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Dr. Sandra Montes: Welcome Everyone, Everywhere, Always
83 Plays2 years ago
How do we become better at welcoming the stranger as individuals? As churches? As universities?
Dr. Sandra Montes is digging deeper into the unexamined bits of Christian spirituality to find the common ground across faith traditions.
Sandra is the Dean of Chapel at the Union Theological Seminary in New York and author of the book Becoming REAL: and Thriving in Ministry.
Content warning: explicit language, Christian supremacy, white supremacy, self-image, toxic masculinity
Feminism, philosophy of beauty and self-image, finding commonality across traditions of spirituality and faith, and the work of divinity schools and seminaries in shaping spiritual thinkers and ministers.
You can find out more about Sandra’s work and Buy Sandra’s Book: https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Real-Thriving-Sandra-Montes/dp/1640652485
Follow Sandra on Instagram www.instagram.com/sandratmontes
Check us out on Instagram and TikTok: @uncommongoodpod
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: youtube.com/@uncommongoodpod
we chat to ordinary people doing uncommon good in service of our common humanity.
We are creating community that builds relationships across difference by inviting dialogue about the squishy and vulnerable bits of life.
thanks for joining us on the journey of (un)common good!
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Transcript
Creating Inclusive Religious Spaces
00:00:00
Speaker
whether you are not a follower of Jesus, whether you are not, you know, this, that, or the other. It doesn't matter. I want you to be able to just
00:00:12
Speaker
feel like you belong, like you're welcome, like you're, you know, somebody's excited to have you wherever we're at. How do I keep growing to be able to share that with people to say, this is a safe space? Even if we mentioned Jesus, even if we mentioned Buddha, even if we mentioned nothing, it's a safe space. And how can we all inhabit it together?
Introducing Dr. Sandra Montes
00:00:44
Speaker
It's Uncommon Good, the podcast where we chat to ordinary people doing uncommon good in service of our common humanity. My name is Paulie Rees. Fam, I am delighted to bring to you today Dr. Sandra Montes.
00:01:00
Speaker
If you don't know her, you should. She is the Dean of Chapel at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City and the author of the book Becoming Real and Thriving in Ministry. Quick content warning off the top.
00:01:16
Speaker
There is some explicit language in this episode. We do dig into Christian supremacy and white supremacy, self-image, and toxic masculinity.
Spirituality and Community through Crochet
00:01:27
Speaker
So if these are things that are not right for you to listen to, feel free, switch this one off and we will catch you in the next one.
00:01:33
Speaker
We go on to talk about feminism, her philosophy of beauty and self-image, finding community across traditions of spirituality and faith, and the work of divinity schools and seminaries in shaping spiritual thinkers.
00:01:54
Speaker
Sandra is a brilliantly accomplished musician and a parent and a teacher. I was so lucky to get to sit down with her and chat about so many things. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Sandra.
00:02:12
Speaker
I cannot wait, if you could hold it up to camera, but I can't wait to contribute to the crochet circle. I know, me too. Tell me the story about it. So I decided that I wanted to be with my family for my birthday, right? Of course, as usual. And so I decided I'm going to be gone.
00:02:31
Speaker
but I want to do a chapel, you know, a service. So I did one and it was called Madre Femme Spirituality because I saw God as my mother. Like I saw my mother as God when I first, you know, I was a kid. So I've always thought of God as female. And then I see Jesus as Femme. So, so anyway, so then, you know, I was like, how can I bring
00:02:57
Speaker
my indigenous spirituality, my family back to union. And then I said, Ellis, would you just crochet or knit something? Your son, Ellis. Yeah, my son, Ellis. And then we can just continue on.
00:03:13
Speaker
And so he just started doing this. So during the whole service, he was, you know, crocheting it. And so I'm really excited that the needles haven't come in yet. So we haven't because we had another service for, you know, like of knitting and crocheting, etc. But we hadn't gotten the needles yet. So I'm looking forward to getting those so people can start adding to
Disability Justice in Faith Settings
00:03:38
Speaker
it.
00:03:38
Speaker
Well, I am, I'm a YDS grad and thank you Yale, I'll see you tomorrow. But I definitely wish that we would have had a knitting and crocheting chapel because that sounds amazing. I know, I know, I do too. I like, you know, one of the things though, I was talking to the student. Yeah.
00:03:58
Speaker
And, you know, she was telling me how she crochets and she knits. And that's one of those things that helps her keep focused. And so I said, you know, what's funny is that I, what helps me is being on my phone. You know, on my phone, I can be like, you know, playing either playing a game that I don't have to think about or doodle or whatever.
00:04:18
Speaker
But that is seen as negative. However, if you're crocheting abuse, if you look at people in meetings, if they're crocheting or knitting, nobody tells them anything. They're like, OK, you know, but if you're on your phone, it's like you're not here, you're not focused. And it's like the same thing, except we're doing different, you know, we're still doing something different. You know, I don't know. So so anyway, so I was thinking about that and I thought, you know,
00:04:43
Speaker
That is one way of being able to keep focused and yet at the same time using your hands to do something else. Yeah, no, I 100% remember exactly that. No, I remember people with the yarn crafts and I felt so jealous and silly me, it's like, well, why don't you just start yourself? Right, right. And so I've started before, but
00:05:11
Speaker
I haven't really continued. It's not one of those things that I normal or naturally do. Ellis, my son, does everything. Yeah. There's a point that I was thinking about. We just had lunch with your trample team and they were lovely people. One of the topics of conversation that came up was disability justice in religious spaces.
Challenges of Inclusivity in Christianity
00:05:33
Speaker
And this certainly seems to me, at least certainly for me now that I am properly disabled, feels like a point of accommodation because there needs to be something to help with the fidget or what have you.
00:05:49
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I see so much of this sort of, and I might be putting the card before the horse, but I see a common thread in your work with the Episcopal Church, now with Union, the writing that you've done, and we can pick whichever one that you want to talk about first, because there's so much to talk about. But I see this common thread of making, and specifically for you, since you are a Christian, an Ephesopalian, making Christianity, making Jesus accessible to everyone.
00:06:16
Speaker
And I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about why that feels or I think that that's probably very important to you. I think that's probably fair to say. Yeah. So I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about why that is as important as it is.
00:06:33
Speaker
That's so interesting that you asked that because I love Jesus. I mean, I love Jesus. As a matter of fact, I think two summers ago, I decided I'm done. I'm done with Jesus. I'm done with the Episcopal Church. I can't with anymore. This is just...
00:06:50
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you know, so painful because, you know, I criticize the church a lot. I feel it's, you know, especially our denomination is so wide. It's so it's like it doesn't want to grow. Like she just wants to stay the same with the people that are in it. Just don't want to change. Don't want to go outside of the walls, right? To reach people, not for the Episcopal Church, but for Jesus, right? For God to know how much they are loved. I feel like our denomination is incredible. But anyway,
00:07:20
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Yeah, there's this one
Personal Faith Journeys with Jesus
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crystallizing moment back in the 1960s where everybody just decided, we're good. Let's just keep it this way the entire time. Exactly. And then that's how it's been, right? Yeah. And so anyway, so I had already decided that and then I heard presenting Bishop Curry preach. Michael Curry, Bishop Michael Curry, Royal Wedding, Michael Curry. So all of a sudden I'm like, I can't leave the church. I love the church.
00:07:46
Speaker
And then I remember again, you know, like during almost near Holy Week, you know, thinking, all right, so this year, let me not, you know, because I love Easter. Easter for me is like the reason for my seasons. I mean, I love Easter.
00:08:03
Speaker
And so I decided, no, you know, I let me just, you know, I'm angry at God. I'm angry at Jesus. Let me just leave it alone. And then I remember I drove by this like stations of the cross for immigrants.
00:08:19
Speaker
And I was like, I love you, Jesus. I love you so much. So anyway, so it was one of those things. So anyway, so I love Jesus. I love the fact that I can get mad at Jesus. I love the fact that I, you know, I think, and I will, I know that Jesus is alive. I know that Jesus is a lay person. I know that Jesus is queer. I know that Jesus is everything, right? So for me, Jesus is just.
00:08:44
Speaker
accessible to me. And my parents did that to me. So I remember one of the stories that my mom loves to tell me or love to tell me was, you know, she remembers when I, you know, because we would always pray before going to bed. And she said that all of a sudden, one time we were praying and I was laughing. I was just laughing, laughing, laughing. And she's like, Mamita, you know what, you know, what are you doing? She's like, well, I'm just laughing with God.
00:09:04
Speaker
And so that is exactly me. I sit here and I could be praying. It's just one of those things that I just love Jesus and I feel.
00:09:16
Speaker
One of the best things that I have is Jesus So I want to give you Jesus and and the thing is like I know what it's like to be othered I know what it's like to be looked down upon to to be seen as oh you're not gonna do anything, you know, you're brown you're fat you're this you're that and it's
00:09:38
Speaker
And for me, it's like, but Jesus loves me. But Jesus wants me. Jesus calls
Teaching vs Ministry: Finding Belonging
00:09:43
Speaker
me. Jesus thinks I'm amazing. I'm Jesus' favorite child. And so are you, et cetera, et cetera. But for me, it's like, I want all of us to know that. And now, throughout the years, I have also, I don't believe that
00:10:01
Speaker
Is this gonna sound it's it's it's something that it's like a I don't know a thing inside me I don't think you need Jesus to to get to God or to get to heaven or to that special place However, I feel for me. I love following Jesus. I love having Jesus in my life and you know, that's my way to get to
00:10:28
Speaker
Whatever it is that happens in eternity, if there is an eternity. I also struggle with that. For me, that's what's important. I want it easier than it was for me.
00:10:47
Speaker
I mean, I remember in the evangelical church and I grew up evangelical. I remember I've always written music. I love to sing. And I remember that I was not allowed to sing my own songs when I was in the evangelical church. When I was like growing up, other people, men had to sing them.
00:11:04
Speaker
So for me, I don't want that to be like that for you. You know what I mean? Like for whatever reason, whether you are not a follower of Jesus, whether you are not, you know, this, that or the other, it doesn't matter. I want you to be able to just
00:11:22
Speaker
feel like you belong, like you're welcome, like you're, you know, somebody's excited to have you wherever we're at. And for me, you know, that mainly is, you know, in church spaces or in faith spaces, because that's just my life. You know, I remember thinking, you know, when I was teaching, I taught for about 21 years and, you know, elementary school, pre-K to sixth grade,
00:11:48
Speaker
And that was my career. That was my job. I did it very well. I was excellent. I loved the kids when I was there, but that was my job. My ministry is what I did and what I do in church, singing, mentoring people, et cetera. That is my ministry. So some teachers, their ministry is being a teacher, right?
00:12:17
Speaker
especially like pre-K and kindergarten teachers, I think they're like amazing. But for me it wasn't. So for me, it was really important for me to also understand that my ministry is something
Influences of Conservative Upbringing
00:12:29
Speaker
else. So my job is one thing and my ministry is another.
00:12:32
Speaker
And so, but at the same time, my ministry would go in to my teaching, you know, during the, like when I would see kids that did not fit in for whatever reason, you know, for me, the ministry was
00:12:50
Speaker
helping them find their voice or helping them find their whatever it is that they needed so that they could feel like they did belong like they were welcome like it didn't matter that they're fat and can't run like I couldn't when I was a kid you know what I mean you can still be physically active and enjoy it like you can do other things you can dance you can you know what I mean like it you don't have to run a freaking mile around
00:13:15
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like you can actually dance for a mile, you know worth of steps I mean, it's so so anyway, so just those things, you know, it's and that was my ministry, you know, and I feel like that's still my ministry where I just want people to like I want it to be easy for you to get to For me is Jesus, you know or God or whatever you want to call it that divine spirit creator of
00:13:44
Speaker
Whatever. I want it to be easy for all of us to get to so There are a couple pieces that I want to tease out and and dig into a little bit more that you said that I think are at least Uncommon if not necessarily even a little bit into the waters of unconventional the piece about
00:14:09
Speaker
Whatever it is, whatever name you use for it, but the, the thing that we're all the thing, person, energy entity, whatever language we use to be able to identify what I think is the.
00:14:28
Speaker
the divine, the thing that we don't do a good job describing in words, because there are none, the piece of that, whatever that is, and the notion that a person can be a follower of the teachings of Jesus, participate in Christian community, churches,
00:14:56
Speaker
theological institutions of higher learning where we sit today. Thank you, Theological Seminary. Thank you, President Serene Jones. Thank you, Dean Kelly. Thank you so much for the space and for bringing to Brown and Golden people into it. But all of those things together, but also I know Christianity to be a pretty exclusive person.
00:15:25
Speaker
You know, like there's a lot of language in the space of Christianity that says there is one way, there is only one way. And other ways are not only not true, but they're wrong and they lead literally to annihilation. Right. Right. Yeah. So it feels very uncommon. It feels very, yes, unconventional to be able to say. If.
00:15:53
Speaker
There is the possibility for us to all be seeking that same divine presence, that same unanswerable question, that same profound whatever it's called, even if we just don't have the same language for it and that that thing is still the same.
00:16:21
Speaker
So I would love to hear, after 15 minutes of preamble, I would love to hear where the energy to be able to allow that freedom comes from. Yeah, you know, I have thought about that. I have thought about, because sometimes I don't understand it either. You know, I'm like, why, you know, why does, because I feel a lot of times I don't have that, like, no, it's this way. And that's the only way now.
00:16:47
Speaker
I have that about some things, but for some reason, I feel like my parents did that to me. My parents, again, I grew up evangelical.
Shared Spaces for Diverse Faiths
00:16:57
Speaker
I grew up, what's it called, Republican. I grew up, when we got to the United States, of course that didn't happen in Peru or Guatemala.
00:17:09
Speaker
But, you know, it's I grew up in that kind of, you know, upbringing, you know, church, et cetera. And my parents were so open about everything, not about sex. Let me talk to the camera, not about sex. Like that was, you know, you were supposed to not have sex until you got married. I mean, that has definitely I mean, yeah, I follow that. So I've been married 158 times. No, I'm kidding.
00:17:32
Speaker
but I mean more or less no but they were just open about everything like
00:17:48
Speaker
You know, I hear horror stories about, you know, PKs, right? And pastor's kids. And, you know, my mom would leave breakfast for us and just tell us, you know, let us sleep through, you know, Sunday morning. You know, just things like that that were just like, not always. I mean, a lot of times, you know, when we were growing up and we were musicians, et cetera, I mean, we had to help the family. You know, I mean, so there were those times, too.
00:18:14
Speaker
He sure as fuck better not miss Christmas or Easter. Right. Or through King's Day. Or exactly. Or different things. But it was just this open-mindedness about things. Again, in the conservative evangelical Christian
00:18:33
Speaker
realm, they're so open-minded. So one of the things that I have always known is that you can be quote unquote progressive and liberal and be very close-minded. And you can be incredibly conservative and be amazingly open-minded.
00:18:56
Speaker
So I've seen that my whole life with my parents. And so for me, it's always been like, you know, I mean, you know, they, my mom will tell you, I believe the word of God as it's written, but would never tell you, no, you have to marry this person or you are going to hell if you're like, they would, you know, my mom would never, ever say that to you, nor would she believe it.
00:19:20
Speaker
However, she will tell you she believes the word of God. You know what I mean? So it's like, so for me, I've seen that my whole life and even in my feminism or my femme, you know, body, et cetera, what I always found very interesting. My family, my mom is super, super like the mom, the Latina.
00:19:39
Speaker
you know serves my dad you know will serve him you know his food his little snacks takes care of him wash i mean does everything right i mean i that's what i'm used to like i'm never that mom but that's my mom and and yet i was never expected to be that woman which i find
00:20:01
Speaker
I was never asked to serve my brother or my dad. I was never asked to be in the kitchen. I was eating with the men and with the elders, even when I was a little girl. Those are the things that boggles my mind. I've asked my parents, why did you raise me like that?
00:20:23
Speaker
you know, why would you in these, like in Peru and Guatemala where it's super, super, you know, machismo and all that stuff. So, and they were just like, because we love you and, you know, we wanted you to be you. So for me, I think it's that that's where it comes from, where I want people to feel that freedom. And again, it hasn't always been like that. I mean, you know, my parents made mistakes. I've made mistakes. But it's that,
00:20:50
Speaker
that openness and seeing my parents grow throughout my life. I remember when I was young and a man marries a woman, that's it. And when Ellis came out to my dad, that opens up my dad to other possibilities to the point where a couple of years ago, I went home and I was like, I just want y'all to know that I'm pansexual and poly.
00:21:18
Speaker
If I come home with male, female, you know, non-binary, whatever, y'all are just going to love them and be okay with me bringing another person home the next day. Like, you know, and so my dad's like just eating, you know, nicely and have my mom's like, of course, I already love them.
00:21:35
Speaker
You know what I mean? And my dad, I'm sure, he's like, why do we have to talk about sex? But for me, that's important, right? So it's important for me to be able to say that. And then my dad's like, you know, I can't wait to have my first same sex or same gender or non-binary or whatever marriage. I can't wait to do that. You know what I mean? So it's like, I've seen that. So when people are like, oh, you can't really grow or this is how I believe, that's all bullshit.
00:22:04
Speaker
So I guess I'm trying to even think about how it is with myself, but that's very important to me. And being at Union has made it even more so. Because at Union, we have people from all walks of life, from all different faith traditions, et cetera, and beliefs.
00:22:27
Speaker
And how do I welcome everyone and how do we all feel like we belong in the same space? And it has been difficult, you know, and I mess up all the time. But it's, you know, how do I keep growing to be able to share that with people to say this is the same space, even if we mentioned Jesus, even if we mentioned Buddha, even if we mentioned nothing, it's a same space. And how
Understanding Love and Vulnerability
00:22:54
Speaker
can we all inhabit it together knowing, like you were saying,
00:22:57
Speaker
And like, I really do believe we're all going to end in the same place, you know? And with this, like, I love when you were talking about energy, you know, earlier too. It's like, because I feel like that's probably what it is, what it feels like. It's just this beautiful, you know, for me, it would be like blue, all these blues, you know, there, like all these shades of blue and, you know, just this energy enveloping me just to feel loved, you know, and accept it exactly how naked
00:23:27
Speaker
you know, where I could just go naked and I would not feel embarrassed. Well, I suppose that sort of begs the question, what are we afraid of? What are we afraid of? Like, if that's what the definition of love is and being able to bring that level, that level of vulnerability, that amount of oneself to the table, what are we afraid of? Why are we afraid of that? Why are we actively
00:23:59
Speaker
pushing back against that if, big if, big if, if that is what we are made for, the experience of being loved fully and giving love fully.
Challenging Beauty Standards in Religion
00:24:15
Speaker
You know that thing, Paulie, too? Those of us who believe in the Bible, read or read the Bible, I mean, come on. There's so much crap in there, too, that's like, you have to be beautiful to be loved. They fell in love with you. Awful. Awful.
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, just, you know what I mean? So for me, that also, I think we're so afraid of rejection, you know? I mean, it's, you know, I see, I hear, especially younger people, how they feel ugly. And I'm like, you're so beautiful. Like, how can you feel ugly? You know what I mean? And it's society has done that, parents have done that, family members, you know, people, just whatever.
00:25:02
Speaker
How? When did we decide as a people to... And I've done it too. I mean, I've done it. To say, you're not good enough and you are good enough. Like, when?
00:25:17
Speaker
Because I feel we all do it and then we do it to ourselves too. I am diabetic. And so because I am diabetic or I'm fat and that's why I'm diabetic. And I'm so afraid. I was afraid at one point, like if I told people I was diabetic, there would be of course you are because you're fat.
00:25:38
Speaker
or you know or that whole thing like I cannot share sometimes I feel like well if I share what I'm eating it's like well of course you're eating that because you're fat you know what I mean things like that that it's like I tell myself
00:25:53
Speaker
instead of just enjoying my life, just enjoying it. And I hear that from people. In this case, when we're talking about fat people or fatness or fat phobia, I've actually heard people, I don't take pictures because I don't like looking at myself, I look fat. And yet I remember three different stories where they didn't take pictures with a loved one who then died.
00:26:22
Speaker
And so they have no pictures because they were fat and they felt, you know, people are going to look at me and different, and it's like, why? Like, how did that happen? You know? And so I feel like that happens with us in all senses, not just about body image, but about, you know, I,
00:26:49
Speaker
you know, I have saggy breasts. So, you know, if I'm with a man or a woman, are they going to like that? Or I have, you know, stinky feet or whatever, you know, whatever. Like why? I don't know why we focus on these things that truly don't matter. And I think that it happens a lot in religious places, in faith places where
00:27:17
Speaker
we constantly just look at the negative instead of the positive or the things that we have in common. And I think for me being raised male, being raised with the notion that it's not okay to be beautiful, that you're not supposed to be beautiful, that's not something that's manly, and you're not supposed to seek out.
00:27:42
Speaker
The brand of toxic masculinity that I grew up with was you don't have time to think about beauty, you don't have time to expand that a little bit more to think about the self and the value of the self when you have so many things to worry about, like being tough enough or figuring out how to provide for the family.
00:28:06
Speaker
shove all that down deep and sort of set it aside so that you can focus on what really matters, which I suppose is finding one's place in the system so the system can figure out where you belong or don't.
00:28:24
Speaker
And yet Christianity is all about looks. It's all, you know what I mean? Like the Bible, again, let's go back to the Bible. We love our vestments in our church. Well, that, see, that's all drag. I'm sorry, but that's all drag in the Episcopal Church. We all know that. I mean, it's like the longer, the showier, the bigger, the hatter.
00:28:41
Speaker
I mean, it's like, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, I mean, I would be, if I were a drag queen, I'd be so excited to be able to use those vestments. I mean, it's, you know, but what I'm, you know, in the Bible, like when it talks about Daniel, when it talks about David, when it talks about, you know, then these women, you know, Esther, it talks about their beauty. So please do not even try to tell me that it's not important.
00:29:08
Speaker
If it's actually important in the Bible, and that's why we know when it says God does not look at your outer, but your inside. I feel that's
Purity Culture and Liberation
00:29:20
Speaker
so important. Yet then why do we have all of these examples of
00:29:24
Speaker
physical beauty, you know, I don't get it. Like, those are the things that kind of anger me about the Bible and or people or men who put their, you know, signatures on all those things. I mean, because I'm like, how is that important? You know, and why don't we talk more about men in these things? Why can't a woman have like a month, a bunch of concubinos? You know, I mean, what what happened there? But yeah, so for me, it's that, you know, it's like,
00:29:51
Speaker
Like you just said, why can't we just be like, you know, I have a little nine month old niece and, and although I think she's beautiful and gorgeous and just, you know, all these, you know, physical things. I also think she's super, super intelligent and just curious and good and, you know, happy and has an attitude and screams.
00:30:16
Speaker
All of those things that I hope that nobody takes away from her. I hope that our family can help her just be herself always, even when it's uncomfortable. Even when it makes me question, well, is she being a good girl? You know what I mean?
00:30:39
Speaker
I hope that we don't do that to her because that's what we, that's what's been done to us. You know, somewhere along the way, somebody said, what are you doing? You know, you can't have long hair. You know, like you're saying you can be beautiful. Why?
00:30:59
Speaker
By the way, I've always thought you were beautiful, just FYI, so. Oh, shucks. Oh, no. Oh, look, the camera just cut out for a minute. And you can't see how incredibly blushing I am right now.
00:31:14
Speaker
Wait, it didn't cut out? All of that was on camera? Got it, okay. Thank you. The Asian glow is in full effect right now. Right, love it. Beauty, spiritual beauty, but also redefining the concept of what physical beauty looks like.
00:31:41
Speaker
Now, can I just say something there? So for me, okay, one of the things like for me, I love beauty. What I find beautiful, right? And
00:31:53
Speaker
You know, as I get older sometimes, I feel like I have to kind of put breaks on sometimes because I'm forever. I'm telling people like, oh my gosh, I love your hair. Oh my God, I love your eyes. Oh my God, they're so blue or they're so brown or oh my gosh, you know, your arms are beautiful. I mean, I have been like that for a very long time and
00:32:17
Speaker
Now sometimes I feel like I don't want to put people off. I don't want to make people uncomfortable because all about consent, all about that. And so now I put breaks on it. Plus, I also noticed that when I'm with my Christian friends, they'll say shit like, is that really what you should be looking at? I'm like, why not?
00:32:42
Speaker
Like I think it's, you know, like when people dress a certain way, I think that's amazing. Like, you know what I mean? Like I, it's nice to my eyes. It's nice to be able to see it.
00:32:55
Speaker
How is that bad? And it's not necessarily like, oh my gosh, only this type of person. It's anything that I find attractive to me, or just attractive. Or when I can tell, for example, if you are wearing a certain thing that I can tell you're very happy with, my God,
00:33:21
Speaker
that looks beautiful on you or I love the way you carry that so well. You know, I don't see what is the big deal about giving people just that compliment or, you know, again, maybe sometimes it's like a little like, ooh, I love your arms or, you know, maybe not doing like that.
00:33:37
Speaker
But, but you know, but you want to, you want to pay a little bit more attention and see if like they're into it and then be like, and see if it can, see if it can lead to, you know, whatever. Like, yes. I mean, I just want everybody to know I'm single looking okay.
00:33:53
Speaker
I have a doctor hat now but you know well that doesn't always come back we'll come back to that later um because because like yes you have a doctor but that's that's important right because i think what you're getting at there and correct me if i'm wrong but i think you're getting at this notion of repression and that there are a lot of doctrines in christianity a lot of different ways of reading it so that's nice but also a lot of them pick and choose how much they want you to repress
00:34:22
Speaker
and how much that is a part of the doctrine. And one of these doctrines is this language of purity and all of the ways that purity has impacted us.
Authentic Living in Faith
00:34:34
Speaker
And what does it mean to be pure? There are conversations even about how the language of purity culture
00:34:42
Speaker
has its foundations in white supremacy as well, of course, like everything else that has been designed to repress us, am I right? So this is an important question about how much of Christian doctrine is about repression and how much of Christian doctrine is about liberation, right?
00:35:12
Speaker
So I don't even know if there's a question in there, but just this observation that the things that we think that we believe in, or we've been told are important to believe in, have this profound impact, not just on how we think, but how we behave as well. Right. Yeah, and aren't we the children of the resurrection, so therefore children of the light, children of liberation? To me, that's...
00:35:40
Speaker
That's what makes me want to follow Jesus. I want to follow Jesus because Jesus said, you know, it's like, you know, they think all of my followers are drunks and, you know, they don't wash their hands before they eat and they're this and that and the other. They cuss and say, yeah.
00:35:55
Speaker
And they're my followers and I love them, you know, and I want to be with them. I want to just hang out with them. I don't want you to throw rocks at people because you think that they're doing something bad when I think they're doing normal things like all of y'all. And, you know, so for me, it's that is that liberation. We we need to stop trying to. I can't. Why am I so worried about you?
00:36:22
Speaker
whatever it is that you do instead of being more not maybe not concerned I don't know what the word would be for you to find this love that I have found you know what I mean like when I go to this like amazing restaurant I'm gonna tell you all about it I'm not gonna care that you're
00:36:39
Speaker
super skinny, super fat, super tall, super short. I don't care about anything else except this is an amazing restaurant, let's go, or you need to go, or this is an amazing book, go get it, or this is... You know what I mean? I want you to find the same thing that I have found that makes me happy, that gives me hope.
00:36:58
Speaker
that helps me wake up in the morning, that helps me be able to, you know, even through my tears, know that there is hope somewhere, somehow, some, you know, way, someday, it will all be okay.
00:37:14
Speaker
I don't know how, but it will. And I want you to know that too. I want you to know it will be okay. It sucks right now. It's awful. It's shitty. It's everything. But we have that faith that it'll be okay. So for me, that's...
00:37:32
Speaker
I don't know. That's the liberation. That's the whole like, that's what I want us all to know, you know, that we don't have to be in shackles. I mean, isn't that what we say that Jesus came so that we can be free? Maybe there's the scary bit for some of us. Maybe we actually don't want to be free.
00:37:58
Speaker
But that's a question, right? Because liberation is hard. Doing the uncomfortable work of the self-examination of the squishy and vulnerable bits is profoundly uncomfortable. And I think, I suspect anyway, for some people who
00:38:28
Speaker
at least go to church on Sunday mornings, it's a much easier way to be to allow those things to go unexamined. And it's not just a church, but any other thing where there's this idea of liberation and hope and a better, more honest to self way of living.
00:38:53
Speaker
across all of the traditions that I could certainly imagine that have some sense of moral authority on
Role of Pastors and Tradition
00:39:00
Speaker
the earth, that it's easier to say, well, that sounds very, very great, but no, thank you, not for me.
00:39:13
Speaker
So I wonder, I wonder if part of the reckoning that we're talking about, about what Jesus actually says, what Jesus asks of us and asks of Christian community as a reckoning and perhaps an unnamed reckoning, but a reckoning nonetheless, do we actually believe in the teachings of Jesus or not?
00:39:43
Speaker
And is it okay if or not is the answer for my community or for me? I think that's what we're getting at. Is that fair? I think yes and maybe even no.
00:39:59
Speaker
Because, so one of the things that, you know, when I'm asked to talk to seminarians, right, especially in the Episcopal Church, one of the things that I will say is, all right, so you felt whatever, a calling, a vocation, whatever, to be a follower of Jesus and then to lead people to Jesus, right, in the Episcopal Church, in whatever denomination, but in a Christian tradition.
00:40:30
Speaker
So yes, let's ask all these questions. Yes, all this stuff. However, if I'm going to go to your church and you're a pastor and you're supposed to be leading me again, I walked in the church. I see it's a Christian church. And then all of a sudden you're out there saying, you know what? Like.
00:40:48
Speaker
If I were up there saying, everybody just go anywhere and everything's going to be okay, fine, except I'm here to teach you about Jesus, about how to follow this person as Christians, this Jesus, right?
00:41:05
Speaker
Again, if you're Buddhist, you're Buddhist. I feel like we're all going to the same place. However, if I'm going to a music school, I want to learn about music. If I'm going to an Episcopal church, I want to learn about Jesus. To any Christian church, I want to learn about Jesus.
00:41:24
Speaker
I feel like that is important. I always say, if you are not about Jesus, this may not be your track. This may not be the church for you. This may not be the space for you. And there's nothing wrong with that. For me, all of us can have a space anywhere.
00:41:48
Speaker
We have to believe that. And also, I think part of seminary would be, I need to see, you know what? This Jesus thing is just not for me. Now, maybe it's this Episcopal thing is not for me. It could be that. But I feel like if we are followers of Jesus, and then I'm going to be a pastor to pastor others to Jesus,
00:42:10
Speaker
I also need, even with my questionings, even with all that stuff, I need to also know I am following Jesus, the works of Jesus, all that stuff. You know what I mean? So for me, that's just the thing. I feel like those of us who are in the world, helping other people find love and be accepted is one thing. And it's another thing to be, I am a pastor, I'm a Christian pastor.
00:42:42
Speaker
my responsibility is, in my opinion, to be, to help you learn about Jesus, if I am a follower of Jesus. You know, just like when I'm a math teacher, you know, even though I'm gonna bring all of these other things for you to, you know, to help you learn, my responsibility is to teach you math.
00:43:00
Speaker
Right. So so that's anyway, that's how I see it. And again, you know, those are my little close minded, you know, little things that I have sometimes where it's like, you know, there's a vast, you know, there's vastness in this world and we can really do and be anything we want or we can and
00:43:24
Speaker
So yeah, like I tell my seminaries, I want the people that are being formed to then teach me as a Christian to be followers of Jesus also. Because if I go into a Christian church, that's what I'm hoping to get. I'm not hoping to get more knowledge about something else, otherwise that's where I would go. But again, that's my little,
00:43:55
Speaker
You know, that's where my open-mindedness, I guess, maybe comes into a little, I don't know.
Hopes for a Positive Impact
00:44:00
Speaker
To be able to be open-minded requires a level of self-awareness, like to acknowledge who you are, what your traditions are. Because if we don't know the place that we begin from, then we can't know anything else. Yeah.
00:44:16
Speaker
Well, I look forward to the next time that we chat. Our last question for you is the one that we ask everybody as we're closing up. What do you want the world to look like when you're done with it? Oh, shit.
00:44:35
Speaker
just a little bit better, you know, a little bit better than it was when I arrived. And I just hope that because of my life,
00:44:54
Speaker
there's a ripple, you know, wherever, like maybe a child that I knew when they were in pre-K, you know, when I taught, when I first started or Ellis or Sophia or Sophia's kids, you know, somehow that it just continues this little spark, you know? And so for me, it's like, I hope, I hope the earth and I are never done with each other, so. I hope not either.
00:45:25
Speaker
My thanks to my guest, Dr. Sandra Montes. You can follow her on Instagram at Sandra T. Montes. And the book, Becoming Real and Thriving in Ministry, is available wherever books are sold. Thank you so much for tuning in to Uncommon Good with Pauly Reese. This program is produced in Southwest Philadelphia on the unceded land of the Leni Lenape Tribe and the Black Bottom community. Our associate producers are Willa Jaffe and Kia Watkins.
00:45:51
Speaker
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00:46:02
Speaker
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00:46:22
Speaker
Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for listening. Until next time, wishing you every uncommon good to do your uncommon good, to be the uncommon good.