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From Little Things, Big Creatures Grow – Little Creatures at 25
342 Plays3 days ago
“Little Creatures is iconic, and I think we'll always have that iconic status.”
Ask people who’ve been working in, or merely enjoying the delights of, the Aussie beer world for a decade or more which beers turned them onto craft beer in the first place, and if any beer is referenced more than Little Creatures Pale Ale we’d be surprised, if not amazed.
Little wonder then that Russell Gosling, head brewer at the brewery he joined two decades ago, uses the word “iconic” in this episode – timed to coincide with the Freo-based operation’s 25th anniversary. The impact of that beer, and indeed the the Little Creatures approach to hospitality, has been game-changing – arguably only Stone & Wood’s Pacific Ale has come close since.
Russell joined us from Freo amid the “chaos” as a major overhaul of the brewery’s original site nears completion – at the same time as a Little Creatures brewpub opens in Perth’s Elizabeth Quay.
As well as discussing the challenges of stewarding Little Creatures Pale Ale through the years, we look back to the brewery’s earlier days, its evolution – half of which has been as part of Lion, his favourite beers – including some that never took off, recent projects involving the regen agriculture space, and the excitement that came with working amid a group of pioneers aiming to change beer culture in Australia.
We also head back in time pre-Creatures to Russell’s earlier days as a brewer in the UK, where he notched up spells at marquee breweries such as Harvey’s, Fuller’s, and his hometown heroes Everards.
With Will on holiday, James was joined by Guy Southern, one of our WA contributors and a man with his fingers in pretty much every beer-flavoured pie in the state. He provides some local context on the way Little Creatures has influenced so much and so many, as well as chatting about this week's other stories on the main Crafty site: a look at the growing importance of events to beer venues; the opening of 27 South's taproom in Brisbane; and soon-to-open Melbourne bar Donny's.
If you enjoy the show, please like, subscribe, rate and review.
Start of segments:- 15:25 – Russell Gosling Part 1
- 35:51 – Russell Gosling Part 2
To find out more about featuring on The Crafty Pint Podcast or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact craig@craftypint.com.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction & Host Update
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Crafty Pint Podcast. It's the last of our regular programming for the year. um And I'm here with without Will this week. Will's currently on holiday, touring around SA, visiting wineries and breweries en route to wedding. so I have a bit of a special guest host for the intro this week and probably a little bit of a different format for the the intro this week.
Celebrating Little Creatures' Milestone
00:00:29
Speaker
um And that's because the main guest is Russell godle Gosling. head brewer at Little Creatures. He's on because ah Little Creatures just been marking twenty their 25th anniversary. um And I thought it'll be really good to get some context from WA. mean, I guess Little Creatures has very much been part of Big Beer since Lion took over full ownership um or well over a decade ago now. There's a lot of work been going on there that we discuss in the chat. But I think it's fair to say well whatever your feelings are on independence, you know, multinational beer, whatever, um Little Creatures Pale Ale, its influence on the modern craft beer community um is significant. However, you look at it, um arguably, I'd say the only beer that's had similar impact since then would be Stonewood Pacific Ale. And I think um if you're in the WA beer scene, that impact has been even more significant as well. So it gives me great pleasure to welcome as my guest host this week, um our longstanding WA based writer Guy Southern, also retailer, educator, reigning Australian's International Beer Award Best Media Trophy holder.
Guest Host & WA Beer Community
00:01:31
Speaker
um Just to give us a little bit of context and also a view of his magnificent Movember moustache. Guy, how are you? Hello, James. Doing pretty well. And this has come along nicely, actually. Yeah.
00:01:43
Speaker
um Yeah, i thought thanks Green to come on for a chat. um I just thought, you know, there are a few people with fingers in as many pies in the WA beer scene as yourself. I see you've even, you know, done a bit of decoration for those watching on YouTube in the background with, you know, some classic WA beer memorabilia. But um yeah, thought it'd be really good to sort of get your your take, especially as someone, you you know, you did that that history of WA beer for and the State Library um not too long ago.
Little Creatures' Role in Craft Beer Evolution
00:02:10
Speaker
Just, you know, to give us some idea, i guess, of where Little Creatures, whether it's Pale Ale or where it's the business itself, sort sits within the WA beer community, the WA beer psyche, I guess.
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, look, no no doubt it's iconic. And for many people, Little Creatures Pale Ale is an epiphany beer. um I often talk about... The influence not only being the liquid, but the the hospitality side of things and its influence on Australian, the the way we enjoy each other's company. It can be traced back to a little crocodile farm in the year 2000s. A little bit before that. So Howard, Howard Kearns, Nick Tromboli and Phil Sexton have worked together at Matilda Bay um and in the 90s launched Redback Wheat Beer. so
00:02:54
Speaker
Those of you who are deriding, including myself deriding wheat beers and their lack of commercial viability that did have a moment in time in Australian beer culture. um But around 99, they got together after trying to get a Starbucks franchise into Australia and they they they met with the Starbucks people in Seattle and Howard tells a great story of,
00:03:15
Speaker
them sitting together in ah in ah in a bar drinking some beers. And I think it actually was here at Nevada Pale Ale. And they're just about to sign the contract. But Starbucks basically said, you can have this for Australia.
00:03:29
Speaker
And Nick Tromboli got up and said, I'm not doing it. It's not happening. and there And the other guys looked at each other and went, what do you mean? We've spent months working on this. We've flown to and fro, blah, blah. blah And he goes, ah I just don't want to work for anyone else. We've got...
00:03:45
Speaker
we've got more ability to do something amazing for ourselves. And shortly thereafter, or a few years thereafter, they launched Little Creatures in Fremantle, which was an old crocodile farm. And I actually remember the old cro crocodile farm down in ah on the waterfront there and in Frio.
00:04:03
Speaker
And remember Little Creatures opening and they launched with the Pale Ale at that point in time known as Live, which quickly changed to Pale because they had to give it some sort of sense of what this beer was because there really was nothing else like it at that time.
00:04:19
Speaker
They were shipping whole hopcone flowers from the States, getting them through customs somehow to put into the beer and making a beer, which for the Australian palate back then, which was pretty well-built drenched in light lagers and that kind of thing was floral, bitter, wildly out there. And that sparked a revolution in Australian beer.
00:04:45
Speaker
and And I guess, you know, that be people all across the country, certainly many people who've started breweries over the last sort of 15 years who would cite Little Creatures Pale as a game changer for them. Often it's, you know, I did a road trip through Belgium or I went to the UK or I went to the US, but Creatures typically comes in there somewhere. um But I think, you know, especially WA, it feels like, you know, they're sort of the the tentacles and the and the and the impact they've had would be even greater than it has been elsewhere.
00:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Look, there's there's probably two elements to to my response here. The first, i talk a lot about the hospitality side of things. So Nick Tromboli's background was hospitality, um running like dome cafes over here and a bunch of other things. So they really understood that if you want to bring people into beer, you need to have a great hospitality offering.
00:05:33
Speaker
So they employed people from around Frio. So if you went there, you were you were drenched in free metal. And as long as you're a good operator, you could you could work at Little Creatures Frio. And probably the thing that changed there was back then you had to wear a shirt and tie to get into a nightclub, right? And and black shoes. But they were like, you if you if you do a great job and you're a good person, you can come on the team. So yeah you were trying a new beer ah with someone serving you that had dreadlocks on and no name badges, that kind of thing. So the ripples of that idea
00:06:07
Speaker
literally changed Australian hospitality. it It flowed outwards from there and this more casual approach to how we eat and drink flowed outwards because essentially you either have a pub or a fine diner or a winery with white tablecloths.
00:06:25
Speaker
Second to that, you end up with an opportunity for people to learn how to brew and do it in a really unique environment. And if you look at the stuff behind me, there's yeah the people that went through Little Creatures have gone on to shape Australian beer in some way or another. You know, you you're talking about Miles Hull, who's had lots of hospitality. He's figures in lots of hospitality hospitality ventures.
00:06:50
Speaker
He was their first general manager. Nick Dispesis went from Little Creatures to go on to Four Pines and then back to Eagle Bay to launch that.
00:07:01
Speaker
you the list just goes on. yeah Jane, Jane Lewis, it just, an amazing list. um Aaron Heary, Gage Rhodes, got a few of the Gage things behind us here. So as far as like a,
00:07:16
Speaker
don't know, just like a spark, you know, like that's literally why Little Creatures is so important. And then from then, obviously the decade rolls on, they sell for 352 million or something in 2012 to Lion.
00:07:30
Speaker
um But off the back of that, they also then open Melbourne in... 2008, Hong Kong, San Francisco, London. And now we see this month, Elizabeth Key in Perth on Perth's waterfront precinct there, a little venue there opening as a little creatures venue.
00:07:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's been it's been quite quite the story. um And Russ and fills in a lot of the other elements of that as well, um as well as you know going into his journey in
Creative Engagement in Craft Beer Venues
00:07:59
Speaker
beer. He's worked some fine breweries in the UK before making his way over this way. um And I guess on the events side of things, so tying in into another article we've run this week that we'll include in the show notes, um I guess it's something that we'll end up writing, but came off the back of a few conversations having, you know, with yourself, with myself, with other brewery owners and and just noticing how, um you know, a lot of venues, especially brewery venues now are getting very creative with their events. um And I guess it's a way of pulling people through the door, you know, it's quite often certainly saying how, Much harder it's been to get people off the couch, you know, post pandemic, but also, you know, cost of going out, you know, has gone up and, and so looking at that side of things. And i think um while we haven't spoken to anyone in WA for this article, like, you know, we've had conversations about, you know, a number of WA beer venues have been picking up major awards, you know, in the wider hospitality scene, like beating off, I guess what you'd call more traditional um venues. You know, you were talking about fat Brew Club had that, you know, huge, um
00:08:59
Speaker
huge success with the recent three day wrestling event for which they made some beers, but just looking at sort of the the businesses that are picking up some major hospital awards are actually frequently breweries now or beer venues.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And and mentioning, you know, fat, I was talking to Trav, um, the co-founder general manager this week. And he goes, you know, it's it's it's funny, you know, it's not why, it's not necessarily the motivator is to get people in the door. They just like having fun ultimately.
00:09:26
Speaker
But, and as as you can attest, having dressed up as an Oompa Loompa this year. um But the comment that lasted with me from that conversation was, you know, um people come for the experience, they stay for the beer. Mm-hmm.
00:09:40
Speaker
And that just stuck with me. it doesn't matter what you do. And as long as you know who you are, what you do and who you do it for, that's the most important thing. And I think if there's people that are maybe floundering or not sure of where they're going at the moment, making sure that you've got a really good and consistent, um,
00:09:59
Speaker
experience for, for punches, be at food, be at strongman competitions, be it, you know, trap had an air guitar competition this year, you know, like stuff like that. It's just, it's not about, uh, algorithm baiting. It's about people having fun. And Hamish talks about it for, um,
00:10:16
Speaker
When I talked to him about the Burrswood opening, he goes, we want they took out most of the the TV screens in this huge venue, 500-plus capacity venue in Burrswood.
00:10:27
Speaker
And he goes, we want people to socialize. We want them to turn off their phone. they want We want people to be in the space and relate to each other and have a good time with the people in the venue and have a really good experience.
00:10:39
Speaker
So i don't think it's... I don't think that's going anywhere. I think if anything, it's such a good thing for beer because for so many years, the focus has been about hops. You know, now we're starting to talk about, did I have fun? Does doesn' it relate to something? Am I bringing a different audience in, be it wrestling, be a heavy metal show at Seasonal Brewing Co or whatever it is?
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's it's a real positive for beer. Yeah, yeah no I guess it's a different sort of aspect of the events space. you know some of the bigger events have fallen by the wayside or had to adapt. ah and I think you know on this smaller scale, you know it's becoming potentially more vibrant. you know and and and The article goes into deep you know a bit of detail about how people do balance their calendars. You can't just have big events the whole time. you know It's too much work or you can put off your regular punters if they feel like they're being pushed out the venue, but you can balance it you know with... with these kinds of things. So um yeah, it'd be interesting to see how how that develops, but certainly the the experience side of craft beer has become so much more key, I think in, in, in recent times. So yeah, it's it's a good read. We'll include that in the show notes. um
00:11:45
Speaker
Guy, we'll see you again when we get to the WA year in beer, offering more of your wonderful insights alongside Jono Outred um for now, before we get to the.
00:11:56
Speaker
Also a cricket commentator at the moment as well. ah i saw I saw, yeah, he popped up. I have to say, actually, it's just as well we chatted to Russ when we did. It was just before the Perth test. And despite my accent, and I have all Scottish blood. So I was quite happy to see Basbal get stuffed. and But I think, you know, about having a chat to Russ, who is very much English before before the test, was probably a good thing. But yeah, so Jono, he got picked up by the the TV coming out of the stadium. Was that right? Yeah, just just a little Vox Pop thing, walking out and, you know, looking...
00:12:27
Speaker
With his Nanup Tigers t-shirt, a cricket club he plays for in a a tiny country town about two and a half hours south of Perth. Nanup Tigers represent t-shirt on, commenting on on the the test. Well, you'd hardly call it a test for two days, but yeah, quite tight. Well, I think the fact he has quite a travmo probably caught the caught the eye of the of the camera crew as well. um But yes, we'll see you and Jono when we get around to the WA year in beer. A couple of other articles you ran on the website this year this week, sorry, we'll include in the show notes. One on Donny's, which is new venue opening in mel Melbourne. A couple of very familiar faces to many on the East Coast behind that. Chris Miles, who's worked in, I guess, hospital, retail, um everywhere from sort of Brisbane down to Hobart, is now back in Melbourne. and Xavier Burns, who's held a number of roles as well. So their bar and eatery opens soon. So we'll have a chat to them. um And also something on 27 South, which I guess a of drinkers in Brisbane will know, 27 South Brewing. They've been operating, um that's what they call a gypsy operation for about five years now, finally opening a tap room this Friday. So I had a chat to Nick, one of the founders there. So um yeah, you know a couple of positive things leading into summer, a couple of new openings. Yeah.
00:13:41
Speaker
Talking of positive things, if you'd like to help us celebrate the country's breweries, we're always looking for nominations for our Bluestone Yeast Brewery of the Month um campaign so that you can nominate your favorite breweries at craftypint.com slash bluestone. And also if there's anyone out there that's been doing something wonderful in beer or helped you out at your brewery or your venue, whatever it might be.
00:14:01
Speaker
We have our Have You Done a Rallings celebration of good beer citizens at craftypint.com slash Rallings. Now, I don't normally do the bit about like and subscribe, which normally goes to Will. Guy, would you like to take on that little bit before we get to the main interview and take tape Will's slot?
00:14:16
Speaker
but It's so so much pressure, James. so I just pointed at the screen to go like and subscribe like that. and is that what happens? Yeah. I guess we can go with that. So yeah, like and subscribe. and Thank you for joining us, Guy. And after a break, enjoy the show. Cheers.
00:14:30
Speaker
Cheers. Attention Brewers! Entries for the Royal Queensland Beer Awards supported by King Street and the Star Brisbane are now open. These prestigious awards recognise and celebrate the best beers in Australia.
00:14:43
Speaker
Brewers, it's an amazing opportunity to see where your beers stack up against your peers with helpful feedback provided by expert judges on every beer you enter. And if your beer is selected as the Grand Champion, you'll win a $5,000 line bursary aimed at furthering your own knowledge and advancing the Australian beer industry.
00:15:01
Speaker
All entrants also get the chance to network and mingle with fellow brewers and industry leaders at the awards presentation, an evening you won't want to miss. So what are you waiting for? Enter the Royal Queensland Beer Awards today at rqa.com.au. That's rqa.com.au.
Redevelopment of Little Creatures' Venue
00:15:18
Speaker
Submit nine beers and get 10% off all additional entries.
00:15:26
Speaker
Russ, thank you so much for joining us in the Crafty Pint podcast. My pleasure. nice to chat. Well, it's a big year, 25 years of Little Creatures, and you've been there for a very healthy chunk of that. But to start with the brewery at first, how's it sort of feel and what's the celebration at Creatures?
00:15:44
Speaker
Yes, so we're 25 years. We're all excited about that. um We're in the um progress of redeveloping the old Lombardo's building behind the brewery into the new hospitality venue. So hospitality team have exited the great hall, which you will all know and love. Um, and we're revamping the old space behind the brewery. So it's, um, you might not know it, but it's, it's a building that was built for the America's cup.
00:16:14
Speaker
Um, and we've gone in there and we've gutted it all out. It's now big, open sort of communal sort of coastal, um venue that's right on the harbour with harbour views and we're in them in there at the moment just getting it ready for for opening which is really exciting.
00:16:35
Speaker
Which has been pushed back a few weeks, so I'm assuming it's been fairly chaotic, it sounds like it's a fairly major major undertaking? Yes, its major undertaking, lots of chaos, lots of disruption, um people everywhere. And suppliers going into administration, causingal causing headache typhoons. Well, you should have paid the bills.
00:16:59
Speaker
Yeah, we have the typhoon as well, which has disrupted um supply of some material as well. Yeah, it's just the usual chaos that everyone faces. But we're getting there, making a lot of progress looking good.
00:17:10
Speaker
and is it Have you been impacted you and the brewing team been impacted sort of in your day-to-day or have you been able to sort of you know bunker down and let the Renaults go on around you?
00:17:22
Speaker
Well, I'd like to say we've bunkered down and removed the noise and chaos and just concentrated on what we need to do which in the main we have. But honestly, there's been a massive amount of disruption, lots of trades we've got.
00:17:40
Speaker
um the city of Fremantle digging up the road to relay new cables, power cables and it's just been madness.
00:17:52
Speaker
It's all good fun. Excellent. you really If anyone is watching is isn't watching this on YouTube, Russ's face is saying it very much hasn't been a lot of fun. But i guess I guess there is light at the end of the tunnel now. And I guess with the new hospice thing, does it feel sort of distinctly creatures? If people have been to the Great Hall, i have an idea of what it was like there. Or has there been a bit of refresh of the whole experience of coming to the the spiritual home?
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, look, i would say look the the words that they are telling me is it's it's it's got a raw coastal vibe. Okay. Now you can define that as you will.
00:18:27
Speaker
um But no, it's it's it's a big open communal space, got lots of little multi-experience venues in it. It's got two floors. It's right on the water. um Yeah, it's it's sort of, it's got the elements of the old place, but just brought it up to date little bit. Fair enough. It's Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:51
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not the only, ah I guess, new project the Creatures team's been working on, like Elizabeth Key. Is it a brew pub there or just ah a tap room? What's the story there? Because, ah I mean, um was it always planned that you'd open these two, you know, i guess, revamp and then a new place at the same time? or is it just the way things have come together? It's the way things have come together, yeah.
00:19:11
Speaker
So we... Do you do you know the Canfield? yep Yeah, yeah. I know the Canfield. Formerly the home of Bevy when Andy Skade was there, yeah. That's right. So when... um When Skade departed, um, Jess Curtin went in one of my brewers and and that's now a little creatures, uh, brewery. And that's where we do all our innovation and MPD work. So the, one of the issues we've got is with a hundred hectolitic brew house at Freo, um, got very limited capability to do small batch stuff. So that's a 12 heck little brew kit. So, um, you know, 20 kegs. So, um,
00:19:51
Speaker
that's where we're doing sort of all our MPD, but that, that venue is, is owned and operated by the three pound group and they've sort of entered a partnership it with us and they're opening a venue in Elizabeth key, right on the water as well. So that's going to be a more sort of crafty focused venue. um And again, all the, all the special,
00:20:17
Speaker
different stuff is all coming out of the little brewery at the Canfield there as well. So, and people that don't know Perth, Elizabeth Quay is a pretty prominent spot. you want also to give us a bit of insight into, you know, where and what Elizabeth Quay is?
00:20:31
Speaker
Yeah. Elizabeth Quay is a sort of um CBD area right on the Swan River, which has been um revamped recently. So lots of hotels, hospitality venues, et cetera, going in there. So, It's quite an exciting addition to to the CBD, which is good.
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah, I was there a couple of years ago and ah yeah all that construction was going on and you could just tell it was in the middle of this like great revitalisation and and sort of it's a beautiful spot, ah part of the city too. Oh, it's lovely, isn't it? Yeah, fantastic area.
00:21:05
Speaker
Not quite open in time for the Barmy Army though. you've You've missed out on their millions of dollars in beer money. Well, they'll but that'll all be at the campfelter. Okay, fair. That's a very true, actually. Yeah, good point. They'll be queuing up already for tomorrow. well Exactly, yeah.
00:21:23
Speaker
Well, luckily, they've come down. There's been quite a few coming down into Frio. You can see them wandering around. Yeah. um the Sort of the the English contingent over, and then they'll be in the CBD today, tomorrow, obviously. And I guess but for you personally, having been there for, you know, I guess 80% of Little Creatures' life, how does it feel, feel on you know, on a personal level to, have you know, be ticking over 25?
The Brewing Journey of Russell Gosling
00:21:47
Speaker
You know, you you worked a number of breweries beforehand, but this has been, I guess, you know, your life's work to date. So how does it feel to be reaching this milestone or is it just another day, get some more beer out?
00:21:57
Speaker
um Oh, there's a bit of that, James. You know, um you know, brewing's, you know, day to day, we're doing we're doing what we need to do to deliver. Um, but you know, you sometimes just sit back with a pale ale and reflect on your 20 years and, um, you know, it's been, you know, this is the seventh brewery I've worked at, but it's the, the, you know, the longest one I've worked at. it's been a, ah I've, I've just loved working here. Great people, great product and great place. Um,
00:22:33
Speaker
And constant change, which has kept me engaged and stimulated while me and the team. um And, you know, it's a great group of people trying to do the right thing.
00:22:45
Speaker
lot of energy, a lot of vibrancy. um And I just really enjoy coming to work every day. It's just fantastic. and i was just thinking, one of our previous guests on the podcast was Jack Viner, who's the head brewer at Moo Brew. And we were saying how it's quite remarkable that they've only had three head brewers over 20 years. But I'm guessing if you stepped into Alex Troncozo's shoes, has it just been the two of you at the helm, you know, in some ways, creatures from from day dot?
00:23:12
Speaker
Yeah, look, I mean, there was a few people at the start. um I joined the business and Simon Bretherton was here with Alex. Simon left and then it was me and Alex for quite a number of years. Alex departed to the UK and I've just been holding the fort with my team for some time. But unfortunately, I've got a fantastic team here.
00:23:35
Speaker
um The site leadership team has been here, most of them for 10, 15, 20 years. Heary, my right-hand man, and he's been here for 24 years. So we've got a really strong team have been here for a long time. Know the brewery inside out. may make make Make my life complete. well What about the um you know the people that have been part of it? I mean, if you if you look across the country, but just WA in particular, like the number of Creatures alumni that are everywhere, that must um feel pretty special as well.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's great. with that There's a lot of people that have come through the brewery, we're We're a great place to to learn. um You know, and it's um mean it's not me that that does the teaching, it's my team, but it's a great place to come, learn your trade, and then, you know, go go on your own adventure within the industry. And it's um it's it's fantastic to to see the number of great people that have come through and have gone on to do great things out there. and
00:24:40
Speaker
um you know, it's very, it's rewarding, you know, it's good. and And I guess with Creatures, it's probably not just the people that have come through the brewery or, you know, the hospice side of things and got on to do things, but I guess and the legacy of Creatures Pale or Live as it was in you know and in the in the early days and how many, you know, if you, I've done, you know, events with, smaller brewery teams for our, you know, when I've been in WA in the past and often we'll say, ah let's, let's get it in, you know, beer at the start or a couple of beers that actually got you started on your journey before we get to your stuff. And without fail, Creatures Pale will be the first beer that comes out. Um, in fact, we, did we we, we put it out blinded at event with a Reese from Evil Megacourt recently, and people assumed it was something more contemporary, which I guess you'll be pleased to hear like that, you know, you hear the the noises, the noises around, oh, you know, it's not what it used to be, but
00:25:30
Speaker
took a few show of hands before people actually, you know, realised what it was we'd put out as the first beer. But i mean, does that sort of put a bit of, you feel a bit of pressure on the brewing team knowing that, you know, you're responsible for, you know, carrying on the legacy of this, you know this beer that has changed so many people's perceptions and in its own way, I guess, even defined what craft beer in Australia looks like?
00:25:50
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose that heritage does create some pressure, um but we've got the process and everything. down pat here. I thought think the biggest challenge really is pale is extremely difficult to make. Leaf hop, unpasteurised, secondary conditioning. you know there's There's a suite of processing systems which behind the scenes quite complex in order to make that work. so the The challenge I actually find is being the gatekeeper.
00:26:23
Speaker
People ask you, why do you do it like that? um Why does it have to be done like that? And so I tend to have to sort of recycle through those challenges and questions, which keep us honest, I think. But um I think there's more, that that's probably the greater sort of challenge than actually making it because we've got everything sort of sorted in that space.
00:26:49
Speaker
Has there been any sort of consideration at times going, why are we doing it just all you know leaf hops? you know Could we not just substitute some of this in that would give us a bit more? Because I'm assuming you're having to really weigh up you know almost every every harvest and batch that comes in going, oh, you know because it's not... You know, it's not going to be put into pellets where it's all been, you know, sort of, you know, trying to standardize whatever. So there'll be all those challenges every year. Has there ever been a time going, look, if we just put 10% of this in and do this, it's going to be fine. No one's going to notice. Or is it like, no, this is this is the holy grail of WA craft beer. We must not fuck this up. That is basically my position.
00:27:25
Speaker
Okay. I just couldn't live with it myself if if if we ever compromised. Mm-hmm. that So I won't do it.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah. Simple as that. um Is that sort of day one when it someone new comes into the brewery, it's like, here here are the 10 commandments or whatever it is. Basically, yeah. Read the commandments, sign a bit of paper at the bottom.
00:27:51
Speaker
Don't ask any questions. Think about all these advanced hot products that are around though, though that weren't around 20 or 25 years ago. that There would be so much more you could potentially play with if you wanted to, but Yeah, um and we do play with those things, Will. You know, um we're constantly trialling stuff.
00:28:13
Speaker
but we But we do our experiments and we do our learning with those new materials to look at new SKUs that we're going to bring forward, not not to p play around with little creatures, pale ale. I don't know a lot.
00:28:30
Speaker
Rightly or wrongly, that's my approach, you know. Yeah. yeah I think you know it is one of those things that probably is it is so iconic and it it holds such a special place that I think that probably is his the right way to go. mean i guess in terms of new beers, the 25th anniversary, um anything planned to you know to mark mark the 25th anniversary? Yeah, we've made a celebration now. We've partnered with Voyager. Our friends at Voyager, we've done a bit of work with Voyager. So it's all Voyager malt. of different malts.
00:29:04
Speaker
It's basically a strong pale ale. So it's it's kind of kind of looking at the DNA of Little Creatures Pale Ale and then sort of bringing it forward. um So we're looking forward to enjoying one of those. Exorcist, be in town.
00:29:20
Speaker
Tapped on the 11th of December. be tapped on the 11th of December. That's right. next I keep getting invites to to come to the opening, but having spent a couple of months in WA during the year, I can't haven't got the budget or the all the brownie points to head back over so so soon. So we'll have to make sure someone sends us ah sends us a four-pack or something.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I'll send you a photo. How's that? You view with a big smile on your face. That's right. Take a gulp. Okay, done. As long as you sign the photo. Okay. um And I guess that's sort outside of, you know, just creatures pale, but I guess Little Creatures itself in terms of not just the, I guess, the way it changed beer culture in WA especially, but then further afield, but even hospitality, you know, the hospitality offering that was um driven, I guess it happened to extent with Matilda Bay beforehand, but then with creatures with the the Great Hall. um You know, do you see that sort of legacy out there, um you know, on ah on a wider scale? I so i know certainly...
00:30:17
Speaker
creatures is sort of held in a you know a certain position by anyone in the beer industry in australia but in wa i think creatures is still such a huge supporter of the wider scene you know um independent and otherwise it just seems to be so so much you know um i guess ined infused into the entire beer community out there yeah you can see its influence everywhere um which is makes you quite proud and um you know you can well Wherever you go, you can see little tiny bits that of of of of of sort of where creatures have influenced the direction that that people have taken. So no, it's good. I mean, Little Creatures is iconic.
00:30:59
Speaker
um And I think we'll always have that sort of iconic status. ah don't know whether that answers your question, but...
00:31:09
Speaker
But but has it been has it been has it been a challenge to sort of maintain that? I guess, you you know, there's been so many changes over the last 25 years. There's been obviously, you know, the acquisition by Lyon. There's been, you know, I guess so many ups and downs and and sideways steps in craft beer. And, you know, what what's old is new again now. Like, is you know, has there been times when you're like, oh you know, is Creatures...
00:31:32
Speaker
Drifting from relevance, how do we maintain it? Does that not really bother you? you know Is it more a case of going, just we're we're just happy that yeah know the quality's there or have you? Yeah, well, that's my job really is just to make sure that we're delivering the quality that we need to uphold our reputation in the market. um Yeah, there's been an awful lot of change in the 20 years. um you know And we've tried to experiment with different things and release different products um and trying to maintain some relevance, I think.
00:32:09
Speaker
But it's very fluid. it's There's a lot of disruption in the market. There's a lot of entrepreneurs and it's all it's just an amazing period of time, really.
00:32:19
Speaker
um Pre coming here, it was, you know the you know, you recall, you know, that' one NPD a year, which is pretty much what everyone was doing. And then all of a sudden it's just, boof um But it's a lot of energy, a lot of um lot of good people in the craft industry trying to do the right thing, or trying to explore, trying to learn, trying to understand. It's it's been an exciting time. it works We fundamentally just um focus on trying to deliver the great product that we can. That's really me and my team's focus.
00:32:57
Speaker
And in terms of the MPD, how do you see it? Like you've obviously got this smaller brewery up and running now. Like are there any particular focuses or you're just enjoying having, you know, and the team's enjoying having a bit more flexibility to play and experiment? but Where's that sort of sit within the brew team?
00:33:14
Speaker
Yeah, so we've got the big brew kit and then for a number of years we've had a small kit which we called the sandpit which was in the brew house bar in the venue where the brewers could play but the problem with that is you can only produce one keg on that on that kit and then you've got a whole group of stakeholders within the business who want more than one keg so the the venue here wants something there's a beer festival they want something and all of a sudden you end up um
00:33:49
Speaker
not being able to deliver what the stakeholders want. So now we've got the brewery at the Canfield where we can do, you know, 20 or 40 kegs of of batches. Then we can really start to provide those stakeholders with what they need. So then that gives us the opportunity to explore and innovate with ah with greater purpose, I think, to be perfectly honest. um So, yeah, the team are enjoying...
00:34:18
Speaker
spending time there and doing what they do best. Great. Now, we'll take a short break now. I'd love to come back and hear more about your sort of career in beer, sort of pre and coming to Creatures and maybe reflect on some of the beers you've enjoyed making over the years and and the wider industry. So we'll take a short break and see you see in a bit.
00:34:40
Speaker
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00:35:52
Speaker
Welcome back. Now, Russ, eagle-eared listeners may have spotted a bit of an accent coming their way. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your career in brewing before you made it to Creatures and Australia?
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah, okay Well, I'm from the UK, as you could probably gather. I'm from Leicester in England. um Yeah, i so I started brewing in the UK. That's a strange start in the industry in that um I did a... um undergraduate degree in cell and molecular biology.
00:36:24
Speaker
And I did a module called fermentation studies with a lady called Catherine Smart, who's now professor of brewing at the University of Nottingham. And um we actually went around a brewery and as part of that module. And as soon as I came out of that brewery, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.
00:36:47
Speaker
Oh, so it wasn't something you considered beforehand? it was literally but yeah I mean, I'd considered beer because I'd drank a lot of it, but um it was in the final year of the degree and I'd been sort of doing some mental gymnastics around what do ah what do what am I going to do? And I just didn't want to work in a lab, just doing research and all that sort of stuff.
00:37:12
Speaker
And then went around this brewery and I just thought, that is exactly what I want to do I want to utilise my science and learning to to make a product that I enjoy. um So I went to see Catherine and I said, look, I want to be a brewer. And she said, if you want to be a brewer, you need to go to Harriet Water University. And she wrote down Graeme Stewart's number on i um a piece of paper. And I phoned him up.
00:37:39
Speaker
and his EA was at lunch. And so I actually spoke to professor Graham Stewart and he sent me a ah prospectus, which this is how old I am. The prospectus was a four paper printed and stapled together in the middle.
00:37:55
Speaker
And it just listed all the modules that make up the brewing degree. And I just thought, that's fantastic. So, I thought that's what I want to do. So I applied, got accepted, and then I deferred it for a year and got a one-year pupillage at Harvey's in Lewis and spent a year in Lewis learning how to brew beer, basically, at that fine brewery. And was that hands-on? Were you responsible for putting out some of the best best bidder in the country? Yeah, yeah. So the job was third brewer. So um basically that meant I had to
00:38:33
Speaker
start at 5am, mash in, and then stay until we'd ran worts into the fermenter and declared the brew and and wrapped up and then departed to the tap house for a beer. So that was that was my sort of day-to-day for a whole year, that actually hands-on learning how to brew in that particular brewery, and and I loved it.
00:38:56
Speaker
Absolutely loved it It was fantastic. And for people who don't know Harvey's, can you give us some them so so some sort of context as to, I guess, how that brewery and how their their beers are viewed in the you know in the British, the English beer scene?
00:39:10
Speaker
Yeah, so it's, I can't remember the year it was built, but yeah you'd be talking you'd be looking at sort of 1800s. It's a William Bradford brewery.
00:39:24
Speaker
in um the county town of Lewis in Sussex, small little town with a massive brewery, um right on the river.
00:39:35
Speaker
um Very old, very traditional. um And again, a great place to learn. Fantastic history. um All that sort of historical stuff is what I like.
00:39:51
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And, you know, that brewery has such esteem in the UK, you know, it's up there with Timothy Taylor and and all the other sort of great regional breweries that have been around for a very long time.
00:40:08
Speaker
And it's got a very, very high reputation for the quality beer that its it makes. But like all the regionals in in the UK, you know, they they only sort of,
00:40:22
Speaker
historically 50 or 70 mile radius of the breweries is as far as they ever went and and so if you if you want to explore those beers you have to go down to visit the brewery in that area in order to to to to sort of um learn about the brewery and the products it makes so um it was it was a great place place to learn great place to live i love lewis i met my wife there um and i just really enjoyed it and then went up to up to edinburgh to do the postgraduate degree in brewing and distilling science, which I did for a year as well. loved Edinburgh, it great city, lots of brewing history there as well.
00:41:02
Speaker
um yeah hu Not only did I... and um One of the these ah reasons I really enjoyed that course is, yes, I was learning about brewing, but the other people on the course, but we're all pretty much international students. So we had guys from FS in Turkey, guy from Uganda, a couple from Kenya, a couple from the US, Canada, a couple of guys from Japan.
00:41:32
Speaker
and it was a real international group um with lots of, they all had experience in their own breweries. um And it was really good.
00:41:44
Speaker
not only to to learn the the course content, but then actually sort of interact with these brewers from all over the world, talking about how they do things and their approach to things and their philosophy on brewing as well. So ah I loved it.
00:42:01
Speaker
And then I left there and went to Usher's of Trowbridge. I worked there for three years. That was ah that was the yeah UK's largest regional at the time, but that was really contract brewing.
00:42:14
Speaker
So Miller Genuine Draft, Stein Lager, Amstel, Fra Heineken, et cetera. But I guess giving you an insight into making those sort of styles of beer, having i great yeah i started out doing you know Cascale, Real Ale.
00:42:28
Speaker
That's right. And then was closed and went to Fuller's, which another great brewery on the River Thames in London with a lot of history, make a lot of fantastic products. And I love working there as well.
00:42:42
Speaker
um you It sounds like you've had a fairly gilded career. everywhere everywhere Everywhere you've gone, you've loved it. It's also no wonder you won't let anyone touch Little Creatures Pale Ale too. When you spend all this time in history, you you know what you've got to stick to. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Fell in love with Fuller's ESB, London Pride.
00:43:03
Speaker
um And I enjoyed living in London as well, but it's not, for me, it's not somewhere I could have lived for a long time. but It was good for a couple of years, really got, into London life um and obviously learning the Fuller's approach to making beer and im working in that iconic brewery as well.
00:43:25
Speaker
And then I went to Thomas Hardy in Dorchester and Thomas Hardy in Tivitana. That's completely different landscape. That was contract brewing and packaging, but mainly ah RTDs. So I spent a lot of time making Smirnoff Ice, Bacardi Breezes,
00:43:41
Speaker
VK, Kirk, all those big RTD brands that took off. um And that was interesting as well, because you you you're you're a co-packer, so you're making them for someone else, and that was a whole all different learning. And um quite enjoyable as well, but a completely different kettle of fish.
00:44:03
Speaker
was it Wasn't that the era of the Turbo Shandy as well, wasn't it, back in the UK? The lager and Smirnoff ice mix or something? Or the Turbo Shandy, if you had it with Guinness? There's certain things we should not discuss, James, and that's one of them. ah moving so Moving swiftly on. school yeah And then I went to work at Everard in Leicester, which is my hometown, and another great brewery. um And I thoroughly enjoyed working Everard. It was a really good business to work for. and Great product again. Really good people.
00:44:32
Speaker
uh i don't think that i think thing that ever is it probably ties into what you're saying about harvey's as well like once you hit leicestershire and you went to a pub that had that you know had uh car scale on on on the bar almost everyone would have tiger or have something from everards on tap like it was they really they really were prevalent throughout you know pretty much the entire county yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah So how long were you there? Was that the last stop before hearing about Australia? Well, when I don't know, you know, I got made redundant at Bush's, made redundant at Tomasadi Dorchester, made redundant at Tomasadi Tiverton, and Sarah, my wife, and I sat down and we thought, let's put an application in to see if we can move to Australia and have a bit of an adventure.
00:45:21
Speaker
But it takes a couple of years for that whole process to unfold and and and then... obviously you get the outcome. So we didn't know whether we would be successful or with our application. But then we got this letter in the post to say, yeah you know, you've been successful. Here's a visa.
00:45:38
Speaker
And then you've got to make a decision. Do you go or do you stay? And at the time I was working Everard, I was loving it. But I thought, no, let's go. See what happens. You can always come back, you know? Otherwise you just regret it.
00:45:53
Speaker
And then I packed my bag, Came out here, for the job Little Creatures. Been here for over 20 years. Oh, you had the permission to come over, not tied to any job? No, no. Yeah, so, okay. Yeah, yeah.
00:46:08
Speaker
And were you thinking you might, you know, have to not be a brewer anymore or look for, obviously there weren't that many breweries in WA at the time. What were you of thinking you might do if it didn't work out?
00:46:20
Speaker
Look, if it didn't work out, I thought I would, well, I thought I'd start in Perth. And that didn't work out then. would slowly, you know, work my way across to Melbourne and and see what happened. But I actually did get a job here at a bakery as the quality manager, which was interesting for a few for a few weeks.
00:46:40
Speaker
But when I arrived, I just connected with the Institute of Brewing and Distilling Network here. And we had a few meetings and met a load of people. And I just had this sense that an opportunity would present itself at some point. Well, I guess if you pulled out your CV and showed them where you've been working, there are people, you know, in a fledgling, nascent craft beer scene in Australia that have been like, they'd have been fighting for you, surely.
00:47:04
Speaker
Well, that what that was what what I was hoping would happen and and that's what that's what unfolded. Yeah. Yeah. And so what what was it like, you know, Creatures would have been five
Early Craft Beer Scene in WA
00:47:13
Speaker
years in. So what what was, you know, like walking into Creatures back then? And I guess what was the, I guess, you know, the craft beer or the the beer, the hospital and and I guess the WA brewing scene like at the time?
00:47:25
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose it was in its infancy, really. i mean, you you did have the sort of history in Freo with Sailor Anker and Matilda Bay. So i think the <unk> community was sort of ready for for that for that for that next phase in craft,
00:47:47
Speaker
which was good. But you still had the same challenge. you know i remember going to my local pub when I first arrived. And I think from memory, it was 15 taps.
00:47:59
Speaker
And I think there was 13 lagers. And there was mercury cider and something else. And you kind of stand there looking at the tap bank for some time, wondering which of those 13 lagers you're going to order.
00:48:15
Speaker
And you do wonder who thought that was wise. Because I reckon you could put, blindfold pretty much everyone in the pub and give them all 13 and they wouldn't know which one was which. so you see Sarah, um I think we might have to head back home.
00:48:34
Speaker
So then you then you you quickly learn you quickly worked out where Little Creatures Palau was on tap and that's where you went to drink. i little hit But it's changed for the good over 20 years. You go into the pubs now, there's diversity of beer styles, diversity of products from different breweries.
00:48:54
Speaker
It's a more rewarding experience, let's put it that way. And did you think it was heading in a sort of, you know, direction? Like, i don't know if you'd been to America or anything like that. um Obviously, Little Creatures did take a lot of inspiration from the West Coast of the States, but like, did you sort of think, oh, we might be heading in a, you know, I guess more hop forward direction or anything like that? Or did it feel like it could go anyway or stay with 12 lagers on tap everywhere? No, no, you could sense something was happening.
00:49:29
Speaker
Um... and And the people the people we you're connected with in the industry were people that um had a lot of energy and passion to learn and explore and sort of take it forward. I think it was a really good time to be here.
00:49:52
Speaker
um and it was really good for my career and and and learning, really, to be part of that. broad group of of people that were sort of collaborating, having conversations, trying to learn together.
00:50:08
Speaker
And yes, you could you could you could sense that Australia was heading along ah along a similar path to the US and where it was going. But also, I think it was a group of people that understood some of the European history and the fact that we could actually learn something there as well. so Well, Phil would have loved having you there given he was a camera member from, you know, sort of...
00:50:32
Speaker
from 40 odd years ago whatever, you know, maybe even 50 years ago, he was a camera member. So he'd have loved having, you know, so a wingman there who understood all that side of things, I guess. right yeah Yeah. Yeah. And did you sort of feel within that group of creatures, what sort of feeling like with we've got a chance to change something here? You know, you know I guess, you like you say, Matilda Bay kind of started that process and there were other breweries, but was there almost a buzz within the team going, you know, we are at the center of this, you know, movement of great change in Australia?
00:51:01
Speaker
I think so. Yeah. There was ah a group of people here with a real drive and passion to move it forward, um, and connect and engage both with the community and customers and consumers to try and change the dial and sort of, I suppose, provide people with an opportunity to say that bid and beer can be something different and and try this, um,
00:51:29
Speaker
And what what a great challenge, honestly. What a great challenge to actually step into that and try and move that forward. It was brilliant. And what about all the beers you have created over the years, aside from keeping, you know, creatures pale, you know, to the standard it needs to be? There have been a number of limited, well, a lot limited releases. There was certainly a period probably in the 2010s, but the twenty ten s where there's a lot of single batch stuff coming out of um creatures. and Any that you look back on particularly fondly and would would love to see again? Surely Dreadnought.
00:51:59
Speaker
Yeah, Dreadnought. I mean, that's fantastic beer. Absolutely beer. Yeah, and I have no issues brewing that every winter, if I could. Yeah. um ah the The first one we did, I think, one of the first ones we did was an American Browner where we used Rye Malt. We hadn't used Rye Malt before, and that was a fantastic beer. And then we sort of... We had to prove to the business that we could actually nail it because...
00:52:29
Speaker
You know, a single batch is a single batch. So you got to nail that batch. Once we proved that we could do it, then the sort of business gave us some sort of bandwidth to actually explore. And and that's when we started to use look at different materials, different hops, and start to work through things. But always with a with a philosophy that we were trying to create beer that had drinkability.
00:52:57
Speaker
Yes, but still had flavor. um but add some balance as well. And I think we did very well at that. I think that hallmark has stayed with us. um And yeah, yeah. So, I mean, there's been lots of single batches that we put into those lovely pint bottles that I i adore and have fond memories of for sure. And you must have been probably the biggest user of EKG in Australia as well, I reckon. you have Some but breweries have their like house hop they like to use, but East Kent always seemed to be there providing a bit of ballast in almost every single limited release that came my way in that era, if I recall correctly. Yeah, so yeah EKG, I mean, um
00:53:42
Speaker
that was just sort of a a very refined bittering hop, a bit like Magnum. ah so It's a bittering hop that you can trust. Yeah. And it you know it went into the into the kettle for pale ale, and we sort of sprinkled that in quite a few at the start. But then laid it with good aroma hops coming out of the US or Australia as well.
00:54:08
Speaker
Well, something Guy was keen for us to ask. and Guy Sutherland was saying, what about IPA? i remember when the, you know, Creatures first put IPA out on Umbra taps and and, you know, i guess big push into bottles and it sort of never really took off and there's been other attempts since. I mean, I guess IPA has become a bit of a, you know, up craft beer thing over the last decade or so, but with Creatures, it's never sort of really stuck, which considering, you know, Creatures Pale was the iconic early, you know, hoppy American pale, know, Any idea what that might have been?
00:54:41
Speaker
That's a really good question. um I don't know the answer necessarily, but I mean, we've made some really, really good IPAs, as do a lot of breweries.
00:54:52
Speaker
um But the issue, I think, is that people don't buy them. Right. That's fundamentally, I mean, commercially, that's that's really the challenge is that, um yes, When we delisted IPA and started making it, we we had a you know a number of emails and people come to brewery going, oh, this is not good, this is not good or this one of my favourites and all that, which I understand. um but But fundamentally, i don't think the Australian consumer necessarily
00:55:25
Speaker
Um, buys a lot of IPA. i suppose you I guess maybe if you're a smaller brewery, you you don't have to sell through as much to keep it viable. Whereas I suppose exactly the the people are, you know, keeping an eye on sales at creatures are like this just, know, what the hell are you doing mate? Yeah. um And what about any sort of, you know, are there any beers that you've not yet been able to take from, you know, your brain into recipe development and put out there that you'd still like to put out under the creatures banner at some point?
00:55:56
Speaker
That's a good question. um i think the one beer that... Now, we we did do it um and we did put it into small pack in a small run.
00:56:10
Speaker
But I was really intrigued at one point on Florida Vicer. I thought that the Australian consumer would really love that product in terms of...
00:56:23
Speaker
um You know how it presented in the glass. We did various batches here. We did a Mulberry one that was really bright, really popped in the glass, looked really good.
00:56:36
Speaker
Low ABV, a touch of sourness, really drinkable. And I remember when we um when we dispensed it in a brew house bar as brewers and we were trying it and we were talking about it we had lots and lots of customers in the Browhouse Bar walk over to us and go, what is that? I've never seen anything like that before. Can we try it? So we said, yeah, of course can.
00:57:01
Speaker
And so we ended up dispensing lots to all these people in the Browhouse Bar, and they were all saying, this is fantastic. but But again, we never really we never really got the opportunity, out and I don't think, to take that to where I thought it could be in the Australian market. um
00:57:19
Speaker
I don't know whether that's answered question, but... No, but maybe one you'd like to give it another go. It is interesting, isn't it? You know, we've we've seen so many different beer styles get a buzz around them and people get into them. But essentially, it does seem that the Australian palate as a whole, even in the craftier waters, seems to sort of be drawn back into your four, four and a half percent light hoppy pale or, you know, and or you know pretty much straight up lager, it seems.
00:57:46
Speaker
Do you think that is an outcome of, I do feel sometimes that when I go to, you know, I go out and I go to a little craft brewery, they're all doing the same thing.
00:57:59
Speaker
Do you think it's an outcome of that? The fact that we're not as an industry exploring like like we were? or do you think it? The consumer. It's like chicken and egg, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting mean because there are some, I guess, you know have breweries that have some distinction, but we were chatting about it someone the other day and it's like, you know, if you're a smaller brewery now, what do you make that you can guarantee you're going to sell? And it's going to be a hazy pale or a hazy IPA because that's just where...
00:58:29
Speaker
That's just what sells it. You can put other stuff out there and trial it, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to shift. You'll find some people that love it. And I guess some of the smaller, like say, slow lane, they have an ardent following for their, you know, traditional European styles and they can try whatever they want really, do it well and and because they're only selling a small amount of it. um But yeah, you wonder whether it is the chicken. egg If you're only going to give people certain things, you know, it's going to sell.
00:58:53
Speaker
How do you then, you know, get your, get your vice beers out there? Yeah. I mean, I really miss Little Creatures Pilsner. That was, I thought, a fantastic beer. And again, that was a product that um won a lot of awards.
00:59:10
Speaker
Brewers really liked, but again, di didn't necessarily sell that well out in the market. I don't know how you get consumers to trade up and spend more on ah on a lager. That's a challenge, I think. But that's another great beer I miss.
00:59:27
Speaker
creatures perl and You talked about working with Voyager on this um the strong pale ale that's coming out for for the celebration, l part of the anniversary celebrations. um There's a number of smaller sort of hop growers and malt producers now in WA.
00:59:41
Speaker
Have you had a chance to work with them um or would they sort of almost be at too sort of smaller scale to be able to almost, you know, um to provide enough for you guys? because I guess obviously Voyager have got to a bigger ah ah bigger level now.
00:59:54
Speaker
Yeah, so we've we've done some work last year with um uh niff niff malt so ian and i haggarty over here uh and their region uh malt um natural intelligence farming we've done three brews with them we did get voyager to do that malting for us but we we've been and visited scotty butson down at malacoat malt and we're we're trying to sort of move forward to see how we can progress using the REGEN malt more, WA REGEN malt.
01:00:30
Speaker
So that work is unfolding as I speak. But yeah, we made three beers with that WA REGEN malt and they were really quite good and and looking forward to doing more work with that that material moving forward.
01:00:46
Speaker
And can you see that becoming a significant part of what you do or is it, you know, such a sort of nascent fledgling part of the, I guess, the agricultural world that it's always going to, for now at least with the foreseeable future, might just be smaller batch stuff or can you see it evolving, you know, into something more significant?
01:01:04
Speaker
and That's a good question. I can see it evolving into something more substantial. Definitely, yeah. um At the moment, I think, there's a small community farmers that are um exploring and learning.
01:01:21
Speaker
and I think it's important to connect with them to to try and help them move forward. And then also we can learn and grow as they learn and grow as well, which I think is is is what we really need to do.
01:01:33
Speaker
Fortunately for us, we've got the Canfield, a little Canfield brewery. So um we've made a couple of beers using some of their material there. Um, and got them involved with what we were doing there, particularly for for a conference they were they were holding at the Opter Stadium. But yeah, this is what really excites me, is is connecting with these people.
01:01:56
Speaker
There's an awful amount good people trying to do some good things out there. um And to connect with them and be part of that community and and really just learn.
01:02:07
Speaker
as they learn, I think is quite important. Yeah. And you'd you'd think for some of those smaller producers as well to come them into contact with the likes of you, I'm sure they can work. I'm sure they enjoy working with any brewery or, you know, at any scale, but to, you you know, come into creatures and sort of work with you as well, probably give them a level of validation as well to think, well, you know, the, the, the, one of the trailblazers is interested in what we're doing and give them a bit to the confidence to keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, it's good. i What about, i mean, you know, that's ah the small, a bit these small businesses are a sign of a pretty healthy industry in WA.
The Future of WA Brewing & Beer Trends
01:02:43
Speaker
Like how do you sort of take the the scene, the brewing scene more widely in your home state that like um I was over two years ago and I found being from the east coast of Australia and Victoria, I was sort of shocked that still feels like there's a lot more money floating around Western Australia, a lot more disposable income. Do you feel like you're sort of getting through some of these?
01:03:03
Speaker
challenges a lot of the industry is having over east? Yeah, look, I think so. um We've just had Fremantle Beer Festival and I was talking to someone the other way and went, crikey, you still have beer festivals?
01:03:16
Speaker
They seem to have disappeared in certain places because the level of interest wasn't there, but we're still having them over here. We've still got a strong scene um and a strong set of healthy businesses, I think.
01:03:31
Speaker
They're doing some really good stuff. um what we're We're all facing challenges that that everyone else is facing. I suppose the way I would think of it is if you've got, you know, you've got small projects, medium-sized projects and large projects, I think the medium projects have have gone.
01:03:49
Speaker
They take up too much resource and time and don't deliver as much. um For me and my team here, just my brewing team, we're focused on what we call 1% improvements, which is little, small, incremental things that we can do differently, um through continuous improvement to try and make sure that the business remains healthy. and And then we're doing big stuff like redeveloping the hospitality venue, cost a lot of money, et cetera. But, um,
01:04:22
Speaker
you know, it's the sort of revamp and refresh that it that it needed. But I can see that, you know, that you've got breweries over in the WA that are opening new hospitality venues and stepping into other bits. So i think we're all focusing on, um you know, growing our business in the right areas and so that, um you know, the the business remains healthy and the same remain remains healthy moving forward.
01:04:47
Speaker
And it's kind of interesting, isn't it? that there's There's so much more focus on the hospitality side of brewing businesses now. And we're chatting to a couple of my WA writers for our end of year podcast stuff that'll be out in a yeah know week or two after this. And they were talking about often it's like some of the brewery venues are winning a load of hospitality awards in the state now because they're actually doing stuff that is beyond what pretty much any other sector of the industry is doing. And yet, if you look back from day one at Creatures, it was all about hospitality was so central to...
01:05:16
Speaker
the offering So maybe like this of the clues were sort of there there from early on that it always had to be this holistic beast. Yeah, and i think it's um I think that's a really important point, you know because I think when Creatures opened here in Frio, I don't know what the number was, but let's just say, for example, there was 500 pubs in Perth. There was only one craft brewery on the water with a hospitality venue in it. So then you've got this distinction and different offerings. And then you create this culture and vibrancy there.
01:05:50
Speaker
um But yeah, you're right. These other craft brewers are opening these hospitality venues, but what they're doing there is different to what you get at the local pub on the corner. So, and then they they service their community and people have that sort of connection with the brewer and and the product.
01:06:11
Speaker
And it just all comes together and knits together very nicely, doesn't it? And you can see how how that's, you know, fruitful for everyone, really. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And in terms of looking ahead, whether from, a you know, creatures going into its second quarter century or just more widely for the beer scene, anything you'd love to see in 2026?
01:06:32
Speaker
More people drinking Little Creatures Pale Ale. LAUGHTER All right. Thanks very much for the chat. Yeah. I've got an 18 year old daughter Ruby and she drinks cocktails and RTDs and fruity things. and You just need to come up with a recipe that uses little creatures bail as the basis for and a cocktail and sort of, you know, and they gradually strip away one ingredient at a time until all she's got left is the beer. know. I know. I, you know,
01:07:04
Speaker
If I can't influence my daughter to try beer, then I don't know. it It's hard. It's going to be hard for us moving forward. But no, it's just carrying on, making the best beer that we can and um doing the right things, I think. Do you think these things are cyclical and beer will come back round again? I certainly hope so.
01:07:29
Speaker
It always has, hasn't it? you know maybe It may be ah in a slower cycle pre-2000s. There was ah an extended period of pretty much lager, other than Cooper's here. But I think it will mean we've even seen it in the time of Crafty Pint. Last year, there was a bit of a revival for you know English Pails and more the European styles, and then lager coming back. and yeah i think...
01:07:51
Speaker
Certain styles will just end up having a bit of longevity. There's people out there who just still just love drinking West Coast IPA, whether they're harder to find or easier to find. there's some you know it just There'll just be certain of more things will stick around. But it does seem that within Australia, most people will stick to a 4%, 4.5% lager or fruity pale for the most part.
01:08:12
Speaker
Wonderful, Ross. Thank you so much for joining us. No problem. my pleasure. Cheers. Happy birthday. Thank you. Cheers.
01:08:24
Speaker
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01:08:38
Speaker
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Speaker
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01:09:14
Speaker
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01:09:28
Speaker
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01:09:44
Speaker
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