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Murdaugh Murders, Part 6
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In this episode, we walk through the minutes and hours immediately following the murders of Paul and Maggie Murdaugh.
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Transcript
Introduction: Hosts and Their Hyper-Fixation
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyper fixations fly.
Murdaugh Murders Overview and Timeline Introduction
00:00:15
Speaker
Today we are fixating on the Murdaugh murders.
Significance of Moselle Property Layout
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello, welcome back. We are going to continue walking through the timeline of the Murda murders. We talked about the kind of like literally the hours and minutes before. And then last episode, you got some of Joy's like Moselle walkthrough information. And so now we're going to pick back up in the literal minutes and hours after the murders of Paul and Maggie.
00:00:55
Speaker
And I do want to tie it a little bit back to, I mean, I know maybe I hyper fixate on the whole layout of Moselle, but I think it's so important to this story. So I do want to kind of harken back to to the things we talked about or things I talked about last in the last episode, because I do think it's important when we're going through the the direct aftermath to understand that.
00:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. All right. Let's talk sources before we jump in. We used the Murdaugh Murders, a Southern Scandal from Netflix, Murdaugh Murders Podcast, WJCL News, ABC News, People Magazine, Inside Edition, AP News, Wikipedia, and the books Swamp Kings and The Devil at His Elbow.
Murdaugh Timeline: Unread Texts and Murder Timing
00:01:43
Speaker
Okay, where we left off at the timeline was 8.49 p.m. where Paul's friend Rogan texted him ah to see a picture of his dog who was at the Moselle property and that text had remained unread. And was integral into the ultimate solving of the murder.
00:02:02
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that that always blows my mind that how important that those like Snapchats and texts end up being from Paul. Yeah, it especially since his phone was at like one percent. And I'm one of those people who uses my phone up to that point. So I don't use my phone up to that point, but I will drive my car to one percent gas.
00:02:23
Speaker
I like to live on the edge. Oh, yeah. So at 8.50 p.m., investigators believe that Maggie and Paul were
Weapons and Theories of Multiple Shooters
00:02:30
Speaker
killed. Paul was shot twice with a shotgun, once in the chest and once in the head.
00:02:35
Speaker
Maggie was shot five times with 300 blackout ammo from an AR-style rifle, and two of the shots hit her head. And I think guns are important here.
00:02:47
Speaker
also think through this case, I have It's kind of made me understand the different types of guns more. And so with Paul and the shotgun used, I mean, the shotgun's usually used on like large animal hunting. So they are like large, don't know if they call them bullets or shots or whatever. And they just are so destructive.
00:03:10
Speaker
and blow things apart right and so yeah i i mean i hate it's terrible to imagine but a close range the shots to paul you can only imagine how much destruction it must have done to his physical body yeah and then the blackout i mean that's with like a semi-automatic right so you can those shots can fly off fast, maybe not as damaging though, when especially when they're not the aiming um is not precise, which my guess is it was done in the quick moment. What do you make of the two different weapons being used? I mean, i know there's been a lot of talk about that definitely having to be two different shooters. I don't think so. Now, I mean, I don't think that everything played out the way that the trial did and the way that... um Kind of the narrative been drawn, but I don't think it was in the least bit unusual for them to have two loaded weapons in the back of a golf cart. As crazy as that may seem to to other people, it's just like the hog hunting. Like, you know, I'm in Texas. So like I hear about these hogs and like they're just scavengers. Everyone wants them just gone. i mean, hate to say this sounds awful, but if you're a hunter, it's kind of like you get a chance to hunt, get a chance to kill something. So um i do I don't think there was anything strange about that. And I think i mean i tend to i think it kind of happens spur of the moment. And I think Alex just grabbed them.
00:04:42
Speaker
don't think it was pre-planned. I think they were just there. Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if like maybe one was actually in the dog kennel area and one was in the golf cart and it was... That it was kind of my thinking. i don't I don't know. So like one was maybe they always have one where the dogs are in case a critter's around or something. And snakes. A lot of people have them like.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah. And so maybe like the shotgun was in the kennel and the other
Role of Phone Data Post-Murders
00:05:10
Speaker
weapon was in the golf cart. And yeah just a matter of like location. And maybe they weren't both in.
00:05:16
Speaker
I don't know Yeah. No. You know what? I hadn't thought about it that way. For some reason, I always envisioned them like, I don't know what both sitting in the back of the golf cart, but. um No, that makes a lot of sense what you say. And I mean, I was watching something the other day and they were talking about like how on a ranch or whatever, they always have a ah loaded shotgun basically for snakes.
00:05:35
Speaker
and Yeah. And we talked a bit about this before we re recorded, but their kids are old enough to not, you know, it's not like a, it's still obviously a safety concern having loaded weapons anywhere, but it's not like you have toddlers running around with loaded weapons around the house anymore. It's basically grown children who've been raised with guns and we'll know how to handle them also. So I don't think the gun thing, I don't think that that,
00:06:05
Speaker
It was premeditated. I think that was just kind of normal in a way. Yeah. Also, i mean, the shotgun would have only had a couple shells and in it. So you would have – he would have had to grab the other weapon if in the moment – I mean, which is how I envision it. I mean, in the moment is that he panicked and, you know, turned it on Aggie. Yeah.
00:06:30
Speaker
Now, the five shots into Maggie, that seems excessive. Also, though, i have been, I mean, i don't know, Blanca has a new book out, The Housekeeper. Yeah.
00:06:41
Speaker
And, i mean, some of the things she indicates, I mean, she she definitely thinks there was other parties involved. She never specifically says, but... kind of has some specific people in mind. And I think she even refers to them as like the cleaners. Like they came in and cleaned up the, cleaned up the, ah this the, the, the area.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah. And so, like, it doesn't a hundred. I mean, maybe, maybe there was somebody else there. I mean, that I'm not quite as. Yeah, because she could also meet people who are involved not on the scene or that are dictating things. Right, right. You know, that could also be what she's implying.
Phone Data as Key Evidence
00:07:25
Speaker
It's so frenetic. Yeah, I can't wait to read that book. I can't wait to read that book because I've just seen, like, a brief overview, the interview with her. But I think it's going to offer a lot of insight. That's a different insight. And I think like what we'll see, because we're going to go through these minute by minute things, and it just gets like, it feels frenetic and panicked.
00:07:46
Speaker
And to me, that says that he was the only person there. And that if it were some sort of professional, the like the weird things that happen with the phones, said like he's panicking. And i just I just feel like if there was someone else there, it would it would have been a little bit more and perhaps. Maybe comm's not the right word, but i don't I don't even know what a word it would be. I agree. Because I also get the feeling if there was somebody else there, they would be more panicked.
00:08:15
Speaker
hate to say it like professional more seasoned yeah yeah so I mean I don't I don't know I mean for 100% I don't i I mean I think Alex responsible sure and I think he literally pulled the trigger on at least yeah one I tend to think both but um yeah yeah I have pretty strong feelings about how I think it played out but I'll let you kind of stick to your timeline not jump up right So yeah, now we're going to get into all these weird phone things happening that it's like, it's so, even now that he's been convicted, it's so unclear like what matters and what doesn't in this course of events. It's like, did he, did someone just pick up the phone and something weird happened? Or what like, was he trying to race? So I'm just going to lay it all out and i don't know, we could decide if anything matters or doesn't. Right. Because you could read into absolutely everything happening, but then again, like part of it's just, you're going to be like,
00:09:06
Speaker
You know, you're just having a day. um i You're just having a day. I do think it's amazing how much information we can
Implications of Post-Murder Phone Calls
00:09:13
Speaker
pull from our phones. Yes. And how close can pinpoint the hour, at the time of the actual death based on just the phone stopping. It says so much about how how often and how much we use our phones and how they're so attached to us.
00:09:31
Speaker
And actually the fact that I've been thinking about – no, I'll go on. You go ahead and – You start first. Okay. All right. So the investigators believe that the murders occurred at 8.50 p.m. At 8.53, the orientation of Maggie's phone changes, which activated the face ID feature.
00:09:50
Speaker
But the phone remained locked. And ah investigators say this suggests that it was picked up by someone else. From then to 8.55 p.m., Maggie's phone tracks 59 steps.
00:10:04
Speaker
At 8.55 p.m., Maggie's phone takes a screenshot. Didn't know that. I did not realize that. Yeah, I think it was like a black, like you couldn't see anything. No, was a screenshot. du It was just like the basic like screen, like yeah somebody maybe fumbling around not knowing what they're doing and hitting buttons.
00:10:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. we're I'm not an iPhone. Well, I would have never done that. What? Never. I was going to say, like, I don't have an iPhone, so I don't know how to take a screenshot on an iPhone. I know. um Everyone else does.
00:10:34
Speaker
But how easy is it to take a screenshot in your pocket? I do it all the time. I also, I did not realize the detail that they could get from the iPhones, like with the orientation. know. Yeah, that was, I had never heard that before. Yeah, that's crazy. 9.02 to 9.06 p.m., Alex's phone unlocks and tracks 283 steps. Okay, now let's talk about Alex's phone. His phone was not down the kennels, correct?
00:11:05
Speaker
I thought he had left his phone up at the house. So I'm wondering if when those steps happened, if he was back up wherever he could get back to his phone. Am I wrong on that? Yeah. Between about 8.10 to then, his phone had recorded no steps. So it was either that he wasn't moving or that the phone wasn't moving.
00:11:25
Speaker
And this is when he claimed he was asleep. we Okay. Okay. So I guess then if we picture what was going on. So yeah, Maggie, the the thought would be, After she was shot, somebody grabbed her phone, fumbled around with it. And there's seven minutes that her phone tracked 59 steps. So it could be going from wherever he was to the golf cart.
00:11:46
Speaker
Right, right. And then there's seven minutes before his phone is unlocked at 9.02. Which to me would seem just, if you go back to the layout of Moselle, it seems like if you took a golf cart, that would be a about the exact time. it um It seems like it's about maybe a quarter of a mile walk is what it looks like from that.
00:12:05
Speaker
okay got the time so that would make sense now do we see anything is there anything at during this time with paul's phone like nothing no okay nothing yeah i don't think paul's phone is touched again well
00:12:26
Speaker
for a little while But yeah, I think my guess is that I think it was touch. But I wonder when it when his snapped off or when because he was down like his phone was dead. when Nothing was being tracked more. So nothing would have tracked.
00:12:39
Speaker
I forgot about that. All right. at 9.04 p.m., Alex calls Maggie's phone. But there was no record of the call on the phone itself, which means it was on phone logs after the fact.
00:12:53
Speaker
So he deleted it from his phone, I believe is what that means. Okay. Now, I don't understand quite why he would do that. i don't know. i mean, because I would think about like trying to set up an alabama, making it look like you were there. But if he deleted it, I'm not sure. I'm not sure why that would be. but Yeah, because he does it a minute later at 9.05 where he calls called his father.
00:13:11
Speaker
That call lasted 18 seconds. And again, there was no record of it. okay Okay. At 9.06 p.m., Maggie's phone orientation changes again. and at the same time, Alex called Maggie's phone twice.
00:13:24
Speaker
Obviously, those went unanswered. But again, there's no record on Alex's phone. Yeah, because again, to me, my thinking always was that like he was trying to make it look like he was trying to get a hold of her. Or like again, trying to use that as almost like a little bit of an yeah alibi. But I still go back to why would he delete them? and Right.
00:13:44
Speaker
So after the two phone calls to Maggie's phone at 9.07 p.m., Alex Carr leaves heading to Almeida. Almeida, Almeida. I say Almeida, but I don't know.
00:13:56
Speaker
Can I give you a quick interesting aside about Alameda? Please. It was a property. The property had been owned um in the family for a long time. But the house actually, like their physical house that was on it, again, I'm sorry, that had been in the family for a long time. Like I think it was like where his dad had grown up or whatever. And they physically moved to the house. It had been like and like closer to downtown um Hampton.
00:14:22
Speaker
And um they actually had it at some point physically like lifted and moved. That's crazy. Stuff like that blows my mind. Yeah, it does. It does mine too. Right.
00:14:33
Speaker
But interesting. I also have never lived in a house that doesn't have a basement. So I'm like, will just leave a big hole? How do you do that? To leave a big hole in the ground? How do we do that?
00:14:45
Speaker
That's funny. I never would have thought that. Because I've had a long time since I had a basement. I'm in the basement right now. And I'm like, would the floor just
Alex's Actions and Mindset Post-Murder
00:14:52
Speaker
lift up? Yeah.
00:14:57
Speaker
So at 9.08 p.m., Alex's car drives by where Maggie's phone would later be found. And the car increased speed after passing the location of where the phone would end up. So presumably he took it, chucked it out the window, sped out of there.
00:15:13
Speaker
At the about the same time, Alex texted Maggie's phone saying he was going to check on his mother. At 9.10 p.m., Alex called Buster. That call lasted 60 seconds. Did we ever hear what that what that call was? I assume he got a hold of him then. I think, so I'm guessing so too, and I don't think we've ever learned what that was. Learned what that conversation was, yeah. Yeah. To be clear, I do not think Buster had anything to, I mean, I, yeah, I'm sorry.
00:15:41
Speaker
No, I think. Well, I mean, honestly, I think if Buster had been involved in any way, he'd be in prison like they wouldn't. No one would let him get away with it. So I like I truly don't think Buster was involved in this. I don't yeah think so.
00:15:55
Speaker
I think he was probably his dad was calling in a panic. No, I'm sure. I mean, I think in that this point, I definitely think he's trying to kind of make. set his out by like me oh yeah like okay so that's interesting i didn't think about it like that he could very well be calling buster and being like i'm going over to see grandma i feel like that i feel like that's what he was doing but i don't know and not like get to the house i killed everybody I'm going to guess not.
00:16:20
Speaker
No, probably just like, hey, what did you do? And I'm checking on grandma. Don't come over. oh goodness. At 9.12 p.m., Alex called his friend and attorney, Chris Wilson. And this call lasted two minutes.
00:16:36
Speaker
A bit of devil's advocate. Like, I don't think him calling a friend and an attorney is crazy because he is an attorney. And so it's like, yeah, it looks iffy after everything going on doesn't look great, but it's also not like a smoking gun. Yeah, I can see that one either way. I'm not sure which way to make of it.
00:16:56
Speaker
At 9.18, Alex called his brother, John, and that call lasted 106 seconds. And that call was also erased from his phone. 9.20, the attorney, Chris, called Alex back, and that call lasted three minutes.
00:17:13
Speaker
Let me just do a brief interlude that I already know I'm saying Alex a million different ways, and everyone's just to have to deal with it. I think... I don't think any of us know exactly. I always say Alex. can't remember. That's that like my brain wants me to say Alec and then I see it and I'm like, it says Alex and I can't make my mouth do that.
Exploring Alex's Motivations and Drug Addiction
00:17:34
Speaker
and It just doesn't make sense.
00:17:36
Speaker
I can't do it. ah At 9.22 p.m., he arrived at his mother's home, but he stopped halfway up the driveway and parked.
00:17:47
Speaker
And it was recorded as this moment that he was getting to the house was the fastest that his car had gone that day. We don't know how long he parked for, do we? I mean, I assume we're talking...
00:17:58
Speaker
It must have been like less than a minute, right? I think so. 924, Shelly Smith, Libby Murdaugh's caregiver, got a call from Alex. He was asking to be let in.
00:18:10
Speaker
She told him that she couldn't get to the door for about five minutes and that his mother was asleep. But the whole time that he was there, she said that he was on his phone.
00:18:21
Speaker
So he didn't even really interact with his mother. She was sleeping. He was just there. Interesting. I didn't even realize he was on the phone the whole time. Yeah. Did you watch her testimony though? No.
00:18:31
Speaker
Oh my gosh. She was like the sweetest lady and you could tell the pain like that she was going through. Like you could tell she loved the family and didn't want and felt like they were good people. And it was, but at the same time, she, she knew something was wrong. And it's just like, there's so much damage.
00:18:51
Speaker
Yeah. But you yeah, it's – I mean, if you've never watched the trial, it's it's painful to watch. um Yeah. Her emotion, yeah. I actually didn't watch the trial purposely because I knew I wouldn't stop watching the trial. yeah.
00:19:06
Speaker
It was the same with the Chad Daybell-Laurie Vallow trials. Like, I just knew if I turned it on, I wouldn't stop. oh that was like my background listening to cleaning the house for days. So I didn't stop.
00:19:17
Speaker
I just – I had to, I had, i I would just sit and watch the whole time. Like I wouldn't get anything else done. So I, I, I know myself enough to know i shouldn't do that. Very interesting title. You will have to sometime go back and at least see, watch Alec, um, his testimony.
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah.
Comprehensive Timeline and Chaos Post-Murder
00:19:34
Speaker
at At 934, Rogan texted Maggie to have Paul call him after not hearing from him for so long. That message went unread. And that seems totally normal then. Yeah.
00:19:47
Speaker
He's waiting to hear about his dog. Yeah. At 935 to 945, Alex phone tracked 60 steps. At 943 to 44, his vehicle went out and then back in and then out again of park.
00:20:03
Speaker
So it's like he was getting ready to leave. He stopped. He's getting ready to leave. He stopped. and Okay, so basically then, what let's see how much time does that leave him being, so he was there for less less than 20 minutes, basically. just less than 20 minutes. Okay.
00:20:19
Speaker
And didn't he mention, like, within that time he had watched Wheel of Fortune? i don't know. yeah He said he had watched Wheel of Fortune with his mom, who I guess was asleep. I don't know. It's like she's asleep. And he's on the phone. but And I don't know. It could be different South Carolina, but I'm on the East Coast and Wheel of Fortune was always on at 7 p.m. I think it was like the game show channel. Yeah, right. Like if we're going on that timeline, he's not correct. 9.46, I'm
00:20:49
Speaker
nine forty six Alex called Paul. There was an 18 second connection. Then there is no record of that call on his phone. At 947, Alex texted Maggie, call me, babe.
00:21:06
Speaker
And I put it direct quotes because he put call and he added the letter E at the end. so Something tells me that was not out of the ordinary for That's Ted White included. I was like, that feels not abnormal. And of course that text went unread. So that's, I think him definitely trying to lay out an alibi. It seems like in that 20 minutes, he was formulating plans, his mind, or if we want to play devil's advocate, calling John Marvin, calling Chris Wilson. I don't know.
00:21:39
Speaker
Gave him some, but I don't think that, i really don't think that's it. Yeah. At 9.52, Alex texted Chris Wilson again. um Chris called back, but Alex didn't answer. At 9.53, Chris called again, and Alex does answer and told him he would call him when he got home. 9.54, Alex's car reached miles per hour.
00:22:04
Speaker
And at 9.56 to p.m., Alex's phone tracked steps. at nine fifty seven rogan called paul and there was no answer And at 9.58, Rogan texted Paul, quote, yo.
00:22:24
Speaker
At 10 p.m., Alex is back home. Okay, so let's stop here and think about that 9.56 Alex tracks 231 while he's
00:22:31
Speaker
checks two hundred and thirty one steps while he's So i mean he I'm assuming the car stops at one point. He gets out. Yeah. What's that? What do you think? Is that hiding weapons? Is that... Could he be at the... Like, I just don't know the li if there's a spot that his car could end up being kind of closest to the kennel and not the house.
00:22:50
Speaker
Oh. Or is it far enough away that he could be disposing of things? ok And yeah, um I guess because we don't know exactly where his car...
00:23:01
Speaker
It is, right? I mean, we don't... yeah And it does the the kennels do have a fully separate entrance. So you don't... I don't know if you've ever seen the pictures. You have if you've seen my video. of The like long...
00:23:13
Speaker
oak lines driveway um it yeah there's a completely separate entrance where you'd go to the kennels and i my guess is that for sure would probably be where it almost seems like it would be used most people would go in that route but okay so it could yeah perhaps something like that that he's he's not at the house and at 10 o'clock he's back at the house i'm not sure i mean he's got to be hiding the clothes right at some time the bloody yeah yeah weapons somewhere so 1001 to 1004 Once again, the car that Alex is driving goes in and out and in and out of park at the main house.
00:23:50
Speaker
So it finally goes into park and then goes out of park again. It's like he I just see him being like, OK, I'm going to go this way. I'm just going to go over here and then' be like, no, just wait here for them to come. there It's like, no, I have to go. Like, it just feels so panicked and chaotic. Yes.
00:24:09
Speaker
Again, amazing that our cars, that we can be able to track this stuff. Listen, not not my car. My car's a little. but Not quite that up to date with technology.
00:24:22
Speaker
That's funny. I also, um because if you ever actually listen to the testimony, they knew like exactly where Paul's phone was and he must've had his location services turned on.
00:24:33
Speaker
Whereas Alex, they can track the steps, right? But it's, but yeah, like with Paul's, they know exactly like where he walked and stuff. So Alec must not have had his location services, which yeah my guess is he was also, I mean.
00:24:45
Speaker
could just be he didn't want turn him on. Interesting. But also that would mean nobody was tracking him. Right. Right. At 10.05, Rogan called Buster. and that call lasted two seconds. I'm assuming he didn't answer. He really wanted to hear about his dog's tail. I mean, I would start being like, i need nobody's talking about my dog.
00:25:05
Speaker
And it probably also goes to show how, generally speaking, Paul would have been easy to get a a hold of. Like, constantly, it seems like, ah yeah hey, wait a minute. Right. can get hold Paul anytime. Because if he's like going through the list of people to try to get the information, yeah, it must be unusual. Yeah. and And I do think that was probably a red flag to him. It's like, okay, Paul's not answering. And right he just texted me. He's worried about like, like it right it's not like a life or death text, but it's like, hey, I'm worried about something yeah with your dog and that now he's not answering. So that's alarming.
00:25:43
Speaker
Right. Out of character of some. Yeah. Yeah. At the same time, Alex Carr drives to the kennels. At 10.06, Alex calls 911 to report the murders, and he said he was not home. After the seven-minute call, he hangs up to start calling family.
00:26:00
Speaker
Alex's brothers, John and Randy, arrive at the home shortly after. Okay, so let's just talk about like what's happening in this point i'm sorry you said he says he's not when he calls 911 he says he's not at home he says he wasn't home i think oh i hate the murders happen when it happened or whatever happened okay i mean do you think i mean i guess this behavior if you drove up you drove in he knew enough that he had to quote discover the bodies before making the call right but i always think logistic logically right i
00:26:36
Speaker
Because this is where i get really... it doesn't seem like he went and touched the bodies. No, I don't think he did. And that's always struck me as strange. like i and yeah But I can't put my own mind in the position of what you would do if yeah Paul's body was his in bad shape as it it seems to have been. could see how... i mean, it would be obvious that he is not alive and...
00:27:06
Speaker
Although I think at some point he claims he checked his polls. Yeah, I think you're right. don't know. But then would you not turn the body? I i would. i Like you said, like we can't put ourselves in that position, of course. But I think for my spouse and my child, I would still be checking for any signs of life.
00:27:27
Speaker
Right, right. It just didn't seem like he was focused on that. And I mean, Maggie's body was shot, but i don't even think he ever talks about checking her pulse. I'm not even sure. But I mean, no again, like how because because he had no blood on him. In a way, that's more suspicious to me. mean, come on. you would There's no way that bodies would be there and I would not in some way. Yeah, touch them. Right.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. Because even with the shape, if he did say, and I do think he did say he tried to check Paul's pulse, with the way, the shape that his body was in, Alex would have had something on him.
00:28:08
Speaker
Right. Even just checking a pulse and not touching anything else. There's no way. Right. He also said something else about about Paul. And I think that this is such a little tiny key. I guess um when he was interviewing afterwards, he talked about how he kind because he did indicate he kind of tried to turn him over. And that's when his cell phone popped out of his pocket.
00:28:36
Speaker
He made, right like definitely like made, ah proactively made an issue out of that. And I believe from like the police reports, like the cell phone was like sitting almost like it was placed on his back or on his bottom.
00:28:52
Speaker
Like not in a natural position. Like, like I think that's key right there. Right. Right. You know why I think it's key. Tell me why you think it's key. I think it's key because I think Paul had his drugs. Right.
00:29:06
Speaker
Paul had Alex drugs? I think Paul had the baggie or whatever. i think Paul had, I mean, Alex talked about the fact that with his like ah Percocet or whatever, he was, don't if was Percocet. remember what he was taking. His hydrocodone of some sort. um That he had like kind of always had it in a baggie and that's what we had heard, that he had hidden it and that Blanca had found it like under various points in the house. And then Paul was the little detective who was kind of searching it out. And I think that Paul had it in his pocket.
00:29:44
Speaker
Okay. And I can absolutely see that. So and so i'mnna I'm going to go off on this a little bit because I think this is a key to this whole everything.
00:29:56
Speaker
If you listened to my um podcast last week, like I said, they could track exactly where Paul moved to because his location services were on, not just his set.
00:30:09
Speaker
So they know there was a little caretaker's house down there, um not too far from the kennels. And they know that Paul specifically went to the caretaker's um cabin, like after they had him and um Alec had kind of rode the property a little earlier. um Nobody's ever, I never heard anyone comment on that.
00:30:30
Speaker
My 100% theory is that that's where Paul Alec was stashing his medication, his drugs so that they didn't get found. That's why, because Blanca had found them before in the house.
00:30:42
Speaker
He had put it in there. Paul, the little sleuth. ah Right. new Went out there, grabbed them, had them. Yeah. Alex had had this awful day, right? Cause he had been confronted about the finances. His dad was in the hot, he had this terrible day.
00:31:00
Speaker
think he was starting to withdraw and panic. Needed his drugs. They weren't there. Needed, knew that they weren't there because Paul grabbed them. And Paul was probably the only person that was in that cabin. Right. Because they had, yeah, moved about. Because they had driven around together. The way I envision it is, yeah, Paul was over in that feed room.
00:31:19
Speaker
And that would be a good time for Alec to kind of corner him where Maggie wasn't right there to say, hey, give me my drugs. Do we think even like he got – and he – when he testifies, he even says when you're withdrawing, when not like when you're in withdrawal, you will do just about anything to get that drug.
00:31:42
Speaker
I mean, I've never gone through withdrawals like that, but I've heard they're pretty bad. And he could have – well, and also there are physical effects of withdrawing. There's shaking and, you know, sweating. Sure. And he yeah could have even been a thing of, like, he picked up the shotgun to threaten him and is shaky and it's loaded. We know it's loaded.
00:32:04
Speaker
Something accidentally happened that he's still 100% culpable for. But I'm not saying that. But – and right yeah did not not making an yeah but and the way you pointed it out that I like I hadn't thought about that that the gun very well could have just been right there in the kennel and yeah when confronting Paul he was he grabbed it I mean again not intending to actually use it and then it accidentally or or whatever i mean maybe accidentally because it was with you know because of movements or and some crazy moment he could have just
00:32:41
Speaker
done it yeah and then panicked maggie comes running over of course and in that crazy moment just what do you do i don't know yeah i mean i could see there's no way to put your mind like yourself in his head space but panic grab the other gun right like he ran she ran to the kennel he ran outside to perhaps stop her from going into the kennel And some sort of argument started that around the golf cart and he pulled the weapon from in the golf cart to stop her from going in or something or being a witness because she they were separated, right?
00:33:17
Speaker
or except like they were that kind of question. I mean, i' I think it's up in the air, but. like I think they were, you know what, kind of a couple had been 30 years married. He had obviously done some pretty bad stuff. I mean, I think she loved – yeah. i don't I don't know that – I don't think there had been like – I think there were some rumors that she had actually gone to a divorce attorney, and I don't think that. Yeah, things were rocky. Things weren't great. But it's not unreasonable to for the attorney to realize that – If she does end up filing, like I just killed her kid, she's going to leave and she's going to testify against me. Sure.
00:33:55
Speaker
No matter. Yeah. I mean, and again, we're talking split seconds. Yeah. And if we're right, he's in the middle withdrawing and like out of his mind. Yeah.
00:34:06
Speaker
But to me, i going back to the cell phone, that's what has always happened. because that's the only thing he says. he touched the body. Kind of sometimes says he was checking the pulse, but says he kind of started turning it over.
00:34:18
Speaker
he made a specific point that the phone popped out. I just think it was an odd thing for him to really point out. Now it could have been because he was trying to get in to erase the call.
00:34:30
Speaker
I don't even think that. I mean, I think he knew he didn't have the passcode to get into it. Yeah. I don't think he cared about the phone. think he wanted to get in the pocket and get the drugs. He also later, when he is interviewed by the police, in one of his subsequent interviews, said part of his paranoia for lying was that he had a baggie of drugs in his pocket, which he could always had. Who knows? But that would also make sense if he had described it. So don't know. That is, I mean, in a nutshell, what I think happened. Yeah.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah, that makes 100% sense to me. And maybe with what Blanca said, there were outside forces also moving in. So it's not necessarily like someone was on the property and also did it. Right. But in addition to all of these things happening, like the walls are closing in with whoever is above him or is working with him.
00:35:24
Speaker
And I think, again, listen to my podcast last week. I think there's there's definitely connections to some kind of drug smuggling going and...
Impact of Drug Addiction on Alex's Actions
00:35:36
Speaker
Alec being involved at some level, we don't know. But um just like kind of we've talked about with the Micah Miller case, i I think he got in over his head with some bad people. Don't know if that had to do with this. yeah But again, Blanca has in our interview said something about essentially that there was a group of people that she's familiar with with that he was involved with that were outside of their regular circle of So, I mean, it I don't know exactly how they could have have been involved. Yeah.
00:36:11
Speaker
Because I do think the difference um between what we think, like, Alex was involved with and J.P. Miller is we know that J.P. has used drugs. Yeah.
00:36:26
Speaker
I don't think addiction was playing a part in it and whatever was going on with it as it was with Alex. And if he's like touching a supply that he shouldn't be that's going to make people very angry.
00:36:41
Speaker
Right. No, I agree. Oh, yeah. Or if he hasn't paid somebody something. I mean, and and maybe we'll do a whole episode on what – I mean, actually, I'd like to on – I touched on it, but a lot has to do with the geography of, ah again, a river coming through his property. a guest house, which could have been a stash house. The house previously had that, you know, so we could do a whole episode on that, but yeah, maybe we should. And talk about also, we could pull out some of our YouTube videos that we did about like the geography of South Carolina and talk about those types of things too. I think that's, it's very interesting episode. All right.
00:37:17
Speaker
Jotting that down. You just like, you just like to talk about the black water rivers. They're so cool. I know. I know. um Yeah, let's just, I really would like to do one, but back to the matter at hand, I guess. Whether there's a bigger picture not with with that, I think in the moment he wanted
Conclusion and Future Topics
00:37:37
Speaker
his drug. You know, also, i mean, I, like many people, right after the fact, when he talked about, like, when this all kind of came down and he blamed his addiction and it seemed like an excuse or whatever, i don't think it was. I mean, i I initially, too, like, was like, okay, come on. Yeah. But I think the addiction was- I have this like I my entire life and I think this is it is a neurodivergent thing. I explain myself to death, right? Like anything I do, I explain myself to death and all through school when I was undiagnosed teachers who didn't like me would say things like stop making excuses. And in my brain, I'd be like, I'm explaining why, like, that's not an excuse. And I never, like to this day, I have a really difficult time with that concept of like, I'm not, I'm not making an excuse. I'm explaining why I did, or I didn't do the thing.
00:38:26
Speaker
And I don't know why you're mad at me. and So I could see that he's not necessarily like blaming, like saying his addiction made him do it. as like my neurodivergent brain would be like, I know perfectly well this played a part in it. And I'm just telling you the circumstances or you know what I mean? But that's something I like to this day. I'm like, yeah somebody will be annoyed with me at work for something. And I'll be like, oh, you misunderstood or I misunderstood. And that's all it is. It's because like, you're taking this in a way that I didn't intend it because I don't understand the concept of an excuse when I'm just explaining to you.
00:39:03
Speaker
ah i But I think it was very entrenched. And weirdly enough, I think he felt so much shame over it because that didn't come out even as his excuse like right away. Yeah.
00:39:16
Speaker
I think there is so much internal shame um yeah about that hidden aspect of his life. And I think he did keep it probably pretty well hidden. It did not seem like many people were aware that it had been going on, especially for like 20 years. so Yeah. Anyways. Yeah.
00:39:32
Speaker
Well, let's get back to steps yes and timeline. Steps and phones. Between 10.06 to 10.16, Alex Phone tracked 594 steps. And in that time, 10.11, he had returned to the main house in his car. And three minutes later, he returned to the kennels in his car. So that 594 steps includes those movements. And I think he would justify that that like he has said... He had grabbed, at that point, he did grab a weapon, which he later told the police officer when they arrived, that he had the weapon with him, that he had grabbed it for his own safety or whatever protection. And so I think the justification for him driving back up to the house at that time would have been that he went to grab that. Yeah, that's what I think, too. No, I don'tm sure i can't quite picture exactly what else, but there was something else going on then
00:40:27
Speaker
Is that when he was showering or is that? Yeah. Hiding things in the house. Yeah. At 1017, he calls his brother, Randy, who did not answer. Again, this is one of those calls that there's not a record of on his phone.
00:40:39
Speaker
At 1018, he sent an iMessage to Randy saying, quote, emergency. 1018 1028, the phone tracks steps. And then in this time, there's a bunch of other calls and things.
00:40:54
Speaker
At 1019, he called Randy for one second. Again, no record of that call on his phone. At 1019, he calls his brother John for 40 seconds.
00:41:06
Speaker
No record of that call. At 1021, he called Rogan and there was no answer. Later, Rogan would testify that he had fallen asleep. I wonder how common it would have been for, well, I guess Alex to call Rogan at that hour. Maybe maybe it wouldn't have been common, but obviously.
00:41:24
Speaker
Given what happened. I just, I think, but I think about that a lot with how entrenched these families are. Like I couldn't imagine unless something was like life or death at that age, like early, like late teenage, early twenties, like my friend's parents calling me that just feels very, just for ed like,
00:41:45
Speaker
Oh, just in general. Yeah. yeah Yeah. They, they, it did they definitely, yeah, that does. it feels like it's, I mean, and I think that's just maybe that growing up in a small area, rural, everything just becomes so um entrenched with each other in our toys. Yeah. that just So that alone, i and I know that's, that's a cultural thing probably of, of like you said, but that strikes me every time is like,
00:42:09
Speaker
Even when like Rogan calls Buster, I'm like, my best friends at that age didn't have my sister's number. Right. Right. While she was away at college. Right. It's just, I don't know. There's just not a way we grew up.
00:42:22
Speaker
But we still don't even have, 911 has not arrived. Or whatever. Not 911. Authorities. No. Which I feel like Alec would have known it would have taken... I mean, again, yeah very rural. I drove out there.
00:42:35
Speaker
It's very rural. Yeah. So, I mean, I wouldn't expect them to arrive very quickly. Yeah. It ends up taking them just about 20 minutes to get there because he calls about 10.06. They'll get there at 10.25. That gives them a lot of time.
00:42:48
Speaker
And are these phone... Again, are these phone calls just trying to like cover for himself or are they... trying to get help or getting somebody on it or yeah are they just i don't know what i would do in them i cannot imagine what i would do in that moment i know i know so after rogan didn't answer the call alex called christy murdoch who's she i don't remember who christy is is she one of the spouses she must be randy or john's wife perhaps and He hasn't gotten a hold of Randy yet.
00:43:21
Speaker
Right. So he's gotten a hold of John, but I don't think he's gotten a hold of. Yeah. Randy. So maybe she's his wife. I don't know. Yeah. That call lasted 53 seconds at 1024. Alex texted, quote, call me to Rogan. And then a minute later, he tried to FaceTime Rogan, who did not answer. And then as he is trying to FaceTime, Colton County Sheriff arrived and then the sheriff called Sled to come to the scene. Can we just talk about Rogan for one more second? So was he, was- Yes, please. Rogan just close by? Was he just a close family, like so close to the family? Or was he trying to call him because he had some kind of sense that Paul had been on the phone or that something-
00:44:04
Speaker
Rogan could know something. That's my only thought is that he realized that Rogan was the person that Paul had been talking to right before. Yeah. That's all I can. And I, who knows what he, what do what you want to say to Rogan?
00:44:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Like, delete the call from Paul or something, or I don't know. and of That's always struck me as strange. Yeah, me too. Okay, so Calton County Sheriff arrives, let's and remember, like, okay, calton kept like this is where, you know, the sheriffs are little, this is a small town, little...
00:44:37
Speaker
don't want to say corrupt, but a lot of connections. lot of connections and probably not super equipped to handle something like this. Well, very good point. Very good point. So SLED would be, as SLED is the state agency. And i think obviously they're better equipped.
00:44:54
Speaker
and ah And also I think part of it is, especially in a like such a state with so many small little towns like this, it's kind of an oversight of some – they kind of like calling the FBI, which are like impartial, more impartial.
00:45:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's always a good idea if like whatever the department is doesn't want to be like their motives not to be questioned. And then to like we we talked about this in the Idaho book we're reading like good on them for realizing that this is right. Right.
00:45:25
Speaker
But it opened up, I mean, Alex took this um in a different direction. and now And with the boat crash, too, where he used it to question the legitimacy of SLED and corruption of on the point or on the part of s slide Right. Between and phone tracked steps. And then we're going to go through a bunch of calls again. At 1029, he called Randy.
00:45:56
Speaker
That call lasted 42 seconds. Again, no record of that call. At 1030, Alex tried to FaceTime Rogan again, and there was no answer. 1034 p.m., Nolan Tutton called Paul's phone, which causes Paul's phone to die.
00:46:13
Speaker
i think Nolan is just a friend. But by now, right, we have authorities there. So he's right. At 1035, Alex called John for 28 seconds. 1036, he called Randy for 56 seconds.
00:46:27
Speaker
At 1040, Alex searches, quote, Whaley's Edisto. Edisto. Edisto. Thank you. Yeah. Which is a local restaurant. Okay. So have no idea why. No.
00:46:40
Speaker
No idea. that Why that happened. And I don't think I've ever heard any kind of. Theory. thing Yeah. No. Yeah. Edisto is where it's the um the beach where they owned the beach house. Okay, yes. um Which is about an hour away at the shore.
00:46:54
Speaker
Okay. That's where Maggie had come from earlier in the day. At 1045, Alex called Brooklyn White, who was Buster's girlfriend, now wife, I believe. That call lasted 13 seconds. No record on Alex's phone.
00:47:11
Speaker
Interesting personal side note. Um, Brooklyn's family is from the area, the same town that, um, my sister, your aunt lives in and so they like have like acquaintance you know like mutual acquaintances well oh interesting well at 10 46 alex called tracy white who's brooklyn's mother for 14 seconds no record of that call 10 46 buster called maggie obviously there's no answer but at 10 47 alex texted buster tracy and brooklyn quote call me urgent Okay, so Buster still doesn't know yet. That's what it seems like. And actually, he had Alex hadn't even tried to call. so
00:47:54
Speaker
He called in the one time and they talked for like oh a little bit. But at that, presumably, he didn't know that. Right. I think that was like an alibi establishing call. And he was just because it was when he was driving over to his mother's house. Tracy White, Brooklyn's mother, you said that was, right?
00:48:12
Speaker
Weird that he tried to contact her before he even tried to contact, well, maybe Buster, but maybe he wish she was over there or something. He was over there. Yeah. Well, 1047, Buster does call Alex, and the call is 162 seconds.
00:48:27
Speaker
At 1055, Alex calls Brian White, who I think is Brooklyn's father. That lasted eight seconds. Brian thinks that the call was like a butt dial or a mistake, and he was actually trying to call Brooklyn. Okay. Okay.
00:48:42
Speaker
Makes sense. Yeah. so at 10 56, Buster called Alex again for 216 seconds. At 11 17 PM, Alex called Bart Proctor for 14 seconds. Was he another, was he a friend or an attorney? I think he's, I can't remember. I think he was just a family friend.
00:49:02
Speaker
Okay. So let's pause here for a little bit. And again, it's getting into the mindset. I can't imagine what I would be doing in the aftermath of a tragedy like this. I don't know if it's okay to say, but you have gone through a tragedy.
00:49:15
Speaker
Yeah. In the aftermath, do you think that, I mean, I remember getting the call from your mom. I don't know how long it was afterwards, but I mean, to be, did i I don't know. Did my mom call you? did, because i remember exactly where I was. And I remember like, she never exactly said what happened. And when I hung up the phone, I'm like, I think this is what she meant. Yeah. Okay. I don't remember a lot. No, because I was at a restaurant called Biscuit Bitch. Oh, yeah, I don't know. I very specifically, we were in Seattle and I very, i mean, it's just one of those things. But again, I have no idea now in retrospect how much after
00:49:52
Speaker
how how much later after everything had happened. But I mean, these are a lot of calls to be like flipping around. Yeah. I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember. Cause so we're talking about when we lost my father, i took over phone calls and I don't have much memory of it. yeah I remember my mom telling me specifically to call one person.
00:50:12
Speaker
And I know I called my brother-in-law because my sister didn't answer. Like I did that too. Like I called some of them. Yeah. Like this person didn't answer. So I tried this person. but it was i i But it wasn't immediately after.
00:50:26
Speaker
So there was a handful of calls I made immediately. but then there was a handful of calls that it was like, okay, it's like later, it's hours later in the day. Things are a little bit calmer. I need to start making these calls. So it was, I didn't call like a family friend directly.
00:50:42
Speaker
Within an hour. Within an hour. while yeah that Well, the bodies are still right there. i don't just But again, i mean, I can't can't judge. I mean, who knows? like that I mean, obviously they seem like that was kind of their agitated thing and he was on the phone with people all the time. And I mean, I don't have that many friends. so i I know I called the people who needed to be there urgently.
00:51:04
Speaker
or could relay information. That's all I remember like in that first little bit. yeah But it wasn't like, if I couldn't get a hold of someone, I wasn't trying like six other people in their circle to get a hold of them. Maybe your sister. But besides that, if it was like, okay, I can't get a hold of, you know, there's six of the sisters. If I couldn't get a hold of one, I'd be like, i I'm not going to call the rest of them.
00:51:33
Speaker
mother-in-law someone will call me back it just there's just a lot of calls going on yeah there's a lot of calls and i'm a person that my phone is always with me as well and it is a nervous but i'm nervously doom scrolling so i would be like just scrolling through like youtube shorts and people look back at your phone and they're like what was exactly they'll be like she was looking up what was the weird thing exactly and and somewhere in here he's doing an interview Yeah, well, I think that's a little bit later. at 1119, Randy texted Bart from Alex phone, and he tells him to text him back at that number.
00:52:15
Speaker
So now we officially are getting to the point that the word is spreading. Because at 11.28 p.m., Leclerc Lafitte, Lafitte, I always forget how to say it. i think it's Lafitte.
00:52:26
Speaker
Lafitte ah texted Alex their family's condolences. So the Lafitte family were very close. who I forget his name, but he was a banker that handled a bunch of the fraud.
00:52:41
Speaker
I did when I went out to Hampton whatever. I did go drive by the bank, too. It looked like bank. but Right. At 1146, Tracy White texted Alex her condolences. And at 1147 p.m. is when SLED arrived and began processing the scene through the night. Wow. I mean, but again, like condolences within we're talking within like under three hours from the actual.
00:53:05
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, what, maybe an hour and 40 minutes from the 911 call. That's. Yeah. But I mean, but it's a small town also. So who knows? You know, it is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get i get that. All right. So SLED arrives.
00:53:21
Speaker
I don't know how much processing they did with Calton County. I'm not sure what. how much they were doing at that point before SLED got there. Yeah. But that is where we're going wrap up. I do believe the interviews happened at this time with him in the police car. I didn't get too much into it because he's just agitated. You know, I don't know if you have anything specifically you want to talk about that or if we should wait till next time. ah Probably next time. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Our quick little episode here just turned into an hour. I know. We always, we always do this. So,
00:53:51
Speaker
Yeah. Good point to to to stop. right. yeah Perfect. Well, we will talk to you guys next week. We're going to continue a bit of timeline, but more spread out. We're not doing minutes anymore. No more steps? No more steps. Well, maybe. i don't know. I can't remember. I mean, I do think there is. that that That's how you can picture what's going on. Absolutely. so Steps are important.
00:54:09
Speaker
All right, guys. We will talk to you next week. All right. See you later. Bye.
00:54:24
Speaker
you