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Episode 265: 'No Place Like Home' with Ariel Ramchandani and Seyward Darby
171 Plays3 years ago
Ariel Ramchandani (@arielramch) and Seyward Darby (@seywarddarby) stop by the show to talk about "No Place Like Home," the podcast they're producing with The Atavist Magazine and Cadence 13.
It tells the story of the stolen ruby slippers.
Social Media:@CNFPod
Support: patreon.com/cnfpod
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, welcome to the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. How's it going?
00:00:10
Speaker
It's that Atavistian time of the month, so it's nice to welcome back Sayward Darby, the editor-in-chief of The Atavist, but also Ariel Ramchandani, freelance writer, but both are in partnership with Cadence 13 and are producing No Place Like Home, an original narrative podcast about
Feature: Sayward Darby & Ariel Ramchandani on Stolen Slippers
00:00:34
Speaker
Dorothy's stolen ruby red slippers and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts if Wizard of Oz is your thing and These kind of things are your thing then subscribe and do the thing
Sponsorship & Conference Announcements
00:00:54
Speaker
But first, support for the Creative Nonfiction podcast is brought to you by West Virginia Wesleyan College's low residency MFA in creative writing. Now in its 10th year, this affordable program boasts a low student to faculty ratio and a strong sense of community. Recent CNF faculty include Randin Billings Noble, Jeremy Jones, and CNF pod alums Sarah Einstein. There's also fiction and poetry tracks with recent faculty including Ashley Bryant Phillips,
00:01:20
Speaker
and Jacinda Townsend as well as Diane Gilliam and Savannah Sipple. No matter your discipline, if you're looking to up your craft or learn a new one, consider West Virginia Wesleyan right in the heart of Appalachia. Visit mfa.wvewc.edu for more information and dates of enrollment.
00:01:40
Speaker
And from now until August, I plan on giving the loudest of shout outs to HIPAA Camp 2021. It's back in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Registration is ongoing at the moment. It's a conference for creative nonfiction writers, CNF-ers like you. Marion Winnick is this year's keynote speaker. There's debut CNF author panels featuring Lily Danziger, Greg Mania, Carol Smith, and Janine Willett.
00:02:06
Speaker
Conference takes place August 13th to 15th, you dig? Use that promo code CNFPOD21 to get $50 off your registration fee, all right?
Meet Ariel Ramchandani & Sayward Darby
00:02:18
Speaker
So Arielle Ramchandani at Arielle Ramch on Twitter, that's A-R-I-E-L-R-A-M-C-H is a freelance writer whose stories have appeared in The Atavist, The Atlantic, and The Guardian.
00:02:33
Speaker
Sayward, as you know, is the author of Sisters in Hate and is the editor-in-chief of the Adivus. So we get into why the Adivus decided to do a podcast. So why wait? Here we go.
00:02:57
Speaker
what the show's about and, you know, what that genesis of the show was or is. Ooh. Ariel, would you like me to take that question or would you like to take that question? Why don't you start and I'll come in. Tag on. Yeah.
How Did the Podcast Idea Spark?
00:03:12
Speaker
So I guess that makes sense because the genesis in some ways was an email that I sent to Ariel almost three years ago now. I read a link. Ariel today reminded me that it was a CNN link.
00:03:25
Speaker
about the theft of a pair of the ruby slippers from the Wizard of Oz. They had been taken in 2005 from the Judy Garland Museum in the small town of Grand Rapids, Minnesota, and the article I was reading about was documenting the return of the slippers. And Ariel and I had been kicking around, me as an editor, Ariel as a freelance writer, had been kicking around ideas about
00:03:49
Speaker
kind of like quirky crime stories, something where, you know, it wasn't all like murder and mayhem, but something a little more in like a subculture that an activist story hadn't really tackled lately. And so I sent her the link. And that was three years ago.
00:04:06
Speaker
No, she got to work really fast. And we originally thought it was just going to be a normal out of a story, like a written story.
Exploring Podcast Themes: Oz & Garland
00:04:15
Speaker
And the entire time we were working on it in those early days, we were like, man, like, this would make a great podcast.
00:04:21
Speaker
Because the story is about this, I mean, certainly the theft and the return and how all of that happened. But it was also about the Wizard of Oz. It was about Judy Garland. It was about the film memorabilia community. And it was about this small town. And the reason the Judy Garland Museum is in this small town is because it is Judy Garland's hometown. And so there was also this layer of the story that was about her relationship with the place where she was from.
00:04:46
Speaker
So we just kept thinking, man, you know, this would make a great podcast. And lo and behold, um, ultimately cadence 13, a great production company bought it. And Arielle's just been reporting the hell out of it.
Producing the Podcast: A Journey
00:05:00
Speaker
It's been been cranking. Yeah. Um, originally when they were telling me the link, I was really excited because I, I just love weird crime and sort of like place-based crime. I called grand rapids. I called the wrong grand rapids. Um, everyone calls grand rapids Michigan.
00:05:16
Speaker
And I think I was on a plane like three weeks later to Minnesota, kind of poking around the museum. And it just felt so rich and so fun. And there were all these sort of worlds along the way that, you know, even when we were thinking about it as a story, we were like, how do we break it up into this format where we can really explore all this stuff? But the story has so much sound and so much place.
00:05:40
Speaker
So it felt like it would really always felt like it would make a great podcast. And I think the sort of the way that the mystery is also, you know, the point at the story where we are and where we enter also kind of make it perfect for audio.
00:05:54
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And to give you a sense of just how good the audio is, our most recent episode is all about Judy Garland. So you get to hear Judy sing. You get to hear her talk in these amazing interviews she did for an autobiography that was never published. And then next week, we will take you to a mine pit where scuba divers are looking for the ruby slippers. So just to give you a sense of the range of amazing audio that's available.
From Print to Audio: Transition Challenges
00:06:20
Speaker
Now, the fact that both of you are primarily print and written word journalists and editors, what has been the experience of working with a completely different medium to still tell a story? The interview process has felt really similar to me. And if anything, I think more intimate in some ways. I've really enjoyed interviewing for audio, just the experience of having
00:06:48
Speaker
a producer there often with me or on the line and kind of like really thinking about what we want to ask. Doing very long interviews usually has felt really, and just really long and kind of sometimes emotional interviews has felt
00:07:04
Speaker
really exciting and kind of, I've loved it. I also, I do feel that the mic, you know, it's not, it's maybe changes the dynamic a little bit, but it is small and people kind of forget it's fair. So it feels a lot like if I was going out and reporting a story. And then I feel like the story, you know, crafting the episodes, I've never done anything episodic like this.
00:07:26
Speaker
We were talking about it yesterday and we're calling it Tetris. It was Ariel's word and I was like, that's exactly what it's like. Just sort of like putting everything in its place and then you find the right puzzle piece and you're like popping it in and seeing if it's the right puzzle piece. But I just, you know, I always love, the best part of stories are like,
00:07:49
Speaker
the people you talk to and the worlds you get to be in. And so you get to do so much of that. It's like you don't even have to cut the quote down the way sometimes in print you're like, I should put this in my own words if it's like more than a couple lines long. You're kind of living in their voice, which I have found to be really interesting and cool.
00:08:08
Speaker
When you're writing, it's easy to kind of, you know, cut and paste and maybe not massage the quotes, but like clean them up in such a way that it reads better. And with audio, it's a little trickier to make those little cuts and everything. So I wonder what that experience has been like for you when you're working with, you know, the Tetris blocks are just inherently different and a little bit harder to work with when rather than just like pure words.
How to Edit Audio Without Losing Integrity
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah, well, I would at this point really like to give a shout out to our editor, Alistair Sherman, who's out in California, and he's been doing just incredible work with the audio. There's a great team of people involved, but he's like got the special sauce.
00:08:53
Speaker
Um, because he manages to, you know, even when those quotes are, you know, long winded. And as Arielle and I both discussed, we have a number of characters in Minnesota who speak very slowly and God bless them.
00:09:08
Speaker
But sometimes a quote just goes on and on and on. And Alistair's done a really amazing job of getting all of the best sound bites without making it seem like we're in any way manipulating things. It's like he is just great at stitching things together. I think in some ways the fact that you're letting the thing breathe in a way that you might not in writing because you're looking for that
00:09:33
Speaker
pithy quote or very succinct statement or whatever in some way like the pressure is off you as a writer because you are you know stitching things together and so really it's all about the connective tissue and then you know what people say they say
00:09:50
Speaker
I should also add that we have a fact checker who is a long time out of his fact checker, actually Adam, and he is one of the things he's doing as part of this process is going through those quotes that I just described where, you know, we're making them, you know, a little tighter, a little faster, or Alistair is doing that, I should say.
00:10:08
Speaker
And he's fact checking to make sure that we're not losing anything in that process, that it doesn't change the meaning of things, or the gist of it gets lost or something. So I think this is the amazing thing about the team behind a podcast. There are so many layers. It's not just, did you get the interviews? Did you get the right sound on the mic? It's then also these different layers of production that go into every single episode.
Interviewing for Audio: Capturing Compelling Tape
00:10:36
Speaker
And it also feels like, so when I go to the transcripts, I'm going print first. That's my inclination, right? But I know that our team, Alistair, and really everyone, everyone else is going ears first. They're going to the, to the bites first, especially as we've kind of selected them. So we have kind of two different ways that we're approaching the material. And they're just all so smart about when you come at it with your ears first, you know, the differences and what that's going to,
00:11:05
Speaker
gonna really sound like, yeah. And then I feel like the editing has just been amazing at allowing us to kind of keep the spirit of what someone says and what someone says, but have it move in the way that we want it to move.
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah, what becomes the challenge for you as reporters to not only get the information and gather information, but report it in such a way where you're getting the best possible tape? Because the sound of the tape is so important, and having good talkers on tape is so important. So that's an entirely different challenge from print. So what has that been like for
The Producer's Role in Podcasting
00:11:46
Speaker
you guys? So two things. I think we've actually been lucky.
00:11:50
Speaker
has a lot of really great talkers. It's just there haven't been, you know, there's a few times where you really want what someone says, but the what they say, how they say it isn't that good, right? It, you know, it does happen, but we've had some really great storytellers and people who are just so passionate
00:12:11
Speaker
about what they're talking about. Like we're often interviewing people with this story about the most important or exciting thing that they know. And so it gets them really excited and we get good tape. We've had just like, I think really a lot of great interviews, but obviously, yeah, I don't have a background interviewing for audio. And so when I'm on those
00:12:31
Speaker
interviews or on those calls and I have our great producer director's page or Lloyd with me, they sort of always push to make sure that there's a section where you go back in the interview and we make sure we are getting that really cinematic
00:12:47
Speaker
you know, scene by scene and the source is saying it all. Because that is a difference from print where normally I would then build around. Like you get the great quote and then you understand all the beats of the scene and you're crafting the scene in your own words, right? That's if you're writing a narrative story, like out of a story, that's how it would work. But what's it like for them to have the whole, have control of their own scene? You know, that's really something where I'm still learning how to do that.
00:13:13
Speaker
in an interview and definitely get a lot of help in that piece of it. So Ariel, you had mentioned that you're working with producers as well. So are they typically either tape syncing or are they kind of your wingman holding the microphone or just kind of in the shadows as it were? What's that sort of dynamic been like?
Why Did Both Narrate?
00:13:38
Speaker
Like I said, they, you know, I don't think I'd ever, I'd worked with photographers, but I don't think I, you know, I'd never gone out. Journalism, especially freelance journalism, is like so solitary and you're kind of out there with your source and you're in your own whatever dynamic. Whereas this, you have another person with you, right? Who has their eyes and ears are seeing what you see and hearing what you hear. And yeah, they will hold the mic or just like make sure the equipment is set up.
00:14:04
Speaker
and then jump in and ask questions at the end or kind of like, we'll talk about how we'd want to, if it's something where we're following someone around, you know, how we want to kind of arrange it. So I feel in some ways like I don't have to worry, you know, I can sort of just like do the job without worrying or doing too much of, you know, I can't take any credit for any of the like audio production or anything like that. But it's also just like neat because, you know, people think differently or have different ideas.
00:14:34
Speaker
and also they know so much about what's gonna sound good that I feel like that. Just hearing, you know, the thing about this whole project has been that team aspect and people just sort of surprise you with ideas that are really cool that you maybe wouldn't have thought of. Yeah, and speaking of team aspect, Sayward, you know, you're in on the scripting and the narration of this alongside Ariel, so what was the creative decision there to have both of you narrate this story?
00:15:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. And it was not, even though I sent the link to Ariel originally, I sent it to her because I was interested in her writing the story. And so Ariel did all of the reporting, and I was kind of there as a sounding board in the way that an editor
00:15:20
Speaker
is the way that I am on all Atmos stories. But one of the things I think that's been fun about this whole process over the last three years for me and Ariel is that we're both really invested in the story. We have lots of thoughts about it. And we've also become friends over that time. I mean, I don't mean to speak for you, Ariel, but I think we've become friends. Yes, we are friends. It checks out.
00:15:41
Speaker
I was just this morning, I went to her house for like six hours to work on a script. So I think part of the idea was that like our sort of rapport was also part of what made this project.
00:15:58
Speaker
sing, you know, when it came to actually putting the audio together, all along, we'd been like, man, we could just record a podcast that's us sitting with microphones talking about the ruby slippers, which, to be clear, no one would listen to. But it would be like me talking about it as a religious relic and like Judy as the ultimate like American martyr and like saint and and and and I don't know. I mean, maybe some people would listen to that podcast.
00:16:25
Speaker
But this is like the next best thing for us is getting to, you know, kind of co-present everything. And by everything, I really do mean like Arielle's reporting to audiences. And then in terms of, you know, what this means for the activist, I'd always said that for years now, you know, the activist will only make a podcast if we really feel like a story is going to be best served in a narrative podcast format.
00:16:52
Speaker
And we really felt like this story fit that. And it's been fun for me to, I kind of feel like I'm just, you know, sponging a lot up this entire time, like learning so much about the production side of things and, you know, how certain aspects of activist editing transfer to this medium, you know, and then obviously there are ways that things don't.
Atavist's Narrative Skills in Podcasting
00:17:13
Speaker
So I'm learning a lot, but it's also, I think, a nice
00:17:17
Speaker
foray for the activist into a different medium flexing our muscles saying we can bring our narrative know-how to different mediums, different audiences. And so that was always an exciting piece of things for me. It was to have the activist's name on it and sort of our ethos behind it, but then to learn from so many other people in the process.
00:17:41
Speaker
Yeah, I love that narrative know-how that you're bringing to it. And I wanted to ask you about the challenge of the transition of what skills there were transferable and what was like, oh, this is kind of a speed bump. But we're kind of using what we know and Cadence is doing what they're doing. And the marriage of that is what's bringing this together. So what were some of those transferable skills that
00:18:10
Speaker
helped you, helping you episodically stick to landing on these episodes.
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's something that actually Ariel and I've just kind of been getting into a rhythm of over the last two to three weeks, which is that, you know, Ariel's done all this amazing reporting. It's organized incredibly well in, you know, a Google Drive and the Cadence 13 team does a great job helping select, again, like Ariel said, kind of ears first, bites, like things that, so it's not the, you know, most elegant quote in the world, but wow, does it sound good for some reason, right?
00:18:45
Speaker
And then Ariel kind of puts everything together in an initial script. And then like, that's kind of when I go in and do Tetris work. Because at that point, I think as an editor, there are a lot of similarities between a podcast like this and an out of a story because you know, an out of a story is not a traditional magazine feature.
00:19:06
Speaker
We're very plot driven. We have a beginning, a middle, and end. We're always thinking about arcs. We don't necessarily, I mean, I very rarely do you need a nut graph. And so there are a lot of similarities in moving these pieces around in the podcast. So that's kind of where I've found
00:19:26
Speaker
that I can be the most helpful is certainly Ariel and I were talking lots while she was doing her reporting. And at a certain point, we were also like, who do you think stole the slippers? Which we've been talking about for the last couple of years as well. And there was all that fun stuff to discuss. But then from a purely practical standpoint, I felt like really looking at those raw scripts and thinking about, OK, how could this flow? And where might I be helpful?
00:19:55
Speaker
suggesting different beats and transitions and things like that. That's where I like to think the value add from an activist perspective is.
Pacing & Storytelling in Episodic Podcasts
00:20:04
Speaker
And Ariel, given that Adivis is about that arc and narrative, and now doing episodic podcasts, each podcast, each episode has its own arc, and then that's gonna feed into the arc of the entire series. So what's been the challenge in terms of pacing and storytelling on the episode by episode basis, and then hopefully having it all tied together as a series?
00:20:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's been really interesting. I mean, I think one thing is like we have so much material, right? So every script is starting with me reading like so many hours of, you know, I, they do all the transcription. It's like all beautifully done. And so like, I don't have to sit there and do that. But once I have all those tapes to the transcripts to read through, it's so much material and you're kind of figuring out what is going
00:20:55
Speaker
where I think it's gotten easier. It's like as the blocks, it's almost like once the foundation is set, like once the pieces stop moving, it becomes easier. But when everything's still moving, it's really challenging. And there are a few moments where like, wait, did we like hit that enough earlier on to be able to be doing this further on? Because you want it to layer, which I think is, you know, you see that in a print story, especially something like an out of a story.
00:21:21
Speaker
where it is going to be long and it is going to have these sort of like waves or themes coming through. But I think you're right. It's like, how do we kind of go into whatever is going to be happening in that episode, that arc and that world? And that's, you know, that those sort of transformations that are going to happen while having it being layering on top of what happened before and setting up for what happens next. It's a really different way of thinking.
00:21:47
Speaker
I'm finding it really enjoyable that there are moments where you're like, Oh, wait, let me go back. I'm like always when I'm working on one script, I have all I have like all the interviews open and then like all the scripts we've we've ever worked on and everything I've ever written. I've been like often to just sort of like just have a sense of
00:22:04
Speaker
of what what needs to happen. And I think another thing that is different is like the pace, right? You know, how much time you're going to spend in a moment and some things you're just going to go through and some things are really like you're going to hang out there. And that a lot gets determined by like say words, amazing editing. And then, you know, Alastair's like the the actual audio editing and just everyone's notes. Our team is really good about notes about telling me like, you know, what to get rid of.
00:22:33
Speaker
But those ideas of where you're going to linger in a scene versus go through and thinking about that on an episodic level, I think is a little bit different and kind of interesting.
Print vs. Audio Storytelling Techniques
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah, and it's funny you say that, because I often talk with writers when we're working on out of print stories about exactly that. When do you linger in a scene? When do you let something breathe? When do you have a cliffhanger? When do you have a jump cut? And those things absolutely apply in this instance. Just the reasons that they apply might be different, because again, it might be dictated by sound, or it might be dictated by
00:23:12
Speaker
access to a person's voice or something along those lines, as opposed to purely, you know, where are we in the story? And I mean, some of my favorite parts of the podcast are these like weird asides. And it's so nice to have the room, especially because it's, you know, an eight episode series to have the room to go into those weird asides, not just because they're weird or quirky or whatever, but because something about them, you know, is reflected back in in the main narrative. And, you know,
00:23:42
Speaker
out of his stories for the most part, allow that too. But it's not quite the same, you know, as quite literally hearing somebody off in that corner, you know, saying something or introducing you to something interesting. So yeah, that's the end of that particular float. I'll say one more difference. I know, but it just referred to me this idea also of doing these interviews, and then things really come out in the interviews, I think that are different, a little different for me than in print, like no print, you'll see something and be like, I know that I'm going to use that scene.
00:24:10
Speaker
but here you're listening and you're like I know I'm going to use that person telling that amazing story or like saying that weird thing that made me feel something the way they said it and then it's like how do you leave room in the scripts for those moments sort of like what you were saying the asides are the best part you know how do you but how are the asides also building in your plot I think is something
Structuring Podcast Episodes
00:24:32
Speaker
that we kind of work with or are trying to work with. We've definitely had to leave a couple of fun asides on the cutting room floor. Actually, this last episode that came out today, so episode three, Terribly Happy, there was so much good material, not just about Judy Garland, but about the origins of, or I should say the white origins of the town where she's from and how it came to be and how her family came to be there, et cetera, et cetera.
00:24:59
Speaker
And when we did the initial cut of the episode, it was like twice as long as it needed to be, and not because there was anything uninteresting, just because there was too much interesting stuff. And, you know, so there are certainly those moments where you have to prioritize, but for the most part, you know, there's nothing that's been left out so far that, I mean, I've certainly had this less as an editor, more as a writer, where it's like, oh man, I really wanted to keep that in, but I just couldn't because the word count didn't allow it or, you know,
00:25:28
Speaker
space I had on the page didn't allow for it or whatever. And it's been nice to shape this podcast such that you're able to keep the vast majority of the stuff you love in. And to your question, Brendan, about the arcs of the episodes and then how do they tie into the arc of the wider
00:25:46
Speaker
narrative. Some of my favorite podcast episodes, not in this podcast, but in podcasts generally, are the ones where it's like, where's this going exactly? But I'm so intrigued because the starting point wasn't quite what I thought it was going to be. And then it backs into something and you realize the way that everything connects. And that goes for true crime to a certain degree, but then there are obviously plenty of other great narrative examples. Certainly, Us Town had really interesting episodes like that.
00:26:15
Speaker
And so it's been fun to play around with the different possibilities of what an arc means in an episode. Is an arc about a character? Is an arc about a particular subculture? Is an arc about an actual incident or event? And then how does that all tie back into this central question of who took the slippers? Why? And how did they mysteriously return after 13 years?
How to Layer Content for Engagement
00:26:43
Speaker
And it's all that layering that Ariel was describing and definitely being deliberate about not just, OK, we're going to include everything we like and this great sound bite, but also making sure that there's that connective tissue. It's kind of like building, I don't know if I were like Frankenstein or something, right? You're like building a person and you're like, you need that scaffolding, like the structure at the heart, the skeleton. But then you do have a lot of space to play around with with everything that goes on top of that.
00:27:09
Speaker
It's like, also, if you're like me and you hate writing not graphs, it's like you just have to write not graphs over and over again.
00:27:19
Speaker
Right. And you don't even necessarily actually wind up in the script. That's what's also interesting about this. I feel like there's a lot of voiceover stuff that Ariel and I will write, Ariel especially will write. And it's kind of like you almost need to get it out on the page just because it's like, OK, now I have it in my mind what this particular act and this episode is about or what this whole episode is about. And then I feel like inevitably that stuff winds up shorter than
00:27:44
Speaker
it ever started out, it usually winds up a sentence or two at most. But sometimes just almost clearing your throat, clearing your head of it can really help as you're shaping everything that comes after. Yeah, it's a little like, what are we doing here? What's the transformation that's going to occur in this act or this episode? I feel like it's really important to always know, and we don't always know. I don't always know sometimes until I write a lot of the throat clearing.
00:28:11
Speaker
pieces of it. I, as I've listened to the early episodes, I was getting some winds of change vibes, you know, this kind of, and I, you know, and you brought up S-town too, and in print, sometimes we talk about modeling, you know, stories, you know, let's just take a shape and kind of model it, reflect yours in the mirror of another piece. And I wonder what you were, you know, what models you might have had in mind as you were, you know, sort of storyboarding out this series.
00:28:38
Speaker
Well, it's funny you mentioned wind of change because I did. I remember last year listening to it and like calling or emailing Sayward and being like, I think we could make this story into a podcast because something about the idea of like the culture as a jumping off point was just so exciting. And the way that they did that was so successful. I thought that it felt like it opened a door for not just the story of the stolen Ruby slippers, but what we really wanted this podcast to be, which was sort of this larger
00:29:06
Speaker
examination of America and of culture and of Judy and of small, you know, kind of letting it take us to all these places. And it felt like they had done that so well that it was a real inspiration. Yeah, for sure. Those scripts were available online. They were great reference points. You know, I think they're
00:29:28
Speaker
There are lots of ways in which, you know, this series is not like that series. I mean, that series also had a central question of, you know, is this thing true? Is it not? And, and everything. But, you know, we also have sort of these true crime elements that go into it. So podcasts that I was really inspired by, I mean, that sounds certainly not that that's true crime, because that's its own genre of sorts, that podcast. But Bear Brook was a big,
00:29:54
Speaker
big podcast for me. I actually listened to that when Arielle was initially working on the like, we weren't even sure what this was going to be yet. So roughly like two and a half years ago or whatever it is. I listened to bear broke and I seem to remember I contacted you same sort of thing Arielle where I was like, man, you know what, let's start the story. Even even when we thought at the time you were just going to be writing it, it was like,
00:30:16
Speaker
let's think about this in an episodic way that a podcast producer might. So thinking about sections almost thematically as having their own little mini arcs and things like that. And Bearbrook as a true crime podcast was really one of the light bulbs for me in thinking about this particular project differently. And then I'm trying to think of... Last Scene. I think Last Scene was a really fun one to think about.
00:30:46
Speaker
Right, right, in terms of talking about heists. That was like the most insane heist ever, whereas like our heist basically involved him. Like putting him through an unlocked door. But yeah, no last scene is another good example. Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's anything else. The Dolly Parton one, Dolly Parton's America. That's more in the like, you know, not sort of the structural, because I agree, Bear Brook, I remember you sent
00:31:16
Speaker
me and just like the way that that moved episodically was so, so great. That that was a big, a big inspiration. Yeah, and then Dolly Parton's America and it's sort of way that they were using a cultural figure to get so many different things. And it was just also just like the ways both that and Wind of Change where they're using a lot of sound, right? And sound is at the heart of the story.
00:31:44
Speaker
In what ways has reporting and producing this audio story translated and maybe made you better, you know, reporters and editors for, you know, ultimately what will be kind of like you're going home, which is essentially print in the written words. How has this helped that, do you think?
Real-time Editing & Collaboration Benefits
00:32:05
Speaker
I don't feel like I've had another story where, like, I have this, Rose, this morning's favorite was at my house and she was like apologizing because it took a long time. But she shouldn't have been because it's like, you never get to sit next to your editor, right? And just like, watch them kind of like in real time, like a really smart editor mind, like go through a piece of your writing. And I feel like that's just been like,
00:32:29
Speaker
invaluable in terms of just cranking on structure and where things go and how you get from one place to another. I feel like that's been really
00:32:41
Speaker
really an interesting thing that I think I'll take back to writing. But it's funny, I'm so I'm working on like a feature now. And I had this moment where in my head, I was like, Oh, the editor of this feature has probably listened to the interview I did with the source. Like a really intense interview. And it was almost like I thought it was something where I was sharing with her, because here I'm so used to like, you know, that we all kind of like have the experience of the audio. And then of course, that's not true. It's like my job.
00:33:07
Speaker
in that case is like to translate that interview that she's never going to listen to into a story. And it's different, but it's like, you know, kind of trying to take that home a little bit if that makes sense. Yeah. And it's funny you say that because I've actually not listened to any of your raw interviews. And I've done that in part because I feel like we already have so many people on the team
00:33:29
Speaker
the director, the producers, the audio editor, you know, we already have so many people doing that. And I wanted to make sure that I was essentially like a fresh eyes person in things. So again, like once there's actually like a coherent sense of what an episode is, I didn't wanna bring any of my bias from like listening to hours and hours and hours of tape. I wanted to look at it as this like single thing, right? And I don't know, maybe that's a bad strategy.
00:33:56
Speaker
But I think it's worked for us. And one of the things, I think one of my weaknesses as an editor, I even said this to Ariel this morning, we had such a day, Ariel. We did, we did. I think one of my weaknesses as an editor is that I sometimes, well, and it's actually my weakness as a writer too. I'm not good at like forging ahead. I'll kind of look at something and I'll stare it and I'll fiddle with it and I'll go for another paragraph and I'll be like, nope, gotta go back.
00:34:22
Speaker
I'm going to fiddle again. And I think that in some ways, working on this has been good, almost like retraining of my brain, because first of all, there's not as much to fiddle with, right? So again, you're thinking about these puzzle pieces or Tetris pieces, and where to put them, but it's not like, you know, there is actually that much language that you can adjust. And then also just being reminded like, you know,
00:34:47
Speaker
We just got, we kind of have to keep forging ahead. Like we have an episode a week that we need to get done. And so, you know, sort of just like pushing me to not be quite so much of a perfectionist about the little things. And I think the other piece of that is, you know, this matters not how it's written, but how it sounds,
Sound over Text: What's More Important?
00:35:04
Speaker
you know? So thinking more conversationally and, you know, in some ways you have to do an edit on the page to make sure that, you know, it's the length that needs to be and whatnot.
00:35:14
Speaker
It's been reminding myself to you have to keep going because at a certain point you need to record it and see how it sounds. And so, you know, it may be something that a sentence that you worked on unnecessarily for an hour once you actually read it and have it placed between, you know, quotes by sources, maybe it doesn't actually sound very good. Maybe it needs to be said in an entirely different way. And so it's something definitely as we've been working, I just periodically have to be like, all right, they would stop. Like, don't.
00:35:41
Speaker
This is not a traditional out of his story. Do not worry about, is that precisely the right word there? Just keep going, keep going because the sound is just as important as the way it reads to you, if not more important. This strikes me as one of the more collaborative things
Collaborative Roles: The Kitchen Metaphor
00:36:01
Speaker
you can do. You've talked about a lot of the different audio people and the other producers, and of course the two of you together. If you were to
00:36:11
Speaker
overlay the metaphor, let's say, of a kitchen with all those moving parts and all those roles, sous chefs, executive chefs, dishwasher, you name it, how would you equate the kitchen to the idea of the cooks in this audio kitchen you've created?
00:36:31
Speaker
Oh my gosh, this makes me realize that even though I've watched every single season of Top Chef, I do. Like what everyone does. Yeah, I'm like, how depressing is this? But I'm not really sure. I mean, on the one hand, I want to say that Ariel is the chef, because it's her ideas, her show in so many ways. But then at the same time, to me, sous chefs are the ones who do. I'm prepping and organizing.
00:37:00
Speaker
I don't know. I'm like, I'm not putting the gloss. I'm not throwing that last like bit of parsley on the top. I'm the parsley thrower, I think. Maybe. Or maybe I'm like the sauce. Wiping the sauce off the end of the plate. I'm like the parsley thrower and I'm the saucier and like the person who wipes the plates. But then Ariel, I don't know, she's kind of like combinations to chef and sous chef, I think.
00:37:26
Speaker
And then, oh my God, these other people, they are... Well, is somebody like the heat? Is somebody like the fire? Oh my God, that is genius. Who is the fire? I mean, that's tough. I think the fire might be Alistair. I think so too, because he's like making our dishes. Right, exactly. It's like we're giving you the ingredients and the ideas that we actually need you to make. We need you to cook it for us.
00:37:54
Speaker
Oh my god. And then, I mean, Lloyd is, Lloyd's the director, he's like kind of the chef too, but then- Or like the guy who's shouting, who's the guy, what's the name of the person who's like, need a, da da da, table nine. Expediter, the expediter. That's a word I actually know from Top Chef, and of course I probably just got it wrong. But this is the most fun I've had all day, guys. Good thing about this. He's kind of like the expediter, and then,
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I guess. Oh, sorry, go ahead. I don't know. I was just thinking of also the people who like stand over the pot and they're like tasting it. Like, I feel like in some ways, that's also that's like Val, right? Like, it's like the people who are kind of like editing and, and really helping refine. I don't know if that's just like other chef.
00:38:39
Speaker
The people with the spoons, the tasting spoons, whoever they are. Right, right, right, totally. Yeah, I mean, the sad truth is that we don't have a ratatouille in this scenario. I mean, we both have pets and they've been mostly just like noisy support in the background of recordings, but we do not have like a little rat hiding under anybody's cap.
00:38:59
Speaker
Um, maybe like my children are the ratatouille. Maybe, I was just saying that Ayla and Jordie are like the mascots of this, of this show. So maybe, maybe they're the ratatouille here. But there's something about the sushi, like I will say, I feel like writing is like always kind of, or you kind of feel like you're just like building the house, you know, and they're like, there's something to this that really feels like that. Like in terms of like, I actually do feel like I'm chopping vegetables, you know, I'm like going through interviews, like,
00:39:29
Speaker
looking for the good stuff, arranging the good stuff, trying to figure out what it's about. There's something that feels very like my sleeves are up and I've got a knife out, which is maybe the sous chef part of it. Oh, man. OK, the top chef finale of the latest season is this week, and I'm going to pay such close. I know. What are all the jobs? I know. I'll have a better answer for you next week, Brendan.
00:39:56
Speaker
Fantastic. I love it. That was a fun little aside that we got to go down and label all the chefs in the kitchen with all the various jobs and everything. Maybe the fact checker is the garbage boy, just like, all right, let's unglamorous work, but so important. He's the dishwasher and he's also the vegetable chopper. Basically, the person who's like, this kitchen would be a disaster if
00:40:26
Speaker
You were not here. Getting the mise en place down. Correct. You're also like restaurant. Like I feel like you're also like higher. Like that's what you're bringing from the Adams is also this like higher level.
00:40:40
Speaker
I'm the front of house person. What's the restaurant doing? And is everything that we're putting out like? Front of house. That's, yep. I'm front of house. Oh man. What's going out? Oh, thank you. Well, fantastic.
00:40:57
Speaker
Where can people find the podcast if they're not already familiar with it? Yeah. It is called No Place Like Home. It is available on pretty much any platform where you like to listen to your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey. It is also featured on the Atavist magazine's website, so magazine.atavist.com. We have a landing page there with some really nice original art.
00:41:27
Speaker
And Ariel wrote a really lovely prologue, sort of introducing people to the series and what it's about. And the episodes are also available there. Nice. And Sayward is at Sayward Darby on Twitter. Is that right? At Sayward Darby. That is right. Perfect. And Ariel, how about you? What are your social handles? I'm at Ariel Ramsh. Fantastic. How do you spell it? R-A-M-C-H.
00:41:51
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, guys, this was awesome to get to talk to you and unpack this wonderful production that you've got going on. I can't wait to listen to the rest of the series and see what you guys cook up. So thanks so much for coming on the show. And we're going to have the best of luck going forward with the rest of it. Thank you so much.
00:42:17
Speaker
well thanks to say word area be sure to check out their podcast no place like home serious winded change vibes man thanks to listening cnf first thanks to listening thanks for listening thanks for the support and thanks to the bvw c mf a and creative writing as well as hippo camp twenty twenty one for the sport and thanks for being along for this ride so stay cool stay cool forever