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Episode 288: And the Category Is ... Ricky Tucker
192 Plays3 years ago
Ricky Tucker is a writer, teacher, and voguer. He's the author of And the Category Is ... New York's Vogue, House, and Ballroom Community (Beacon Press).
Sponsor love: West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA in Creative Writing
Social Media: @CNFPod
Newsletter: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Audio Magazine Submission Extension
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, before we get rocking and rolling in the garage
00:00:06
Speaker
It's not a garage. I was trying to do a garage band kind of thing. Whatever. I want to remind you that submission deadline for issue three of the audio magazine has been extended to the end of the year, December 31st. The theme is heroes. Do with that what you will. Essays must be no more than 2,000 words, bear in mind. It's an audio essay, so pay attention to how the words tumble out of your mouth.
00:00:33
Speaker
Email your submissions with heroes in the subject line to Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail.com. And I pay writers, too. Yeah. You heard me say it. That burrito money. Dig it.
00:00:48
Speaker
I am a voguer sure you know and I do that for myself, but I don't walk a ball and so i'm not really i'm not ballroom but i'm definitely of it, which is. Ironically, the perfect space to write a book about it because you're not so close that you can't tell the truth, you know.
Introducing Ricky Tucker
00:01:10
Speaker
Oh, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories on Brendan O'Mara at Brendan O'Mara. How's it going? Ricky Tucker is here to talk about his new book, and the category is Inside New York's Vogue House and Ballroom Community. It's published by Beacon Press. That's two weeks in a row of a Beacon Press book.
00:01:35
Speaker
Can I get some love beacon press? Some digital fist bumps? Give me a retweet over here. This conversation was the first ever live CNF pod event from this past weekend, depending on when you're listening to this.
00:01:52
Speaker
Part of Goucher College's MFA in Creative Nonfiction is called the Nonfiction Sessions. It was great. It was a pretty vibrant event. Tons of really cool panels from all sorts of just whip-smart, talented
00:02:09
Speaker
badass people in the CNF community. It's pretty wild. I need to thank episode 8 CNF Pod alum, my good pal Maggie Meset, for inviting me to do this, as well as my second semester Goucher Mentor, Leslie Rubinkowski. If you like the life and times of Elvis impersonators, she's got a great book about it. Go check it out.
00:02:31
Speaker
I think it's called impersonating Elvis. Hold on, I'm going to Google that right now. Because wouldn't that just be embarrassing that I would not know the title of her book? One of my big things when I was doing my MFA.
00:02:49
Speaker
knowing full well that they were going to be, all my mentors are going to be reading all of my garbage. I was like, you know, I'm going to make sure I at least read their work if they have multiple books, at least one book. And so in any case, Leslie's book, it was, it is impersonating Elvis. So there, I did remember it right.
00:03:12
Speaker
So it was important to me to read their work because it was just an unfair balance of ability and talent for them to give me as much attention as I was a needy person. And I was like, well, at least I can do is read Kevin Carain, Tom French, Dick Todd, and Leslie's work. So I did.
Ricky Tucker's Background
00:03:35
Speaker
Anyway, here's a little bit about Ricky Tucker, pulling from his website. Ricky Tucker is a North Carolina native, storyteller, SIS teacher, and art critic. His work explores the imprints of art and memory on narrative,
00:03:50
Speaker
and the absurdity of most fleeting moments. He is the former editor of 12th Street Journal and has contributed to Big Red and Shiny, The Paris Review, The Tenth Magazine, and Lambda Literary. And has performed for reading series including The Moth, The Moth Grand Slam, Sister Spit, Born Free, and Spark London Among
00:04:20
Speaker
others. Pretty, pretty great, pretty great. Hey, support for the creative nonfiction podcast is brought to you by West Virginia Wesleyan colleges, low residency, MFA and creative writing. Now in its 10th year, this affordable program boasts a low student to faculty ratio and a strong sense of community. Recent CNF faculty include random billings, noble,
00:04:42
Speaker
Jeremy Jones and Sarah Einstein. There's also fiction and poetry tracks with recent faculty there being Ashley Bryant Phillips and Jacinta Townsend, as well as Diane Gilliam and Savannah Simple. No matter your discipline, man, if you're looking to up your craft or learn a new one, consider West Virginia Wesleyan right in the heart of Appalachia. Go to MFA.wvwc.edu for more information and dates of enrollment.
Engaging with the Podcast Community
00:05:10
Speaker
and you can always keep the conversation going on social media at cnfpod on twitter and at creative non-fiction podcast on instagram head over to BrendanOmero.com for show notes and to sign up for my monthly up to 11 newsletter book recommendations book raffles cool articles exclusive happy hour writing prompts 11 cool things who's got a better than us first of the month no spam can't beat it
00:05:55
Speaker
Sweet. Nice.
Childhood Anecdote: Pranks and Storytelling
00:05:57
Speaker
Well, since we're maybe a little bit shorter on time here, Ricky, we can get rocking and rolling and get right into this thing. And I wanted to start this conversation off before we dive into your wonderful new book that I wanted to ask you if it's true that you played a prank on your teacher when you were in elementary school by dusting her chair with chalk on April Fool's Day.
00:06:05
Speaker
Alright, you ready for Ricky? Me too.
00:06:22
Speaker
How do you know that? That's hilarious. Yeah, Miss Davis. Yeah. It was April Fool's Day. I was doing a string of pranks. My grandma came in from England and I watched too much Home Alone. And I put a bucket of water on top of the door so when she opened it, it fell. Tried it at school.
00:06:42
Speaker
I took the chalk erasers and dusters and wiped them all over her chair. And so there was a print on her butt the entire day. But it backfired because she thought I was trying to steal her purse. So I learned the hard way not to play pranks on people. How did you know that? Well, I read that essay of yours about why I hate purses. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah, the purse link. There you go. OK.
00:07:08
Speaker
Nice, and now give me a sense and tell me about your experience with Cragfast.
Early Influences on Writing
00:07:13
Speaker
Maybe you can define that for people and what that was like.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, my friend Andy took me, so I have a connection to England. I did grad school there and I was born there and I have some family that stayed there for a long time. So my friend Andy was like, okay, we'll take you to like see Ipswich where you were born and then we'll go to Wales at some point. And we went to Wales and we went to the mountain called Snowdoughan. And I'm afraid of heights, but I've climbed mountains. I'm from North Carolina. I've camped and climbed more mountains than any gay man ever should. And I went there thinking I'd be fine. And then we got to a certain point of elevation.
00:07:45
Speaker
and I just thought like I can't move anymore like I can't go up anymore my body just is telling me it's all wrong and then I had to sit down I felt woozy and I literally crawled on all fours to reach the summit which at the summit of the mountain was like a gift shop and a cafe so that was weird too it was like I climbed I like crawled my way to just like this capitalistic venture which was hilarious yeah
00:08:08
Speaker
Yes, Cragfast. We got back down to the base of the mountain and the woman told us, the camp woman told us that people have that condition all the time. They think they're fine and they get to the mountain and they can't budge anymore. And they feel like they're just going to tip over and it's called Cragfast. So I learned a new word that day. Nice. So then you reach the summit and then you're like, it looks like you have Cragfast. Here's a croissant.
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Here's a good thought and a Welsh key chain. Yeah. To commemorate this moment. Your trauma. Yeah.
00:08:41
Speaker
Now something I always love diving into on this show is getting a sense of how we get the writer bug. Given that this line of work, to quote my good friend Glenn Stout, is nothing about this line of work makes sense. And we do it anyway. So I was wondering, maybe you can speak to how you got the writerly bug early on and then started to cultivate that.
00:09:05
Speaker
I grew up with my great grandmother who was an educator and studied early childhood development and Montessori method. She was one of those folks who were black in the 20s and 30s and 20s to 50s actually like when she was studying and went to France for a while and studied Montessori and stuff. So when she came back to the States
00:09:25
Speaker
and retired and went back down to North Carolina to teach. She was doing a lot of tutoring for kids in the neighborhood and teaching them phonics and giving them agency as learners. And she would always do the thing. I mean, she was kind of a mean woman. So she would do this thing where she was like, you know, like,
00:09:42
Speaker
god damn it the G is silent and like cuss a poor little child out like and then be like Ricky come in here and show them how to do it and so then I would have to read you know like effortlessly and then be embarrassed then have to see them in school the next day and be like sorry my grandma's mean you know like um but uh what that did was let me know that a like a I have like a capacity for this stuff like for reading and writing and um and that teaching and
00:10:06
Speaker
is just as important to me. So they're intrinsically linked. But when I was little, I would get assignments. Actually, in Miss Davis's class, the same woman I tortured on April Fool's Day, she had a prompt like, just write about your favorite toy. And I wrote about this toy named Bobo, who was a stuffed bear that my little sister had. And when I read, I said something about smoky eyes or something like that. And really, he had marbles for eyes. So it wasn't that dramatic.
00:10:32
Speaker
But you know, I love Bobo, right? And so when I finished reading, everybody was staring at me. And then this kid, Siler Sutherland, next to me goes, that was really good. And I was embarrassed at the time, but that moment stayed with me. And I realized that I have a capacity to make people feel things just by jotting something down. And I barely even tried at that point. So yeah, just seeing people's reaction and also wanting to be of service with what I do. I don't think of artistry as just
00:10:58
Speaker
The muse is talking to you. It's like an act of service, and it's a way to learn. And I just want to be of service.
Identity as a Writer
00:11:05
Speaker
Right. And that's so important to have that moment when you're younger, when you have something to say, and then it does resonate with your peers or your audience. And at that moment when your friend said, oh, that was good, was there someone else in your orbit at the time who
00:11:27
Speaker
who saw that kernel in you and started to cultivate that and nourish that in you so you could maybe gain some altitude with it.
00:11:35
Speaker
There have been people along the way. I mean, I'm really sort of a loner in life, but I have a lot of people who love and support me. And so I'm learning as an adult to take advantage of that or like to say yes to their help. But there are people, being as much of a loner as I am, when people play that position of mentor or just like encouraging me, it stays with me. And Mr. Toms, my elementary, my kindergarten teacher in elementary school, he said, he always used to call me Dr. Ricky Tucker, MD.
00:12:03
Speaker
like I'm not a doctor right but like when you call a five-year-old that that like sticks out you know and every time he would say it um so he was really pivotal in that and then a college professor I turned in one final paper right before I dropped out of that school and he said whatever you do keep doing this you know um so just little you just pay attention to those and stop being embarrassed by what you're meant to do
00:12:26
Speaker
And at what point do you realize that it's something that you might want to take on as a vocation? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Starting higher education and needing to pay bills, is that an okay answer? It's an okay one, but man, writing to pay bills, I don't know. That's a tough one. That's tough sledding. It's a long road to take for sure.
00:12:51
Speaker
But I think of it as a trait, too. And all my day jobs are winning. And I feel very fortunate in that. But it's not impossible. You just have to have enough examples of what writing is around you. And college does that for you a lot. But yeah, you just have to have sort of an imagination. But that being said, I am not rich at all.
00:13:13
Speaker
This, this, this, have I, you know, is it a career? It's still kind of TBD every day. Oh, every day. Part of it. Yeah. A TV day to the day we die. Seriously. He was a writer. He not is one, but he was one. Yeah. Oh, my graves, they'll say he was a writer. Yeah. Has been determined at that point.
00:13:31
Speaker
So getting to that sense that it is something that is always ever evolving, and I often lean on sport metaphor as a way for at least me to understand what it means for hard work and rigor.
00:13:46
Speaker
You know, whether it be Basque. I just read the the Giannis biography on, you know, two time MVP. I'm not going to try to pronounce his last name right now, but it's a multisyllabic Greek surname. And just throughout that book, he was always talking about taking those extra shots, taking the free throws, working, working, working. And so when something is physical, we can really see what hard work is. It translates.
00:14:11
Speaker
You run further, you run faster, you get more endurance and you build up that muscle a bit more. With writing in the arts, it can be a little bit more nebulous and hard to grab onto. So I wonder for you, Ricky, how do you define hard work and rigor when it comes to writing and doing this thing that we do?
00:14:30
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. I feel like I know when I haven't written enough, you know, and I put myself in enough situations where someone like I'm being held accountable and there's a deadline. So that's the deadline is really motivating.
00:14:45
Speaker
Um but I don't know I mean I just again it's I think New York was really pivotal for me in that I mean I wrote a little bit and when I lived in Boston for about 10 years but then I moved here and went to the new school and then I just saw like a lot of people that were doing stuff that I thought was cool and that you know the classes that I ended up taking at the new school were really really cool and sort of inspired the book too so like the first three classes I took were with these heavyweight titans of
00:15:11
Speaker
publishing and artistry. And I took a class called Old Weird America with Grill Marcus. That was about the history of sort of Bob Dylan and how he co-ops certain cultures, but then also how he's amazing. So I wanted to sort of dissect that. And so that was really cool. So I know that art criticism is a lane that I should be in, hence the book. But then Vogology was a course that I took too about the ballroom scene and how you
00:15:38
Speaker
It was theory-based, but then also practice. So it was, we learned how to vogue, but we learned about the community too. And then I took a trans genre class with the New York writer, Lynn Tillman, and she's a personal friend of mine now and it became a thesis advisor. So I just, and then I worked with John Reed, who's sort of a big New York author too. So like, I think just being in spaces where you like the people and then the opportunities just sort of come in and you just, if you're interested in it, do that, you know?
00:16:05
Speaker
stay interested. So I mean, I've been working a lot, but it hasn't really felt like work. As a matter of fact, I feel guilty for not working as hard as I should in my mind. But that's all of our own insecurities. That's our everyone's got that problem. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the getting
00:16:21
Speaker
Sometimes there's a lot of things, whether it be physical or something more ethereal, but it's like there are certain things that we do in practice that nobody sees. And that if you're a baseball player, they might be hitting balls off the tee in the basement. No one's seeing that, but it's repetitions that go into the tank and make you a better hitter. What kind of maybe writing or art do you consume or practice
00:16:47
Speaker
that nobody else sees but it does put fuel in your reservoir to do what it is you do and get better at what it is you do. Well, what's really cool is a good part of my research is just watching YouTube videos.
00:17:03
Speaker
like so that is like a hidden gem in my practice and then it really does affect my writing because a lot of it is just me explaining through my lens what happened in media. I'm working on a second book right now called or loosely called but they did do that on television queer dispatches in the golden age of media so it's about how like
00:17:22
Speaker
shows like designing women my favorite show how like i've been waiting for an opportunity just write a whole chapter about designing women in something you know and write about all of these incredible women and like how the show was really progressive and stuff but how that book or how that show
00:17:39
Speaker
spoke to me in queer codes when I was a kid. So really it's just incorporating the things that I'm obsessed with and applying sort of critical theory to them. So to that point, it is strengthening muscles, watching these shows and using a critical lens, but it also feels effortless because that's just how I watch TV. And then writing that way feels a little bit more effortless too.
00:18:00
Speaker
So yeah, it's a lot more fun. I mean, you know, editing is fun to me at this point, that writing is mostly that. So once you do like what everyone calls what the page barf, you know, like you just sort of throw it all down to the fun of it now. I teach a class at the New School reading for writers and I told my students today that like, you know, like don't, if you do a workshop, don't give up on this
The Role of Bad Writing in Creativity
00:18:24
Speaker
piece. Like don't get all these notes from all of us and then just be like, okay, I'm gonna throw it in a pile in the corner.
00:18:29
Speaker
And then when I graduate, I'm going to throw that pile away. Right. I've done that, too. Right. But like, don't do that. Like, because really, you haven't written anything. You just sort of barfed on a page. What you should be doing is just combing and combing until it's painful and then you're still not done. And then all of a sudden it's beautiful and you have something, you know, and it's never really done, but like it's it's the architecture of editing. And so so rereading stuff over and over again used to be excruciating, but now it's just fun.
00:18:58
Speaker
And I think that underscores a great point that a lot of people, especially newer writers, people who might not be quite as experienced, ultimately what we need to get comfortable with is bad writing over and over and over again. Because once we get comfortable with bad stuff and doing that over and over again, good stuff has no choice but to come out eventually.
00:19:19
Speaker
But oftentimes people are embarrassed about the bad writing they're doing or the bad writing they're unwilling to do because they have a perfect vision of what it looks like in their head. And then it starts coming out on the page like, this shit doesn't look good at all. I'm just going to I'm either going to start something new or quit altogether. So maybe.
00:19:38
Speaker
I'm going to look into a new career right now. Yeah, totally. And yeah, I think that might be the most apt sort of like one-on-one with your athletic sort of metaphor. It's just like, yeah, just keep going, keep going. Something's going to happen. Don't give up because it's always garbage the first go around.
00:19:58
Speaker
Oh yeah. And speaking from experience, it's usually garbage through 20 and 30 and 40 drafts of a rewrite. And I know I'm happy to say that it often takes me that often to rewrite, whether it be an essay or a book. And the great Dinty W. Moore of the editor Brevity
00:20:14
Speaker
He talked about that openly when he was on the show a few years ago about writing upwards of a few dozen drafts of something and that was really great because I think a lot of us think that maybe it just falls out great or it only takes a few revisions and then here's these things that we deeply admire and it came out so nice but really it takes just like you said so much editing and revision and they just got to kind of sit with that.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, like, stop being embarrassed in front of only yourself. Right. Like, you're like, oh, this is horrible. It's like, okay, you're just looking at it. Don't show it to someone until it's not so horrible. Like, you know, like, get over it. Just go.
00:20:54
Speaker
Yeah, but we got to grand that shit. Well, I have to say, I feel like the first paragraph of anything is always garbage. Like you get to the second part and you're like, oh, we've actually landed. And the first part is some impressionistic like poem that you thought was appropriate for this nonfiction essay. So like, why not like just like, yeah, post that garbage one just to let everybody know that we're all garbage at first paragraph goes up. That's a good idea. I'm going to start doing that.
00:21:20
Speaker
Give me a sense of what you thought a successful writer looked like to you. Maybe when you were 20 and then maybe as you crested 30, you know, how did that change and what did it look like early and how has it manifested itself to this day?
00:21:33
Speaker
I'm still kind of figuring it out, but I do know that the models were a book and a class, right? Like teaching a book and, I mean, having a book and teaching a class. But now I know it's so many more things than that. Like, you know, now that this book is coming out, I've started doing like, you know, guest lectures, which is really cool. I did one at Bittington last month, and that was great. I also write copy.
00:21:58
Speaker
So I was the in-house senior copywriter for The New School for about five or six years. And so that, you know, I'm a nonfiction writer and that was a very creative nonfiction sort of job, you know. So the tradesmen sort of aspect of writing, people just completely forget about, you know.
00:22:17
Speaker
And although I have a capacity for marketing, I don't necessarily want to do it for the rest of my life. So it's nice to be able to do it for like 20 hours a week and then go teach a class and then be here with you today. Like it's it's it's a lot more than just like a flat thing. Like it's not everyone isn't meant to be Stephen King.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's great to hear. And I think it gives people, it makes them feel less alone that say their writing isn't the thing that is solely supporting them. And whether that be a day job that's anywhere from 30 to 40 hours a week and you find these little nooks and crannies in your schedule to get some writing done, or you're cobbling together several freelancing things that you don't post to Twitter, but it's something that helps pay the bills.
00:22:57
Speaker
So you can do some of the more artistic things that you're proud of that you are certainly going to grim about and put on Twitter. So it's really good to hear you just say that because we're often caught looking over our shoulders and comparing ourselves to other people. And we're wondering, how are they doing that? I want to be doing that, but I don't see them writing these winners and losers from the Daytona 500. So it's good to hear you talk like that.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, writing is so many different things. I mean, I've been paid to write a pilot for a production company for television. It never got picked up, but I got paid. And then if it ever did get picked up, it would be really cool that I wrote this book about ballroom, but secretly, unbeknownst to the world, I wrote this screenplay. I like actually just putting things out into the world and just being diverse and hoping that someone makes the connection, but not needing notoriety for that.
00:23:54
Speaker
per se. It's a service again. I really just like I could write an essay of naval gazing sort of like a book of naval gazing essays and I'm probably going to eventually but in the meantime I liked I really like the idea of like just helping out like yeah being of service useful yeah.
00:24:16
Speaker
And I love in the book, someone asks you your occupation and you say writer, and he's like, no, you're a real job. And I love this idea. I think all of us, a lot of us can relate to that because we won't be at any kind of a party or anywhere and be like, yeah, we're a writer. And you're like, oh, that's cute. So what do you really do? But I love the idea that
00:24:37
Speaker
in that moment you really owned the role. And so I wanted to ask you too, maybe how long did it take you to own that title and that vocation of being a writer? That's a good question. I mean, I can tell you roughly what age. Because I remember I was in a bar in Jamaica Plain in Boston with my friend Heidi. Someone asked us what we did. I think we were just weird and really loud. And she was like, are you guys artists? And Heidi was like, no. And then I was like, hmm.
00:25:07
Speaker
And then I was notably conflicted. And then I ended up being counseled by this random person who was asking me a simple question. She was like, well, you should feel OK calling yourself an artist. What's wrong with you? So from that day forward, I was just like, OK, I don't want to get into that conundrum again. Sure, I'm a writer. I'm an artist. And that does free you up to know what direction you're leaning in. I don't think a degree necessarily did it.
00:25:35
Speaker
I don't I don't know what did. I mean, maybe having a. Maybe having a business card from the new school that said writer on it, that I think that moment definitely did it, but I would it for forever, really?
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah, I can attest to that.
Self-Acceptance as an Artist
00:25:51
Speaker
I cut my teeth as a sports reporter at a newspaper, and of course you're just churning out, you know, gamers and sometimes features laying out the paper. But I never felt like a writer until I had, you know, an essay in just this free online literary journal. And it wasn't until that moment
00:26:11
Speaker
I was like, oh, I feel writerly at this moment. I was churning out words before, but it didn't feel like writing. But that thing, that essay, felt like writing.
00:26:22
Speaker
I think it's kind of like a Chuck Close like a print, right? Like you like kind of like all these little like victories and then you pan out and then at a certain point you're like, Oh, that's Bill Clinton. You know, like it takes a minute, but I do. And it's, it's completely subjective to that point too, because like my friend Kareem who did, he's here actually watching us pay Kareem and he did photography for the book too. He's one of the three photographers. He's brilliant. Kareem Worrell, you should check him out.
00:26:50
Speaker
I remember I got the book deal and I came to his house for like Thanksgiving or something. And I showed him the contract and he looks at me all proud and he goes, fucking writer, right? And I was like, what do you think I've been doing all this time? Like, you know, like, you know, like what that, that's, that's been the goal I've done stuff, but like, you know, to the people around you until something sort of upfront, like on a billboard or like, you know, Googleable or something, or they, you know, then you're a writer. So it's just, it's a mosaic, I think.
00:27:17
Speaker
You start out as one, and then it becomes credible every day. Yeah, for sure.
Exploring Ballroom Culture
00:27:22
Speaker
Once you own it, all the ores start to row in that direction. And then it's like, yeah, you sink into that role. You might feel phony at first in the whole imposter syndrome thing. But the more you own it and the more you live it, the more it becomes palpable and believable to the people you're telling. And then they just say, oh, yeah, of course you are. It's obvious, man. Yeah.
00:27:44
Speaker
I love what you write in the book that I believe were divinely rewarded for taking risks and making space for new experiences to move in. And I wonder for you, maybe you can speak to that sentiment and what it means to the book, but also the experience that you had generating material and really taking part in the book in a sense.
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah, I just, you know, saying yes is like a practice, right? It's like saying yes, going with the flow, following the universe, saying yes. I've done it on many occasions. I mean, I ran away from home when I was 19 and moved to Boston. That changed my life. All of my best friends are from there. I really, I mean, you didn't hear me say this, but reading and like sort of hiding out and doing a bunch of drugs there for 10 years was actually a greater education than like
00:28:32
Speaker
writing school, but like whatever, you know, whatever. Art can't imitate life unless you have a life. That's right. That's right. And can you put a price tag on art? I don't know. Maybe it's like a thousand dollars in tuition. But yeah, it's just taking a lot of risks. I went to grad school in England and I never really lived there before. Well, I had as an infant, but not as an adult. And that was a smart move.
00:29:00
Speaker
um I don't know I just think you just leave yourself open opportunities in the context of the book you know I took this phogology class and then all of a sudden um I was asked to go to like you know ballroom events or like lectures at union theology about the experience of ballroom as a religious experience right and like so I would just show up to things and you know my mentors in the community uh Michael Roberson who's a house father and
00:29:24
Speaker
several houses in Ballroom. And then Robert Simber, who's a public health advocate and just a wonderful man, part of the Vogology Collective, they just would do all these events. And I was like, how can I help? You know, and I had no idea this was like 10 years ago. I had no idea there was going to be a book. I just was so interested, you know, and just they were like, well, just keep showing up then. And I did for a decade.
00:29:46
Speaker
And then somebody suggested, my agent wasn't my agent, just a colleague working with me on a project called 400 Years of Inequality. She saw me, she saw an email with me talking to one of the house fathers, Michael, and she was like, do you want to write a book about ballroom? And I was just like, duh, like, obviously, like that. Of course, that's why I've been hanging around for so long, you know, but I didn't know. And because and that was a relief, too, because I've always felt
00:30:16
Speaker
a little bit like a clinger on because I don't walk balls, I am a voguer, sure, you know, and I do that for myself but I don't walk a ball and so I'm not really, I'm not ballroom but I'm definitely of it, which is ironically the perfect space to write a book about it because you're not so close that you can't tell the truth, you know.
00:30:34
Speaker
And so it came together so organically, so I'm very much a proponent of just sign up for some shit and it'll work out. Unless it costs money you don't have, just go. And also, if it does cost money, like in New York, if it means having a drink with someone you're afraid of, just go. They'll buy it for you, I swear.
00:30:53
Speaker
You know, like, just, yeah, just do stuff. Say yes, it'll lead to something. You can't always see the final product. Everything's in bits and pieces. Our perception is limited. Just go. Something might happen. Now, I'm going to ask you a question you asked of so many people that you interviewed in the book, which is you often preface that, like, I'm going to ask you the question that I've asked everyone else, which is, how did you get into ballroom? How did you arrive at ballroom?
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah, so in GP, Video Underground, I rented Paris is Burning and it was revelatory because I just, it was like, there it is. Like I didn't know what it was, but I knew that like, I knew something smelled fishy about Madonna's Vogue. I knew like, but I love her, but you know, that's complicated and I pose it as such in the book, but I also knew that like there was toxic masculinity both
00:31:48
Speaker
in the world and in the Black community and in the queer community, right? And so when I saw Paris is Burning, it just said to me, oh, this is the space where obviously people are going to be themselves because you don't see this on the street, you know, but this exists.
00:32:04
Speaker
But there was also like sort of like a posed a bunch of hard questions about myself too, and like my internalized homophobia and like what I'm allowed to do and why I can't dance the way I want to dance, you know. Yeah, that's how I found it first through ballroom, I mean through Paris is Burning, but then eventually through that vogology class and then it just sort of exploded from that point on.
00:32:27
Speaker
Yeah, and speaking of that internalized homophobia that you write about and you just mentioned, there's a part in the book, and one of the most vibrant sections of the book, at least for me, was when you're describing your father and your interactions with him, and there's that point, too, where he's talking to you and he's just like, you know, if I found out my son was gay, I'd kill him.
00:32:51
Speaker
and you just gotta let that hang. It's just letting that cord hang, and we're just hanging with that for a while. Maybe you can speak to that in that moment, what a dagger that must be, and then how you have to carry that with you.
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's I mean, my close friends have heard that story over and over again. And it's kind of like, you know, you tell a story like so often that you're like, OK, well, this I'll probably need to write it down if it already isn't written, you know, because it kind of is once you tell it like five times. Right. So it was it's always right here, but also it's traumatic. So it's always right here. But but
00:33:27
Speaker
When I moved to New York, my dad showed up back in my life. He said my mom told him that I was gay, and he didn't care. He married a third wife, and she was Christian, so he was cool with everything. I'm like, OK, whatever. And so I gave him a chance. I told him, I make more than my mom, and I'm trying to get an apartment in New York. If you really want to help out like you never have, then you can be a guarantor for me. And he didn't just say no, because other people said no, and that's fine. But he said,
00:33:53
Speaker
No. And I wouldn't even do this for your siblings or my own mother. And I was like, okay, well, you didn't have to tell me. Like, I'm like, you didn't have to be like, no, but I'm also a dick in these other ways, you know, like, as evidence. So I was like, you know what? Exhibit A, B and C.
00:34:10
Speaker
All the times I've been a dick, so this is consistent, you see? And so I was like, all right, well, just leave me alone. This was a test. You failed it. Stop popping up. And also, I'm going to write a book one day, and you're either going to be starkingly absent or just not like the way that you were represented in it, because you're horrible.
00:34:30
Speaker
And then, I mean, and then this opportunity came in and I realized that like, and I wasn't just doing it to sort of put my dad on blast because I could have gone full throttle. There's a ton of other stuff. But, and I almost implicated my mom too, but she and I are in a really good space. So I just left her kind of out of it. But what I wanted to do for that children, the children chapter is sort of not just say,
00:34:53
Speaker
LGBTQ queer queer queer kids are kicked out of their home by their biological families and ballroom fills that void, right? That's just a sound bite that you don't feel what that is. You don't feel the actual loss of being cut off from who you are, right?
00:35:09
Speaker
and not even just cut off hated. So there's that. I sort of wanted to make it personal. I could have interviewed someone from Ballroom about that specific topic, but what I was also concerned with is that just sort of appropriating folks' stories. Like I didn't want to be like, I didn't want to ask all these personal questions and risk nothing personally.
00:35:29
Speaker
my art criticism often implicates myself and I use first person a lot but what I really wanted to put my story in there to actually finally get rid of that space right here in my head but then also to as a sort of a sacrificial kind of device so that people know I'm serious about the book and it's not just absorbing other people's tales you know.
00:35:50
Speaker
Yeah, and I thought it was what was some of the more touching moments of the book, or when you write about the house mothers and the house fathers, and you wrote within this culture a quintessential act of masculinity, fathering, can be driven by classic femininity, mothers, and black femininity in particular.
00:36:13
Speaker
And I just I love that phrasing and I was hoping that maybe you can just talk about that and expand on that and how important those roles are just in the community, especially for unfortunate kids who get kicked out of their homes and are looking for some degree of structure and family.
00:36:31
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the flip side of the last question, like the flip side of my dad being absent is that ballroom, I got two gay dads out of life and following sort of the ballroom sort of line of thought. And so I got Michael and Robert. And when I interviewed them for the book, Michael Roberson, he went to Union Theological. So he really thinks about ballroom in this theological space, which I sort of put into the book as well. But my first question for him, because he's such
00:36:59
Speaker
a father figure. He's every every every time I interview someone they're like oh my father right uh Michael and I'm like well he's mine and like you know how many kids does he this man have right and so um so he's known for fathering you know and so I asked him directly it wasn't sort of a proposition of my own it was just like and also you could sort of play on the line that like you know if everyone in ballroom is queer than is every sort of father effeminate which isn't really the the his argument his argument is i model
00:37:27
Speaker
my fathering on the phenomenal Black mothering that I've had, right? So, you know, typical to Ballroom, he's sort of exploding sort of these gender binaries, but just also just being honest. And I totally see it. And if you talk to Michael or see any of the presentations that he does, because he goes all around to colleges and
00:37:49
Speaker
New York City doing these sort of lectures. He's only talking about black women the whole time. Trains black women that started ballroom. He's showing eclipse of lip-syncing battles which are like captivating and then he does this whole thing about Janet Jackson as representing black female bodies and
00:38:06
Speaker
So it's always just sort of there. Fortunately, he sort of laid that out for me. Yeah, it's so important to talk to everyone in this book because I think I know and then so I think I know, but then I interview someone and they either confirm it or they give me, they sort of toss up something else, you know, another proposition.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah, and given the way the book is structured and put together, you talk about a certain major topic which then includes kind of this critical deep dive that you take, but you also break out an interview component and then also kind of like a baseball card component of a
Themes in Ballroom Culture Book
00:38:44
Speaker
particular... I called it that. That's great. Nice. Actually, I called it baseball cards at first and I was like, no, they're more like Pokemon cards, but still.
00:38:52
Speaker
That's great. So how did you arrive at that as a way into this book and to tell these stories of Ballroom? I get so bored writing sometimes. And I'm like, if I'm bored, they're going to be bored. So let's just try not to be bored. So what is it? Multimedia, explaining multimedia sort of situations is super helpful for me. And then the interviews were important just from a sort of
00:39:16
Speaker
agency standpoint for the folks that I'm writing on behalf of, they needed to be present. I'm not an anthropologist, and I don't plan to be one anytime soon, so I needed to know how they felt. The Vogue icons, like the interstitials that you're talking about, I'd gotten pretty much to the second to last chapter or something, and I thought to myself, aside from the
00:39:39
Speaker
bits where I do describe being at a ball. Like I describe Kareem and taking, I describe my friend Kareem, the photographer, and then my nieces and nephews taking them to a ball in the Bronx that was Batman themed. Like that was really cool and fun, but, and I described that in a certain social, socio-political context in the book, but I don't, I'm like, where's the fun in here? And I keep, I kept describing it as like a spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down in the book. Like you're going to know,
00:40:07
Speaker
You're going to know about the pitfalls of capitalism and cultural appropriation, but also it's going to be fun. And I was like, am I having enough fun here? So I thought it would be good to just explain the love of watching someone vote. So I cover.
00:40:21
Speaker
Hector Extravaganza, who danced for Madonna back in the Vogue and Blonde Ambition tour days. And then my friend Kia LaBeija, who went to the new school with me and took a couple of classes with me. She was the mother of the House of LaBeija at some point watching. She's a cis woman who slays voguing. And so it's important to know that they exist. And also, she's just incredible.
00:40:43
Speaker
So, Hector, Leomi Maldonado from Legendary, she just talked me about her trajectory, icon Pony Zion, who's a friend and taught me in bogology how to vogue.
00:40:57
Speaker
Who's the fifth one? I can't remember the fifth off the top of my head, but they love me. At the start of the book, you know, you write that, well, once the ink dried on the book contract, Robert Sember, who's one of your one of your gay dads, came to me with two mandates with which I concurred. The first was that the book be unapologetically black, to which I replied, how dare you?
00:41:19
Speaker
and no problem. The second was that it be an indictment of capitalism, a system at the root of American slavery and the only seeable justification for the centuries of marginalization of the LGBTQ BIPOC lives that make up ball culture. You can go on a little bit more, but that seems to be the the crux and the nexus of animating force of the book. So, you know, how at what point did that arrive to you? Like this is this is the this is my trampoline to dive in to this subject.
00:41:49
Speaker
I mean, before, yeah, like you said, sort of before I even, I had written a sample chapter that was the first, that ended up being the first chapter. So really it's just taking, you know, America's Best Dance Crew, Madonna's Vogue, Pose, Paris is Burning, and just sort of talking about what those did culturally for us.
00:42:05
Speaker
And so I had that sort of done, but then that's not a whole book, you know, like it could have been, but it's not. It wasn't going to be this whole book. So I, Robert saying those things was really helpful. They were sort of North stars, you know, like I'm, I'm anti-capitalism anyway, but like generally, I mean, even though I live within the system, but, um, and the black thing is just obvious. But the reason I said, how dare you is because Robert is South African, but a white man. And so like I said, I said, how dare you to his face? I was like, how dare you?
00:42:32
Speaker
You know, but um but the capitalism thing was really a good guiding force because you know, I mean even just sort of googling ideas, while I was doing research, it landed me at bell hooks, who I've met and who was a scholar in residence at the new school for a while so I've seen her speak and she's really cool and but it was, she was helpful in terms of organizing my thoughts.
00:42:56
Speaker
So, um, so yeah, that was a super important moment that, and also it was him giving me permission to write the book. Cause you know, he's not, I mean, he's ballroom and Michael or ballroom. And maybe I am at this point, but I just needed everyone to okay. This everyone that I cared about at least.
00:43:14
Speaker
And you're also right, it's obvious that capitalism is the devil. And if you glean nothing else from this book, please, please know I condemn it and can't wait for the day when together as a conscious society, we finally get a collective clue and dismantle the beast with our own, with our bare fucking hands. And yeah, so dramatic. What is wrong with it? You know, for a book that has very little profanity, it's it's a nice little grace note to have that have that dollop on there.
00:43:44
Speaker
But maybe you can speak to where, at what point did you start to have that conflicting relationship with capitalism? You can even tie it to Madonna invoking an MTV.
00:43:57
Speaker
I mean, always, I mean, I've always had it. I mean, there was a moment when I put this in the book, when my mom and her gay friend Reggie, they're both in New York, but they both ended up in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and they were getting ready to go to the club or something. And like, I was listening, I was sitting in the bathroom with them while they're primping, and Madonna's vote came on. It was a new song, you know? And so they, and then I think Reggie said something to the effect of like,
00:44:19
Speaker
Trix, because he called my mom Trixie. He's like, Trix, do you hear what this this woman is doing? And my mom was like, yes, honey, she thinks she's one of the children. Right. So it's like, you know, and so that disparity between like.
00:44:33
Speaker
what my mom and her friend thought about Madonna and what was like you know it's so so I always knew there was a conflict there but like in high school and all in Boston I hung out with you know sort of non-conventional punk rock kids I lived at Food Not Bombs in Austin when I was 19 and like
00:44:51
Speaker
So, you know, the artists that I've always called friends and family are always had like a, you know, their side eye on the man and capitalism and whatever. And now, you know, as someone who's an academic, I know that it is racism and slavery are America's first sin, but those were all in the name of social hierarchy and monetary gain, right? So everything just points back to it for me
Cultural Appreciation vs. Appropriation
00:45:17
Speaker
at this point. There's no sort of like,
00:45:19
Speaker
Maybe I can pinpoint the age-ish, like around the age that I was when that switch was turned on, but now you can't turn that shit off.
00:45:26
Speaker
And with regarding the Madonna in Vogue there, you ask, when have you crossed the line from appreciation to appropriation? And what a fine line and a fine dance around those ideas. So maybe with you, how have you, when you're posing that question specifically to that, how might someone go about appreciating something without appropriating it?
00:45:55
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, that's a good question. I was doing a podcast earlier this week and someone asked me why I don't walk balls and I gave the example, well, Hey, I'm a writer. Like I don't have to leave me alone. Right. But like, why don't you go? Why, why don't you go walk a ball? Why don't you leave me alone? And, but, um, but, um, now I'm lost by trade. I thought
00:46:17
Speaker
You walk a ball. You walk a ball. What was the question to get? I'm sorry. The idea of towing that line of appreciation versus appropriation and navigating that.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think one of them is one of the rules is just sort of be thoughtful and don't take up a lot of space. I mean, when me, Kareem and the kids went to the Bronx ball, I gave everyone a speech before. I was like, OK, just because we're black and some of us queered. I mean, we can be all up in everyone's face and in their way. Like, let's just be respectful. They all said they knew. And I was like, you don't know. Just be nice.
00:46:56
Speaker
So there's, you know, just be respectful. So I watched this documentary recently, Patricia Field, the costume designer for Sex and the City and a slew of other films and media. She had a house in ball culture in the 90s, the 80s and 90s, called the House of Field.
00:47:15
Speaker
And there's been a documentary that came out about it recently and I went to see it. And the thing about them, that particular house is that they were mostly white, which was rare. It was like downtown folks coming uptown to Harlem balls and stuff. So it was kind of, it's a cool idea, you know? And they did it officially, they were good. There's this moment in the documentary where they have the House of Field ball and all of these celebrities are there because she was connected to like Betsy Johnson and like Mark Jacobs.
00:47:42
Speaker
Mark Jake, there's a category being walked and I cannot remember the category but Mark Jacobs just decided that he was going to walk the category and he just like walks up and he's like I'm doing this and everyone's like
00:47:54
Speaker
sit down, but you're Mark Jacobs, you know, and like, he didn't get the rules. If it was a real ball, they would be like, you are disqualified, you know, ones across the board, right? And when they interviewed him about it afterwards, like maybe like last year for the documentary, you could tell that like, they were the question asks, the person asking the question was more like,
00:48:18
Speaker
what gave you the balls or the gall to do that? And he was sort of just like, I just want to have fun. I just want to join in. I felt inspired. That's where it gets complicated. So that's one example in terms of participation. When it comes to these business ventures, I think the folks
00:48:35
Speaker
lower on the hierarchy of that dynamic need to be asking themselves a lot of questions. And I think the people higher up do too, but I think my interest lies more in what ballroom folks are thinking when they sign a contract. What are your plans? What is the agency you have currently? Will that increase with the next venture due to this one? Are they coming from a place that's respecting you? So it's not a clean,
00:49:02
Speaker
cut sort of thing. And there's always, just like the propositions I make in the book, like it's Madonna was good and bad. Could she have been better? Probably. Could she have been worse? Probably. But it's never going to be like, this was good, this was bad. It's just sort of like, how thoughtful is everybody in this? And that's what Bell Hooks talks about. And I referenced it in the book, just being enlightened witnesses of what is going on, being aware of these transactions and the repercussions of them.
00:49:32
Speaker
And when, you know, the name of the book, of course, is and the category is. So maybe you can, you know, what are some of those in some of those categories as they relate to ballroom?
00:49:44
Speaker
Yeah, so I talk about some of them in the book. A lot of them recovered in Paris is Burning, which is outstanding. And what that movie did was alleviate me of having to explain what ballroom is, which was nice. I can kind of just hit the ground running.
Understanding Ballroom Categories
00:49:56
Speaker
But there's this wonderful monologue that Dorian Corey does, who I love, because Dorian Corey was like a muse, or like a bard. Dorian Corey was like the bard, like every sort of monologue
00:50:08
Speaker
in Paris's Burning is a poem. And like, and she talks about shade and reading in shade. And then she also talks about categories. And it's just all very captivating. What's also funny about her is that when you look at the video of her in Paris's Burning in 1989, I think
00:50:26
Speaker
there was a mummified body in her house at that point. She'd murdered a man who was invading her home. And instead of going to the police because she was a trans drag queen, she was like, I'm not going to jail. They'll throw the book at me. So let me just wrap this in vinyl. I'm sewing anyway. I'll wrap this in vinyl and put it in the trunk and put it away. And they'll find it when I die. And they did. And the New York Magazine did a whole thing about it afterwards. Anyway, and they wrote that in post too.
00:50:55
Speaker
What was my point again? I'm losing my train of thought. Yeah, we were just talking about the categories, you know, what those aren't defining those. She does a whole monologue about categories. So there's realness, which is a category. So usually it's sort of talking about
00:51:11
Speaker
trans women looking the most sort of passable at street level, which has a whole slew of implications that I cover at the book. And some of that is out of necessity. If you read as a man on the street and you, you know, and you're a trans woman, then that can foster violent
00:51:28
Speaker
Um, reaction. So it's sort of this really high stakes thing that becomes sort of a pageant thing in ballroom, um, which is super complex. So realness, but realness branches off outside of gender and into like really weird categories or interesting categories like executive realness. So, um, you know, who is the most convincing executive? So you got your briefcase, you got your tie, you got your jacket, you know, you're, you're, you know,
00:51:51
Speaker
hailing a cab, that kind of thing. Voguing is one. It's probably the most popular one. But there are subcategories of voguing. So there's vogue femme, which is sort of the most prominent category. And then there's butch queen femme. There's all kinds of subdivisions of voguing as well.
00:52:12
Speaker
Um, bizarre Lee soldier, who I interview for the book does a bizarre and really it's just sort of like the craziest outfits you've ever seen in your life. Um, and just like pieces of artwork. Um, he does like bubble themes. Sometimes it's just, it's, it's, it's great. And he's like sort of the Lee Bowery of ballroom, but not as notable, I think, because you know, race dynamics, but he's, he's an icon for sure.
00:52:37
Speaker
And looking on your Instagram, there's an incredible photograph from your friend Kareem here from the Arkham Ball. And this image is gorgeous and just illustrative of the entire event in the scene. Maybe you can just speak to, I think we might be running a little low on time.
00:52:57
Speaker
But we can speak to his artwork here to help illustrate what is such a, you know, vibrantly, such a visible thing to experience. Sort of talking back to those punk rock roots, like Karim, I met him when I was 19. We lived in a horrible house or a beautiful house, but filled with horrible boys, including ourselves and Dorchester, but he documented the whole thing. And so, like, he's been
00:53:25
Speaker
taking pictures of our friends on the scene for like decades. And so when I thought about who I wanted to take pictures, he was top of mind. So he came with me to the Arkham ball. That particular ball was so much fun. And it was just such a good idea for me to bring my niece and nephew who were from Charlotte up to see it because their, I mean, their mouths were one of them, his jaw dropped because
00:53:48
Speaker
of toxic masculinity but I think he'll get over that. Like I think it's one of those things where he was like his mind was blown and he was offended and then I think 20 years from now he'll be like that was really cool he took me there. You know that one was really fun because the everybody was dressed as like poison ivy and like two-face and like the Joker there was like five jokers there and so
00:54:07
Speaker
And it was and then there was someone from the time taking pictures too. So while Kareem was photographing everything, there was like two satellites like around. There's a cool vibe there. And I think he captured it beautifully. Like you really see like the energy. And I think that particular picture you're talking about is like with someone doing a dip and then everyone's hands are kind of down like like sort of like. Yeah. Yeah. You can. It's kinetic. But it's static. Right.
00:54:32
Speaker
Yeah, nice. Well, well, Ricky, the book's incredible. And it definitely took me to a place that I hadn't really even heard about. And that's what some of the best works of nonfiction do is they take us places and and and show us what it is to learn about these incredibly vibrant subcultures. So I just I got to commend you on the book, continued success. And I can't wait to hear what you come up with and read what you come up with next, man. Thanks so much for the work. And of course, carving out the time to talk shop here.
00:55:01
Speaker
Hey, thanks Brendan, and thanks for reading the book. I really appreciate it. Well, how about that?
00:55:14
Speaker
Thanks to Ricky for the time and for Goucher College inviting me to be part of the non-fiction sessions. Also, thanks to West Virginia Wesleyan College's MFA Creative Writing for the sponsorship support. You have a good time. The show is partly made possible by the incredible cohort of members. Growing cohort, mind you, at patreon.com slash cnfbot
00:55:36
Speaker
Building up the patreon coffers grants you access to transcripts the magazine coaching it helps pay for podcast hosting which is not cheap and Keeps the backlog from never expiring and your dollars also go into the pockets of writers So like I said it visit patreon.com slash cnf pod if you want to up your patronage up your support of the show Beyond merely listening to it
00:56:02
Speaker
which is also incredibly awesome. Hey, speaking of listening to the podcast, for the little guy, reviews make the world go round. And if you can spare a moment and head over to Apple Podcasts and leave a kind review of the show, I'll read it on the air. They mean everything to the way we're seeing an effort.
00:56:19
Speaker
I have no name recognition, but if people see more and more reviews, they have to take notice and they might even join our little community. And then they might become patrons. And I can pay writers more and more of that fat burrito money. Everybody wants that. You want the guac. You don't want to skimp on the guac when you go to your favorite burrito joint.
00:56:43
Speaker
I was listening to WTF with Mark Maron as an appointment listening for me. I listened to it every time, every Monday and Thursday. And he's always talking about getting out to the clubs and working out the jokes. And also in an email exchange I have with Chip Scanlon, who's a great writing coach and has a nifty newsletter. He asked me, among other things, how my writing is going.
00:57:09
Speaker
I couldn't even answer the question, nice as he was to ask, because my writing as of yet is like non-existent. I'm a comedian who doesn't go out to the clubs. It's a sad state of affairs, Jerry.
00:57:23
Speaker
Every week I have high hopes of getting back into the swing and then I get bogged down by reading and getting this shit show together. Come the weekend I'm wrung out. On top of that I do all the cooking and then of course I have to exercise and maintain this sexy bud you've come to know.
00:57:43
Speaker
And then so come the weekend they have almost no bandwidth to do anything except watch Bob Ross and Maybe some bake-off or football But also the squid game finish that pretty twisted, right?
00:57:59
Speaker
And then Sunday comes and you start to feel the crush of the oncoming week and all you want to do is sleep when the alarm goes off in the morning and you're like, God damn it, here we go again. Point being, I got to get out into the clubs and feel that energy doing the work. I've been a chicken shit about a phone call I need to make and I
00:58:21
Speaker
Just got to get on that phone, make that cold call, tamp down that anxiety, and it might lead to something promising. Probably not, but it could. Anyway, I can't even say that I'm a writer these days with a straight face anymore, and that makes me kind of sad. But here we are, CNFers. Here we are. Do me one solid. Stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interviews, see ya.
00:59:05
Speaker
you