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Don P Hooper: Keep Fighting. Keep Fighting. Keep Fighting.
55 Plays1 year ago
Don P Hooper is a WGA-union screenwriter, an actor, and an author, whose new book True True hits bookstores on Tuesday, August 1.
Previously he contributed a story to Black Boy Joy: 17 Stories Celebrating Black Manhood.
CONTENT WARNING: trauma, racism, labor, explicit language, hate-based violence
We talk about:
The WGA/SAG-AFTRA strike
Shutting down productions across the country
How you can support writers and actors on strike
The importance of good mentors and collaborators
Tenacity and resistance as quintessential parts of black/African-American life
The novel writing process
Don’s first novel, True True
Questions of goodness, identity, and morality of AI
The through line of social uprising since 2016
survival, belonging, and community in a post-Trump world
Follow Don on instagram: www.instagram.com/madclownetry
Buy True True on Bookshop to support Don, the podcast, and your local bookstore: bookshop.org/a/95818/9780593462102
Buy Black Boy Joy on Bookshop to support Don, the podcast, and your local bookstore: bookshop.org/a/95818/9780593379936
Donate Aid for Striking Writers and Actors AND Learn More about Entertainment Community Fund Resources: https://entertainmentcommunity.org/how-get-help-and-give-help-during-work-stoppage
Donate Unrestricted Funds to the WGA East picket lines: https://venmo.com/steph_deluca
Donate Supplies in kind to the WGA East picket lines: https://www.target.com/gift-registry/gift/wgaestrike
This program is produced in south west philadelphia, in the unceded neighborhood of the black bottom community and on the ancestral land of the Lenape nation, who remain here in the era of the fourth crow and fight for official recognition by the commonwealth of Pennsylvania to this day. You can find out more about the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania and how you can support the revitalization of their culture by going to https://lenape-nation.org.
Visit this episode’s sponsor, BVP Coffee, roasting high quality coffee that benefits HBCU students: https://bvp.coffee/uncommongoodpod
Visit this episode's sponsor, Poi Dog, chef Kiki Aranita creating sauces inspired by Hawaiian Cuisine: https://poidogphilly.com
we chat to ordinary people doing uncommon good in service of our common humanity.
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Transcript
Writers' Strike and Public Support
00:00:00
Speaker
I don't think that those first two weeks of the riders strike to see the streets filled the way they were, to see people who weren't riders, just regular fans, people who supported the strike, that doesn't happen without the protests for George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. That doesn't happen without that public outcry that happened in 2020.
00:00:22
Speaker
people were ignited in that moment. And especially like, I don't know if it's Gen Z or whatever, but the youth, the people who were teenagers at that time. You see them out in full force. And like we were picketing in lower Manhattan multiple times. And I would just ask people like, oh, are you a writer? And they're like, they could say they pre-WGA or they were just like, just a fan. I just think this is wrong. I think you should get like that kind of sentiment where they were just people who were just doing the research.
Introduction of Podcast and Guest
00:01:00
Speaker
This is Uncommon Good, the podcast where we chat to ordinary people doing uncommon good in service of our common humanity. My name is Paulie Rees. Fam, I am delighted to bring you today author, WGA Union screenwriter, strike captain, and actor Don P. Hooper. He's got a brand new book, True True, his first ever novel hitting bookstores this week on Tuesday.
00:01:30
Speaker
I am so excited for you to get to know Don's work. Previously, he contributed a story to the Compendium Black Boy Joy, 17 Stories Celebrating Black Manhood. Here's a content warning for you. We discuss trauma, racism, labor, hate-based violence, and explicit language. And we do talk quite a bit about the WGA SAG afterstrike.
00:01:56
Speaker
So as always viewer and listener discretion is advised.
Significance of Strikes and Public Solidarity
00:02:01
Speaker
We go on to talk about what it has been like to shut down productions across the country. How the role of strike captain is so much about taking care of your people. How you listening and watching at home can support writers and actors on strike. The importance of good mentors and collaborators.
00:02:26
Speaker
the tenacity and resistance that are quintessential parts of black African-American life. The process of writing a novel and rewriting and rewriting
00:02:42
Speaker
And this first novel of Don's, True True, the story of how it came about, of writing himself into the characters. We ask questions of goodness, identity, and morality of AI. We trace the through line of social uprising since 2016.
Challenges of Organizing Picket Lines
00:03:00
Speaker
And we talk about survival, belonging, and community in a post-Trump presidency.
00:03:08
Speaker
world. This was one of the most powerful interviews I have ever had the privilege of recording. Please enjoy my chat to Don P Hooper.
00:03:21
Speaker
So, Don, I'll just jump right to it. I'm drinking some decaf coffee right now. How important is proper caffeination to a strike captain like yourself? I am not a caffeine drinker, but I've been on picket lines that have started as early as four or five a.m. And I always try to make sure there is coffee. That's a big thing because you need that energy early in the morning.
00:03:49
Speaker
For me, it's like by the time I get there, I usually haven't slept. Now that SAG is on strike, we don't have early morning pickets anymore. Most of them start at 9am. But coffee is still always welcome. People love coffee. So talk to me what it's like when it's hot at 9 in the morning and you have a bunch of creatives up way before any reasonable call time. You know what? Honestly, the energy with
00:04:14
Speaker
the writer's strike, especially like, you know, it started in May, like midnight from May 1st, going into May 2nd.
SAG's Involvement and Strategies in Labor Struggles
00:04:22
Speaker
And during that time, it was still chill outside, but like going into like late June, that's when it started to get really hot. And then by the time 9am, especially in July, 9am rolls around, 10am, especially in the city, you always have to stay moving so that they can't say that you're blocking an entrance.
00:04:42
Speaker
And there's so many people that eventually show up, especially with SAG after on strike two, that you always got to stay moving and you're sweating that whole time. So hydration is just important. That's a big thing for strike captains is to just, you know, be mindful of everybody that's on the line and just like always check in with them and make sure that they're hydrated and that they take breaks if they need to, you know, and also like sometimes, uh, change the direction of the circle because when you're walking in these tight loops,
00:05:10
Speaker
you'll notice like the next day that your hip has gone in one direction. You haven't changed it and you just like feel like weirdly off balance. So that was something I learned like maybe in May, somebody said it. I think I forgot where we were picketing, but like we're picketing a production and somebody's like, we should change the direction of the circle. And I was like, that makes logical sense. And then it helped out tremendously. Like my feet weren't off balance the next day. I was like, wow.
00:05:34
Speaker
So every day after that, like it's spread like wildfire, like change the direction of the circle is time. Change the direction of the circle. So that's, that's important. It's, it's, it's good, especially with like sag going on strike the second, third week of July, whichever it was, I think it was the 17th.
Public Support and Collective Effort in Strikes
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah. It's just a lot of renewed energy because, you know, two months in for the writers.
00:05:57
Speaker
people are on vacation nationally. There's only, there's 12,000 riders on strike, but nationally with SAG after there's I think 160,000 members, you know, some, some active, some not, but like that just increases the numbers of people and it just reinvigorates the energy. This is a long fight that we're, we're in for. And you've heard messages from like CEOs and executives of how they plan to just drag out this strike by starving us out. So.
00:06:25
Speaker
having that renewed energy, having that support from the public, people just stopping by. We've been in picket lines at live productions or on location shoots. And just fans, regular people stopping by like, I'll go get you guys water. That was really helpful. Just seeing that public support come out in that shape.
00:06:46
Speaker
people quickly giving us ways to not pass out was always helpful.
Influence of 2020 Protests on Labor Movements
00:06:50
Speaker
The energy around picketing for Black Lives Matter, around continuing to just be present and to dig in for the long haul as you said, the CEOs are saying that
00:07:05
Speaker
yes they're saying the inside things out loud and this this work for basic human dignity it has that same sort of sense that like there this is not the
00:07:19
Speaker
end of an old contract and the end of something, but it's the beginning of another thing that I think we all have to hope will be better. What it feels like as an outsider who has friends who are directly affected, as a consumer of my friend's work, does it feel like
00:07:42
Speaker
there is a legitimate opportunity for meaningful and very human progress with this.
Interconnectedness of Social Movements
00:07:52
Speaker
I think for me, the meaningful and human progress
00:07:57
Speaker
is what you see on the streets. I can't say what's going to happen at these executive levels and these CEO levels on the corporate side of it, but I don't think that those first two weeks of the writer's strike to see the streets filled the way they were, to see people who weren't writers, just regular fans, people who supported the strike
00:08:19
Speaker
that doesn't happen without the protest for George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. That doesn't happen without that public outcry that happened in 2020. People were ignited in that moment. And especially like, I don't know if it's Gen Z or whatever, but the youth, the people who were teenagers at that time. You see them out in full force. And like we were picketing in lower Manhattan multiple times and
00:08:44
Speaker
I would just ask people like, Oh, are you a writer? And they're like, they'd be, they could say they pre WGA, or they were just like, just a fan. I just think this is wrong. I think you should get like that kind of sentiment where they were just people who were just doing the research before we were putting it out there in a certain way. They had just, they just were fully supportive. And I think that that is what is constantly growing and seeing that
00:09:08
Speaker
increase.
Transparency in Entertainment Industry
00:09:10
Speaker
Like you also see the negative throwback of it. Like sometimes there's a negative throwback against this kind of organizing. But if not for 2020, and you know, obviously there were things that led up to 2020, right? Yes, of course. Black Lives Matter, before that Occupy Wall Street, Me Too, all those things cascading into what happened in 2020. And then now, which is like kind of centered on labor,
00:09:33
Speaker
And I think because of social media and the way that information is getting out there so quickly, people are quick to like when information is not relayed in a good way, people are quick to like, here's the facts, here's the evidence of it and putting that out there. And there's a resurgence of journalism that are happening by like,
00:09:52
Speaker
just ordinary people, like, okay, even with SAG-AFTRA, take SAG-AFTRA, for instance, people showing their residual checks, like, here is the evidence of us not getting
Struggles of Marginalized Groups
00:10:02
Speaker
paid. I worked on Orange and the New Black. Look at all the residuals, foreign fees, foreign fees. And then he says, three cents, three cents. Like, do you think I'm rich? No.
00:10:13
Speaker
I'm a working actor and this is what it looks like. And I think that's what is so empowering right now is that everyone is finally sharing these stories. Like I have so many friends who are on several sides of the business and a lot of times they're just fair to share their stories. Even when Me Too was happening, there are women who did not share certain stories during that time because you are afraid of the blowback.
00:10:39
Speaker
If you're a person of color, you're afraid of this blowback. Cause you know, like there's an executive who may not hire you again. Yes. You know, that could definitely happen. There's a writer's room or a, uh, a casting route. Like if that won't hire you again.
00:10:54
Speaker
You know, even now, like, sometimes I just want to say those names, but I can't do that, you know? And I was like, well, they hire me again. And I don't want to share somebody else's story because that's not mine to share. You know, but like, you know, having those, these other, these groups empowered right now and having them see other people share their stories helps them out getting through like the traumas that they've experienced in any of these types of, in any types of rooms, castings.
00:11:21
Speaker
yeah, writers rooms and all of it, you know, because it's, it's, there's so many things going on that are happening despite the writer strike that you get from producers and whatnot. And it's always like, at the very bottom, you have these, the writers and the actors and crew members, you know, taking the brunt.
Economic Struggles and Historical Parallels
00:11:40
Speaker
Yes. From people at the top. We like to look for like what unites us, what helps us remember that we're all in this together. And in many ways we, like humanity, we're all that we have. And when we turn against each other, we actually turn against ourselves. We saw being on our own team as our buddy, Tarek likes to say, be on your own team.
00:12:03
Speaker
The thing that strikes me is that the common ground that I think that you're describing, what I think I hear is, and tell me if I'm wrong.
00:12:13
Speaker
But the commonality that is uniting so many people in this space is this recognition that there is trauma. There's a catastrophic level of mass human suffering. It might not necessarily be that
00:12:37
Speaker
your house is underwater, as could be in the case literally in Vermont and other places where there's flooding, but that people like you, your colleagues, the folks on stage are spending these long, exhausting hours away from family and friends and there's just nothing, or at least not nearly enough to show for it.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, definitely not. And we're united in that. Right now, it's called labor. And we're thinking about the labor side of it. But it's all the hardships that are imposing us because you're not making enough to just sustain a living. And with
Empathy and Solidarity in Social Movements
00:13:20
Speaker
inflation happening the way it's been and your salary is not increasing at a certain level, you can't afford to feed your family. You're stressed out because of the bills that aren't coming.
00:13:31
Speaker
worried about whether a residual check is going to come in or isn't going to come in or how many other jobs you have to take. I know that those stresses just compound on anything that you're going through.
00:13:42
Speaker
and anything that you may be going through at the workplace. And if you listen to what the Teamsters at UPS are saying, it's just like, yeah, the full timers are making $45 an hour. Yes, they're going to get an increase in raise and salary of $1 something. But they're like, we're not fighting for us. There are part-time workers who are only getting paid 16 an hour. And that's what Solid Area is about. It's like, yeah, we're making this. Yeah, we're getting an increase.
00:14:08
Speaker
But you're forgetting about this, that all these other people are working and you're not compensating them. They're doing ostensibly the same job, but just not full time. So they are getting punished by only getting $16 an hour, like what is that, a third of what the full-time worker is getting paid. And that's what is going on with SAG and the WJ.
00:14:30
Speaker
everyone starts seeing like, oh, you everyone in actor is so rich. And it's like, yeah, there's a certain percent, you know, may have been wealthy. And a lot of them are on the streets with us, because it's something I heard in that first week of the strike, this writer from the world for David Letterman, Bill Shefft, and he just said, Yeah, I had a successful career. I'm not out here for me. Yeah, I want everybody who comes behind me
00:14:53
Speaker
to be successful and have a chance to live a positive life and just live to maintain like some some cost of living, you know, doing this. And that's why he comes out every almost every day to pick it, you know, and this is somebody who was who had been on Letterman probably like 20 years. Wow.
00:15:13
Speaker
coming back out in pavements. And like, I remember texting him like, Hey, can I get you to come out to the financial district for this location shoot at 5am? And he said, Okay, and it showed up, you know. And sometimes it's hard to get my friends to come up to that. And like, just, it's that
00:15:32
Speaker
that empathy, you know, like saying like, hey, I don't want somebody to struggle. I'm out here for them. You know, I'm out here for somebody else. I think that's so cool about what's happening now is like everyone is, they're not just fighting for themselves. They're fighting for other people. They're fighting for another generation. They're fighting just for artists and creatives and for labor. And I think that's just really exciting. And that's what got me up every day for like what, until the actors want to try like 75 days or 73 days.
00:15:58
Speaker
So this is what I'm curious about, because as you've described this, that a person like Bill Shaft, thank you, sir, for your work. If you happen to hear this, thank you, you're a saint, making sure you stay hydrated and get those electrolytes too. I've seen the Instagrams of all of the stars that are out there, all of the folks that won,
00:16:22
Speaker
1% of 1% that are out there most days doing that work. And that's incredible. But as many of those that we see, surely there are dozens more that might not be out there that make
Historical Patterns of Social Unrest
00:16:40
Speaker
a different choice, which is their choice to make. But I wonder
00:16:45
Speaker
Do you think that there's a through line that helps a person to have that level of empathy for one's fellow person that we can trace? What makes a person feel compassion for another person, I guess, is the question. I don't know where that comes from.
00:17:08
Speaker
I mean, for me, it's that moment where there's always those moments when you were a child and you remember your origin story and like, maybe this happened to you when you were a kid. And you had that feeling like, I don't want this for everybody else. I got inflicted with this trauma. Or maybe this is just what I feel. You know, like I got inflicted with this trauma or my friends got inflicted with this trauma. I don't want that for everybody else.
00:17:34
Speaker
Maybe it is in those cartoons or books that we read. And it was like, oh, that's a hero. Maybe that's what I'm trying to do. I want to do that for somebody else. I'm OK with sacrificing. It's that need to put somebody else before you in front of you. Like, I'm OK with that. I think it's in good teachers that you see their sacrifices in, like, not necessarily parents, but parental figures.
00:18:01
Speaker
who you see what they did, they gave you some advice and what they went through and watching that. We're in an era where they're banning so many books. It's having a chance to read a book and seeing that somebody out there reflects who you are. And you're like, oh, and that like, OK, now I had to love myself. I could have my brothers. And that's when their empathy gets born. That person on the cover of that book looks like me. Exactly. That's so huge.
00:18:31
Speaker
It's so huge and so rare to see that. And now there's a movement against it. And it's insane, for lack of a better word.
00:18:41
Speaker
But it's like a way to like, it's almost a way to stymie or to stop empathy from happening because there's like, there's always a pushback and a need for erasure in people's existence. And I think that's what gets people out in the streets more. It's just like, no, you will not erase us. You will not, our stories will be told in some way, you know? Whatever that story is, it's like, we're gonna be there for you, for others.
00:19:08
Speaker
And you see it on Instagram, you know, like, yeah, or people start sharing stories. That has nothing to do with them, but it's like, Oh, I can't believe this is happening. And that that's, that's great. You know, the sucky part is because of the algorithm, we're only getting shown what we like to see. And yeah, that happens for both sides and everyone just sees their own.
00:19:29
Speaker
echo chamber. I wonder what that what the algorithm looks like for for an executive AMPZP looks like just someone saying that like go like go count your money or or compassion
Impact of AI and Technology on Labor
00:19:40
Speaker
is compassion is meaningless or it doesn't sell or or find a way to or even more insidiously find a way to go sell compassion and monetize it or what
00:19:50
Speaker
Well, I mean, that's what it is, right? Not the same week that the actors went on strike where Bob Iger's statement came out and then the executive statement came out about starving the strikers out until they can't afford their apartments. And then Bob Iger saying that, you know, everyone's being unreasonable. Bob Iger, Zazlov from
00:20:11
Speaker
Warner Brothers, Zuckerberg. They were all at a billionaire's summer camp. I don't remember the name of it, but you could look it up. It's like literally a billionaire retreat that got started by hedge funds, I think, of financial services. And they get a bunch of billionaires out there to just hang out. We're having a sort of glass onion moment, but in real life,
00:20:32
Speaker
This is, I believe they're doing the squeak games there. Let's go off what grid and this is like, who we murdering today? All right. Now that we've got that done. The frightening thing is your, your student of history, as am I.
00:20:49
Speaker
There's no reason for us to be surprised by any of this when there's this level of disparity of access to basic human need, support and wealth. This is Rome burning as Nero fiddles. This is even further back. This is the Pax Romana while there seems to be some element of peace that
00:21:13
Speaker
that hundreds of thousands of other cultures are slowly trampled out or their voices crushed into suppression. This is the time of Charles Dickens and A Christmas Carol. This is the time of the Great Depression. This is one of the greatest
00:21:34
Speaker
times of such economic strife. I imagine certainly in our lifetime, the three of us are millennials here on the call. It's hard to remember a time in our lifetime besides that so-called golden era of the 80s where there hasn't been a steady trajectory towards widening disparity of wealth inequality.
00:22:00
Speaker
And through the lens of history, this almost seems inevitable, that there would be this shutdown of labor when what's been communicated to us and the way that we experience labor is that we see it dramatized. You know, it's interesting to me. I remember in 2020, I did feel like, okay, this is it. This is the fall of Rome. We're in a pandemic and this is happening.
00:22:29
Speaker
but now we're in this moment where it's just like, you're wondering if it's like that Shakespearean moment and it's like, is this the moment where somebody's going to get Caesar and be like, yo, like what happens here? And it's not coincident, like I have so much conversations with Teamsters that they, not Teamsters with IOTC, how the IOTC contract is in September of 2024. So it's no coincidence that they keep our contracts apart so that this couldn't happen all at the same time.
00:22:56
Speaker
Yeah. You know, like imagine that, you know, like where everyone puts the stock market ahead of people and shareholder and investor value. Everyone dives into if I could buy these shares, it becomes a gamble. Whereas executives and CEOs, they're kind of gifted the stocks or they get it at a superbly large discount.
Financial Pressures and Systemic Accountability
00:23:20
Speaker
Whereas like you got to put your money up
00:23:22
Speaker
You know, or you put your pension up, like law enforcement, that's one of the biggest things is like their pension is huge. The teacher's pension is huge. Whoever gets to control that has so much influence, you know, who gets to run their pension funds. So with technology going the way it is, the way Wall Street is toting AI right now when you have stocks like Nvidia and Adobe, which are just skyrocketing just because people are,
00:23:51
Speaker
basically celebrating the erasure of jobs. Yes. And then, you know, me being like a science nerd and everything like.
00:23:59
Speaker
the singularity projected for 2029, it's like, this is like a matrix moment in time. And I'm like, are we like, we can't just turn our, I don't understand people who are celebrating all this because, or this AI, which is really statistics, because it's all based off of stuff that we've done, right? AI doesn't think for itself, it's fed our scripts. And then it does, it takes in our bodies and maps our skin onto it. They want to fully scan
00:24:29
Speaker
a human being and just use that body in perpetuity. You know, I literally just obliterated your existence and paid you like a thousand bucks for it or something like that and erased that job. Like tent cities are growing across the nation. I don't see how somebody doesn't see that there's a problem happening right now. And I feel like somebody should be helped. People should be held accountable for whatever is happening right now because everyone's credit is just getting extended for the past year. They last year, even though like
00:24:58
Speaker
There were two consecutive quarters of economic downturn. It wasn't labeled a recession. And if it's not labeled a recession, it's not a recession. And then everyone's credit got extended, so they still had money to spend. But now everyone is in larger debt. I don't understand how somebody isn't being held accountable for that.
00:25:18
Speaker
And then 2020, the Paramount Accords, which got erased, which was like a 1940s case, an antitrust case, got erased while we were, you know, dealing with a pandemic, dealing with protests, dealing with so many things, all the emotional turmoil out of that. Yeah, I just don't, I feel like
00:25:41
Speaker
there's gonna be another calm in a year or two. And then I don't know what that next explosion really looks like because there's just a lot of people who are hurting right now. It's like a dog barking in the background. It was like, yes, I agree. That dog will be the unofficial mascot of the episode. We should give the dog a name and hold space for the dog.
00:26:02
Speaker
What is the dog's name? Spot. Spot. Yeah, the dog's name is Spot. Spot just started barking. Okay, Spot. It looks like the dog's name is Spot. You said Spot, and the dog started barking again. Spot started barking. Yeah, all right, Spot. He has therefore dubbed, so therefore is, so therefore ever shall be, Spot, the unofficial mascot of season two, episode
00:26:26
Speaker
Insert number here. Yeah I don't know. It's coming out. It's coming out very very soon because talking about the strike is important and Even though the strike is clearly not going away like we need to keep talking about it justice But but that's the thing though, right? We so
Unity Across Social Movements
00:26:40
Speaker
we're so what we're talking about is systems
00:26:42
Speaker
Sometimes I worry that our vision gets so myopic, so nearsighted that we lose sight of as you've identified the systems in play and understanding human behavior by paying attention to how the systems work. You identified that there have been these quiet eradications. These are the patterns of behavior that happen when there are not safeguards in place to prevent the hoarding of resources.
00:27:12
Speaker
in place to prevent the actual creation of scarcity when abundance is the reality. None of this is necessary. I wonder what, as you've identified, because what the next outcry from the oppressed person, from the sick, the hurting, the injured,
00:27:35
Speaker
the exhausted the dying of preventable disease person will be when it happens again because as you've identified like there's no reason to think that it won't and probably in a more extreme iteration like is there will that all I have are all of these existential questions will there ever be a time where enough will actually be enough you know I think
00:28:05
Speaker
As far as if I map out time, I feel like Occupy Wall Street was the first big thing that was happening at one point.
00:28:15
Speaker
Cause that was like, I think there was like 9-11 and Occupy Wall Street felt like a thing that was happening nationally. It felt like nationally. And then that may have moved into, I want to say next was love is love. Like that phrase came out after a shooting right after Occupy Wall Street. And then Black Lives Matter.
00:28:37
Speaker
And then me too. And then the George Floyd, Breonna Taylor protests. It just feels like the window between these big national things is getting smaller and smaller each time. And I feel like whatever comes next is going to be, I don't know. At one point, all of the movements have to like realize that they're interconnected.
00:28:56
Speaker
And they're not standing individually because it's always the same people out, you know, it's just, but at one point it's just like, Oh, it's, it's all of us and we're all in this and we're all struggling. But you see it on the ground, you know, there's, there is friction between it. Like you'll see a right wing movement within labor, you know, like we're united in labor right here. But like, there's also this right wing sentiment happening here. And, you know, there was an era.
00:29:22
Speaker
in history, or at least in recent history of like the 80s and 90s, where right and left kind of at least talked about things. It felt like they talked about it. Whether or not they came to an agreement or not, I don't know. But it felt like they could talk about it in public in a way that let people feel like they came to resolution or became more intelligent afterwards. But now it's no longer like that. I don't like your face. I don't like anything about it.
00:29:50
Speaker
Well, there's just a level of hate that is out there now that I yeah, maybe it was buried all this time Oh, yeah, it was buried or maybe yeah didn't see it It's so harshly
Systemic Discrimination and Public Behavior
00:30:00
Speaker
and we didn't realize it was happening nationally and and now that people could speak so loudly It's just like oh shit all these people hate us lipstick on a pay guy guys. Oh
00:30:13
Speaker
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00:30:35
Speaker
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00:30:51
Speaker
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00:31:10
Speaker
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00:31:34
Speaker
I'm thinking about behavior, thinking about how it's been so common to just see more aggressive and violent and life threatening behavior motivated by clear signs of identity markers worth of discrimination, whether that's racism or queer phobia or ableism or ageism or any of the other things that I mean, let's name it.
00:32:04
Speaker
that makes you not a young able-bodied white man.
00:32:10
Speaker
Right. I think what you've identified is that there used to be some sense of whether it was public shaming or some sense of decorum that kept people from expressing behaviors and saying the inside thing out loud or doing like the, the violent fantasy thing to another person or writing a policy that allows those things to happen more easily.
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know because it's just like you have SCOTUS has just erased, what, 60 years? Of course, 670 years. Every day it's like, oh, we fuck this shit. We're doing this. That existed. There was some type of balance at least somewhere, right? Or maybe it didn't exist. I have no idea. I struggle to figure that out every day. Were we just blind and
00:33:05
Speaker
I mean, it was always happening. It's not like none of us experienced some type of bigotry at some point multiple times. It's just that it's exacted on a media level now, which is insane. We didn't have that. Maybe we did.
Activism, Resilience, and Personal Reflections
00:33:20
Speaker
I don't know. It feels all sad. A lot of it feels sad. When I go out in the street, when I'm striking,
00:33:29
Speaker
I'm not gonna lie, to see some of the people online, and it's usually like the most diverse of crowds, you know, like the people in the crowd are just like, we'll see the especially at those when it was those early morning pickets. It was like, people of color, women, queer, it was like, it was just like a whole group of us. And it was like, it's interesting that the people who have been activated, you kind of reflect this and but this isn't
00:33:53
Speaker
necessarily indicative of what the writers rooms, all writers rooms look like. Yes. But we're fighting for more than just what the writers are fighting for. It's just like, because we know we'll probably leave with a better, you know, I don't know. No, you do. Like, say it. Like, say it. No, it's just like, we know what our struggles has been that whole time. So we've been waiting for this moment to say all this stuff, you know.
00:34:20
Speaker
And it's like we know that people have to get behind it, you know, and I do feel and I've had this conversation with, you know, black people and I, I see it's like, do you feel that black people will come out of this? The writers will come out of it in a better way. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know that part, but I'm not going to stop fighting. Yeah, I don't stop. All I could do is try to push for change. You know, I definitely enjoy the time that I spent on the picket.
00:34:46
Speaker
And I'm going back next week for a sports solidarity day. So we'll see me there Wednesday if that's where you're going to be at. Oh, thank you. So again, the, this is a thing that strikes me just as, as you're talking about this, because we've had the pleasure of talking about how you're pivoting from, from a life of having done completely to your military service and looking to move into writing and into
00:35:15
Speaker
into working in the entertainment industry. What does this feel like for you as a person who is, this is the career that you're looking to create. And yes, that's not true. I haven't disabused myself of the dream of having a viral video and then turning this into a major podcast empire. So yeah, I'm admitting my own little lie, but what does this look like to start working?
00:35:43
Speaker
This always knew I would be here. It's like when I was going to be here and be confident and strong enough in my talent and my ability to make this my career. And now that it's a fight, it's power for the course. I fought for everything I've ever wanted in my life. This is no different. You know, fight every day. That's what we do. And my father taught me how to go out and get what I wanted. And this is no different. Something I want. I'm going to go get it. I don't know. I'm not dissuaded at all. You know, bring it on.
00:36:13
Speaker
That's kind of how I feel about it. The sort of fight that you both are describing, what's the spirit under that for each of you? I know for me, it's just sort of like, it's existential nothingness. If for whatever little things that I fight about, if I don't keep going, then there isn't anything else. I found out very early on why the Caseberg thing
Motivations for Writing and Activism
00:36:40
Speaker
And sometimes it's because that's all she can do. I don't want to diminish the fight at all, but I mean, it's all I know, honestly. How do you feel, Dawn? I feel like that was color purple, too. How long you been fighting? All my life? Yeah. Oh, associate. Yeah, it's not despair. Because when I'm in despair mode, I am just on my couch for hours and hours.
00:37:10
Speaker
It's not that. For me, it's almost like if I keep fighting, I don't have to think about how fucked up everything is. It's almost a distraction also. It's like if I sit down and have to think about what is happening and how jacked up the situation is,
00:37:27
Speaker
I may enter that despair mode and it's like, no, I have to push myself outside. Just using the strike as an example, I remember by the third week, we were so exhausted. There was a small number of us that were doing these early morning pickets and we'd be going from one production to another and sometimes 12 hours of just picketing from
00:37:49
Speaker
And then you couldn't sleep because, you know, you get home and then you're like trying to figure out where the next picket is and we don't know. Because we're like trying to figure out what the next production is like. We're the street signs that we're looking for cones. We have like people on the streets finding cones for us like, okay, there's no parking signs out here. What time should we get there? Well, if we get there at five, the trucks may have already arrived. We got to get there before like the teamsters arrive. We got to do all this. And then one time I was just like burnt out and we were having meetings and
00:38:14
Speaker
Celine Robinson. She was a writer. She was a writer on SVU. She wrote on Andor. We only, I only met her like maybe the second day of the strike outside of Silver Cup. And, sure.
00:38:25
Speaker
She's like, all right, I'll see you at this pick at 2 AM. And I'm like, I thought we was supposed to take a day off. And I went home. I'm like, I'm not going in. And I see some text message. And I'm just like, all right, this is what we do. If we keep fighting, I don't got to think about how fucked up this is. I don't got to think about like, why aren't there? Why isn't every writer in New York here with us? Why are we doing the fight for everybody?
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah. And it's just like, no, don't think about that. If I keep doing it, somebody else may join on and that's what you hope. And it's like her saying that she was going to be out there at 2am was just like, all right, I'm going to be out there at 2am. You know, you need somebody to be there and just be like, be like a driving force. And she would say, I see, you know, that just you try and find your motivation any way you can.
00:39:14
Speaker
I kind of look for it. I'm trying to find something to cling on to a lot of times. It's like almost like, and sometimes I call my friend Eric Hutchinson up sometimes and I'm just like, he's like, I just realized that when you talk to me, you never want advice. You just want to be heard and know that someone's out there trying to listen to you. And you want to know that whatever decision you've made is okay. And I think that that's part of it for me. It's like, I know I want to go out there.
00:39:40
Speaker
I know I wanna continue that fight. But if somebody gives me the briefest gap, the smallest entryway to take a break or a breather, I'm not saying that I probably need that breather. But the thing is, if I take too long of a breather, even as just a creative, if I take too long away from writing, then it grows. Then the apathy grows in me. That's just how I am. If I take a week off from writing, it's gonna take me two weeks to get back into that flow.
00:40:09
Speaker
If I take this amount of time off from the gym, it's just like, no, I just want to, you know, it's all those stresses are adding up, you know, you have to go to therapy. It's just like, oh, man, I got to deal with all this stuff. And you start thinking about it. And I, to me, I'm looking for a reason to not think sometimes.
00:40:25
Speaker
I just want to act and not act in a bad way. But like all these experiences that have led up to this moment have told me that this is a good thing and this will help people out or, you know, so that that's what I kind of go into autopilot in many ways, not artificial intelligence pilot, but autopilot. And also the residuals check might be shit, so there won't be any money for therapy anyway. Hey, oh, yeah, it's no longer residual checks. That's the bigger. That's a huge thing. Yeah.
00:40:52
Speaker
There was a time where we got money and you could kind of use that to carry yourself over between jobs, but now it's just like the way streaming happened and the way they moved it with a contract that's from still just kind of duct taped on from the sixties. It's like, there's no way you can make.
00:41:09
Speaker
a living off of creative anymore. And they're literally trying to just like feed our scripts into AI and then use that, you know, which is artificial intelligence. I forgot where I read this, though. It was like somebody was just using like a try to find the sexy term for it.
00:41:24
Speaker
But it's really artificial statistics because it is all based on statistics is never fully accurate. So it's just a big misnomer that's just pilfering off of our work. What was it? Machine learning. It's predictive. It's trying to predict what it thinks we might need. But that's the work of being human.
00:41:45
Speaker
of seeing the other, seeing what the other needs, like what the human spirit needs is paying attention and bearing witness and holding space for each other, just choosing not to look away when shit hits the fan, I guess. No, I feel like people are missing out on the human side of art and how important that is. Like this is Comic Con weekend. I used to go to Comic Con in San Diego while I was doing journalism from like
00:42:13
Speaker
maybe 2009 to 2014 or something like that. And to see the fans line up, to see the writers or the actors, imagine that you're obliterating. They were finding connections with those people. Why are you writing these stories? How did you act in this moment? They're connecting with the human.
00:42:37
Speaker
They're not connecting with a computer. They want to go out and see the humans that are bringing stories that made them feel seen or made them see something in themselves that they didn't know existed. They're like, oh, this is what I want. This is the energy that I'm trying to bring to life. Or this is giving voice to something that I didn't have a chance to give voice to. And I could see myself, or is this just my fucking escape? Yo, I want to do this. That's cool too.
00:43:06
Speaker
I feel like we're becoming or we're trying to be turned into a space where you can get Michelangelo's David at McDonald's. And it's really sad. You know, I feel
Value of Art and Creativity in Media
00:43:20
Speaker
like just coming in, like I might get to miss out a bit because they don't make movies on film no more, for the most part. And there's an art to that. There's a craft to that that, you know, if the AMPTP gets their way, you know,
00:43:35
Speaker
That might just go by the wayside altogether and it's kind of sad for me. But yeah, I don't that was just my side. Yeah, I mean for me I like I learned to edit audio on tape like learned the there there's a gosh I'm this is I'm thinking back to like the media theorists like, you know, like back to Marshall McLuhan talking about the media is the message and
00:43:59
Speaker
back to Walter Benjamin talking about the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction. And the way that you make art changes what the art says and changes how we consume it. When you have to, and yes, we do use AI to help us produce this podcast because we legitimately do not have the staffing and the resources to be able to do more. So yes, not a perfect world. I'm sorry, the internet.
00:44:28
Speaker
But there's something to be said for understanding the human cost of knowing how to create things for folks. And when you spend hours cutting cells together, reattaching them, you have to make one very careful choice because you only get to cut the film once.
00:44:48
Speaker
and there is no undo button, it feels somehow different. When you make pilgrimage to Comic Con and you go there, you buy the plane ticket and you pay for the hotel with your 12 other friends so that you can afford to buy your Gatorade and granola bars for the week, it feels different than
00:45:12
Speaker
if you're watching the stream from home. I hate admitting how wonderfully kitschy that Nicole Kidman AMC, the pre-film commercial is, but it's true. There is something to be said about
00:45:28
Speaker
the almost ritual-like experience of committing time and resources simply as a participant, as an end user, to enjoying the art. Maybe you just enjoy it more, and sure, I mean it's like improv, maybe the art sometimes will be shit. Like, Hot Take, like Indiana Jones and Dial of Destiny was not
00:45:55
Speaker
great and frankly kind of racist but was indiana jones ever not racist though wasn't it racist it wasn't always like that it belongs in a museum no it belongs back in the ground where you found it great job of handling the southeast asian people and and frankly the east asian people good job george okay
00:46:26
Speaker
I just, I'll rephrase. I think what I'm looking, the qualifier that I was hoping for some sense of
00:46:43
Speaker
potential redemption is that this was the first Indiana Jones film that was produced after all of the events that you've identified. The last one was produced, I guess it was probably conceived and scripted, went through storyboarding in 2006 in order to be released in 2008, maybe sooner. What movie was that? Crystal Skull with Cate Blanchett being a communist. Is that the one with Shia LaBeouf? Yeah. Shia LaBeouf. Yeah, I did not watch that.
00:47:14
Speaker
I Mean Alan Cummins in the ash, right? Yeah at a cabaret Isn't that didn't that happen did it wasn't that night he got arrested or something? I'm sorry You're not wrong
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah. Like that happened. I mean, like, again, not an ex not like a licensed expert, but like the kid has trauma. Like, yes. Like the, what, what, what was it that he's, that he, he later confessed that some of the really excessive components, like really like sort of exhibitionist, like exploitative components of honey boy were, were probably like largely exaggerated and potentially fictitious, but they're,
00:48:04
Speaker
Like, the boy has trauma. I guess what I mean is that, yes, Lucas and Spielberg did not direct, did not write, or like two or three circles removed, executive producers probably at the level of creative consultant with potential veto authority, right?
00:48:25
Speaker
But there was an opportunity to be better because of all of the reckonings of gender justice and racial justice and queer justice that have happened in the most public of Fora. And we got the movie that we did. Well, I mean, it's like you said, right? You can't
00:48:50
Speaker
That's why other stories just need to be told and you need to have people who are non-white, able-bodied, white men who tell everything because they won't see that story. They'll make a story with zombies. So that's why we need more writers at all levels who could bring their experiences to the front and have livable working conditions and get compensated fairly for the stories that they're bringing out and that we bring to the table.
00:49:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think that to me is always the case. Anytime somebody is like, they're looking at a Marvel project, any of the big blockbusters, all I could think is like, don't spend your money on it. That's my always approach is it's like, I stopped being interested in the big blockbusters. If there's a property that I love and I'm nostalgic for, then I'll go to it. But I'd much rather support anything that is independent or at least
00:49:46
Speaker
you know, some story that's different, something that's not McDonald's, like all those black buses feel like McDonald's to me. I can't do it anymore. At some point that's the only power you have is like to not give somebody your money.
Importance of Diverse Storytelling
00:50:00
Speaker
And it's like, I'm not going to give you my money. If there's something else, or maybe there's something in that movie that's just like, I want to give my money to that, you know, then that's what I will do. Like for me, it's like, that's why right now, even in movies, I don't go to a lot of movies. I'd rather just
00:50:16
Speaker
find a new book, a new author that speaks something, something that's different, something that makes me feel. I don't, I go to a movies and it's just like shock, shock, shock, but have I felt anything? Have I been moved to anything? Has it changed me in anywhere, like given me another perspective? And it's like, if I haven't learned or somehow gotten better, I think, I don't know.
00:50:38
Speaker
feels like a waste. I leave there mad that I spent my money. I don't want to leave entertainment thing and be like, oh man, why'd I spent $20 plus give myself indigestion with these nachos, this cheese and this slurpee that I ended up getting, because I will always get the slurpee and the nachos. Which is like $40. I could read a book and that lasts me for what, a week maybe, depending on how long I'm reading it or two days. So much more enjoyment.
00:51:06
Speaker
What is the last thing you saw in a theater that you were like that was money well spent besides just going into the lobby and buy and like so that you can buy a bag of moody theater popcorn and then like just enjoying that like at the concession stand.
00:51:21
Speaker
Everything everywhere all at once. Yes. I mean, that, that, that was my, I sadly, because of the strike, I've wanted to see the blackening and the new Spider-Man movie, which is the new Spider-Man Miles Morales movie. But yeah, I would say that. Yeah. Everything ever roll at once. That was just amazing. I'll also, my, my nachos are movie theater popcorn. I don't know what it is about the butter, like the butter flavoring, but it just, it's nostalgic probably more than anything else. I,
00:51:49
Speaker
I want to pivot a little bit because we would be remiss if we didn't talk about your own work. Is it okay if we talk a little bit about Black Boy Joy and True True? I know that you're on strike with the Writers Guild, but I do know that we do have that to celebrate that you are still releasing a book in August.
00:52:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's not screenwriting, thankfully. So Blackboard Joy was this compendia that you contributed to. And that was how I first became aware of your work as a writer. It became this thing that I just sort of like a switch flipped for me. And then eventually I picked up a copy of the book and read. And then here comes True True. Please tell us all about the book.
00:52:40
Speaker
Well, it was funny because those two things actually happened around the same time because I found out I would be in Black Boy Joy November 8th, I think of 2020, because what happened was I was in that big depressed moment in 2020 of like June after I got attacked by the cops. And then in like July, a friend was like, she was like doing this market research thing and she just like asked me to come out. And then I didn't realize I hadn't gone outside.
00:53:08
Speaker
in like 45 days. So I was like in this very sad, isolated moment, just like living alone and everything. And then August came around and Danielle Page, amazing writer, wrote the Dorothy Must Die series and the Raven series. She tweets to me, she goes, Don, enter this. And it was Kwame Umbalia had a tweet out and it said, they were looking for two unpublished, not traditionally published.
00:53:38
Speaker
black male or non-binary writers to potentially contribute to this anthology called Black Boy Joy. I was not in a happy space. And then I think it was due on the entries were due October 30th. And I think I wrote it that night or October 31st or whatever. I wrote it that night, but in my mind, I probably was writing it the whole time. And I just wanted to write a story about a kid
00:54:03
Speaker
who does something that he may get in trouble for, you know, because he jumps a fence, then he just goes on a fucking space adventure and just goes on like just has an adventure in space because we never get that as a black kid gets to just have fun and go on an adventure and it not be about, you know, trauma or anything like that. And I just wanted to do that.
00:54:25
Speaker
Yeah. So on November 8, I think you're supposed to find out by like November 5. And then I was like, November 6 came out, I was like, Of course, I didn't get it. You know, I submitted my manuscripts to like, my first manuscript that ever wrote, which will never see the light of day, got like, rejected like a billion times. It took me like 10 years to write it. It was like this fantasy book. And
00:54:46
Speaker
Yeah, it just got purely rejected by literary agents and editors. And at the same time, I had submitted. So yeah, so the November 8th came around, Kwame writes to me, and he's like, loves you to be in this anthology. And I'm just like, I just started doing bad. I was like, what? This is real. I kept reading it over and over again, because I was like, no, no, they were supposed to announce it two days ago.
00:55:07
Speaker
So I was like, what a reason. And I was like, oh, this is great. And then on December 1st, eight chapters of True True went out to editors. And on December 2nd, Stacey Barney of Penguin asked to have a Zoom with me. So we met that Friday and then three more editors started emailing me asking to meet with me. So this is only in the span of two months that I had
00:55:30
Speaker
One black boy, Joy, they said they wanted to put my story into the anthology that will come out in 2021. And then editors were interested in this novel about, so True True is about a kid from Brooklyn, Caribbean parents, who transfers to a Manhattan prep school to pursue robotics. He gets attacked in a racist altercation, and then he reads Sun Tzu and stages a war against the school and the administration, or he sets out to do that.
00:55:59
Speaker
And so, you know, juggling, like, dealing with my own traumas of being, like, attacked in high school or getting into fights over racism. Working with students today who are dealing with, like, the same things. Yeah. That was also putting me in a stressful mindset because I'm, like, going through, like, what those emotions are and reliving it in many ways.
00:56:20
Speaker
while dealing with the fact that I had been attacked by the cops, Black Boy Joy comes around and gives me this moment to think about what was happy again, you know? Yes. And then, you know, in mid-December 2020, the book True True goes to auction, and then I end up with Stacey Barney, who's a Black woman who
00:56:38
Speaker
coincidentally grew up in Brooklyn
Personal Experiences Influencing Storytelling
00:56:40
Speaker
and is from Caribbean parents and she really loved it. She said she loved my voice and yeah, then Black Boy Joy came on 2021 and then True True is coming out August 1st. So it was like a really exciting moment for me to have that feeling, but then you're trying to just write and then you don't have a time to just enjoy it. Yes. You know, so you're just being in the writing mode. Like even, you know, when Black Boy Joy became a New York Times bestseller, it didn't mean anything to me.
00:57:08
Speaker
You know, I was just like, all right, what does that mean? I'm still living in the same place. I'm dealing with the same bills, dealing with the same socioeconomic problems. Yeah. But like, it was cool, like three weeks later when it was like, oh, LeBron James came up, released a book with another writer who probably did the writing and didn't debut number one on the list. And I never, and Black Boy Joy debuted number one. And I was like, oh, wow. I didn't realize that.
00:57:32
Speaker
the New York Times bestseller list was like, there was this prestige in it, you know, because you know that certain authors are going to obviously be at the top because of their celebrity status. So I was like, Oh, wow, this book with just black writers. And the thing about that was great about Black Boy Joy is like, it introduced me to this writing community that was amazing and beautiful.
00:57:50
Speaker
and super supportive. Bebe Austin, George M. Johnson, Julian Winter, just a lot of good, a lot of amazing authors. And I'm interested to see how True True goes because now my name is on the cover. And that is all the fears going on with that because you talk to other authors and you see how they're promoting their books and doing all they can to
00:58:13
Speaker
you know, beat whatever algorithm is out there. Cause you know, it's your debut novel. You know, if you do well, it's great. If you don't, then it's like every next book remembers that kind of, you know, until you have another boost or whatever. So I don't know how any of this works. We'll all learn together. The, the question for, for which that was the context is are you, are you going to record an audio book for it?
00:58:39
Speaker
There is an audiobook that's already been recorded. I actually wanted somebody else to do the voiceover for it because one because it was like my debut. I didn't want to for several reasons. I just want I also want just you know, because it was almost like very personal for me this book. Yeah. Because like there's a moment in there that is inspired by stuff that I went through.
00:59:01
Speaker
everything else is kind of fictionalized. But there is some stuff, real stuff that connects to me that I didn't want my voice when I heard it. Yeah. And that's what like kind of made it difficult to write at times because I was like so far removing myself from the character. And then it was like, no, I need to put some of that back in there. When I first read it in galley form, I was like, Oh, wow. And it's a lot to do with Stacy Barney's
00:59:24
Speaker
input like she she talked to me like like somebody like I don't know how to describe it but yeah but it was more than that it was just like she was just very real and honest like brutally so and it's what I needed yeah like I don't need anyone to sugarcoat it she was like at one point she there was this character and she was like yo why are you doing my girl dirty I just went like that with me big sister energy big sis I mean she it was just really good
00:59:52
Speaker
energy and it was just like all in favor of and she was like, never like making about what she wanted to hear or whatnot. She was just always trying to make me a better writer, you know? And she was like, you have a great voice. I just need you to use it. And she was just like, what are you trying to what do you want to say here?
01:00:10
Speaker
And then she was like, well, what about like, you know, so you got to make sure this and like over the course of like three months, we just like I like almost rewrote like 60% of the book from scratch. And it was just like, I just thought she was like, chop away. And I was like, yeah, going at it. And it was just really exciting. But I was like, the whole summer of last year was just like going through it. And I did find one. But anyway, the audio book
01:00:33
Speaker
Christopher Grant did this amazing audio book, he's an amazing narrator and I'm just really excited for it. I haven't actually heard it, but when I heard him audition for it, Chris Grant, when I heard him audition for it, I was like, I heard a bunch of other auditions first.
01:00:48
Speaker
I was not feeling them. And I was happy that they actually looped me in on it. Because I was like, oh man, this is how this is what ends up happening. Is that you get a voice that doesn't really match it. And Christopher Grant just like he really had a he ended up he grew up in Brooklyn. The moment I heard I was like, this is somebody who's from Brooklyn.
01:01:07
Speaker
This is somebody who at least has a Caribbean family. He got a lot of the stuff in it and it was amazing to hear. Just the audition. He did like four pages and I was like, I could listen to this. This is great. Thank God I didn't say it. Let me voice it. A couple of things. I love that for you. You got to cast the actor and I can't wait to hear it. What is the way for us to purchase the audio book and a hard copy
01:01:34
Speaker
that brings you, that helps you the most. Well, this is coming out when? This is coming out, this comes out in August, wherever you buy it is fine. Okay.
01:01:45
Speaker
Okay. And you know what, like, I find that I always tell people, go to your local bookstore, but people just don't use their local bookstore and they use one certain entity. And it's fine. I don't, I'm never going to advocate for that. I like, without the local bookstore, like even if you go to your library and request that your library, that's great. Cause the more librarians see it, it helps so much. Cause librarians are amazing people.
01:02:10
Speaker
Well, I mean, very selfishly us being here in Philly. Yeah. If you hear order and have it shipped from Uncle Bobby's, that's one of our local independent black home bookstores here in Philly. So very easy way to get a hold of it. I'm going to look for the audio book when it comes out on August 1st as well. The one technical question that I wanted to ask you about the process of writing and rewriting,
01:02:36
Speaker
You identified that you did a lot of killing your darlings, I'm sure, as you rewrote. You identified also that there's this part of deciding how much of yourself to write into it and how much, and it sounds like from
01:02:51
Speaker
from the way that your editor pushed you to write more of yourself into it than what you would have otherwise. You identified also that there are elements of your lived experience that you're trying to be careful around. You did talk about some of those things as being traumatic. And if this is not a safe place to lean into, then fine, we'll move on. But
01:03:17
Speaker
what is the... At least for you, what is the process of trying to ride that... What feels like a fine line between figuring out how to put your lived experience on the page, put your life experience on the page to tell a better story while also protecting the inside
01:03:38
Speaker
done at the same time. Is that a balance? Do you like push a little hard and then ask forgiveness from yourself later? What does that look like for you? I think I came at the book in a way like I wanted to be completely separate, you know, because I in a way I knew it was based off of this one traumatic moment. And I knew that in my mind, I didn't even recognize it as a trauma. I just thought that this week we go through like
01:04:04
Speaker
you get attacked and racist attacks happen, you know? But do you equate it to trauma? No, it's just life. It's what we do. We fight back or we do this. It's one of those things like when you're a writer, like, is this memoir or is this fiction? And then you have to separate that. So that was the first thing. It's like, well, this isn't memoir. This is modern day and this is a different, the character is different.
01:04:28
Speaker
Yeah. Like even though the characters from Brooklyn is Caribbean parents, so many differences from Gil and myself. And for me to force my life onto Gil would be
01:04:41
Speaker
a discredit to what Gill is going through. Yeah, there's emotional moments that we definitely connect on, but we're totally different people. But it's just like, that's the thing about connecting with a character and finding the humanity in the character. And it's just like, the hard thing for me was just, at first, I wasn't giving Gill enough voice. This is young adult fiction, and I wasn't giving him enough
01:05:05
Speaker
drive and enough push because he was very much an observer, which is what I was. You know, I was I was very much I'd stay in the background and sometimes make it play out and imagine it one way. But that's not who Gil is at the times. You know, he does push things and he gets angrier and he feels this level of pressure from his parents that they don't necessarily put on him on purpose. But he feels that because he's a child of immigrants and he's dealing with like these kind of things at home and, you know,
01:05:34
Speaker
He has a grandma who totally loves him. And like for me in writing the grandma character, which is one of my favorite characters. And I think I hope everyone loves her. I mean, she's a strong point in the book, but she's like almost like every woman role model in my life. You know, it's like, yeah.
01:05:54
Speaker
put into her, as well as my grandma's, you know, like the ferocity that she has and the way women tend to always have our backs. And it's like, do you have theirs? You know, it's like that kind of dichotomy is in there for Gil to, hopefully I did everything justice, you know, on the page. But I think that that was it, you know, it's like, there's definitely parts of me in there. Like when I see the grandma, it's just like, I definitely see my maternal grandma in there. When I see, think about the way she dresses and wants to party.
01:06:23
Speaker
You know, that's grandma Clarice right there. You know, the way she's ready to fight, that's like there's so many other people in there who have fought for me in certain ways. And it's like, have I just given them justice? You know, I have a good friend Rashida Sheeds, and
Hopes for Trust and Solidarity in the Future
01:06:40
Speaker
she always would call in and check on me. And it's like that kind of energy is in there, how she always has your back, you know. So, so, so, so, yeah, I, I probably didn't answer your question. I'm still trying to figure all that out.
01:06:53
Speaker
But I think it's at one point, I kept Gil too far away from me. And then at one point, I had to be like, OK, there are parts of me and Gil. Let me make sure those parts are there and then let Gil move on his own. So last year, when I was doing one of the first big rewrites on it, when Stacey came back to me, she was just like, I see this character. I see this character. But you have to make sure they're standing on their own. And then with Gil, what is pushing him?
01:07:21
Speaker
I knew right away when she said it, it was just like, she's like, so there's something missing from her. I was like, I know what's missing. And she said, what? I said, me. She was like, you? And I was like, yeah. And then she read it again. And she was like, oh, this is good. And I was like, oh, man, was it not? And I just put that in there, you know, the pressure that you feel as a teenager dealing with this, like almost like
01:07:42
Speaker
It's that Maya Angelou moment. I quote Maya Angelou loosely in the book. But when she says the hope and dream of the slave, that kind of thing. I think sometimes as Black children or children of immigrants or children of people who have sacrificed for you,
01:08:03
Speaker
you feel that you have the burden to live up to. And it's like taking on that burden and how do I deal with that? But then you're caught up in everything that's going on at school. And it's just like now you're dealing with this burden and you have these people treating you a certain way at school and you want to have this fight. But you already started off the school with that other fight that you were trying to live up to these ambitions. And now these two things are kind of in conflict because
01:08:31
Speaker
If you live up to these ambitions, you don't get to fight. If you fight, you may hurt the ambitions. So then what do you do? And it's like, can I move through this strategically like Sun Tzu? And is that an actual approach to life? Can you approach life as a war? Can you approach your friend circle as if they're just soldiers and you're trying to like, and is this just about you? Is this just about your beef? And then all of a sudden this thing that you were trying to do for everybody else,
01:08:57
Speaker
Is it becoming just about you? And that's a lot of stuff for Gil to think about. And I wish I said it more like that. This answer is getting better. I can't wait for the next person to ask it and for it to get even better.
01:09:11
Speaker
Yeah. Don, I'm so grateful for the time that you spent with us today. We have just one final question to close us out. It's the same question that we ask everybody as we're coming to the end of our time. And it's what would you like the world to look like when you're done with it? I'd like it to be more trusting, more trusting of each other. And that word trust is such a
01:09:35
Speaker
broad word. But going back to the beginning of this thing, there was four people that I met or three people I met while on the strike that I absolutely trust. Because when you go through certain trials together, you just build a certain bonds up. And I want everyone to kind of take time to go through trials with other people, see what they're struggling with and go through it with them. Don't don't take over their trial. But like,
01:10:03
Speaker
you know, walk with them, like, just have their back. Be that person to give them water when they're fighting, you know? That's what I want. I want people to just sometimes, like, you don't have to be the lead in everything. And I'm not saying that you have to take a side, because we all, like, in this book, Gil is the lead, right? But in another book, Tammy's the lead, you know? Everyone is a lead in their own story.
01:10:26
Speaker
And I want people to just take the time to trust themselves, to trust their emotions and know that those emotions are real and do whatever you need to do to help yourself so that you could slowly build trust towards other people and letting that trust in and giving trust to other people.
01:10:43
Speaker
My thanks to my guest Don P. Hooper. You can learn more about how you can support striking writers and actors. You can follow Don on Instagram at the notes in the episode description. And most importantly, you can buy his books at our affiliate link at Bookshop.org to support Don, to support your local bookstore, and to support us too.
01:11:08
Speaker
Thank you so much for tuning in to Uncommon Good with Paulie Rees. This program is produced in southwest Philadelphia in the unceded neighborhood of the Black Bottom community and on the ancestral land of the Lenape Nation who remain here in the era of the Fourth Crow and who fight for official recognition by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to this day.
01:11:26
Speaker
You can find out more about the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania and how you can support the revitalization of their culture by going to Lenape-Nation.org. Our associate producers are Willa Jaffe and Kia Watkins. And a special thanks to patron mascot of this episode, Spot.
01:11:44
Speaker
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01:12:02
Speaker
We love questions and feedback. You can send us a DM on social media or an email at uncommongoodpod at gmail.com. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, wishing you every uncommon good to do your uncommon good to be the uncommon good.