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Episode 29—Pete Croatto, 10 Years a Freelancer (and counting)
129 Plays8 years ago
Pete Croatto celebrates 10 years of freelancing by sharing what he's learned over that time.
Recommended
Transcript
Excitement Over Metallica and Podcast Plans
00:00:02
Speaker
Hey what's going on there CNFers, thanks for listening. I've been jamming out to Metallica's new record all day so I can't really hear the words I'm saying. Anyway, so we're back.
00:00:16
Speaker
But the hopes of making Friday a regularity to give you a nice little pop of CNF for the weekend.
Insights from Pete Croato's Freelance Journey
00:00:23
Speaker
With that in mind, I've got Pete Croato. Freelancer extraordinaire. And this is a good one because that's all we talk about. Pete shares what he's learned in his 10 years of freelancing. So it's a great little playbook if you're thinking about getting into the ring.
00:00:39
Speaker
He wrote a blog post about the 10 things he wished he knew when he started 10 years ago. You'll find that in the show notes. So, um, subscribe to the podcast, my newsletter over at BrendanOmero.com and enjoy Pete. Definitely one of the good guys. This is it. Episode 29. Hit it.
00:01:10
Speaker
to you to come to that list of revelations, if you will.
00:01:17
Speaker
How long did it take? I would say 10 years. I'm always learning. I don't want to sound dramatic, but if you're not learning in this business, if you're not making mistakes and learning from them, you're really not doing this job very well.
00:01:42
Speaker
I could have easily put maybe 50 observations and in a month or so I could probably have another 10 things that I just learned. Part of that is because you really are running a business. There's a writing element to it and there's getting better at that which is a whole territory.
00:02:07
Speaker
you are running a business you are dealing with marketing you're dealing with uh with accounting you're dealing with paperwork and it's a whole so every day there is something new i mean or just about every day so yeah so uh in 10 years i might have a thousand tips then so but uh but 10 seemed like a good place to start those seem like the things
Transition from Trade Magazine to Freelancing
00:02:30
Speaker
that
00:02:30
Speaker
really played me when I was, the 10 things I wish I had known when I started in 2006. So what were the circumstances that pushed you towards this freelancing leap that you took 10 years ago?
00:02:45
Speaker
Oh, that's that's a good question. All right. Well, I don't know if you want the long story. Do you want the short story? It's it's I go. I love I love long stories. So, OK. Go for the origin story. So, all right. So I was so into that in in 2006, November 2006, I was working at a company, a trade magazine, a trade magazine publisher, and they're still in existence called VRM Inc., which stands for vitamin retailer magazine Inc.
00:03:15
Speaker
And I take it I had I was an associate editor at the time I started off as an assistant editor in 2003 and You know and I've been you know and this is in March 2003 so I'd been there for almost four years and It was a kind of job as I explained in the post that really it should have been a job that I was there at for maybe two years tops and
00:03:40
Speaker
because it was a great job because you learned so much. I mean, you were thrown into the sick of things and you learned how to write long form or longer stories. You learned how to deal with sources. You learned how to keep a schedule. A lot of valuable things that I think a lot of journalism students maybe don't learn the first time around. So I was at this job and year one was fine. Year two was okay.
00:04:10
Speaker
By the time I got to year three, I was burnt out. It was a lot of work. It was an editorial staff of three putting out 28 issues a year, writing, reporting. And on top of that, I'm doing administrative tasks, I'm answering the phones, I'm ordering office supplies. It was a gothic amount of work.
00:04:31
Speaker
And in doing the job, I just felt like I wasn't challenged and I felt, you know, I'm almost 30. It is in 2006. And I don't, I feel like I'm leaving a lot on the table. I mean, I'm writing these stories and they're
00:04:48
Speaker
I'm not really learning anything new, I'm not challenging myself, I'm not getting better, and there are so many things that I'm interested in that I'm not getting a chance to write about because I'm working 10, 11 hour days. So I just started to get really depressed and I started to get really out of it and I thought I have to make a change.
00:05:09
Speaker
it was a risk and I decided, you know what, I have to freelance because I don't want to wake up 10 years from now or five years from now and think, gee, you know, what could I have done? Why didn't I do this? Why didn't I write this? So, I don't know, it's a very long-winded answer, but it really was a matter of, when it comes to writing down to it, I wasn't happy. And leaving seemed like the best chance to save myself and to do the kind of writing that I wasn't doing.
The Role of Side Jobs in Freelancing
00:05:37
Speaker
And I think an important point you made in your blog post, too, was as you decided to jump, you put in your two weeks notice on the first November, you jumped in and freelance, but you also had the side gig of working at Borders as well, which is, I think, real important to, even if you're, even for people who wanna do that, it's always good to have something steady on the sidewalk that it's working 10, 20, 30,
00:06:05
Speaker
sometimes having that sort of a side gig of that nature that's steady but also doesn't take up a whole lot of your sort of mental ram as you're looking to do other projects. So I wonder like if you could speak to the importance of having that other side gig as well.
00:06:24
Speaker
Oh, it was hugely important. And you touched on a lot of what made that important, why it's important. From just the boring practical adult point of view, it was health insurance, which is very expensive and it's still expensive. So that was clutch to get health insurance. It was important to get a steady source of income every month to pay basic bills and to pay expenses because
00:06:52
Speaker
Those don't go away and you're right. It was great to go. It was it was really important to interact with other people and to and to just be out in the world and not be confined to a desk or confined to a computer waiting for emails to come in. So it was fantastic. I absolutely love working at borders because
00:07:11
Speaker
because there are just so many characters there. And that's the thing too. As a writer, and I don't care if you're writing novels or press releases or articles on municipal meetings, I think every writer is fascinated by people and is fascinated by just what happens in the flow of life. And Borders was just amazing. There were so many people there that were just
00:07:39
Speaker
first of all my co-workers were amazing and They and I got exposed to different viewpoints and I got exposed to different lifestyles I met all sorts of people from different walks walks of life grandmothers and hipsters and you know college students and folks like me that were just trying to make a buck and they were all readers and they're all passionate about reading and that was inspiring and it was great to work in a place where
00:08:03
Speaker
You were surrounded by, where you were surrounded by books and it was an impetus to read more, it was an impetus to learn more. But just the daily shot of humanity that came through those doors was incredible. We had so many characters that would just, it was like cheers. They would just come in. There was one guy that would just buy, that would buy the same cup of, would just buy, would go in, buy a cup of coffee.
00:08:30
Speaker
There are free refills. He would refill the cup of coffee and he would stay there for eight hours just wandering around the store Like that there was that guy I mean there were there were and there are people there that were just really nice and just were that's how they spent their day But there were so many it was such a it was such a
00:08:47
Speaker
Sounds special, but it's such a melting pot that that really was just that was such a that was just as a breath of fresh air Especially if they're coming from a job where you were at the same five people day after day after day And it also made you want to also it also was a nice break from writing and it and you know and and it made and also it It kept you it kept me among the living. I don't know if that I don't know if that makes any sense, but When you write and I've been victim to this I'm sure you have as well you tend to get a
00:09:17
Speaker
caught up in the same routines, you get wrapped up in a story, you get wrapped up in interviews, you get wrapped up in just trying to keep things going, that you forget that there's a whole world out there. And Borders, aside from providing me with income and friends who I'm still in contact with and
00:09:37
Speaker
Amazing stories and friendships it also got me outside outside of the house and that was that was clutch I mean, I'm not sure if I could I'm not sure how long would have lasted if I just been Chained in my desk for eight hours a day. It's it's it probably it probably wouldn't have ended. Well, I probably wouldn't be talking to you
00:09:56
Speaker
yeah absolutely it totally it totally helps to get it like it forces you out into the world in that sense because it just kind of it's real easy to get bogged down to be in the same corner in your apartment or your house and it just it does it kind of it
00:10:14
Speaker
sort of recharges you. I mean, it's not like that ideal of, oh yeah, my writing is supporting me 100%. I think that's this gold standard that you think when you get into it. Like, oh yeah, I want my writing and my words and everything and my pitches to sustain me. But it's, in a lot of ways, a side gig of this nature is almost
00:10:38
Speaker
It should almost be required required reading if you will to have that because it does it forces you to have to socialize which is important to mental health. Absolutely right and you also learn that there are people out in the world besides you. You know we we especially with twitter and facebook and.
00:10:58
Speaker
all this social media it's so easy to get rep to sort of just get lost in your own little village that you cultivate and you're with people that think like you and talk like you and there's nothing wrong with that. That's fantastic.
00:11:14
Speaker
But you're right, going out and seeing other people, seeing, dealing with different people every day, it's a, I think it's definitely a requirement because you learn that the world is not just you and your computer and your own thoughts. There are people that think differently than you. There are people that act differently than you, look differently than you. I mean, it sounds very, what I'm saying sounds very,
00:11:39
Speaker
Elementary, but it's you but it's so you you forget that so easily especially if you're if you're if you're so wrapped up in Your own little world with your projects in your in your in your gig. So yeah, I And that's why now I try to get outside it once a day. I try to you know, I'll go food shopping I'll go to the gym. I'll all because those things remind me that there's a larger world out there and You know, it's it's not just it's not just you
00:12:05
Speaker
And how many hours a week were you working at the Borders? Oh, wow. I was putting in, I would say 40 hours a week. I was putting in 40 hours a week and then writing when I could. So I was pitching on my off days. And the thing is, the off days were always, there was always at least one weekday. So there was a Monday or Tuesday.
00:12:28
Speaker
I was reviewing movies at the time, so I'd go in and review movies, I would work on pitches, I would write stuff, and then I would squeeze that in between shifts of borders. Yeah, it was funny. It didn't feel nearly as exhausting as it probably sounds, because I felt like I was living on my own terms. I was working on my own terms, and that was very energizing.
00:12:56
Speaker
You almost see like those jobs of that nature. If you use a little sort of mental kung fu, you can kind of trick yourself into thinking like, well, this is my, these people are actually like paying me to write. I'm just putting in a few, put a little time. It's like a book advance. It's like that.
00:13:13
Speaker
That's my, they're giving me the permission. I just have to put in some time here and then I have to make some elsewhere, but it's like you figure that that's your revenue stream to really sort of fund what you really want to be doing.
00:13:28
Speaker
No, absolutely right. And I think a lot of writers do that now. There are things that they work on that they have to work on. And you're thankful for the work, and you do the best job that you can. But you have those dream projects, or you have those passion projects that are filed away that you work on on your spare time. And Air After You're Right was the same thing here. And Borders, it's a shame they closed, because it was such it was, I'm going to sound like I'm on Borders PR.
00:13:58
Speaker
It was such a great, that was probably the best non-writing job I've ever had. The hours were bonkers and the pay was not great, but they let you take out whatever books you want. You could borrow magazines with impunity. You were working with people who were just like you, who loved books, who loved music, who loved movies.
00:14:23
Speaker
You get inspired working with people like that. You get inspired by people who work with passion. It doesn't matter if they're bookstore employees or they're garbage men or whatever. That passion rubs off.
00:14:41
Speaker
I was always fun to go work at Borders. It was always fun. And then to come back and then to write when you have it on the time off, it was glorious. I felt like I was stealing money. And I think that's sort of the sign that you're doing what you want to do, is that you say to yourself, you're paying me for this? You're paying me to recommend books and to flirt with customers at the register? Great, yeah, I'll keep you insane. I'll do that.
00:15:09
Speaker
It was it was great and i actually wrote about it for publishers weekly i wrote about how working in a bookstore was a life changing experience and it really was and you know you never know what paths. Work for you to take them and i'm glad i took that path i really am.
00:15:28
Speaker
I wonder why people aren't more inclined to, especially freelancers, because I never really hear it very often, hear them discuss the side jobs or the menial jobs that help fund what they really want to do, even if they're doing really great work and it doesn't
00:15:47
Speaker
it doesn't pay for everything right away. It seems like there's this sort of, I don't know, a latent shame to have to admit you need a side job. And it makes me happy to hear you talk so openly and candidly about and lovingly about the side job you needed when you were starting. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's yeah. The fact that I got
00:16:12
Speaker
At the end of the day, and even now, I think if you look at Twitter, and you look at LinkedIn, and you look at all the venues that writers use to promote their work, they're always promoting the stuff that they are most proud of, which they should. But if you look at my Twitter feed, you would think that the only things I write are for big time, or for publications that deal with basketball, or let me rephrase that.
00:16:42
Speaker
If someone, I've written for the New York Times, I've written for Grantland, and I've promoted those things to the hilt. But I'm not promoting the advertorials that I write, and the gig that I just did, copy editing a directory for hospitals in New Jersey. I think a lot of writers have stuff that they, the stuff that writers promote is the stuff that they want to be known by, which is great, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of writers
00:17:10
Speaker
Like me like me who have a ton of stuff that they just don't really talk about because it's very utilitarian it just gets you from point A to point B, but that but But there's nothing wrong with that because it's all writing. You know like it's all It's better than digging ditches. It's better than then working in an office answering phones in my mind like I
00:17:32
Speaker
It's all part of the same sandbox sometimes the sandbox has more toys in it sometimes there's a slide sometimes you know there's you know there are more kids in the sandbox and you're all playing together but you're still playing like running a business profile or writing a corporate newsletter. That's all it's all it all stems from the same joy you know and and you just have to you have to just remind yourself that yeah you know i'm doing what i love it's not it's it's not.
00:17:57
Speaker
The ideal thing it's not a profile or interview with for some fancy glossy but it's still writing it's still the thing that you love so that kind of that that that i think a lot of i would like to think a lot of eyes like me and they use that they take that germ of love and they.
00:18:14
Speaker
They carry it with them with every product that they do. And I wonder when you were first starting to like, how did you or what was the conversation you were having with yourself that gave yourself permission to do what you're doing?
00:18:29
Speaker
to leave the job or just to do this whole borders, journalism. I guess both. What was that conversation like? Because you had grown accustomed, four years at a place, you've grown accustomed to a certain stasis. At some point or another, there's the conversation of giving yourself the permission to do what you really want to do. Some people resist that and other people dive in. I wonder what that dialogue was like for you.
Family Influence on Career Change
00:18:58
Speaker
There was, it took me a long, long, long time to have that honest conversation with myself. And I'll tell you who really prompted that, who really got me thinking about that was talking to my dad. My dad isn't someone who kind of makes big gestures or doesn't really talk a lot about, you know, he's very much a
00:19:24
Speaker
He'll he'll I know what your parents are like, but my dad was always the kind of person where You know, he'll he'll give you a hand if you're in trouble But he'll let you do your thing and make your mistakes and learn from them. So Right a couple months before I quit VRM my dad Called me and said hey, you know, I want to meet I want to meet with you for dinner. I
00:19:46
Speaker
Which was unusual, because my dad never does that. So I meet him at a diner that's near where he lives, where my parents live, and we're sitting down, we exchange pleasantries. And he very bluntly tells me, look, you have to do something. You're miserable, you're making everyone around you miserable. You have to do something. You can't keep doing this.
00:20:12
Speaker
That was a turning point because when somebody who by nature doesn't say stuff like that says something to you, addresses you directly and says, look, get your head out of your ass and do something, you take note. And my brother too, my brother Dave, who's actually an editor at Mad Magazine, he was always on me to quit. And he was always saying, look, I'll lend you money, I'll do whatever you can do, I'll help you.
00:20:42
Speaker
I had people, it took a long time. It took my dad, my brother, it took friends to just sort of tell me, look, you know, you're not happy for me to realize that. And then there were a number of instances at work where I just realized, and it's funny, there were a few instances at work that all sort of happened in a row. And one of them was the editor asking me to get coffee for,
00:21:11
Speaker
some clients who are visiting. I'm the associate editor of a magazine. I have deadlines to meet. I'm getting coffee. That kind of moment along with the conversations with my dad, my brother keeping that voice in my ear, that really made me think, look, this is just not a path worth following because you're not fulfilling your potential and you're not happy.
00:21:41
Speaker
But it took a long time because you get used to certain things. You get used to two weeks vacation. You get used to a steady paycheck. You get used to going in and doing the same thing every day and not having to face surprises. So yeah, it was a long conversation with myself.
00:22:04
Speaker
long conversation that others had with me and but if but it all it all just clicked in and as i said there were a number of instances that work all within the same month where man just people were where you just where you know there was the copy incident as i call it there was um you know my editor lashing out at me for no real reason or rather the my boss lashing on me for no real reason uh
00:22:31
Speaker
And just me realizing like, look, this is I've reached the end of the road here. There's nowhere else I can go. So it's time to forge my own path. It's funny you brought up how your how your father said you're you're miserable and you're making everyone else miserable around you. Because I don't know if you listen to the moment with Brian Koppelman at all. No, that's what I need to check out. I have a lot of respect for that guy. He's a he's a really sharp.
00:22:56
Speaker
Yeah, he's sharp. He's just a real champion for for artists and people who are trying to get over that fear and resistance to go from zero to one in a And uh, but he and a lot of his early episodes and he it always kind of crops up Here and there because he was experiencing this and living it He was about 30 also when he first started writing and I wrote rounders with his yeah with his partner and um, but what he said is like if you're not
00:23:25
Speaker
Like in some ways expressing that sort of creative itch like you're going to become toxic to yourself and others. Yeah. Oh, definitely. It's just it's a it's a venom that it just will just get to the heart if you don't find a way to get that done and like you're living proof of that just by what you were saying. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was he's absolutely right. And that's a really that's a really good point. Yeah. I mean, you're
00:23:52
Speaker
There's no way I'm talking to you. There's no way that I'm writing where I've written or what I'm doing now if I didn't get that, if I didn't purge myself of that job. And this is not to speak ill of VRMs, not to speak ill of the people there. It was just time. I had spent way too much time there and it was time for me to go.
00:24:16
Speaker
And the job was affecting me, and it was affecting me in a toxic way because of time, and I think because I knew deep down that there was more to what I could do than what I was doing.
The Joys and Challenges of Freelancing
00:24:30
Speaker
But you're absolutely right. In the tenure that I've been freelancing, I've never had a moment where I felt, I don't want to do this. I've never had a moment where I thought, gee, I really wish I were doing something else.
00:24:46
Speaker
or pursuing another line of work. I've never felt that way. I'll give you another example. If I'm rambling, please forgive me. No, no, go on. This is great. One of the signs I knew things were really bad was I had a condo that was 10 minutes from where the offices were. And I knew things were really, truly bad when I was getting up at 8.45 in the morning
00:25:14
Speaker
Throwing on whatever clothes I could find giving my teeth a cursor of barely a brushing and heading out the door like leaving like leaving the apartment at 855 to get there by 9 because I just didn't want to go in and I've never had a moment like that in the 10 years that I freelance I've never had a moment of dread it's but but when when I when I was working at VR near the end I felt like that was just a recurring a recurring thing and
00:25:41
Speaker
And yeah, I think there's something to be said for that. I mean, not once do I think, oh, gee, I really should be learning air conditioning repair or learning how to job a big rig. I'm just really happy doing what I'm doing. That's great. What were those first weeks and months like when you started freelancing? You know what it felt like?
00:26:06
Speaker
getting your driver's license for the first time and someone gives you the keys to the keys of the car and just says drive that's what it felt it felt like i i just had all this freedom and i i felt i felt i felt paroled um it was it was it was great and and you know it it was um i wasn't really scared i wasn't i wasn't nervous i felt i just felt i felt paroled i felt free and it was great to sort of just
00:26:34
Speaker
it was like being stuck in a bad marriage and then divorced and going on the single scene and just like, oh, there's so many options. It was wonderful. It was such a thrill to just sort of be able to try new things and pitch to different places. It just felt really, really liberating. I look back at it now, it really was a special time.
00:27:03
Speaker
It was just something, that's the best way I can put it. It felt really, really liberating. And I'm not sure if I've felt that way since, nor should I, because it's the first time. You're not gonna have that feeling every day. But yeah, liberating.
00:27:23
Speaker
There's this sliding scale thing. So when you were first starting, of course, you had 40 hours of borders and you squeeze in, you have the writing around that. And then over time, it's like you're able to maybe scale back some of that borders work and then you're upping the writing stuff, the writing to fill up some of the time. And I wonder, when did those two spots along that spectrum get real close? And then when did the one surpass the other?
00:27:54
Speaker
Okay, that's a good question. What happened was, it's fine, there should be another blog post on this because the story kind of takes a turn. Let's see, I was working
00:28:09
Speaker
The border, I'd say around May 2008 is when it really kind of changed. Because what happened was the borders had closed and I was riding more. I had gotten a few more gigs here and there. I was busy riding, or busier riding. And I was working at Barnes and Noble about 10 minutes from my house.
00:28:35
Speaker
just working in the back room, which was great. Oh, that was so much fun. Just unloading boxes and putting shelving stuff. The guys in the back room were just the best. And it was just, it was so much fun to hang out with them. So I was enjoying myself there. And then a friend of mine who worked at Barnes and Noble for a division called Kwamit, which came out with a series of instructional guides, like how-to, laminated how-to guides.
00:29:04
Speaker
She reached out to me and said, hey, we're hiring somebody to be an assistant editor there on a freelance basis. Would you be interested? It's a year-long job. Would you be interested in that? I said, yeah, great. I'm totally down. So I interviewed for it. I got the position. And then that's when I left.
00:29:23
Speaker
Retail and started writing full-time Of course what I what with the the fight and the wolf now, it's funny back then it was not funny was Getting that my getting the job coincided right with the Great Recession 2008 so a 12-month job became a three-month job
00:29:45
Speaker
And then that was a whole other story. But from that point on, I was riding or at least trying to ride, yeah. How did you weather that little storm there, thinking that you had the 12-month gig that it got reduced down by 75%? Poorly, I'll be honest with you. Poorly.
00:30:11
Speaker
You know, and this is one thing I learned and I'll put this I'll put this down in the next the next if the public wants to do another one of these how to the lists. I panicked. What happened was the job went to a kingdom of clothes. I lost two other really, really dependable freelance gigs in that same time. And, you know, I, I panicked. I what happened was I was out of there really wasn't any
00:30:42
Speaker
There really wasn't anything happening for like nine months. So I was, oh man, I was applying online for stuff all the time, full-time jobs, freelance jobs. Then at one point, I'd say about eight months in, I just said, you know, fuck it. I'm just going to go freelance. I'm going to freelance all the way. And then I got a job. It was a terrible job, but it was a pain.
00:31:05
Speaker
As a community editor for three as an editor for three community magazines in central jersey so that held me over but those those those nine months were really bad because. I just i i i didn't know i didn't know how to look for i didn't know how to how to get work.
00:31:25
Speaker
in that situation i was looking at online ads all the time and that was a mistake i should have been reaching out more personally i should have been writing more pitch letters um and yeah and i learned i learned from that experience just not to panic you know just to stay the course take a step back see what needs to get done and just
00:31:45
Speaker
you know, take it step by step but I think like everybody else I was just overwhelmed and I did not handle it well, not at all. It was not a good stretch but you know, my family helped me out, my wife, my now wife was extremely supportive at the time because I'm not sure many people would date somebody who had
00:32:08
Speaker
you know, zero career prospects and whose bank account was just, you know, close to zero. So it was not a good time, but I learned a lot from it. For sure.
00:32:21
Speaker
What was your when things are really humming for you like what is? What is your like your query routine or your pitch routine? Like how many are you crafting at a time sending out per day or per week or? What's that routine like for you? It varies I would say about two to I would say on a good week two to three And they're always want like I'm looking at my board right now. I have a giant board that I have I keep track of everything and
00:32:48
Speaker
Right now, I have about five or six pitches out right now. There's a pitch that I'm going to send out probably once I'm done with talking to you whenever that is. I'd say about two to three pitches or queries a week.
00:33:04
Speaker
And it can be anywhere from just a pitch letter, a simple pitch letter, typical pitch letter, to reaching out to an editor I know and just sending a two sentence email, like, hey, I have an idea for this, and going from there. And that's the fun part now, is that as you get to know editors, the querying process is less daunting. I can just write to my editor, let's say by sports or hoop or wherever, and just say, hey, I have an idea to do this.
00:33:32
Speaker
And the editor says yes or no and then you're on to the next thing so yeah i take two to three a week is a is a two to three a week. More if i can because you know you always wanna you always want to keep irons in the fire. Yeah what is that board look like how how big is this this draft board if you will. This board is oh my goodness like it's a it's a it's a dry erase board i would say it is.
00:33:58
Speaker
two feet long by a foot high and I have it. I have it just it's in categories. It's something else like there's there's stuff. It's organized into places I can pitch that were editors will
00:34:14
Speaker
I know that editors won't kick me to the curb or ask who the hell are you. There is a section that's devoted to deadlines, four or five deadlines at a time when they're due so I can see them. There are pitches that are in the, I have an area that's devoted to pitches, pitches that I'm monitoring. And right now there are about, I'd say a dozen. There are plans for 2016. And then there's also a giant list, I'd say of 60, 65 ideas that I have.
00:34:44
Speaker
that I want to write about at some point. And they're just, it's in my like, childish scrawl, like, there's just some, I can't even read it. It's just, you know, will be a word like, you know, sisters, and then I have to figure out like, what the heck that means. But yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a big board. I used to, yeah, it's just, it's just easier to me to look at everything that way. It's easier to keep track.
Organizing Freelance Work with Systems
00:35:10
Speaker
Do you color code things so it's easy to look at at a glance? Yeah. I'm a color code fiend. I'm also a daily planner, a monthly planner, and that's color coded. It's insane. There's five or six colors involved.
00:35:33
Speaker
You look you would take a look at it and think I'm nuts because it's just oh like deadlines have a color Pictures have a color. It's it's yeah, it's it's arts and crafts time over here. It's it's something. It's something else It's tremendously helpful to see at a glance like you can see if you have I don't know how you like if your deadline color is like red or something like you could just look at a glance and see like blood on your
00:35:58
Speaker
I'm
00:36:14
Speaker
Phone conversations are orange if i'm going out to step i'm going out for to interview somebody or if i'm going out somewhere that yellow purple is pitch is a pitch it's some.
00:36:30
Speaker
It's something else. But there's no red. I use red to cross out the days. To me, that's like the conqueror. It's just, we've mowed down another day. Let's go to the next thing. So yeah, I'm a big color-coding guy. And really with freelancing, to me, a lot of it is organization.
00:36:54
Speaker
Keeping track of things and and and just keeping keeping an eye on when to reach out to people and and what it's your spinning plates I think you know that's that's what that's what this is you know there are ten plates that need to be spun and you're doing your best not to have a plate drop and shatter so
00:37:11
Speaker
Are most of your stories, do you do a lot of your features and stuff like over the phone? Or are you one of these guys who's able, or are you able to travel a lot too? Or do you keep pretty much a home base? Yeah, it's a home base. But yeah, it's a home base. And let me be clear, I wish it weren't. I think it's always better to do stories in person because you get so much more color that way.
00:37:39
Speaker
So I so if I if I can I want to try and go out and interview somebody at home but again a lot of my stuffers for national publications or or Or websites that have scopes. So yeah, I mean I can't you know Anifica there isn't a lot going on around here. So a lot of it is phone, but I try to go out and and and do on the scene reporting when it's possible I mean I did something for the New York Times a couple months ago on Ted G. Newell's the San Diego chicken and
00:38:09
Speaker
So I flew out to Des Moines, Iowa for that. And that made the story so much better. But when you do stories on the phone, the key that I found is to interview as many people as humanly possible so you can get the color. So you can get the color. Because other people can fill in the blanks. They can tell you things. Because if you talk to one person or two people or three people,
00:38:35
Speaker
You're not going to get that feel, that personal feel. So when I do stories that are multi-source over the phone, I'm calling as many people as I can. I think the stories are better for it.
00:38:54
Speaker
Right and usually when you're talking to talking to a source for a story of that nature when you're done to usually is ask them like hey who else should i speak to about this just to maybe get an extra domino. Oh absolutely yeah oh yeah i think i think that's that's that's my.
00:39:11
Speaker
That's my standard operating, that's how I end every phone conversation with, hey, who else can I talk to? Because again, if you're curious and you're genuine and you want to know more about the subject, people will volunteer a source because they want the story to be true, they want it to stand out.
00:39:36
Speaker
So yeah, I mean and that works 99% of the time. Every story that I've written that I'm proud of has that element of someone else saying, yeah, try this person, try that person.
00:39:55
Speaker
when the names start repeating, that's when you stop, that's when you kind of know you've made the round, so to speak. What does your, maybe the first hour to two hours of your day look like as you're gearing up and as you wake up and get going? Yeah, I mean typically what I do is I'm up, it's really going to change because my wife and I are expecting, my wife is due to give birth to our daughter in
00:40:24
Speaker
Oh, boy. The Sunday for Thanksgiving. So this so this routine may be completely different by the time this this podcast runs. Yeah. Congratulations, by the way. Oh, thank you. Yeah, we're we're thrilled. Your first first. Yeah, first. It's our first. Yeah. So it's so yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see how this routine
00:40:45
Speaker
It's just gonna be it's it's i think it's gonna be pal now for the first eighteen years so what so typically what i like to do is i get up with my wife because she's she's a professor at ithaca college so her day starts early so i'm usually up with her on seven we have breakfast.
00:41:02
Speaker
We talk about our day or what we want to do, you know, just basic stuff. Like, okay, well, I'll get this, you get that. Then I go downstairs to my office. We have a finished basement in our house, which is devoted to my office, which is great. It's huge. It's more than I deserve. And typically what I'll do is I'll answer emails. I'll check job sites.
00:41:27
Speaker
check Twitter, you know, that's what I'll do. I'll look at my schedule, see what has to be done. I might do a little bit of writing. I might send out a pitch. But you're right, that first hour or two really does affect the rest of the day. I think if you have a good first hour, the rest of the day is terrific. If it's a bad first hour,
00:41:55
Speaker
The day is pretty much hot garbage. I don't know why that is, but it's important for freelancers, I think, for anyone who's starting a freelancer to realize that's okay. If you have a bad day, if you have a day where you don't get half the stuff done, it's okay. There's tomorrow. Being a freelancer is having flexibility.
00:42:20
Speaker
So maybe the first, maybe Monday was bad, but okay, maybe Monday night will be better. Maybe you have some time to carve out to send some emails or to write a pitch. So it's important not to get down about how those first, how the day ends up. Because every time that you, when you rue, like, oh, I should have done this, I should have done that.
00:42:44
Speaker
You can't get it back. So you pack up, you think about what you need to do for tomorrow and you get it done the next
Balancing Passion and Practical Work
00:42:52
Speaker
day. You just can't do it every day. You have to just give yourself that mulligan and then start fresh tomorrow. So how do you balance the more high churn, low pay work with stuff that might pay better but takes more time to work on?
00:43:10
Speaker
Um, the key to that is, I think is, is starting that is starting the passionate work early so that it doesn't, it doesn't, so you're not, so you're not, it doesn't become super inconvenient. Like I'll give you an example. Um, I wrote a piece for Rolling Stone on, um, on Salem sportswear, which was this, um, this really innovative, very stylish, uh,
00:43:35
Speaker
a sports apparel company that came out that was big in the 80s and they sort of really redefined how the NBA marketed itself in terms of individuals. They were big on caricature shirts where you had, you know, let's say Isaiah Thomas and, you know, it was just Isaiah Thomas and a big head and dribbling a basketball. It was, I mean, it was just, it really revolutionized how, really revolutionized sports apparel, made it more personal. So with that story, I started that, I pitched the Rolling Stone, they accepted it,
00:44:05
Speaker
And I think I started it in February and I don't think it ran until May. So I typically work on this stuff like months in advance because that way you can work on it in drips and drabs and then you can do the higher priority stuff more easily. So let's say for example I have a corporate client that needs an article done on Tuesday.
00:44:31
Speaker
I can work on that while making the phone calls for the story, reporting, doing all the things that need to be done. It's easier to manage. So the key is to just start the passion to stuff, give yourself a lot of lead time.
00:44:45
Speaker
That way, you have the chance to make it right. And also, when it's a slow period, you can work on that low priority stuff. So it really is a balancing act. So yeah, that's what I try to do. I try and just give myself a ton of time that I can make all those phone calls. I can do all the edits. And I can do that while working on the higher priority stuff. What are some other gigs that people might not necessarily think of when they think freelance writing or freelance journalism?
00:45:14
Speaker
That's a good question. That's something that I think a lot of people fall prey to. They really want to focus on their interests, which is great. They should. That's why you get into freelancing. I don't think anyone is getting into freelancing due to the same work they were doing before. There is this trap where you only want to write film stuff or environmental stuff.
00:45:41
Speaker
And then by doing that, you miss out on the stuff that you need to keep your fingers flowing and to put money in your pocket. And there are some great places to start. College magazines are always great. I think that's really an untapped market. And I've done some writing for a few of them. Let's see, there's that.
00:46:04
Speaker
See, that's a that's always a big one. I would also local mag local magazines local like any magazines or a ton of them like in the city near you like if you go I Remember going into Princeton, which is probably the the coolest city Near East Brunswick and grabbing, you know every weekly free weekly that was I could find and I
00:46:27
Speaker
came across one that I'm still writing for now, which is Icon, which is based in New Hope. And I've been writing for them for, God, 10 years now. So local publications, even newspapers, if you're into arts and entertainment writing, there's always free weeklies like that. College magazines are really good. Another thing to do, and this is gonna sound really rudimentary, is instead of throwing out the phone book,
00:46:56
Speaker
go into the yellow, keep the phone book, go into the yellow pages and look to see what publishers are in the area. What magazines are in the area? Because I found a gig in Ithaca, which is where I am now, by doing just that. Oh, this is a... What's Momentum publishing? Oh, they're cool. So I wrote a letter to the editor there and I've been writing for them for about six months. So I'm trying to think if there's anything else.
00:47:21
Speaker
Job, also going on job boards, going on places like journalism jobs, freelance writing gigs.
00:47:29
Speaker
um craigslist is also good if you can smell out the scams and there are plenty of them oh brother there are so many of them so you just so and also just word of mouth telling people like hey i'm writing hey i'm doing i'm freelancing now you know not just um you know not just uh people that you've worked with but family and friends you know you never you never know when something comes out so those are a few avenues and i'm sure i'm forgetting some but but those are those are
00:47:57
Speaker
four or five really good starts. You have to just mix it up. You can't just rely on one thing because you're never going to find work just going down one road. You have to reuse five or six. It's like a quarterback reading routes like, okay, well, the first wide receiver is covered. Okay, where's my secondary? You have to know where each receiver is on the field. Yeah, that's a really good point.
00:48:20
Speaker
I wonder too, as you kind of wrap things up because I want to be respectful of your time.
Career Highlights and Affirmation
00:48:28
Speaker
No, I have plenty of time. Whatever you need to ask me, I'm here. Cool. Well, let me ask you, what is your proudest moment so far as a freelance writer? Maybe that first big byline or just one that you really hang your hat on. What makes you smile when you reflect on that?
00:48:50
Speaker
In 2013, I wrote, getting into Grantland, writing for Grantland. I know it's a shame that website is gone, because that was such a great website, and you could just get everything there. And the talent level was just through the roof. And writing for Grantland, writing a 2,500 word feature, getting it published, and then seeing that I'm just in the same site with
00:49:19
Speaker
Jonathan Abrams and Wesley Morris and You know Andy Greenwald and all these guys. Yeah, it was it was it was like what the hell am I doing here? It's it's like, you know, it's it was like what it's like, what planet is this? Why don't how do I got it? It was just it was one of those and that was the more I felt like yeah, I I I can run with these guys I mean, I mean I I may not get into every play but I
00:49:46
Speaker
I can run with these guys and I can do good work at the best places and that was one of those moments that really made me proud. The first big feature I had done was for Grantland and just getting in there and seeing it on the side and
00:50:07
Speaker
and the feedback, it was, that was amazing. And that was a feeling that I want to, and that's a feeling to hold onto, because it's, it was just, it was incredible. I had no, and then a few months later getting in the Times, getting in your Times, getting like the front page of the sports section on a Wednesday was, it was so gratifying, because you just, because you don't think, I never thought I would be in these places, I never thought I would be
00:50:38
Speaker
writing for the times, or writing for Bill Simmons' site. I mean, a guy that I used to waste my lunch hours reading because he was like my only salvation. Like, oh, Bill's writing. Let me read. Let me read. He has to say, oh, man, it was surreal. And that's the thing I don't want to lose. I don't want to lose that sense of wonder and that sense of
00:50:59
Speaker
just being genuinely touched by something like that. And even when I write a story, I never want to lose that curiosity. I never want to lose that thrill. Because when that gets old, then maybe I should start looking for something else to do. But it hasn't yet. Oh, that's wonderful. I think that's a perfect place for us to end on right now, Pete. One last thing. Where can people find you online?
00:51:24
Speaker
People can find me online probably Twitter is the best bet and that's just my name. It's Pete Croato CR OA to tease as in Thomas Oh at Pete Croato and I have a I have a blog, you know, I have a link to my tumblers there and I update that occasionally at some point at some point I hope you have a proper website with clips and a bio and and contact information but I but I
00:51:51
Speaker
But yeah, right now, the Twitter is where I'm doing most of my business. And I've had no problems there. So yeah, Twitter is the best bet. Fantastic. Well, we'll have to, at some point or another, when the dust settles from you becoming a newly minted father, we'll have to have maybe a round two where we talk about some of the other stories you've written instead of just this real granular talk on freelancing.
00:52:16
Speaker
I'd be happy to and hopefully I'll be more coherent the next time around. This was incredibly insightful and entertaining and it's good for me to hear every now and again because in this biz, as you know, sometimes it's easy to get bogged down and a bit demoralized. Hearing you talk about it in your practice and how you've grown from zero to where you are now, it's really inspiring for me and I know it'll be inspiring for anyone who chooses to spend an hour with us here.
00:52:45
Speaker
hearing you talk about this stuff. Yeah, I'm happy to. I mean, Jeff Perlman says it best, you know, writers help writers. So I think, you know, and there are so many people who have helped me so many, you know, whether starting from journalism school, starting from college through my first jobs, even now, writers help writers. So I'm happy if so of anything that I said that I say has helps anybody that's
00:53:13
Speaker
That's fantastic. So I'm happy to do this. Fantastic. Well, thanks again, Pete. We'll certainly be in touch down the road. Thanks again for your time. You got it, Brendan. Take care. Thanks so much. You got it. Talk to you later.