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Felons' Lavish Land Grab
440 Plays10 days ago
“How rock n’ roll to take our largest space and fill it with 20,000 litres of barrel-aged beer.”
There’s little in Australian beer like Felons Brewing. First appearing as part of the Howard Smith Wharves (now Artemus Group) development on the Brisbane River as it flows under the iconic Story Bridge, the brewery’s home has steadily gobbled up more of the riverbank to the point its multiple venues can host thousands.
Since late 2024, they’ve been steadily taking over the equally iconic Manly Wharf, most recently opening the Barrel Room live music venue (in addition to the Barrel Hall in Brisbane) and a seafood restaurant for which they’ve devised a way to pour their lager at sub-zero temperatures for maximum crispiness.
Such grandiosity, especially in an era of frugality for many, might seem at odds with much of the indie beer industry. Yet, as our chat with head brewer Tom Champion and brand director Dean Romeo – two of the Little Creatures alumni brought into the business before it launched – shows, they’re community players, in beer and elsewhere, driven by a belief that a rising tide lifts all boats. Or, in this case, indie brewers.
What’s more, there are few breweries in Australia with similar potential to act as a first point of contact for newcomers to craft beer.
Our conversation takes in their story to date, their approach to hospitality, events and collaborations, maintaining one of the country’s largest barrel programs within such a large commercial entity, their thoughts on the wider beer industry, beer tourism and more.
On the eve of a trip to New South Wales to record more podcasts, catch up with beer world mates old and new, and host an event with Wildflower and Garage Project, Will and James open the show with a look at the week on Crafty: a new Crafty Crawl via Melbourne’s new Metro Tunnel; an entertaining tenth anniversary Brew & A with Young Henrys’ head brewer; and the launch of Allday Brewing by the mates behind Forward Hops beer importers.
Start of segments:- 0:00 – The Week On Crafty
- 14:05 – Dean & Tom Part 1
- 44:08 – Pint of Origin Festival 2026 Promo
- 45:00 – Dean & Tom Part 2
To find out more about featuring on The Crafty Pint Podcast or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact craig@craftypint.com.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sydney Trip
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Crafty Poe Podcast. I'm Will. I'm James. And ah Will, this is on the eve of us spending a full four days in each other's pockets. hope you're looking forward to that. Can't wait. Yeah, we're about to head up to Sydney and then leave Sydney immediately to go south to Wollongong and catch up with a few people down there and on the south coast. And then we'll have some events up in Sydney over the weekend. Yeah, yeah, ah first trip, interstate trip of the year. So um yeah, we should come back with a few podcasts. We're ostensibly up there for the Theatre of Beer event that we're co-hosting with Topher from Wildflower and Pete from The Garage Project on, from The Garage Project, from Garage Project on the Sunday. That sold out pretty much straight away, but there is a wider event taking place at Wildflower that day. So if you want to come down, we'll be hanging around there for a bit and we'll be flitting around you a few breweries around the gong. We'll be at Seekers Gladbury event as you mentioned and um and yeah hopefully but bump into a few people whether from the industry or just ah friends from the beer world while we're there as well.
Craft Beer Growth and Key Figures
00:01:04
Speaker
um And I guess a nice segue from talking about beer in Sydney. um We've run a brunet this week. I would say one of them
00:01:13
Speaker
One of the Bruinay entries I've enjoyed reading the most. You get to the end of this piece and go, I just want to hang out with Jesse. Yes, Jesse Searles or Searlesy. It's to sort of mark his 10 years at Young Henry's, which is pretty amazing. at Young Henry's turned 10 a couple of years ago, i think. Nearly four.
00:01:31
Speaker
Nearly four years ago. God, I felt like I wrote an anniversary piece about them yesterday. There you four years ago. And yeah, Jesse's been there for a long time. I guess it shows the the maturity of the industry to degree. Yeah, were talking before, and we like I think over the last couple of years, we've run so many 10 lessons from 10 years or you know events marking 10 years of breweries, bars, venues, bottle shops, whatever. But I think, you know, craft be has been established long enough that you can have someone like Jesse who isn't, you know, a founder or an owner of a business who's been in this same business for 10 years. But as anyone knows him would, you know, expect the answers are colourful, but they're insightful. They're very entertaining. So, yeah, that's that's would be included in the show notes today. um And hopefully we'll bump into Jesse while we're in Sydney over the
All Day Brewing Launch
00:02:18
Speaker
coming days. um I guess another sort of brewing related story, you had a chat to some guys ah elsewhere in Australia who I guess would be best known to people in the beer scene for their work they'd done overseas but now they're sort of looking to bring things back home.
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, two more characters in the industry, really. ah Dave Allen and Peter Craig. They started Forward Hops in 2018. Basically, if you've been drinking, the the the more interesting, I'd craft beer out of America. that Often to me, I feel like I'm so focused on Australian craft beer that I don't know who these breweries are. Yeah. But the breweries that do excite people in Australia, you have Ford Hops to thank. They sort of started it to to bring in small quantities of really fresh, often very hop-forward beers. And now they've launched All Day Brewing. They say they've sort of been dragged kicking and screaming into it because a lot of venue owners that they're friends with have like, oh, you should do something of your own for a long time. So they've launched recently. so it's a bit odd to talk about a new brewery.
00:03:22
Speaker
The people behind it have actually been in business for a very long time, but I think it will be an interesting brewing company to watch. They're brewing out of Rocky Ridge for the moment. When I was talking to Dave, he was on the way down to the Rocky Ridge farm in WA sort of try and secure a bit more tank space because they're excited about what they have planned. So yeah. Yeah. I think essentially, you know, if you've had been Pint of Origin USA at Carwin Cellars in recent years, pretty much every beer that's going to be on offer there will have come through these guys. And it feels like Forward Hops was just like a way to pay for your holidays and and get ah and get an in at some amazing breweries. And, you know, because they are sort of more on the business side of this, that they've recruited a brewer who they're keeping anonymous, ah mostly because the brewer works somewhere else, but they've given them the name of Rooster Cogburn, which I quite like. Yeah, well, and I saw that name and it was one of those strange coincidences that the universe often throws up. i was like, yeah the name stuck in the brain when I was you know putting the article on the website the other day. And then I was reading sort of a piece about um Robert Duvall's greatest roles. You know, Robert Duvall. And it mentioned the original True Grit and the John Wayne's character in True Grit is Rooster Cogburn. Ah, right. There you go. And I would have absolutely no idea. And literally, they put that in the piece on, you know, we ran the piece on earlier in the week. And then the following day, i was reading this article. And i was like, oh, there you go Thank you, universe, for educating me um on their little ah pop culture reference
Crafty Crawl and Footscray's Cultural Scene
00:04:51
Speaker
there. um the uh remake of true grit for my opinion is much better than the original but robert duval wasn't it it so hence the uh my link there but um i guess moving away from brewing into bars and i guess a nice sort of tie into our main guest this week because this this is a beer trap we put this on this is the beer travel part of the website and we got a fun new crafty crawl that i think you had a lot of fun putting together, giving your love of you know so history, public transport and beer. You want to tell us about that, Will? A real perfect circle of my interest there. you're hoping that If only politics have been involved as well. i Well, I mean, the tunnel will cost a lot more money to make than it should happen. A lot of it might have gone to the CFMEU. So there's plenty of politics sort of floating around it. But yeah, no, Jack from Mr. West, ah one one of the key members there, he he reached out and was like, oh, would you be interested in doing a crafty crawl on the new metro tunnel? Because, you know, it's it's brand new. It gets people into Footscray particularly really easily. And I said, absolutely. I love nothing more than public transport. So let me work out the best way to do it. What about 90s hip hop? Yeah, well, you know, I'm sure I threw a few references to that in there. So I thought, actually, this could be a two-parter. It starts at Parkville, one of the brand-new stations, and then moves west to Footscray. And at a later date, we'll go to State Library, which is right in the heart of the city, and and go sort of the to the southeast of the so of it. But, yeah, I mean, it seems to have had a very good reaction online, um which is good to know. People...
00:06:17
Speaker
You know, one of the difficulties of organizing getting your friends around is often that Ubers are too small or too expensive or difficult, whereas the Metro Tunnel does give you that opportunity to bring a large group of people together. And also Melbourne's not very used to frequent public transport. and it it It can... ah struggle often so having something that's much more turn up and go does mean you can easily get between places. It doesn't matter if you miss a train. Every three or four minutes it reminds me of my time in Munich years ago where didn't matter if you missed something because the next you know train will be coming in through pretty much instantly afterwards. Yeah I mean the Tube's been doing this for a hundred years and so yeah we're finally catching up as a city. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know it's interesting you were saying, is it from from the start of this crawl to the furthest station? Yes, there's some walking to be done. It's from some of the stops to get to the venues. It's a mere 11 minutes to yeah get out to West Footscray now. um And I think, you know, certainly we've been, know, with Pint of Origin each year. with Mr. West has been, you know, troopers out there in Footscray, but kind of a little bit out on their own. And we always out and visit them. And we design the crawls to get people out there. But one of the things we've done this year is people discover in a couple of weeks' time when we announce the line-up is get a second... footscray venue and just to sort of encourage more people to go out the way and i think you know hopefully we're getting out there that you can get out there very easily on the train now um is a you know helpful thing yeah in melbourne we talk a lot about the north versus say south divide with north of the river south of the river but footscray is sort of unfortunately despite being incredibly close the city i think sometimes isn't as much on people's radar as a place to go out and a place to spend your day when i love footscray love everything about it it's a Beautiful suburb, very multicultural, has excellent food, has excellent bars. It's a great place to hang out.
00:07:55
Speaker
I went there twice last week, and I'd like to say it's because I love the place. It's because I left my laptop at the IBAC-IBD event and had to go back at 9 o'clock at night with my poor son in the passenger seat. But anyway, that's by the by.
00:08:07
Speaker
i guess you know the the main guest this week is Dean Romeo and Tom Champion from Felons
Felons Brewing's Strategic Expansion
00:08:13
Speaker
Brewing. um And we sort of figured they – we talk about a lot of things there, but I think we've figured a key element of what they do at Felons is the locations that they have, the size – It's kind of almost a beer tourism, beer travel kind of piece. You know, they've got this incredible location, their original venue under the Story Bridge on the Brisbane River that sort of expanded, expanded and get thousands of people through all the time. They've now pretty much taken over Manly Wharf. I think, you know, it's almost impossible to get off the ferry at Manly now without being... going through or sort of being aware that there is this brewery and now a barrel room.
00:08:43
Speaker
Plus, you know felons but you know, they've got a seafood restaurant, whatever there. um So it it was good to have a chat to them because their their barrel room in Manly has only been open a few weeks, um which is kind of interesting itself. I think coming in you know it's sort of with with such a large venue and such a sort of broad scope and clearly you know some money behind them them from the Artemis group you know I think there was a few people sitting around the Brisbane scene were like oh who these you know they're not really part of the craft beer scene kind of thing but you know yes they might have their crisp lager which is know won awards as their main beer but they also do a barrel aged version of it they are one of the few breweries out there still operating not just one but now two large barrel programs You know, they're putting some great beers out. It's not just for show. um And, you know, certainly Tom, we we talk about he's been brought on as one of the beer ambassador one of the ambassadors for the new beer championships that we wrote about couple of weeks ago. um but he's also on the board of the IBA. I had my first board meeting with him this week. And, you know, they're very much, you know, part of the independent beer scene. Yes, they they might sort of be ah on a different scale to a lot of the smaller amb breweries out there. But as Tom says in the chat, you know, rising tide, you know, floats all boats floats all ships kind of thing. Yeah, and you know, it's been interesting watching the developers as well It's a great chat. I think we get into, you know, they're very hospitality forward, but also trying to grow the business. I mean, Dean ah goes a lot into the brand story and things like that. he's He's very on message, which I always like about Dean. You can sort of see the inner workings of how he wants to talk about felons and how how they do try to build the brewery around this narrative that they created. He's a born sort of marketer brand guy, isn't he? Like he's like you know he will make sure that he gets the messaging across, but you know, in a very engaging way. And I think a lot of breweries could do more of that potentially as well. I look at a lot of breweries, I kind of go, I find it hard to work out who they are or what they're about. Whereas Felons has a very multifaceted approach, but ah you still, you spot Felons a mile away kind of, which I think think has been part of their success.
00:10:41
Speaker
yeah when you got a building that large with felons on the roof when you're driving over the story bridge and it's very easy in brisbane to end up driving over the story bridge when you don't intend to so um you know that's a bit of extra advertising for them there so yeah that's that's coming up after the break um just want to say thank you to everyone that came down to our two crafty cabal beer club events last week we were at the sporting club in Brunswick with John and Steve from Shore Brewing last Thursday in the private dining room. um The photos we saw after this, basically everyone having a laugh. like they They're such great characters and um the amazing hop forward beers that we shared were very much enjoyed. um And then we had a chat with Brady from Future Brewing at Bench Warmer. on Saturday saturday um lunchtime out in the beer garden at Bench Warmer. um
00:11:28
Speaker
Brady spoke really well. I said, so that was great. you know He spoke so well. I think we, over the course of three beers, chatted for an hour and a half whatever. He goes, I've never done an event like that before. And as I was like, mate, you're to the man aboard. So yeah, it was great. And obviously, we'll hopefully see a few at the sold out Wildflower event on Sunday. And we've just put live tickets on sale for a dive into the Three Ravens cellar. So Murray, the head brewer there, has pulled out a whole bunch of old barrel-aged blends. and There might be some other stuff he's going to squirrel out for the event for a bit a bit of a um mixed mixed ferment barrel-aged sort of beer special with some funky cheeses on April the second second ahead of the long weekend. We'll have some more stuff for beer club members tied to Pint of Origin and some other events coming up around the country as well. um
00:12:17
Speaker
Craftycabal.com if you want to find out more about supporting us via by becoming a member of Beer Club. And if you want to reach the podcast, you can do so by emailing podcast at Crafty Pine. And if you enjoy our episodes, you can always like, subscribe, leave a comment, review us, any of that stuff it helps other people discover the show. So enjoy the chat with felons and we'll see on the other side. Cheers. And maybe in Sydney.
00:12:39
Speaker
Cheers.
00:12:42
Speaker
We love how beer brings people together and that's really what the Crafty Cabal is all about. It's a community of beer lovers who love discovering great breweries, supporting the people behind them and sharing a few good pints along the way.
00:12:56
Speaker
For just $99 a year, Cabal members get access to a stack of perks, some of Australia's best breweries, venues and bottle shops, plus invites to exclusive events, and 2026 is already looking mighty fine. Feb 12, get to know Shaw Brewing as they take you through a private tasting in the private dining room at the Sporting Club Hotel Brunswick.
00:13:18
Speaker
Feb 14, future brewing are heading to Bench Warmer in North Melbourne for an exclusive cabal event to celebrate their sixth birthday. Feb 22 joined James from the Crafty Pine at Wildflower in Marrickville. as he hosts the Theatre of Beer featuring Wildflower and Garage Project.
00:13:37
Speaker
Plus, we have double passes to give away for the Canberra Beer and Cider Festival and cases of Holgate's new release Sour AF up for grabs. There are hundreds of deals, special releases and events rolling out across the country.
00:13:52
Speaker
If you love good beer, good people and discovering new places along the way, who would love for you to join us. To find out more and to become a part of the Crafty Cabal, Head to craftycabale.com.
00:14:04
Speaker
Cheers. Dean and Tom, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Now, before we get deep into felons, let's go back a little bit and maybe tell the audience ah what both your backgrounds are in the beer world because they're long and varied, but also it sounds like you guys have crossed but maybe worked together your whole lives as well.
00:14:26
Speaker
You're very intertwined. It was love at first beer.
00:14:31
Speaker
um Who wants kick it off? I can go first. Yeah, yeah. yeah So um about 18 years in the beer industry in Australia, 20 odd, maybe 24 years in in hospitality.
00:14:46
Speaker
um Found myself in a car with a German backpacker named Gizmo. Was that a birth name? ah Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was on his license, his international license. Could have gone a myriad of ways because I had watched Wolf Creek before this. um But thankfully, we survived the journey and we ended up at, ah well, in Fremantle in Western Australia.
00:15:10
Speaker
um You know, I heard about this brand, Little Creatures, for for many years. Many a month beforehand, I tried the Little Creatures Bright Ale and you know I was working at a winery at ah at the time in in Victoria called Shadowfax Winery.
00:15:26
Speaker
um i tried the beer, it was a bit of an epiphany beer, I'm sure we've heard that term a lot. And if you haven't, it's really the beer that that kind of like is a light bulb moment for you that you know you kind of have and you realize, wow, maybe this is for me.
00:15:39
Speaker
um So I had Little Creatures Bright Owl. That was the epiphany moment. I was in this car with Gizmo. We rolled into Fremantle. I had to go to Little Creatures. i walked in there and it was exactly everything that I thought it could have been. um i hassled the manager to get a job three days in a row. they They kept telling me to go away, but I wouldn't take no for an answer.
00:15:59
Speaker
um That's now my partner, Claire. So thanks, Claire, for adding it in there with me. um And yeah, i worked ah I worked at Creatures for about six years. um Started as a glassy, finished as ah as a venue manager and and setting up their new brewery in Geelong.
00:16:16
Speaker
um And then a good mentor at the time, knew and that I wanted to get into marketing and branding. And he had some really sound advice for me, which was go and do sales because sales and marketing go handin hand in hand.
00:16:28
Speaker
So Claire and I moved up to the Big Smoke in Melbourne um and I did sales for a small brewing company by the name of Barrow Boys Brewing with Ash Hazel um and a few others. And we we launched ah a beer called Stormy Lager, which is a malt driven lager.
00:16:46
Speaker
And yeah, i peddled that in Melbourne for a good four years. um And that kind of led me to the opportunity to to jump on a plane to to Brisbane and meet the founders and directors of of Felons Brewing Co. and and and Howard Smith Wharves, which is now known as the Artemis Group.
00:17:04
Speaker
um And yeah, I met Adam Flaskus and he gave me a tour of the precinct and said, hey, what do you think? And I was like, You know, it was raining that day and and um there was like a natural waterfall that was like formed behind where the brewery was going to be. And was, you know, so funny, but that was the moment for me. I was like, hey, so like you're going to build a brewery and the bar is going to be there.
00:17:28
Speaker
and when it rains, there's a waterfall like right there. and And he was surprised. He didn't even, you know, he had that much stuff going on. He didn't even realize there was a waterfall right there. And I don't know, you know, I'm an energetic person and I'm like, all right, where do I sign? Let's do this.
00:17:42
Speaker
um And that has now been nearly eight years. has um Started as a marketing manager and now brand director. Yeah, nice stuff. What about you, you Tom?
Career Transitions into Brewing
00:17:54
Speaker
Well, it's a very exciting journey when you rattle out. Mine's boring as shit, mate. No, it's not. I can tell a story, though. That's my job, remember? Yeah, he is.
00:18:05
Speaker
He is the resident storyteller. um Similar in in where we both started. So, but I studied chemical engineering and got into mining for about a year. I come from from Perth, um grew up there.
00:18:18
Speaker
um and then yeah got got the shits of mining just wasn't for me and had done a unit on brewing in in the chemical engineering course and and had had caught the bug without knowing I'd caught it. i So you essentially went, I don't like money. I want to be a brewer. That's now when I reflect my and then yeah, there's, you know, decisions are catching up with me, but I wouldn't change it for the world, mate. It's been, um, a lot more rewarding for sure. The, the, um, you know, I've, and I've enjoyed going to work every day. Whereas that year when I was, when I was working in the city, I, you know, it was a sense of dread, like, and Mondays, man, like, ah, how am I going to do this for the rest of my life? So, um, No, it was a good decision. um Financially crippling, but an ultimately good decision. And then, yes, had a very similar time ah to Dean at Little Creatures. They also told me they didn't want me the first time around. So just a couple of bullish blokes, just not taking no for an answer. You've got to get guys. That's the key thing. Just go for it Exactly.
00:19:15
Speaker
um And then, yeah, from from there, working Little Creatures Fremantle, moved over to Geelong when we set up the um the the bigger facility there. And and then um background and engineering helped with that and then moved into management of that that space. And Dina was over in the hospice side at that point. And then a little stint in Hong Kong when um that was when Little Creatures was um acquired by Lion in totality and we're making a push into into Asia and Southeast Asia. So we started a Little Creatures Brew Pub in Hong Kong.
00:19:47
Speaker
So a couple of years there, that was exciting. That was fun. But then, yeah, like I said, i've got I've got two young daughters and they were getting to school age at that time and wanted to come home and just really, um yeah, landed on my feet with the the opportunity for, it wasn't even called felons at that point. we didn't We hadn't named it. We were involved in that whole process. So um just a brewery that was going to be built on the banks of the Brisbane River. was really exciting and had never been to Brisbane, but thought, you know, a real appreciation for Australia having lived abroad for a couple of years. I'm sure anywhere is going to be good, schools, hospitals, transport. So I was excited to get home.
00:20:22
Speaker
And what was going on with the people founding Howard Smith Ward, now Artemis, like just hunting down Little Creatures employees or like like how did it sort of end up there? Because Ash was involved, wasn't he, at the start as well? Ash Cranston, yeah.
00:20:37
Speaker
I think that's where it starts, right? Like you you build your network over your career and and his was largely ingrained in Little Creatures because of how much time he had there. So when he's flicking through the Rolodex looking for the the two best players,
00:20:49
Speaker
two best guys yeah eventually he got to the bottom and they're not available they're not available but yeah i think i think it's born from him and and you know there were um there were people from other large businesses that that that brought people they knew and had worked with so it wasn't wasn't um Wasn't too saturated with creatures, but definitely at the start there was, yeah. Yeah, I think um guided i think Adam and Paul, um you know, theyre they're the partners in the in the parent company, Artemis Group and and Felons. And, you know, they're pretty ambitious guys. they They're guys that have a similar story to us in relation to like they haven't come from a lot.
00:21:29
Speaker
So I think it was a really exciting opportunity for them and they just wanted to make sure that, you know, they got they got a really good team together from the outset, a team that had, you know, similar experience in the industry. um You know, they were they were essentially kickstarting about 10 or 13 different businesses at the same time across the whole of Howard Smith Wharves, which is a nine acre precinct right on the Brisbane River. so I think, yeah, they they really had that appetite to make sure that they had a really strong starting team. to get things going.
00:22:00
Speaker
I guess with the number of creature staff that were there at the start, and I guess the setup, you know, big major hospitality focus, you know, do you think is something of like an East coast sort of a spiritual successor to creatures in the way it's set up and the beers you make and all that kind of stuff?
00:22:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think um for sure when we started, that was all we really knew, right, and for those of us that came. So we were inspired by what we'd seen and, and um you know, serving tanks behind the bar, creating connection with the stainless, creating that connection with the beer um and the customers and training for staff and education. like There was lots of things we drew on. But one thing we've definitely learned over the eight years is is not to, you know, we've we've broken a lot of the non-negotiables that we would have had in Little Creatures back in the day. that when we started we said oh we never you know we never show sport that was one thing at Little Creation never have a television never show sport and and for that era that worked quite well right but um but as we're as we're getting you know into a different you know turn um and getting into a different time you have to you have to challenge those things and be open to go well we didn't do it there but you know
00:23:04
Speaker
let's, you've got to try something new and you've got to evolve. So I think there is a foundation there, but over the last eight years, if you, if you think about what felons is and the offering at felons now and how we operate and do what we do, it it really is quite, it is different in a lot of ways as well to what little creatures was say, you know, 20, 30 years ago. How many people did you have in for the super bowl?
00:23:23
Speaker
we had ah We had a stacked house, mate. Yeah. so included I think we had just over 600 at the Barrel Hall in Brisbane and we had about 300 in the Barrel Room, which is our new kind of cultural live entertainment space at Manly Wharf in Sydney.
00:23:40
Speaker
So, yeah, we were pretty stoked. yeah I mean, i watched I watched the game. It was pretty awesome. Bad Bunny definitely put on a good show. Yeah. It's a good sign. when when the When we first did the Super Bowl, I think it was maybe four years ago now, sort of you know we always struggled to fill the room, but it was a good turnout. But it is growing and growing and growing. like There's an appetite there. And if that's working for you, then you've got to throw wood on that fire and and not stay too beholden to to principles that that might have once seemed important.
00:24:09
Speaker
Yeah. And it might, um, I mean, it might not be a surprise, but I thought this was an interesting, um, statistic this year. Um, there were more people in Australia watching the Superbowl than tuned into Melbourne cup late last year, yeah which, which is really cool to kind of hear and interesting to understand.
00:24:27
Speaker
Hopefully we soon get a public holiday for the Superbowl rather than the cup.
Cultural Shifts: Superbowl vs Melbourne Cup
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah. You know, yeah you can't help, but look around the room and just see all the cheeky smiles. Um, you know, it's a Monday morning. Everyone's like, you know, locked in having a couple of beers guilt free, chicken wings. It's pretty funny. Yeah.
00:24:46
Speaker
Um, you, but you mentioned how the sort of feelings of today is a bit different to when it started out. Like was the, um sort of ambition and outlook that it would become as big as it is along you know the brisbane river and then to look into into a second city or is that all sort of come with you know as opportunities have arisen Yeah, um look, I think we were always really ambitious with the brand and the business.
00:25:11
Speaker
um You know, we we, Felons as a brand built on a pretty awesome story, like ah a part of Australian kind of history and a journey that a few gentlemen kind of took way back a couple of hundred years ago. um And, you know, we we spend so much time kind of articulating that, getting that foundation down um in hopes that, you know, we'd be building the foundation to build, you know, a national beer brand um and a new a new look at what a national beer brand can be.
00:25:45
Speaker
um So, yeah, i think I think as far as how it's kind of played out versus how we thought, like what we thought we would achieve, I think,
00:25:56
Speaker
I think it's pretty on track. You know, we're pretty ambitious with the business and the brand and we feel like, you know, um without sounding like a cliche in this game, there's still an opportunity there for for a brand like Felons and a beer like our crisp lager Australian pale ale and then our limited release as well as our barrel aged beers to have a place in more bars, more restaurants, more people's homes around the country and um You know, to give more context to that, um so Felons Brewing Co is named after these four individuals who back in 1823, they, you know, they were based here in Sydney um and they were all kind of woodcutters or carpenters as we know them now.
00:26:42
Speaker
um And the first thing, well they they each received a ticket of leave, they were convicts. And the first thing that they wanted to do with their leave and their freedom I should say, was to grab a grab a timber boat, head south from Sydney and go fetch some some cedar um to you know build some build some things.
00:27:00
Speaker
um And within eight miles of their destination a violent wind arose, they got pushed out to sea and they were lost at sea for about three weeks. Um, cool part of the story is they had six gallons of rum, five gallons of water, three pounds of pork and a couple of pounds of flour. So they had more rum than water board.
00:27:18
Speaker
So, you know, when we were reading this story, we instantly thought that these were our people. Um, And anyway, they're lost at sea, you know, conditions pretty dire, all the supplies dwindled.
00:27:30
Speaker
um You know, the next one of them unfortunately passed away, it was just three left. And the next land that they sighted was is, you know, what we know as Moreton Island, one of the largest sand islands outside of Brisbane. um They fought against all their might to like get into the land over a couple of nights. Once they hit shore, um they were quickly met by the Aboriginal people of Moreton Island. really beautiful part of the story is about how that aboriginal those Aboriginal, that community there, brought them in to their ways, taught them how to live off the land, fed them.
00:28:05
Speaker
um, you know, really welcome them, which is quite beautiful. Um, these three guys kind of had a little internal tiff. One of them wanted to stay, two of them wanted to go. um and you know, they were on the Island for, I think about three months and they borrowed a canoe. They set, they set off two of these guys and they coincided with, you know, John Oxley, who happened to be surveying the area at the time.
00:28:29
Speaker
um And, you know, there's this just real raw beauty, this coastal castaway kind of spirit, this spirit of freedom and adventure that these guys kind of lived. And it made sense for us to name felons after these guys. And particularly now we look at our our second home here at Manly Wharf.
00:28:48
Speaker
It's almost like a retracing of the steps that these felons took. um So, yeah, for a bit of context, that's why we're called felons, thanks to their spirit of adventure and and um and freedom.
00:29:00
Speaker
And, yeah, i think I think when it comes to... You know, it's one thing to have that idea, one thing to have that story, but you really need ah you need to tie that to the reason why you're doing what you're doing. um And we're really agile.
00:29:16
Speaker
We're pretty adventurous. um And, you know, that's just what it takes to to really, you know, be be at this kind of level is you need to be constantly delivering amazing events,
00:29:29
Speaker
different beer releases, different kind of social media activity, great internal culture amongst the team. You know, where we work we all work really hard. We've got a really great team. So it kind of feels fitting that we're able to live those values that those felons did on that timber boat. And then how did Manly come about? Was that something that the guys had sort of um their eyes on for a long time? Or did it, it an opportunity that arose and you're like, this would be great now. Or we've sort of worked out what felons can be in Brisbane.
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah, good question. i think um I think it ticked, like Manly Wharf ultimately just kind of ticked a few boxes. There was that kind of brand journey box that I mentioned earlier um about kind of retracing the steps of felons.
00:30:15
Speaker
um You know, it looks like Manly Wharf as a precinct had a bit of an opportunity to be revitalised. It had an opportunity to have some fresh energy, some fresh life breathed into it.
00:30:28
Speaker
um And the boys seen that opportunity and and ultimately just thought, you know, let's let's go for it. Manly is an incredible community. It's filled with...
00:30:38
Speaker
such a immense kind of group of, you know, pretty genuine people. um You know, it's paradise. There's a beach for every day of the week, depending on which way the wind blows. There's so many different little secret beaches and harbours.
00:30:53
Speaker
um So, yeah, it just it just ticked a few boxes and we we we went for it and... officially settled around Anzac Day 2024. We put in a whole bunch of work about six months before that.
00:31:07
Speaker
And yeah, the last kind of two years, coming up to two years has been, you know, a bit of a journey. was gonna say, was easy a second time around? Because obviously, I guess,
00:31:18
Speaker
the Brisbane Riverside and this one both have logistical you know and top topographical challenges. when Was it easier or or was it is was it just as much of a nightmare sort of getting stuff in and fitting it all?
00:31:30
Speaker
Well, particularly for the brewery, and and i'm I'm sure it flows through to the HOSPO as well from what I've seen, um but my focus has been more on brewery equipment and the install there. The Brisbane site I'd consider basically a greenfield site. So it was, it was while it was it's all heritage building, it was pulled down, new floor laid, new drains put down, you know, and then the frame went back up, the original frame, but it's all strengthened with steel. So a new build and an old build at the same time. But, um you know, always better for putting a brewery into a new,
00:31:58
Speaker
facility. This is very much a brownfield site here in Manly. So it's, you know, it's a bit of a um a rat's nest of of wires through the roof that, you know, you need to track out where they're going and figure things out. Like there's, ah there's it's hard, it has been hard work um to do it. and And a lot of projects concurrently as well. We always operate it at, you know, 200 miles an hour. um so um It's funny, you think like on paper, it it feels like something that should be easier.
00:32:25
Speaker
um You know, and I think that's the allure for a lot of people in business is like, oh, if we do it again, we'll have all the learnings from the first time, it'll be way easier. But um it's pretty far from the truth. It's just new problems, mate, new learnings to be had. So it's, um you know, a new community. yeah Like to Tom's point, working within the constraints you know,
00:32:47
Speaker
you know, the the buildings that we have here is pretty was pretty challenging. You know, height of the height of the roof, how we would even get the brewery into place. um You know, what we do with different venues, you know, sometimes there was moments where where we didn't want to, you know, go down the journey of a DA for an evolution of a site. So that meant that we had to be pretty constrained on how we created a new space within an existing space.
00:33:16
Speaker
Um, yeah. And in terms of the growth path, uh, you've obviously, hospitality is a big part of that because you have two impressive venues in two cities, but do you still see wholesale as a way forward?
Felons' Brand Strategy and Online Presence
00:33:29
Speaker
Because a lot breweries don't, um, whether they've got one venue or they've, they've expanded into multiple venues, like Wholesale is pretty hard. And I imagine it's potentially tricky for you guys because you're part of this hospitality precinct. So that could make it a bit more challenging to get into pubs and have some of those conversations with pubs. You might see, you know, the the precinct as ah as a direct competitor.
00:33:51
Speaker
that There definitely have been, um in in the past, those conversations have come up, you know, what why would I help you guys if you've come in and been taking all my customers? um But it's, you know, we we we try to kill people with kindness. We're not, we're not um we believe a rising tide floats all boats, especially with hospitality. If you're creating a precinct, you're creating tourism, you're creating a reason to come to Brisbane, then, and you know, everyone can benefit if you're... work together. um But we still we still um we're still looking at hospitality at um wholesale very seriously. um But we try to do it pretty pretty lean. you know Cost can add up really quick, as I'm sure most people listening to this would know with freight and and salespeople and cars and the the requirements, rebates, discounts, things you need to do to to play the game. um But we just look for the smart opportunities, the smart deals. we We also, you know, there's a part of that that, you know, used to be, going back to Little Creatures, used to be that we'd say in Little Creatures, the venue was the living billboard where people go and have a great experience and that would generate
00:34:52
Speaker
sales outside then of the venue in wholesale and we're almost looking at it kind of in a in a reversal at this point whereas it okay if we get felons out there into the wholesale into some thought leading venues and just some great bottle shops we're hopeful that drives football fall down to the venue and in a sort of reverse um way so so we just again the way we the way we consider it is probably different to how we thought we would have considered it eight years ago but it's very much a ah part of our business model and we we push pretty hard to um to get into good some good spaces um ah Talking of killing with kindness, I know and in a so similar sense when you first sort of moved into Brisbane, obviously it was a bigger operation than any other sort of independent brewery there. There were a few noises maybe from the people that like to make noises around the beer community about yeah who are these people coming in from outside you know stomping all over our ground kind of thing. But you do seem to become very well integrated within the beer community over time. like
00:35:45
Speaker
I guess, were you aware of that and how did you go about sort of, you know, assuring I guess, assuring people that you were you were good guys? Yeah. I mean, it's it's hard, especially in the online world, as I'm sure you guys would know more than most, you know, it's um people conduct themselves in ways they probably wouldn't conduct themselves face to face. So um it it has been hard and I feel mostly for the for my team of, of um you know, brewers and and marketing team and all all the people we have in hospital that that work really hard and they're proud of what they do and they have longstanding careers. They're very intelligent. They're qualified. They make fantastic beer. provide great experiences and for people to just sling shit at them on the internet, I feel for them.
00:36:25
Speaker
You know, it's like, you you don't deserve that. you're You're operating a world-class facility here. The beers are winning medals in the war in um you know ARVAs and and other awards. You should feel really proud of yourself. So, um yeah, it's hard to... whether you engage and try to turn the ship or you just accept these people exist and you move on, I'm probably more the latter these days. um But, you know, you try to engage with good good um people out there in the industry in Brisbane, which we have. And, i've got ah um you know, you broaden your network and get to know people. And they're the people that kind of jump to your defence online or say, hey, guys, no, think of it this way. And that's that's probably the best way yeah for things to go. if you engage yourself –
00:37:05
Speaker
you can get into that rabbit hole of, you know, all of a sudden they like they come for you a bit harder. Yeah. And I almost, I almost, um, stand by the belief system and try and encourage everybody in the business to just be genuine, be authentic. We're real people. We've, we've come through this industry working really hard.
00:37:24
Speaker
Um, you know, we just try and share that with everybody as much as possible along the way. Um, yes, we've got incredible iconic assets, um in terms of like where we're located and and the hospitality experiencing experience that we're trying to provide. But we're also real people and, you know, um we really challenge the team on showing up every day and trying to be the best version of themselves. And, you know, um there is the thought process behind when people do that, that that rubs off and and people really appreciate what youre what you're doing. And, you know, we've found particularly with with moving into Manly,
00:38:02
Speaker
you know, that's a pretty big change. It's almost like a big shock to the local community. And, you know, i just, you know, one one foot in front of the other, we just made sure that we were standing by our values, we were showing up, we were supporting some of the heroes in the community through, you know, either sponsoring a big wave surfer that's come come up through the ranks, Tommy Myers, or whether it's supporting the local Manly Lifesaving Club.
00:38:29
Speaker
or the the neighborhood center. um We just really made sure that we've shown up across the board for the community. They're the reason why we exist. So why not you know be active and share that with the world along the way? And then what we found is pretty quickly is a lot of ah lot of um people kind of come around to, OK, I see what you're doing. i appreciate what you're doing. There's a bit more kind of respect and openness towards that change.
00:38:57
Speaker
um Yeah, it's an interesting idea because to do something new, to bring a brand from somewhere else to somewhere like Manly, you know, like I can, ah we can appreciate how that would be almost a bit overwhelming to many people. So you just got to walk the walk and make sure that, you know, you're demonstrating the right, the right kind of outlook and behavior. Yeah.
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess the latest addition at Manly is the Barrel Room. And you mentioned the Barrel Hall in Brisbane before as well. and I think it's pretty you know well established that as there's been a bit of a downturn or plateau or whatever in the you know so craft beer industry and certainly with wholesale whatever, um the sort of more esoteric, high-value beers have, you know, and brands that are based around that have, you know, struggled to extent. Like obviously Wildflare, was taking a pause in a few weeks' time. no Black Arts down here in Melbourne closed a while back.
00:39:50
Speaker
But you still maintain this barrel program. You must have, what you know, one of last few remaining significant barrel programs. Like, how have you managed that within, I'm sure it's a very small part of the the whole enterprise, but, you know, but were there times where you're like going, just leave the barrels up there, they look nice when we bring people in for gigs, let's look let us's not worry about it. Or it's always been like, no, this is this isn't, maybe it's one of your non-negotiables that you still have to keep making, you know, the barrel-aged beers.
00:40:15
Speaker
yeah Absolutely. I mean, that that is that would be one of ours to have a barrel haul. You know, we we we believe in in being genuine and and in what we're doing. So um we'll continue to do it. I mean, it is um it works for us as a supplementary, you know, as an upsell, in a you know, lack of a better term to to offer people a more premium premium product. um it's It's great. It excites our brewers, which is probably one of the better things. you know It's keeping them interested and and, oh, what's happening here and so learning something new, myself included, you know learning about barrels and and wood and and you know all these different cultures that you're generally trying to keep out of the brewery. All of a sudden, you're embracing them and and bringing them in. It still makes me feel a bit funny. but um
00:40:58
Speaker
You know, it's um it's it's got a lot of those great things. i i think for us, we we don't rely on it. It's probably where it works for us. We're we're very focused in um providing a great hospitality experience with um a range of beers, a range of products and a range of food yeah that we can offer to anyone so we can we can curate the ultimate experience for them.
00:41:17
Speaker
Yeah, we wanted to, um like the main driver behind why we wanted to, you know, kick kick off the barrel aged beer program was, you know, we had an opportunity to to make felons bigger in Brisbane during COVID. It was a bit of a COVID pivot pivot. And, you know, we couldn't rest on the idea of just making felons bigger and just doing like a pizza oven in there and just kind of rinsing and repeating exactly what was happening next door. We are a little bit more creative and we challenge ourselves a bit more than that. So for us, we were like, okay, well, let's start this new spiritual home. Let's unearth this side of the brand and the business, which, you know, talks to this really complex craft, this side of beer that, you know,
00:42:03
Speaker
is is so long winded and has so much technical kind of prowess to it. um We're aware that it speaks to a pretty small percentage of our audience and you know the beer consumer in the country. However, how cool and how rock and roll to take our largest space and you know fill it with 20,000 liters plus of barrel aged beer on the walls, have a live music venue in the middle of it um where the different musicians are kind of serenading the beer. I don't know. We just kind of got caught up in how rock and roll it was. And now we've just, to Tom's point, we just do it in a way that, that, um, you know, works, works well with, with the product mix and, and what we're doing around the brewery. You just, um,
00:42:47
Speaker
You know, I can appreciate that sometimes it's definitely a lot of work for a pretty small kind of um financial kind of return. However, it is a bit of a it's a bit of a crown as well, like a crown on the brewery. So, yeah, it's important. It's important in the overall mix. We don't we want to make sure that we're demonstrating that we're not just a one trick pony and just make approachable beers. We want to be able to kind of demonstrate a bit more skill and and prowess.
00:43:16
Speaker
And is this sort of it for venues for the moment? Are you looking
Future Plans and Audience Engagement
00:43:20
Speaker
in other cities? I'm wondering if Artemis maybe wants to solve the problem that is Melbourne's Docklands that's, that's you know, a lo almost destroyed many venues in the past, if if you want to take that on.
00:43:32
Speaker
Man, Docklands is a tricky one. I know that firsthand. um Look, we've got so much work to do at Manly Wharf. We're not thinking about the next thing yet. um But who knows? you know like it could It could definitely be another precinct, another felon somewhere. um We'd never rule that out. We're so into...
00:43:51
Speaker
um the team and the culture and what we're cultivating and creating and and and the brand which has come out of all of that energy so you know we're passionate and excited about growing it so who knows what that looks like nice well we'll take a quick break and we'll be right back cheers
00:44:09
Speaker
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00:44:24
Speaker
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00:44:35
Speaker
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00:44:48
Speaker
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00:45:01
Speaker
Welcome back, guys. and I guess sort of moving more broadly from Felons itself, um I think it's fair to say out the indie sort of craft beer sector has been so scrambling for ways to find a new audience for a number of years now. um And I guess, you know, the Felons set up the locations, the, you know, the broad and approach, you know, i guess, um come one can all sort approach probably brings in a lot of new people. um Is that sort of part of the mission to sort of bring new people into craft beer or is craft beer just part of let let's just get people into Felons kind of thing?
00:45:29
Speaker
um I mean, personally, I still get a big kick out of converting people. um You know, i love I love hosting tastings and and there's always ah there's always one person that's like, I'm not a beer drinker. And I say, challenge accepted because beer isn't all you think it is. You know, it's this broad dynamic thing. That's where barrel aged can really come into play or just one of our fruited sours or, you know, various things we make that that challenge the palate in different ways that, um you know, so so definitely, yeah, there's there's ah there's a part of that for us. Yeah.
00:45:58
Speaker
But I think like we like we said earlier in in the piece, um it's about creating that memorable but memorable experience with all of the tools at our disposal and and and treating all of them equally. So the beer absolutely is is a part of that.
00:46:10
Speaker
But um so is the sequence of service and so is the food offering and so is the ambience of the venue and um how it's maintained. So is the staff education and how they present themselves. it's it's all a part of creating that memorable experience. And I'd say that would be a beacon for us is that people come to Felons and you have a fucking shit hot time um and you walk away thinking, wow, that was that was great. I'm coming back and to tell my friends. Yeah, some energy about it. And, you know, it almost feels infectious.
00:46:36
Speaker
and And do you sort of hope that then that will drive people, if but maybe if they haven't had craft beer before to go, ah yeah this is this's probably the first brew pub that many people have been to. And, you know, it's very, very clear that you are pouring your own beers, even if you don't go into the barrel hall and see all the barrels or whatever, it's you know it's very much part of the experience. So do you hope that they kind of go, oh, my first brew pub, that was really cool. I'm going to go and find some more. Do you reckon it takes a bit more than that to sort of, you know, push, nudge people down that sort of journey?
00:47:04
Speaker
m Good question. I kind of feel like there's a bit of a, like, you know, I've found because, you know, in my experience being on that more marketing brand sales kind of side, hospitality side, um there's almost like a pretty pretty kind of radical thought process that needs to be applied to how you look at the way the industry is working. It's almost like a bit of a paradigm shift. I don't really like refer like the sensibilities of craft around what beers we make, how we make them, you know, that value, that belief system, the philosophy that's all there and it's stronger than ever.
00:47:45
Speaker
And we have a really clear idea of, you know, the beer is the hero and everything that we do revolves around, you know, that that art form and us kind of creating something and wanting to share that with people. However, the application of how we apply that to people and connect with people and amplify that message. It's like you got the, the rule books out the window. You've got to be pretty radical. It's a full paradigm shift. I feel like it needs to be really fun, energetic. I think, you know, beer is not going anywhere. Beer has never really gone anywhere.
00:48:19
Speaker
um I think we've got this incredible opportunity around our accessible, you know, on tap kind of options and flavours, you know, the crisp lager, for example, during the journey of us kind of creating a new hospitality space called Felon's Seafood here at Manly Wharf.
00:48:39
Speaker
um which is a bar and dining room for felons. So it's a slightly elevated kind of experience for a brewery. um You know, it's a bit of a w risk, bit of a challenge, bit of a crazy thing for us to do with the beer brand. But it all underpinned, that whole reason for creating that venue was underpinned by us creating a new way to serve our lager. And it was a super cold, like it was basically like a super cold tap that we We designed, we spent years kind of developing. um We used a stainless steel foundry in Brisbane because we didn't have enough time to take it offshore. And it was really cool to find you know an Australian company that could help us pour these beer fonts.
00:49:22
Speaker
um and you know we we set up this uh bespoke glycol system basically the result was we were able to pour our lager at negative two degrees so if you come to felon seafood at manly wharf you can get a negative two degree uh crisp lager which i think is one of the coldest beers in the country so is there a risk that your tongue gets stuck to the glass like in dumb and dumber Oh man, that's probably a good little ad for it. ah so I'll invoice you later when it wasn't done. Thanks for that one, James. um You know, and I feel like that's that's an example of the application, you know, like we we come from a background in beer where we were told, you know, the the right way to drink beer is at a slightly warmer temperature. But i think I think the rule book's out the window. You've got to try a whole bunch of different and techniques. have fun with it it's just beer you know like this is a beer industry it's founded on having um having a moment of escapism relaxation so i don't know kind of find we're jamming on that and that's that tends to to kind of connect with a broader audience and bring people through
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I guess do you think it's, you know, more important than ever to really inject that like sort of theatre of beer? You know, we talk about a lot on the podcast, but where Guinness is at, like it's such an experience buying one you've got to wait for it and things like that. If you can do that with other styles, I do think potentially maybe there's some growth there that you can tap into. Yeah, theatre has always been, um you know, that that dovetails straight into
Felons' Cultural Contributions and Collaborations
00:50:52
Speaker
experience. So if you can really nail that, people love it.
00:50:56
Speaker
And what about the other experiences? Obviously live music's a big part of what you do. Again, it's not a very yeah healthy space potentially at the moment. um It's harder and harder to put events on, big festivals, whether they're beer or music. Like you guys seem to have still kept doing it. How are you making it work?
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think – You know, we started the great artists market, which is it a slight little sidestep from the live music piece. But for us, the reason why we we created this artists market. So basically we run it three times a year in Brisbane. We're looking at how we get it off the ground at Manly Wharf. It's a platform for 70 local artists who who make their goods in their own garage or at home studio, or that maybe they've got their offsite kind of studio, it doesn't really matter. But it was an opportunity for us to create a platform for 70 other creatives that we felt like we shared a bit of a philosophy with. So the same thing kind of extends to live music.
00:51:59
Speaker
um we love We love artistry in its many forms. We love live music and the experience around being around a live performance, whether it's you know a rock and roll band, a jazz night or a DJ set.
00:52:12
Speaker
um And I think a lot can be said around creating the right experience for that for that forum. um The venue feels really great. It's dimly lit. It's got this glowing red kind of vibe about it.
00:52:25
Speaker
um The audio system that we put into Felon's Barrel Room is is like cutting edge um it's one of the best sound systems for a venue of that size in sydney um so when you when you're in there like the sound is really full it's not loud it just feels full you can kind of feel it through through your body which is pretty cool so yeah i think it's just getting that little detail right um seems to be working well for us and You know, it's it it it is a challenge to sell tickets to things. um
00:52:58
Speaker
But, you know, we're just trying to get that curation right and make sure that we've got the right acts, the right day of the week. We're talking to the right audience. There's a whole bunch of kind of things that need to fall in a line for it to work.
00:53:11
Speaker
But we believe in it, as I'm sure you can feel from my passion in talking. So, yeah, it's kind of a non-negotiable. Now, it's nice to hear another brewery putting so much effort into the sound system at their live venue. I know when the other side, like the Triple One Three Group opened, Frio Social, they brought in Tame Impala's tour production guy to design the sound at Frio Social. A guy who writes for us in WA was at a DJ Shadow gig late last year. And apparently, midway through the set, he stopped and he went, I just want to say, how good is the sound at this place? You got something like that. So it's worth investing that time and money, I think, when people appreciate it.
00:53:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. That's it. um And I guess you know as well as um sort of collaborating with you know other producers, and yeah you say the same with the great artist market, you know is that what's what's the benefit for sort of felons for working across these um you know different partnerships? And is that sort of something that you think is sort of essential for the beer beer industry as it's trying to find you know a new audience and you know new connections?
00:54:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think um it works for us. I think every every kind of brand out there or brewery out there needs to maybe do a 360 on themselves and just make sure they've got like a really solid positioning, a who, what, when, where, why are you doing what you're doing? I think, you know, weve we we put so much work into that.
00:54:33
Speaker
um And we get everybody together and we make sure everybody's aligned on that page. And that's that's what makes those activations work really well for us is that everybody's aligned. It makes sense. It it directly delivers to the reason for being.
00:54:49
Speaker
um You know, it obviously has some revenue driving, um you know, elements to it, which is important because that's how you keep the lights on and all that. um So, yeah, I think I think if the question was like, what should I be doing?
00:55:07
Speaker
it would be you know what why do you do what you do and why do you love what you're doing um and how do you find other creative ways to you know network um you know a really fantastic thing about the artist market which we didn't even realize when we started when we set out to do it was these 70 artists they've all got like incredible followings on on instagram and really devote um you know fans of what they do and they're all talking about this market they're doing at felons and there's this really beautiful kind of ripple effect and this this conversation that's happening um yeah i think i think there's some beauty out there just have been a bit creative tom does that work on the beer side of things as well like i mean are there you know beer styles you won't do at felons or or step away from or ones you want to focus on more with the team <unk> sort of around that philosophy of sort of knowing who you are
00:56:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we um we don't really have any any hard rules. You know, we we like to, as Dean mentioned earlier, stay pretty agile and and and listen to the customer. um I think all breweries can get caught in a trap where the brewers start making beer for themselves. And that's where you need, that there's a bit of a watch out there. Someone needs to put the customer at the table and go, okay, this is just a, you know. Says the man with the giant barrel program. yeah um And he's after a beer, like, what do you think he would like? And and and we go down that path.
00:56:32
Speaker
That's so true. I think in terms of collaboration, like I've done a lot of collaborations over the years and, and um you know, you do... we we We actually look more now collaborating with our beers in in people in other industries because you know you can get quite insulated, especially in craft beer. We've been doing it for a while now and you're sort of see having the same ideas and the same the same brew days and the same experiences. And when you broaden that out to to you know even just one step apart to the spirits industry. And and so we had we had a collaboration with Madre Mezcal. which is one of our most successful and and and gets you thinking in a different way about things and just stimulates different parts of your mind. um But, you know, beyond that, to, you know, collaborate with an ice cream brand or collaborate with, you know, just, just it broadens, A, who who you're um sort of, who's hearing what you're doing and B, it broadens your way of thinking and production and manufacturing and and creating flavours and quality you know, to advance and progress and and grow, you know, stimulates growth. So I encourage people to sort of step out of that that bubble a bit of, um you know, it's great to collaborate with your friends and and and do a collaboration brew, but but take a step out and think, all right, well, why am I doing this and and how is it going to best benefit my business and my people? How could it be more compelling? Yeah.
00:57:45
Speaker
And I guess it's almost an extension of that, leaning on your sort of years experience within beer and hospitality. If you would sort of offer advice to other people out out there so sort of, you know, looking to broaden their audience. So what are the sort the key things you think, you know, brew pub owners or brewery owners should be focusing on in the current climate? And there's I guess the change climate from what it was five or 10 years ago?
00:58:06
Speaker
I think the answer is definitely not spending more money. um a lot of people think that, you know, ah i just don't have enough money. Otherwise, it would all work. It's not that it's just energy.
00:58:19
Speaker
um Energy is almost a currency in this space. um And I think it's just noting down, you know, the 30 different things you could possibly be doing. um and know it sounds like a lot that can be quite overwhelming for a lot of people. I just carve out a bit of time and go, okay, what are the 30 different things I could be doing for this for this business, for this brand, for this product that could just, yeah, build a bit of resonance out there.
00:58:44
Speaker
And what about from a beer perspective, Tom? um in terms of broadening. Oh, yeah, just what you think people should be focusing on, on you know, because it's but probably a bit of a challenge now either, you know, retaining or expanding your audience.
00:58:57
Speaker
It is a challenge. Make ginger beer. Yeah, well, mate. Ginger beer and hazy IPA. That's right. That's about where we're at at the moment. um I think, yeah, I think –
00:59:13
Speaker
It's important, like we've we've all been on this journey, right, over the last 15, 20 years of of watching the beer scene and you can sometimes be too close to it, but in other ways, you're also the exact demographic. You know, I'm i'm very different person to i was the person I was 10 years ago that had more disposable income and more time and and that passion was fresh and live. and and you know Whereas now I enjoy having an ice cold lager with Dino on the front and and not overthinking things too much, not trying to smell too much aroma or or get too much out of it. And it's more the experience. and i'm I'm sort of um um coming from out of here to being up here in love. And I think a lot of people are heading in that way. so um
00:59:48
Speaker
I think if you're going to do one thing, it would be, you know, focusing on on rituals or theatre or that in the hospitality space with the beer to to lift it up. Don't just rely on here's our latest um style we've released from the brewers. like that That is just um seems to be just wearing a little thin with people and not generating the excitement that builds to footfall, which builds to, you know, transactions and and selling beer. um But to think of those creative things, creative partnerships you can do to to broaden your um your brand reach. um yeah like we just we just released a raspberry sour which had 150 kilos of raspberries and a two and a half thousand liter batch pretty jammy pretty sweet pretty refreshing got that nice true raspberry flavor because the guys worked really hard on getting the best fruit they could get their hands on um the beer was really expensive to make as you can imagine because raspberries are really expensive um but it's like bright pink it's like
01:00:44
Speaker
almost like a deep kind of ruby pink red color. And i don't know, stuff like that kind of, um I think is a good example of like have a crack at some things, some different things. I know making a raspberry sour doesn't sound like it's the most imaginative thing and that lots of breweries have been doing that for a long time. You know, i think of Boat Rock and Miss Pinky as, you know, an incredible example of that beer and one that I've drunk many a liter of.
01:01:10
Speaker
um But, you know, i think there's still lots of people out there that have never heard of that concept. um And yeah, there's there's a bit of sharing sharing the word of that style out there that you can still do. um Yeah, you know, guinness Guinness is such an incredible um example.
01:01:31
Speaker
You know, I've heard from multiple people it's like the fastest growing beer worldwide. um I went to... um this pub in London in Soho, what's it called? The Devonshire, who's apparently is like the largest Guinness account in Europe.
01:01:47
Speaker
um And they have like five Guinness taps side by side. All they do is focus on Guinness. You know, that was such a masterclass in like keeping things simple um and getting behind something that's working. The Guinness tasted pretty good there. um You know, things like Schooner Scorer, who we all know, a bit of a beer influencer. He's doing some really great work, I feel like, in our in our kind of category. He's kind of transcending a bit of a gap between, you know, real craft beer-centric people and everyday people that like beer. Yeah.
01:02:27
Speaker
Yeah, i I feel like something that I took away from my experience at Little Creatures was how much work that Little Creatures put into educating the consumer and doing in a way that wasn't like schooling them, like having fun with that and connecting tastes with with palates around around the country. You know, there was an old there's an old technique that that Little Creatures used to do, which was shout the whole bar of beer, like get your keg on at this new bar.
01:02:56
Speaker
um It was a bit of the East Coast strategy, give to keg to the venue, give half of it, you know, to the to the punters to get liquid on lips and then, you know, give the other half to the venue to make a bit of money in the till.
01:03:08
Speaker
um And that that I think still to this day stands as a pretty awesome sales technique and ah and a way to kind of broaden broaden the market for the consumer for you. Yeah, cool. And so stepping to one side a little bit, um we did a story recently on the beer championships, this sort of new beer competition launched by Jane Lewis and Justin Fox.
Upcoming Beer Championships and Industry Impact
01:03:28
Speaker
Now you mentioned to me when I was chatting to them, Tom, you're one of the ah the ambassadors. Can you tell us bit more about sort of your involvement there and sort of what you you make of this new idea? Yeah, that's what would love to
01:03:40
Speaker
It's very exciting, um fundamentally, and it and it excited me hearing about it. So um pass through but i've've I've been judging in AIBA's Indies State comps for quite a while now. and And Jane was my very first um table captain and was very kind to me for a nervous young man sitting at the table feeling like i was going to say all the wrong things. so um That was a lovely experience. i got a I got a soft spot for Jane. And obviously everything Justin's done for competitions across the whole nation, it's his time in head judge. and in multiple different comps so there's a couple of superstars there um in the the beer competition space um haven't haven't really been braved on what i can or can't say so i'll just i'm just going to let it out mate what i thought i understand the comp to be and why it excites me um you know and love the aibas not just getting what they do um we've been entering our beers and then for since we started felons and prior to that with little creatures um But I believe the beer championships will be um more more retailer focused. So so um as opposed to getting medals and using that in your branding to then generate, you know, hopefully more sales. That's what we we want at the end of the day. um And to get that feedback from the judges about where you might change your beers to suit so styles. Beer championships may have some, you know, connectivity to if if you were to win a trophy or win a a medal, um that could have a real ramification to your business. It's like, cool, we can we can have this listed now in...
01:05:03
Speaker
certain retailers so i believe that's what they're working towards and i don't want to speak out of turn if if you know um things are things are moving differently no we'll get them on for a chat before before they open for submissions but do you understand what your sort of role as an um but ambassador is you know you've got to go and sort of you know you've got to go and get excited about it exactly and i'm excited so um and and conceptually changes so i guess and and not it's it's not really um Not many consumers, I think, know too much about the awards and their current iteration in Australia. And we in the industry know them very intimately and we love going, connecting on the night having a great time. But moving to more of an Olympic style, a gold medal is a gold medal, whereas traditionally a lot of beer competitions around, especially in Australia, But around the world, you know, a whole medley of beers in a category, let's say Australian Pale Ale, you could have 10 to 20 gold medals in that category of gold medal winning beers. So it doesn't necessarily have to be limited to one, whereas the beer championships moving to a model where, you know, it would whittle it all away until you are the gold medal beer in the country. And that holds a bit more weight and it feels, you know, a bit more premium and a...
01:06:12
Speaker
something about it for me that has entered a lot and judged a lot that felt quite quite exciting. And I think having someone like Justin um and Jane there that intimately know the the drawbacks of competitions and what they've seen in the past and struggled to change in other competitions, giving them free reign to go, this is how we're going to do feedback, this is how we're going to simplify everything for the judges and the table captains, because being a table captain is so fucking onerous on but on the competition days um you know you're just trying to get everyone's feedback together and get five minds agreeing on one thing over and over and over so they know all that and they know what will will make a really fantastic well-run competition um so yeah there's it's it's early days like i said and you know they've they've shared bits with me um but i'm excited you guys are talking to them they'll do a much better job than i can of of celebrating what they're doing and what they're working towards. But when I heard about it, I just thought, yes, like I've been wanting this for we've been wanting this for a long, long time, this sort of style of competition, which is very World Beer Cup in in America, that sort of single medal for each category. um
01:07:15
Speaker
So yeah, and just just to shake things up a little bit and mix things up for the industry. I think it's a really, really good step. And I'm i'm looking forward to seeing what I can pull off. Great. And before we wrap up, um what else is exciting you in the beer world other than negative two degree pints and... I was right back there the moment you said that. was like it is It is that one at the moment, especially because I've just landed in Sydney and it's the only place we have it. So I'll be having one this evening.
01:07:41
Speaker
We've got some pretty cool stuff I'm excited about in our barrel-aged beer program. I'm still i'm still a bit um smitten by a good, long-aged barrel-aged beer.
01:07:52
Speaker
um We've got like a double release coming up in March, um one that's got a bit of a cola kind of character to it, another one that's got yuzu used to in it.
01:08:04
Speaker
Um, Yeah, i don't know. i think I think the wonderful world and the wonderful broad landscape that it is. you know i love the i love the options.
01:08:15
Speaker
Love a negative two degree crisp lager. um you know Another beer that we've done recently was the Japanese rice lager where every glass consumed, um thanks to a partnership we're formed with Seabin here in Sydney Harbour, each glass of the Japanese rice lager consumed um directly removes plastic out of Sydney Harbour. pretty cool so i love i love getting in as many of those as i can because you know i'm doing my bit and throwing the cans in the ocean afterwards to get the impact itself it's self sorts itself out um i think and one other thing a barrel aged lager for just a just a personal passion project of mine um
01:08:57
Speaker
there's There's something to it. it's such ah' such an interesting way to showcase what barrel aging can do to a beer when you take something as as very as simple um and approachable as as a well-made lager and just put it into barrel for six to eight weeks. It just showcases what, and it's a really great way to present to people um side by side and go, here's our crisp lager made in stainless steel, way we've been making it for a long time. Here's our barrel aged lager and give them a feel for, okay, it's like got a pillowy, marshmallow-y feel, these vanillins coming through, a bit of the whiskey from the residue of the barrel. It's just ah a really nice segue to help build that um that sort of category of beers for us. Great. Well, Dean and Tom, thank you so much for joining us.
01:09:36
Speaker
Thank you. Thanks for having us, guys. Always a pleasure. Lovely seeing your faces. Absolutely. Cheers, guys.
01:09:44
Speaker
The Crafty Pint podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer-related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com, and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
01:09:58
Speaker
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01:10:14
Speaker
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