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The Truth Of The Matter is - Episode: 139 Special Guests - Paul Granger and Terrance Mcullen
36 Plays9 months ago
The truth of the matter is podcast is all about providing an honest, contextual, historicized, Philosophical and Psychological view of the Bible through the use of Hermeneutics, while sharing some personal experiences from myself, Daniel and on occasion our special guest. This week we have two guests. Paul Granger who has a podcast called: where did you see God? And Terrance Mcullen who has a podcast called: what's the value? Both of these gentlemen are good friends of mind and thought it would be an honor to have both of them in to discuss the purpose of New Year's resolutions, the importance of friendships, the definition of wisdom, the definition of love, how we could measure change and the meaning and purpose of suffering. I hope that this episode is a blessing to whoever decided to press play.
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Transcript
Introduction of Podcast and Guests
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to a special edition of the Truth of the Matter is podcast. The first of its kind in 2023. I'm your host, Jonathan. I'm here with our special guests, but before we introduce and welcome them in appropriately, let's begin by recognizing and appreciating while we're new and consistent listeners. We think you're in advance for continuing to press play at your own convenience.
Philosophical and Psychological Views on the Bible
00:00:27
Speaker
Now, if this is your first time listening, we want you to know that the Truth of the Matters podcast is all about providing an honest, contextual, hystereas, philosophical, and psychological view of the Bible, due to the use of hermeneux ex-wife sharing, some personal experiences with myself, Daniel, and a guest when we invite them in. We believe in reading God's Word through these different lenses and applying to everyday life. Now, normally when I mention that it's a special guest, the Truth of the Matters podcast, I'm speaking of the inclusion of a guest.
00:00:55
Speaker
However, what makes this a special edition? As it's the first of its kind, I have two guests. One you will be familiar with and one I know, but you do not know. We share some things in common, such as the desire to see life through a philosophical lens. We both appreciate great conversation and have an ability to have them respectfully, even though we may not agree.
Guest Introductions and Their Podcast Descriptions
00:01:16
Speaker
So on that note, I welcome in our guests, men I respect dearly, Paul Granger,
00:01:20
Speaker
which is he has a podcast called Where Did You See God and Terrace McMullen from What's The Value podcast. How are you both doing to the gentlemen? Doing great. Doing great. Doing good. All right. So I've gotten to know both these men through conversation. I believe both these men are genuine and authentic when it comes to their point of views. Now, before we dive into our dialogue today, could you tell our audience a little bit about your podcast and where they can find you and listen? Question first, Paul.
00:01:50
Speaker
You go for it, Terry. I got to drink some water. Yes, you said it, John. My podcast is What's the Value podcast? It's pretty straightforward, pretty simple. I ask people what's the value that's most important to them. And we just have a conversation about it, try and understand it, ask questions, explore it. It gets philosophical, but I think that's how we learn. I think that's how we grow. So what's the value podcast on Spotify, Apple, all those places you'll find it. OK, Paul, I know my audience knows you, but tell them about your podcast.
00:02:19
Speaker
Well, I got the pleasure of listening to What's the Value Today. It's a great podcast, Terry. I appreciate the environment that you created there.
00:02:27
Speaker
Um, and you know, I, with, where did you see God? I want to create a similar environment where it's a safe, accessible space to just process together. Um, you know, there are a lot of hard questions that people have about God, about life, about the church, about Christianity. And so the where did you see God podcast exists to be that an authentic conversation, uh, just to process these hard questions that sometimes might not have answers.
00:02:52
Speaker
All right.
Prayer and Setting Discussion Tone
00:02:53
Speaker
So on the truth of the matters podcast, before we get started with any type of dialogue, we believe praying is the first and foremost thing that we do. And in the end, we will also pray. So if you're listening in your mind, close your eyes by as whatever you like to do. So heavenly father, Lord, in the name of Jesus, we thank you for this opportunity that you have given us to have conversation with people from different backgrounds, beliefs, ideologies. Lord, I believe there is nothing wrong with speaking with people that you agree with and disagree with.
00:03:21
Speaker
But in honor of you, Lord, the goal is not to be judgmental, but in fact, it's to be respectful. Lord, you told us that if we ask anything in your name, you would do it. The hope that we have in you should always be to express our relationship with you with others, gently and respectfully. We get that out of 1 Peter 3, 15. If possible, as far as it depends on you, we should desire to live at peace with everyone. Lord, you told us that.
00:03:48
Speaker
Romans 12, 18. Let our conversation be gracious, seasonal sorts, attractive, so that we may have the right response for everyone. Colossians 4, 6. So Lord, the goal here is to have healthy conversation with Paul and Terrence about life, about perspectives, about the world. I pray that we can learn from one another and leave with a positive outlook. So Lord, I say these things in Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
Biblical Passage and Philosophical Dialogue
00:04:13
Speaker
So trying to, trying to, you know, grasp how we can go about this. There was a passage that hit me that kind of allowed me to tap into how I view the world through a biblical lens, but also how I view the world through a philosophical lens. So if Paul, you want to join us, it's okay in regards to the passage I'm going to bring up. I'm going to read it. It's in the book of Acts chapter 17.
00:04:36
Speaker
verses 16 through 34 and you'll learn as you as I read it why I've chosen this passage and how it relates to this conversation it says while Paul was waiting for them in Athens he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols so he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and Gafia and Greeks as well as the marketplace day by day with those who happen to be there
00:05:00
Speaker
A group of the Eunaric and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, what is this babbler trying to say? Others remarked, he seemed to be advocating foreign gods. They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. Then he took him and brought him to a meeting of the Aprils, where they sat
00:05:24
Speaker
And they said to him, may we know what this teaching is that you're presenting? You're bringing some strange ideas to our ears. And we would like to know what they mean. All the Athians and foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas. Paul stood up in a meeting in the empress and said, people of Athens, I see in every way you are very religious.
00:05:51
Speaker
For all as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I have found an altar with this inscription to not know God, so you are ignorant to the very things you worship. And this is what I'm going to proclaim to you.
00:06:05
Speaker
The God who made the world, the heavens and earth, does not live in temples built by human hands, and He is not served by human hands, as if He needed anything. Rather, He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man He made all nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth, and He marked out their appointment times in history and boundaries of their land. God did this so that they will see and seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him.
00:06:33
Speaker
Though He is not far from us, for in Him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, we of His offspring. Therefore, since we are God's offspring, we should not think about the divine being like gold or silver or stone, and the image made by human design and skill. In the past, God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent.
00:06:57
Speaker
For he has set a day he will judge the world with justice by a man he has appointed. He has
New Year's Resolutions and Personal Growth
00:07:04
Speaker
given proof of this everyone by raising him from the dead. When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, we want to hear you again on this subject. As that, Paul left the council. Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Darius, a member of the Ampereas,
00:07:27
Speaker
also women named Marius and a number of others. So I just wanted to use this text to show believers that don't know, haven't even come across this text. It's okay to have conversation and dialogue with philosopher's stories. It's okay to discuss things that we may not agree or disagree with. The whole goal is to, you know, there's a saying that Paul says throughout his writings and I love it. And the King James, he said, I will not allow you to be ignorant.
00:07:57
Speaker
my brothers and sisters. So I'm using that just to express what it is that sets the foundation for the conversation. So my first thought, conversation, and question I want to ask, I want to get your perspective on the Terriers. What are your thoughts on the New Year's resolution? And if you do, what is your New Year's resolution for this year?
00:08:19
Speaker
I don't think I said a New Year's resolution this year. My thoughts on it are, let me see where I start on this. I think the idea of resolutions are good. I do set resolutions, but I tend to be somebody that, so this fits beautifully with the path that's due, John, because people that don't know, haven't heard me before. I tend to approach life in a very, I try and be as rational, reasonable, logical as possible.
00:08:39
Speaker
Not in a cold way. To me, I'm trying to look at everything and just understand what's really there in the most efficient, practical, productive way we can. So that includes emotions. That includes things that are more abstract. That has to be a part of it, because that's part of the world. But we only have our minds to process. So one with an answer to your question, Jonathan. But I say that because I think resolutions make sense. I think the New Year's resolution, that whole concept of it, if it works for some people, cool. But at times, our minds like crutches. It likes feeling good, even if it's not.
00:09:09
Speaker
It can make us feel like something is a commitment or there's more there when there really isn't. So I kind of set my resolutions on a.
00:09:17
Speaker
ad hoc basis when things come up. Like I have a checklist that I go through every day of things that I want to do when I end the day to say this would make me feel like I had a good productive day. So I'll add things to that from time to time and just try and track and stick to those as best I can. So all that to say, I think it's awesome if people are trying to better themselves. I just think trying to make sure we're not doing it in a way that's kind of deceiving ourselves or arbitrary is important. And I think sometimes stuff like that gets caught up in that. What do you think, Bo? What do you think of these resolutions?
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah, so I've never been a big New Year's resolution guy. And I don't know if there's specific reasons why not, but I know as I think about it now, one of the big dangers is that one of the gifts of a New Year's resolution is you have this unique push. It's the start of a new year. It's the start of something like I could actually really commit and focus because I've been struggling to do this for a while. But this, this is going to be my driver, not the danger of it.
00:10:13
Speaker
is that when we inevitably get to week two and we've gotten off track, we think, well, it kind of ruined my New Year's resolution. And our minds, we wouldn't say that's been in our minds. We think, well, I'll try again next year. And when we're talking about how we grow ourselves and develop ourselves,
00:10:30
Speaker
There may be things in us that will drive us, but there are also things that will find loopholes and escape hatches, and that becomes an easy one. And so, I mean, I find this with myself. There are times where it's very hard for me to be driven to actually grow in a certain way or get better at certain way. One of the stumbling blocks for me is if I get off rhythm, right? So like exercising.
00:10:57
Speaker
I don't have a natural draw to go out and get on a piece of equipment and go, go, go. And now that I've got young kids, I don't even have the time to do that. But there have been seasons in my life where I have gotten into a rhythm. But the moment that that rhythm...
00:11:11
Speaker
switches for some reason, man, I'm lost. And so I think resolutions in general can be powerful things in our development. We have to be mindful of when we attach those adjectives to it or those time frames or anything to it, we have to be mindful of the ways that that could be helpful or the ways that those can actually become stumbling blocks in and of themselves. So, you know, when I when I first
00:11:38
Speaker
You know, I was actually first on board with New Year's resolutions, but I think what changed for me was so, you know, I like to look at things philosophically, but I also like to look at things through a biblical lens.
Human Flaws and Personal Development
00:11:51
Speaker
And I also have done some research.
00:11:53
Speaker
because, you know, trying to figure out what would I discuss moving into the new year? And I realized what was more accessible and made more sense to me with themes. And the reason why I think themes are much more powerful and effective is because the resolution is more narrow. The theme concept is like, okay, I want to approach this thing. And there's multiple different umbrellas under that one theme that I find to be a bit more useful.
00:12:17
Speaker
And it was actually a passage that I came across Proverbs chapter 20 verse 25, and it says, it's a trap to dedicate something rashly, only later to consider one's vow. And I realize a lot of us as human beings, we make these vows, these commitments. And unfortunately, because we're human, we're going through life, we're trying to figure things out, we quickly, not deterably, but we do it unintentionally. The commitments don't always stay, and it has to do with probably different situations and circumstances that we're going through.
00:12:46
Speaker
And I realized that, you know, if I'm looking to attempt to make a change, right? Because traditionally we know that the New Year's resolutions really comes from a Western world is also found in the Eastern world, right? And the whole concept is to really, you know, have this person yourself as a result, right? You want to have good practices, you want a change and you want an undesirable trade or a behavior and accomplish.
00:13:11
Speaker
You want those things to change and you want personal goals or there might be something going on in proper or you want to behave your change. And at least for me, I think it's a challenge, at least within a human concept, because it's hard.
00:13:26
Speaker
It's hard to try to make a change and do better because I think as human beings we're inconsistent, right? There's not a point in which I think anything that we can do and say we can do it thoroughly straight through without a determinant or without something that's preventing us to reach the ultimate goal. And you know, that's, that's what made me hold tight to this concept of understanding that our new year's resolution is a man or a woman's attempt to try to do something inevitably that we really can't.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I think that's the attempt that we try to pursue, but ultimately it falls down because of our inability to be consistent. And I think in everything, we need a push. We need a accountability partner. We need someone there to help remind us. And I think if we're looking at it from a biblical lens, the only individual that I know that majors in this sort of contact is Jesus, right? He gives us a new heart, right? We learn this through different portions and sections of scripture.
00:14:23
Speaker
I believe second Corinthians chapter 5 verse 17 says if anyone is in Christ He is a new creature old things have passed away behold all things become new So we're really looking at the New Year's resolution concept and we're trying to understand Why things aren't working is because we're trying to do within our own strafe and as a result doesn't work out So what are your thoughts Terrence? so what I think about as you say that is so so let me say this it ties back to the What you read in the beginning?
00:14:52
Speaker
So I came into this from a very philosophical perspective of trying to get a deeper understanding about human nature and myself, frankly. I wanted to figure out how to be a better person, what that meant, and then how do I get to it.
00:15:04
Speaker
And what I found is one of the themes that runs most strongly for me is the flaws of the human mind or the humans in general, of humanity. And so much of what I think philosophy seeks to do and what I've sought to do is how do I understand those flaws better? How do I account for them? Because it sounds strange to say, but I'll just say it here.
00:15:26
Speaker
Because there's a shadow side to this, but we're broken somewhat as humans. There's an aspect of us that's broken. And it's interesting because the more I've pursued that from a philosophical lens, I've started to better appreciate spirituality and religion. And taking what you're saying, Jonathan, in this,
00:15:42
Speaker
There's an aspect of, if I just look at it for the message and the word, let's put aside the God component up for a second. So much of what I see in religion is trying to figure out a way to say, humans, we know you're broken. How can we help you address this and fix this? Maybe there's some very direct ways. Maybe we're incapable of doing it, so we need to do it in some extreme ways. And it's trying to do that towards some greater good, some better version of us. So that sort of makes me think about when you say that, the resolution is kind of an example of that, where, as you're saying,
00:16:10
Speaker
There are things we are just not capable of. We're not good enough of doing. And I think for a lot of people, the belief is if you find God, if you bring Jesus in, now you're able to do those things. I don't dispute that. I don't know. You know, I'm sure we'll have conversations about it. But for me, where I kind of sit right now is the same concept and principle. If you can acknowledge that you are broken in some ways and kind of try and figure out how to best account for that, you're humble enough to do it.
00:16:33
Speaker
you'll likely then get there. It's not going to be the gimmicks. It's not going to be the tricks. It's going to be that true work of figuring out, you know, what needs to be addressed and what needs to be better. So that's what it makes me think of when you say that. Yeah, it's I appreciate pushing into this idea of as humans, there's just there's a lot of limitations. There's a lot of ways that we're just not what we should be, could be, want to be.
00:16:59
Speaker
And our problem sometimes is when we don't acknowledge that when we're not aware of that and we try to operate as though we are perfect or have arrived or or and this is what really got me thinking is that we can achieve perfection and.
00:17:14
Speaker
There are a lot of people that will drive with that mindset that if I just work hard enough, go long enough, learn enough, like I can achieve this idea of perfection in my mind. So, you know, Jonathan, you've been bringing up scripture and when you were reading that or when you were talking about Jesus, it made me think of the Apostle Paul and he has a verse where he says,
00:17:34
Speaker
Not that I've achieved, like this is my version of it. I can't remember the actual version, but not that I've achieved perfection, but I continue to run the race. And so later on he says, I don't understand what I do. Cause what I hate to do, I do. And what I want to do, I don't do. And so even the apostle Paul, who a lot of Christians would look up to and say, oh man, he's a super Christian. Like he's saying, look, like I continue to misstep.
00:17:58
Speaker
I continue to not achieve what I feel like I should be achieving. I've got this thorn in my flesh that's limiting me, so God take it away so I can be who I need to be.
00:18:09
Speaker
And the moment that he comes to a realization that perfection in and of himself isn't the goal, then he's actually able to start functioning as he's meant to. So that thorn in the flesh passions. You know, he asked God three times, take this away because I can't do my ministry right with this in me, whatever the thorn is. And he comes to realize that one of the reasons that God leaves it is so that he doesn't become conceited.
00:18:34
Speaker
Because again, like if in and of ourselves we're achieving all the things, we've seen this. We have seen people who become very conceited, become very arrogant, become very prideful, because it's easy for us to think highly of ourselves. When we have a level of humility, when we recognize, man, you know, but for the grace of God, I don't know where I'd be or
00:18:53
Speaker
like I'm aware of my faults sure you're looking at me and putting me on a pedestal but let me tell you like I struggle to like those are the people that we actually come to truly respect
00:19:05
Speaker
because we recognize that they know that they are not the epitome of perfection. And so when we had this idea, now that influences what a New Year's resolution, what a goal can look like, because we're tempering that not in a way that it like diminishes or lessens, but it makes it more realistic. You know, I long to get to this place.
00:19:27
Speaker
but I'm also very aware of my limitations. And so I'm going to shape this goal in a way that it's realistic to that reality.
Addiction, Authenticity, and Personal Value
00:19:35
Speaker
Take addiction, for example. Things like the 12-step programs exist to bring in, like we were saying before, this accountability, this support. But anyone who goes through that has an understanding that addiction may be something that they're wrestling with for the rest of their life.
00:19:55
Speaker
If someone who's wrestling with addiction thinks, oh man, no, if I just work hard enough, think the right things, learn the right things, like I can get addiction out of my life altogether, well, when they hit that first point of temptation or they hit that first relapse,
00:20:09
Speaker
It could be crushing, right? But if you have an understanding that, man, this is something I'm going to wrestle with, then you could still strive to avoid certain things. You could still strive for these very high levels. It doesn't negate that, but it allows you to understand who you are in the process and what's necessary for you to continue. Yeah, I agree.
00:20:29
Speaker
Also, last question. So Terrence, what are your thoughts on relationships, friendships, acquaintances? How do you maneuver through them? How do you make them work for you? What's the lens you see it through? I mean, I think it's changed for me over the years. I say often I'm like a recovering people pleaser. I think very, very much in the same vein of what we've been talking about of like trying to be a better person. I think in my younger days and maybe a more immature way,
00:20:55
Speaker
A better person meant just if people liked you, right? In a very cliched sense. That means if then you're doing something right, right? You're trying to be a good person. You're trying to be somebody that people want to be around. So I think earlier in my life, there was a lot of not like in a malicious way, not like an overt way, but a superficiality to it, because I was never the goal was always to be liked.
00:21:16
Speaker
to feel like you were a good person. I think in many ways that's what it was all about. There was no substance to it. There wasn't a why to it. What does it actually mean to be a good person? It's just what it is. So I viewed relationships kind of, I guess, as validation in some ways. That was probably, if I'm being honest, the biggest benefit I got out of them. If I felt like I knew a lot of people, a lot of people liked me, then I was getting some of that. I was doing a good job at being a good person, being a better person. It's interesting because it's only been the last, I don't know, maybe five, six years
00:21:46
Speaker
in earnest, where I started to like consciously move away from that. And it scared me a little bit with relationships. Because, you know, again, all this is very cliche, but it's very real, you start to wonder, like, well, what if I start being more honest? What if I start being more myself and not trying to people please as much? What does that look like? Like, what does happen to relationships? So there's been, you know, a little bit of concern with me on that and trying to work through that.
00:22:09
Speaker
But I think the way that I view them now is that one of the things that I value, that I get the most joy value out of in life is just, I want to say like authentic experience and authentic moments, but that doesn't do it justice, those words. And I also don't want to make it sound like super pie in the sky, but it's like moments where you actually feel alive. And I think when you have a true human connection with somebody, my brother is a great example. We'll talk about exactly these types of conversations at nauseam.
00:22:35
Speaker
There's a deep joy and fulfillment that comes out of that. So that's kind of what I seek in relationships now. Needless to say, I have a very hard time with small talk these days. So when I show up at a party, it can be difficult, unlike that more minor level. So that's something I'm working on. But I think that's what it's evolved into, and obviously much better, I think, much richer life in this version. I resonate with the, yeah.
00:22:58
Speaker
I'm the same way small talk. Like I just, I just, um, and, and I think it's part of like my introverted nature. Like what I long for, it's not that I don't want to be around people, but if I am around people, I want there to be authenticity and depth. Like I want there to be connection. Uh, and so that's really hard at a wedding reception where everyone's asking the same three questions. Um, but if I'm sitting down in a conversation like this, like if there's something beautiful about it,
00:23:25
Speaker
And it's interesting, I'm similar in some ways to what you were describing, but from a slightly over to the side in that I've never been one to be overtly people pleasing, but I've come to realize that
00:23:41
Speaker
It's like this other end of it where I didn't necessarily care what people thought. But if somebody thought something incorrect about me or something negative about me, that's when it started to hit me. So in other words, like I didn't need the spotlight. I didn't need to be overt approval. But if there was that disapproval.
00:24:00
Speaker
And man, there is a season in my life where there was a good season in my life where I didn't get a lot of that negative stuff. And I look back now and I was like, man, I was a weird kid. Maybe I should have gotten more of it. But I didn't care. I didn't care that it was weird because I just was being who I was. But then when I hit a season of life where people began to speak more critically into me,
00:24:21
Speaker
I became a lot more mindful of who I was in a negative way. I began to define myself based on that feedback. I began to align myself in such a way that fit what they were looking for. And man, it got rough. And this was coming from people that were supposed to be the ones affirming and supporting me or loving me. This came from Christians that should have been operating in a manner of love. And finally, like,
00:24:48
Speaker
I got to a place where prayerfully I felt like God was inviting me to recognize that my value wasn't determined by others. That if he determined that I had value, then it didn't matter what others said. And shifting my perspective, that little, little shift, the circumstances didn't change, but who I was and how I was able to operate and how I engaged relationships did change. So it was no longer about
00:25:14
Speaker
I need to operate in such a way that others will approve of or give positive feedback around or not give negative feedback. It's I need to be authentic in these spaces and people will receive it or people won't. Like that's just the name of the game. Some people will see you accurately and others won't. And so how can I be authentic to myself in these spaces? And what I found is that authenticity will go a long way. You know, even, you know, again with Jesus,
00:25:44
Speaker
He was authentic to who he was. And there are a lot of people that really appreciated that and received that well. There are a lot of people that overtly seemed to receive it, but didn't really get who he was. And there are a lot of people that out the gate were like, no, I don't want this. And he had to operate with all those things existing at the same time. I think the other thing, and it's like the flip side of this, because we'll think about this question from our vantage point, how do I engage relationship? But we don't necessarily ask the question,
00:26:14
Speaker
How would others say that they experience relationship from us? And so in a lot of the work that I do, there is a lot of community-based work in the community that I live in. There's high levels of poverty, a lot of gun violence, high levels of addiction, a lot of struggles. And there are many neighbors around me
00:26:35
Speaker
who people intentionally don't engage in relationship with because they look at them and say, well, I'm scared of you, or you're different than me, or you just want something from me, or a whole litany of things.
00:26:50
Speaker
And if I'm claiming to be a Christian, then I'm also saying that I'm going to follow something like love God and love others, love your neighbor as yourself. And so if I see somebody who is asking for money and my gut instinct is to not relate with them, not connect with them,
00:27:07
Speaker
then what do I actually believe? What do I actually value? And so I've been finding myself pressing more and more into this idea of what it actually means to love my neighbor. Or put another way to this question, what does it mean to relate to those around me, whatever they're bringing to the table?
Empathy, Sympathy, and Types of Friendships
00:27:23
Speaker
And Jesus even said, love your enemy. So I've got to be willing to ask the question, how do I relate with those who oppose me, who are actively harming me?
00:27:33
Speaker
Because when we're talking about relationships, it's easy for us to talk about the easy relationships and the relationships that we have to have. But there are a lot of relationships that we don't have to have. And yet there is an invitation any time we are in proximity with someone to have a connection. Are we avoiding those or are we mindfully pressing into those?
00:27:55
Speaker
Just to comment on something you said, a while back, I had to understand the difference between being empathetic and sympathetic. A sympathetic attitude is a person who believes that they're far and beyond the person that they're dealing with.
00:28:12
Speaker
and therefore if they're asked to contribute or be a part of something they do so and then they go back to the life that they have and it's completely different than theirs. But the empathetic aspect allows you to take into consideration the history of what it took or where they are to then be able to bond and make that connection better.
00:28:29
Speaker
Right. And I think we should strive to be more empathetic because it shows that we have concern to how they got into where they are and the different things that it took, you know, how they build and what worked and what didn't work. Right. And we can always tell the difference between someone who's really engaged and concerned and interested for someone who is there just to fulfill a quota or to fulfill something.
00:28:51
Speaker
that they said they will do but they know authentically they have no interest in it and nothing that's going on within that person's life you have any understanding okay to know about right but the way i've viewed relationships and and this is why the philosophical part of me has always been something that i've cared and had an interest is i appreciate Aristotle's perspective for friendships right he characterized it in three ways
00:29:15
Speaker
friendship or unity, friendship or pleasure, friendship or goodness. And I've applied that throughout my experience in college and I still do today. And what he said is at least in the friendship or pleasure is one that brings about a positive experience that you have with a person, right? So maybe you want to go play basketball. Maybe you want to go watch a movie. You usually find friends that circle around that sort of context because that's something you all have in common.
00:29:42
Speaker
The friendship of unity is just utilizing the benefit that that person gives to you. So I would compare it to a barber, for example. You trust that barber to enhance your appearance.
00:29:53
Speaker
And the barber trusts that you'll pay them so that they can continue to make a living. That's a relationship. A lot of people don't understand that, but the reason why it's a relationship is because you've created a bond where you trust them enough to continue until you give them business. And they trust you enough at least to continue to come back, right? And to me, I think we build those sort of relationships all the time. And I've had relationships with my professors just because of that, right?
00:30:17
Speaker
they're they love and appreciate the admiration that you have for your desire to learn and grow right and they understand that you're coming to them because they believe as much as you believe that they have the instrumental and ways to get you to where you need to be right and that's the reason why i think those the friendship or unity gets i think so underly looked and appreciated because we think that when we're encountering people we're not learning and we're not understanding and there isn't some relationship
00:30:45
Speaker
Because I know at least growing up the relationship aspect is I have your number I have some sort of social media contact and therefore we're friends But I think the friendship aspect gets underlooked because something from that contact or that communication you take away from and then the friendship of goodness to me has always been The friendship that you've known for such a long time that you've established some sort of communication with and they've always been there for you
00:31:08
Speaker
right? You can talk to them about anything. There is no topic that isn't off the table that you can discuss. That's always been valuable and appreciative to me. And then I mean, even when I look at this whole concept of friendship, you know, Jesus said, right? He no longer calls his disciples
00:31:27
Speaker
You know disciples were friends because he says I share my business with you, right? So it shifted from this understanding that this interaction that God through Christ is having is not just something that is employed But there's a personal communication that's going on that allows us to continue to develop and grow and your relationships are what you pour into it, right and
00:31:50
Speaker
And even when I think about, you know, what private said, probably brings up and Corinthians brings up something I got to think about. Okay. So I know first Corinthians 15 33 talks about how bad company corrupts good character. And it's true, right? You got the wrong people around you. It corrupts the character that you're trying to establish.
00:32:08
Speaker
And of course we get, you know, promise 27, 17, when it says iron sharpened iron. So the person sharp is another, right? If you ever seen iron sharpened and iron, it's never great, right? The sparks are flying. You're trying to.
00:32:20
Speaker
you know flash and you see something occurring there and those tough conversations you have even among the friendships those that don't share the same belief systems you some that are culturally different than you those conversations that you have no one ever says you'll come to a solution but i'm a person that believes conflict is necessary for growth
00:32:39
Speaker
And that conflict allows you to wrestle and decide what it is that can be of value that can bring into the next situation.
Human Imperfection and Spiritual Beliefs
00:32:47
Speaker
And I think that's what has transpired into companies now. We're trying to get diversity in there in order that we can have an overall understanding on how it can be appreciated for everyone, not just a similar group or someone that looks like you. But if everyone was within that area, pitches in. So we're getting perspectives from everyone so that we can create something
00:33:08
Speaker
that at least everyone feels that there's some sort of unity or justification moving forward. So any thoughts, ideas, Darrin? Yeah, I mean, it makes me think back to what we were before with the theme of everything you're explaining makes perfect sense. It makes so much sense. That's what relationships should be. We should be moving towards it. You can even push it to where I think, I don't know, maybe we'd all agree that
00:33:33
Speaker
you know, we should view everybody as the same. We should view everybody as myself, right? You're me, I'm you, we're all, you know, we're all in this together as family, but then it quickly looks at like, but we're not there. And can we ever get there? And why can't we? Like back to that broken concept. The things we speak of, and I guess this gets back to the religious aspect of it, is a drive and a push towards that.
00:33:54
Speaker
that's more at a macro level, right? Before we were more individual. It always brings me back to the question, and we can take this or we can table it, because it starts off as like a cliche question, but it can obviously go deeper of, it always begs the question of why? I see the value on an individual level of the journey. I see the value of that. I can even maybe see it somewhat societally, but if you look at it completely universally, but from the whole of existence, why? Why have a situation set up where
00:34:21
Speaker
We aren't what we should be, where the ugliness is allowed into the world. When if we embrace what you were just saying, Jonathan, and Paul, some of the things you were saying before, it seems so obvious the world would be a better place. Why create humans that are broken? I think this is where sometimes people get tripped up with spirituality, religion, Christianity, God, and all of it. It's just, why are you making us have to go through this? And again, there's a short answer of either we don't understand. There's some reason for it that's beyond us, or it's going to lead to something better.
00:34:51
Speaker
And I get that. I get that. But it just seems like if there were an option to where we could just be there, that would seem like a better option. And I recognize the immaturity in that at the same time. But still, there's some part of me that says, why can't it just be that? You want to take a poll? Well, those kind of questions are so important because our gut response
00:35:17
Speaker
A Christian gut response can be to avoid such a question, right? Because it's like questioning God and questioning his intentions and questioning his sovereignty. But God gave us minds to ask these kind of questions, to process, to go deep. You look at the Psalms and so many of the Psalms are like asking hard questions like, what in the world, God, why are you doing this? And so, yeah, I've thought about this too, because again, yeah, it would be so much easier if we just
00:35:46
Speaker
Got it. And one of the things I came to recently is, for whatever reason, you know, I believe that God created
00:35:55
Speaker
everyone, and I believe that God created people, as scripture says, in his image. But what's interesting about that is that he created us in his image, but he didn't create complete copies of themselves. In other words, he created humans, he didn't create a whole bunch of gods. And so there's something that's distinctly different then between humans and God.
00:36:20
Speaker
And so then God's inviting us into relationship, right? Inviting us into connection. But there is this awareness that he has that we have a limitation to what we can understand. So this is where like one of the big tripping points is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And it's like, why would you put a tree in the garden and then say you can't touch the tree?
00:36:45
Speaker
And I was processing that one time and realized, what if part of the reason that God did that is because he desired to be, like we were talking about before, fully authentic and fully present. Like, this is who I am. And the knowledge of good and evil is a part of how I understand things, how the world exists. But at the same time, God realizes
00:37:10
Speaker
You as a human can't contain all that knowledge in your head. If I just put that all in there, your head might explode. So I want you to have an access to it, but I also know that you can't handle it. It's like medication. As an adult, I can take certain medication that my kids can't. Their bodies are too small. If I gave them the same dosage or the same medicine, it could actually do a lot of harm.
00:37:40
Speaker
And so there's children's Motrin. I could give my kids children Motrin, which is a form of Motrin, but is diminished or adjusted in such a way that they can still get the medication, still get the effects of it, but in a different way. And as they grow, they're able to handle more and more and more. They get past age 12, now they got the adult dosage, right? And so this idea of how
00:38:08
Speaker
we are designed to function. Like all this stuff that we're talking about, that it's like if we could just get this. I think part of the problem is we think we understand it, but we don't fully understand it. Right. So to give an example, we're talking about how like we can interact with others in a loving way.
00:38:28
Speaker
Well, the reality is, in order to really, really love someone as ourselves, it's costly. It cost us something. I love my kids. The reality is, is loving them is costing me time. It's costing me my comfort. I have to touch a lot of poop that's not my own sometimes, right? Like, no person would choose to do that, but I as a parent am choosing to do that. I'm getting argued with. I get yelled at, right?
00:38:56
Speaker
I recognize that being a father is costly and I think there's plenty of relationships where I might choose to accept that cost and plenty of them that subconsciously I won't even step into it. Going back to what I said earlier, I see someone up ahead that looks like they're begging for money. I'm not willing to accept that cost. We may go through that in our minds, but a lot of times if we're honest,
00:39:17
Speaker
We don't even consciously ask those questions. There's something default in us that's not willing to accept the cost. And so I think that's part of it is, you know, because I believe that God created all of this, I think He has this realization that in and of ourselves, we have these barriers and limitations. Now, could He have created us to not have those barriers and limitations? He could have. He could have created us as gods. For some reason, He didn't.
00:39:43
Speaker
And that's the part that I grapple with now is why then did he choose to make me something different and yet made in his image? What does that mean for how I interact? What does that mean for what I need to release? And honestly, it's a lifelong journey. These questions, I have to be willing to continue to ask them humbly because at the point that I stop,
00:40:02
Speaker
Then I get prideful, arrogant, then I think I know, and I get to be like Adam and Eve who are like, oh, if we eat this, then we can be like God. And essentially we don't need him anymore. So I'm going to take a bite. So before I ask the next question, the way I would answer this is based upon my experience, I've always experienced God as a God, as a God of process.
00:40:25
Speaker
There's never been an opportunity where God does things instantly. Because if he does things instantly, then you don't get the opportunity to grow. If you don't get the opportunity to grow, then how can you see how you've gone from point A to point B? If everything was done just perfectly the way it is, then how are you beginning to trust God, right? The whole aspect of faith
00:40:45
Speaker
is the substance of things hopeful that evidence of things not seen sometimes in that process god allows certain things the good and the bad right the question i guess acts why does bad things happen to good people well i think generically we're looking at those turns in the context of how we see bad and good if we look at the through the context of the bible the god's word we know that good is something that god is capable of
00:41:14
Speaker
in terms of creation, in terms of what he considers can be good. But when we look at ourselves, you just mentioned how broken and wounded we are, and I believe that's a condition of sin. That's a result of understanding that we're not good as a result of that. There is no innocent person.
00:41:31
Speaker
Right? That's why he got in Proverbs, not Proverbs. Romans, when he says, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God, is acknowledging and realizing that that falling short means you need assistance and help. And without the assistance and help, then how can you grow and mature into the person that God has caused you to be?
00:41:47
Speaker
I think it's the realization of gaining and getting the assistance that can then perpetuate you to a place where you come to the realization that that assistance and help is part of the process element. And if we all have it exactly the way we want it, then I think it might be. Oh, you have a question. Okay. I bet you asked anyone to say before. Yeah, go ahead.
00:42:12
Speaker
Um, well, all right. So, and take us off to Jonathan, if you want to go on a different thread, but I think you might imagine. And I think if I try and like net it out to what I grapple with the most on this is.
00:42:25
Speaker
And correct me, right? I'm gonna say some things. I'm gonna make some assumptions. Let's work through it. But there's an assumption of like, there's a greater good, right? There's a greater good, whether it be individually, as you just said, the process and going through it allows you to become who you're supposed to be. And again, you can look at that at the macro level and say, as a world, we'll get to where we're supposed to be, but we have to go through these trials and tribulations. I think that's where I grapple because
00:42:47
Speaker
The one thing I think, back to where you were, Paul, we just can't understand it all. The only thing I think we can understand, perhaps, is suffering, right? And think of it. Think of the purest, truest suffering, right? Because suffering is a loaded term. It can carry a lot of weight. We can look at that as something that's somewhat superficial. Think about true suffering, which happens every day. It's happening right now, as we're speaking, right? Children being abused, women being sexually assaulted. Just pick the thing. We can go on and on and on. You can go wherever you want to go with it.
00:43:16
Speaker
There's an implication in that, that that greater good is worth that. And it's hard for me as us as humans, tell me if you guys agree, because we know what that suffering
Suffering and its Spiritual Implications
00:43:24
Speaker
feels like. Either we've experienced it directly or we've seen it in other people. We know how ugly that is. The idea that the arrangement works best when we give that up for this, like, I almost would rather than I, the greater good shouldn't, it's not worth it.
00:43:38
Speaker
We shouldn't be getting there if it's at the cost of that. And to me, and it may be a strange, perhaps even blasphemous way, but I don't mean it that way. To me, that's God. God's that realization that nothing should allow for that suffering to happen. There's no reason that we should think of now, that's again, who am I to say that maybe there is something greater. But I just can't imagine it if we think of that suffering and being okay with it. And you know, it's delicate, it's nuanced. I know we're not saying we're okay with suffering. But how do you think about that part of it? Like, does that? I don't know.
00:44:06
Speaker
He just had a whole series of sufferings. I'm going to get this to pull that. On my podcast, I spent a year, 52 episodes, and I don't even do weekly. So it was a wild ride, a focus on this concept of sitting and suffering. And how do we trust God when he doesn't take away the hardship? And I think you're right that we've
00:44:32
Speaker
There are some things that are just so, so, so bad. It could be really hard to see there being anything redemptive to it. Or put another way, there are some things that are so bad that there better be something that is better than I could ever imagine, because it's going to have to be to outweigh it. If you got a seesaw, this has got to be really, really, really good.
00:44:56
Speaker
And I think you're right for a lot of people and myself included in many parts of my life, simply becoming a better person is like, I don't feel like all this is worth that. And I think where I found myself sometimes is realizing that that's still part of it. Like me developing, me growing, like this is just a human thing.
00:45:17
Speaker
We want to become better than we were. We don't want to be infants all our lives. We don't want to hurt people anymore. So we continue to grow. But I think where I found myself is realizing the ways in which all of this might be about something beyond me.
00:45:33
Speaker
And so, for example, as a father, I've come to acknowledge that there are decisions that I'm going to make now that aren't for my life but are for something beyond me, are for my kids' lives, the ways that I equip them and set them up, the things that I sacrifice so that their lives can be better.
00:45:50
Speaker
And this is scriptural. You look at a famous passage that people love to talk about. It's Jeremiah 2911, for I know the plans I have for you to prosper you and not cause harm. A lot of people will grab that and use it in a very finite way. Therefore, God will not let anything bad happen to me and only good things will happen. Well, that falls flat the moment something bad happens or the moment God doesn't take something away. But if we take that passage in context,
00:46:18
Speaker
That is talking to a group of people who have been exiled. So they've been stripped, like pulled out of the lives that they knew and thrown into somewhere they don't even know if the same language is spoken. I don't know if the same land exists. Can they still farm in the way they did like their lives may be totally disrupted.
00:46:34
Speaker
They may be experiencing deep, deep grief. And this verse happens, but one of the things that the prophet says, God says there as well, is after 70 years have passed, which means that the people hearing this prophecy aren't going to be alive to experience it, right? 70 years, that's a lifetime, if not more. So not even the kids are, you know, so it's this
00:47:00
Speaker
It's this idea that those words were spoken for something beyond them. Scripture is very generational. A lot of times when God is engaging with people, He is thinking generationally. It's not just for you, sir, looking at me right now, and it's not just for you and this body of people, it's for the generations and the generations to come.
00:47:19
Speaker
You know, I did this series with 52 conversations of people navigating, I mean, some rough, rough stuff. Some of it, it's like they experienced something rough and it's done. A lot of them are still experiencing it. There were folks that I talked to who still don't know how much longer they're going to be alive. And what was wild is how many of them still for some reason believed that God was good and that they're suffering
00:47:45
Speaker
Some would even say, some did say, if you, do I wish that I could walk again? Yes. But if you gave me a button that could remove that suffering, I don't know that I would push it. And it's so wild anytime I hear them say it and especially knowing that they really believe it and they're authentic because what I come to learn is it's not just, they definitely, they grew as a person. But I think for many of them, it's they come to realize,
00:48:13
Speaker
that they are now a part of something greater than them. That before they didn't want to get cancer because of how much it would hurt. But now as they're sitting with other hurting families and able to empathize, right? Not just sympathize like they used to, they're there, I'm so sorry, but like empathize, like you don't have to say a thing, I totally understand what you're saying. Suddenly they're bringing life and hope in places that they couldn't have before.
00:48:37
Speaker
Would they have chosen the path of cancer or hardship to get there? Not necessarily. And even in my own life, I think of the hardships and suffering that I've experienced that I'm like, I wouldn't have chosen that, but there's so much of it that I'm still now at this vantage point, able to recognize it in a very different way than I did in the midst of it and definitely than I did at the forefront of it. So there's so many different ways I can approach this question.
00:49:07
Speaker
And I'm trying to see, because I don't want to go on babbling for a very long time. Because there's so many ways I can approach this. It's your podcast. That's very true. That's very true. But I wanted to see how practically I could put it, right? So Jesus said, in this life, you will face tribulation, hardships, but be a good cheer, I'll overcome the world.
00:49:33
Speaker
And I think that's fascinating because for one, he's putting us on notice that we're going to face hardships, bad times, but he's saying we'll be a good cheer, but I've overcome the world. And the reason why that's kind of baffling to me is because Jesus is supposed to be God in flesh.
00:49:56
Speaker
and he's in form of us, so what to be expected that's going to happen. Even when Jesus was carrying a cross, a lot of people don't know this in Luke 19, he's trying to tell women who have children or to come and have children that the Jews are going to face exile, that a lot of them are going to be murdered.
00:50:17
Speaker
And he's saying the hard times, he even wept. This is before the crucifixion even happened. He wept because he saw what was coming and how some will get away and how some won't. And that made me realize at least what James was talking about when he says, consider it pure joy when you face the trials of your tribulations to know that the testing of your faith will produce perseverance, that perseverance finishes work. So you may be mature and complete.
00:50:46
Speaker
not lacking anything. If anyone lacks anything, let them ask God who gives generously without fighting for. And then you go to Romans and you read chapter five, verse three to five, rejoice in your suffering. The suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character. Character produces hope. Hope does not put us to shame because the Holy Spirit has poured out into us. So this is a process of all this development of your character. And if suffering doesn't happen, then how can it be tested?
00:51:15
Speaker
If we go to first Peter and he's talking about faith and he's talking about the refining No, your faith is the same way gold will be tested by fire. So will your faith right? And I think so often when we think about our belief in God We don't realize how much of it is either gonna be a preference or a conviction Right conviction is something you believe in no matter what a preference is something that changes over time so if in fact
00:51:42
Speaker
what jesus said when he told his disciples fear not the one who can take the soul but fear the one who can take the soul and the body that's a representation of understanding that your belief in me there will be something that is costly you're going to cost because you believe in me this is expected so as a result pain and suffering is part of making a decision to those who don't want you to believe that to those who don't who are counter to what you believe
00:52:11
Speaker
And as a result of that, in order to get you out of what you believe, suffering is on its way.
00:52:17
Speaker
Suffering is part of the process. In anything, in life, there's a threat. With that threat, there comes a promise. In life, there's opportunity. With that comes opposition. No matter what you do in life, there's going to be opposition with an opportunity, which means that opposition is to scare you away from the opportunity. The same thing when it comes to, like I said, a threat and a promise. God has made you a promise. But that doesn't mean to get to that promise, it's going to be sunshines and blue skies.
00:52:45
Speaker
There's a process I guess that and I think the hard point is well, why go do all those things? Well, Jesus said should should he carry the cross alone? Which means his cross was a physical cross our cross I think is through the day-to-day experiences He did it in a way that we don't have to die in that way, but the dying still comes of a sin, right? That's the challenge like Paul said like Paul said what Paul said about Paul
00:53:14
Speaker
right because he said you know when he said the things that i want to do right this is the battle the confrontation that you're dealing with back and forth within yourself is a struggle right so why why attempt to address that struggle individually when you can have a helper that assisted you in that struggle but of course it comes out of choice right when i think about
00:53:40
Speaker
Well, God said in John 3 16, he said, God so loved the world. And I think the problem is the way God addressed it, it may not be convincing or accepting to everybody, but he still addressed it. He addressed it to Jesus Christ. The choice is still yours, right? But when he said, God so loved the world, he sent his one and only son that whoever believed in him will not perish but have everlasting life. That belief in the son
00:54:07
Speaker
is what grants you that opportunity, right? And when we think about the things that we go through, right? We know in Proverbs 3.34, when he told us, he said, God approaches the pride but shows favor in the humble depressed. The reason why our grace is removed is because we remove ourselves from that grace, right? Luke 11.28 tells us that
00:54:30
Speaker
When it comes to this conversation he's having with a woman, he says to her, he says, well, you know, she's saying blessed is the woman that births you. But God said, bless is rather who hears my words and does what it says. So no matter what, the choice is always going to be yours. That's the reason why God is not pushy.
00:54:49
Speaker
on his choices. Instead, he enables you and allows you to go through things. And when I look at a scale from zero to two, I believe a lot of us is on scale one. Why? Because when we look through life and we look and this is going to bring us to the next point that I want to bring up, we look through life and we look at how things are going the way that they are.
Divine Goodness and Change Measurement
00:55:08
Speaker
And James, he said, draw is neither God and he will draw neither you. That's an example of that consistent push. And we see in Matthew 7, actually, you shall receive seeking, find, knock, and the door will be open to you. These are all things that God is calling for because he understands how hardship and how hard life is. But why should you bear it alone?
00:55:27
Speaker
Why should you deal with alone? So he doesn't want you to deal with it alone. But if you want to, that's up to you. That's why he says he causes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. The sun to shine on the good and on the evil. Why? Because this is how good God is. Regardless of whether you've chosen to accept him where you are in your life right now, he's still blessing. There's a passage in Genesis chapter 8, verse 21 through 22. And it really speaks about that what God had did
00:55:56
Speaker
is obviously he flooded the earth right and then it comes up point in time when he gets emotional and he makes a statement and the statement he made was very profound and this is how we know how the god is right let me see if i can i can pull it up real quick and i think what he says here is something that i think a lot of people overlook
00:56:17
Speaker
Into understanding well, why is God so good or how can we say God's good? It's because of what he decides to do here So here it is. It says when the Lord smelled pleasing aroma the Lord said in his heart. I would never again curse the ground Because of man for the intentions of man's hearts his evils from his youth Neither while ever again strike down every living creature as I have done While the earth remains see time
00:56:47
Speaker
Harvest cold in heat summer and winter day and night shall not cease What does that mean? That means God provided these things and we can rely on them and they will always be there Which means regardless of how things are going you always have access to it That's good because regardless of whether you accept to him or not you still have access to it So that's God's goodness what moves you over from scale one scale two?
00:57:13
Speaker
Is your desire to dive into him to continue to pursue him to allow him to reveal himself to you Then you move from one category over to category two and of course by moving you from category one and category two It's opposition and oppositions to prevent you from wanting to be in category two So now that brings me to the next question and the question is how do you measure change? Well, like what is your measurement of change? That's a question I got that one first
00:57:41
Speaker
How do I measure change? It's hard. Well, see, I'm struggling to answer it because of the way I think about life in that it's all relative. I mean, change in plot, there's a little bit of implication of change of like something has a value and then it moves to a different value, right? Like I think tend to think of things mathematically in that way. So it immediately gets to the question of value, like how are you determining
00:58:09
Speaker
what a change is. And you can do that on so many different levels. What warrants enough magnitude for it to be a change? What's the time duration in which it needs to last for before it's actually a change? So you can get very philosophical and abstract with it. I think if I'm thinking about it the best I can, I go back to where Paul was before. I think you can only measure change
00:58:28
Speaker
authentically? Do you feel like it is closer to the authentic truth of what it is? I think in its purest form, that's what change is when it's moving in the right direction. I guess it can also change in the other direction as well. But that's probably the most reliable gauge of change. Is it getting closer to what it is and what it's meant to be? Whatever that is, whatever you are, whatever that thing is, or is it getting further away from it?
00:58:50
Speaker
Um, because everything else feels too trivial, right? If I said, well, I've changed, I've, I've, I've lost weight or I've, you know, gotten funnier or I've gotten smarter. All that, you know, on, on a, on one level, yes, there is a change there. There is a difference, but on a very kind of like universal level, is that change meaningful? I don't know. I don't know if that's meaningful. Is it closer to who you actually are and what you're supposed to be? Oh, okay. Then I could say it's meaningful. Otherwise I don't know how meaningful it actually is.
00:59:14
Speaker
So it's obviously a very philosophical, abstract answer to that. But I think, honestly, that's how I see it. That's how I function. And I think it goes back to even the small talk we were joking about before of why that seems so hard. To me, the only thing that makes sense to live life is to live it in that purest, most authentic state. Everything else is just, I don't want to say a waste of time, because it's not. There's beauty in it. But it's not as deep. It's not as real. Yeah. I'm tracking with you.
00:59:38
Speaker
You're talking about measuring it when we authentically know that we're getting to where we're supposed to be. And I think that is the key, is how are we defining where we're supposed to be? How are we defining the goal? I think a lot, and I've thought a lot about this idea of how we define success. Culturally in America, we have some very firm understandings of success. It's about outcomes you can measure. It's about becoming bigger and bigger, more and more. And I've been
01:00:07
Speaker
full-time ministry, I mean, been doing ministry for a long time, but the last five years specifically, there's a lot that I'm doing that I know for a fact are likely not going to show the outcomes that others would look at and say, oh wow, you're successful. But I know, I know I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, even if nobody else sees any fruit of it, even if I don't see the fruit of it, because how I'm defining the goal has changed. I was in an environment that was very much about outcomes and it was a ministry
01:00:36
Speaker
And it's stifled. And so, you know, going back to New Year's resolutions and you mentioned losing weight, it's kind of depressing if somebody sees the the statistics for how few diet plans actually have lasting change or how often somebody may successfully diet and then they're back at that weight six months later. Well, why is that? Well, sometimes the goal is just to lose a number of pounds.
01:01:05
Speaker
But how lasting is that? And what's driving that? Is it just appearance? Is it just this, that, and the other? Because whatever our goal is, it's going to determine how willing we are to hold to that when circumstances come against it, when hardship hits. A lasting goal can help us to persevere through even hard things. So losing a certain number of pounds, well, when that really good dessert's out there, you might not care as much.
01:01:32
Speaker
or when it's too much work or when you injure your leg and you can't run anymore and suddenly like exercising is different like a number might not carry you but if your goal is healthy living like it if if your goal is healthy living because I want to be able to play with my grandchildren right like now we're getting into goals that have a little more staying power
01:01:55
Speaker
a little more lasting effect and goals that might look different because healthy living doesn't necessarily mean you are at this target weight. And so I think that's what I think of a measuring change really comes down to what am I changing for? What am I actually after? And plenty of times in my life, I thought I had good goals when I was in a really hard work environment.
01:02:18
Speaker
Like I thought being respected by my boss and having a sustainable job, those are good goals. Uh, but when I got to that healthy place of realizing it, my value isn't determined by them. I was still in a toxic work environment, but instead of chasing after, uh, being treated a certain way by my boss or having a sustainable workload, when I shifted to my goal being, do I feel like I am being authentic to who I am?
01:02:44
Speaker
what God's called me to and am I operating in that? Then I was able to find peace in a place that was not peaceful. Then I was able to find value in a place where I was not valued.
01:02:54
Speaker
And I was able to thrive when I shouldn't have been able to, even when I was fired without cause and was unemployed. And now I'm five years into not having a traditional paycheck almost. And it's like I feel more content where I am than I was when I had a steady paycheck, when I had a real job title, all these things, because the goal has changed. And so, yeah, I think
01:03:18
Speaker
We're always measuring change, whether we realize it or not. But we're not always cognizant of what we're changing for. And that makes a big difference in how we operate. So I've had time to think about this question, too. I think change is the only constant in life. I think change is not an event. It's a process. It goes back to that process thing again, right? I think we live our lives on levels. We arrive in stages. And it happens in seasons.
01:03:49
Speaker
I think the quality of our thinking can determine the quality of our life. So when we enhance our thinking, then so does our life and the way we live it. And I think change can be measured by another thing. So productivity is one time, growth, reflection, maturity, crisis. So let me see if I can walk through them. So I said productivity.
01:04:12
Speaker
Genesis Genesis Galatians 6 8 6 9 I believe says do not become weary in doing good for you will reap a harvest if you don't give up So we know that the process of productivity in plants it happens through a process That's how you measure his growth a seed becomes something until it blossoms into something and how high can the tree grow as high as it wants to right? That's a measurement of productivity when I think about time and I think about Jesus when he was a toddler
01:04:42
Speaker
He grew in maturity with man and God took time. Change happened. Remember his ministry was only three and a half years. So during that time, he was obviously always in the synagogue reading the scriptures and learning before God called them to his ministry. And obviously we know that he went into the devil to be tempted. He went into the desert to be tempted by the devil. And through that experience, he came out differently. You know, I would say growth,
01:05:10
Speaker
The reason why growth is an element of change is because of how you see the world.
01:05:15
Speaker
I would say Jesus had a conversation with two different men, one who was an expert in the law, and it was interesting because he said he was an expert in the law, and the expert in the law asked him a question, and Jesus' response is, you're an expert in the law, how do you read it? So do you allow prejudice and bias to get in the way of how you interpret it and understand something? When I was talking to your friend on Facebook, not on Facebook, but Instagram, I know he got upset because I used the word ignorance, but ignorance is not a bad word, it just means you don't know.
01:05:42
Speaker
Right. Stupidity is to know and still not doing right. So ignorance is that's like assumption is the lowest level of knowledge human beings have. So to work with that and to think you've arrived at something, it limits your capacity in order to, you know, share or open up or provide any sort of information that's valuable. Right.
01:06:04
Speaker
reflection i think reflection is very important because through that process the way you viewed something can be altered right there's a conversation that jesus has with a rich young ruler and jesus and he said what have you done he said i followed all the laws that you've provided since i was young
01:06:25
Speaker
And then Jesus said, you lack one thing, give up your wealth, come follow me. A lot of people get upset because they said, if Jesus loved him, why let him go? And I've learned sometimes loving people is loving them at a distance.
01:06:37
Speaker
That's a maturity way to love somebody, which means you don't keep babbling them, badging them to say certain things. Sometimes they have to experience something called self-reflection. And through self-reflection is when they can come and reassess what was told to them and reevaluate how they go and see the world and how they approach things moving forward. The interesting thing is crisis. And here's why crisis is a very important of measuring change is because in 2 Kings chapter 2,
01:07:07
Speaker
Verse four, there's a woman whose children are going to be sold into slavery as a result of their father's debts. And in that experience and situation, what transpires is Elijah tells her to go back into your home and find something of value. She finds olive oil. Through that olive oil, she's blessed and says find as many jars as possible. When they find all the jars that they have, the blessing of that oil enables her
01:07:35
Speaker
to pour, and as long as they have the jars, the blessing kept pouring everywhere. And as a result of that, she was able to take the olive oil, sell it, so that she can then get the rights back to the children. Sometimes in life, we don't realize the value of what we have until a crisis mostly occurs.
01:07:53
Speaker
And in that crisis moment is when you could tap into the resources you thought you never knew what you always have. When Paul was talking about doing ministry and not working a regular job, he realized the gifts, talents, and abilities. Aristotle made a statement. He said, at the intersection of life lies your gifts, talents, and abilities, and then lies your purpose. I believe God has all given us gifts, talents, and abilities. Once you tap into that gift, talent, and ability, and God utilizes that gift, talent, and ability, you then can live off of it.
01:08:22
Speaker
You can produce great things in the marketplace. A lot of these situations don't come until crisis, process moments occur, and through those moments, you then can find out not only how God has been communicating to you, but how useful those moments were needed in order to measure
01:08:43
Speaker
you know what you needed to measure in that period of time. So that's the reason why I was curious to ask that question, how do you measure change? Because yeah, I agree, change is happening all around us, but it happens in such subtle ways and it's so prevalent and obvious in the scriptures of how changes are occurring in these moments, right? I'll bring up one more thing in regards to the crisis moments.
01:09:09
Speaker
You know, Paul, at one point, and this is interesting, because I just had this conversation with a friend of mine, and we did Bible study yesterday, and it was a passage we looked at. I believe it was 2 Corinthians 7. And this I found fascinating, because I'm just like, this is an interesting perspective.
01:09:27
Speaker
But it goes, so it's 2 Corinthians chapter 7 and it says,
01:09:42
Speaker
in the fear of God. Make room in your hearts for us. We have not wronged no one. We have not corrupted no one. We have not taken advantage of no one. I do not say this to condemn you, for I say before you are in our hearts to die together and to live. I am acting with great boldness towards you. I have great pride in you. I am filled with comfort and all your affliction.
01:10:06
Speaker
I am overflowed with joy and this is interesting because this is a period in time when they're facing affliction as they pursuit to do ministry and in this moment of crisis Paul is talking about how he's rejoicing and the reason why he's talking about how he's rejoicing because no matter what portion of scripture you look at even if you look at Luke 23 or 22 when he's having a conversation with Peter when he says the devil seeks to have you
01:10:32
Speaker
He plans to seek you. He said, but I pray your faith not fail you. He said, because once you come out of that situation, that crisis,
01:10:40
Speaker
you'll be able to strengthen your brothers and sisters. So it's through that crisis, that period of affliction, you'll come up better than what you once were before. And that makes you equipped to not only assist others, but also to talk about the experience that you've had personally, right? That personal experience then equips you to be a blessing to other people. And in here, he's talking about how he
01:11:03
Speaker
is filled with comfort because he knows through that experience not only we look at Romans chapter 1 verse 12 when he says we should be musically encouraged by one another's faith and when I went back to James when he says consider it pure joy when you face trials and tribulation know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance
01:11:22
Speaker
the president finish finishes work. So you may be mature and complete not liking anything. So it's through those experience of sufferings afflictions, those moments of crisis is where that situation that you come out, you're a lot better. And that's how your faith gets strengthened. That's how change happens. And if none of that happens, then God isn't allowing us to choose him or choose ourselves in the midst of those moments and times. I believe that is, that is where God is most prevalent, right? He also tells us in Corinthians,
01:11:52
Speaker
When he says, in weakness, my power is made great. And the reason why he's saying that is because most people don't realize when you're in your weak times, that's when you're reliant on him even more.
01:12:06
Speaker
But if everything's going well, why go to God? Why talk to Him? Why have a conversation? Why build a relationship? Why need Him? God is dead, according to a philosopher. Why do I need those things? And I think ultimately this is part of the reason why God, I believe, is a God of process.
01:12:25
Speaker
Jesus to go through these ups and downs to one see that he's present regardless of how it is he was present with Jesus when Jesus did everything on the cross suffering the only time in which he hung on a cross the question was asked Lord Lord why have you forsaken me that was the only moment in time but that's why in Hebrews 4 15
01:12:47
Speaker
This is the reason why we can go to Christ, because he's been through every situation, every moment, every time. And we know that when it comes to maturity, when it comes to morality, when it comes to all those things, it's not through a natural practice, it's through a person. Which is very interesting, because we know that the gospel is a personal transformation in public or communion reform.
01:13:08
Speaker
Which means that experience that we have God did it so eloquently He did it through one person got Christ and into Christ's example We get in Corinthians 5 17 where he says he who knew no sin became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God that righteousness of God is put on us that then allows us to go to him and then God sees us differently so it's through that one do one man sin entered and
01:13:32
Speaker
And through man, one man, life is given and provided to all. So it's a very interesting perspective, but I'm very practical. So I look at it in a very practical way. And I think it's completely different from every other belief system that exists.
Wisdom, Truth, and Understanding
01:13:48
Speaker
So that leads me to ask you this question, how do you define wisdom? I think I define wisdom as
01:14:02
Speaker
I think I define wisdom as anything that allows us to see more clearly, to get closer to the truth, I guess, is wisdom. It's got to be connected to truth. And I think the reason why often people will say wisdom or like philosophy in that form is like it's seeking knowledge, right?
01:14:27
Speaker
To me, wisdom, it's an active thing, though. It's not a fixed, it's not a finite thing. Wisdom kind of gets back to a Socrates-type concept. Wisdom is being aware of the things you don't know and the things you can't see, but understanding the benefit and the drive to try and understand more.
01:14:46
Speaker
I think that concept alone is wisdom. It's not a specific topic. It's not a certain intellect or IQ level. It's not any of that. It's almost that people might think of it more as like emotional intelligence today. In some ways, it kind of looks closer to that. It's that ability to know that about yourself and therefore how you should account for that when you move through the world. I think people that have that have wisdom. And to me, that gets back to like the philosopher king concept in its purest form, at least the way I interpret it. I don't know if I interpret it correctly necessarily.
01:15:16
Speaker
what always got me so excited and I thought was so inspirational about the philosopher-king concept was it was that the people in charge would have that acknowledged. So no matter what they faced, whether it be internal to them and political strife or external attack or some hard moral crisis they have to deal with, I don't know if there's a clear right answer, but the person I want making that decision is the person that understands the brokenness we've talked about about humanity, the flaws, the limitations we have, the lack of knowledge and understanding. So they're gonna try and approach it
01:15:46
Speaker
as objectively and as best as they can. They're not going to let those things get in the way and lead them astray. They still might get it wrong, right? They still might make mistakes and do that. But in this world, as we've been talking about, which is incomplete and is a process of trying to get to something, I want the person who has that understanding of that and appreciates that part of the world, because it gives us the best chance towards the best outcome. So I think that's what wisdom kind of looks like. Paul, before you answer, how do you conjoint that with Occam's theory?
01:16:15
Speaker
meaning the idea of like Altman's razor? Yes. Okay. So as that's stated, it's the simplest answer is usually the best answer, right? Or is the answer.
01:16:24
Speaker
I actually heard about that recently. I don't know if it's true. I did look into it. Who knows what's true. That there's actually, that's like a slight misinterpretation of what he actually meant. What he actually meant was test the easiest thing first, because that'll give you the easiest way to see if that's it. Like it's the most efficient approach. So test that first and see if it's not that, then okay, you can kind of move on, but oftentimes it will be that. So look at that first, because that's the easiest one to test.
01:16:52
Speaker
So I guess if I look at it through that lens, how I bring that back to it, I think it's still about testing. It's still about that acknowledgement of we don't know. Um, in the, in the spirit or in the essence of what outcomes raise there is, I think is that it's that idea of testing because I don't have the information I need and I'm trying to find the best path to get to it or at least enough of it to get to the outcome we're trying to
God's Meaning and Life's Purpose - Q&A
01:17:12
Speaker
get. Yeah. Cause I actually, that because if, if we're doing that, wouldn't God be the answer before anything else?
01:17:19
Speaker
wouldn't God be the answer before anything else? As far as he's easiest. Well, let me ask a question back to you on that. I think you're right. I do think, I mean, I know the word God means a lot of different things to different people. I think you, all three of us in this conversation are talking about the same thing. We may have a different picture of it in our head. We may have a different perception of it. But I think at its core, we're talking about the same thing. The question I have is the process that we're talking about, right? John, you kept saying the process that we're going through, which I totally get.
01:17:47
Speaker
What is it, if you had to say in like, maybe this is a weird hypothetical or an unfair hypothetical, but like if you had two sentences to convince the world of why they should endure that process, like what is it that that process is working towards? What's the most, like,
01:18:02
Speaker
profound two-line explanation of that you can give that would get people to understand it because for me personally I still don't know that part. I want to trust in God but maybe it's the human, maybe it's the ego in me because I don't know what it's all towards. I just can't bring myself to fully trust it and maybe that's the flaw in me but is there words to it to say what that process is working towards? There's two things
01:18:27
Speaker
Actually, Paul, would you allow me? I know it's my show. But there's two ways I can answer that question. But I want to make sure, because you never know. The scripture says, any time two or three are gathered, there is an amendment. So Paul might have an easier answer. So I have an answer. But first, I want to get Paul's answer on wisdom. And then if he feels like he has a better answer, I want to see. Because I have an answer. But I want to give God an opportunity. He might have it.
01:18:56
Speaker
Well, I will say this. I agree with you on this idea of wisdom is not knowledge. It's something bigger than knowledge. Wisdom is not information. And our misstep has been that we misuse the word wise. If somebody says something that sounds good, we're like, oh, you're so wise. But wisdom, like you said, it's something deeper. It's not just that you have information, but you know how to relate with that information. You know what to do with that information.
01:19:22
Speaker
why that information is relevant, you know, when not to bring out that like, it is, it is a deeper understanding of how you interact and relate with going back to relationship, all these things. And so when you ask that, you know, that what two sentences
01:19:39
Speaker
You know, I don't know that I would be able to give that because a few reasons. One, I was recently on a podcast with somebody who identifies as agnostic atheist. And he wants, he's like, I want you to just tell me, just give it to me. And all I can think of in this moment, which he's heard a lot, but people have misused it as a get out of jail
Wisdom and Conviction in Faith
01:20:03
Speaker
card. But the versus like the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.
01:20:08
Speaker
It's this idea of what God is inviting us into is going to look like foolishness, is actually functionally foolishness. To be poised to be the greatest leader known to mankind and then to let yourself be falsely accused, beaten, and then killed on a cross
01:20:29
Speaker
Who would want to follow that? And in fact, pretty much everybody didn't want to follow that. His disciples backed off. Peter, who said at one point, you are the Son of God, the Messiah, is now like dipping when somebody says, didn't you know Jesus? And so it would be hard for me to say something that would be able to convince people because what I believe and how I'm operating my life, I am fully aware, looks foolish.
01:20:56
Speaker
I've been going without a paycheck for five years. I'm doing things that aren't producing fruit to make me the next rising star, the next big thing, the top 40 under 40. But I'm at peace with it. And so I think this is why that your question is so valuable in this space of talking about wisdom, because there's information, there's words pinned together into two sentences, but then there's something else.
01:21:26
Speaker
And it's not just wisdom for me and how I might present those words, but wisdom for the listener, right? Because now they're not just hearing words, they're hearing something that sounds foolish, but wisdom might allow them to say, but there's something that's hitting me about that. I don't know why, I don't get it. And so I don't have two sentences. I don't know that they're, I mean, Jonathan's got the two sentences. But I do think even if we had the perfect words, like this is what Jesus says too.
01:21:56
Speaker
the Pharisees are asking him, just give us a sign. He's like, essentially, I could give you all kinds of signs. It doesn't mean that she'd believe me. Because just having seeing something, just hearing something, just having information doesn't necessarily determine how we're going to relate with what we've seen, heard, or learned.
01:22:19
Speaker
So I've had time to think about it. I've had my answer, but I think it's probably reserved for two scriptures, two scriptures that address your point. But let me first say my definition of wisdom is the ability to discern and the courage to choose what is good from evil. And the reason why I say that is that discernment element really speaks to Godly wisdom, Godly discernment and Godly judgment.
01:22:41
Speaker
And I think once you get to that point, you're assessing and evaluating things and the way that you do that, it really comes from a perspective that's not in hindsight, but it really comes from a perspective that is motivational and encouragement from a source, which is God's word.
01:23:01
Speaker
So the more, the reason why I can answer certain questions the way that I can is because I believe God's Word is the plan in me that allows me to speak from his perspective, through his eyes, through his lens, not my own personal lens.
01:23:13
Speaker
And I think when it really comes down to exercising wisdom, a lot of people use wisdom in the context of experience. And I experience this valuable because even us, me and Paul, who believe in God's Word, parables are two different sides. It's a concept of walking along, which means you have a surface understanding of a parable, then you have a spiritual kingdom mindset of a parable.
01:23:38
Speaker
which means the parable is understood through the surface aspect of everyday life, through experiences of planting, growing, and any other thing that Jesus spoke in. And then there's a spiritual aspect to it, which speaks much more in a deeper, profound way. And it is various different parables that we can dive into another time if we ever do a part two. And I'm always open to sharing and showing you, hey, this is the spiritual element of it. And you see how much more realistic and practical it is.
01:24:06
Speaker
But to answer your question, right? Because that's the big thing what you're here to do. There's two ways I can answer that question. And this is something that I believe to be wholeheartedly true, because it addresses the two things that I have concerns about. So one is Ezekiel 36, 27. Or you can look at Hebrews 8, 10. In Ezekiel 36, 26, it says, and I will give you a new heart.
01:24:34
Speaker
And I will give you a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my spirit in you that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations. And you will live in Israel, the land I gave your ancestors long ago. You will be my people and I will be your God. And that's a promise through a transformational aspect that I'm talking about that God gives you, which means
01:25:00
Speaker
when it comes to an element, I know you don't like to wear submission, but when it comes to this letting go aspect and given into God, right? He then can then point you in a direction on how to maneuver and how to work in that way. And the other passage it's, it's, it's in second reading chapter five verse five. It says, now he who has made us and prepared us for this very purpose is God who gave us the Holy Spirit as a plea, a guarantee, a down payment on the fulfillment of his promise.
01:25:30
Speaker
So we're all here, our faith is all rooted in a promise.
01:25:34
Speaker
And as long as it's rooted in a promise, I believe God is not a liar. He will never leave us nor forsake us. And through that promise, I think his ways will be fulfilled, not just in people, but in us as individuals. That's why we can become ambassadors and representatives of Christ. And a lie that has to do with the changing of our heart. The reason why we look at racism and all of these different things that exist, it has to do with a heart. It's a heart problem.
01:26:02
Speaker
It's a hard issue. And what happens is, as long as you, the passage I gave you, Luke 10, 26, that says, you know, how do you read it? How do you understand it? Your prejudice and your bias, as long as that exists, you'll never be able to see clearly what God is trying to provide for you. It's like having a blindfold on.
01:26:23
Speaker
There's many people that I see but don't perceive. Maybe people that I hear and don't understand. A lot of that is rooted because it's blocked. And it's blocked because all things are reserved. I believe this is in 1 Corinthians. He says, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has understood the things that God has reserved for those who love Him.
01:26:48
Speaker
is a reservant, it's provided to those, it is revealed in a certain kind of way. So when we talk about the difference between trying to prove God and then God revealing himself, it's two different experiences. If you're trying to prove God, you're trying to prove God through intellect and reasoning, right? And God always said we can reason, there's nothing wrong with that. However, there's an element of revealment.
01:27:11
Speaker
And I tend to lean on the revealing side. And the revealing side really comes to the scriptures. That's why on the way to Damascus, he had to reveal himself in the scriptures. God doesn't have to prove anything to us. He never did. But it's rooted in the scripture. And I always keep pointing it because the book of Hosea says, my people are destroyed for lack of wisdom. For in my word is where you find my will for you. So I'm not going to find it through a person.
01:27:40
Speaker
even though they may be convincing, I'm not going to find it through a theory, an ideology, a theosophy, which is something that's an occult when people try to bring different sources of ideas together. I'm not going to find it there. I'm going to find it in his word because he sounds exactly like what he wrote, which is his word. And his spirit is one that's going to reveal it to you. And it comes because, you know, there's a passage in Galatians where he says,
01:28:05
Speaker
God will not be mocked, which means when he looks at your heart, he knows how sincere you are. So if you're not sincere and you're playing, you ain't fooling nobody. You're definitely not fooling God. You can fool us because we can't see it. That's why when I believe Samuel brought the different men, God says, I don't look at the outward appearances. I look at the heart.
01:28:29
Speaker
So if your heart ain't prepared and you're not coming convincingly, believing and trusting and having the desire, then you're not fooling anybody. So that's what, yeah, go ahead, Paul. Well, I was gonna say in that piece is something I was thinking in one of the big pitfalls for people who identify as Christians. Like, I bet you there are plenty of Christians that could give you two sentences right now.
01:28:52
Speaker
and they could say it with power and charisma. But one of the big problems goes back to what you said, Jonathan, is the difference between preference and conviction. And there are a lot of people who are engaged in Christianity, but more as a preference, and they will
01:29:08
Speaker
You know claim all the things know all the verses until suddenly hardship hits and suddenly it's tested whether they really are staking their life on what they say they're staking it on or Not and there have been plenty of people who identified as Christian who when that moment hit?
01:29:24
Speaker
They're out. I'm not like Peter. I'm willing to die for you in a blaze of glory, God, for Jesus. But this little girl asking me by the fire, do I know you? I'm not doing it like that. He had a preference for following Jesus insofar as it was the way that he wanted. And so somebody could have the perfect collection of words. But if their understanding of God is preferential and not conviction, then that's
01:29:53
Speaker
somehow you're going to sense that. Whether you realize it or not, subconsciously, I think we recognize authenticity or the lack thereof. We don't always respond quick enough to that. There's plenty of people that are falling for a lack of authenticity because somebody is convincing. But I think deep down, something that is not authentic, that it's not conviction, is going to fall apart.
01:30:21
Speaker
I think if I was forced to give two sentences, I might even say something like, I know that I would not be able to convict you with words, but I am convinced of this. It's a conviction that has shaped my life, so I encourage you to watch me and see what you see. That's what Paul basically says, is like, watch the way that I live.
01:30:44
Speaker
Which, when I was young, sounded conceited. It's like, who are you to say, watch it, follow you? But I think that's what he was saying. It's like, I can't convince you with words, but I believe this so fully. I gave up the perfect life to follow this. So, so watch me. See it. By the way, I'm not perfect. But watch how I make decisions and shape my life. And you will see just how much I believe in this thing. And maybe then it is something worth believing in.
01:31:10
Speaker
Even even my answer to your show you said what's the value? I said look God's love life and truth shine through me, right? Maybe I won't be able to say any two words But as an ambassador for Christ and as a light right you let your light shine before others so that they may glorify your father in heaven it's all rooted in in this concept of You know when we talk about faith
01:31:34
Speaker
And we talk about, you know, show me your works and I'll show you my faith as in James. It's, it's a consistent action of habits that transpired over a period of time. And it looks differently for everyone, right? It takes time, how it is to walk this Christian thing out. Right. And there's no perfect Christian if there is.
01:32:00
Speaker
Tell me where there is so that I can rebuke them, right? Because there's no such thing, right? And God understands it. That's why he said, come so that you may have life and have it abundantly. That abundance is freedom, freely. It's about figuring it out, how to balance everything.
01:32:19
Speaker
I believe me and Paul, I believe our convictions in Christ stand on his own.
Struggles with Faith and Human Suffering
01:32:25
Speaker
And I always bring up that there's a court case if you want. It's Jonas Yoda versus the state of Wisconsin in 1972. That's why I came up with the concept of a conviction versus a preference. Because in that state, this is like at the time, he wanted his children
01:32:41
Speaker
He turned his children to be homeschooled as a result of his conviction and his belief in his faith. And then guess what? He was in jail. He faced tribulation and it stood so strong that it became a national state law that your beliefs are protected under the United States, even when it comes to religious beliefs.
01:33:04
Speaker
It changed and altered the objection and projection of how your commitment to such a thing should be looked at and represented in a way that's authentic and honest. And in that way, that's the reason why you have the separation. And you can homeschool, you can do these sorts of things. It's a result of that commitment and belief and establishing
01:33:28
Speaker
fortitude when it came to him saying I'm this is what I'm gonna do and You're not going to change my mind on that and I suppose that you find out and if you have time You know pull I think illerated a little bit of it Hebrews 11 is all about the Hall of Faith and it talks about all these individuals and
01:33:49
Speaker
who got murdered, who experienced frogging, who experienced all these different things, and yet they did not see the things that we see. So that's why Jesus made it clear. He says, blessed are those who haven't seen and still believe. It's still rooted in this concept.
01:34:05
Speaker
not seen because if you can see it then why believe it it has to be operating within a realm of existence that is completely different to kind of them to this world and if it's operating in that way it takes faith and the only person that knows how to penetrate and access both realms what happened to be God and is only revealed through the concept of faith so that's kind of how it is so any finishing thoughts any ideas
01:34:32
Speaker
I'll say one quick thing. Firstly, I thank you guys a lot. I really mean that to have this conversation and to explore it so openly and freely. And, you know, I'm always worried that people please a part of me still comes in sometimes of worrying like I need to ask questions because I want to understand. I always afraid that I'm going to offend and to have a safe environment to do that genuinely and explore, but still with our convictions and our beliefs. So in a true exploring, I appreciate that a ton. And the last thing I'll say is to me, what comes of that is like I think
01:35:00
Speaker
I'll say the word issue like the issue we have an issue isn't the right word but if anything like it's communication it's words right like the words that we all use I think the essence of what we're all saying is the same and I'll tie it very directly to what you were just saying Jonathan of like faith I think at its core where I still struggle the most is and I recognize it could be ego it could be a lot of things
01:35:21
Speaker
The idea of accepting human suffering is very difficult for me. So any system, any process, any structure, any religion, any faith where it says, we have to be okay with the human suffering because it leads to a greater good. In some weird ways, it feels like that's me practicing that faith of saying, although I understand the rationale and the duality and depending on what culture you come from, the need for that suffering,
01:35:45
Speaker
I still can't bring myself to say I'm okay with it. In a weird way, I feel like that's me being loyal to God or whatever that is. And it would be easier for me to say like, okay, I get it, I'm okay with the suffering, but I don't wanna do that. And that's why I think the essence of what we're saying is all the same.
01:35:59
Speaker
We all want that goodness, right? Whatever that is at the core of that. We all just have our own ways of processing and speaking about it. To me, if anything actually came through in this conversation, so thank you for the opportunity. Yeah. Paul, any last thoughts? Yeah, it's that idea of authenticity deep down. You don't want to just say, okay, fine. Let's go for it. Or close your eyes.
01:36:20
Speaker
If I'm going to say this, it's because I'm with it or I'm choosing to be with it, even if I disagree. But anything less than that, I feel like there really are a lot of people who identify as Christian that are just kind of broadly or even rashly or blindly grabbing onto some things. And this is why, thank you for asking questions. Keep asking questions. Because there are Christians who will get offended
01:36:51
Speaker
Again, I said the same thing to Michael on The Bible Says What, the atheist versus Christian podcast, is I thanked him for asking questions because I've seen episodes where people who identify as Christian come on and get really mad or get really defensive.
01:37:08
Speaker
But if we're not willing to press into these things, then we're also not willing to acknowledge that there may be times when we're not being authentic. There may be times when we're being rash or broad sweeping or any of those things. And that's not going to be lasting. And the psalmist, Job, so many in Scripture demonstrated the beauty of asking the hard questions and sitting in the space of suffering of not having the answer.
01:37:36
Speaker
like, and wrestling with that like that, that it is okay. And so I'm grateful for this conversation. And what I hope people take away from it is like respectful dialogue that honors
01:37:50
Speaker
the dignity of the other person, we can do this. I think the three of us would be just fine hanging out and getting, there's not a huge amount of tension between us, but this is just an example of what can be applied to those spaces in which there is tension, where there are huge political or religious or whatever divides, ideological divides.
01:38:15
Speaker
that doesn't change the reality that we are actually equipped to be able to engage like this. And if more people did that, not I'm going to fight this person or I'm going to change this person or I'm going to convince this person or I'm going to dot, dot, dot. If more of us had the starting point of I'm going to honor this person or I'm going to love this person, then I think a lot of the tension we see would start to dissipate. There'd still be tension for sure.
01:38:42
Speaker
But so much of the tension that we see today is because of our unwillingness to actually love our neighbor, to actually dignify others. And we're causing our own suffering too often, and we don't need to be. Yeah. If I had any final words, I would say, when I became a believer, I think the biggest thing that people struggled with that I saw was this idea of trying to convict people.
01:39:12
Speaker
trying to get them to believe. And I had to understand that it's a personal choice. And that I, as a believer, I don't do the saving. The only one that does the saving is God, right? Now, if asked, which are the two verses I brought in the prayer of 1 Peter 3.15, always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have, but do it gently and respectfully. I think it's always something that you have to do.
01:39:43
Speaker
You know, Paul says something to Corinthians when he says another person waters, one person plants another person waters, but he gives the increase. And he's talking about the process of how someone can then can be converted. And that does not mean you are the one that's planting and watering.
01:40:02
Speaker
This conversation can be used as a bridge to another opportunity where you might meet somebody else that's more persuasive and probably has the right language and tools to lead you to Christ, right? Meaning I believe I speak for poets regardless of what conversation that went in.
01:40:19
Speaker
We believe that any environment that we walk in, we're supposed to represent God in our truest ability and form, who we are. That's what makes us different, unique, and who God has created us to be. And I think conversations like this, like you said, create spaces where people have the opportunity, where they don't have to feel judged. And there isn't a statement that's saying, you're going to hell if you don't believe what I'm saying, right? That's not our judge. We send no one there.
01:40:49
Speaker
right some may say people send themselves there whatever it is that's not our job right our job is to engage in these conversations and always learn and be ready for the next one and i think that you know that's what i got out of this conversation and you don't find out how
01:41:04
Speaker
convict what you believe is a conviction until you're willing to defend it and share it and talk about it and explore it. Because if you can't, you're in the wrong place. That means you haven't built up enough knowledge and understanding of what you believe in to then defend it.
01:41:20
Speaker
and I think rather than hiding or rather than camping out on things that are great about God and I appreciate Paul when people like to take out the great things but then they don't admire the terrible things too that people tend to be like oh yeah God's not that. I was just having a conversation in preparation for that podcast that I be on and one of the questions that I figured out in scripture and the question is, is God a killer or is he a murderer?
01:41:50
Speaker
And that question, I have an answer for it, right? But it took some time to figure it out. Is he a killer? Was he a murder? Because some would say that simultaneously the same thing, but not a natural reality, right? But thank you so much for coming on and agreeing to have this conversation. And I'll be listening to this conversation you both have. I think that would be amazing. I'll be listening. I like great conversations like this. It makes you, you know, it keeps you alive and it keeps you on your toes.
01:42:19
Speaker
and you're pulling out information in different perspectives is always great. So a poll of you don't mind. I know it's my show, but I kind of liked how you prayed out last time. So I tend to lean on you for the prayer. We'll just pull that one from the last episode.
01:42:35
Speaker
Yes, Father God, we thank You that You are God and You are good. And we thank You that You have equipped us to actually engage with others, to actually connect, that You have invited us to love others. But we forget that it can start in simple ways, like in conversation. So we thank You for this space to ask hard questions, to sit with hard concepts. And I pray for anybody that's listening, that's also asking and sitting, that they would have the sense that they are not alone.
01:43:01
Speaker
that they are not bad for having questions, having doubts. And I just pray for the ongoing conversations, whether it's between us or people who listen and have more conversations, that in that we would begin to discern more and more the difference between knowledge and wisdom, and would begin to desire wisdom. That we would desire something greater than us just having facts, but recognize there's something beyond us. That's the pyramid's holy name. Amen. Amen.