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The "Pro-Democracy" Israeli Protests with Ameer Makhoul
52 Plays1 year ago
Ameer Makhoul joins host Yara Hawari to discuss the ongoing Israeli protests against Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition government. Makhoul provides a sobering analysis of the so-called pro-democracy protests in the context of the Israeli regime’s settler-colonial and apartheid rule over millions of Palestinians.
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Transcript
Israeli Identity and State Policies
00:00:00
Speaker
For the Israelis, they are coming to keep the state as it is, because it's a Jewish state, a Zionist state, not to allow the new elites to change it. They are very militarized administration. The military voice, the security voice is very high. They are totally Israeli. They have very strong Israeli identity, which is very deep Zionist identity.
Protests Against Judicial Reforms
00:00:29
Speaker
From Ashabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network, I am Yara Hawari, and this is Rethinking Palestine.
00:00:40
Speaker
Since the beginning of 2023, Israelis have been hitting the streets in the hundreds of thousands to protest Netanyahu's government plans for judicial reform. The plans are seen by many Israelis as an attempt by the Prime Minister, who's being prosecuted on corruption charges, to rein in the judiciary and give the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, the power to override Supreme Court decisions.
00:01:04
Speaker
The demonstrations have been dubbed the pro-democracy protest by much of the Western media because protesters claim to be standing up in defense of Israel's democracy.
00:01:15
Speaker
This narrative completely ignores the fact that the Israeli regime rules over millions of Palestinians who have no say whatsoever in who governs them, and that democracy in a settler-colonial apartheid context can be nothing more than a facade.
Political Influence Over Judiciary
00:01:29
Speaker
Joining us to discuss this in this episode is Emile Makhul, former director of the Haifa-based Itezha, the union of Arab community-based associations.
00:01:39
Speaker
political commentator and member of the Shabakkah. Thank you for joining us. So Amir, can you tell me a bit more about these proposed judicial reforms and why so many Israelis are unhappy with them?
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, on its face, on the surface, it sounds like changes in the judicial aspects in terms of who ruled the government or the Supreme Court. And if the government is accountable to the Supreme Court, does Agnesis is accountable to the Supreme Court. This is one of the main aspects. And the other one is to change and to politicize
00:02:18
Speaker
the judge appointment committee which is to make it more political and to give more power to the political parties but to the coalition and this power to the supreme judge but i think there is a different agenda behind that because it's not the goal by itself it's to change the platform
00:02:40
Speaker
The Israeli platform knows that to make another political enterprises which are on the mind of Netanyahu, on the mind of the right wing.
Deep Political Crisis and Elite Struggles
00:02:50
Speaker
and on the right on the Zionist religious parties, which are not so busy with the judicial aspects of Israel. They are very busy in different matters of what to do with the Palestinians in whole Palestine, where there is no green line in their eyes, but there is one line that is one state, the land of Israel, until for a definition. So I think it's a real discussion or debate in Israeli political sphere,
00:03:20
Speaker
It looks like the whole Israeli system is in crisis that began with the crisis of who will lead the government, which of the government, but now it's more crisis of about the definition of Israel by its own self without the Palestinian issue. But it's also the
00:03:40
Speaker
or the fight between two elites who were grown after the war of 1967 and the elites who established the state in 1948 with the NACWA. So they are very different elites in fact.
00:03:56
Speaker
It became like a big crisis of Israel.
Diverse Groups in Protests
00:04:00
Speaker
I think it has begun not because of the judicial system, it began because of the difficulty of the state to rule itself and to keep silent the whole privileges and internal fights of identity, of the elites, of power who will control Israel, who will control the army,
00:04:26
Speaker
everything became like pushed there and became part of this crisis which have no exit, no relief that could be seen in the near future at least it looks like
00:04:38
Speaker
going to be a long-term crisis and internal Israeli confrontation between powers, not only political parties, it's more like who will lead this state. So Israelis became weaker strategically, but it's more tough internally. Maybe it will be different after the coming months or years, but things are not going to be as they used to be until November 1922.
00:05:07
Speaker
So this is obviously a tension that has been rising for a long time between different political actors and different political ideologies within Israel. And it seems like the judicial reforms were really just sort of the catalyst for these protests. But I wanted to ask who specifically is attending these protests? What kind of Israelis are we seeing on the streets?
00:05:35
Speaker
In fact, formally, there are over 100 groups who are taking part in the protest movement. It's not the one group, and it's not only the political opposition. It's much more wider. It's like a mixture of political parties, of political powers, of economical powers, of the high-tech industrial security system, of Shabak, of Mossad, of the army, and the police, which are all involved in such a tension.
Motivations Behind Protests
00:06:04
Speaker
And also, we can see that there are civil sector organizations. The civil sector organization, we can see that it's a very wider politically, like in one side, there is the main race, or as the Communist Party. And in the other side, there is you are from the center's background. You used to be a minister in the last government, in the previous government. So it's very wide, and there are the good supporters also.
00:06:34
Speaker
In fact, it's very wide participation. The masses are from all the political approaches and also there are powers that are feeding such a movement to be sustained. We talk internally the high tech industry, for example, which they feel that they are very
00:06:52
Speaker
threatened by the judicial changes, and some kind of consensus between the former head of staff and the chiefs of the Simnozad Chapak, which are part of the movement.
00:07:07
Speaker
mostly are many soldiers in Brazil. In general, it's mostly Ashkenaz more than we can see that there's a lack of Oriental Jews or Moroccan or Jews from Arab countries, but it's a very strong movement. It's difficult to put a leader. Lapid is not the leader of that at all, and maybe Gantz is
00:07:29
Speaker
became more empowered because of his army and military background. But these groups represent wider and scope of political approaches. So we can find the left wing in one side and the other wings.
00:07:44
Speaker
but we can say only one flag which is the flag of Israel which be reclaimed by the not by the also like the groups but the first time it had been reclaimed by the liberal communist groups as the reflect sometimes we can find we see enough televinities is opposing the government on their position but he is not opposing them in the other side of the activity so i think it's it's very
00:08:13
Speaker
strong movement, of course, Palestinians are not there. And the anti-Zionist group or anti-occupation, they are also there, but they are by themselves as they try to have entity of a group that is called against occupation. It's exist, but it's not the masses. In fact, the masses are the Zionist, central, liberal, Israeli groups.
00:08:39
Speaker
So we can't quite call these protests grassroots because we're seeing these big political institutional figures like Gantz, like Lapid, like even Zippy Livni, the tech industries, army reservists, all of these
00:08:56
Speaker
groups and actors are taking part. And am I right in thinking that these groups and actors are also funding these protests? So this is coming from the heart of Israel's political institution.
00:09:11
Speaker
Look, it's very difficult in general to define what is in the civil society of grassroots organizations. It's not so easy because it's very politicized in general. So many groups and powers are taking part in that. It's not internalized in this regard. But I can say there are some grassroots organizations.
00:09:33
Speaker
But they are not the voice of the protest. It's not like people who are opposing the state, who are to protest against the state. There are people who are coming to the states in order to protect the state, which is different from the definition of grassroots in general, because grassroots is to escape the scope of activity of the civil society or the society itself, not to improve the state itself. So it's different definitions here. But I think there are
00:10:01
Speaker
semi-groups in any case which are part of that. If I take the supporters of NERES there are many grassroots organizations or with NERES political agenda and they are behaving as grassroots or sub-site organizations. But it's motivated by powers, not by spontaneous demonstrations. Nothing is spontaneous here. It's very politicized. It's very strong in one side and it's massive, but it's not grassroots.
00:10:32
Speaker
And this is a very important point that you mentioned that these protests are about protecting the state of Israel and about saving the state of Israel as a Zionist state.
Protests vs. Revolutionary Movements
00:10:43
Speaker
And this sort of leads me on to my next question. Some commentators have compared these protests to the Arab Spring and have even gone so far as to use the word intifada, the Palestinian word for uprising.
00:10:58
Speaker
Aside from noting that this is an incredibly offensive comparison, how would you explain that these protests are far, so far removed from the revolutionary moments we witnessed in the Arab world over a decade ago and from the Palestinian Intifadas? It's totally not Intifada. Intifada is a movement to immerse people who, it's part of national liberation movement, it's part of people voice and act,
00:11:27
Speaker
in order to be liberated from occupation. Totally, not the same. It couldn't be the same. In fact, it's insulting in some way to have the Palestinians to call that intifada. And it's very different from the Arab brain, because in the Arab countries, people moved in order to change their regimes, in order to change their states, the ruling state, in order to fight the so-called deep state.
00:11:55
Speaker
which control their life, their everything, their rights, their freedoms, their future. For the Israelis, they are coming exactly to do the opposite, to keep the state as it is, because it's Jewish state, it's their state, and not to allow the new elites to change it, even if it looks like similar on its face, but it's not similar in the essence of that. It's totally different. In the other aspect of the Israeli demonstrations,
00:12:25
Speaker
They are very militarized demonstration, the military voice, the security voice is very high.
00:12:33
Speaker
People are saying that we are going to the army, we are protecting the Israelis, we are protecting all citizens. So we don't agree that we will be led by ministers who are not serving in the army, like being real and smart, which they are totally Israeli. They have very strong Israeli identity, which is very deep Zionist identity that we have to protect our state.
00:13:00
Speaker
to defend it in order to be able to overcome over enemies. This is the language and the debate. Nobody is speaking about occupation. Nobody is speaking about to change the regime. Nobody is speaking about to make it state of all citizens, not only for Jews. This, the opposition of the Netanyahu are in line with Netanyahu in supporting the Jewish state. All of them supported during
00:13:29
Speaker
the law of confiscate or to the citizenship of Palestinians. So it's nothing matter that anybody wants to change the nature of the state. They want to keep the nature of the state. So this is the real agenda of the opposition, the real agenda of the coalition
00:13:49
Speaker
is also different.
Focus on Jewish State Identity
00:13:50
Speaker
It's not, nobody is missing with the, in fact, with the Jitikal. In fact, the real agenda is more important than the agenda that we can see from the media. The real agenda of Smotrich is annexation of the West Bank, is to legalize the sports of settlements and to legalize the terrorist groups in the West Bank.
00:14:14
Speaker
The other side of the agenda is what Benekwil is looking for. He is looking for ethnic means inside the Green Line. And both, they are working in very complementary levels. I think it's much more dangerous, in fact, because it's thinking strategically.
00:14:34
Speaker
the only ministers who are dealing with the Palestinian courts today, and they are very dangerous about the Palestinian courts. So the agenda for Netanyahu is to feel free and not to go to prison. So it's not agenda of even statehood agenda.
00:14:50
Speaker
very sectoral agenda of each part of the coalition. During decades, the army of Israel was used to be the major structure, not only for war and defense and the language and occupation, etc.
00:15:08
Speaker
it was a social or socialization system of the Israelis and recreation of the Israelis as they are today. But now it looks that it will never be like how it was till three months ago. I think it will be more like private arms and it looks like more professional
00:15:30
Speaker
less massive and less popular. So this aspect will lead the ideas of fascism and will make also the Israeli tensions, internal tensions, to be internal fights. No system could moderate such tension in the future. If you're enjoying this podcast, please visit our website al-shabaka.org where you will find more Palestinian policy analysis and where you can join our mailing list and donate to support our work.
00:16:02
Speaker
I mean, there's been a lot of Israeli commentary about the fact that Palestinian citizens of Israel are not attending these protests. Now, we sort of might take that for granted, but what is your analysis on why that is the case? I think it's not a political laziness from the Palestinians and the citizens of Israel. It's political statement.
00:16:25
Speaker
The Palestinians in Israel are excluded by both powers, by the coalition and by the opposition. The peace didn't want the Palestinians to be in his struggle, what he called war, in his political battle. And the same with the gangs and the same with the religious parties. They don't want to be partners of the Arabs from both essential point of view.
00:16:49
Speaker
And also from a tactical point of view, that they don't want to give Netanyahu the accusation to attack them, that there are prints of the Arabs, which is a very bad way of doing this. But Palestinians in Israel, they don't feel that they are part of such a struggle. Because for seven decades, we speak about the Supreme Court, but it's not the Supreme Court for justice.
Palestinian Exclusion from Protests
00:17:14
Speaker
for Palestinians. It's unjust, in fact, and not only for Palestinians who partake, but for all Palestinians together. People don't feel that they have to protect the Supreme Court or the deep state, the deep state for Palestinians, citizens or Nazis, from desert. Its occupation is the state of racism, it's the state of systematic racism, it's the state of the law of the Jewish state and national state, the laws of immigration and the laws of citizenship,
00:17:42
Speaker
Some voices are like we have to distinguish between worse and much more worse, but it doesn't make any sense for the people until now. The masses are not going to participate as a political statement. For Palestinians, it's also important to see that the Supreme Court
00:18:05
Speaker
is not the sample or the icon of justice. People arguing to the Supreme Court, they have petitions to the Supreme Court, not to see.
00:18:15
Speaker
The justice, it's much more to empower themselves. This is what Aliyyah is doing. This is what the legal organization are doing. And even if you listen to what the judge Barak debated, that the Supreme Court protected Israel like an army. So we are not in the same place, in fact. We are protecting their system and their mechanisms of ruling. But we are victims of these systems.
00:18:45
Speaker
that there is a debate between the Palestinians if we have to demonstrate within our towns and villages. It doesn't make any sense for this. We couldn't influence it. With the current platform, we can influence it.
00:19:01
Speaker
Not in terms of the resolutions, but we can empower ourselves. I think the rights, the better narrative, has made us like feeling much empowered for it. But not alone, it's with demonstrations, with the popular activity, with the public sphere activity, et cetera. But it's not by itself. The Palestinian-Arabic numbers with the Arab parties, they have this influential, but bold, in the clear sense.
00:19:28
Speaker
So people think that they don't want to see this government to continue because they can see it's very risky government for us and very risky for Palestinians in general, for us as a people. But we shouldn't be part of the Israeli protest. We are excluded from the Israeli political sphere. And there is consensus, Zionist consensus, which is supporting that.
00:19:56
Speaker
of Lapid, of Gantz, of Netanyahu, and it's quite a strong position. I think our agenda should be how we can protect ourselves these days and how we can
00:20:11
Speaker
is to prevent real attacks against our basic rights, like there is an attempt now and a political enterprise to call the high follow-up committee as illegal, to consider it as illegal, and to prevent political parties from running to darkness in the future, or the issue of citizenship, which became not for granted for Palestinians inside Israel.
00:20:36
Speaker
So this could be a real agenda. So we have to work much more as Palestinians inside Israel. We have to be in very well coordinated with all Palestinians, especially in the West Bank and Jerusalem.
00:20:51
Speaker
and also to think how we can protect ourselves from policies of ethnic cleansing like a knock-up, like in the coastal cities which are under community address. The plans are very clear how to use this so-called the National Guard which is malicious
00:21:13
Speaker
We established a de facto in the cities of the Bay of Saba, of the Batyam near the Yapa, close the Yapa, and in order to oppress the Palestinian citizens. And they are armed and semi-formal, and they are active now. Our agenda is to protect ourselves and not to protect the state, which doesn't protect us at all.
00:21:39
Speaker
The state doesn't take any responsibility to the Palestinians in terms of security, of feeling secure, of feeling protected, etc. And the plans of the state, if I take after May 2021, the state decided to establish the National Guard. They decided to use the army within the Palestinian cities and towns inside Israel. And also,
00:22:09
Speaker
to give free hands for the so-called system of organized crime to distract the Palestinian society from within. So we have now, till now, in this year, 45 Palestinian citizens of Israel have been killed by the Palestinian mafia, which is death by the Shabak and by the state itself. It has a functional aspect to implement policies.
00:22:38
Speaker
and to weakening the Palestinians internally. And the Palestinians in Israel today are the most until now organized, maybe a group within the Palestinian people. To weakening them is not a goal to weakening this group. It's a goal to weakening the whole Palestinian people.
00:22:56
Speaker
Because we are taking part to protect Al-Aqsa, to protect Jerusalem, to protest against the war and the occupation in Gaza and West Bank, and to protect Palestinian political prisoners. So these aspects are going to be targeted by these policies of the government.
00:23:18
Speaker
Amir, you've made many important points, including that the Israeli Supreme Court has been a key mechanism in oppressing Palestinians across the so-called Green Line and in defending Zionism.
Concerns Over National Guard
00:23:31
Speaker
So it's understandable that Palestinian citizens of Israel are not joining in in these protests. Now, you also mentioned Ben-Gvir's National Guard.
00:23:41
Speaker
And just for a bit of context for the audience, Netanyahu made a concession to delay the judicial reforms, which were seen as a win for many of the protesters. But as part of that concession, he promised Itamar Ben Gavir, an extremist member of the coalition, a minister for national security, a new national guard, which will reportedly be focused solely on policing in oppressing areas.
00:24:07
Speaker
in which Palestinian citizens of Israel live, like Lid, Ramleh, and the Naka. Many are calling this Ben Gevir's private militia. Can you tell us a bit more about this? It's also important to see why Netanyahu did that, because this is the real agenda of Ben Gevir. Ben Gevir is not busy with the judicial system at all. He's not busy with the public opinion.
00:24:33
Speaker
of the international community. They came to the government from the last elections under the slogan
00:24:43
Speaker
who are the owners of this home on then. In fact, Netanyahu decided to give him this present in order to keep the coalition. So he got this demand. It's important to see that the National Guard have been decided by the Israeli formal government of Bennett and Lappid. It's not Netanyahu's decision. And this was as outcome of the 2021
00:25:11
Speaker
the applies of the Palestinian community inside Israel, which was at the same time with the Sheikh Jarrah, with the Gaza, and with the whole Palestine. There's really evaluations, especially of the army and the Shabbat, that they have to empower the policing system inside Israel and to empower it in order to deal with the Palestinian citizens of Israel.
00:25:40
Speaker
with the whole of the synchus.
00:25:42
Speaker
And the idea was that this guard would be part of the system, of the security system, of the police, Israeli police system, and the border's guard, which is called Inchmar Gud, the Ha'arz al-Hudud, which is similar in between police and the army. This system is working in the West Bank, the same work inside the Green Line. So the idea was to empower the so-called control system,
00:26:12
Speaker
to empower the operation system and to prevent any possibility that the Palestinian system could make a new front, an internal front. It was like the first time that it had been announced that the military was used to evaluate the events and how to consider the Palestinians as a new front. What Netanyahu did is
00:26:42
Speaker
that he promised and took a decision after that in the government that this national gap would be accountable to the minister himself, not to the police system. And this is the first time in Israel that the security power would be under the direct control and orders of the minister. So it's clear that the statement behind that is that we will consider Palestinians as enemy, Palestinian citizens.
00:27:12
Speaker
And this came like that we are under real risk, because although the police system is very tough with the Palestinians, it's very violent, not like with the Jewish community, like what's happened with the protesters. But the National Guard will be much more tough. It is huge power that think we could use whenever we want, wherever he wants.
00:27:38
Speaker
This is to keep Palestinians under state-privileged mechanism. Right now, there is a big opposition of the policy system, of the Shabak, of the idea of the Israeli army against the mechanism, not because of the need to protect Palestinians, but because it will make the world much more complicated, their world. And there will be duplication of the world.
00:28:07
Speaker
and application of systems and different orders to different groups. So this is why they oppose against to keep the state system and not to protect the victims of such a system. So this guard is supposed to be established with the 2000 troops and in the future it will be expand until 10,000. I think if it will be established, I mean,
00:28:33
Speaker
massacre which will be happened to Palestinians and could be happened every day. It's under the responsibility of the state. It's not being weird policy. It's state policy. Amira, I want to ask you finally, what do you see happening in the near future with these protests?
Sustained Israeli Crisis
00:28:49
Speaker
In fact, it was a very big surprise that this protest has been sustained and has long-term protests.
00:28:59
Speaker
It doesn't look like it's going to be silent in the near future, and it doesn't look like there will be compromise between the parties. And this looks that Israel is in a very deep crisis. It could be.
00:29:15
Speaker
that these crises will lead to elections and they will stop, I think. And within their own polls, it looks like the Anatania will lose the new elections, the same with the same religious groups.
00:29:31
Speaker
But Palestinians, as with Arabs in general, shouldn't wait for the Israeli relief that there will be a good opportunity. Palestinians should rely on themselves and on themselves in order to be liberated from occupation, not from the Israeli internal change.
00:29:51
Speaker
There is no Israeli international change that could lead for justice for Palestinians. No, no, no, no. Even there is a group of anti-increpation within this about 100 groups. And they have some thousands of supporters. And they are courageous, in fact. But they are not the high voice or the higher voice at all of the demonstrations. The demonstrations are the Israeli mainstream.
00:30:20
Speaker
which is not busy with the Palestinian cause, what could be not outcome of the protest, but outcome of the Israeli crisis, that the Israelis would see that their power and occupation and even to have been experienced much as the government would never
00:30:43
Speaker
keep them protected. With novel keep, the possibility of avoiding the Palestinian or bypassed Palestinian problem is possible. Israel tried to make everything to bypass the Palestinian cause, but the Palestinian cause everyday is not exist, in fact, in the Israeli sphere. And it's more on the agenda of the Israelis. Maybe it's contradictions that the Zionist
00:31:13
Speaker
religious groups, both of them, they put the Palestinian problem on the agenda again, while the other government of Lapid and Bennett in the last years, they tried to sign any voice that speak about the Palestinian problem. So the Palestinian could
00:31:32
Speaker
not expect or to wait what the Israelis will do and then what we can benefit from. We have to change that maybe the balance of power is for the Israelis, but we have very strong points that we have to check and we can influence, not by participating in the demonstrations, but by supporting our regional agenda. Amir, I think we'll end it on that note. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine. Thank you so much.
Ashabaka and New Policy Paradigms
00:32:04
Speaker
Rethinking Palestine is brought to you by Ashabaka, the Palestinian policy network. Ashabaka is the only global independent Palestinian think tank whose mission is to produce critical policy analysis and collectively imagine a new policymaking paradigm for Palestine and Palestinians worldwide. For more information or to donate to support our work, visit al-ashabaka.org. And importantly, don't forget to subscribe to Rethinking Palestine, wherever you listen to podcasts.