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AGI Games!
122 Plays1 month ago
Ben and Jess talk about Sierra On-Line's old games made in the AGI engine! Kings Quests 1-4, Police Quest 1, Space Quests 1-2, and more!
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
Watch us on Twitch!
Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
Give us a review, they help people find this show! Unless you hated it, in which case, I recommend a little podcast called "This American Life"
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Adventure Game Podcast Setup
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Quest Quest. A or the adventure game podcast. I don't remember how I introduced the the name of the show last time. The adventure game podcast sounds kind of presumptuous knowing that there are other adventure game podcasts, but ah for now.
World Trip Plans and Job Quitting
00:00:50
Speaker
Yeah, for now.
00:00:54
Speaker
it's ready it's ready that's right yeah Yeah, I get it bludgeon you with an mp3 file
00:01:06
Speaker
It's actually the only adventure game podcast by the time this airs. That's that's a good point. We are recording these well in advance and we've ah hired ah several unscrupulous men. That's right. It's currently February 2020 and I think this is going to be a great year looking forward. I mean, I don't see what could go wrong.
00:01:26
Speaker
Yeah, I have, uh, I have these, uh, tickets for a world. it's So I have recently read around the world in 80 days and I have been saving, scrimping and saving non-refundable money for, uh, like by steamboat, by, uh, dirigible by, uh, truck, by train, uh, a wild adventure ah across this great earth, nothing. and And, and it's going to start, I'm going to say about March 15th. And it's going to go until about the end of the year. It's going to be a wild, incredible trip. And I mean, you quit your job for this. I did quit my job and I want to make it clear that my job is very comfy. It's work from home. I stay here. I also have in my home a ton of like dry goods and rice and stuff. None of that is is coming with me on my trip. And I also have several masks and also tinctures and ointments.
Host Introductions and Podcast Banter
00:02:22
Speaker
um
00:02:25
Speaker
Anyway, <unk>quet the game po yeah celebrating 2020. My name is Ben and I am joined by my co-host. It's me Jess. We got it. we got got yeah Last time we blew that last. We rehearsed this for an hour before I had them. Hello, Mr. Simpson.
00:02:52
Speaker
what but i yeah I'm your foot. Oh, it's Mr. Johnson. i up My own reference. Oh man. But everyone got it. Everyone at home. Everyone got it. yeah And we can fix that in post.
00:03:10
Speaker
So how are you doing Ben? I'm hi good. i i am I am full of ah energy tonight. I just took a bunch of days off. And so today it's ah was my day back at work. So of course I, you know, I came right in right full of revved up and full of ideas. i thiss and we Oh my god, enormous amounts of piss, enormous amounts of ah vinegar, ah and a ah distressing amount of ah baking soda. I was exploding everywhere. How are you doing today, Jess?
00:03:52
Speaker
I'm pretty good. I am. I also went back to work today. And, you know, I like not being at work better. I'm just good that's my hot take. If I had to choose, I'd just not be at work.
Episode Theme: Sierra Online Systems and AGI Games
00:04:04
Speaker
Now, now this is ah going to be reviewed by everyone that you work with. and So we'll we'll edit all of that out and and add it with a perfect AI symbol acronym that loves to work. and No one Uh, uh, we'll be full weight. Everyone will be fooled by that. You're not selling me on that. No one will be fooled. It's terrible. I had to tear apart the climate and it won't work. Unlike most AI things. Uh, I, the theme of today's episode and we'll get to this. We have to have a whole lot of business up front.
00:04:43
Speaker
Uh, but the theme of today's episode is we're going to be talking about Sierra online Sierra on hyphen line systems, uh, AGI, uh, games and all of that. But, but you know, this is a podcast. There's an expectation at the start of every podcast that the hosts talk about something completely unrelated.
00:05:07
Speaker
to the topic at hand. So people looking through it in their podcast or they're like, Oh, this seems interesting. And then they're like, Oh, I guess I'll just hang out for a bit. Or, I mean, hit the skip 15, like, I don't know, like many. Just jam that thing. Just ja jam on that button. ah Pull out a jammer and break your phone. Yeah. Wait until, just keep doing it until you hear one of us say King's quest and then stop. Uh, that's how you'll know that we've gotten to the good stuff. But first it's done. No, not yet.
00:05:42
Speaker
Oh, no. and Yeah. Get that out of here. Get that out of here. Get out of here. Yeah. Show notes say remind listeners we're human for at least 10 minutes. So I guess we have to do that first.
Video Game Experiences and Impressions
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I have my finger in an oxometer. My oxygen is 81 and ah ah my pulse is zero. um Oh gosh. Are you sure? Are you sure that's okay?
00:06:06
Speaker
It's, it's fine. It's perfectly fine. Uh, what, uh, uh, what have you been playing lately? Yes. what haard gas what Thank you. First of all, thank you because I was going to say something after the show, but it's weird that you never call me by my title. rico I don't think I've ever seriously called you doctor. I've only ever said it to make fun of.
00:06:36
Speaker
I don't think anyone's ever looked at me and seriously believed I was a doctor of anything, so I get it. but yeah why i why Why didn't you try that thing? Speaking about 2020, why didn't you do that thing where you became like Dr. Morissette on Twitter and just confuse everybody? Everybody like looks to you for guidance because everyone's very anxious. And and you're like, hi, I'm Dr. Morissette. They're like, yes, yes.
00:07:05
Speaker
And I'm like, girl a people, I did that anyway. And I'm like, invest in NFTs. Uh, that's my advice as a, as a medical professional. Uh, no, why have I been playing lately? Ben, you know, this, I was playing the Simpsons game from 2007. Uh, this is, uh, this is the platformer that came out on basically every platform around the same time as summer on every platform. Yeah. That that was my patient when I ran for office.
00:07:35
Speaker
ah Yeah. But yeah, it's the one that came out around the same time as the Simpsons movie and it's bonkers. Like it's it's a game about video games where they make fun of video games by doing all the bad things that video games do also badly pisses me off. Like there was was a trend around that time because I would say like did he ever play like ah no more heroes? Did he ever play any of it? Yes.
00:08:09
Speaker
like And paper the the Paper Mario games did this too, especially Super Paper Mario, like where like they would have jokes ah about like they would have meta jokes about playing a game where it's like, ugh, players hate this. And now we're gonna make you do it! Isn't that funny? And it's like, no!
00:08:32
Speaker
so I hate this for a reason. Don't make me do it. And it's almost worse. It's like all those other games I can imagine. Don't know they're putting me through this, but it's like right now you are admitting that, you know, you've like thrown me into a video game cliche that I would rather not experience. But yeah, I mean,
00:08:51
Speaker
What was one of the, what was one of the stupid cliches? I mean, some of them are just like, Oh, here's a crate in the game. Isn't that hilarious that we have a crate in our game and like comic book guy shows up and he's like, Oh, here's a video game cliche. It's a crate. But then a lot of it is stuff like fiddly platforming puzzles, standing on two buttons at the same time with two different characters to open a door. Those aren't bad, they're just sort of tired. But then a lot of it is just like bad platforming action. Just not, you know, it's an ambitious platforming game without the best platforming mechanics behind it that the whole time is just saying to you, the characters are literally saying stuff, isn't it sucky when games suck?
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah, like it's very, it's like, and it's really funny because there was such a, do you remember the hype cycle leading up to the Simpsons game? Because I remember like, because also like the context.
00:09:56
Speaker
You know, this is 2024. We're all, we all love talking about context this year. Oh, absolutely. Context is King. Yeah. Uh, uh, but, uh, this is the context of this is also that it's, it's coming from that. Like, because what play that was a 360 era game, like that was three 16 week. So it's like the previous generation.
00:10:19
Speaker
It felt like they were starting to finally understand how to make a good Simpsons game. And the way that they they were doing that was by just making ripoffs of other games because they had a Simpsons road rage, which was their, their, their crazy taxi game. And then they had hit and run, which was their GPA game, which everybody loved. And I don't know if you've gone back and played either of them. I don't think either of them are that fun to play now.
00:10:48
Speaker
But ah at the time it was just like, this is better than Bart versus the space, space mutants, which is garbage. People whose voices I recognize are voicing the characters. And as a Simpsons fan, that just makes me happy. It's like, give me some of that Julie Kavanagh right now. yeah put right no no know You want Julie Kavanagh right now. right now yeah mean i If you listened to an episode, 15 years ago, yeah yeah yeah i ah Like, or really any of the cast. It's like Marj is, I feel it's like the most noticeable, but you notice it in all of Harry Shearer's characters too. And so like, and then they're like, ah for this, the sim the Simpsons game, ah they were like, you know, we got all the writers and you know, it's going to be, it's going to be big. And we really, I think it was an EA game.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Oh boy. Does they poke fun at EA? There you go. Oh, I bet. I bet. Um, and, uh, and then like I came out and I remember like all the reviews being like,
00:11:58
Speaker
Oh, oh. I mean, well ah spoiler alert, too. It's the most bonkers thing in the world that SimCity Creator will write in the Simpsons game is one of the main villains. Is it voiced by Will Wright or is it voiced by like Hank Azaria? That's a great question. I mean, the voice doesn't sound great enough to necessarily be like, oh, that's definitely a voice actor.
00:12:26
Speaker
But I don't know that for sure. But yeah, the idea of like, who's the most evil moby person now that you can like cast and in the world of game design to be out to get the Simpsons? And like, Will Wright is such an odd choice to me. Like, who do you put in that slot? Who I guess has to be someone at EA and the only person at EA who's anyone who would anyone to recognize their name, I guess was Will Wright.
00:12:51
Speaker
So, all right, let's see here. area where I'm looking, ah I'm on Moby games right now. He is, he is listed as a special guest star. Oh wow. So he did his voice and in the Simpsons game. Yeah. i Yeah. All right. And so that game came out in 2007. I have to figure this part out, uh, sport and come out for another year because then if it, if it, if sport came out ah before that, you could also, you know, have him be a villain because it's like, I, he made sport a game that sucks. Like, yes take you like where it was it some city jokes or was it the Sims joke? Like what, what where was the Sims? city
00:13:35
Speaker
He literally floats in on one of the Sims, like green diamond things. So he is like riding one of those rather than having it above his head. So he is definitely, and I think he does like the classic, it's like, hi guys, I'm Will Wright, you know, ah creator of SimCity and the Sims. that's ah but You know, that's a really good thing. I remember ah back when I took comedy classes, which is true.
00:14:01
Speaker
Uh, back when I took comedy classes and that's why everybody has to constantly hit pause when they're listening to this or any podcast I've ever been is because they're just too busy laughing to hear all the insightful points we're making. Uh, but back when I was taking those, I remember, uh, like talking about impressions and in a class it's like, all right, we're going to work on impressions. Uh, because, you know, if you have an SNL, uh, audition, you have to have a couple of impressions in your pocket.
00:14:29
Speaker
And, uh, one of the things that I remember, like that the, the person saying was it's like, and don't have your impression be like, have built into it. Uh, a person saying the name yeah of the impression because then it's not a good, and like if now, obviously we'll write, isn't doing an impression. It's just that no one like.
00:14:56
Speaker
you know, no one knows what will write. I mean, maybe some listeners of this podcast would probably be able to that's right pull out of will write but like most people, the people that they hoped would buy the Simpsons game, probably would not be able to to identify either a Simpsons care caricature, or the voice of will write. So but anyway, yeah, that's a terrible, like,
00:15:24
Speaker
You know, uh, yeah, like, uh, imagine, uh, having your essay, like doing the SNL showcase, uh, uh, audition and, and coming in and being like, I'm going to nail it. And, uh, just being like, I'm Donald Trump. Like, you know, um That'll be, Ben, I feel like all of our listeners would be upset if I didn't ask this follow-up question. I don't, I don't remember. Who was in your back pocket? Who who was it? I don't remember. Like that's the worst part is that I like, Oh man. I, I really, I don't have.
00:16:02
Speaker
You know, this might be a thing where it like, we'll be halfway through our discussion of AGI and I'll be like, yeah Bruce box lightener. There you go. I always enjoy your Jimmy Stewart. Like I think that I have a Catherine Hepburn that I'll i'll pull out from time to time. like ah ah they So here's the thing about impressions that they taught us. This is also true of if you're doing ah comedy accents. And let's be clear, and don't do any of the cancelable ones. And when I was taking when i was taking the classes, we didn't have that terminology yet. oh
00:16:39
Speaker
But, uh, uh, no, no way. I mean, we knew not to do offensive things. It was just concept of, of sensitivity. Yeah. It was, uh, yeah, it was 1945. They were, they were actually revving me up for my audition for Jack Benny.
00:16:59
Speaker
But i can that's the problem is is that like ah you know I feel that my my good impressions are all of like you know people that you would see in a ah screwball comedy in the 40s and only I think Bill Hader could get away with that in his
FTL Game Discussion and Rogue-like Appeal
00:17:19
Speaker
audition.
00:17:19
Speaker
ah well ben Let me ask you, what have you been playing? We know what I've been playing. What have you been playing? So I've been playing, um, I got back into, uh, FTL, uh, which is a game that I, what will happen is I'll play it very intensely.
00:17:42
Speaker
Then I'll put it down for like a year or two, and then I'll, I'll pick it back up and I'll play very intensely in the cycle. So they the guy I've been dating recently got into FTL, like he just bought it and he's been playing it very intensely. And so he was like, I saw him playing it on his deck and I was kind of like.
00:18:01
Speaker
Maybe I'll play, you know, again. And so like, have you ever played FTL? I had a cup of coffee with FTL. Like I got a little bit into it and something must have distracted me because that's the kind of game that would scratch all of my addictive yeah and like neurons. yeah Yeah. It seems like, yeah because there's so much and I'll explain just for, if if you haven't played it, FTL is ah like a rogue like type game where ah you have a, like you're controlling a little ship.
00:18:30
Speaker
And i you i it's kind of i mean it's kind of hard to explain. like It's like you you said ah like you control all the little people in your your little spaceship and ah move them around and command them to like fire lasers or turn up the shields or or stuff like that. I think I read an interview with the people that did it once. And they're like, you know ah like we thought about like in Star Trek or something like that.
00:18:59
Speaker
Mm hmm. I'd be wrong. But it's like when somebody says like, Mr. So and so turn up the shields, okay, like all forward lasers or whatever, like, and so you control all the the people in a ship doing that little ship people ah to ah name the Activision game. um And uh you jump from like little tiny little episodic area to the next one and mostly it's you just get into little uh ship battles and it's fun like it just it's just very it intensely i am very uh uh rogue like
00:19:39
Speaker
If I'm not playing like an adventure game or something, or like a strategy game, I generally play a lot of roguelikes because I'm- Oh, wow. Interesting. See, I tend to avoid that genre for the most part. Very instant gratification. Like it's the same thing where it's like ah you'll put something on, like you'll have ah like a TV show on Netflix and a movie and you'll be like, well,
00:20:06
Speaker
You know, that movie is like 90 minutes or two hours. that That seems like a long time. I'll watch a TV show and then you watch like, you know, five or six episodes of a TV show.
00:20:18
Speaker
So you end up watching more than you would have watched with a movie. Uh, uh, like, and that's how I kind of get with rogue, like, so I'll be like, I'll look at, um, like a, like a long RPG, uh, or something like that, like, uh, persona five, which I talked about in the last one, which I've put down because I was just like, I got overwhelmed by, uh, when the world opened up. Uh, uh, uh, and, but then I'll play like a rogue, like for a while. So you, wait you have FTL and a cup of coffee.
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was just like a brief little dalliance with the with FTL. I didn't get didn't get a ton of FTL action in there. What I got, I enjoyed. And I mean, it has that sort of element of virtual dollhouse going on that I kind of dig. you know I like like having little people writing around on my screen and I like just the general sci-fi of it, but it's why I should revisit it. So yeah, I just didn't, uh, I must've been distracted by something because like I said, it feels like something that would have, uh, would have caught more with me. Has great graphics, like a very good graphical style has very good music. It's a very tight design. And then like.
00:21:32
Speaker
You know, six years after they made FTL, they made into the breach, which is also like a very fun and very tight like design, except that's a ah quick little strategy game. Just like this little package game, that game kicks ass anyway.
00:21:47
Speaker
That's what I've been playing. I love you. You got a chance. You got to get back into FTL. Uh, and I will not play the Simpsons game. Uh, no, I think that if I play FTL, you have to play the Simpsons game from start to finish. if If I, you didn't even beat the Simpsons game, did you? Well, you don't know what I do in my free time. Uh, just because of your stream, I guarantee you did not go back to it when you were not. That was a stream only game.
00:22:16
Speaker
You only were playing out for content. I'm actually, my f feel for pleasure I'm playing it right now. I've got my Xbox controller in my hand. I'm doing a different window. ah No, I mean, I will say I deleted the folder. I mean, threw away the desk as soon as that stream was over.
00:22:38
Speaker
No, it's, the I mean, it, it, it does suffer not to get back on the Simpsons, but it suffers from that problem of it does one thing on the first level. And then it's like, yeah, would you like five or six more hours of this one thing? Yeah. The, the Astro chicken, a problem. That's what they call it.
00:22:56
Speaker
It's the Astro Chicken problem, which is, and and this is a great second to, then we'll start talking about actual adventure games. So this is not an AGI game. The Astro Chicken ah problem is, in my opinion, like it, it's it's like Astro Chicken when he, like this mini game that you have to play. ah it it It never really varies up. You just do the same.
00:23:19
Speaker
fucking thing like how many ever however many times you have to play this little arcade game in Space Quest 3 and ah like the only variation is is that the the chicken will sometimes spawn at a slightly different part of the the thing, but it's just so boring to me. I just, you know, yeah. And I don't care about you saying, well, actually it's because the two guys from Andromeda, they work for a bad company and that's why they made a bad game. Oh yeah. Then you're making me play a bad game. This takes us back to the beginning and all tied up end of podcast. Thank you.
00:24:02
Speaker
No, no, we're still here. Now, I think, Ben, you did a great job there of summing up what someone who doesn't understand Astro Chicken would say about it. So I feel like you just don't. if You still appreciate the intricacies of strategy that are at work there. You know, I mean, I get it. Um, I'm just defending this because, uh, uh, you, you, you, you, uh, you know, that your, your space quest people are going to be listening to those podcasts. People, I don't want to ask you from Scott Murphy. Yeah. I don't, I don't want Scott Murphy to send me like and a really angry tweet or something about, yeah. So I'm, I'm all in on Astro chicken.
00:24:38
Speaker
All right.
King's Quest and AGI Games Exploration
00:24:39
Speaker
Anyway, so today we are, we're, we're talking about AGI games. That's a adventure game interpreter. Correct. Good start. Uh, games, uh, that were, uh, made, uh, by, uh, Sierra Sierra online in ah the eighties, uh, first game.
00:24:58
Speaker
was, of course, ah king's quest wine i was ah ah reading the digital and to query in a little bit ah today and his article ah ah on ah King's Quest One. And this is also in, do you ever read Stephen Levy's Hackers? ah yeahzz yeah Yes. Yes, yes.
00:25:22
Speaker
I think did that cover, it like that had early Sierra. Did that cover, uh, King's quest one. It's been a while since I read it too. I think it does. So I, because I were, I think what it was like both in this article I reread today on, uh, uh, digital and antiquarian and hackers, which I read a very long time ago.
00:25:45
Speaker
Like it was, and I even knew this because we had a PC jr. It was made as like a, uh, like a, for the, the PC jr. King's quest one. It really showcase it's graphical. It's, it's sound capabilities. And, uh, in turn, Sierra was able to have IBM underwrite the development of an engine that they would go on to use for a number of other games. So it's win-win watch this.
00:26:13
Speaker
beautiful. It is using the the was like the three voice.
00:26:29
Speaker
Uh, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, like, uh, uh, let me, let me peruse my notes. Do you now you said to me, uh, the, the other day, and I don't know if it was in jazz. Have you ever, have you ever, have you ever used that? Have you ever said that to anyone? Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. I have. Yes. How often, how often have you used that?
00:26:54
Speaker
today. Um, probably six times. that I mean, yeah, people today will ask me to stop. They say, please Jess, don't do that. Um, you know what I say after that, I say, just kidding.
00:27:12
Speaker
um Thank you. Thank you. Audience. Thank you. Um, but, uh, anyway, you said to me, or perhaps you were jesting, uh, you could name all of the Sierra AGI games with, okay. la I've got this there. 14 of them. I know this. You want me to do it? Yeah. car trick Okay. King's quest. One, two, three, four space quest one.
00:27:42
Speaker
Two, uh, quest, leisure suit, Larry gold rush, uh, black cauldron, man, hunter one, man, hunter two, Donald ducks playground and mixed up mother goose. if I'm ever on a job interview and someone asks that they're going to be blown away.
00:28:10
Speaker
Uh, Mr. Oh, I'm sorry. Dr. And it says right here, you can name all the AGI games. Uh, yeah. So it was, uh, it was, it was kind of like the the PC jr. Killer app. Uh, the problem was that no one bought the PC jr.
00:28:28
Speaker
like Now I played all of these. Yeah, I know. You know, I was just a poor kid from the coal fields. Um, and, uh, all I could afford is a Tandy 1000 EX, which is what I played it on. And that's IBM PC junior clone. So I had the three voices. I had the 16 colors. I just, you know, uh, didn't have all that fancy, uh, all that fancy IBM branding.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah, when it it booted, it didn't have that big blue IBM thing and then it display of all the colors. It's really cool. We had bolder dash. Oh, did he have bolder dash? i mean No, we had bolder dash. Oh, it was so cool. Anyway, I i was ah I think but Also, like King's Quest 1 had a little bit of a ah hand. um and And now I'm, i'm um' ah again, pulling, I think, mostly from the digital antiquarian. So don't at me. this is I'm citing my source.
00:29:30
Speaker
i But, uh, but maybe I'm not, uh, maybe this isn't hackers. Um, where, where I just made up was that like IBM wanted it to, to be, uh, like King's quest one to be a little more of the open world kind of concept, uh, than the more kind of linear sense that most of the other AGI games are like, uh, King's quest two is a little more is, it's like kinda open world. And then like.
00:30:03
Speaker
I guess those those Kings quest are all kind of like a little more of a like wander around a big geography a little bit more but I do think they get more streamlined as they go I think as you go yeah like it's a straight through line I mean with the the bridge and the doors you add a certain structure that's much more straightforward for Kings quest to by the time you get to Kings quest three with stuff like escape banana and get on the boat, get to Daventry, all that. And then by four, I feel like the open world stuff has really been rained back in, uh, as you, as you get to that point. So yeah, I do think that it, it stays part of the DNA of the kingsquest King's quest games, but I think it kind of contracts a little bit over time.
00:30:45
Speaker
The like, uh, I, and it's also, it's like King's quest one. So you're like, you have a very clear objective. You have to get these three treasures. That's really, uh, like titular adventure, right? Like that's, that's like, you know, uh, uh, colossal, colossal cave. It's like, you have to get.
00:31:09
Speaker
these treasures and bring them back to the castle. That's essentially it's a very like and like colossal cave. ah Similarly, which ah which I played in VR a lot of fun. um ah ah But ah like, obviously,
00:31:30
Speaker
You know, if you watch in the little colossal cave ah cavern in the remake that they they did, I think you have an interview with Roberto where she talks about how much ah And we're, we're on a first name basis. I want to be, yeah. Dr. Williams. Yeah. Dr. Will honorary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does she have an honorary doctorate? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if I mean, can we, meet somewhere can we bestow one since I, like, I think I can bestow honorary doctorates if I have one, if you have one. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's like, uh, you know, like baptizing someone. If you've been baptized, you know, is that how that works too?
00:32:10
Speaker
Sure.
00:32:15
Speaker
um ah but ah Anyway, yeah like i've as as yeah she said in many interviews that ah i ah like she played colossal king and was like, oh, oh how interesting. like It's like, oh, this is this is fun.
00:32:36
Speaker
So it's not, you know, computers are not just to do whatever they were supposed to do back then. You could also have fun with them. I think you can even really see that influence of Colossal Cave, maybe even more in King's Quest 2, where it adds in all the pieces of jewelry you find ah as you're as you're going through the game that have no bearing on the plush.
00:32:59
Speaker
Hey, you found a Sapphire necklace. You found a Sapphire, you know, tiara and stuff like that. And all it does is just add your point total, which feels almost more like a throwback than Kings quest one, you know, there it's just like literally you're gathering treasures just for the sake of God. And I guess to add to the Royal, you know, treasury of Daventry, I mean, it does, the kingdom does have to run, although it does have a, I guess, chest that makes limitless gold, right?
00:33:25
Speaker
Yeah, I guess Graham just wanted to work if you can get it. ah but the the The funny thing like is like when I think about ah like, you know, thinking about all those games is that this is I mean, first off, as as the boxes said, there are 3D animated adventures. But if it like,
00:33:53
Speaker
When I look at an AGI game, those look a lot more like an adventure game that you would play today, uh, than what came before them. Like it it feels like you're like it, it is a very, uh, like a very close evolution to, to where we ended up.
00:34:18
Speaker
like where where adventure games end up ah even today. ah like And it still has like the the text adventure, like it has the parser. um And ah It has ah like as as we were saying, um it has a ah like the, the earliest games have kind of like any ah
00:34:49
Speaker
an early text adventure ah ah style of ah like ah gameplay. Like you have to find these treasures and bring them back. Not to say that text adventures hadn't even moved past that at that point. Like it's like, you know, info-com games were already doing some very interesting stuff with narrative. Though the time begins, what, KQ1 comes out in 83, 84?
00:35:19
Speaker
And think eighty four yeah. And then like, you know, the most kind of wild, like a mind forever, uh, a mind forever voyaging is 85, which is like, you know, one of the more more kind of.
00:35:37
Speaker
Uh, uh, consciously already. Yes. Uh, info-com games like you have in, so in 84 from info-com, you have hitchhiker's guide, which is, uh, pretty, I mean, you just played that. I did definitely a game start to finish.
00:35:57
Speaker
Uh, but I mean, it's, it's very written and it's not, it's not like a adventure like it is. Right. Yeah. I mean, it has, yeah, it is narrative driven rather than but like solving puzzles driven, which I feel like is the big like switch. It's it's exploration is part of it. Solving puzzles is part of it, but the puzzles serve a bigger narrative.
00:36:19
Speaker
And like, I mean, before that, the year before that in 83, you have a planet fall, which has like a character that you, it has Floyd who you really interact with. So it's not like, you know, like in, in some ways, uh, uh, you could say like King's quest one is, is a little bit conservative. Like in, in its narrative, uh, uh, but like a huge step forward, first off, it uses all 16 colors.
00:36:47
Speaker
All 16 colors of the rainbow. Yeah. the entire Yeah. I mean, it's rainbow today and it was 16. No. and I mean, it you you said earlier, you know, it gets you like so far down the road to sort of what a modern adventure game looks like. I mean, yeah just the idea of being able to move a character around on the screen. And that is how you're interacting with the world now. I mean, I feel like that you know, if King's Quest wasn't the first game to do that, it certainly nailed that down as the primary way in which we tend to interact with adventure game worlds that's stuck around till today. I mean, we have some experiments here and there, you know, a game like Myst, maybe most prominently, that switches to first person view. and And we've seen, of course, visual novels and some other things like that continue to exist. But for the most part,
00:37:37
Speaker
a character in third person that you move around on a screen as you interact with the world is the way adventure games work. And King's quest, ah you know, definitely popularized that and went a long way toward pioneering it. Yeah.
Importance of Text Parsers in Adventure Games
00:37:51
Speaker
And, um, how, how do you feel?
00:37:55
Speaker
about, uh, a text parser in a non text adventure name, because it's like, you'll, you'll read interviews, like, uh, like some of the, the Sierra developers were not happy to lose the person. Like when they moved on to the point and click.
00:38:17
Speaker
games uh you know they were they were like actually like this this route removes it removes the player uh from like a certain direct interactivity how do you personally yes i'm putting it to you right now ah don't don't be afraid don't be afraid to receive a nasty gram oh man no i mean i'll be honest and i bet a part of this is just simply what did you play first when did you first get exposed to this step but for me I love the text parser. Like I, you really do. Yeah, I really do. Like for me, a text parser is my ideal world for an adventure game. Like yeah I eventually grew to appreciate point and clicks. And of course I didn't have a lot of choice ah along the way. But yeah, for me, and if I guess played the legend, uh, games, those were, text yeah those were just great text games with art. They just looked like the worst though. Uh, we kind of say that.
00:39:16
Speaker
I kind of like the weird art in a game. We'll have to come back because I haven't actually played like I haven't played enough album to know really. yeah but Yeah. I love the text parser. Like for me, I feel like that level of interaction. And and and I think part of this again, you know, I played King's quest too. It's my first game when I was not ah nine years old and Part of what impressed me so much about it was how open that world felt. Like I can explore anywhere, I can do anything. And the text parser was such a part of that for me. And it continued to be a part of all these adventure games as I began to discover them. It's just like, I can do literally anything in this game. And even though it's like, well, actually you can't because this parser is crummy and can't understand some pretty basic commands and stuff. But to my imagination, it meant that like, if I can just string together the right two or three words,
00:40:04
Speaker
maybe anything's possible in this game. And I loved that about them. Like I missed that. Yeah. That's, you know, it's, it's funny because, you know, I think it is entry points yeah because it's like,
00:40:16
Speaker
For me, as I've, I believe I've said, like I, I did start with King's quest one on RPC junior, except that I was a toddler. And so I didn't know how to type. I was just like walking King Graham around and killing him. Uh, and, and so when we got, uh,
00:40:40
Speaker
Like I, I remember my sister had a two 86, which she, she brought to college and she got King's quest five for that. Um, and, but then later we got our own, uh, uh, like a four 86, uh, and it had the point and click. Uh, like I was like, Oh, this is great.
00:41:03
Speaker
Uh, because now like, and the thing is, is that even once I was able to start typing and like read and write and all that, like, you know, to like, I, I guess since I didn't come into parsers, uh, uh, like at an age where I could write it. Yeah. Uh, my, I was parseless and, um,
00:41:32
Speaker
I like my main frustration with them was that like, you know, I, I never could write in the way that the game wanted me to write. Like I just always a would always get the, well, I don't understand what you mean by that. I don't understand what you mean by that. I don't understand what you mean by that. And so it's like, it was less.
00:41:56
Speaker
uh the excitement of like this this closer level of interactivity and it was more like just like a god damn it like i don't understand why you want from me you know i don't know what this says about me but i also think as a kid when i was like nine ten years old i didn't know i was allowed to be frustrated at games so i was just like well this is the game you know it's like i know why this exactly I was, I was explaining this to someone who is a little bit younger than me. I was saying to him, I was like, you have to understand that when I was a kid, you had a game and like you had that game, uh, like, and you would just play it hard because every game costs $60 and nineties dollars. and So it's like, you just played the shit out of that game. And it's like, didn't matter if it was arrow, the Acrobat.
00:42:49
Speaker
ah for ah like and that sucked it's just that you bought that game and now you just have to live with that game yeah and you're just going to play it and play and play and play it and ah like you know now Like, you know, there's, uh, like I, you know, I, I purchased, I purchased a game today for like $15 in, uh, and these dollars are worth less than, you know, 90s dollars. Like, you know, like it's not, and also I didn't have to go to the the store. Like it took me two seconds and then it downloaded onto my computer immediately. Like it was just like.
00:43:33
Speaker
whatever, uh, like there was, there was more of a weight to it. And so, uh, I understand, like, yeah, like as a kid, it's, it's, uh, especially then, and I don't know now, uh, like, you know, I, I didn't necessarily understand in the same way that you're saying, like, it's like, Oh, like a game could be bad and, uh, there, there could be flaws with it in that way.
00:44:01
Speaker
you know Yeah, it never occurred to me to be frustrated at police quest for all of its like oddities that it's just like I have a game where I get to be a police officer and my job is to play this game until either I run out of ways to play it or I get another game or I finish it. like I mean, that yeah, that was kind of like all that was there for me. Yeah. Now, let me ask you a question, Ben.
Vision of a Sierra Game and Quest for Glory
00:44:25
Speaker
Sure.
00:44:27
Speaker
Close your eyes. Okay. can You can tell we we have video to each other. I can confirm to all the listeners. Yeah. ben's Eyes and are closed. Eyes are closed. but Okay. Now. Imagine the abstract concept of a Sierra game. Speaking of eras, like what era of Sierra game comes to your mind if you like have to imagine the abstract concept of a series? Easy. No, I immediately think of ah your your SCI 1 1 and 2 like BGA game. So I'm thinking.
00:45:03
Speaker
Uh, like I, I'm thinking a little past King's quest five, but I am thinking close to that. So I'm thinking conquest of the long bow. I'm thinking, uh, I mean, really, you know, this is, uh, probably my, like certainly my most played Sierra game. Maybe my favorite, but certainly my most played the one that I play all the time. I go back and I replay it. I replay it. I replay it.
00:45:33
Speaker
is, and you know, these are so Larry five is, uh, is quest for glory one VGA, uh,
00:45:43
Speaker
It's good game, which, which I just, I, I, I love that game so much. And it's a, it's a world that I love to be in. I love the weird, uh, like clay sculpts, uh, that they modeled all of the character portraits on. I love, uh, just the way that the town looks. I understand that it loses like some of the color in the, um,
00:46:11
Speaker
like the the look of the size zero ah version, which I and I love, I love that look. But there's just something about like, Uh, for me, quest for glory one is not only my default Sierra game, but it's, uh, uh, the VGA version, but it's also like a very comfortable game. Like it's, yeah it's a, it's a world I like to exist in. Um, it's just a place I love to be in the town of Spielberg, uh, uh, constantly. And so it's like, if I'm thinking of a game, I'll think of that. I'll think of King's quest six.
00:46:46
Speaker
Um, like that, that particular era of Sierra games is what I think of. I close my eyes and I think of Sierra games. So I know you asked that question, having an answer and yeah the theme, I assume I know the answer to it. yeah that yeah I mean, exactly. I think it's back to our idea of, you know, era is what you're exposed to and everything because for me.
00:47:07
Speaker
It's absolutely AGI. I wouldn't say AGI is necessarily my favorite era. I'm probably an SCI i zero guy. Like I love the mix of the parser and the upgraded graphics and sound. Like for me, you know, we've had this discussion before, but you know, I'm a Quest for Glory 1 EGA guy. um yeah just I love both of them. VGA is a fantastic remake. It's one of the few CRO remakes that I think It's the best one. Yeah, I mean, I think far and away, it's it's the best of the bunch. But yeah, for me, definitely what when I think about a Sierra game, my brain flashes up like an AGI style image. And yeah, even though you know I love the later ones, there's just something about that to me that is just like primordial. it It's weird. It's just like, it's it's to my heart in a weird in a weird way.
00:48:00
Speaker
AGI games will always look to me. I think it's the the color palette, the low resolution. Like everything has to be kind of bit like first off like those that that that color palette is you know, they're very bright and bold colors and then that you have to draw everything so big. Um, you know, it has like the storybook quality. um ah They all look Like, you know, there generally ah are like a lot of fine detail. It's a lot of very big, you know, big colors and ah like big shapes and stuff. Again, like, you know, if you look at like the cliff face, a lot of cliff faces look pretty complicated in AGI games.
00:48:49
Speaker
like yeah King's Quest 3 or in ah Space Quest 2 you know like those have some very like complex what would do you say is the best this is so The reason that we, uh, uh, uh, like picked this for discussion is that, uh, on your stream, uh, you, you did a summer of AGI games. You played what what games did you play? Gosh, I played all the hits. Uh, let's see. I played leash suit. Larry won. I played, uh, what did he say?
00:49:31
Speaker
Welcome. Yeah, that's great. I played Lucy Larry one. I played Kings quest one through four, the AGI version of Kings quest four.
00:49:43
Speaker
Thank you. Uh, I played space quest one and two. and so I played gold rush and black cauldron. Both of those were my first time playing those two first time. Would you say?
00:49:58
Speaker
but What would you say is the best? And neither of us have played Manhunter, correct? I know. I've never played Manhunter. I'm afraid of it. Manhunter has a reputation of being very difficult. That's like floating eyeballs too and some weird stuff. I don't know. Like everything I see about it, she's like, I don't know if I want to mess with that game. Yeah. Might steal your soul. That's right. Yeah. I don't want my soul stolen. Yeah. ah Like.
00:50:27
Speaker
I really love the look of a lot of AGI games. So this is very tough. And it's funny because it's like, I'll look at like almost every AGI game when I play it for like a while or I'll watch someone stream it or, ah you know, look at screenshots. I'll be like, actually, this one might be the best looking one. and Okay. but What are your picks? Which ones jump out at you as the best looking of the AGI ah bunch?
00:50:51
Speaker
Uh, gold rush has to be very close to the top. I think gold rush is one of the absolute most beautiful AGI games. I think like as a, you know, I was just talking about how, uh, like, you know, there, uh, it's not much on detail. Gold rush is all about detail, tons and tons and tons of very fine work.
00:51:17
Speaker
In the the detail, you have a bunch of varied settings. you have like You start out in New York City. You can go three different routes, including like a road, a rainforest. You end up in caves. You go to a fort. There's all sorts of... Every environment.
00:51:37
Speaker
There's all these different environments, they all look really cool. I would say Gold Rush, I'll give you three. Gold Rush, I think ah Space Quest 2 is kind of like, so um like Mark Crowe was one of the main Uh, uh, artists there, uh, and, uh, like, you know, uh, space quest two is the game he co-designed. And I think so much about, uh, but labion that's the point. Yes. Like, I think like in that cave, there's like that waterfall scene. Absolutely
00:52:13
Speaker
absolutely beautiful and then I would say and maybe there's recency bias here I was watching and and there's more we can and will say about black cauldron itself as a game but I mean and also I think this is Mark Crow right I i think black cauldron is absolutely just Beautiful.
Visual Style and Aesthetics of AGI Games
00:52:39
Speaker
The way it works the color palette. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. it It really works the color palette in a way that none of the other AGI games do. And to great effect, like that scene of overlooking the horned King's castle or whatever, like the purple swirly skies. I love it. I mean, I loved it so much. Basically you ripped it off for a leveling stair quest. I was like, I want a level that looks like that. Cause that looks so good.
00:53:04
Speaker
I would say those, like just just off the top of the dome, I would say those three hey are the most beautiful ah AGI games. But I think you can make an argument for like Kings Quest III or IV. But like Kings Quest III, like you could you could make a good argument for a lot of them. I think there are ah like many of them have a ah good argument for it. What would you say?
00:53:32
Speaker
I think that's a solid list. you know i think i mean Gold Rush is without question a gorgeous game. Part of me, and this is maybe the opposite of recency bias since I just played Gold Rush for the first time in the last couple of weeks,
00:53:47
Speaker
um I think for me, some of those scenes while they're gorgeous are a little busy with all the, uh, all the detail. like i can i Yeah, I can see that gravitate a little bit more toward maybe some of the simplicity of some of the other games, like I think for me King's quest three is way up there. I like it a little better than four, probably for the same reason. I think King's quest four in trying to downscale the SCI version ends up with a few scenes. They're a little busy, but still it's a great looking game. I mean, I think that, uh, I liked the look of three a little bit better. I would agree, uh, space quest to just a fantastic looking game. I think but
00:54:34
Speaker
the problem got you Like that, or like that creature, like that, that stone alien. Yes. It's like vomiting water. Like that looks so good. It does. I think what holds space quest two back is that like, there's just not a lot of opportunity once you get to the asteroid at the end.
00:54:55
Speaker
for it to really look good. All of those just sort of turn into generic space stationy scenes and they get really repetitive. So the back half of the game is less exciting than the stuff on on labian or labian. I'm not sure i'm not sure how we're pronouncing that these days, but Whichever it is. Yeah, those those two are ah King's Quest III, Space Quest II, and then yeah Gold Rush and Black Cobb. I think we kind of landed on the same ones. I think there's a ah strong argument for all of them.
00:55:29
Speaker
Larry one looks pretty good. ah Very colorful, a little simple, but you know, they were still figuring out the details ah there at that point. um You know, but yeah, I think that ah black cauldron does some neat stuff. I'm really for a game that I did not enjoy.
00:55:46
Speaker
No, like much at all. No, it's it's a gorgeous game. bad yeah Yeah, I'm afraid it's a bad game. Like, yeah, I'm looking at screenshots right now since I already had Moby Games open of like Black Cauldron. ah And like you were playing the the ah Apple 2GS version, which has a slightly different palette. yeah I'm looking at the the the DOS ah version of it.
00:56:12
Speaker
And I just love, I mean, it looked the, the two GS version of it. I think this, this version, like the DOS version, like it does so many interesting things with like contrast and like the, the way that the torches light the interior of the the castle. I'm sure I don't know, like, but I assume that they were like looking at or Mark Crow was looking at like.
00:56:38
Speaker
you know, sells from the the movie or like drawing. So he also had like a little bit of a point of reference. Maybe I haven't seen the movie. ah you You've seen it.
00:56:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it does, I mean, it follows the movie pretty closely and a lot of the scenes are very recognizable. And I do know that having read a little bit of the history on this, that I think Al Lowe and Roberta Williams got to go to Disney and actually see the sales and stuff, but a lot of that was brought back, I believe for Mark and the rest of the team to look at too. And that's what I wondered as well, since Mark Crow ah was responsible for the art in so many of these AGI games,
00:57:17
Speaker
The fact that that one's so different, I have to assume is the influence of, I mean, I doubt it was hands-on influence from Disney. Surely they weren't sitting there saying it's like, oh, this is how we think you should use your 16 color palette. But I have to think that working from a source like that probably explains why it plays around with color a little bit differently than most of Mark's other games.
00:57:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's a it's a really beautiful a ah game. um And then ah ah so, like, one of the other things I was thinking about, like looking at like these AGI games, and, and this kind of gets to like, yeah it is this, this loops back to something we were discussing earlier, which is it's like an interesting and funny thing about it.
00:58:11
Speaker
like about all of these games and about like black cauldron and gold rush and all of these like other ones where they kind of color outside the lines a little bit, uh, in terms of game design is that they have like a real kind of like, we don't, we're, we're, uh, we, we're not all the way there yet on what adventure game design would be. Some might argue that Sierra games took a long time to get there, but like,
00:58:38
Speaker
Uh, but like, you know, like black cauldron has, uh, you have to eat and drink for some reason. ah Super fun. Very fun mechanic.
00:58:50
Speaker
Uh, like, you know, uh, gold rush, uh, very clearly is this edutainment. Like it has a feel of a, you know, they saw the success of Oregon trail and we're like, Oh, we can make an adventure game version of Oregon trail. And, and like someone might say like, well, Oregon trail like is replayable.
00:59:12
Speaker
So I say, well, we'll, you'll be able to play gold rush three times. Um, that's right. Each time better than the last. Yeah. Each one has a completely different, uh, completely random ways to kill you that you have no control over. Yeah. I mean, sometimes things just go wrong. I think the game actually says something along those exact lines does. It's like sometimes bad things happen. Yeah. it's like You know, I, I, yeah.
00:59:39
Speaker
I guess that's an important lesson to teach children, but I don't know. Did I ever tell you about, this is, I've definitely talked about this on the stream. Did I ever tell you that ah I had a ah unit in middle school where ah we had to play Oregon trail. This was Oregon trail three. Oh wow. cdro Yeah.
01:00:01
Speaker
Uh, and we got graded on how well, uh, you did on, you just had an expression, which people won't, but we got graded on how well you did on it. And it's like Oregon trail is a game that relies on a lot of RNG.
01:00:17
Speaker
uh like you can't like be docked points on your grade if like you know one of the kids dies in the covered wagon because it's not like sometimes it's just you know a kid gets yellow fever and then just dies like that's it you know but yeah i mean shit happens that's exactly it my teacher should have had a little bit more yeah Uh, my teacher should have had a little bit more of that gold rush attitude is what I'm saying. It's like sometimes bad things happen. we We should have played gold rush instead. Um, that's amazing. Like, yeah, as, as an educator, when you said you're graded on like the outcome of a game, that is, that is what I'm just imagining seeing my students down. You're like, all right, whoever gets the farthest and Gallagher gets to the A and then we curve it down from there.
01:01:16
Speaker
Um, I would, I would be in the the the middle of the curve. i I think I'm a average, but I'm probably better than your students because they're all kids and they don't think grow up with Gallagher. Um, I think I'm very average among people who play Gallagher, but probably by the stairs of the general population, uh, slightly above average.
01:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's, that's how I am with pinball. I'm, I'm better than, I'm better than you. And I'm better than probably most of those nerds. You don't know that I'm better. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, pinball. That's true. Well, no, I brought you to an arcade and I didn't play it because I didn't want to make you feel uncomfortable. I was like, if I come in here and I just blow Ben's doors off, his whole pinball identity will crumble.
01:02:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's why I keep you around. Yes. So I can always just punch you in the face with my pinball skills. You're always, you're always just lording it over me. You're just like, I got a multi ball today. And I'm like, yeah, that's great. Damn. Good. Congratulations. I see a real pinball. I wouldn't bring that up. It's not that hard.
01:02:27
Speaker
Like, sure. I mean, maybe on a game like fire power. Sure. If you got a multi ball on that, I'd be pretty impressed. But like, if you're just like, Oh, I got a multi ball on, I don't know, tack from Mars. I'd be like, yeah, whatever. I only play star Wars pinball. Can you put that in star Wars pinball terms? Oh, there's multiple star Wars pinballs. So we have to be very clear unlikely.
01:02:46
Speaker
there if There are there are there are many Star Wars and that's before like also, do you count the Mandalorian? Because Mandalorian. Ben, let me ask you this. Yeah.
01:02:58
Speaker
So there was a Star Wars pinball machine. Oh, good. Yeah, let's stay on this. Keep going. Yeah, this is why our listeners won't hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the game room at my college circa 1995, 96. That would be the Data East probably came out in 93 or 94. OK. It was ah designed by John Borg. and yeah How ironic.
01:03:26
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, it's not designed any of the, uh, uh, did not design any of the Star Trek games. Um, uh, I don't think he did, uh, 30th anyway. Well, um, yeah, what I remember is in the attract mode of that game. Like I'd be hanging out in the game room. Yeah. It's like being cool. You know, like an undergrad, you know, like, you know, I was wearing a cigarette.
01:03:52
Speaker
You know, I was wearing a denim jacket with canvas sleeves. Uh, you know, like we i really hope you were, I really was. Yeah. That was absolutely what I was wearing. Yeah. that Absolutely. Uh, and I'm, and I remember the attract mode would do this thing where it was just like pinball. I don't know if it was supposed to be Darth Vader laughing or what, but based on my vague recollection of a sound I heard in 1995, can you tell me what that oosh, oosh, oosh sound was?
01:04:22
Speaker
No, I don't. And the thing is i them all the story is you don't know so much about pinball. That's true. Good point.
01:04:33
Speaker
The last time I played that game, I was playing a version that had custom roms that had been ah that ah fixed ah some of the bugs and the original software ah version ah done by data East. So maybe you didn't have that.
01:04:50
Speaker
but don't I don't want brag, but I got a multi ball every time. Yeah. It's, it's data East games and handed out a multi balls like candy. AGI games though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, you know, you're like,
01:05:11
Speaker
AGI games, and like obviously the size you're like before, before you add mouse controls, it does have a little bit of this arcade.
Arcade Elements in Adventure Games
01:05:21
Speaker
Like it has a little bit of this arcade element to it, which obviously in, in, we're going to segue to it. We're going to talk about it. Uh, you know, you, uh, uh, uh, took as a major inspiration, like there's.
01:05:38
Speaker
Because you are in direct control of the characters in a way that you aren't even when you're playing out like a point and click. Like because in a point and click, like you click somewhere and they walk to it. If you're using like your keyboard, they are directly reacting immediately to every input. And so ah the the AGI games have like a little bit I don't know if you'd call it an arcade element to it but it's like you had like the stairs yeah I mean steering a character is almost arcade it's weird like AGI games have a bizarre control scheme and one that I think baffles people who've never played one before this idea that you like hit a direction with your cursor
01:06:23
Speaker
and the character just careens in that direction until you press that same direction again or reroute them elsewhere. I think it's weird. I think most people intuitively assume you hold down a cursor to move a character. When you let go of it, that's when they'll stop. And that's how it worked if you played those games with a joystick, which is what it is. So as you like, let go of the joystick. I think we had the joystick on our PC Junior as well. Yeah. Yeah. But it's weird. It's a weird control scheme and it makes,
01:06:52
Speaker
That combined with the challenge of taking 3D spaces and rendering them in low resolution 2D, you know, like a staircase just creates what's ultimately should be, I mean, I don't know. I'm guessing most, you know, monarchs of small kingdoms around the world probably can walk up and down stairs pretty reliably. And like the death rate is low.
01:07:18
Speaker
Yeah. Then you're shaking your head. You say, no, you, you have less faith in the monarchy. Are you putting the monarchy on blast right here? And now yeah monarchs, you're bad at stairs. Wow. Yeah. Oof. We're see that in the headlines.
01:07:37
Speaker
But i I think in these games, there was like kind of like, I wonder, I wonder if you ask, like, if you were to ask, you know, someone that worked on, on those games, like was there ah because it has these, these segments where you have to like walk down complicated stairs.
01:07:57
Speaker
ah And they're in multiple games. It wasn't just in one game. It was in many games. All of these games had fucking stairs in them. From King's Quest 1 on. King's Quest 1 has that spiral staircase ah from the the giant's cloud. um ah Like all of these games had these these staircases, these complicated, difficult staircases.
01:08:23
Speaker
Uh, and, and part of me like has to think, like, did they think that this was like, if they keep putting it in. Like was this supposed to to to be like a little bit more of like this this arcade type of thing, you know what I'm saying? Like because in and Black Cauldron, which I was watching the the the your VOD ah earlier today, like there's a segment where you're climbing up a wall and there's like boulders falling down in segments of the wall that you can't touch or you'll immediately die. Like that's kind of like an arcade type segment, right?
01:09:02
Speaker
It is. I mean, it's a good question, too, because, you know, I think about something like that. And it's like how the game design process worked back then, especially at Sierra, which seems to be like they're just making everything up as they went yeah through a lot, really way further into their history than you think.
01:09:18
Speaker
But, you know, probably wonders, it's like, is that just something as the artist on a lot of these games that Mark Crow threw in there? Cause he thought it was interesting or he liked drawing staircases or he thought it would be a fun gameplay element. Or was this like part of the designs? Like we want this part to be difficult. But then when you get to things there, like actual.
01:09:41
Speaker
arcade sequences. You have the boulder scene from Black Cauldron, the but skimmer in Space Quest I. I think that those elements, hey again, are are pretty innovative for Sierra, mixing up you know adventure with more action, arcadey elements. And I know at the time, this is controversial. like In and computer gaming world, Scorpia was not happy with the arcade sequences in Space Quest I. The Skimmer sequence got its own little box out in Scorpia's review with complaints about how maybe these sorts of arcade elements have no business in the adventure genre.
01:10:18
Speaker
And s Scorpia, if you're out there, uh, because I know she's, she's kind of receded from the eye. It's like, Hey, you did some good work. Yes. We, like, we stand Scorpia, but, uh, you know, it's interesting and it's also, I think, you know, this kind of ties again into something I've been thinking about with these, which is like, there's ah With adventure games now, the if a if a game comes out ah today and a lot of them, and we'll probably have like a whole, a whole ass episode discussing this, like it will be like, they'll say like a monkey Island style or a Lucas art style adventure game or something like that. And it's like, to me, what that means is, and I'll look at this and then I'll look at.
01:11:09
Speaker
You know, this, the steam store page description of like your pixel AGS, uh, uh, throwback adventure game where it's just like, there's a very prescribed. Of exactly what an adventure game is and what the puzzles are like and what the dialogue that you have with, uh, uh, characters is like, and this, that, and the other.
01:11:36
Speaker
Uh, and, uh, these games, uh, it seems to me like there wasn't that prescription and they might not even have been yelled at like, but you know, there are BBSs and whatever, but it's like, they probably, and and I'm sure people are sending them letters, but it's like, they probably weren't being yelled at that much.
01:11:58
Speaker
about, like, it's like, that's not what an adventure game it, you know, like, I mean, and maybe it was, I bet if, you know, we get more crow in here, it'll be like, Oh yeah, no, we were yelled at all the time.
Evolution of Adventure Games and Fan-Made Projects
01:12:09
Speaker
What the hell are you saying? Who yelled at every day? I suspect there were some people that are like, Oh, you're dumbing down this genre that infocom is trying to turn into like, you know, serious interactive fiction.
01:12:22
Speaker
you know you're You're taking this and you're dumbing it down into fairy tales where the puzzles are simple and the yeah the the parser is limited and all this sort of stuff. So I bet, I know those sorts of criticism floated around at the time, you that you've taken this in ah in ah in a bad direction there. But yeah, it's it's interesting to think about. you know the I'm trying to think of like when in Sierra's history like the the formula started to gel a little bit. I mean, again, so much of it's there in Kings Quest 1, but it feels like that is arrived at almost as a happy accident. and then they Then they experiment and iterate, and then I felt that they eventually come back to something. But sir yeah, there is experimentation in these titles, and I think that's part of the fun too.
01:13:12
Speaker
Uh, and I, I would, so let's, let's talk a little bit about, uh, stair quest. Okay. You were part of a, I think everybody that that's listening to this knows what stair quest is. I don't know. You made stair quest. That's great. Or you're part of a team that made stair quest. A lot of people worked on stair quest.
01:13:34
Speaker
Um, but yeah, like, you know, it's just interesting. I'm not even saying that it's bad, that it's, it's so prescribed what an adventure game is, or it's like, well, if it's not this, it's like a mist type of game, something like that. It's just kind of interesting that like, there's that.
01:13:55
Speaker
you know, they were kind of making it up as as they went along. And so it's just like, Oh, well, you know, ah ah this is what ah today I've decided that Taron, that's the name of the main character in black cauldron. He has to eat and drink.
01:14:10
Speaker
And people love that. And you can run out of food and water if you aren't careful. And then it's just game over. Uh, you know, we're in soft block heaven. I mean, these AGI yeah games are the land of soft blocks, right? I mean, that is, I think maybe more so than any other run of games and adventure game history. This is where you're going to find the most brutal series of soft blocks and in most of these games. Yeah. Like, like, you know, say what you will about like,
01:14:37
Speaker
You know, some of the, the, the later Sierra output, which, which had them, but I mean, boy, oh boy. With a, they would that come to bite you in the ass. in an AGI game. And, and before I were, I feel like we're coming towards the end here. Um, I don't have a lot to say on this, but I'm just kind of curious. Did you, I played a little bit of like one or two, but not enough to really have formed an opinion. There are homebrew AGI games.
01:15:08
Speaker
Uh, like, you know, there were what, there's what two or three space quest AGI games, right? Yeah. The big ones are the lost chapter and, uh, the, uh, space was zero replicated to me a second there. Yeah.
01:15:25
Speaker
And like those, you know, those do some, I mean, for my recollection, playing them a long time ago, they do very interesting things with it. Like they, they put so much game, ah probably more than you could have fit into, you know, four, five and a quarter floppies.
01:15:42
Speaker
like I don't know how big replicated was. No, I mean, it's it's tiny by the scale, you know, by the standards. And yeah, they do neat things, you know, adding like close up cut scenes and some other things that most AGI games weren't playing around with, especially the earlier AGI game. So yeah, that community was out there and and there are a bunch beyond that that I haven't played. I have, to be honest, I haven't played a lot of the AGI fan games either. I mean, we made stair quest. It's of course an AGS game that's just made to look like it's an AGI game because the thought of trying to create it in AGI would have been so much more daunting. Yeah. I mean, AGS, like, you know, I've made something in AGS, like it's, it's, it's doable.
01:16:27
Speaker
like it's It's a doable thing. You can mess around with it. Have I ever released anything at AGS? No. I just tootled around ah with it and was like, Oh, look.
01:16:38
Speaker
Uh, that little, uh, Roger, uh, from space quest four, if that's in the game, I made him walk around the screen. I mean, that's the dream. That's the dream. I mean, as a, as a nerdy kid, like that is the greatest thing in the world you can do, right? To, uh, to yeah do your own little version of one of these silly games. Yeah.
01:16:59
Speaker
So, uh, is there anything else on this topic before we, we slam the door shut and never speak about another AGI game ever again in our entire lives or ever play one? This is it. We're done. Well, I guess shout out to the creators of AGI, Chuck Tingley and Ken McNeal and Ben, I'm curious, do you think AGI would have been different?
01:17:21
Speaker
if instead of Chuck Tingly working on it, if Chuck Tingle had been one of the lead developers. Yeah, you know, like, yeah, it would be what I'm trying to think of a double entendre King's Quest ah name. And, you know, it's just completely escaping me of like, I don't know, King's breast. I don't know.
01:17:43
Speaker
Nailed it. You did. Congrats. That's it, Ben. I actually DM Chuck Tingle before the stream and I said, come up with a title based on KeysQuest. That's what Chuck Tingle gave too. ah So you nailed it. I bet this is really hitting the core audience right now, making Chuck Tingle jokes.
01:17:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, uh, then I think, uh, then with all that, thank you, uh, to, to the, uh, uh, everybody that's ever touched an ATI game in any form. Yes. Uh, and that includes myself. Uh, so, uh,
01:18:18
Speaker
I think that wraps it up. Let me pull up if you want to send us an email that we can discuss and we're recording these well in advance so maybe you know it will be discussed ah you know and several episodes from now.
01:18:34
Speaker
But if you want to send us an email, send us an email at QuestQuestPodcast at gmail dot.com. We might read it. ah Or you could always follow us on our respective twitches, where I am PS underscore
01:19:00
Speaker
But you can follow us both there or send us an email or find our Discord and talk to us directly there. But until next time, thank you so much for joining us for...