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Episode 128—David Lee Morgan on Positivity, Trust, and Telling the Story Straight
126 Plays6 years ago
If you’re anything like me, and one assumes you are because you find some value in this humble little podcast, you need constant prodding in a sense. That can either be to get your work done or to get your brain in check. I’m one of those dudes who gets pretty down pretty easily, so it helps to have guests on who inspire me. Enter David Lee Morgan, @davidleemorgan on Twitter. David was a long time sports writer for the Akron Beacon Journal and most recently he turned his attention to teaching high school English, a move he doesn’t regret in the slightest. For the people who say “If you can’t do teach,” one of the more insulting things you can say to any artist who teaches or teachers who don’t, I give you David, who not only is a brilliant writer, but by the very nature of his attitude and approach, makes him that rare teacher that inspires with every lesson. To be frank, I haven’t been in David’s classroom, but if my 90 minutes with him is any indication of what it’s like to sit at a desk in his class, well, sign me up. Oh, hey, this is The Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to the best writers, filmmakers, podcasters, and producers about the art and craft of telling true stories. Here I try and unpack their personal history and also drill down on their routines and habits around getting the work done so you can apply those tools of mastery to your own work. If you haven’t subscribed, be sure to head over to Apple Podcasts, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher and hit that button. Share this episode with just one friend, or across your social platforms, and if you’ve got the time, please leave an honest review over on Apple Podcasts. Okay, so David is the author of six books, including LeBron James: The Rise of a Star, which was the book on LeBron before he became King James. We talk about garnering trust among sources, being positive, and using slights as fuel. I think you’re going to love this episode, now, it’s time for the main event. Thanks to our sponsors in Goucher College’s MFA in NOnfiction as well as Creative Nonfiction Magazine. What else? Oh, yes, be sure to subscribe to the show and be sure to head over to brendanomeara.com to sign up for my monthly newsletter. New one goes on the first of the month. It’s an inventory of great reading material as well as what you might have missed from the world of the podcast. I hope it gives you as much value as it gives me by putting it together. I’m @BrendanOMeara on Twitter and IG. The podcast is @CNFPodHost on Facebook, so connect with me or the show wherever you like. The show is in service of you, so if you have questions of me or my guests, please don’t be shy to email or ping me on social.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
The Creative Nonfiction Podcast is sponsored by Goucher College's Master of Fine Arts in Nonfiction. The Goucher MFA is a two-year, low residency program. Online classes let you learn from anywhere, while on-campus residencies allow you
00:00:15
Speaker
to hone your craft with accomplishmenters who have pulled surprises and best-selling books to their names. The program boasts a nationwide network of students, faculty, and alumni. Which has published 140 books and counting, you'll get opportunities to meet literary agents and learn the ins and outs of the publishing journey.
00:00:38
Speaker
Visit Goucher.edu forward slash nonfiction to start your journey now. Take your writing to the next level and go from hopeful to published in Goucher's MFA program for nonfiction. Well, well, well, light it up.
00:00:57
Speaker
If you're anything like me, one assumes you are because you find some value in this humble little podcast. You need constant prodding, in a sense. That can either be to get your work done or to get your brain in check. I'm one of those dudes who gets pretty down pretty easily. I know, hard to believe.
00:01:20
Speaker
So it helps to have guests on who inspire me.
Introducing David Lee Morgan
00:01:25
Speaker
Enter David Lee Morgan at David Lee Morgan on Twitter. David was a longtime sports writer for the Akron Beacon Journal and most recently he turned his attention to teaching high school English.
00:01:39
Speaker
a move he doesn't regret in the slightest. For the people who say, if you can't do teach, one of the more insulting things you can say to any artist who teaches or teachers who don't, I give you David, who not only is a brilliant writer and author of several books and countless awards for his journalism, but by the very nature of his attitude and approach, makes him that rare teacher that inspires with every lesson.
00:02:05
Speaker
Now to be frank, I haven't been in David's classroom, of course, but in my 90 minutes with him on this show, if that's any indication of what it's like to sit at a desk in his class, well, sign me up and maybe I would have done better on the SAT. Oh hey, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, remember?
Podcast Invitation
00:02:25
Speaker
The show where I speak to the best writers, filmmakers, podcasters, and producers about the art and craft of telling true stories.
00:02:33
Speaker
Here I try and unpack their personal history and drill down on their routines and habits around getting the work done so you can apply those tools of mastery to your own work. Sounds good. Add to cart. If you haven't subscribed, be sure to head over to Apple Podcasts, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher, and hit that button. Share this episode with just one friend. We all have one, some of us.
00:03:01
Speaker
or share it across your social platforms. If you've got the time, please leave an honest review over on Apple Podcasts.
David's Books and Trust in Journalism
00:03:09
Speaker
All right, so David is the author of six books, maybe seven, but I think it's six, including LeBron James, The Rise of a Star, which was the book on LeBron before he became King James.
00:03:26
Speaker
We talk about garnering trust among sources, telling a story straight, being positive, and using slights or insults as fuel. It happened to David, and he's got a great story about how that happened. I think you're going to love this episode, but first,
00:03:45
Speaker
Today's podcast is brought to you by Creative Nonfiction Magazine. For nearly 25 years, Creative Nonfiction has been fuel for nonfiction writers and storytellers, publishing a lively blend of exceptional long and short form nonfiction narratives and interviews, as well as columns that examine the craft, style, trends, and ethics of writing true stories.
00:04:10
Speaker
In short, creative non-fiction is true stories well told. Well, now it's time for the main event.
00:04:28
Speaker
Like I'm looking at my window and leaves for more. It's raining. It's wet. It's cold. It's perfect. It's perfect Northeast Ohio weather, I'm telling you. That's great. As we get kind of started here and our limited interactions on Twitter and just a few phone calls and even some of the stuff I've read about you,
Positive Upbringing
00:04:49
Speaker
You seem like such a happy, energetic, positive person. And I gotta say, in my limited years, 15 or so in sports writing, that doesn't seem to be the case with sports writers. No, I totally agree. You know what? First of all, honestly, I really appreciate that because here's the thing.
00:05:14
Speaker
Like my parents were really laid back. Like my dad was so laid back, just easy going. And my mom, she was a gospel singer, so she was really strict. But my family was really like, kind of like,
00:05:27
Speaker
You know, nothing is, you know, unless it's going to kill you, then don't take anything seriously. Enjoy life. Don't take, you know, don't get so caught up in all of that. So that's how I grew up my whole life. But it's funny you say that because as a, as a reporter, that was one of the things that most people remember me, remember about me was the fact that like he was always positive. He always looked for a positive story. And so that's just how I, that's how I've done everything.
00:05:54
Speaker
everything.
Positive Approach in Journalism and Life
00:05:56
Speaker
And where did that come from? Your mom was pretty strict as a gospel singer. Your dad was laid back. So where did that come from for you? And how did you find value in that, too, just being positive? Yeah, well, here's the thing. Even to this day, I'm 52, and I don't like drama.
00:06:18
Speaker
I don't like drama, but I'm a realist. I mean, I'm realistic. I mean, I don't, I know that, you know, you have to get serious about certain things because as a, as a writer, I mean, you don't write six books and, and not be serious or not be focused on what you have to do. So if I have to be focused on something, obviously I'm going to get the job done. But outside of that, I just always try to look at everything as, you know, Hey, let's have a good time. Let's not have any drama.
00:06:48
Speaker
So lots of times I would always concede certain things. I would always concede, okay, I'll pick up the tab. Who cares? Okay, all right, big deal. Let's just, let's not fight about this. Let's just move on. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Let's move. So I've just, that's how I've been throughout my life. And I know a lot of people always say, my students, this is funny. My students will say, Mr. Morgan, you act like a kid. I'm like, you're damn right. You're damn right. Life is too short.
00:07:16
Speaker
So I'm gonna have fun period, especially on Mondays, first period. The kids are like, they're looking at me with long faces. I'm like, hey, let's go, what's up? Let's go, let's do this. So that's just how I've always been.
00:07:30
Speaker
As reporters, sometimes the image is that you have to be kind of a bully and very bullheaded to get what you want. You have to show a big backbone. And if you're nice and positive, sometimes that can be seen as weakness. How do you use it to your strength in
Building Trust in Journalism
00:07:53
Speaker
your career?
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah. That's that's you hit it on the head because I've seen so many reporters try to bully their way into press, not in the, not into press conference, but during press conferences, you know, to kind of show, Hey, I know what I'm talking about. And then right off the bat, that interaction with that coach or that player is already tainted right from the start. So that, that, that person's not going to trust anything that you're trying to ask and it's going to affect your story. And,
00:08:23
Speaker
So I never tried to be fake or anything like that. But, you know, if, if you can, a lot of the stories that I've written that won awards and I, you know, I like to share a couple things with you, but a lot of the stories that, that won awards, it's because the subject felt comfortable enough to tell me things that they probably wouldn't tell other reporters. And they trusted that I wasn't going to exploit that.
00:08:51
Speaker
and write a good piece that reflected who they were and their emotions and what they felt and that trust, you know, being vulnerable. And, I mean, think about that. I mean, you're talking about high school, college kids or even, you know, professional athletes who, in that small amount of time that you have to talk to, whether it's after a game, but especially in a feature story,
00:09:16
Speaker
they're being vulnerable. They're saying, okay, I'm going to tell you things that I normally wouldn't tell anybody because I trust that you're going to write this piece in a positive way. That's not going to exploit all the things that I've told you. And so that's what I've always tried to do. And it's not, it's not something where I've tried to like, um, fake them out or be somebody I'm not. It's just, that was part of the reporting.
00:09:45
Speaker
That was part of, and if you're consistent, if that's who you are, then it's easy to do that. And it's easy for people to see. Like you saw that and we've talked, you know, occasionally on the phone, on Twitter, on social media, but you already saw that. So it was, so I'm not fabricating that. So I'm able to extract great stories from people because they trust me. They genuinely trust me.
00:10:09
Speaker
When I was talking to Eli Sazlow about this, about trust and talking to people, being with them for a long time to write these very long, beautiful features, he often feels the weight of the responsibility of that trust in a lot of these people that he's writing about.
00:10:28
Speaker
This might be the only time they are ever written about so in a sense He kind of has the last word on their story and how their story is read by a big audience and oh And yeah, is that something you felt too?
Importance of Positive Stories
00:10:42
Speaker
Oh Eli he hit it on the head. I mean With high school with now being an african-american former student-athlete. Okay, I was blessed, you know, my my parents went to college and so I
00:10:57
Speaker
I was blessed to understand you got to do things right. But for a lot of the kids that I covered, that story that I write or wrote will probably be the only thing that was ever written positive about them in their lives. And especially for young Black kids who played an inner-city Akron or Cleveland,
00:11:22
Speaker
who would never get anything written about them in the paper. So I took that responsibility. I, you know, I made sure that I didn't, you know, I didn't take that lightly. And so if, if there was a great game or something that they did that was positive, because here's the thing, Brendan, you know, and especially here in Northeast Ohio, we're sports and high school sports and college sports and not necessarily professional sports, but for those lower levels,
00:11:51
Speaker
You could walk into a neighborhood restaurant, Italian restaurant, Greek restaurant, and if you did a piece on that owner's son or grandson or niece or nephew, it's up on that wall, tattered, yellow, faded. It's got spaghetti sauce on the plastic, but it's been there for 15 years, and it meant something to that family. And so every time I wrote a high school piece, I made sure
00:12:25
Speaker
Uh-huh, yeah.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, I would do that too. I primarily covered high school sports. When you come out of college or something, you think, oh yeah, you gotta throw in the facts, you gotta put the name down. But then you realize, these are just kids. Just say the team fumbled and then maybe somewhere in the story, a very anonymous right guard throws a great block.
00:12:59
Speaker
put his name in. Good call. Good call. Absolutely. Yeah. And they love that. You know, it's just some obscure thing that, that maybe great block down Phil. He's thinking, okay, I got my job done because this is all I'm supposed to do. But then he opens that, you know, that, that, that mom opens the paper says, Johnny, Oh my goodness. Look, you're the paper. Oh, that's great.
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, is that something too when you guys you grew up in an athlete too Did you were you able to find you'd kind of look at look at a news story in that ends? Look for your initials to see if you got mentioned in the story like before you read the thing You know what? No, I honestly know because you know, I graduated in 1984 So, you know, we really it was different. I mean like we really I
00:13:47
Speaker
We'd open up the paper, and if our picture was there, that was cool. And then it was just no big deal. I mean, I don't know. I'm not trying to sound like I'm so old. But as we've moved forward into this age of digital and social and me, me, me, me, me, it didn't seem like we had that then. So we really didn't care if we were in the paper or not. Did we win?
00:14:17
Speaker
And if we won, that was good. We couldn't wait to go to practice the next day and kind of build on that. But no, I didn't really think about it back then.
Celebrating Perseverance in Sports Writing
00:14:30
Speaker
But I wanted to mention this too. I want to go back to this. We were talking about the positive stories that kids can't wait to read. One of my books, it's called High School Heroes, Stories of Inspiration, Dedication, and Hope.
00:14:46
Speaker
And one day I was, you know, while I was at the Akron Beacon Journal, I thought, you know, I've written all these positive stories that won awards about kids persevering. So one day I was in the office and I said, you know what, let me go through the archives and find all of the stories that won awards and put those together and make it a book just on those stories. And that's what we did. So we just grabbed all of those stories that won awards.
00:15:14
Speaker
and put them together, and it was really a big hit here. And, you know, other areas, you know, it wasn't a bestseller across the country, but around Northeast Ohio and people who were in the book, it was a very positive book. Oh, that's great. Yeah.
00:15:30
Speaker
When you were growing up in Northeast Ohio, what was your childhood like, and where did the writer in you originate from out of your childhood? Yeah, that's a good question. Like I said before, my mom was a gospel singer, and she sang with this group called the Caravans. And they are well-known in gospel music. And she plays piano.
00:16:00
Speaker
And she was a soprano. And my dad went to Miami of Ohio, very smart. He went to the Army. So I think I had that kind of artistic kind of talent in me, but I never thought I'd be a writer. As a matter of fact, in college, I was a criminal justice major.
00:16:20
Speaker
Okay. Uh, and then I changed majors, but I think I got that writing. I think I had that writing ability, but just never knew it. I love sports. My dad played at Miami of Ohio. Uh, he played baseball and then when he went to the army, he played baseball in the army and I played football, basketball and baseball in high school. And then I played baseball at Youngstown state. I went to Warren G. Harding. So that's where like Paul Warfield when he's in the NFL hall of fame, wide receiver, uh,
00:16:49
Speaker
Maurice Claret, I don't know if you remember, you don't know that name. Okay, Maurice Claret, I'm trying to think, Mario Manningham, who played for Michigan and then the New York Giants. Yeah, as a Patriots fan, David Tyree and Mario Manningham are bad names in my brain. Yeah, you know it, yep. And Corey Stringer, I don't know if you remember him, he died, he played for the Minnesota Vikings. That's right. And died of heat stroke.
00:17:16
Speaker
So that area is just a big area for high school sports and everything. So that's, I mean, maybe that's where it was, but I never thought I'd be a writer. I tell my students now, I never thought in a million years I'd be an English major and write six books. I never, never, never in a million years thought that.
00:17:37
Speaker
So how did you then get on that path to, and where might have been that first bit of validation for you, where you're like, oh, I do have a knack for this, and yeah, maybe I can make a go of this?
Realizing a Passion for Writing
00:17:50
Speaker
This is what happened. This is kind of an interesting story. So when I was at YSU, I was a marginal student. Matter of fact, I was a Prop 48 player, which means I had to sit out my first year at Youngstown State because my grades were so bad. So yeah, oh yeah.
00:18:07
Speaker
So I remember, you know, when you're an athlete in college, you can't work and we were broke. So we would go downtown and give plasma. Yeah. So, so, but for me, and you'd get that $35 and in the eighties, $35 was a lot of money when you, yeah, when you lived in a house with seven people and your rent was like $25 each.
00:18:32
Speaker
Yeah, a month. So I'm like, I'm loaded. So that became my job. Giving plasma. I would go downtown like three days a week. And I remember
00:18:48
Speaker
I would come back to class and I'd fall asleep. And this one girl next to me, she said, why are you always tired? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. I get sleep and I give plasma three days a week. She said, you jackass. That's why. Yeah. So I kind of just, I just kind of wandered around. But then, um, what happened was I was on academic probation. So I had to, um,
00:19:16
Speaker
I had to get a job and I had to leave school for a semester. So as I was leaving the plasma place downtown, I passed the Youngstown Vindicator newspaper and people were throwing newspapers onto the orange trucks. It was an afternoon paper. So I said, you know what? I could do that. So
00:19:41
Speaker
I'm like, I'll work there. So I went into a personnel, I went into the front desk and there were two ladies sitting there. And I said, I'd like to apply for a job thinking, throwing newspapers on the truck. And the one lady looked at the other lady, I'll never forget this. They both looked at each other, looked at me and said, as a writer, and they started laughing. They started laughing. And I, at that moment,
00:20:11
Speaker
I realized, wow, they don't know me from Adam. Right. And that was the response. So I walked up the hill from downtown, walked back up to campus and I went to my advisor and I said, I want to change my major to English. And they said, David, you can't do that. You're halfway through the quarter. We were on quarters. We're halfway through the quarter. And my counselor, my guidance, my advisor actually last a little bit too.
00:20:42
Speaker
And I said, no, I'm serious. So he said, well, if that's the case, then you have to fill out a lot of paper. You have to do this, do this, do this, but you have to finish out this quarter. The rest of that quarter, in my mind, I sat in classes as a criminal justice major, but I was not a criminal justice major. In my mind, I was an English major. I couldn't wait till that quarter was over. Wow. And I went to, I never forget, I went to DiBartolo Hall. It's named after the DiBartolo family who owns the 49ers.
00:21:11
Speaker
And that was where the liberal arts college was. And I went to DeBartlow Hall that next quarter and did everything I needed to do to switch majors. It sent me back. I had a lot more work to do, but then that's when the grind started. And I became a professional writing and editing major with a minor in journalism.
00:21:35
Speaker
That's amazing that that moment is so crystallized, like, you know, those two women laughing at you, and that set you on this path. That's such a you coming from an athletic background, too, that that's the corkboard material that fires up a team. Oh, yeah. And I'll never forget. I'll never forget it, Brandon. I'll never forget it. And I remember those last four or five weeks I had to wait. And like I said before, I wasn't I was it wasn't that I wasn't smart.
00:22:05
Speaker
I had the capacity to be a 3.5 student, but I was like Will Smith in the French Prince of Bel Air before that. I wanted to charm people and have fun because like I told you before, that was my personality. I was just a positive, fun, happy-go-lucky kind of guy.
00:22:30
Speaker
When it was time for me, when I was challenged, when my intellect was challenged, I said, you know what? I don't want to shoot a gun. I don't want to be a detective anymore. I don't want to be Mannix. You know, I don't want to be, you know, the detective shows that I watched in the 70s anymore. I want to be a writer. I want to be Oscar Madison.
00:22:52
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. I want to be, I want to be that guy. I want to, I want to chomp on a cigar and I want to wear my hat backwards and I want to write something and pull it out of the typewriter and have somebody run it down. And that's what I want to do.
Journey to Sports Writing
00:23:07
Speaker
And that's how it started. And so, um, I had to sit out that like I had to sit out a semester or a quarter. So that quarter I worked at Cedar Point. It's an amusement park. It's like one of the world's greatest amusement park.
00:23:22
Speaker
in Sandusky, Ohio, and Lake Erie. I worked there for summer. And then when I came back to Youngstown State, I was an English major. And the first thing I did was go to the jam bar, which is the school newspaper. And I said, I want to be a sports writer for the jam bar. And that's what I did. And not only that,
00:23:46
Speaker
newspaper that my hometown newspaper, you know, I'm from Warren, Ohio. So, Warren is only about maybe 10, 15 minutes from Youngstown. So, I went to the Warren Tribune Chronicle, and I said, hey, I'd like to be a correspondent. I'm a student at YSU. I'm a writer. I work for the school newspaper. And they said, hey, you know what? We know you. We remember you as an athlete. Why don't you cover Youngstown state athletics for us as a correspondent?
00:24:11
Speaker
I love that when the fire got lit under you and you found something that really resonated with your taste and then it's like you were just off and running at that point. When you started on that path and you started reading more critically and it's probably starting to read other sports writers that
00:24:38
Speaker
that inspired you like who were some of those writers and maybe who were what were some stories you were reading or even books you were reading they're like oh man like this is this is the stuff and if I work hard enough maybe I can aspire to this. Well you know there was one writer that I always read and his name is Terry Pluto and
00:25:02
Speaker
he is he was he was and still is he works for the Cleveland playing dealer but he was the sports guy in in in in Northeast Ohio in Ohio but he was well known across the country because at the time the Akron Beacon Journal
00:25:24
Speaker
It's a midsize paper. I think when I was there, it was like the circulation was maybe 150,000, maybe 210, 220 on Sunday. So it was big. So I read Terry Pluto, you know, every day and and Akron
00:25:42
Speaker
you know, Akron was only maybe 45 minutes from Youngstown. So I read Terry Pluto every single day. And he was, you know, he was just, he was the voice and, and you know, the Akron Beacon Journal, they had won a Pulitzer Prize. So it wasn't like they were a small paper. People knew who the Akron Beacon Journal was, you know, across the country. And so I read him, but I would read a lot of like, I liked Mike Royko and, and, and, and, you know, Mike Lupica. The thing is, you know, my dad was kind of,
00:26:12
Speaker
intellectual guys. So I didn't always read sports. I read, I read, you know, I read op-eds and, you know, I would read politics, you know, I would read George Will because, you know, those were syndicated columns. So I would just, you know, and they would be in the local paper. So I read everything. Um, uh, but I love sports. I would always, you know, read sports, but Terry Pluto was, was one of the, he was the main guy that I would always read because he was the voice of Ohio sports.
00:26:42
Speaker
right and when you were starting out too as getting your feet wet as a young writer what did you struggle with at the time and then slowly you know strengthen and build up to eventually become the writer that you would become as into your mid and late 20s and into your 30s well you know it's funny i look back at some of the things that i wrote then
00:27:06
Speaker
You may have experienced this, too. I thought I was clever. I thought I had the greatest cliche and the greatest little one-liner. You know, they produce more turnovers than Dolly Madison. You know, those corny, corny, corny, corny, corny. Let the chips fall where they may, those. You know, and I thought I invented those.
00:27:27
Speaker
You know, and then, you know, as you read others, as you read veteran writers, you realize you don't need any of that. You don't need any of that. If you do your homework and you do, you know, you're prepared and you're confident, you'll be able to find those stories. And as I got better, you know, one of the things also I hustled, I hustled my
00:27:57
Speaker
but off. I mean, I was a hustler. Um, if the school newspaper, you know, at the time, um, Jim Trestle, you know, he was the head coach at Ohio state when they won the national championship in 2000 with Maurice Claret. Um, he was, he was the head coach when we were at Youngstown state. So he was there 15 years and then he went straight from there to Ohio state. So I covered
00:28:24
Speaker
all of those years he was there. So I hustled. If they were playing, if they were playing the national championship in Statesboro, Georgia, they didn't pay me, but I knew, Hey, this was opportunity to cover a national championship. So I would call, get a credential and I would find a way to drive down to Statesboro, Georgia. Wow.
00:28:49
Speaker
And at the end of the day, I had a byline in Statesboro, Georgia, covering the Division I AA National Championship.
Commitment to Journalism
00:28:56
Speaker
And Youngstown State played in six and won four. So as a 22, 23, 24-year-old, I covered six national championships. Wow. Yeah. Based solely on your rigor and tenacity to do it, because no one was telling you to do it. No. You had to do it.
00:29:18
Speaker
No, right. And you know, because if, if, if I, if I didn't go there, obviously they weren't going to send me there because, you know, it's a school newspaper. They would just use the wire or they would use the Youngstown Vindicator because the Vindicator had their own, you know, reporter, but working for the, the Tribune, they said, Hey, you know what? You're a student. If you go down there, yes, we'll use your story. You're a correspondent because they were just going to use the wire story.
00:29:47
Speaker
A big thing that I wrestle with, especially in rewriting drafts of long features, is I have a tendency, like you were saying, to be sometimes a little too clever, try to come up with some snappy one-liner that I think is funny, or things get overwritten. So in my later drafts, I always have to, I go through and be like, okay, turn the volume down, turn the volume down. Let the story tell the story.
00:30:13
Speaker
And you know what I mean? In a video that I saw of you when you were doing some book signings, right at the top you were like, send something to the effect of, you don't need fluff, just tell the story in as straightforward a way as possible. I love that you said that. How did you eventually arrive at that? That is a really hard place, I think, for a writer, especially a young writer who wants their voice to be king.
00:30:41
Speaker
Yeah, how did you settle into that confident pocket of just letting the story do the work?
Interview Techniques and Uncovering Stories
00:30:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's great that I know exactly what you're talking about, what video that was.
00:30:53
Speaker
Barnes and Noble book signing, and someone asked, how did you come up with these stories? And the thing was, I learned, see, this is what I tried to do. I tried to, because of my experience, you know, I'm 52, and I've done a lot of things in my life, you know, from being a criminal justice major to working in haunted houses to working in amusement parks, just everything. So I realized that, okay,
00:31:16
Speaker
ask questions, but let, let people talk because what's going to happen is as they continue to talk and become more comfortable, it's almost like that onion, you know, you're going to peel away those layers, those layers, those layers, those layers. And then finally, you're not going to use any of that. You, you probably won't even use anything, but then you're going to get down to that pearl, that nugget where you say, okay. Oh my goodness. That 45 minutes meant nothing because that's the story right here.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah. And, and then, and then you just, you set that up, you kind of introduce it and I'll give you a perfect example. So there's this one kid, um, I was covered in a high school game, these, uh, these two rivals, parochial rivals and this young black kid and he was a running back and it was a rivalry game, but it was early in the season. Cause you know, most of the times those rivalries games are at the end. So it was a beautiful sunny fall evening. It was perfect. So,
00:32:15
Speaker
maybe third game of the season. So this kid rushes for like four or five touchdowns, rushes for almost 300 yards and everybody's excited. You know, they get to, they get the bell, you know, or whatever it was. I think it was the bell. Um, and, and afterwards, so they're all happy and he's, he's emotional and all the reporters are around and they're happy for him. And then he's just, he's emotional. And, and so then the reporters walk away from him and they go try to find the quarterback and other, but
00:32:45
Speaker
I saw something else. I'm like, okay, it's week three and he's crying way too much for this just to be a game that he's happy that they won this rivalry game. There's seven more games left. So I kind of waited until he kind of moved away before he went to talk to his family, but far enough away from the other reporters. I said, Hey, let me ask you a quick question. I said, Hey,
00:33:12
Speaker
I said, I said, you're kind of emotional. I mean, like, like, did this game really mean that much to you? And he said, man, he said, man, you don't know. He said, man, you know, my grandmother was sick and, and she's been in a hospital and I went to see her Wednesday and, and it was right before she died. And she had this necklace on the table and she gave it to me and she died the next day. And he said, man,
00:33:40
Speaker
I had her necklace on my chest. And then every time I carried the ball, I could feel her heart beating against my heart. And then I just, man, I ran for her. Damn, that is, that is amazing. And that was my story. Yeah. And you had, you had it. No one else had that too. And nobody had that story. No one, nobody had that story. And
00:34:09
Speaker
And it goes back to what you were saying. Let them tell the story. Let them find the story that maybe they didn't even know was the story. Because as writers, Brendan, you and I know what the story is. That's the story. Yeah. The rivalry, okay, you could easily write in that story. You could easily write that they won that rivalry game. But his grandmother's heart beating with him helped them win that rivalry game.
00:34:40
Speaker
And I bet the other writers and reporters just assumed he was emotional because it was the rivalry game. But you were able to take a step back and process, be like, nah, there's probably something more going on here. But let's get away from the huddle and then just ask one more question. And then you undoubtedly have the story with a capital S versus that.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, precisely. And you know, that part part of that goes back to like your experience, you know, as a as an athlete, former athlete, and just knowing something, you know, something that's kind of like that intangible something that you could just sense there's something there. That's that, you know, and if you just ask that question, because you know what, if I would have walked away,
00:35:31
Speaker
I would have had the same story that everybody had, that the Cleveland plane dealer had and all the other smaller newspapers, I would have had that same story. John Smith rushes for four touchdowns and 250 yards as Akron and Hoban defeated Walsh Jesuit, whatever, whatever. It would have been the same story. Yeah. Yeah. But it wasn't, you know. That's just being able to look at that and
00:36:00
Speaker
kind of know something else is there.
00:36:22
Speaker
Yeah, in that preview video, I remember him talking about interviewing and when he's interviewing someone, usually a very high person in power, and they're talking, oftentimes he'll press his fingers up against each other to get him to shut up.
00:36:39
Speaker
And just so there'll be a silence and oftentimes people will feel that silencing but you have to be willing to be uncomfortable within that three to five seconds of nothing happening and usually they'll fill it in with the meat of the story. Is that something that you've maybe not like pressing your finger against one another to get you to shut up but have you, have you learned, when did you learn that maybe the silence is when the story really surfaces?
00:37:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point because I before I knew what that was all about.
Unique Story Angles
00:37:14
Speaker
You can even see it now when you watch 60 minutes or anything on like CBS this morning, like on Sunday, Sunday morning, you know, with Jane Pauli, you'll see that the interviewer will spot stop. And you're in you're uncomfortable. You're like, that person's not gonna say anything. And then they then they keep going. Yeah.
00:37:36
Speaker
And you're like, wow, that was a brilliant tactic to use because you want to be silent and let them speak a little bit more. Even though it's uncomfortable for three or four or five seconds, they feel that uncomfortableness as well. So they want to feel that. And I think that's a great point. And I, sometimes I wouldn't be silent. I would just let them talk. I wouldn't talk over them, but I would let them continue until it
00:38:06
Speaker
ran into something else that I needed or wanted. Because if they kept rambling on like I am, but if they kept rambling on about something, that wouldn't matter to me. That wouldn't matter because I know they're gonna reel themselves back into what I'm looking for.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes keeping them on the rails is a good thing, but yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, not talking over people. Oftentimes it's hard for people to do that because you want to prove yourself to them that you've done your homework and that you're smart, but sometimes you just got to sit back and be willing to look stupid in the short term so you can write the best story.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know who does that? I love them. I love them. And oh my goodness, there's no way I'm disparaging. But Chris Matthews, sometimes I want him to let some of the guests answer so that, you know, because I want to hear that answer and then he'll mention something else. And then they answer that question when they were trying to answer the initial question. But I know exactly what you mean.
00:39:18
Speaker
so often, and I find this in, especially in interview podcasts all the time, and I'm guilty of it too, I try not to, because I notice it in myself, but oftentimes someone, they will ask a question, but then they backfill that question with another minute of talking, and it'll just be like, what was it like for you in the middle of the writing process? Because when I start writing a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
00:39:46
Speaker
instead of just ending the question and going. You know what I mean? Like, do you catch that? Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah, I know what you mean. You know, I think I may have done that early in my career. Yeah. Maybe it's just a way to let the person you're interviewing know that you're kind of on their side or, you know, you're setting it up to say, hey, I want you to answer this question, but I've been there
00:40:16
Speaker
too. So, you know, but, you know, I don't know. I mean, looking back, I'm sure I did that a lot. I'm sure I did it later in my career. But sometimes, if I'm writing a feature store, I kind of know what I'm looking for. And if I don't, I will, you know, I am looking for that just let's just talk, let's just talk until I find out, you know, what
00:40:41
Speaker
what is different or what is unique. Like I'll give you another example of a story I did that was in my one book and just kind of like having one idea of what a story will be and then it's completely something different. There was a girl, a young girl, a white girl, I think she was a senior, she was a tennis player and she had qualified for state. And the high school she went to was kind of like it's mixed, mostly white, but it was in the nice side of Akron.
00:41:10
Speaker
but they didn't have tennis courts there. So the tennis courts were in the hood. Actually, I mean, they were in the projects and they were built to kind of introduce tennis to the black community, but nobody played it. So I go there and the story was just to be about her qualifying for state.
00:41:33
Speaker
So I pull in this area. It's, you know, cars are on cinder blocks and the project windows are busted out of certain. So after I talked to her, the story was going nowhere. She didn't want to talk. It was horrible. It was a horrible story. So I thought, OK, we had a photographer there. I'm like, this is going to be a horrible story. So the photographer leaves. He kind of gives me a wink like, OK, this was just this was average. So.
00:41:59
Speaker
So it's getting dark now. And I'm like, hey, so do you need a ride back to the school or something? And she said, no, I'm going to walk home. I said, where do you live? And she pointed in one of these houses that looked like it was about to fall down if the wind blew. And I said, that's the story here. This white girl is in this in the hood wearing this Nike gear, you know, with a hundred dollar racket.
00:42:28
Speaker
you know, and she's in the hood playing tennis. I said, wait a minute, you live right there? And she said, yeah, yeah, I live right there. I said, I said, when did you start playing tennis? Well, they used to teach us here. And so that was the whole story because everybody in the neighborhood already knew she was a tennis player.
00:42:48
Speaker
and they knew she was qualifying for state. So there was this black lady saying, hey baby, we hope you make it to state this year. We hope you win it this year. And it was incredible that this white girl was in the hood playing tennis and everybody in the neighborhood knew who she was.
00:43:05
Speaker
And it was a predominantly black neighborhood. Yeah, that's amazing. It's another testament to your to your your patience as as a reporter and a writer to kind of not not necessarily close off the notebook by like just taking that extra beat asking her if she needed a ride home and all of a sudden it's it's just like it's just like the kid who had the big game after his grandmother died was just waiting a little extra that extra minute or 10 minutes just being patient because
00:43:35
Speaker
Let the story will unfold when it when it wants to but like if you had just kind of closed off and said this is an average story and you're gone You you would have missed that again. It's like just being patient is what kind of what I'm getting at. Yeah Yeah, that almost happened to I mean the photographer matter of fact I called him back and I said hey, can you come back down? I think this is a great story and what we did was we instead of taking a picture of her like just that the regular You know kind of forehand and back in we had her stand against the fence
00:44:05
Speaker
with the projects in the background. And it was a great shot. So yeah, he came back down and after he took that picture, he said, yeah, this is a way better story. But you just learn, you know, that's just experience, you know, of just knowing that's not good or that's going to be crap and I don't want that to go tomorrow. Yeah.
00:44:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I can't tell you how many stories I've written like, you know, whatever. Hopefully it's just it's good enough. But it's I don't think it's good. Hey, let me ask you, are you from are you from the West Coast? I'm actually from East Coast. I grew up in Massachusetts.
00:44:44
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah. Where? You know, we're in New Bedford and Taunton, Fall River are outside Cape Cod. Oh, okay. No, but I mean, you said Cape Cod. I'm like, Oh, okay. Just off Cape is where I grew up. So about an hour south of Boston. Gotcha. Okay. I was just curious.
00:45:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So Red Sox winning the series was a thrill, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't believe several years back when the Indians were up three to one, I don't know what would happen with that. Oh, yeah. That was bad. That was bad. Those early 2000s series when Cleveland and Boston played were where those were slugfest. You know, Bartolt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I covered those. Nomar was the biggest
00:45:37
Speaker
Jerk ever. Really? Oh, Nomar was bad. We'd go into the clubhouse, right? Yeah. And, you know, they'd have their spread. They'd be eating and he'd come in like, look at those, look at those, look at those idiots over there, you know, because we were, you know, standing kind of around lockers to kind of wait for guys to come over. And he was just always, there was just always these, these little shots at the media all the time. Oh, no.
00:46:06
Speaker
No more was my guy like growing up because that was a short stop and There's no I have no He wasn't ever mean or nasty to me. Maybe that was just a bad day for him. But you know, it's just I
00:46:26
Speaker
The print media, he didn't really treat them. Now, I would say maybe the hometown, like Don, what's this, Chauncey? Chauncey, Bob Ryan. Yeah, Bob Ryan, and there was another guy, Gordon, Gordon. Edith. Yeah, Gordon Edith. Yeah, yeah, Gordon Edith, yeah. Like, I knew all those guys because I covered the series and I always had to cover the opposing, the Indians opposing clubhouse. So I was always in the Red Sox clubhouse.
00:46:55
Speaker
Yep. Yeah, it could be just the Boston media is brutal. So it could be that he was just crushed by that. Maybe. But I don't want your dreams to be crazy, because you probably still have that poster of him. Yeah. Seriously, making those great backhanded plays and then slinging the ball across his body to first base. Oh, he was nasty. Yeah. He was good. He was a good player. I loved watching him.
00:47:25
Speaker
Earlier in our conversation, you were talking a lot about trust, and that was something I wrote down in my notebook, too. Trust is such a – if you're going to be able to engender a certain amount of confidence with the people you're going to be writing about. It's especially true when LeBron James was coming up, and you saw him and covered him from when he was
00:47:51
Speaker
when he was a freshman with a lot of potential in high school. And you wrote the book on him before he even turned pro, or as he was turning pro, but you were gathering string for that story. So speaking to trust, how did you, when the media was really starting to be like, oh, he's going to be the next one, how did you get the trust of him, but also his mother, so you could tell that story and write that book?
00:48:19
Speaker
Yeah,
Building Trust with LeBron's Family
00:48:20
Speaker
yeah. Well, actually, that trust started before his freshman year, which actually allowed me to be able to write the book because I got to know LeBron about his when they were in sixth grade because they played AAU together. It was LeBron, Willie,
00:48:37
Speaker
Willie, Willie McGee, who is that? He is now the St. Vincent, St. Vincent athletic director. So it was Willie LeBron, Sheon Cotton, and Drew Joyce, which was the coach's son. So they all played AAU together in sixth grade. So they would travel, they would win in, you know, in the tri-state area.
00:49:00
Speaker
Ohio, West Virginia, Pennsylvania. And they would always qualify to go down to Orlando. So every time during the summer, they would come back and coach Drew would say, Hey, David, can you put, can you put this in the paper? You know, we finished seventh or we finished fourth. I was like, yeah, drew, I'll put a bourbon. So their eighth grade year, they made it to the, uh, the national championship, uh, against the team from, um, um, Southern California. And, um, they lost.
00:49:30
Speaker
Uh, but that was their eighth grade year and they decided they were like, we don't want to split up. We don't, we want to go to high school together. So they all decided to go to St. Vincent St. Mary to try to win a national championship again. So I met them back around six grades. So that's kind of slowly how that trust started to build. And then, um, so as, as they transitioned into high school, they won the state championship their freshman year.
00:49:58
Speaker
They won their sophomore year. They lost their junior year. But that's when everything started to come together, because his junior year, LeBron was on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And from that moment on, I think it was February, and Grant Wall wrote that story. And from that moment, that day, there were live trucks, like from the Cleveland TV stations and I think other places.
00:50:23
Speaker
And there were grown men lined up outside the school with stacks of Sports Illustrateds. And that's when I realized this is surreal. I've never seen anything like this. And I thought, I should chronicle this. Somebody has to chronicle this. So that's how it started. But I did have to go to
00:50:45
Speaker
Um, I didn't go to LeBron. I went to his mom, Gloria, and I said, Hey, glow. I'd love to write a book about all of this. And she said, let me talk to Bron and let me see. And about two weeks later, she said, okay, bronze. Okay. We're going to let you do it. What do you need? And I said, Oh my God. I said, Gloria, I need, I need, you know, I need names of your superintendent of, of, um, places you lived in, you know, apartments projects. I need aunts, uncles, cousins.
00:51:14
Speaker
So about two weeks later, after that, I went to her projects Spring Hill and she gave me, and I just pulled up, she came down and she gave me a notepad, a yellow notepad with like dozens and dozens of names and numbers. And I just started calling people.
00:51:35
Speaker
that's made that what a what a resource there that that she was able to give you though because that that is that's what it's about just going through that list making those calls checking a story against another you know what else do you remember who else would know something from this and just building a picture yeah that that's what it was and then and then with that you know so you know having all of that kind of personal information from ants
00:52:01
Speaker
uncles, like LeBron's uncles, Gloria's brothers, people who coach LeBron, former teachers in sixth, seventh, eighth grade, all of those people, people that he played against, NBA players that I was able to interview who knew LeBron and saw him play. I was able to get all of that. And so during his junior and senior year, those were the two years where I kind of
00:52:29
Speaker
put the book together, you know, because I was still following him. Yeah, I was still cover. I was still covering them. So it gave me some it gave me that window of two years to put it together because we were going to release it like weeks. It came out like four or five days before
00:52:48
Speaker
that the season opener, his rookie season at Sacramento. When you were working on that book, and of course you're still at the newspaper, how did you set up your days so you could effectively work on the book, but probably also be out covering the games you had to cover?
00:53:13
Speaker
Oh my goodness. You led right into this. This is incredible. I mean, think about this. That year, LeBron's senior year, I was the beat writer for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Now, just hear me out. I was the beat writer for the Cavaliers. The Cavs were so bad that they said, David, we're not going to have you go on the road.
00:53:43
Speaker
just cover the home games, but you're gonna follow St. V and LeBron everywhere they go. So, I am covering an NBA team at home, but traveling with St. Vets and St. Mary. How do you think about that? And that senior year, they played at the Palestra in Philadelphia.
00:54:07
Speaker
They played in Trenton, New Jersey at Sovereign Bank Arena when they played against Oak Hill and they played against Oak Hill. That was they played against Oak Hill and it was a Carmelo. I can't remember if it was that year. They played his senior year. They played at the Greensboro Coliseum. And they played they played the team that they lost to in eighth grade in Orlando.
00:54:36
Speaker
They played against them at Polly Pavilion. It was modern day. The same guys that they lost to in eighth grade in Orlando, they played them at UCLA. And I remember they had the press conference. It was called the, I forget the pangas. It was a basketball tournament. They were like 10 teams, but they were the featured team on ESPN too.
00:55:02
Speaker
And I remember they had the press conference at Lowry Steakhouse in Beverly Hills. Um, I think it's where they have the, um, big 10, the big 10, um, press conference or something like that. But, um, and, and that's what I did. I covered LeBron. So that's how, that's how tough it was, or that's how kind of unique it was that they pulled me off of the Cavs beat on the road to cover LeBron and St V. Wow.
00:55:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like what Brian Winhorse ended up doing, basically, for he's shadowed LeBron his entire career. I'm sure he's someone you know probably a lot from. Let me tell you, Brian, Brian worked at the beacon. We call him Scoop. I know Brian well. Brian used to be a hancher for us while I was covering. Brian, Brian used to answer the phones and just take our scores. So I would call in. I'm like, hey, Scoop, I just sent in my story from so and so. He's like, oh, yep, it's here. If we have any questions, we'll call you.
00:56:04
Speaker
that's Brian was a that's what Brian did and then Brian when he grabbed he went to Kent State so when he graduated then he covered preps for us and then he covered Kent State because that's where he went he covered the Mac and then and I think I'm trying to think if he took over after
00:56:22
Speaker
I didn't want to cover LeBron anymore. And I think Brian took over. I can't remember because after LeBron, after his senior year and he got drafted by the Cavs, I didn't want to cover him anymore. And I think Brian took over. But before Brian, we had Chris Broussard. I don't know if you know Chris Broussard. Yeah, definitely. I'm familiar with his work. Yep. Yeah, from ESPN. So Chris, Chris, Chris covered the Cavs before I did.
00:56:50
Speaker
And then Chris Thomasin covered them who went, he ended up going to Denver to post to cover the Denver Nuggets. And then I took over and I think George Thomas or Brian took over. I can't remember, but yeah, he was there when we were all there.
00:57:07
Speaker
It looks like you were, at a certain point, certainly poised to make that leap to the national coverage, whether it's for ESPN or the big magazines, because you were covering your big primetime stuff and especially the LeBron experience and Trestle and everything.
00:57:26
Speaker
What part of you, did you ever wrestle with that, trying to go to a bigger market or a bigger visibility versus staying in an area that's really close to home? Yeah, you know what? That's a good question. I did. A lot of people ask me that because I think if I would have pursued it or
00:57:47
Speaker
gave some kind of indication that that's what I wanted to do. I think it could have happened. And actually, I did have a job offer that I turned down at Newsday while I was covering the Indians, that 2000, you know, when they were making that run. But, you know, at the time, my family didn't want to move to Queens because, you know, Newsday is out in Long Island and I was going to be covering like
00:58:16
Speaker
High school in Queens and I was gonna be doing some things with Fordham basketball And so my family didn't want to leave and I don't know I mean, that's a great question because everybody asked Oh my god, you did all this. Why didn't you and I don't know if I I don't know if I wanted that Yeah, because I think if I would have just Said hey, yeah, this is what I want to do. I it probably could have happened but I was comfortable with what I had accomplished and
00:58:44
Speaker
You know, covering LeBron, writing books. I love high school. You know, I love college. So I kind of felt like, you know, hey, I'm comfortable with what I'm doing. So I'm going to stay put. Yeah. Yeah. There's I remember sort of brushing shoulders with Kate Fagan in upstate New York. That's where she grew up. And she worked for the the post star, which is in Glens Falls, New York and north of Saratoga Springs. And then she went out to Philadelphia in choir. And then since the ESPN is written,
00:59:14
Speaker
best-selling books. A lot of people, they get on that fast track. It's that upward scale of promotion. But then some people, they're like, I like my community. I like being folded into it and covering the speed. I don't need to cover a professional beat. It's actually kind of more nourishing to be able to talk to a high school sophomore who can't make eye contact versus someone who's media coached and insulated with
00:59:43
Speaker
you know, a PR department behind them. Yeah, that's a great point. You know, when you say, you know, that sophomore who won't look at you in the eye, and that's part of that trust that, you know, that you're able to instill or get them to trust you enough to where now they start looking at you, and then they start telling you a story that, you know, other people say, wow, you got her or him to say that.
01:00:08
Speaker
But to answer your question about the fast track, you're right. Brian Scoop, we all knew that's what he wanted to do. Chris Broussard, you could just tell these guys were on that track. And I think I was kind of on that track. I covered the Indians in the World Series in 97, and then they made the playoffs in 98, 99, all the way through 2000. I was in Boston.
01:00:37
Speaker
you know, Baltimore, you know, New York. Uh, but I just didn't push it enough or I didn't push it where others would say, man, why didn't you, I just didn't push it. I was happy. I was content. I was content with being able to do those, but then being able when that season was over, when the baseball season over fall right back into preps.
01:01:04
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of goes to the question of ambition. Were you any less ambitious just because you didn't want to go to that height? I would say no, but did you wrestle with that thing? Am I ambitious enough if I'm content covering Northeastern Ohio and Akron and the surrounding areas?
01:01:30
Speaker
Oh, no, not at all. Because if anything, I was probably one of the most ambitious writers there. Yeah. Because I was going to find those great stories. I was going to go talk to Derek Jeter. I was going to go talk to, you know, the people who people say stay away from them. You know, so I was very, very ambitious. As a matter of fact,
01:01:59
Speaker
That ambition is, is what got me where I am, you know, as far as writing books and, and leaving the journalism field and going back to school and, you know, becoming an English teacher. It was because of that ambition. And so, um, driving across, you know, the turnpike from Youngstown six hours, seven, eight hours across the George Washington bridge to Queens,
01:02:27
Speaker
to go to the New York Newsday Minority Job Conference four or five years in a row and then telling me, you know what? You're almost there. You just need more experience. And then finally getting a call from Newsday saying, Hey, we want to hire you. So, um, that ambition never left. I was just, I was just, there was, there was a place where I knew I was and had covered everything and didn't need to prove
01:02:56
Speaker
how ambitious I was, it was just keep writing great stories. Yeah, that's great. It's so hard, I think, for people to
01:03:09
Speaker
to become satisfied with where they are. There's this upward mobility, trying to scratch and claw to a higher degree of visibility. I was writing as an artist, you want your stuff to be read, you want an audience. How did you reach that level of satisfaction
01:03:29
Speaker
with your work and your stance in your region and not maybe be looking over your shoulder in that sort of competitive and jealous way that writers often and artists do when they look over their shoulder and be like, why are they getting that? Every bit is good.
01:03:46
Speaker
Yep, yep, yep. Hey, don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I don't look at it sometimes and say, man, you know what, Brian, you know, Brian, I'm doing all that. I could have done that. I mean, don't get me wrong. You know, you think about that. Right. But at the same time, that's not really what I wanted to do or or, you know, maybe that's not what he wanted me to do because he would have he would have pressed me more to a jump off of this and go take that job. Yeah. You know, but
01:04:15
Speaker
maybe it wasn't what, what was, you know, what I was intended to do. Um, because, you know, Chris, Brian, I see so many other people that I, that I had, you know, I either worked with or are friends with who worked at papers, bigger papers or on TV. And I say, wow, look at that. That's awesome. But no, I just,
01:04:41
Speaker
This is where I was supposed to be, I guess. And it all goes back to, you know, early on when we talked about I've always been a positive fun. Let's just kumbaya, no drama. Let's enjoy each other's company type of guy. And so if that meant for me to just stay in Northeast Ohio or or or teach the great Gatsby in a classroom or teach
01:05:11
Speaker
to kill a Mockingbird and understand symbolism and understand irony and understand what Atticus is trying to teach Scout. Who would have thought that when I was in Fenway Park? Who would have thought that when I was at the Bronx, Yankee State? Who would have thought that when I was at the United Center, the United Center covering the Bulls? Instead,
01:05:41
Speaker
I'm in a high school teaching kids how to write multi-paragraph essays. And they are looking at me like I'm the ninth wonder of the world. And I'm not at all.
01:06:02
Speaker
How did you make that pivot? You had that one moment 30 years ago when those women laughed at you and you're like, screw you guys, I'm going to be a writer and a damn good one.
01:06:17
Speaker
I laughed at you this time but like what was that a similar moment with that crystallized for you they're like you know what I want to pivot and and and teach young people you know what it you know the English language and how to read critically and how to write a multi multi-paragraph essay like what was that moment for you you are good
01:06:42
Speaker
You are amazing. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, what the hell? You I mean, you're in my brain, Brendan. Look, you you call that that moment is this. Let me let me go. But first, I mean, you're saying how to read critically. That's so important. That's exactly what we're doing. We're trying to get these kids to read critically. But this is what this is how it happened. So as I was, you know,
01:07:12
Speaker
After I'd written a few books, you know, as sports writers, you know, during the day, especially I had a bigger newspaper, we don't go in, we just cover our beat. So I had a lot of friends.
01:07:24
Speaker
from high school and college who were teachers. So they would say, Hey, David, could you come in and talk to our kids about English or about writing? So during the day, I would go into schools and just talk about writing. Hey guys, this is, you know, I'm a writer, never thought I'd be a writer. Um, you could become a writer. How many of you enjoy to write? So I was doing that. And the more I was doing that, I was doing it every day. I was like, I was trying to find friends. Hey, can I, can I come to your school? Can I come to your school? And then,
01:07:50
Speaker
after I'd kind of done that so many times, I was like, well, talk to some of your other friends, see if I can come to their schools. And once I started doing that, I said to myself, you know what? I may need to jump out of this journalism thing and become a teacher. And that's how it happened. That's how it happened. I left the Beacon Journal. I was there 15 years. I left the Beacon Journal in 2010.
01:08:20
Speaker
And I still wrote and I still write freelance if anyone wants, depending on what I want to do. But I went back to school and I had to take a few more classes, did what I had to do, took the Ohio Department of Education, the state test for English and got my license, teaching license.
01:08:42
Speaker
That's great. That pivot, did that feel like... I know that... Here I am starting to ask a question that I'm backfilling it with crap. Like I wouldn't do earlier.
01:09:02
Speaker
My question is that it gets at this idea of sunk cost that you spent 30 years as a journalist and then you're making this pivot to something that is in fact very satisfying and nourishing for you. Did those years feel that somehow like
01:09:29
Speaker
lack of a better term wasted. No, not at all. Not at all. You know what? And that's a good question. Not at all. Because you know what? The experiences that I've had through my journalism career, you can't even put a price on it when you're in front of students who think that they can't amount to anything.
01:09:56
Speaker
or think that reading is dumb or think that they won't ever be able to write or graduate or become anything or have any sense of why am I here? You know, I don't need to be here. I'm not gonna do anything. I'm not gonna pass the air test. I'm not gonna, I can't get this score on an ACT. And for me to be able to show them the movie more than a game, the LeBron movie, and then not tell them that I'm in it
01:10:26
Speaker
And when they see me on the screen and then they look at my desk and go, what the hell was that? That's Mr. Morgan. He's sitting over here. Wait, he's on the screen. And then they're like, then they get inspired. They're like, oh, and then when the movie's over after two or three days, they're still like, wait a minute. Why are you here? Yeah. Why are you here?
01:10:53
Speaker
And then I tell them stories about who I've met. And, and, and, and then I tell them, but you know what? I'm just a dude who was a marginal student in school, but look at where it's taking me. And so right there, you have them and you have them not only for that nine months, you have them,
01:11:19
Speaker
when they come back next year and they're not even your student, but before the bell rings for first period, they're in your room wanting to watch a flock of seagull on MTV because you're teaching them about so many things that they never knew existed. They want to watch human league. They want to watch the eurythmics. They want to watch, you know,
01:11:47
Speaker
The class they want to what they want to learn more about how to write. They want to learn about journalism. They want to learn about whatever it is. Priceless. It's priceless. Yeah. What's your favorite book to teach? You know what? It has to be.
01:12:08
Speaker
It has to be The Great Gatsby. I'm so glad you said that. I read that book every year in December. I read it once a year. Do you? That's awesome. Yeah, I love it. I can't get enough of it. You know why I love it? Because now hear me out. I mean, just follow me here. Because our school is mixed. It's mostly white. It's about maybe 70, 30, but we've got a make up of kids, some of the black kids who are in low income.
01:12:36
Speaker
Um, but when you read the great Gatsby, they love the roaring twenties because I tell them it's kind of like, it's like the hood, but it's not, it's like everybody's flashy. It's kind of like that, that late nineties when everybody was just party and having a good time. And you know, you had prohibition and you had the flappers and you had all the ladies, you know, dancing, you had all of that. Everything was just flashy. They love it. They love that because you could really relate the twenties to
01:13:05
Speaker
kind of what they are experiencing. The West Egg is like the West Coast, and the East Egg is like the East Coast. So it's fun. And so a lot of the kids, especially when Myrtle gets run over, they're just like, oh, man, I was wrong. They just get so into it. And so it's fun to, that's fun to teach them.
01:13:33
Speaker
It's a book that otherwise they probably wouldn't read. And you could say that for a lot of the works that we teach, that they wouldn't read it if we're not teaching them. And my experiences help deliver it in a way that engages them.
01:13:52
Speaker
Right. And it's such an approachable book, too. The more you unpack it, you realize how deep it is. But it is, you know, it's one hundred, what, eighty seven pages. And it's it is approachable and readable. And it's short, too. Yeah, it's it's only I think it's well, the book, I think it's nine chapters. So, you know, we get through it. It's it starts out slow a little bit. They don't want to read about Nick Arrow. They don't want to read all that. But then once they once once it gets
01:14:21
Speaker
After Chapter 2, they're all about it. Yeah. And what I love about it, too, as a primarily nonfiction writer, and I have to credit my friend Richard Gilbert, Ohio native. Not a native, but he lives in Ohio and I think he teaches at Ohio University.
01:14:42
Speaker
Okay, yeah, I think Yes, yes out of Athens He he wrote a great blog post jeez It must be 10 years ago now, but it's like the great Gatsby his memoir and it's so true like Gatsby I mean it's a novel but it it is the it is a memoir it is Nick Carraway from a from a remove talking about this snippet of time and
01:15:08
Speaker
And it's a other person centric memoir where he's really reflecting on his relationship with the central figure. And it's like, when I read Gatsby, I'm like, that's memoir done well, even though it's a novel. But that is the perfect memoir. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly what it is. I mean, I've never had anybody describe it to me that way. But actually, it is exactly that. It's Caraway talking about that guy that he loved.
01:15:38
Speaker
What it was like at that period all of that. I loved it. Yes, so that's that's a great That's great point. Have you read? I think it's a Maureen Corrigan's and so we read on about the impact of Gatsby No, no, I have not and and I'll be honest with you until until I
01:15:59
Speaker
I started teaching because I love to read but I'll tell you I read a certain genre and it's our I read it all the time. I love nonfiction. I love biographies about comedians.
01:16:11
Speaker
Oh cool. That's all that's all I read. I mean like Betty White Tina Fey I'm trying to think all the ones Richard Pryor Tracy Morgan Jim Gaffigan Paul Reiser Mary Tyler Moore Dean and Jerry I'm reading now I'm trying to think what other ones the deal hugely anything I anything Amy Poehler anything that comedian his all love it like and bossy pants because here's the thing like I told you growing up I
01:16:39
Speaker
I had older siblings, so they were out of the house. So I was always by myself. So I watched like the Merv Griffin show and I watched, you know, Dina Shore and I watched, you know, Match Game and I watched Tattletales and I watched the Jeffersons and Taxi and, you know, the Odd Couple and like all of those. And so that's what I love to read.
01:17:09
Speaker
Because that era, that time period, you know, being 52 and growing up in the early 70s and the mid 70s, you know, I wanted the Tonight Show. I mean, you know, back in the 70s and laughing, I've watched all of that.
01:17:28
Speaker
I can see when you are watching those people, those performers, whatever their art was, and whatever feeling that they elicited in you, I can see that that extrapolating out to your writing career. I want to do that with my craft and elicit a similar feeling of entertainment, enlightenment, whatever, and make other people feel as good as those people made me feel.
01:17:57
Speaker
Okay. You're scaring me, bro. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That is a, that's bullseye. That's a bullseye. I'm just like looking out the window. I'm like, wow. I'm reflecting on that because that's exactly, I mean, I'm kind of thinking back now. I mean, man.
01:18:26
Speaker
never had anybody really psychoanalyze that, but I think that's what it is. All of those shows, like Gomer Pyle and Andy Griffith's show and all of those, that's what
01:18:50
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. Well, you know, it's how I feel when I read, when I first got turned on to XYZ's byline or, you know, when I see someone's name, I know I'm in for a certain kind of experience. And John McPhee, Dave Eggers, Toni Morrison, you name it, like these Titanic people that I just respect so much. And I see that name.
01:19:19
Speaker
Before I've even read a word of that new article or whatever, it's just like I have already have a feeling like I know I'm in David Foster Wallace for his tennis writing especially. It's just like I know I'm in for this kind of experience and I was like you know if I could
01:19:34
Speaker
And it's fill in the blank for whatever television or comedian, whatever that is. You see that name up there in lights. You're like, okay, I'm along the ride for whatever you want. And so much of me is like a lot of my ego is tied to that. And now like, you know what, maybe I could similarly do something. If someone sees my byline or whatever, like, okay, I know I'm in for this kind of experience. So it's kind of like just wanting to be in the club, so to speak.
01:20:03
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you know what? That's kind of one of the things that I really was proud of when I worked at The Beacon and exactly what you were explaining because I tried to infuse all of those positive energies and positive, you know, all of those things that I used to read and watch on TV and try to infuse those into my writing. People used to always say,
01:20:31
Speaker
Loved your right. When I saw your byline, I knew what type of story was gonna be there. You know what I mean? And now don't get me wrong, when I had to write hard news or I had to write how the Indians blew a 3-1 lead, obviously you're writing hard news and why that happened. The bullpen collapsed. But when it came to those stories, those feature stories or those game stories that had some kind of story like the kid who was his grandmother,
01:21:01
Speaker
passing. You know, I knew I was going to conjure up all of those things, all those positive things that that that were inside of me, and that was going to translate into what I wrote. And, you know, to add this, you know, one thing you were talking about, you were talking with Toni Morrison, and I remember one year, I think it was 2010. I, I, and I'm not saying this to brag or anything like that. But that year, I was, I was,
01:21:31
Speaker
I was one of the top 10 featured authors in the state of Ohio at the Ohioana Book Festival. That's the biggest book festival in Ohio. And I'm trying to think, there was somebody else who was on that list. And we were invited to the Governor's Mansion, Ted Strickland. And you know what, here's the thing. I always felt, why am I here?
01:22:02
Speaker
there is no way that I should be one of the 10 Nikki Giovanni. She was another one because she was from Ohio. And I'm thinking to myself, there is no way my work is anywhere near as good as this. But you know what it was? I think it's what you had talked about. Because of my positive energy. I didn't care that was part that that was who I am. And that's what got me there.
01:22:29
Speaker
The way I wrote, people saw how
Writing Style and Identity
01:22:32
Speaker
I felt. They saw what I believed in. And if that's what got me the featured artist, one of the featured writers, then so be it. That's my writing style. That's who I am.
01:22:47
Speaker
Yeah, you had a point of view and in a worldview that in a way your stories are shaded through your taste and that clearly resonated with people for sure. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes, absolutely. So sometimes you feel and you probably feel this way as well.
01:23:11
Speaker
You know, there's no way I'm my writing, you know, you kind of actually you kind of doubt yourself, but that's what we do as writers. We, you know, as artists, we doubt ourselves all the time. This is crap. This is horror. You know, what makes you think you're any better than Brian Winhurst or Chris Broussard or you're not that good or you would be there, you know, and then then you think you're like, you know what? I am that talented. I am good.
01:23:40
Speaker
I, I, I, you know, it's just, we find different paths. We find what we find our niche. We find where we want to settle. And I mean, settle, I mean, where we want to. And where we want to drift down and say, okay, this is what I'm intended to do. This is what I'm supposed to do.
01:24:01
Speaker
How did you, or do you overcome those feelings of self-doubt in those moments, especially when you're in the middle of a writing project that you feel that might be over your head and you've got that imposter syndrome going on? How have you been able to forge your head and write something that is quintessentially something from your point of view?
01:24:27
Speaker
Yeah, the LeBron book was a project that I thought I was in over my head without a doubt because of the because of, you know, just as I was writing it, just looking at the expectations and who LeBron was and looking, you know, trying to project into the future and say, OK, this could possibly be arguably the one of the greatest NBA players, and he hasn't even played a minute. So
01:24:56
Speaker
There was a lot of self-doubt, but you know what I did? I said, it goes back to that trust. Trust yourself. You know LeBron. Nobody knows LeBron outside of his family. No other reporter in the universe. That's how I kept telling myself. Nobody in the world right now, no other reporter knows LeBron as close as you do. And no one did because the school, Gloria,
01:25:23
Speaker
They weren't letting anybody get close except me. So I looked at it like that. I looked at it like nobody knows all the ins and outs of the practices, what Gloria is like, what LeBron is like, except you right now. Now eventually people will because he's going to have to come out of that bubble, which he did when he went to the NBA. But up to that point, nobody really had access
01:25:54
Speaker
in the country, except, I mean, now other reporters like the plane dealer, they were around, but really nobody had like numbers or could, could, could roll up to somebody's house who coached him and say, Hey, yeah, David, you know what? He stayed with us when Gloria was having some issues and I can tell you everything about him.
01:26:15
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, David. Hey, David, I could tell you, I coached him when he was with the South Rangers and, um, uh, Peewee football. And you know what? He was a better football player and he could have been a better NFL player than he was an NBA player. And everybody to this day still tells me that. And LeBron will tell you he was a better football player than he was a basketball player. You can look that up. You can look it up anywhere. He was a better football. He was all state and football in high school until he broke his wrist. So,
01:26:44
Speaker
So that's how I overcome that self-doubt. Just, hey, trust, do you trust yourself? Do you have enough material for people to say he is an expert or he really knows the topic of which he's writing? Then if you do, then you just write on. Yeah.
01:27:06
Speaker
How do you build writing into your into your day now, now that it's not your primary vocation? Yeah, well, what I'm doing right now, I don't look for it because I don't look for a project because that's that it's not going to be real. It's not going to be it's not going to be I don't want to fabricate anything just just just to write.
Meaningful Writing Projects
01:27:36
Speaker
So right now I'm working on a project with some other filmmakers. We're doing a documentary. We're hoping it'll come out in 2020 on NFL Hall of Famer, Marion Motley. And I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but he was one of the, one of the first four to, to break the color barrier and professional football. And he played for Paul Brown. Yeah.
01:27:58
Speaker
He played for Paul Brown and he's in the Hall of Fame. And one of the things we're doing, you know, I live in Canton. Matter of fact, I could see the Hall of Fame from my window. And we're working on a project to have a statue built for Marion Motley because there's nothing here to show the significance of what he did before Jackie Robinson did that in baseball. Baseball was just the more popular sport.
01:28:25
Speaker
So that's what I'm working on now. And that means a lot to me being an African-American male. And so things like that, being able to join a project like that, that allows me to continue to write. I'm also working on something. I'm trying to work on a book about my mom's experience as a gospel singer. But those are things, like I said, it goes back to
01:28:55
Speaker
It's personal, it's something I trust. So I'm having fun writing these things. Otherwise, I would just be trying to fabricate things that aren't there and it wouldn't be any good.
01:29:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's the challenge. The fact that these projects are fun and engaging you on a level, it's like these are things you actually, you have to do them. You're not doing it to meet some sort of arbitrary deadline or it's something that really is close to your artistic taste and you're like, yeah, I'm doing this because I want to and it's fun. Yeah, that's it because, you know,
01:29:39
Speaker
I could say, hey, let's say the University of Akron is right down the street. They play in the Mid-American Conference. So let's say they host Howard University from DC. I could call them Washington Post or a smaller newspaper and say, hey, do you want six inches? Or do you want me to write something? You want so many words or whatever.
01:30:10
Speaker
I used to do that, you know, or you want a feature story, you know, but I don't need to do that. I don't have to do that. Yeah. And, you know, hey, you want, you know, the local newspaper here, I think it was a couple of years ago when the cast made it to the, they made it to the finals and they had, what's his name? Dela, Dela Vadova. Uh, and,
01:30:39
Speaker
I said, hey, you want me to write a piece of how he reminds me of one of LeBron's high school, how they're similar. They said, yeah, right. So they wrote it. And I mean, I wrote it and they, they, they posted it and I'll do things like that. But I mean, really, if it doesn't really hit me, if it's not going to make an impact, I'm not going to try to write anything. It's going to be horrible.
01:31:02
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, you know, David, we've been talking for nearly 90 minutes. I feel like I could go another 90, but I want to be mindful of your time. And I know the Buckeyes are going to be playing soon. Yeah. Yeah, they're on. Hey, let me tell you this, Brendan. Couple things. Do you ever watch Bob's Burgers?
01:31:19
Speaker
I've caught maybe five episodes, but not regularly. Does anybody ever tell you that you sound like Bob? No, no. Okay, you got to listen. YouTube just Bob's burgers and just listen to Bob. Okay. He's the same guy that does the Arby's, the new Arby's commercials. Okay. And your voice, you ever watch Dr. Katz, it used to be on Comedy Central? No, no. Okay, okay.
01:31:48
Speaker
You do me this favor, just look up Bob's Burgers and just listen to Bob's voice for a minute. You might not recognize it, but I'm telling you, you sound just like him. All right. I hope that's a good thing. Oh, it absolutely is. It's one of my favorite shows. And here's the last thing I'm going to tell you. Guess where I secured my first full time writing job. Oh. The Youngstown Vindicator. Okay.
01:32:18
Speaker
The same newspaper where the ladies laughed at me. No kidding. When I graduated from Youngstown State with my degree in professional writing and editing, the Vindicator hired me. Were they still there? I looked for them. The very first day I got there and signed everything, I looked for those two ladies and they were not there.
01:32:48
Speaker
That would have been perfect. I know. I know. I know the very I mean, I interned in Raleigh, North Carolina at the News and Observer. I was other place. My very first full time job was at the Vindicator, that same place where they laughed at me.
01:33:03
Speaker
Well David, thank you so much for jumping on the show and talking shop and you know your life and approach to the work and everything. I hope maybe we can in a few more months or when a documentary comes out or anything, open invitation, I'd love to have you back on and we'll just keep chipping away at this writing game and little tips and tricks about the craft. It would be just great to keep picking your brain.
01:33:28
Speaker
Yeah, no problem. You know what?
Podcast Conclusion and Gratitude
01:33:30
Speaker
I really appreciate it, Brendan. I'm glad we got to know each other just through writing, just me throwing stuff out there and you friending me. And we've talked on several occasions. I appreciate you having me on your show. I really do. I've looked at and listened to some of your podcasts. I love what you're doing. I love your Twitter page. It's very informative. And I love some of the things that you posted on there.
01:33:56
Speaker
you know me I could I'm long winded so I hope you can cut some of that up so I don't sound like a windbag I don't think I'm gonna cut pretty much anything you sounded sounding great
01:34:15
Speaker
Am I right? I am right. You gotta be right. How great is David? Can't wait until that documentary he's working on comes out so I can bug him to get him back on the show. Really twist his arm. I think it might take some twisting, right? I don't think so. Thanks to our sponsors and Goucher College's MFA in nonfiction as well as Creative Nonfiction Magazine. What else?
01:34:42
Speaker
Oh yeah, be sure to subscribe to the show across whatever platform you tend to subscribe to.
01:34:51
Speaker
And be sure to head over to BrendanOmera.com for show notes and to sign up for my monthly newsletter. New one goes out on the first of the month. It's an inventory of great reading material I come across over the course of a month, books, some articles, essays, whatever, whatever I can link to, as well as what you might have missed from the world of the podcast. I hope it gives you as much value as it gives me by merely putting it together.
01:35:19
Speaker
I'm at Brendan O'Mara on Twitter and at CNF Pod on Twitter. The podcast is at CNF Pod host on Facebook. So connect with me or the show wherever you like. The show is in service of you. So if you have questions of me or my guests, please don't be shy to email or ping me on social.
01:35:42
Speaker
That's gonna be it, CNFers. Let the rockin' rule take you away if you can't do interview. See ya.