Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 41—Jennifer Niesslein, the Full Grown Person behind Full Grown People
131 Plays8 years ago
Jennifer Niesslein, formerly a co-editor and co-founder of Brain, Child, and currently editor and founder of Full Grown People, joined me on Episode 41 to talk about the art of editing.
Recommended
Transcript
Jennifer's Editorial Journey
00:00:03
Speaker
Jennifer Nestline, formerly a co-editor and co-founder of Brain Child, and currently editor and founder of Full Grown People, joined me on episode 41 of the hashtag CNF podcast to talk about the art of editing.
00:00:22
Speaker
Her essays have appeared in Creative Nonfiction, The Brevity Blog, Virginia Quarterly, and The Nervous Breakdown. She's also the author of Practically Perfect in Every Way.
Why Editing Over Writing?
00:00:35
Speaker
Why wait any longer? Here's Jennifer Nestline.
00:00:46
Speaker
So when people ask you what you do, what do you tell them? It depends who they are, but I'll probably say I am an editor and a writer. And I spend most of my time editing, so that's kind of why I go in that order. Right, right. And which do you prefer?
00:01:13
Speaker
I don't know, I feel like they use different parts of my brain. I only write when I have something that I really need to figure out. And luckily I have a fairly charmed life. So there's not a lot of stuff I've had to figure out for myself. Yeah, I like editing. I like being, that feels more, you know, like I'm part of a community where writing can feel pretty isolating.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, because the editing process, especially if the writer and the editor are both enrolled in the same journey, so to speak, it's a much more collaborative experience. And you do have more of that, a little back and forth, more of a partnership. Whereas you're saying the writing can be oftentimes feel like you're just shouting into a canyon and no one's listening. And yeah, it is very isolating. Yeah.
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's I always feel like it's a collaboration with writers and editors sort of in service to the reader. And so I feel like my job is to get the essay to it's as close as possible to its platonic ideal.
Editing Process Insights
00:02:26
Speaker
And when you receive work for full grown people or when you were working with Brain Child, how close is that initial submission to what eventually gets published? It depends on the writer. I edit very carefully. So sometimes all it needs is a good line edit, sometimes
00:02:55
Speaker
there is more developmental editing that goes on. Though I think I'm really at a point now where I'm not getting the submissions that need the developmental stuff as much. Right, so you're getting, as you've sort of grown the net which that you're able to sort of capture some of these people there, at least you're getting people that have maybe a more fleshed out idea.
00:03:25
Speaker
Right, and more experience. Though I have been blown away by getting something and then I find out later that this is the writer's first publication. I'm like, get out, no way. Yeah, what's that like for you to just see something that there's so much sort of inexperience behind it but comes across as very seasoned? It's great.
00:03:55
Speaker
It feels like to me that this writer has been toiling away, but just has recently discovered the confidence to put themselves out there.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, when I've spoken with the novelist Jonathan Evison, this is a few years ago, and he's had a good run of some best-selling novels like the Revise Fundamentals of Caregiving and West of Here. And All About Lulu was his quote-unquote debut novel.
00:04:26
Speaker
I was talking to him about that. He's like, well, you know, I wrote nine novels before that that are buried in my backyard that I won't let anybody see. But yet the tenth one is the quote unquote debut. So you get a sense that maybe somebody is putting out maybe a first publication, but like you said, they've been really honing, honing a voice and honing a craft for years. Oh, yeah, definitely.
The Birth of Brain Child
00:04:54
Speaker
So backing up a little bit, talk a little bit about Brain Child and founding that and the machinations and the mechanics of wanting to bring something of that nature of your own vision to the page or to the web. It was a print magazine. I founded it with my friend Stephanie Wilkinson.
00:05:23
Speaker
who was a much more experienced journalist and editor than I was at the time. And I, and what year is that? Just to put it on the timeline. Uh, we came up with the idea in 1999 and our first issue came out in March of 2000. Okay. So, uh, yeah, we, I had had experience. Um, my only experience actually was working at a local,
00:05:52
Speaker
news weekly, called Seabel weekly. And I was lucky enough, it was going through some big growth at the time. So I started out as an intern. And when I left, I, I was the managing editor, and it was just pure luck that I was with them at this time of extreme growth. So I got to know all of the
00:06:22
Speaker
ins and outs of, like, back then, you know, the layout, we'd have called them mechanicals. There were actual paper paste-ups. And, you know, all the ins and outs of it. I got to learn. Stephanie, at that time, was in grad school, and she was writing the book column for Seville Weekly, and that's how we met. And so we both had experience.
00:06:51
Speaker
But it was really just sort of like, hey, let's, let's put on a show. So we bought a book literally called how to run a successful, um, magazine or newsletter. And it was a very good book actually. Um, and, and we just figured it out and people are generous with their advice. I say other publishers and editors, especially on that level.
00:07:20
Speaker
Oh yeah, so what itch was that scratching that you guys wanted to start that? Well, at the time there weren't a lot of publications cured, literary publications, cured about motherhood. And we wanted to take on this, you know, this stupid idea that
00:07:48
Speaker
Motherhood is just, you know, the soft focused thing and all mothers want, you know, as a kicky new hairdo or, you know, tips from experts who don't actually know your child. We wanted the voice of mothers in the publication. Um, so lawn at the time had a column called mothers who think, and they were successful, but they, you know, they could only publish so many things. And so, um,
00:08:17
Speaker
We refined our vision instead of just essays. We had essays and features, some news, a debate column, a humor column, fiction. And we had a good long run of it for, when did we sell it? 2012, I think. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, 13 years from idea to selling. Right.
00:08:47
Speaker
At that time, my baby, when we started it was when we came up with the idea was five months old and he was a teenager when we sold it. So, um, I think I, I grew out of it both personally and professionally. Um, but it was weird because it was like selling my identity, right? You know, cause I had wrapped up both.
00:09:15
Speaker
personal stuff and my professional stuff in this one one big blob yeah yeah like talk about a really just like rich time of your life just as as a person and and a mother and then it's also like just almost seamlessly braided into this
00:09:37
Speaker
into this passion project that turned into something that was so much more. And then, yeah, just to see it end like
Transition to Full Grown People
00:09:46
Speaker
that. What was the last year or two and then maybe when it finally ended, what was that like for you? In some ways, I don't know. I really, really loved the community surrounding Brainchild. And I knew I was going to miss that.
00:10:07
Speaker
Um, and I did miss it. I, I sorta, after, after we sold it, I tried to do freelancing for about a year and, you know, just sorta felt like I was flailing a little bit, you know? Yeah. You're not alone there. Yeah. So I, um, there was a time in my life where I noticed a lot of people around me were going through different
00:10:38
Speaker
different sort of transitions. So my, my sister's son was off to college. So she and her husband were trying to figure out, you know, what the next chapter of their lives were. Some of my friends were switching careers. Some of them were getting divorced or remarried or just entering the, the dating scene after not being in it for a long time.
00:11:07
Speaker
Um, some people were dealing with aging parents. And so as my, as I tend to do, I took my personal crisis and made a publication out of it. And that's how full grown people happened. And how much time between the selling of brainchild until you start full grown people? About a year, about a year.
00:11:33
Speaker
So talk about a period of like he's a transition, but like a total upheaval in a lot of sense, like talk of just so much change going on around you and everyone you knew. Yeah. And yeah, I think it tends to happen sort of in the thick of life, but it can happen anytime.
00:11:57
Speaker
So what what was the moment that you knew you wanted to be like an editor or a writer?
From Aspiring Writer to Editor
00:12:06
Speaker
I wanted to be a writer since I could read and I wanted to make the magic happen because I think, you know, before I was an editor or a writer, I'm always a reader first.
00:12:23
Speaker
But then I wanted to be an editor when I realized how difficult it is to make money as a writer. Right. Right. And now I'm realizing how difficult it is to make it as an editor as well. But that's a different story. So yeah, and I didn't I think as I've gotten older, I've embraced more of the community thing. I'm I'm still fine with
00:12:53
Speaker
sort of being alone, I think, but I like being part of something bigger. And I like being a champion of other writers because I feel like, you know, it comes around and you never know who's. I don't know. It's a good feeling.
00:13:11
Speaker
That's all. And with that need or the want to be alone and to sort of recede and then sort of commute back in, is that what being an editor of something like Fullgrown People is like? That you can commute back and forth between the two poles and the two ideals that you're talking about.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, it's one toe in each world, and that's nice. I remember when I was writing my book, I was at the end of it, and my husband and son were down in Florida visiting my in-laws. And I was going through my editor's last notes on it. And the book was a memoir.
00:14:10
Speaker
And so I had to call my neighbor over. I'm like, I'm sick of thinking about me, editing about me, writing about me. Come over and tell me something about yourself because I'm done with me for now.
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's what's kind of great about writing nonfiction, whether it's more journalistic or even some form of essay, is that if you're sick of yourself or if you're someone who subscribes to writer's block, which I'm not, you just go out and talk to people.
00:14:45
Speaker
And there are so many, there are just endless stories that, geez, look at this American life and the run they've been on for 20 years or more. Oh, yeah. The stories are out there. You just have to, you have to just tune your antenna to a different frequency and open up your curiosity and there's no shortage of stories. Yeah. And I'm a big fan of doing a lot of research. I love the kind of work that combines research and personal. Yeah.
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah, I just spoke with Philip Girard, who just had a, his book came out, The Art of Creative Research, and it's such a great toolbox of how to curate information from all different corners of the world, archives, internet, and just, you know, put a vest on with camera and recorder, notebook, pencils, all the, you know, it just, it's got this real gritty feel. You're just gonna go out there and just
00:15:45
Speaker
comb the world for information and then come back and try to make sense of it. It's just such a cool book and it just fires you up to get out there and do the thing. Oh, I'll have to check that out.
00:15:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good one. I spoke with He's episode 38, too. We had a long conversation about research and all that. I think you'd probably dig it, seeing as you like the nature of going out into the world, doing that research, but also braiding it with something personal. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think you'd probably dig it.
00:16:17
Speaker
And when you were little and you always wanted to be a writer, you said you were a reader first. So what were some of those formative books for you that made you want to do the thing that was inspiring you as a girl and young woman? Well, I couldn't get enough of Nancy Drew. I'm sure you've heard this from all sorts of writers who are women. And Judy Bloom, I think
00:16:46
Speaker
I think knowing that her, just her voice, I think, captivated me. You know, the tales of a fourth grade nothing and super fudge. I love stuff that is funny. You know, funny. I love funny. Yeah, that comes across in your writing, too. You have like a real distinctive voice that definitely, you can tell you're having fun. Yeah.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's something that I think is, why do it if not, you know? Well, I contradict myself. So yeah, so Judy Bloom, were there any other titles as you were getting older? How did your tastes change as you were maturing? Well, I remember in high school,
00:17:45
Speaker
you know, most of high school you have to do the canon. So you get the Scarlet Letter and Shakespeare and all that stuff. And then my senior year, my teacher Ruth Kuiper had us read The Color Purple. And I remember being blown away like, we're allowed to write these kind of books. And that's another, you know, great voice driven book with a great story.
Influences and Inspirations
00:18:15
Speaker
So yeah, that was very eye-opening for me. I would say, like, Catcher in the Rye was like that for me. When I was 16 and read that, that was the first book that was assigned to me in high school that I actually read, because it's the only way to get me to not
00:18:35
Speaker
If you want to be not to read something, just assign it to me, and that was the perfect way. But I picked that up, and from the opening words, it's like, oh man, there are just some books like that that speak to you and show you another way. It's really cool. I'm always grateful to Mrs. Geiper for that.
00:18:55
Speaker
Yeah. And was she someone who not only she turned you on to a different way of writing or a different way of reading, did she, was she someone who also saw something in your writing and helped encourage you that way? She did. Yeah. She's, um, and she continues to be a lovely woman. I'm friends with her on Facebook and, um, but you know, my, my parents, my mother especially has always been
00:19:26
Speaker
a huge supporter of mine and giving me confidence. And, you know, I'm just lucky to be as confident as I am.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, how important are those kind of mentors to you? In those dark moments, and there are several when you're sort of in the cave, what has it been like to have these kind of people in your corner, like in the boxer's corner, massaging your shoulders and giving you the towel to wipe off your brow before sending you back out into the ring? It's been wonderful. I feel like I have two sorts of
00:20:08
Speaker
of cheerleaders, I guess I could say. One is, you know, my mom, my sisters, they're always there sort of unconditionally loving what I do. But I think as I've gotten older, I've also had people like my former business partner and friend, Stephanie, who would find a way to
00:20:38
Speaker
say, okay, you got to start this over. This isn't working. And I feel like that's important too, because you don't want to put something out into the world that you're going to be later embarrassed of. And so she's still in some ways my barometer. Like what would Stephanie think of this? Is she in a lot of ways your ideal reader? Yeah, I would say so.
00:21:08
Speaker
And when you embark on a project, I kind of have an ideal reader of mine too, and it's just a buddy of mine from high school. And when I write, I'm like, all right, is Pete gonna, what's he gonna think of this? And I kind of just write to, basically what I find entertaining, what entertains me and keeps me going, because if I can't stay interested in the writing, there's no way in hell a reader is.
00:21:32
Speaker
Right and and it like if I can if I can sell him on it. He's also the smartest person I know and so it's I Always have that in mind So do you just have that one like Stephanie in mind? Usually when you're crafting something and you're like alright if I if I can sell her I know I'm I know I'm going down the right road here Right. She's like my quality control in a way, too. Yeah, you know yeah
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah, like in the office. She's your Creed Bratton. I don't know if you watch the office at all. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking my husband is actually a quality assurance engineer. So I feel like he's sort of like the moral center of his company. Okay. And so Stephanie is that in my head at least. That's great. That's a
00:22:26
Speaker
And what makes for a good editor? Well, you probably know this. Hattie Fletcher of Creative Nonfiction is a fabulous editor. And I wish she could edit everything I write. I think a good editor is somebody who will tell you
00:22:56
Speaker
When something is not working, um, I think editors who are afraid to talk to writers are not maybe, maybe at the beginning of their careers. I think if you hold, I don't know, I feel like a writer, it should be a collaborator, really, you know, somebody who doesn't want to change your voice, but who can also point out, okay, sometimes this trip me up or, you know,
00:23:25
Speaker
but you're taking this whole section is taking me in a weird direction.
00:23:31
Speaker
And I think what makes a good editor on is it, despite those little, those hiccups and the, and the pros, they still see ultimately what has merit and value buried and nestled inside that. So they don't just judge it on the work that needs to be done. They're like, Oh, there's something, there's something good here, but we just kind of have to mine it a bit. Right.
00:24:00
Speaker
I mean, I feel like a good editor makes you feel like they're your advocate. How long did it, did it take you a while? Like, how did you forge that advocacy and that balance and the collaborative process as, as an editor and someone who was a writer and then, and now someone who's like primarily editor, if I, and like, how did you come to that balance yourself?
Learning Assertiveness in Editing
00:24:30
Speaker
Um, I watched Stephanie a lot and I just cause every draft would go through me first and then her and she'd get everything that I didn't get. And after a while I learned how to anticipate like, you know, why am I, why am I being so ginger with us? And it's not doing anybody any favors, especially the reader who's the most important part of this old shebang.
00:24:58
Speaker
So, you know, it's just experience. I think working with writers to good writers has made me both a better editor and a better writer because when you're editing, you read closely and you can, you can sort of pull apart why something works. And then you can apply that to your own writing. You can, you know, you can figure it out for,
00:25:25
Speaker
It makes it more apparent when you see something that is almost working and you have the tools to massage it into place so it clicks.
00:25:37
Speaker
What is your process like when you get a piece of writing that you've accepted and you're like, all right, now I'm gonna dive in and start. Do you read it through, do you go through fast and then you go through in first gear, just almost line by line? Or what is that process like for you? How long does that take and just what does that look like for you? Well, it depends on
00:26:06
Speaker
The last time I read it, sometimes I'll, um, you know, get an essay and run it the next week. And sometimes it'll sit in my files for a month or two. So, you know, it just depends last time I read it. Um, I want to familiarize myself with it. So, you know, just to get down the foreshadowing or whatever that's going on. Yeah. And then I, I go through very slowly. And then, uh, once I do that once I'll go through again.
00:26:37
Speaker
just to make sure all my edits match each other in a way. Then I send it off to the writer and I say, please don't use track changes because it drives me insane. Put your feedback in and then we'll come up with a solid draft and I'll put a preview on the site for them to see. I feel like it's probably the standard way of
00:27:08
Speaker
most editors work yet that i wonder that i'm not a a particularly strong editor yet i what if i'm getting notes for for people some somebody wants to read something in sometimes the almost feel like you're what's the right way to do it ladies should you be reading it really
00:27:29
Speaker
slow or What what's worth picking out and like how do you? How do you forge like really good quality? Feedback in that sense that's valuable to the writer, but sometimes you you wonder if you're
00:27:45
Speaker
you know, missing the mark or whatever, if they even, you know, sort of care what you're what you're saying. Like if that makes sense to you, because you're kind of using your own filter of what you think sounds good. And then, you know, they kind of look at you like, oh, well, thanks, but no, thanks. Well, I think feedback is a different thing because, you know, if you're going through for a friend,
00:28:13
Speaker
It feels nitpicky to say like, you know, make this hyphen into an M dash, that sort of thing. But when you edit, you know.
00:28:26
Speaker
it's a different story. Yeah. What's the, is there, can you articulate what the difference is in your mind between say like editing and feedback and how they may be a side of the same coin or maybe they're completely different. How would you define the two? Well, I think the stakes are higher in editing than in giving feedback because when whatever I put up, my name is on the,
00:28:56
Speaker
on the site. And if it looks sloppy, that's on me. And it's also on the writer. So we both have steak in this coming out as best as it possibly can. For feedback, you're doing a favor, basically. So the stakes aren't as high. You're looking out for your friend, but if
00:29:25
Speaker
If something comes across as screwy, then it's on them. You have not, you know.
00:29:34
Speaker
Right. As an editor and as someone who reads untold hundreds of submissions a year, what's your biggest turnoff as a reader preliminarily and then another set of turnoffs?
Importance of Relevant Submissions
00:29:52
Speaker
Like say once you're working with the writer, what's something else that just really gets in your craw? Well, my biggest turnoff is
00:30:02
Speaker
sending me work that has absolutely nothing to do with the website. Proving that no one's read the work. Right. I mean, it's a waste of my time. And that's pretty obvious to you right away, I imagine. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.
00:30:29
Speaker
It's called full grown people. So, you know, if you send me a story about your childhood exclusively, then you don't, you haven't read it. You haven't read the site. Um, working with the writer, I guess I don't have any huge pet peeves because I think as far as I can remember, I've always been able to work stuff out. Um, yeah.
00:30:59
Speaker
I mean that's that's really yeah I don't know I consider myself a reasonable person I think most writers are yeah and the ones that aren't are just they're probably inexperienced right so I don't know I mean I I always think if if worse comes to worse we just part ways and it will have wasted my time but it's
00:31:29
Speaker
It's not brain surgery. Right. And the piece that you wrote for Jane Friedman's website, I've got a paragraph here I'll just read and then I'll just ask you about it. This is under the little subhead.
00:31:48
Speaker
I try to be easy to work with." And you're right, it's pretty much cliche at this point that it's only the writers most in need of a good edit who are the most resistant to one, but it's true. An actual reply I received after emailing a round of edits, it says, quote, psi, sometimes I wish I were a sculptor so when I finish my masterpiece, it's done, end quote.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yes, and sometimes I wish I were in a time machine so I could snatch that acceptance letter back, but that's neither here nor there. And so that seems like an element where someone was kind of difficult and not resistant to what you were trying to do, which is trying to improve the work. So that's got to just really twist in your side. Yeah, I mean, that was way back.
00:32:39
Speaker
It was like four years ago. Okay. Well, when I was with brain child, I wrote this, um, I wrote that. I think right around the time we sold or no, right after we sold brain child, but, um, yeah, that
Satisfaction in Impactful Edits
00:32:54
Speaker
it did, it irritated me, but it, but it's one of those things, you know, you can just sort of after a while it becomes like, all right, well you're being difficult. I'm not.
00:33:09
Speaker
You bring the drama that's on you. There's the poll quote. You bring the drama, it's on you. So what is the most satisfying part for you about the editing process? I think knowing that somebody out there is going to really need this essay.
00:33:38
Speaker
that they're reading. Something about it will click for them. And that's really, really gratifying. And what's more satisfying for you in a sense? Is it a big editing win or a big writing win? And you can define the win in any way you want, but what feels better for you? Well, obviously, it feels better for my ego for the writing win.
00:34:10
Speaker
I think I can look at, you know, my pieces of writing individually, but with my editing I have to look over sort of the course of my career. So it's sort of short term gain versus long term. And, you know, so far I don't think my writing career is maybe, I'm not sure that it's greater than the sum of its parts.
00:34:40
Speaker
But I think my editing is. When you were sort of forging early stages of your vocation, looking back on that now, are you surprised that you're on the spectrum or the scale of writing and editing, that it's tipped more in favor of the editing? Is that something that caught you off guard? Yeah, it has, actually.
00:35:11
Speaker
I've made peace with it now, but I think every writer has this secret dream that they're going to be the special one, that they're going to be plucked by somebody important and become the darling of everyone. Well, that really happens and I'm okay with that. And I think part of it is the age I am. I'm Gen X and I think my generation has
00:35:40
Speaker
learned that we can't we can't rely on on other people. And I think having sort of growing up with working class ethics, I think that also plays into it is that nobody owes you anything and nobody's going to do you any favors. And so I feel good about having made my own way. And I'm not saying I did it all by myself, but I
00:36:10
Speaker
I think I've done it mostly on my terms. How long did it take you to come to peace with that idea that you had of being like this, one of those anointed typewriters, to being a working editor and writer, which doesn't sound as glamorous, but it's still grounded in the craft you love. So how long did it take you to come to that piece?
00:36:40
Speaker
I would say probably after my book came out, I wrote a book that was published by Putnam in 2007. I originally thought it was going to be a big deal. Plans changed at the publishing house. It was well-liked. I'm not going to say critically acclaimed, but it was well-liked. Those sales weren't
00:37:11
Speaker
that spectacular. I was disappointed for a while. And I thought, I saw everything else in my life is fine too. I still can write. I don't know. And then I realized I was relying on somebody else to make me, give me this platform when I can do it myself. And when I do it myself, I do it better.
00:37:40
Speaker
When you look back, say 20 years ago, who's the, who's the Jennifer Nest line you see? I don't know. Somebody who, who has no idea what's in store for her. You know? Is there anything, is there any advice you would give to that 25 year old? No.
00:38:10
Speaker
I think everything that happened, no, I guess I wouldn't.
00:38:17
Speaker
When you were, say, 25, even 30, what did success look like to you as a writer or editor then versus now? What a successful life and career in this vocation looks like now.
Evolving Views on Success
00:38:36
Speaker
That changes over the years. So what did that look like early and what does that look like now? When we started Brainchild, we didn't pay ourselves at first.
00:38:45
Speaker
So it was very important for me to start making money from this. The world was a different place then. People had magazine launch parties, you know, big extravagant ones where they'd have party planners. So it seemed feasible at the time that a magazine could provide a good living. I think I've had to change my expectations
00:39:16
Speaker
as the industry has changed. But we did, we made decent livings for many years, Steph and I did, and we could play employees. Print, I would not go into print now, and that's why I didn't. So I think it's not as much tied to money in my head now, but I say that
00:39:43
Speaker
with the privilege of not having to worry about money. So it's sort of a false thing to say, like, oh, well, money has nothing to do with success. Well, that's fine if your husband works and makes enough money to get all the bills and health insurance. So I'm well aware of the privilege that I have
00:40:13
Speaker
And I like to think by my editing work that I'm using it for good by publishing voices that might not otherwise be published.
00:40:25
Speaker
I don't know. And changing gears just a little bit, when you're in the throes of writing an essay or even if you're just like your neck deep and trying to get an issue out, what does your sort of your daily routine look like from when you, right from when you wake up to how you start putting things in motion to win the day?
Non-linear Writing Process
00:40:55
Speaker
I am not a morning person at all. I am sitting here in my bathroom. So, you know, I do my best work in the late afternoon. And then when I get going, I'll just keep going until I start to do damage to the work. And then I'll pick it up the next day.
00:41:23
Speaker
I sort of work in bursts. I used to do this thing where, you know, like you're supposed to do, you know, button chair, blah, blah, blah. But I've been writing long enough that I have faith that if I'm not feeling it, it's gonna come to me at some point. I'm just, I feel like there's somewhere in my head that is always, if I'm working on an essay,
00:41:53
Speaker
Even if I'm not consciously thinking about it, I'm still trying to figure it out. I do a lot of good thinking in the shower. So when I get out, I'll come down and be like, okay, this has to be the structure and bubble. So yeah, and then I'll finish a draft. I'll sit on it for a little bit to make sure my love for it
00:42:22
Speaker
sort of cools down and I can look at it with more objective eyes and yeah I try and find a home for it. Do you incorporate, do you go for long walks at all and use that kind of a meditative practice to unplug but you know the computer is still working in the background doing those kind of activities? Not long walks so much as sometimes I will
00:42:53
Speaker
sit down and just sort of stare off into space, and that's the thing that, you know, they'd know by now, but my husband and son are like, are you all right? Are you okay? Like, I'm thinking, I'm writing.
00:43:09
Speaker
Yeah, you open up one of your recent essays with that little anecdote. It's the one that you referenced the joy of writing and that you look like you're just pensive and to the outside you might actually look angry or upset, but no, I'm in the process right now.
00:43:33
Speaker
You used an interesting word to do like doing damage to the work, getting some damage done. And as you're generating, you're also kind of breaking something down too. What does that look like to you when you reach that degree of flow, which is hard to get, but once you're there, it's like running downhill. So like when you're in that damage zone, what's that like for you?
00:44:02
Speaker
Well, actually I was, I was meaning damage. Like I was literally damaging it like by, by, you know, if every other sentences add quality here, that means, you know, it's time to stop. But yeah, when I, when I really get into it, um, yeah, it, you know, you can look up and not realize the time, time passed. Um, but I can only really sustain that for me for probably three hours.
00:44:32
Speaker
Um, before it's, it starts, I get too drained. So, um, yeah, but it's a great feeling. It's, I imagine, you know, it's, it's akin to a runner's high, even though there's no actual, you know, chemicals involved. Yeah. Is, um, what, uh, what?
00:44:59
Speaker
Kind of a two-part, I'll ask the first part, what is some bad advice about writing you hear Bandied about? I don't know if there is bad advice, but there's definitely advice that just isn't gonna work for you. Like, I've never been a butt in the seat writer. I'm not sure, because I don't know how other people do it, so I'm not sure what is bad advice.
00:45:30
Speaker
I don't understand the anger about adverbs. That's something that doesn't make sense to me. I don't know. I mean, I think, yeah. I know advice that doesn't work for me is, you know, write every day, write early in the morning.
00:45:54
Speaker
to that to that point you're making right now on my just heard uh... a great interview uh... with Cheryl straight where it she's a she calls herself a binge writer like she she's not the person who writes every day and she's not ashamed of that either like sometimes if you're not generating words like every single day you like your shamed into not being a writer
00:46:20
Speaker
And she's like, sometimes I'll go a whole week without doing it, but then I'll write for 10 hours in one day or something. In that sense, am I no lesser writer because I go through these binges and so forth. So I think you're speaking right to that point, that it comes in
00:46:41
Speaker
there are many different shades of what it means to write and to generate work. And so you just have to come to your own acceptance and understanding of who you are as an artist to see what works for you. Right. And I think there are people who have to do much more revision than I generally do on my own work because they're thinking about word count, whereas I'm thinking about
00:47:10
Speaker
You know, I think it might be the editor in me coming out a bit, but I'll write a paragraph and then I'll work on that paragraph. And so it's, by the time I get to the end, the top is really pretty polished. And so that's, that's just how I work, but I understand people who, you know, write 2000 words a day. They got their 2000 and when it's all done, they'll go through and.
00:47:36
Speaker
and get in revision mode, but I'm in the write and revise mode all the time. Do you find as someone who's such a strong editor and writer that it's tough to divorce the two? Do you get stuck sometimes writing because the editor software is running at the same time? Yeah, a little bit. I can let go of it, and once I get into the flow, but there's still always
00:48:05
Speaker
a part of me that thinks I can't just let this be a poor quality sentence and move on to the next sentence. I have to like, you know, stick the landing on this.
00:48:18
Speaker
that's uh... yeah that's that's the value that's uh... that's a real that's a real fine fine balance cuz sometimes you that you know people who call themselves perfectionists have this problem something you gotta get beyond that to just like to get the work down and get it get it done and then work back and try to try to hone it so it's like you're that's uh... that's gotta be a challenge something like almost like editing as you're writing cuz that's uh... i suspect that you must that must be a real tough balance yeah it's a
00:48:48
Speaker
It is a balance because I know I will have to go back and revise somehow. And it doesn't have to be a perfect sentence, but it has to. But it has to be perfect enough that I can move on to the next one. Um, because if the rhythm, you know, writing is so much of writing is rhythm. And so if the rhythm doesn't make sense, then
00:49:18
Speaker
It just starts falling apart. Right. It's kind of like music in that sense. If you're just noodling on the guitar and you're trying to play a certain... If the first measure doesn't sound good, you can't move on to the next one because there's no connective tissue. Right. Right.
00:49:39
Speaker
Where are you these days with full grown people? What's the internal feeling with what you're doing at this latest juncture and the great work you're doing there? How does that feel right now? Where are you at? Well, literally where I'm at is I have to jump back in because I've been out of town and then in town my grandma died and so I've been
00:50:08
Speaker
When she was still alive, I was going up to hospice to see her. And then after she died, I come from a close-knit family. And so we were all comforting each other. And so I've been out of full-grown people for a little bit. And I need to get back in. But I think just going forward, I'm excited about the stuff I have in the Hawker already. And I'm looking forward to reading more submissions.
00:50:39
Speaker
I guess one thing that I've been I've been thinking about a lot lately is inclusivity in work. And I'm pleased to say that I think that I've that full grown people is pretty inclusive in terms of race and ability and orientation and
00:51:09
Speaker
class. So that's something I'm very proud of. Oh, go on. Oh, no. Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, if people want to support and submit to full grown people, what can give those writers, say, a leg up if they want to be published under your banner? The quality of writing is
00:51:37
Speaker
always something I'm looking at, but I think, um, I was on a, I was supposed to be on a panel recently, um, at AWP with, um, the panel was called what writers of color want white editors to know. And in preparation for this, um, me and my fellow panelists, um, did a lot of, you know, research and email conversations, um, and
00:52:08
Speaker
One of the things I took away from it is that if you look at a publication, if you look at, say, maybe a bigger publication than mine, the masthead, and you don't see any people, say you see all white people, think, well, is this publication truly looking for my work? So it was a very instructive and wonderful experience to be a part of.
00:52:38
Speaker
Um, I don't know. I just made a greater effort to, to be more inclusive because, you know, writing essays, that's sometimes you're like sending your tenderest workout to a stranger. Right. And if you think they're going to just reject it or treat it as a token, um, why would you send it there to begin with?
00:53:08
Speaker
That's, I don't know, that's, that's sort of a submission of, well, not submission, sub hyphen mission of, uh, a full grain people these days. That's great. All right. And lastly, Jennifer, where can people find you online and find you if they want to familiarize your film, familiarize themselves more with your work? Um, Jennifer, nestline.com.
00:53:37
Speaker
you can follow me on Facebook. I have a Twitter account, but I'm a terrible tweeter. So, um, you know, you're not going to learn anything there. Um, and if you want to sign up for full grown people, I write little intros for every essay that comes out. Um, and so if you like my writing, that's a little bit of it. If you don't like my writing, you can just sort of,
00:54:05
Speaker
slowly inoculate yourself against me by receiving these emails. Fantastic. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for carving out some time of your morning and talking shop here. This was a lot of fun for me. Oh, me too. Yeah. So thanks so much. And yeah, we'll be in touch for sure. OK. Thanks, Brandon. You got it. Take care. All right. Bye-bye. Bye.