vis the era of
00:35:44
Speaker
culminating in the era of mauler etc all of which just represents a particular version of of music that would quickly be become from the the largely public
00:36:00
Speaker
and perhaps not pedestrian, but at least accessible form that it was at one point to now this form that is still thought of as being one of the highest forms of music in terms of aesthetics and beauty and poshness. I'll even go as far to say, but it's become by and large highly inaccessible to nearly everyone.
00:36:29
Speaker
I would say even most white folks, there's not an avenue to actual personal enjoyment outside of the expectation of enjoyment with the exception of maybe college students for that rush ticket, I don't know. Right. And I'll say this, this is an extremely petty and not nice thing for me to say, but something I found
00:36:53
Speaker
like just incredibly hilarious was watching these companies come to that realization during the pandemic because they all were like tripping over each other trying to make digital media like beautiful beautiful recreations of like what people were missing out on right like these people thought oh i just have to like make people
00:37:15
Speaker
feel like they're back in the hall or back in the theater, but they didn't understand the medium through which they were trying to do that. And even when they did, quote unquote, successfully do that, nobody watched that shit. Very few people watched it. Even fewer people wanted to pay for it. And I just I loved that. I thought that was like just the most delicious like schadenfreude like ever because like, of course, like, do you see that now? Like, why would people want that?
00:37:44
Speaker
they need something different. And you are tired. On a personal level, I'll just say both conducting, producing, and then doing the post-production for virtual choir video was exasperating.
00:37:57
Speaker
Of course it was because you probably had all the people telling you like, this is how it's got to be and la la la. And it's just like, no, like, sorry, you cannot take a live experience and try to recreate it somehow through a digital experience. Because what people want from a digital experience is something that they have, again, agency and engagement within. They don't want to sit in front of a computer and just be like, I'm at the theater. Like, it's not the same thing. And I don't know why people didn't
00:38:26
Speaker
grasp that very fundamental truth. Do you think audiences have changed? Because we've spent so much time paying attention to digital media, which you've identified represents the capacity of the viewer to have a level of agency beyond what we would normally associate with the cinema, the symphony, the ballet. Frankly, most of the stand-up shows that I sit in or some of the long-form improv comedy that I've coached recently,
00:38:55
Speaker
How do you see the behaviors, the needs of audiences changing as the world starts to open back up? Yeah, I think this answer, have audiences changed. I think they are changing more now than they ever were before. Yeah.
00:39:10
Speaker
I think younger people, while maybe in their immediate localities, don't have access to the whole breadth of, you know, theatrical experience or artistic experience, that they know that they could, right? That it exists, like, you know, maybe 20 years ago, there's a teenager in a place like, you know, Bloomington, Indiana. That's not a good example because there's like a lot of offer there. Let's just say like some teenager in some very remote, you know,
00:39:37
Speaker
can only piece together based on like past media, like their idea of seeing, you know, a performance that's outside of their everyday, you know, access. Sure. It's not the same for a teenager today, you know what I mean? And this idea of like, people being
00:39:54
Speaker
really like globalized and homogenized by their by their like social media intake and you know what they're accessing that accessing that way and then you know just sort of this like kind of middle generation also still having that technological facility and the people who determined audience behavior or buying practices or subscription practices that's really small now right like
00:40:22
Speaker
Those it's like this reverse telescoping effect now where we're seeing audiences being more populated and i mean of course i'm speaking to this privilege of being new york city and having a different. Experience of that but i can guess right i can guess that there are people throughout the country again who just have a different.
00:40:41
Speaker
different breadth of access that they didn't have before. Yeah. My parents still have my tapes of Jan hooks and Phil Hartman's era of Saturday Night Live rolling around to your point. And now, of course, because of the wonders of an unnamed video streaming service, so does everybody else. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And yeah, so I think this entitlement has has been a good thing, right?
00:41:11
Speaker
gone out into the world where people are like, I should be able to see that. I should be able to access things in retro. Yeah. I should be able to have my parents' Netflix password. Yeah. Another hilarious walk back, right? The entire corporation saying like, oh, just kidding. We saw the imminent closing of a door. Oh, no.
00:41:33
Speaker
Yeah, I want to do a little bit of a New York speed round. This is a sort of like, what's your favorite or either or round? Feel free and offer as much or as little explanation as you like. What's a better day out? A really good Sunday gravy somewhere deep in Staten Island or a Sunday hike wandering the outbuildings of Governor's Island?
00:42:00
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that's hard. It's hard. I think, I don't know if most New Yorkers have been to, been to Staten Island. Sorry Staten Island. And you know, for, of course we have to acknowledge that not everybody calls it gravy too, right? Depending, even if you're from an Italian American background, it's like there's the gravy contingents and then the sauce contingent, you know? But yeah, for me, I would say, yeah, I'll go to Staten Island. Why not? Seems like a, like a deep, deeply freaky place to go.
00:42:27
Speaker
Governors Island, it's a little sanitized, I think, now. You know, what happens there, people identify with Coachella, all that. Now, Randall's Island is a weird place. That place, I think, kind of demands a visit. Thinking about the demise by inflation of the dollar slice, are we losing one of New York's great institutions, or was it just really shitty pizza the entire time?
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah, you know, the thing is, I have to defend it. I think that is a part of my like, New York crest is that the dollar price and the pizza that's available here is by and large going to Yeah, it is better than most of the pizza in the country. It is the best. It is the best bar none. You can't tell me anybody else has better pizza. We also proven to have better water here, which as we all know, you know, everything in water is
00:43:24
Speaker
bread, you know, and how that takes the reason why we have great bagels, right? Yeah, no, sorry, it'll come back. The dollar slice will come back to the true dollar. And the quality has remained just as good.
00:43:36
Speaker
It'll be the size of a Dorito, but yes, it will come back someday. That would be great. I would love that. What is the best touristy attraction that you would actually go to without having to guide someone around to it? Yeah.
00:43:56
Speaker
I think this speaks to what generation of New Yorker I am. Not necessarily actual age generation, but I moved to New York in 2012 and the High Line had been the most anticipated fixture of the West Side forever. And when it was established
00:44:20
Speaker
like everybody was on there. I mean, people are still on there every single day, but I do think it's a beautiful walk. I think that they have featured a lot of great art on the High Line. I think the High Line's programming is great. Yeah, it's just gorgeous and it's free. It's free. And even when it's cold, it's nice to be up there. So I think it's always worth having people go see it. And finally, why is Connecticut
00:44:45
Speaker
Oh my god, I can't say enough bad things about Connecticut, honestly. I guess like the only thing really holding Connecticut together is what someone's alma mater, a little school that rhymes with bail. I don't know what you're talking about. No, I'm very grateful for my time at Yale Divinity School and the School of Drama and the tutelage of Wendell Harrington and the myriad number of beautiful people who are creating beautiful art that I happen to
00:45:10
Speaker
No, I have an email address for from being there. Anyway, I will say if there were a place that we're going to have serious contention for a pie that rivals some of the pies that I've had in New York, it would be New Haven. Sure, but it's like, how many places is it? There's like that one famous guy's place. What's his name? They always say you have to stop there. It was an Anthony Bourdain favorite, right? It was like an actual place.
00:45:33
Speaker
Yeah, there was Frank Peppies. And there's a few others, but so the story I'll tell, we're all very aware of the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina in 2005. And if you've ever been down to the lower ninth of that recovery work still remains undone. Yeah. I was in New Orleans after Katrina for volunteer work. And it's the only time I've ever seen New Orleans
00:46:00
Speaker
which makes me sad because it means I haven't really seen New Orleans, right? So yeah, truly devastating. Sorry, you were saying that. No, but so West Haven, Connecticut is the same way. There's at least when I was there in 2016, nearly five years after the impact of Hurricane Sandy, that recovery just same thing. There are talks about how from the rudimentary tagging
00:46:28
Speaker
used to mark houses and how many people used to live there, how much demolition work had been done so far, how badly they'd been looted, that those sketches and artist renderings were what informed some of the art in a lot of the AAA prestige, dystopian universe games of the present day, looking at you, The Last of Us.
00:46:53
Speaker
But there's no, to your point, talking about like the Lower Ninth, talking about West Haven, there are these communities that they might not even have less of a tax base, but because some of the basic resources needed to make them livable, like grocery stores, public transit, clean water in some cases, career services and after school programs for children, there's just been no recovery.
00:47:21
Speaker
And entire neighborhoods, at least when I was there in 2021, are still gone. A lot of the failures of our federal government, in many cases, that can't recover from real states of crisis.
00:47:35
Speaker
Yeah, had an uncle who worked from FEMA and was stationed in Puerto Rico for a number of years. And I mean, it's the same. Like that, that stupid, just utterly disgraceful picture of President Orange tossing paper towel rolls is just barely.
00:47:54
Speaker
a caricature of the way that places like that are treated on the regular because FEMA does not have the funding to have the infrastructure to distribute the funding that it actually has access to. Yeah. To our knowledge. Fair. To our knowledge. Fair. At least I'll say those are the stories anecdotally that I've experienced.
00:48:17
Speaker
This is a podcast that's supposed to be positive and informing and insightful. It's good in the title. Let's get some good in here. We joke about it. These things are uncomfortable, but that's a part of our stories too, right?
Collective Trauma and Local Solutions
00:48:29
Speaker
Of course. It's a part of dealing with the quiet discomfort. I think that so many of us might have just sort of discarded in favor of Netflix or the holistic wellness industry or Espresso Martini.
00:48:47
Speaker
During some of the harder lockdowns, I think one of the things that we're seeing now is there are now, well, what do we do about this? Do we identify the collective trauma, the collective compound trauma that we've all continued to have inflicted upon us, which may or may not have been exacerbated by any number of factors, be they municipal, statewide, or federal, or international for that matter.
00:49:17
Speaker
How do we as humans live with that? Move on or not from that, I guess. I wish I have an answer. I don't know. What's your answer? I mean, this is going to be like a pretty like kind of Buddhist answer, I guess. I'm not a Buddhist, but you know, the the question of what do we do, right? It's it's quantum, right? It's like that also question of like, what did we do before? Right. And
00:49:44
Speaker
The very reality is that disaster, yeah, just disaster in human nature, it's been there our entire lives, whether we knew it or not, right?
00:49:57
Speaker
And now we feel much more of a collective burden of responsibility because we just know it more, right? Like there's, you know, it's, it's a known thing that so many people studying psychology and sociology and all kinds of humanities, you know, like they talk about the fact that we were not meant to consume like tragedy and information at the scale and level and speed at which we do right now.
00:50:26
Speaker
that, you know, like it's literally like you wake up in the morning and if you look at your phone, you could have like 15 notifications just that you can see, you know, initially about all the shit that happened while you were sleeping, right? Like all over the world. And so, you know, again, this is like my kind of Buddhist answer is like, first, just accept, accept that the world is what it is, right? Mentally, accept the present given.
00:50:54
Speaker
Because I think the moment that you start with like, why and why, why, why and now what and what's next is like, you know, where you're, you're kind of doing yourself a disservice. This is speaking as like a person who like really doesn't experience getting dysregulated well. And this is not talking about like privilege of like, Oh, I just don't want to know. It just means that if you are in the know, you know, just accept that you cannot answer to everything. Yes. Right. So, you know, again, and then like, I want to move to like,
00:51:24
Speaker
the very like late 80s, early 90s kind of thing of like, you know, think global act local, right? So I really encourage folks to, you know, find how these things tie back to you, be involved in your locality, be involved in your local organizing and policymaking, bring the issues closer to you instead of like just despairing so much, you know?
00:51:53
Speaker
Because something that's happening in Michigan, you know, for clean water or the subject of water, potability of water for like however many years, there's a real through line to the state you live in. You know, there's just going to be, even if it's not the same demographic. And I think people really are only just now understanding that and feeling like they can have access to something. You know, like here in New York, here, I live in Manhattan now, but in the borough of Brooklyn, right? Which is the biggest borough in New York.
00:52:22
Speaker
thousands and thousands of county committee seats that go empty every year because people don't know that they can just be on county committee. And then those seats get populated by like crooked ass assembly people who then take that legislation to Albany. You know what I mean? Like that's just one example is what I'm talking about is like, there is a place that you can be impacting a beautiful change. And if that means for you, it's like keeping your yard clean, like that's fine.
00:52:52
Speaker
And so, yeah, I want people to accept but not be defeated by the largeness of everything and really just be aware of what is in your capacity right there. And I think through that kind of practice, you do find yourself in positions where you can make a larger impact. Sounds like I'm running for counsel or something. But you know what I'm saying, yeah.
00:53:18
Speaker
I mean, you have my vote. Why is that so hard though? The experience of so-called think globally, at locally, if that's possible, why is that so hard? It seems so simple. Yeah, I think people underestimate themselves at the same time that they're contending with like our culture. Like this culture that we talked about earlier of like quickly digestible, quick, quick, quick, fast impact, donate now, click the link now.
00:53:48
Speaker
you know, read the article, it only takes four minutes and 27 seconds or whatever, you know, like, I think people get overwhelmed, and they feel like I'm already left behind, you know, or they feel a sense of, yeah, of defeat. And again, I think also people don't naturally associate these kinds of acts as relationship, right? They don't see that, you know, in it, it's, it's relationship centered.
00:54:11
Speaker
community comes out of relationships. And so maybe there are folks who they don't feel connected to a community yet, or they haven't had the opportunity, or they're waiting, you know, to be found or reached out to. Yeah, it just like you can take a moment just as quickly as you know, being turned on to like a new
00:54:29
Speaker
product that's being, you know, shipped at you or, yeah, people are selfish. That's also our nature, right? Like it's hard enough to contend with your own individual life, you know, but then the idea of being asked to make so much space for other people's lives, you know, that's the battle of humanity since the beginning. What is the, where is the balance between my relationship to self and what I owe myself?
00:54:58
Speaker
the same thing for the other, the close circle of the other, the philosophical, the philosophical concept of humanity. And then, and then the actual planet we live in. Yay. Hooray. One of my favorite British comedians, um, Bob Mortimer on his response to this. I don't fucking know. Yeah. Also the outstanding sort of motto of
00:55:21
Speaker
Gen Z, right? Like, yeah, I don't know, man. Gen Z, please come listen to my podcast. Anyway, I want to pivot a little bit.
Entrepreneurial Curiosity in Art
00:55:28
Speaker
One of the things, the more time that I spent Googling you looking over your your body of work. This is killing me. It's so funny because it's like,
00:55:37
Speaker
I know it's out there, right? Like, we just know that about ourselves, that information just gets out there. But sometimes I'm just like, I can't believe how much is out there, you know? It's a lot. Google doesn't yet own my soul, but I feel like we're getting closer and closer to, like, the Black Mirror dystopian, like, Juniper Corporation at some point, you know what I mean? Get back in the writer's room, Charlie Brooker, we need more episodes of the Black Mirror, because everything has come true already. Please, Charlie Brooker, we need more, like, prescient
00:56:05
Speaker
prophecy. We need to know what to watch out for. Anyway, so as I was doing a little bit of work to be ready, I was looking over your performances, your production companies, your work with the Lincoln Center for the performing arts.
00:56:23
Speaker
and others. And across all of these things, I would say that there feels a spirit of entrepreneurial curiosity, because what I discover is you're not just creating art and you're not just, you're not just producing art, but you're finding ways to both produce your own and then enable others to produce theirs. And I wonder if you can tell me, am I onto something with your work? If so, where does that drive come from?
00:56:52
Speaker
Yeah, not to be reductive and not give myself the credit or whatever, which I want to do. I do think that... Hey, you must be Korean. To any really well-adjusted Koreans out there who might hear this, we're so proud of you. We're really proud of you and thank you for being good models. Absolutely. You keep being you. You keep being you. Yeah, no, I think that, honestly, something that I'm proud to be
00:57:19
Speaker
You know, you can point to like my Virgo son. You can point to like any like thing about me. It probably like, I probably agree with you. So I have quite an opinion. I have really an opinion on so much. And I think I'm pretty like vehement about some of my snobbery. I just think I have good taste. Like I'll just say it like that. I think I have impeccable taste. I think I have, I have an intuition for what provokes people.
00:57:46
Speaker
What makes people like an extra second? What makes people stretch beyond themselves? I think that this is exciting, you know, about people, you know, period. And I really live for the moment of seeing someone cross through a veil, you know what I mean? Like, I've always been that person that's like, you got to watch this, you got to read this, you got to take a second and see this thing, you know, because I'm so confident at the impact it may have, you know? And so,
00:58:15
Speaker
When I am producing, I feel like I've left some of this behind, which I'm glad, but now when I'm producing something, it's because I am so in love with it.
00:58:32
Speaker
You know, and I want other people to be in love with it too. I guess that does make me like a good, you know, like a politician in a sense, right? Like, I think I am a good politician about like what I love. And, you know, when I was a kid, I always found these certain, certain things fascinating, like,
00:58:48
Speaker
you know, the idea of a diplomat, the idea of a missionary, the idea of a cult, a cult leadership, right? Like, this kind of stuff was really fascinating to me, because why wouldn't it be, you know, that you could, you could sway a thought that you could sway a spirit, that you could redefine and experience
00:59:07
Speaker
for someone, right? Like, like drag is like this for me, right? Like drag has this incredible power to recontextualize a song, you know, a drag performer can just take a song and make it something you never even thought it was in your life before. Anyway, what I mean is like, if I'm producing something or making space for someone to produce their own work, it's because I'm endorsing it.
00:59:28
Speaker
It's because it's something that I myself would have done. Had I had that person's acumen or resources or time or whatever, it means I looked at something and I saw myself there. And that I saw a moment where people could come together and become a community around a moment. Yeah.
00:59:47
Speaker
Again, very romantic, right? Like, I'm really into the romance of the sway, of the cell, really, right? Yeah. Which is why immediately we talked about, you know, whether you knew these things about me beforehand or not, I promise you, we would have talked about opera and the Yankees tonight, you know, because like, that's, you know, on my crest, right? And they're related. The things that I love all are related and have the same power, I think. What else is on your crest?
01:00:16
Speaker
This is so ridiculous to say. I think beauty, you know, I think the idea of beauty, and what I mean by that is like the uncanniness of beauty. So many things that I get excited about or really hold my attention or grab me or that I'm like talking about is like something uncanny, right? Something that, you know, against all odds shouldn't exist or is producing this effect that you would never ever, you know, anticipate this
01:00:42
Speaker
you know, beauty is a big one. Another one is, I mean, these are all words for the same thing, really, right? Like I was thinking like poetry is one. Yeah, same, same thing. Music, same thing. Yeah. And then there's like all these little things that I've loved since I was a kid that are just like, again, under the same umbrella, like, like how, like just the sheer beauty of certain things.
01:01:05
Speaker
Like, you know, as a kid, I was really obsessed with like pearlescent soap. I was obsessed with pearlescent, reflective, you know, like iridescent, something that contains so much and can change like second to second. And, you know, this stuff shows up in random things when you're a kid, you know, it shows up in like, yeah, cleaning products or a soap bubble or the way something's animated in your cartoon, like these kinds of things, like just something that I think I just noticed things.
01:01:32
Speaker
So, paying attention, that's on my crust, I think. Finding a small thing, noticing a small thing, and not elevating it, but creating a bigger space around it. Thank you. I mean, nothing else to say but thank you. There's an old media studies philosopher, Boris comes through and perhaps far too much his essay on the grain of the voice gets quoted and that comes to mind particularly now as
01:02:01
Speaker
social media becomes increasingly post-human, I guess. We talk about whatever it is that makes, I feel he talks about how artistic expression connects back to whatever codes it as being distinctively human, usually is what codes it as authentic as opposed to front.
01:02:20
Speaker
And I think what you've just described is the capacity to have a human experience any moment and anything could potentially be that. Yeah, I'm interested in raising the stakes on meaning. I remember as a kid, the first time that I ever got a camera, like a film camera, and you could buy black and white film, right?
01:02:49
Speaker
I mean, you can just do that. You've always been able to do that. But as a kid, like, you know, my experience was not seeing black and white photography or sepia photography, right? Like for most kids, I think in America, like in our generation, right? It's color photography. And then, yeah, the first time I discovered black and white film, like I was so enthralled.
01:03:09
Speaker
right? And I was like, this is incredible. Like, why did why did anyone ever want color, you know, like, and I would just spend so much of the little money I had buying black and white film, because everything that came out of the film felt like more dramatic, you know, just more dramatic. Yeah, like, you know, and, and like, I would just like pour over photos of my friends and think like, Oh,
01:03:36
Speaker
It just looked like a different type of person. And the meaning of that moment is just completely something else. And you can't really say it's a nostalgia that's calling back to something that I knew or anything like that. But you know what I'm saying? I'm interested in just one difference, creating just a higher stakes meaning, something that just wasn't there before. Yeah.
01:04:00
Speaker
something that just wasn't there before. We are just about at the end of our time, so we have one question left, and it's the same question that we ask everybody as we're closing out our time together, and that is, what do you want the world to look like when you're done with it?
01:04:16
Speaker
I want the world to be less responsible to its colonized history. I want it to be less white, you know, I want it to look like just more abundant, you know, and more connected.
01:04:32
Speaker
Like I want people to feel less alone and I want people to feel like what they love could be loved by everybody. Yeah, I want world peace, you know, but really I do. I really want people to just feel generally more hopeful and connected and peaceful and less alone and excited about beauty. Those are not bad things to want. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for our chat today. This was just delightful.
01:05:02
Speaker
Thank you, Polly. It was delightful for me too. My thanks to Siobhan Sung. You can learn more about her affiliations and her work at the links in the episode description. Thank you so much for tuning in to Uncommon Good with Polly Reese. This program is produced in southwest Philadelphia in the unceded neighborhood of the Black Bottom community and on the ancestral land of the Lenape Nation.
01:05:25
Speaker
who remain here in the era of the Fourth Crow and fight for official recognition by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to this day. You can find out more about the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania and how you can support the revitalization of their culture by going to lenape-nation.org. Our associate producers are Willa Jaffe and Kia Watkins. If you enjoyed listening to the show,
01:05:47
Speaker
Please support the show by leaving us a five-star review and a comment and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help people find us. Uncommon Good is also available on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram at uncommongoodpod. Follow us there for closed caption video content and more goodies. We love questions and feedback. You can send us a DEM on social media or an email at uncommongoodpod at gmail.com.
01:06:12
Speaker
Thank you for listening. Until next time, wishing you every uncommon good to do your uncommon good to be the uncommon good.