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118: A Conversation with ASSP's 2024 Outstanding Safety Educator
344 Plays3 months ago
Jill had the pleasure of speaking with ASSP's 2024 Outstanding Safety Educator, Dr. Leslie Stockel! Leslie is an associate professor of professional practice at Oklahoma State University, and teaches in the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program. She shares how her father helped her find her passion through firefighting, which lead to her experiences as a safety professional in various industries. Leslie also talks about her journey to becoming an educator and the importance of teaching safety management and prevention activities. She highlights her recent research on significant incident and fatality (SIF) precursors in incident investigation reports, revealing the lack of consistent identification and addressing of these precursors. Leslie emphasizes the need for better investigations and communication of findings in the field of safety, and also mentions her upcoming research on virtual reality scenarios related to hazard events.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:08
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded July 22nd, 2024. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer. Today, my guest is Leslie Stockle. Leslie is an Associate Professor of Professional Practice at Oklahoma State University. in Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology. Leslie holds a PhD in Technical Communication and Rhetoric from Texas Tech University, a Master of Science in Engineering Technology Management, and a Bachelor of Science in Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology from Oklahoma State University.
Influences and Education Journey
00:00:43
Speaker
Leslie, she called asked me not to call her doctor,
00:00:46
Speaker
is a certified safety professional and has a safety management specialist designation with the board of certified safety professionals. Leslie joins us today from Oklahoma. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Jill. What an introduction. I'm so thrilled to be here. Well, e know you know, my wonderful podcast producer, Emily, is an OSU grad. And she found you. So kudos to Emily for bringing someone from her alma mater onto the podcast. So really appreciate that. And so thankful that you joined us today. Go pokes. So tell us. um
00:01:28
Speaker
Tell us the landscape of your professional life. Like how did how did this all start for you? ah Well, that's ah i've I've been in safety a long time. It's a long story. I guess the best place to start is at the beginning. um My father was a firefighter in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and that's where I grew up. And I we were a fire. We weren't a firefighting family before he joined the fire department, but we certainly were one after. um he We just sort of, it was such a big part of our life growing up, you know, looking at the calendar to see what days he worked or
00:02:08
Speaker
going to the fire station to visit him when he was on duty. And when I was a teenager, the Oklahoma City Fire Department at the time had a Boy Scout Explorer Post group of teenagers you know who were interested in fire service. And my father was the um like fat ah fire department liaison for that group. And I had two older sisters. And they both were very active in that group. And so it was just sort of a natural, when you get old enough to the ninth grade, you are going to join the Explorer group. And I did. um And then, you know, I was always pretty good in math and science in school. And I had a high school teacher, my high school chemistry teacher, Mr. Cable, he said,
Career Beginnings and Industry Challenges
00:02:55
Speaker
you know, you should consider a future in engineering. And so he kind of sparked that interest in me.
00:03:02
Speaker
in engineering. And so I was thinking about different types of engineering programs, um ah you know, electrical, mechanical, the usual. And then my dad came to me one day and said, you know, at Oklahoma State University, they have a program for fire and safety engineering. and I was like, wow, okay, so this is two worlds of my interest kind of coming together. So, you know, we did a couple of campus visits, talked to some people, and then what really sealed the deal for me was I read this article in Omni Magazine, and this is, we're talking 1983,
00:03:40
Speaker
three okay? I read this article that said that health, the safety, and environmental careers are going to be the next big thing. Interesting. so that that was kind of the That was the that was the you know the final bow on the on the package for me to choose it. um The other thing that was interesting about that decision was ah you know my father was a firefighter. My mother was a stay-at-home mom who had various other jobs along the way, and but there were five kids in our family. and so We were not rich by any means of the imagination.
00:04:18
Speaker
Um, also my mother had a lot of health issues. Um, and so, you know, we were looking for affordable ways, you know, to go to college. My older two sisters actually ended up not going to college in that traditional sense, but it was always sort of given that I would go. Uh, and I think it was just because, and I'm going to use air quotes. You can't see me, but I was the smart one, right? In a family dynamic. And so at OSU at that time, 1980 in the middle eighties. They had a program where if you were in the fire protection safety engineering technology major, you could live in the campus fire station ah free of charge in exchange for working as kind of a part paid volunteer firefighter for the city of Stillwater Fire Department.
00:05:07
Speaker
Now Emily probably knows this because she's been to our beautiful campus, but on the corner of our campus, we have a beautiful old fire station. yeah three Three stories with a red brick with window dormers and ah and a hose tower in the back. It's a beautiful building. ah That was where the School of Fire Protection was and also the student dormitory. and And also the city of Stillwater had an active working fire station in this building to serve you know the campus and surrounding community. and so So they have this program where you could live there for free.
00:05:45
Speaker
um the only You just had to work as a part paid volunteer. and so Lucky for me, in 1984, they had just opened up space
Corporate Transition and Safety Leadership
00:05:55
Speaker
for women because prior to 1984, women were not allowed to live in the fire station. They did not have ah sleeping or showering facilities for women. ah and so Thanks to another woman who was ah about a year before me, she had come to school and said, hey, I want to live in the fire station. And they told her, well, you can't. And she said, well, title nine. And so they had to renovate some rooms and make space for women. And then she ended up not even going to school there after they made all those renovations. But then that was good for me, though, because but when I got there, the rooms were all set and it was all ready to go. So we were the first.
00:06:39
Speaker
I was not the first, I was the second. In between those times, another woman, she came and she spent a couple of years at school there. She didn't end up graduating, but she was actually the first woman to live there. um And then she moved on to do other things. And so I was the second. wow so Leslie how did you get how when did the firefighter training come I mean you're you you're in you're in a program you've agreed to to be part of the of the fire service on campus but you also hadn't been a firefighter previously so how did you get like how did all of that training go down in addition to being a student
00:07:19
Speaker
Sure, sure. um So we had to report to the campus a week before regular classes. okay And we had to go through a very intensive week-long training with for basic essential firefighter skills. Now I did have some skills because I had been a fire explorer when I was a fire explorer with the teenagers. We were allowed to respond to large multi-alarm fires and support the firefighters in Oklahoma City. And so I had done that for several years. And so I had some basic skills. I mean, I could roll a hose. I could fill a self-contained breathing apparatus with air. I could you know drag equipment. I knew what the basic equipment was. you know um I had never fought fire. They wouldn't let the teenagers do that because it was too dangerous. But but we were I was around it enough. I had a basic understanding. But yeah, I had to report to early.
00:08:15
Speaker
And we just went through a very intensive training for one week. It was funny because at the same time the fraternities and the sororities were doing their rush activities and They would be out on campus and I would see girls, you know, and back then they were the Laura Ashley dresses with the hair bows, right? And we were, we were out there, you know, in the heat of August of Oklahoma, dragon hose, wearing 30 pounds of bunker gear. And, you know, it was fun, but it was also pretty tough. So but that's how I did that. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So just.
Life Changes and Career Reevaluation
00:08:50
Speaker
to continue that story you know we found about this program it all seemed great you know it was a way to pay for room and board i also got some academic scholarships to help with tuition so it was pretty my first two years of college were pretty much ah very affordable for my family so that was another reason why that pushed me to that decision but i did have a last minute called feet um Maybe about a month before school started, i see because I had never lived away from home before. and I kind of got scared and I went to my parents and I said, I don't want to do this. um man and I said, why can't I just live at home and go to community college you know for two years and then we'll see what it looks like at the end of that.
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah. My parents were very smart and they wouldn't let me do that. um they My two older sisters had done that and they ended up you know not kind of finishing college at that time. They both went on to do other things and very successful later, but they, my parents kind of thought, if she doesn't go, she probably won't ever go. and So they wouldn't let me do that.
00:10:02
Speaker
Thank you, mom and dad, right? Yeah, yeah. And so in when August rolled around and we moved up there, I was terrified. you know I was going to be the only girl, because actually I was 17. I hadn't had my 18th birthday yet. um I was 17. I'm going to be living in this fire station. with 20 boys that I don't know, it was I was just terrified. I would have been scared too. Yeah, but the funny thing about it was after two weeks, my parents couldn't get me to come home. The best. that that's That's every parent's dream, right? like You drop your kid off at kindergarten and you hope yours isn't the one that's hanging on your leg and screaming. You want them to run in and don't look back and you're the one left feeling sad, right?
00:10:51
Speaker
right So yeah your parents were probably like, oh, thank you. Yeah. I came home after that first week. I mean, cause you know, for me, it was, I was so far away from home, yeah but I mean, from Oklahoma city to Stillwater is about 75 miles. But for me, I was an eternity away from home. So I went home after that first weekend after training. yeah And I think I went home the next weekend because it was you know it was like Labor Day weekend or something. And then after that, I think in October, my mom called me and said, hey, when are you coming home again? you know Because I was having such a great time. The the boys that I lived with, the men, the young men that I lived with,
00:11:38
Speaker
We're fantastic. We became a family. You know, I was a little sister. um And some of those guys now, you know, we're all in our 50s and 60s now. and they are some of my lifelong friends, you know lifelong work colleagues, lifelong friends. you know You just bond in that experience and it was amazing. So that's how I got there. um Originally thinking that I would lean towards the fire protection engineering side of things, but as I got into the program and started learning, started taking classes,
00:12:14
Speaker
I realized I had a real affinity for the people aspect of the business and that was the industrial safety part of it. At the time, we were very our our program was very popular with oil and gas and petrochemical companies and manufacturing companies, still is. in here um And
Academic Career and Teaching Philosophy
00:12:34
Speaker
so I got a couple of internships with a major oil company over the summers. And then then it just once I did those internships, I realized how much I enjoyed just the the the safety part of the degree.
00:12:50
Speaker
Because it A, it dealt with people, it was solving problems, it was more holistic. I mean, I tell my students now, it's not fire protection or safety, it's fire protection and safety. I've done fire protection work in every safety job I've ever had. and yeah But I just felt that at the time, and to this day I even think, this the just the whole the whole pat package of safety really appealed to me. And so that's kind of why I went that way after college. so well And the program that you were doing really had an emphasis on, you know, broadly prevention activities and reaction activities, which really is, you know, the crux of our, of our, you know, of our profession. Obviously prevention is key. We don't want things to happen, but when they do,
00:13:45
Speaker
Um, as in there's a fire, right you know, we, we need both in our practice. And so, right and so it sounds like you found balance in that. Right. Well, and even, you know, fire protection systems, yeah every job I've ever had, my title had the word safety in it. But inevitably, there would be a problem. Hey, we've got a halon system that we don't know what to do with. Or hey, our fire water system is inadequate. And then they would look at me because I graduated from Oklahoma State University. And if I couldn't figure it out, I knew people to call, right? We have a very vast alumni network of people in all walks of the industry. and i get
00:14:30
Speaker
send out an email right now and have 15 answers in about 15 minutes. So that's wonderful. Yeah. So you had your internships in oil and gas. What was that first job after you graduated? Well, interestingly that you asked that question. So I did these two internships with ah with a major oil company. and I graduated in 1989 and the price of oil in the spring of 1989 dropped to about $8 a barrel. And so this company that was, was very aggressively trying to hire me for full time employment after my internships, you know, said,
00:15:07
Speaker
sorry, we don't have any jobs. We're like, you know, and that was one of those big first lessons of, you know, when you're in college, you think, Oh, yeah, I'm going to get this job in my life is going to be perfect. And, and I'm just going to have this steady upward progression of of success. And then these things that we can't control kind of sets back, right? Yep. and So that was a a disappointment, but you know OSU is always very highly sought after, even for from back then into this day. And so I went through the university recruiting processes and I got a job with ah a paper manufacturing company. And so and they hired they also hired many of our students.
00:15:50
Speaker
And so I
PhD Research and Safety Innovations
00:15:51
Speaker
got a job with them and I worked in paper mills for the next seven years as a safety engineer, safety supervisor, you know, yeah heavy, heavy manufacturing, that's right heavy union environments. I would say I really cut my teeth on safety in that job. There were very hard days. I had to investigate fatalities. I had to deal with OSHA compliance inspections. I had to deal with the difficulties that come from a, you know, let's call it, I'm trying to be diplomatic here, a tense labor ah management relationship. um But it was, you know, at the time I was like, oh my gosh, this is so hard. This is so terrible. But now I look back on it and think, wow, what an education I got, you know.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean every every possible hazard exists in a paper mill. Oh, absolutely. It's basically a chemical plant with a but the logging operation on one end and a warehouse operation on the other. you know Yeah. and And all the industrial hygiene things and the safety things and the fire protection things. Yeah. Yeah. Were you safety management everything yeah were you wearing a rescue um respirator on your on your hip in those days when you're in the plant? Yeah. The little acid gas mouthpiece thing. Yeah, we had those. Yeah. yeah
00:17:13
Speaker
Oh my gosh. When I started my job with OSHA and the first time that I went into a paper mill and they, you know, gave me that I'm like, Oh, wow. You know, think work yeah this is this is serious. Pay attention to your exits. Yeah. athlete Well, you know, one of the biggest things I wasn't really aware of was H2S gas. I mean, I knew about it from oil and gas, but I learned very quickly that the pine wood pulping process generates H2S gas. We had as big a H2S gas problems as any oil and gas company did. you know Yeah. yeah you know My home state of Minnesota has plenty of paper mills and and you you can smell them and you know what that is.
00:17:58
Speaker
You know, we always use the joke and say, well, that smells like my paycheck. ah That's right. That's right. Oh, man. Okay, so seven years in the in the pulp and paper industry, what happens next? um I just, you know, I kind of always wished I was that was kind of a regret that I didn't get the opportunity to work in oil and gas and I was kind of always hoping to get back into that industry. And so an opportunity came along for me to go to work for a pretty major petrochemical company on their chemical side. um And so at the time, so this is like 1992 and behavior-based safety was all the rage then. And so we had done some implementations of behavior-based safety where I worked. And so I was recruited by a company to join their corporate group.
00:18:49
Speaker
to kind of lead their behavior-based safety programs. And so so I did that. i you know I took the job and I moved up to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I will say my te at my paper job, the last paper place I was at was Texas. I spent the longest in in East Texas. and so and Then I had this opportunity to move to Philadelphia wow to work in a corporate headquarters for a ah big but a chemical company. and so It seemed like a good upward step for me for my career, so I decided to take it. Great shift for you to leave to leave the Oklahoma, Texas area and go to Pennsylvania. Yeah, it was a big step.
00:19:32
Speaker
um And it was, you know, I, the job was great. I love the job, but, um, I didn't love living in Philadelphia. And it was like 95% travel and, uh, which you think is going to be fun and exciting and glamorous. Until you do it. Yeah. Until you do it for any period of time and then you realize it's not. And so I only was in that role for about a year. because a couple things happened. A, i I was not very happy. I was single. I lived in Philadelphia, but I knew not a soul in Philadelphia because I was traveling all the time.
00:20:13
Speaker
And the company was actually got bought out by another company. And then I didn't get laid off, but if they were, you know, it was, the writing was on the wall. yeah It was all coming and nobody knew what was, you know, who was safe and who wasn't. And I just wasn't happy living there and I wasn't happy traveling all the time. And I was getting close to 30 and I was just like, I need to reevaluate my life and what I want to do and where I want to be. And so I started looking for other opportunities. Yeah. And what, what did you find? Well, it was kind of, again, funny story. This could be a FedEx commercial. I know okay i was just on the, and so the now we have the internet, right? It's like 1996 and the internet is brand new and I'm on the internet. I read an article back home in Oklahoma about this labor commissioner who has been like,
00:21:07
Speaker
Oh, you know, blowing the lid off of government corruption and and corruption in the labor industry and construction and and she's, you know, this fire, you know, firecracker of a person. site So I went and looked at their website and then sure enough, they had this OSHA consultation program and they had an opening for the director of the OSHA consultation program. Oh, wow. And I thought, well, that sounds like a job that's interesting and and and another step up in the progression of a career. And also this lady seems like somebody that, um the kind of person that I would like to work for, someone who fights for truth and justice and, yeah and ah you know, and uncovering and eliminating corruption and it's in my home state. bonus I call their office and they're
Ongoing Research and Future Directions
00:22:00
Speaker
like, yeah, but the deadline applies two days from now. I'm like, oh crap.
00:22:05
Speaker
Uh-huh. Because we didn't have the internet, you know, instant send things and you still had to fill out applications. You still had to submit paper copies of resumes. Put a stamp on stuff. Yeah. Okay. So I called my parents. My parents come through for me again. I called my parents. They go down to the office, pick up all the paperwork, FedEx it to me. ah I get it the next day. I fill it out at the FedEx place. I already have my resume ready to go. And then I turn right around and FedEx it back. And got it got there in time. And you got the job. and And then I got the job. Yeah. So anyway, so that was good. That that was my homecoming, you should say. And it's funny because in your life, life is a journey, right? You never know what's going to happen. I said, okay, I'm moving home. I'm moving back to Oklahoma. I'm not going to travel like that anymore. And I'm not ever moving out of Oklahoma again.
00:22:59
Speaker
yeah famous last word Yeah, right. No wonder how did that work out for you? yeah
00:23:07
Speaker
So I just have to back up. You said the consultation job that you applied for was the director of OSHA consultation. Is that what you got? Is that? Yes. Oh, wonderful. Okay. Yes. Yeah. How long? oh Department of Labor. I was there for four years. We had ah the consultation program, which is, as many people know, is a it's a cooperative agreement between states and federal OSHA to provide no cost consultation safety and health consultation services for small business. We had a staff of about 30.
00:23:40
Speaker
oh ah you know, safety consultants and industrial hygienists, and and they did that in Oklahoma. But we also had a small public sector enforcement division because in Oklahoma, federal issue did not have jurisdiction over public work sites like city, county, public schools, et cetera. And so the state had its own separate law, it was called PIOSH. And so we ran the the enforcement program for that as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, having an OSHA job is really, an I mean, speaking from my own personal experience, an excellent way to see the landscape of the American workforce. And you get to see lots of different places where human beings work and the conditions in which they work.
00:24:27
Speaker
Well, in small businesses especially. I mean, the vast majority, especially in Oklahoma, the vast majority of businesses in Oklahoma are small businesses, you know, less than 250 employees. And so, you know, these people don't have the resources, you know, like these big oil and chemical and and manufacturing companies do. yeah And so yeah it was very satisfying uh to to when i would hear the story so i was the director so that meant i was in administration and leadership my job was to hire people fire people train people you know evaluate people set policy all this you know go out and we were doing this public information campaign
00:25:08
Speaker
So I went around and made a lot of speeches and with politicians and my boss, the the the commissioner of labor was an elected official. And so my job was not a political appointment type job, but I ended up you know spending a lot of time with her doing those kinds of things to promote the idea of workplace safety. yeah But it was very satisfying when I would hear you know companies come and just sing the praises of our consultants. you know, in all the ways that they helped them and we did we had a staff of really good consultants. um Oklahoma is fortunate that we have five colleges in our state that have safety degrees of some kind. Oh my gosh, easy to find. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And so we, we had some really good folks and they did some really good work and it was very satisfying.
00:25:59
Speaker
to hear the stories after the fact, you know? Like the VPP program or the SHARP awards program. You would hear those stories and it would be very satisfying. So you thought you were staying in Oklahoma for keeps. What derailed you and did it happen to be a supposed to? Yeah, okay. I figured that was coming. Okay. ah notice I noticed I hadn't been home, I think I moved back home in May. And in June, I met a young man who was in the Air Force and he was stationed at Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City. And, you know, he ended up, we were celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary this September, so. Oh, congratulations. Yeah, yeah. And so being with someone who's in the service meant you move around a little bit, I suspect. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, so we dated for a couple of years and then we decided to get married and then
00:27:03
Speaker
had you know had some children and during that time he you know in the he was an officer in the in the United States Air Force and so at some point you're going to get a permanent change of duty station. So after after being at the Labor Department for four years, um we got assigned to move out to Las Vegas. And so I was sad. That was like, you know, that leaving the Department of Labor was a very sad moment. It was good, but sad. I just was, I loved the people so much. And it was just a really, it was a really bittersweet time to leave, I think. um But we, you know, have to go. So we moved out there. And then I actually got a job pretty quick with an insurance company.
00:27:52
Speaker
um Just doing general like workers comp risk assessments in small small bit a lot of bars and small casinos in Las Vegas But then 9-11 happened So 9-11 happened we were living in Las Vegas my husband was active duty Air Force um This life changed for everyone, you know, everything everything changed on 9-11 and And so I didn't change jobs once while we were out there. I moved over to the water utility looking for so and again to try not to travel so much because now I had babies, yeah you know.
00:28:33
Speaker
And just the work pace, trying to maintain a work pace with children. And then when you put your kids in daycare, they get sick a lot. you know They get ear infections and they get respiratory infections. and And somebody's got to be around. And if you have two two traveling spouses, it doesn't work. Right, exactly. And my husband, you know, he just, you know, I mean, we were at war. And so yeah his workplace change, he never, well, not during that period of time, he didn't deploy overseas, but just everything changed. And I think after my son got pneumonia the third time,
00:29:08
Speaker
Um, I was like, that was one, again, one of those moments in life when you realize, okay, I have to reevaluate my life and make decisions, you know, that are different. And I decided that, um, I was not going to work and I was going to be a stay at home mom, uh, and take care of my kids. And so I did that now. I say I did that, but I, I often joke that, you know, being in the safety is like being in the mafia, you know, once they, they never let you leave. I've not heard that comparison, but yeah, okay I'm gonna go with it. Yes never let leave I've tried to leave a couple of times and people just won't let me um
00:29:47
Speaker
you know, people started calling me saying, Hey, we hear you're not working. Can you do X or can you teach a class or can you write this manual or can you develop this training? And so, you know, it was a way to bring in some extra money. yeah Um, and so I, that's when my consulting career was born. And so I started doing some consulting on the side of taking care of my kids, yeah mostly training related, you know, writing, either writing training curriculum or, delivering training, you know, where when it would fit into my schedule. who I started speaking at conferences then. And, um you know, so just it was it was definitely a side gig, because I was doing it, you know, sort of as ah as a way to make extra money while I was a stay at home mom. But it was also during that time that I got the idea to become a college professor. Okay.
00:30:40
Speaker
I actually had one of my, he wasn't a professor when I was in school, but he was a professor at Oklahoma State that I'd really gotten to know, a guy named JD Brown. He was a professor at OSU in the nineties and two thousands. And when I was at the labor department, he and I served on a couple of committees together. So we kind of got to know each other and, and he's like, you know, you should get your master's degree. And then you can teach college classes. And you know the college schedule very closely mirrors the elementary and secondary education schedule. And that would really work well for your family. Work-life balance. There we go. And I said, oh, interesting. So I started looking into graduate programs. And I found the Master's of Engineering and Technology Management at Oklahoma State. It was an online program, one of the very first.
00:31:35
Speaker
online master's degrees. And of course I had love OSU and that was it just seemed like it was a perfect fit. And so I started that like in 2001. um And then it took me about five years because I would only take two classes a semester and I would only do it in the summer, not in the summer. I would, I would not take classes in the summer. Yeah. And then, um, so I just kind of started plugging away at it. And then after five years, I finished it. Um, so yeah, while, while my, I would, you know, I put my kids to bed and I, they would send me VHS tapes. but Yeah. VHS tapes of the lecture.
00:32:15
Speaker
and but After I put my kids to bed, I would watch my lectures and do my homework and do my reading and write my papers and I did all that at night and the when the boys were a little. so yeah So 2005, I graduated with that degree. And about that same time, we moved again. ah But we moved we moved back to Oklahoma. So that was happy. yeah yeah Because my husband was in AWACS, which is ah an air a special airplane, the radar airplane that the Air Force has. And they are home based out of Tinker Air Force Base.
00:32:48
Speaker
so So all roads always lead back to Tinker when you're in AWAC. So we came back to Oklahoma and I was still kind of in stay-at-home mom mode, part-time safety consultant mode. When we came back, I even went back to the Labor Department and worked kind of as a part-time legislative liaison for that same commissioner. um I would say if if I had to make a list of the all the jobs I had and which one was the worst, that was it. um I did not like being a legislative liaison. It was horrible. Like going to the legislature and trying to talk to state representatives and senators to get them to you know fund your department or or pass the bill you wanted them to pass. and
00:33:31
Speaker
That was just not a job that I enjoyed or was good at I mean talk about having to sell health and safety quickly and succinctly Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're an educator now. There was That's a really that's a really hard thing to do you know and in technical educator I will drown you in details, right? um guys and These guys they don't want details, you know, you got to make a three-minute elevator pitch and I I couldn't do it. It was awful. I couldn't do it. i was just That job I failed at most definitely. Tried and lessons learned. Yeah, yeah, you know. yeah but um So there, you know, I just continued sort of being a part-time safety consultant and full-time mom for about 10 years, working, you know, just whatever job kind of came my way. But then at some point OSU called me again, JD called me.
00:34:29
Speaker
And he said, hey, we need an adjunct professor to teach one of our classes here. Would you be interested? And I bet that and I have my master's now. So I'm like, oh, yes, I would love that. Yeah. So I did. So that was in like 2006. I taught my first college class, safety management class. here at OSU. I taught it in the evenings and um I loved it. I thought it was great. I had a fantastic time. I learned many, many years later that the students didn't love it. Oh no, who is the brave who is the brave person that told you that?
00:35:07
Speaker
Well, once I started working here full time, I found my old evaluations that they never shared with me. Thank God they never shared them with me though, because if I had read those, then I probably never would have taught another college class. oh ah And now now I have some understanding and perspective on undergraduate student evaluations. and so Sure, you have to kind of take them with a grain of salt. Sure, but yeah, but i had a fantastic time. Yeah, so fast forward to today you are ah you are a professor in the program. Tell us about what that's like or what the program is like today, particularly for
00:35:48
Speaker
um People who are listening, I mean, you've already dropped that Oklahoma has five campuses. You are ah one of them that that create the EHS professionals of tomorrow. What is that? Yeah, what is it like? And what's it like for you? um Well, so, you know, Oklahoma State University, we are an R1 research university, which if I was going to, you know, speak in athletic equivalence, that's like being a D1 football program. Gotcha. um We're a very large university. We're a very traditional university, brick and mortar. we are We have very traditional students. Most of our students come right out of high school.
00:36:28
Speaker
um For me, it was kind of a dream. you know I went back and forth and taught at some other schools over the years, but am i my desire was always to come back and teach at OSU. Once I got into this idea that I could teach college. If you had asked me that when I graduated from college, I would have said, oh, no. um but But once I kind of grew into it, I loved it. And so my day, I usually teach you know four to five four three to four classes a semester. um I range anywhere from teaching basic safety like intro to safety and safety management to process safety, chemical process safety, risk control,
00:37:14
Speaker
This semester coming up, I'm teaching our introduction, kind of our intro class for freshmen, fire protection and safety, hazard recognition, and then also I'm teaching an electrical safety course. ah And then I'm teaching, so we've, in the last couple of years, we've launched an online program to reach out to those more non-traditional students. So I'm teaching an online introductory course. But I've also taught and ergonomics. i've taught We have a senior research project capstone class. I've taught that. you know so' not I kind of just teach whatever they need me to teach. i Probably the only class I probably have no business teaching is fire dynamics.
00:37:57
Speaker
but You know, that's pretty, pretty, pretty heavy on the, on the technical stuff. Right. Right. Right. And you know, when we were talking before the recording, you were telling me that the the program that you teach is accredited with ABET. So for people who aren't familiar with what that means and what the important leverage that is, can you explain that to the audience? I think it's just so fascinating. Yeah, so ABET is ah the it's the American or the Accreditation Board for Engineering Technology Programs. And so this is just a third party accreditation service that comes in and makes sure that, you know, to be an engineering and technology degree plan, we are teaching, you know, students at a very high level.
00:38:47
Speaker
And we are teaching them all the things that they need you know to be a practicing engineer or engineering technologist. and We get evaluated every four years on our curriculum. They you know they send a team in and they look at our learning objectives, our learning outcomes. and And we have to kind of prove it with statistics. So we have to track these things over each cycle. And we have to make sure that you know we're teaching the right subjects and the right topics with any subject. and then there's And then we're also making sure that students can demonstrate the outcomes that they are learning. They have what they call the A through K outcomes, which are you know things like the student can you know calculate
00:39:31
Speaker
ah problems or solve problems through science and technology and calculation. um There's also an ethics component, so we have to teach ethics to our students. In addition to all kind of the technology, the technical things that we teach them, such as you know dropped objects and rigging calculations along with fluid mechanics and ah you know water pressure loss calculations and industrial hygiene calculations, we do all of that. But ABET, that group is sort of a third party validator to make sure that you know we are doing the things that we say that we do. so Right. and I mean, it's a big deal for someone who is an engineer to say that they came from an institution that's ABET accredited. That's a big deal. Yeah, correct. In order to sit for a professional engineering license exam, you have to have graduated from an ABET accredited school.
00:40:24
Speaker
yeah so that's Yeah, it is a big deal. um How many people are in your program every year about students? we have Right now we currently have about 150 students. We've ranged, I think our max we ever have was like 400 and we were pretty full. and COVID, we had kind of a COVID dip like everybody else. Right now we're sitting at about 150. Wow, that's fantastic. ah got like got like 50 something incoming freshmen this year. So that's encouraging. yeah And then I mean, we've grown over the years. I think when I was in school, there were 15 in my freshman class and I graduated with five. ah one And then over the years, you know, we kind of have ebbed and flowed and grown and shrank. And so right now we're at about 150.
00:41:12
Speaker
That's fantastic. And we have seven full-time faculty members. and And you, among those faculty members, was a just named Outstanding Safety Educator of 2024 with ASSP. I was. How does that happen? I mean, do they do are you like you know you're waking up one morning and your phone rings and they say, hey, guess what? like that's and um That's fantastic. Well, there's there's a nomination process. ok And I'm thrilled to say that I had two students who were officers of our ASSP student chapter here, of which I am the faculty advisor. and They submitted an application on my behalf, including letters of endorsement from like our department head. and
00:42:01
Speaker
um I think maybe the president of our local chapter, I can't remember, but anyway, they are so sweet. These two students were so sweet and kind and they submitted a very beautiful, beautiful nomination. It made me cry because sometimes, you know, we only hear the bad stuff, right? I mean, there are students that don't care for me. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. I think sometimes I'm a little ah I'm tough, you know, i expect I have high expectations and I expect, because what we do is serious, right? And and I have passion for it. and And I understand having worked in the industry, how serious it is. And so i I would say I am a tough instructor, but I'm also a loving instructor. I love all my students, but I do have high expectations for them. So anyway, these two students, they submitted an application on my behalf and wrote a beautiful nomination letter.
00:42:52
Speaker
and And yeah, I got picked. So when Jim, I think his his name was Jim, the president of ASSP when he called me to tell me I did start i started crying. but And so my husband was like, what's wrong? What's wrong? And you know I couldn't even talk. So. Congratulations. Congratulations. It's a big honor. And you know I mean, it's it's just sweet. I really do love my students and I'm very passionate about helping them learn. but But some days we struggle and some days we have challenges. And so for them to do to take the time out of their sketch busy semester to submit that on my behalf was really, really special to me. So and what an honor to come from the students. Yeah. So will you be at the national conference? Is there an award ceremony or how does that work?
00:43:46
Speaker
Yes, i ah first question, I will be at the conference because prior to even learning about this, I had ah been accepted to be a speaker. So I am speaking at the conference. But yeah, I'll be there. And there is some kind of an awards presentation, I think, on Tuesday evening. i don't they Years ago, ASSP would, at the main, you know the the big opening sessions, they would bring out all the award recipients. I don't know that they do that anymore. They think they stopped doing it during COVID and then they resumed it. But, you know, I'll be around. I'll be, you know, um um we have
00:44:23
Speaker
We have a booth and i you know I'll be wandering around the conference center. so Well, i hope i hope to see you I hope to see you there. I'll be there as well. Yeah, I'll be there. I'll come by and see you for sure. Wonderful. And same. same i yeah what I want to come to your to your university's booth. That'll be great. In the introduction, Leslie, I mentioned that you also have your PhD, which sounds like it's something newish for you. um And you were mentioning your PhD research to me when we had our pre-chat. I'd love for you to share a little bit about that. And and also, um when did you finish your PhD?
00:45:00
Speaker
Okay, yeah, sure. So i start my PhD is in technical communication and rhetoric from Texas Tech University. And I just actually finished it last summer in 2023. I started it in 2019 before the pandemic. um you know If you're a full-time faculty member at a major university, you know there is a hierarchy. yeah and and I was not required to get a PhD for the job because my job title is Professor of Practice, which means my years of experience are are what's valuable for the job. But you know i kind of after I finished my master's 15 years prior to that, I i wanted to continue on.
00:45:45
Speaker
for a PhD and I just never did. And so after being on faculty for a couple of years and a couple of my colleagues had finished up their PhDs and I'm just like, you know what? I'm just gonna do it. Take me five years and I'll be 56 years old when I graduate, but you know what? I'm gonna be 56 years old either with a PhD or without a PhD and a lot of regret. So I'm just gonna do it. So I found this program at Texas Tech and again I needed it to be online because of the life schedule yeah and they did and and so I started it before the pandemic but we were doing zoom classes and zoom meetings and all that before the pandemic ever started and then when the pandemic happened we just kept going you know and
00:46:32
Speaker
So, nose to the grindstone, that's what I did during the pandemic. I got a PhD. It took me four years. That's fantastic. And I mean, how interesting that your master's degree was online before online was a thing. Your PhD was online before every single person was doing everything online. Yeah, that's fabulous. Yeah, yeah. It is interesting how that worked out. And you weren't getting VHS tapes mailed to you. No, no. Yeah. you know I sat in front of a Zoom window every three nights a week for three hours, you know, wow listening and talking and doing discussions and things, and writing papers and whatnot. So yeah. Yeah. So my degree is in technical communication and rhetoric, which is basically an English degree, but I chose it for a very specific purpose because one thing I realized trying to teach
00:47:29
Speaker
young engineers is that they struggle with writing and communicating their ideas. and um you know It's great to be a very smart, technical person, but if you can't communicate and get those ideas across, then you're What am I trying to say? you're you know Your technical proficiency will go and unnoticed, right? right so So that's why I chose it. um And then you know i it was a very interesting degree. There are a lot of people a lot of people in that program doing a lot of different things. It was very diverse. We had a lady in my cohort, she actually did her PhD research on using emoji for neurodivergence who are nonverbal.
00:48:16
Speaker
wow And I thought, at first, when she goes, oh, I'm doing my dissertation on emoji, you know I had to really control the eye roll, right? but But when she started talking about it, and I was like, oh my gosh, it was so interesting. And then she actually just published a book on it. So you know it was so we were very diverse. ah But but i was very I got some good advice from the dean of engineering here at OSU when I started it. He said, don't go into it with a preconceived notion of what you want to do your dissertation on.
00:48:46
Speaker
Because that's where people get into problems because they're trying to make something fit and it doesn't fit. Yeah, and it takes consumes all of your thought process, like, I'm learning this, how can I modulate it for that? Okay. Fighting fighting with your committee to do that thing that you had a preconceived notion about. So I did, I was like, I have no idea what I'm going to do my dissertation on when I started. And then as he he said, he goes, it will unfold to you, I promise you. and so I was in the program and I actually took a class on risk communication because I thought, oh, this will be easy because I do this all the time, right? Well, it wasn't easy. but And i did I did learn a lot. and and and i And I met this professor there who was kind of an expert in risk communication and he and I kind of struck up the ah a work ah relationship, an academic type relationship. And then he ended up being my chair, my committee.
00:49:45
Speaker
And then he really guided me. and so And it all worked out because in the end, I was able to do my research on a safety related topic, which is what I really wanted to do in the first place. I just didn't commit to it at first, right? It was kind of that idea that I had in my head, but I didn't commit to it because you know the Dean here told me not to. and So my topic was, I wanted to study basically, so technical communication, you're looking at documents, you're looking at technical documents and how they are used to communicate things, right? got And I thought, well, I want to do something with incident investigation documents.
00:50:23
Speaker
Because over my career, I have and investigated many events. I have filled out many incident investigation forms. I have reviewed many final investigation reports, and I think there's something there. that we can talk about. um And my chair agreed. so So we did that. And then I also, of course, what's hot right now is this idea of the SIF, significant incident and fatality. So I kind of wanted to marry those two things together, which is what I did. so So my research process was I looked at a series of incident investigation reports from three different sources, one of them OSHA fatality investigations,
00:51:07
Speaker
which I got through FOIA from OSHA. The second data group was um incident investigations that have been curated on NIOSH's fatal accident page. they call it They're called face reports. And then the third set was through our alumni network, i was I was able to work a partnership with a pretty large ah energy sector corporation who allowed me access to their incident investigation database on the condition that I keep them anonymous. um and so I did that. so I had three different and unique sets of of data data sets. and so i just you know I got all these fatal investigation reports and I started doing an a research method called content analysis, where you go through and you read the language. You you don't just read the text and count the numbers of things that happen. You actually look at the language that's used and the meaning that's derived from that language.
00:52:12
Speaker
and so that's what I did um and so yeah it worked out pretty well actually I came up with some some pretty interesting findings um please I mean do could you share some of the findings obviously this is a you know this is your entire research project and yeah this yeah what yes what are some key things that you'd like to share about your research it's so fascinating so the first thing was that You know, everyone's talking about s SIF, Significant Incident and Fatality. and and And then when I started doing my searching, the first thing you do in research is you look at what what else has been written and studied about it. There's been a lot, but it's all, there was a wide variety of definitions of, first of all, what is an incident
00:52:58
Speaker
and face serious incident and fatality, a lot of variety in the definition of just that term. And then also the individual precursors, because we talk about SIF precursors, which are those things that are happening that lead to an SIF. And there was not even consistent categorization of ah s SIF precursors across the previous studies. And there was not real clear definitions of what those things were. So that was kind of my first task, was to come up with a set of pretty clear definitions of what they were. And then my second question was, well, three questions really. The second question was, are we even identifying these precursors in the accident investigations themselves? And the third question was,
00:53:47
Speaker
When we recommend corrective actions, are we addressing either the root causes or the SIF precursors? So those are my research questions. And so what I found was but for i there There was not a consistent ah sort of, let's call it a taxonomy of ah s SIF precursor categories with really clear definitions. So I kind of created one. The second thing is, are SIF precursors identified in the investigative data? And the answer was no. I don't think I, heard I think it was less than 1%. All of the reports are reviewed.
00:54:26
Speaker
called out an SIF precursor by name. Never happened, right? I'm not surprised. yeah then And then the third question was, are the corrective actions being recommended correlated to either the SIF precursors or the causes that are identified in the report? and And the answer there is no as well. right right Oh my gosh. so So yeah. So I came up with this with this kind of categorization of SIF precursors. And i' and you know we can we can spend three hours talking about this. but you So basically it boiled down to kind of three different main categories. um And that was... um Kind of the things what what you might call the things that were happening on the ground at the time of the incident like the pre the pre incident conditions, you know ah Was it? um
00:55:24
Speaker
And you I even called it, hang on a second, I'm trying to, um I've got my report open here and I'm just looking at the words. So I've got like, you know, the type of operation going on. Was it maintenance, normal operations, construction, or emergency response actions? And even within the definitions of maintenance and normal operations, what is maintenance? that's right And what is normal operations? Because that's right people assume that normal operations is production, yep and maintenance is fixing things. right well But what if you're a maintenance worker and your everyday task is to fix things? That's your normal operations. right So we have to look at it to the individual task and not just the overall operation of the organization. And ah like one ah a lot of the cases I looked at somehow, and I didn't pre-select anything by industry, i just it was a random generation,
00:56:21
Speaker
ah like working on vehicles, working on trucks, working on equipment, like, you know, maybe you're an automotive shop. Well, that's not maintenance work. That is ah normal operations, because your normal operations is to do that to do that work, right? The next thing was just the definitions of routine versus non-routine work. And again, we sort of, we group that, I think, the general view is to group it by the operation of the organization, but it really goes down to the individual performing the task. Because again, I use the maintenance example. If I'm an electrician, my routine work may be non-routine to the organization, you know, pulling pumps, pulling motor control centers, you know, rewiring things, fixing things that are broken. That's my routine work.
00:57:13
Speaker
not the other way around. And so but so this idea that non-routine work ah lends itself more readily to SIF precursors according to my data is not true. here The the ah prevailing operation was routine work when it was routine to the worker, right? Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. And so then the other things were like worker experience and in the data set that I ended up with actually experienced workers had higher frequency of fatal events than inexperienced workers. That's interesting.
00:57:49
Speaker
That's, you know, i've I've mentioned before and on this podcast that I was an investigator for OSHA for just about 12 years. And, and so my anecdotal without doing a study, and I think back to all the fatalities and serious injuries I investigated, it was almost always people who are older workers, especially, especially it was experienced workers and nearly all toward the end of their career. Hmm. I didn't, I didn't factor in like just, I kind of grouped them by, you know, were they considered like a journeyman or were they considered someone who was experienced or was it somebody new? Right. You know, yeah and that's all again. It was very, one of the things that when you do content analysis is you have to be careful not to let your own biases influence the data. Yeah.
00:58:37
Speaker
And as an experienced safety professional and an experienced accident investigator, it was very difficult for me when reading these reports not to say, oh, well, they they got the wrong cause here. why i have to I had to categorize the cause that was listed. right yeah um and so But in my data, I found that doing normal operations doing routine tasks by experienced workers had much higher rates of significant incident fatalities than than the other. right um And then we got into things like what I called the triggers. The triggers of s SIF were a safety procedure breakdown, abnormal conditions, unexpected changes in the work,
00:59:23
Speaker
having the worker in the line of fire of some kind of trajectory of moving objects, process instability, equipment failure, design or installation failure, and then safety control failure. Now, this one category, which I called the initiator or the trigger, is what most people think of when they think of SIF precursor. ah So that wasn't a whole lot new, but the problem is these things have not been, had not, up until last year, not been defined. So I went through and tried to define them. And no surprises, the most frequent thing was safety procedure breakdown, followed by line of fire incidents.
01:00:02
Speaker
And so because of that, I'm actually, my i'm just I'm doing a research grant right now to study this line of fire ah event, and we can talk more about that as we get to what's the what next section. but um But then the other thing was management system failures, ah safety management system failures, and then overall management failures, like culture failures. Those are typically not viewed as SIF precursors, but according to my research, they are. So Leslie, you're your research is so fascinating and so many things that can be learned from it. How can or will the wider yeah EHS profession be able to use your findings?
01:00:47
Speaker
Um, well, uh, you know, when you write a dissertation, it goes into, you know, the great dissertation database in the sky. It is available for people to read. Um, and actually someone did read it and posted on LinkedIn, uh, not too long ago, which terrified me. You know, um but generally the people that he he did a pretty good analysis of it. And then the people that responded to it were all generally positive. So that was a big few moment, but I am working on. I probably need to split it into three different publications.
01:01:23
Speaker
because, you know, it's a dissertation. It's very long. Just talking about kind of the the s SIF precursor topics and then just the where do we go from here kind of stuff. I think one of the biggest findings of the whole thing was that the things that people identify in incident investigations don't always translate into the right corrective actions. yeah And that corrective actions, there there tends to be a default between new procedures and new training. and here um I can't tell you the number of cases where you know that this this accident happened and there's no mention of a procedure that either was bad or wasn't followed or didn't exist. um And then in the corrective action, they say write a new procedure.
01:02:10
Speaker
yeah or train employees. or you know And meanwhile, there was a procedure, and they did follow it, and the people were trained. um and And so that is something I think there needs to be a heavy emphasis placed on doing better investigations. I think we all you know it's one of those basic safety functions that any state professional does But a lot of people do them that haven't been trained, that don't have an understanding of root cause analysis, that don't have an understanding of even you know this sort of thing. It's just kind of a paperwork exercise. I think as is as a profession, I think we need to revisit that.
01:02:52
Speaker
and get back to it, and then also communicating those findings. The other big finding was in almost 90% of the cases I reviewed, there was no effort made at any kind of pre-task hazard ID or risk assessment before the task. ah took place, which then, you know, resulted in a person losing their life. That's right. So gosh I'm also working on a follow-up research. I got a grant from MMEC insurance company to do follow-up on this line of fire. And so I have a colleague of mine, a professor here, and she's doing a lot of work with virtual reality.
01:03:29
Speaker
And so we we have a virtual reality studio just across the hall, and we're going to create some virtual reality scenarios based on some of these reports from my my original study. And then we're going to do some some research on how, you know, putting put in ah in a virtual reality environment How do people respond to these hazard events, SIF events? So we got a grant to do that. So we're going to be doing that probably this next year. yeah What a time to be a student at OSU to be able to learn from these things that you've that you've done in your dissertation. are you Are you speaking about some of this research at ASSP when you go to the conference?
01:04:11
Speaker
Actually, I'm not um I so I did speak about it a couple of years ago when I was still kind of in the proposal phase ah But I applied to speak this year, but I was not selected for that topic I was selected for I do I kind of have a side gig um on nonverbal communication and how how we can use the psychology of nonverbal communication and to be better safety professionals. And so that's, I submitted two topics this year, and and that's the topic that got selected. So my, I'm going to be talking about basically my title is everybody, what everybody says about safety, emphasis on the body. um so It's kind of, it's kind of a backward, my last industry job before I came to OSU full time, I worked at a
01:04:58
Speaker
electric utility company and, you know, just life-changing events, life-changing moments. I really kind of got into this idea of learning about, um you know, 60 to 90% of our communication is through our nonverbal actions. And I sort of just got interested in that. I started studying and I actually became a certified body language trainer and consultant through an organization. at the time they were out of Portland, but now they're in Austin. It's called the science of people. And so I do, I have some training, little extra training sessions that I can do with different groups on, you know, how to yeah especially for someone possibly who doesn't come across human human interface very easily, like for introverts or, you know, people with neurodivergent issues. How can you learn how to, you know,
01:05:54
Speaker
connect with people when it doesn't come naturally to you. And there are ways to do it. but so This is a whole nother podcast. Yeah, it really is. Actually, yes, I would love to do it if you would love to. Oh, I would. I would. Fabulous. Yeah. So I've spoken a few conferences about it. And that's what I got selected for for ASSP this year. OK. Well, I hope we're not speaking at the same time so that I can come and listen to you. Oh, yeah, same. palet Well, yeah, Leslie, um before we leave today, is there anything you'd like to leave the podcast audience with?
01:06:34
Speaker
um Well, you know, we we we said we were going to talk about OSU and I think we kind of went down a rabbit hole there, but I just wanted to let everybody know that, you know, our program, we've just launched our online program where you can earn a bachelor's in fire protection safety engineering technology in a, I'm going to call it 98% online format. You still have to take chemistry and physics in person, but you have to, you can take that at your local college. um And so for those people who are out there looking for, you know, an online program, because I know sometimes people like to debate what's better online or in person.
01:07:16
Speaker
And I will say in person's always better. But but sometimes in person's not possible. here ah Like, for example, when I was working on my PhD, there's no way I could have uprooted my life and moved to Lubbock, Texas to complete a PhD. yeah and so When your choice is nothing or online, then you want online and you want quality online. And so I think we are working, we're we're doing that. We're providing the same quality of education that you get in person here at OSU in an online format. And we're doing a lot with virtual reality labs.
01:07:52
Speaker
And so I would just want to let people know, hey, here's ah here's a possibility for you. And if you want more information, you can find us on our website or reach out to me and we'd be glad to talk to you about it. Well, and we can put a link in the show notes as well. Thank you. We appreciate that. You're welcome. Oh my gosh, Leslie, thank you so much for your generous time today and for all the contributions that you've made to our profession. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for having me on. This was fun. I really enjoyed it. And I look forward to seeing you guys in person and at the conference. Same, same. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May your employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well being, which is at the core of our practice.
01:08:44
Speaker
If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player that you'd like. Or if you prefer, read the transcript and listen at hsi dot.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review it on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Leslie and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, an OSU grad and our podcast producer. Until next time, thanks for listening.