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Episode 107—Matt Pentz on Collaboration, Hard Work, and U.S. Soccer
128 Plays7 years ago
“The work that you put in is what comes out,” says freelance Seattle-based sports writer Matt Pentz. Well, well, well, what’s going on CNFers, my CNF Buddies, it’s The Creative Nonfiction Podcast whereby I interview purveyors of the almighty true story. Today is no different as I welcome Matt Pentz, @mattpentz on Twitter, for Episode 107 of the podcast. Matt is a freelance sports writer based out of Seattle. In this episode we dig into his co-written expose on the U.S. Men’s Soccer Team that he wrote with Andrew Helms for The Ringer. We get real granular on how he collaborated on that piece. We also talk about how he handles his days as a freelancer and other influential writers. Share the episode if you dig it and tag me on social @BrendanOMeara and @CNFPod on Twitter. You guys are the social network so when you share it, I know you’re digging it. Thanks for listening everybody. If you dig the show, consider leaving an honest review on Apple Podcasts and sharing with a friend. Reach out on the socials if you have questions, concerns, or feedback. Also, if you head over to brendanomeara.com, not only will you find show notes for every episode, but you can sign up for the ever-growing monthly reading list newsletter where I share my book recommendations for the month, as well as what you might have missed from the world of the podcast. Once a month. No spam. Can’t beat it.
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Transcript
HippoCamp 2018 Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
The Creative Nonfiction Podcast is sponsored by HippoCamp 2018. Now in its fourth year, HippoCamp is a three-day Pennsylvania writing conference that features 50-plus speakers, engaging sessions and four tracks, interactive all-conference panels, author and attendee readings, social activities, networking ops,
00:00:24
Speaker
and optional intimate pre-conference workshops. The conference takes place in lovely Lancaster from August 24th through August 26th. Past keynotes have been Lee Gookind, Mary Carr, Denty W. Moore, and Jane Friedman. This year, Abigail Thomas will be the featured speaker.
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Speaker
visit hippocampusmagazine.com and click the conference tab in the toolbar and if you enter the keyword cnfpod at checkout you will receive a $50 discount. This offer is only good through August 10th
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Speaker
or until all those tickets are sold, there are a limited number, so act now, like right now. The registration is $429, otherwise, $379 with the discount, through August 10th, then goes up to $449 on site. So if you sign up through the portal before the conference starts, you're actually saving $70. Hippo Camp 2018, create, share, live.
00:01:33
Speaker
You ready? Let's hit it.
Meet Matt Pence: Freelance Sports Writer
00:01:37
Speaker
Well, well, well. What's going on, CNFers, my CNF buddies? It's a creative nonfiction podcast whereby I interview purveyors of the almighty true story. Today is no different, as I welcome Matt Pence, at Matt Pence on Twitter.
00:01:57
Speaker
That is M-A-T-T-P-E-N-T-Z for episode 107 of the podcast. That is a freelance sports writer based out of Seattle. In this episode, we dig into his co-written expose on the US men's soccer team that he wrote with Andrew Helms for the ringer.com.
00:02:19
Speaker
We get real granular on how he collaborated on that piece. So that's more of the second half of the episode. Hope you dig. We also talk about how he handles his days as a freelancer and other influential writers. Share this episode if you dig. And tag me on social, at Brendan O'Mara and at cnfpod on Twitter. You guys are the social network. So when you share it, I'll know you're digging
Transitioning from Beat Writer to Freelance
00:02:44
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it. Why wait? Here's Nat Pence.
00:02:55
Speaker
You co-wrote with the ringer I caught you on the podcast to talking about the ringer FC one and it was Hearing hearing you say like oh, we're just a couple of freelancers who have Lots of time on our hands and I was like, you know, it's a joke But there's no there's no way he's got a lot of time on his hands and I'd love to unpack
00:03:15
Speaker
How you go about chronicling or going about your work and setting up your days so you actually don't have a lot of time because as a freelancer, when you're not working, you're not earning. So how are you setting up your days now that you're freelancing versus a beat writer or a salaried beat writer? Yeah, it certainly took, I'd say, about half a year to kind of establish a new rhythm.
00:03:44
Speaker
Um, I started full-time freelancing, um, in February of last year and it was probably at least through the summer before I really started to kind of find that rhythm because as you alluded to pretty much as a freelancer, time is your money and it's easy to really sort of feel like you should be working all the time or feel guilty for giving yourself downtime. So I just kind of try to set aside a chunk of every day.
00:04:13
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Usually after lunchtime before dinner time and devote that to make sure I'm doing something productive during that stretch. And then the rest of it kind of fluctuates. There'll be days where I'm productive in the morning and then also do that or end up working into the evening or doing whatever. But that sort of has helped me.
00:04:34
Speaker
having that little bit of structure, if that makes sense. Yeah, of course. And you said it took you a little while to find that rhythm. So what was that time like for you to establish that rhythm and to try to gain some kind of momentum so you could feel like you're accomplishing something and then setting, just getting that ball uphill so then you can start creating your own momentum.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, really, it was just throwing a lot at the wall, essentially. So I was just working a lot. I also, even now, I work at a restaurant two nights a week to kind of balance out, sort of just to make sure that the income is somewhat regular. There are very few freelancers that you talk to that truly do freelance journalism full time. They either do copywriting for big companies or sort of
00:05:34
Speaker
some other creative field, whereas for me, I kind of found out that I only have so many good words in me a week. Um, so I wanted to do something with a different part of my brain. So I ended up doing that on the side. And so I was working there more hours than I was now, also trying to freelance for all these different outlets to get my foot in the door. So it really took a lot of hustle to get to a point where I could kind of take a critical look at what I was doing and figuring out exactly what I want to do.
00:06:04
Speaker
That's great. I love that you're comfortable admitting that there is sometimes this extra day job kind of wing to your income. Lots of people don't want to admit that for fear of embarrassment, especially well-educated people. You invest a lot in your college and everything and to admit that you might have to have something that is maybe not in your field sometimes I guess bruises the ego.
Challenges and Realities of Freelancing
00:06:29
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I guess for me, I just want to make sure I'm being upfront with everybody because I have a lot of people reach out, inspiring writers or writers that are working for different outlets now and are intrigued by the idea of freelancing and to get the full picture of it. I mean, it really does require some sacrifice to some degree. And I feel like it's important to be upfront about what it requires. And for me, I'm totally fine with that.
00:06:56
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I find I enjoy my coworkers. I like the social aspect of getting out and interacting people. Cause that's another thing being a freelancer and working on your own time. You spend a lot of time by yourself on a computer. So that has also kind of helped for me to kind of alleviate some of that sort of isolation that can really be a thing for freelancers.
00:07:18
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Yeah, for sure. That loneliness thing is that is real when you're when you're freelancing and trying to come up with your own ideas and you're doing everything basically, lots of things remotely, especially if you're not in like a major metropolitan area. So what were you doing aside from the job to try to alleviate some of that loneliness and then try to keep those voices of self doubt as muted as possible?
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just had to be a little bit more aggressive with my social life than really being aggressive and reaching out to friends and trying to set stuff up every so often. Because whenever I was working at the Times, I was lucky enough that some of my best friends in the city also worked for the newspaper. So I get to see them in the office all the time and sort of keep those relationships going that way. So as a freelancer, you just kind of have to work a little bit harder in terms of keeping those connections
00:08:17
Speaker
forcing yourself out of the house and doing all that. And thankfully, I'm a pretty social person. So I've been able to kind of stay on top of that in a lot of ways and make sure that I get out of my apartment every so often. And what was your approach to querying stories and trying to create opportunity for yourself as you hung up your own shingle?
00:08:40
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Yeah, that would certainly do to having a lot of very helpful sort of peers and colleagues that were willing to kind of open some of those doors. And especially within the US soccer journalism community, it's not a particularly big world. There are a lot of interconnections there. And whenever I ended up transitioning out of the newspaper, I had a lot of people reach out to me and offer their services if ever they could.
00:09:08
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be of any help. And I just kind of took them up on that a lot of times asking about maybe the outlets that they were working for, or editors that they would recommend reaching out to. And it makes a big difference when you can have that conduit, rather than just sort of like cold calling people. Because there's only really so much a lot of these places, I mean, I'm sure that they get lots and lots and lots of emails. So being able to have that previous connection was really helpful for me, at least. And a lot of that, I
00:09:37
Speaker
can't speak highly enough of all the different people that were able to open those doors.
Freelancing After a Layoff: A New Opportunity
00:09:43
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What was that moment like for you after being, you know, a steady beat writer for, you know, a big paper and then choosing to go out and freelance, you know, what was that inflection point like for you? Yeah, for sure. And well, and also full disclosure was that it wasn't entirely my choice. I was actually laid off by the newspaper.
00:10:06
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Um, they were, I was sort of one of the people farther down the totem pole and they got from the bottom and there we were. But for me, I guess you always kind of want to make the best of everything. But for me, I don't know that I had wanted to be a full-time beat writer much longer than I was. Some people really liked the day-to-day grind and the day-to-day stories and kind of keeping the news cycle going. Whereas for me, I've always liked the bigger picture stuff.
00:10:34
Speaker
being able to take a step back and write one really detailed story rather than sort of piecing it together day by day. So for me, I just kind of looked at it as an opportunity to make a transition that I had hoped to want to do one day anyway. So it sort of threw me off the deep end and just sort of forced me to figure out if I could make it. And looking back, I think it was definitely a good thing. I mean, I've had
00:11:00
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Couple good stories that I'm proud of. I have actually a book coming out in March of next year on The Sounders, and I never would have had the time to be able to do that or any of this other stuff had I still been working for The Times on the beat. So as with anything, you make the most of it. But for me, I think it was kind of a natural step I needed to make in my career.
00:11:21
Speaker
I know that doing breaking news stuff and that type of reporting just has never appealed to me in any way. It just doesn't suit my taste for what that's worth. Sometimes you just come to a realization that the nature of your talent, some people thrive on that and other people don't.
00:11:48
Speaker
So come to the realization and realize the nature of your talent, which appears to be these more deeply, deeply reported long form, long form pieces.
Long-Form Storytelling vs. Breaking News
00:11:59
Speaker
How did you arrive at that? Yeah, I mean, I guess it's just trial and error, mostly, and just kind of taking a hard look at what you're good at and what you're not. I mean, I know some really good reporters like Bob Condota works in the Seattle Times. He's a Seahawks beat reporter, and that guy is just a machine. Like he can turn.
00:12:17
Speaker
some Thursday in the off season and crank out five posts from how some people just have it. And I just have never, that's just something that, that through working on the beat and through sort of that day to day grind that you just kind of find out about yourself that maybe that's not where your strengths lie. And then you kind of have to make up for that another way. So that kind of nudged me to do the bigger picture things and
00:12:42
Speaker
And then there's sort of a pressure that comes with that. Cause if you're going to be writing less often, you have to make sure it really sings. So it sort of forces you to hone in and work hard in your own way. Um, so I think that just for me, that process just kind of came about through sort of hands on experience, I guess.
00:13:00
Speaker
And who were you reading maybe as a student and as an aspiring writer that sort of fed into your taste and your desire to write the kind of stuff you're doing now? Yeah, I'm sure that this is a pretty common answer for a lot of sort of sports writers of my generation. I think that Wright Thompson was always kind of the guy that
00:13:25
Speaker
was doing I think sort of the A number one best stuff when it came to that. I actually had a friend send me the other day during the Uruguay game. He had sent me back around the profile that Wright had done with him in 2014 and I read it back and he's such a good writer and really sort of sees the world in a certain way that I identify with and I certainly don't think that I'm anywhere near his level at this point something to strive for. But I think that he just sort of
00:13:53
Speaker
He sports in a different way and he's been sort of as a window to some of these bigger picture topics. Um, and sort of, he was a guy that when you saw him making it and you looked at his job and you think that it's out there. I mean, it certainly, there aren't as many of those jobs as there once were. And there's only so much of that to go around, but he sort of proved that you could do it and you could write in this certain way and make it feasible for you.
00:14:20
Speaker
And when you're reading a piece of journalism of that nature by him specifically, because it sounds like he's the type of guy you're rereading as well, how do you turn your critical eye onto that so you can start to deconstruct it and unpack it so you can apply some of those tools that you're discovering in those pieces?
00:14:46
Speaker
For sure, I think that probably the first time I read something, I just kind of try to enjoy it and unplug your brain to a certain degree. But then I think that my process, at least, is whenever I'm working on some big story idea that it sort of triggers something in your mind that, oh, it's sort of similar to this story that I read whenever. So you go back and sort of read that, and then you look for clues that way. Like, for example, for the athletic, I'm working on a Clint Dempsey feature.
00:15:16
Speaker
It's not too over the top, but still a little bit in-depth reported story. And the idea came out of Sam Borden's profile on Lionel Messi that he wrote for ESPN and magazine before the World Cup. And sort of the entire premise of the story is that because the Messi is so guarded and so private, he doesn't like to say a lot, but in a lot of ways that says a lot about him that he's not out there.
00:15:42
Speaker
giving too many interviews or on too many ads or whatever. He really does kind of like to keep it to himself. And so what does that say about him? And then I wanted to apply sort of that same question to Clint Dempsey, because he really kind of has had a very similar mentality and a very similar persona for a lot of years. And so then you go back and you read his story and see what he did. Um, and then you try to pick up and emulate some of that in your own stuff.
00:16:08
Speaker
So with, uh, with a story that you're working on with Clint Dempsey, who is, uh, not as like you were saying, like messy, not quite as main mainstream, not quite as, um, on the forefront and self promoting, how are you pitching him a story that you want to write about him and getting him on board?
Reporting Challenges: The Clint Dempsey Story
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, Dempsey's a good question because he's just, he's not very open at all. I mean, this is one of those stories that's reported mostly around him, honestly. And that was kind of part of the point. Having covered him now for what, more than three and a half years, give or take since he came out here, you just sort of learn that he's not really going to be on board with really anything. He just kind of wants to keep to himself and be left alone. And even if you do get him to sit down, he's really not going to open up or tell you much. So.
00:17:01
Speaker
He's a little bit more of a challenge for a reporter and that he makes you think super creatively to tell these stories and to make his story interesting, just because he's not really going to let you in. So for me, a lot of this has been reporting around him, which is both a good challenge and a bad, and it's just a challenge, I think.
00:17:20
Speaker
My experience with that is it's not very extensive, but it's almost kind of fun. Like when your central figure is the one that you don't really have much access to and it's just like Thales's, Frank Sinatra has a cold and all that. It tends to, I think, give a more well-rounded thing when you're getting other people's impressions of your central figure.
00:17:41
Speaker
So what's your approach to that kind of reporting and trying to get some nice, tangible, beautiful details from the satellite figures of your main figure? A lot of it's just sort of relationships and having been around. I mean, as someone who's been around the Sounders for a decent amount of time here, I just kind of know which guys to go to that will give me good detail when it comes to a lot of that, which is really helpful, I think.
00:18:11
Speaker
You were kind of talking earlier about sort of the lessons that you take from some of these stories that you read from a Wright Thompson or some of these really well-reported ones. It's just sort of, you realize that the good stuff just comes down to the work that you put in is what comes out. Again, you can think to yourself that, oh, well, Wright Thompson is such a talented, natural writer. You could probably just sit down and write it tomorrow if you wanted to. But it really does come down to the reporting.
00:18:37
Speaker
in the work that you put in and the amount of voices you're willing to talk to to really flesh out this portrait. And so for a story like that, that's especially important because the more perspectives that you can get, the more that that's going to come through and the more that you can sort of tell that true accurate story about someone, even if they themselves don't want to get too involved.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, when I read a long, let's say, New Yorker profile or something, sometimes I'll take out a highlighter and I'll highlight every individual source in there, and then you find out that over the course of a six or an eight or a 10,000-word piece that
00:19:16
Speaker
There are just dozens upon dozens of sources that are actually just in there quoted. And who knows how many people have been spoken to that are just giving some background information. So sometimes these great tacticians of the words, it feels like they're just conjuring all the stuff. But when you really boil it down and reduce it to its essence, you found that the writing is so good because the reporting was so extensive.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yes, 100%. And that's something that I think that the more and more involved as I get in doing more and more in depth, longer stories, like that is something that cannot be forced. And it will always show through whether the holes in your reporting or the amount of reporting that go into it, that's always going to come through at the end. And again, I think more than looking at stylistic stuff, I sort of identify with you and that whenever I read a story like that,
00:20:11
Speaker
I can now have a sense for how much work went into it. And I think that it allows me to appreciate them a little bit more that they were able to to pull that off because it's certainly not an easy thing to do.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, and it gives you some hope, actually. You're like, oh, yeah. It was kind of like you were saying earlier. It's work to do it. And the more work you put in, it's like work effort in gives you this much better result. So you start to see the work that goes into it.
00:20:42
Speaker
And then through rewrites and refining, it becomes what it is. And then it kind of gives you some hope that, oh, if I just grind on this and show a lot of rigor and tenacity, like, ah, I can do this too. For sure. It definitely sort of levels the playing field to some degree. It's also a little bit daunting, whatever you think, but it does take a lot of work and you have to be willing to do that. And I think that in many ways it does kind of
00:21:10
Speaker
It does sort of separate the wheat from the chaff or whatever and sort of sort of winnowing down the people that are willing to do it. And you sort of recognize why that skill is so valuable.
The US Men's Soccer Exposé Journey
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah, and the piece that you wrote for The Ringer, co-wrote with Andrew Helms, they got a 10,000 word feature that is very expository, kind of an expose of what happened to the US men's national team and how it kind of fell apart in the last seven years. So how did you and Andrew come to this story? And then we can start unpacking some of the details of it at that point.
00:21:52
Speaker
For sure. I mean, it really just kind of arose from a casual phone call. It's also another sort of blessing in disguise example, because I had actually planned on going to Russia to cover the World Cup. And I had talked to ESTN and we had had some advanced talks about me going and covering the tournament, which would have been great. I mean, it would have been such a cool experience to be able to do that, and especially as amazing as this World Cup has been. What a love to have been there.
00:22:21
Speaker
So watching that game in Trinidad and having everything happen the way that it did, and it really was bombed out for sort of even a week, just not only as a fan of American soccer, but also professionally and personally, it really did sort of just put an end to something I really wanted to do. And so I was just sort of talking to a lot of different friends in the American soccer community, and we were all sort of lamenting together. And I had known Andrew for a couple of years.
00:22:51
Speaker
He also worked as a producer for PBS. And he was visiting Seattle from some story two or three years ago. And he just asked to meet up and get a beer and just sort of build the network because he had read some of my stuff and we had met up and kept in touch. And so we had talked over the phone and we were just kind of going back and forth, just sort of trying to unpack sort of the central question of that story, which is what happened? I mean, how was it possible that the U.S.
00:23:20
Speaker
with all of its advantages, it's fallen short against not only just Trinidad, but falling below Panama and Honduras to get knocked out in the way that they did. And just sort of both of us are just kind of like, well, like maybe we should tell that story. There aren't a lot of people within the community that really have the bandwidth to really dig in and devote the amount of time necessary to tell that story. And me as a freelancer, he was transitioning into freelancing.
00:23:47
Speaker
just kind of decided to start poking around. And we were able to have a couple of different conversations with people early on in the process that really encouraged us that there was something there. And then it all just kind of built from there. So what was the the actual pitching process like for the two of you as and then how did you ultimately land it at the ringer? Yeah, we pitched it a number of different places and sort of building off of something that you asked earlier.
00:24:17
Speaker
about it being a little bit of a niche sports, it can be a little bit tough to really go and have people latch onto it. I mean, we had one of the bigger magazines that we had approached then, we had approached sort of every sort of big outlet that you can imagine, just sort of catching our idea. And we had spent even probably the first couple months honing in on exactly the story that we wanted to tell. And we were originally pitching it as a
00:24:45
Speaker
four thousand, five thousand word story. And even at that length, there weren't many outlets that really were that interested. There are a couple that maybe you can tell just the specific story of that night in Trinidad for fifteen hundred words, two thousand words. But we just don't think that the casual interest is going to be there for readers beyond that. So we could have decided to do that. But we did really want to if we were going to do it, we wanted to do it right. And we wanted to tell that full story.
00:25:15
Speaker
Eventually Andrew had a contact at the ringer, brought it to them and they seemed not only interested in it at 4,000 words, they were really encouraging and being right to the length that you think is appropriate. We really liked the idea. You have our backing go into your thing. And that was probably in January, give or take. And then, yeah, just kind of really dug in and spent the next couple months really fleshing it out.
00:25:40
Speaker
And for people who might not be familiar or, uh, yeah, familiar with having a co-reporter and a co-writer on a story, what was that process like and how did you divide up the reporting and the research? For sure. And it was all, it was new to me as well. This was sort of a first time I had never worked with someone in that capacity before. And thankfully I think that me and Andrew's skill sets balanced each other out really well.
00:26:09
Speaker
Um, he's based in, in Washington, DC, and he's been a little bit more around the background figures, the people within the Federation, people that were around. He just sort of was plugged into that part of it. Whereas I had covered MLS for two and a half, three years and had access to most of the players. So it really just kind of came down to naturally. I reached out and talked to most of the players. He reached out and talked to a lot of the people behind the scenes.
00:26:38
Speaker
And it just kind of worked out that way. And then once we had all the interviews, once we got down to the writing stage, we just kind of broke it up by section, kind of being like, oh, because you did more of this reporting, maybe write this section and then I can go in and edit and rewrite. And we just kind of went back and forth on sections. So it really ended up being a much smoother process than I thought it might be. And we really didn't.
00:27:02
Speaker
butt heads about workflow or you're going to do this or I'm going to do that very often, which I thought was good. Yeah. And the story too, it doesn't feel, and this is a testament to the two of you, it doesn't feel like two writers wrote it. It does feel nice and uniform, like a uniform voice throughout the whole thing. And so what was that process like as you tried to maybe iron out the wrinkles between you and Andrew?
00:27:31
Speaker
For that, I think that, uh, a lot of credit is, is due to our editors at the ringer because they were really, really good. Uh, and sort of fleshing that out and, and really honing in, like we had submitted a rough draft that we felt comfortable with, but it was a little bit disjointed and we were really sort of leaning on them to help guide the way. And they did a really good job in helping us to sort of find that specific voice in that specific story that we were trying to tell.
00:28:01
Speaker
We went through pretty extensive edits. I mean, probably went back and forth three or four times with really extensive edits before we even got into the copy editing process. So I think I'm really happy with the way that it worked out. I think that at the ringer that that was sort of the outlet that it was meant to be at just because they empowered us to write long and then they really helped hone in on the story we wanted to tell.
00:28:26
Speaker
And based on the nature, and it's fairly sensitive stuff to the people involved in the story. So how are you approaching players and management and knowing that you were going to write something that wasn't going to be very flattering for the whole US men's soccer? So how are you navigating those conversations so people, even if there was going to be anonymous, that they would feel comfortable talking to you?
00:28:57
Speaker
For sure. And I think for us, that was the most challenging thing of this whole process because again, you're pretty much, you're not, you're not really telling a feel good story. You're pretty much going to people and you're like, oh, tell us how you screwed up. And shockingly, it turns out that not a lot of people want to discuss their collective failure at Lane typically. Um, so it really just kind of came down to relationships and connections at the end of the day, just because
00:29:27
Speaker
using sort of players to vouch for other players. And someone like Brad Evans, for example, I covered with Seattle for a couple of years. We had a really good working relationship together. And so I sort of started with him and he provided some really helpful context. And he's always been just a really intelligent speaker and provides a good perspective. And then through him, I was able to kind of have him reach out to a couple of different guys and be like, you can trust these guys. It'll be all right.
00:29:57
Speaker
But that was really the most challenging part of it and really it just required hearing a lot of no's. I mean, for every place that we were able to include in the story, there were five that wouldn't talk to us at all and another couple that would only speak deep on background. So it really was just a process of chipping away.
00:30:17
Speaker
getting all of these necessary perspectives. Yeah, that kind of gets to the next point I want to talk to you about was, you know, in a sense, like, how are you ending these phone calls to? Yeah, are you asking them, like, who else should I talk to? Or are you like, in the case of Evan saying, Can you talk to a few of the other guys, I'd love to get their perspectives? Yeah, typically both. I mean, sort of,
00:30:45
Speaker
Just my process in general, I typically do, as a matter of practice, try to, at the end of most interviews, ask them who else I should talk to to get their perspectives, because I think that that's really helpful. In this case, it was, yeah, it was A, who should we talk to? And B, can you put in a good word? Kind of became our process down the line.
00:31:08
Speaker
That ended up working too for us to some degree. And of course, you know, you tried to reach out the cleanseman who's the big figure of this, you know, sort of the maligned former coach who came in, tried to change the culture and really busted up a locker room and kind of was the spearhead of the downward spiral.
00:31:29
Speaker
So what were the emails or the phone calls as you were trying to get Klinsman to speak to you to at least get his perspective? And ultimately he didn't, but what conversations were you having to try to recruit him into this story? For sure. And sort of to build off the question that you just asked is how did you pitch this to people? I mean, for both Klinsman and Arena, Bruce Arena was the other sort of central coaching figure in the story.
00:31:57
Speaker
I mean, we really did just sort of say this is the type of stuff that we have. And it really would, I think for both of them, it would have behooved them to talk to us and give us their perspective because you're never going to let them take charge of your entire narrative. But whenever you do talk to people and get to know what they were thinking at this specific point in time, you do become a little bit more sympathetic to them typically. And that does allow you to guide the story a little bit.
00:32:26
Speaker
that was sort of our pitch to a lot of the people was that A, we're trying to tell as honest and truthful of a story as possible. And then B, in a lot of ways, it would be helpful for you to sort of provide your own sort of voice and perspective on it so that we can kind of understand where you are coming from. And ultimately, neither one of those guys decided to do that. We talked to so many people around them, whether they're assistant coaches or agents or
00:32:54
Speaker
some of the players to really get a sense, I think, of where they were at. But, yeah, it was another one of those processes of got really close at one point. It seemed like Clinton might want to talk to us, but ended up not coming through. And, yeah, that was another one of those no, as I mentioned, even though we certainly tried, I think as hard as we could have.
00:33:16
Speaker
It's what impressed me so much about this story, too. As long as it is in terms of word count, there actually, for something this long, there isn't a whole lot of scenes, your classic building blocks of long narrative. It is a lot of exposition and quotes from people. And that sometimes is, without a lot of scene, is very hard to garner momentum and pull people along. So how did you and Andrew
00:33:46
Speaker
create momentum and pace the story given that there isn't a lot of, you know, action-based scenes. I mean, I think that we both sort of recognize that in our own writing, I mean, neither one of us, I guess I had just finished the book, which is sort of a whole other process, and that was certainly a long endeavor too, but we had never, either one of us, written anything in the range from between 4,000 and 10,000 words. This was kind of
00:34:16
Speaker
new for both of us. And whenever our first draft or two, I mean, it was a lot of exposition. There wasn't nearly enough scene. And so even the sort of limited scenes that ended up getting in there, we just sort of recognized that weakness in our writing. And we're able to sort of pinpoint this is where we need to be able to tell a little bit more of a story. So that was just kind of part of the process for us, I think, was identifying where we could sort of build that narrative and then our editors
00:34:45
Speaker
We're also really good, too, at identifying you need to stretch this scene out a little bit. Here's where you can draw some of that exposition in. So it really did come together as part of a process, but I would say of the writing process, that was the biggest challenge for both of us, just because telling that type of narrative was new for us both.
00:35:07
Speaker
With all the reporting you were doing, all the interviews, are you using a tape recorder and then transcribing yourself or are you a notebook guy strictly? I have a recorder going in the background typically. I usually try to transcribe live as much as I can whenever I'm talking to someone, but I also kind of have the recorder going in the background to make sure that... So go back and listen to everything and make sure
00:35:36
Speaker
I have everything exactly right, but I try as much as possible to pull out quotes here and there that I'm ultimately going to use. And how are you organizing all your notes so you can have the best access to them to then craft your story?
Collaborative Writing Techniques
00:35:54
Speaker
Yeah, we had had a shared Google Doc that sort of everything went into and sort of became multiple different sections and multiple different documents and
00:36:05
Speaker
multiple drafts along the way, but that's how we ended up doing it. And I definitely am thankful to have had someone like Andrew who had worked for PBS on a couple of different documentaries. So he kind of had a template for how you keep everything organized and how you sort of structure all these different things so you don't get too lost in the weeds. And I think that he was really helpful with that. Just sort of like having these outlines and
00:36:31
Speaker
When it came to the structure and the note taking and everything else, we really just kind of did plug things into this shared Google Doc that grew into this massive. Thing with a lot of different alleyways in it, but I think that having some kind of template like you have was definitely helpful for us.
00:36:49
Speaker
And how did you keep things straight as you were then getting really into the thick of this piece? Midway through, you're too far along to turn back and you're still far away from the finish line. So how are you navigating that middle? For sure. And that was definitely a challenge because I think that within our reporting process, it ended up being a bell curve. I guess it would be the opposite of a bell curve in that
00:37:18
Speaker
People seemed really willing to talk about all this in sort of the months after the Trinidad game, when we first started reporting. Cause everybody, the emotions were still high. Everybody was still really upset about what happened. So we got all that and we were like, Oh yeah, like there's enough here to actually go off of. We construct our pitch. We spend a couple months getting that honed in and finding an outlet. And then when we started to double back, a lot of people had kind of shut down. They're like, Oh, well.
00:37:48
Speaker
It's in the past now. We're not sure we want to talk about it. Um, so that's whenever we really had to get used to dealing with rejection and pushing through. Cause we had had sort of an early, early draft that it just, it was then, I mean, like we talked about earlier, you can always tell the holes in reporting and how much works being put in to the really good stories. And there came a point where we tried to draft. It wasn't quite there. And then we really did kind of have to take.
00:38:17
Speaker
another, that was probably sometime around March. And then really April is in the beginning of May, digging down and doubling back with people and doing a lot more calling and reporting to really flesh everything out. So certainly we kind of had to take a pig stock midway through the process to see where we were at. And we kind of did recognize that we were really going to have to double down
00:38:43
Speaker
and go back and sort of chase down a lot of these loose ends that we really wanted to tell that story, right? Did you run into any interactions where people were, they were open to talking early and then as you were doubling back, like you were saying, like they're kind of lukewarm, did they at that point want to rescind everything they said and then you'd have this kind of start over?
00:39:07
Speaker
Uh, thankfully not too much of that. Um, at least now I think that Andrew had a little bit more difficulty that of that with some of the higher ups. But for me with the players that was never, there wasn't a point where they're like, Oh, I take back all of my sentiments from, from last November. It was more of that. Like I said, my piece, I don't want to get any more into this. Gotcha. And so with that, I really just kind of had to figure out who among the guys was willing.
00:39:35
Speaker
to kind of go back and talk a little bit more. I mean, most of the guys that ended up being quoted in there from Evans to Benny Fail, Hobbert to Dax McCarty, three guys who ended up providing a lot of good contact and good seeing that it really did require identifying those handful of guys, convincing them that they should trust us with the story and then sort of building out from there.
00:39:57
Speaker
And in the early drafting phases of this, and, you know, you had your various sections, are you guys emailing the, or either through Google docs or email or emailing each document and then the one person edits and then it keeps going back and forth like a tennis match? Yeah. So we had had actually within like Google docs is sort of an amazing resource when it comes to a lot of this. I don't even know how we would have done this even five years ago.
00:40:25
Speaker
uh, let alone farther back than that when it came to writing and rewriting and all that. Um, but so it's in Google docs, you can just create a document, give your, give both of you access to it. And then the stuff that you worked on shows up in a different color, essentially. So we just kind of had, we had, I think we ended up with seven different versions of drafts version one, where we would both go in and kind of collaborate on that.
00:40:51
Speaker
One of us would say, oh, I think we should go in a different direction with the structure, copy and paste into version two and work from there. So it was just kind of a process of us both having access to these shared documents and sort of collaborating through there, if that makes sense. Given the experience you had with this, is this something you would want to tackle again, either with Andrew or somebody else? For sure. I think that I would, just because again,
00:41:20
Speaker
sort of figuring out exactly how much work goes into doing something like this. It makes it a little bit less daunting looking ahead and sort of trying to map out my next big thing, which I'm not entirely sure what my next project is going to be exactly. But I think that I would definitely do it again. I think that it definitely gave me an awareness that I would want to be careful in identifying who I could work with and who I couldn't.
00:41:48
Speaker
um and just sort of recognizing within some of your friends whose strengths complement each other um like one of my very best friends out here um Jason Jenks he worked for the Seattle Times doing features for them um for a long time and does a lot of good stuff he's writing for the athletic now um on a full-time basis so we sort of are co-writers there in a lot of ways but
00:42:11
Speaker
I identify that when it comes to a project like this, I don't think me and Jason would mesh very well at all, just because we see things so similar and have such a similar skillset and would sort of, sort of probably interview people in roughly the same way. So I think that I would be a lot more careful in identifying what writer I could work with that would sort of bring out each other's strengths in a way that I think that me and Andrew were able to, which is good.
00:42:39
Speaker
And given the amount of work you did on this, and I'm sure for some people who follow soccer with foaming at the mouth, rabbidity, where do you see US soccer going and where does your optimism lie with it?
Future of US Soccer and Following Pence's Work
00:43:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. I think that within the next talent cycle, I think there's a lot there.
00:43:06
Speaker
Um, I think that sort of the age group between 16 and 20 right now, there's a lot of really talented guys. Um, Christian Pulitzer, which was one of the sort of central characters in our story is kind of the, the young up and coming star is still only 19. So there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the next world cup cycle. And then you look ahead to 2026 with the joint hosted world cup.
00:43:34
Speaker
that's been awarded to the US, Mexico, and Canada, and that's only going to ramp up everything in terms of interest and investment and all of that. So I think that there's a lot to be positive about in that sense. But I think that what our story tried to do, more than just pinning the blame on sort of just one person's failings, like a Klinsman or a Seneglati, what we kind of wanted to point out was that the structure within the organization was flawed.
00:44:02
Speaker
power so centralized within U.S. soccer, to a degree that one man, Snoog Alade, the former president, was able to just sort of unilaterally roll with this coach that everyone kind of knew that the wheels were coming off. And if there had been a couple of different voices in that room, maybe it all would have ended differently. So I think that the structure of the organization is flawed. And I don't know that they've done much to address that.
00:44:31
Speaker
Um, they sort of done a little bit of a review. They're adding a new position called the general manager. That's supposed to be a little bit more of an overseer of coaching hires and all that kind of stuff. But I think that structurally the flaws that allowed this failure to take place are still there. And I think they're going to be really resistant to meaningful change because if they didn't change after this massive, massive letdown.
00:44:58
Speaker
They're probably not going to, and they might sort of ultimately hamper the US's ability to go on and become a Germany or a France or a team that can really go and win the World Cup and win a great championship like that. So I think that we're on an upward trajectory. I think that the US national team will end up having a good showing at the next World Cup and maybe shoot for the quarterfinals or ideally the semis in 2026, but
00:45:27
Speaker
with the way that things are going within the Federation, I think that that is about our absolute ceiling, unless they really do start to break up the power structure a little bit. Wow. And lastly, before I let you get out of here, Matt, where can people find you and your work online? Yeah, so I have a Twitter. It's Matt, just twitter.com. And then Matt Pence is my handle, no dots or anything like that. So I sort of
00:45:57
Speaker
try to consolidate everything there. I'm writing regularly for the athletic, sort of the sports news startup. So you'll sort of see a lot of my stuff on there. And then, yeah, and it just kind of bounces all over the place. But definitely Twitter is sort of the best way to kind of dig out all the different stuff I'm working on. And that's probably where I'd sell people to go.
00:46:20
Speaker
Awesome. Well, this was really illuminating stuff and it was awesome to hear you unpack how you and Andrew went about writing the story and then also just hearing your approach to freelancing. So thank you very much for the time and when your book comes out in 2019, we'll have to have you back on and talk a little more shop and talk about the book. Yeah, for sure. And thank you for reaching out to me and for thinking of me and I appreciated it. And for sure, I will definitely double back whenever that comes down the pike here.
00:46:48
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, thanks again, Matt, and we'll be in touch. Yeah. Thank you for listening, everybody. If you dig the show, consider leaving an honest review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend and across your social networks. Reach out on the socials. If you have questions, concerns, or feedback, you can email me too. Also.
00:47:14
Speaker
If you head over to BrendanOmera.com, not only will you find show notes for every episode of this podcast, but you can sign up for the ever-growing monthly reading list newsletter, where I share my book recommendations for the month, as well as what you might have missed from the world of the podcast. Once a month, no spam. Can't beat it. Have a CNF and great week, friends. See ya!