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Episode 248: Humble and Important Gifts with Bronwen Dickey
138 Plays4 years ago
"My mind is a very bad neighborhood and I should not go there alone," says Bronwen Dickey.
She is the author of Pit Bull: The Battle Over an American Icon, a Best American Sports Writing notable pick, and the journalist behind many pieces that have appeared in Esquire and Outside Magazine.
She's my best friend and I'm so happy to have her back for her fourth trip to the podcast.
In this episode we riff about:
- The arrow going out
- Humble and important gifts
- Journalism as an act of service
- Social media
- Index card systems
If you dig the show, pass it around the circle.
If you want to support the magazine, head over to patreon.com/cnfpod and if you want the best newsletter in the country as rated by me, head over to brendanomeara.com for show notes and the monthly newsletter.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Bronwyn's Role in the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
My mind is a very bad neighborhood and I should not go there alone.
00:00:10
Speaker
You hear that? That is literally my favorite person in the world, Bronwyn Dickey. I feel like Bronwyn is something like a fraternal twin of mine, separated at birth. Even our first names had like seven letters. They share like five of the same of those seven letters. Starts with B-R, ends with an N. Am I reading into this too much? Maybe.
00:00:34
Speaker
Yes, this is her fourth trip to the podcast. Oh, and I should mention this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. You get a real sense of the evolution of the show itself, writ large, by listening to each episode with Bronwyn.
00:00:55
Speaker
Everything from the tech to the actual voice and tone of the authority, at least of me on the mic, is something to behold in terms of the scope and, like I said, the evolution of this podcast and how it's come together over the years.
00:01:12
Speaker
Brilliant as ever she came on first for episode 21 then 45 then 137 and now 248 which means it's been two years since she and I spoke I Find that nauseating and sad really really sad
00:01:31
Speaker
Bronwyn is the author of Pitbull, Battle Over an American Icon.
Personal Connections and Podcast Support
00:01:36
Speaker
Her work has been prominently featured in Best American Sports Writing, as well as Popular Mechanics, Esquire, and myriad other places, Outside Magazine, I believe. I mean, lots of play. She's just a badass.
00:01:50
Speaker
She fits the mold of the show, man. Before we even knew each other, she was the guest judge for a narrative journalism contest for Maggie Messitt's Proximity Magazine. Proximity Magazine.org or ProximityMag.org. I can't blank it on it, but type it in, it'll come in.
00:02:10
Speaker
As luck would have it, my piece won that year. This was 2016 or so, if I'm not mistaken. Brown had no idea it was my piece. So just another example of our weird cosmic connection in this galaxy of ours.
00:02:26
Speaker
If you're listening to this on CNF Friday, being March 19th, the publication day of this particular episode, you have two days to get your summer submissions to me for issue two of the audio magazine. Deadline is March 21st, so you have like two days. If you're listening to this on Friday, if you're listening to this on Monday, SOL, man, give me your best shot. 2,000 words or less, email the podcast with summer in the subject line.
00:02:53
Speaker
Let's see it. Let's see some great work I've got. I'm very optimistic about how this next one is going to turn out. Learned a lot from the isolation episode which is free for all in the podcast feed. Prominently featured at BrendanOmero.com usually the second featured post so it's always there on the top. Sticky. Stick to the top if you will.
00:03:16
Speaker
And in order to listen to the next issue of the podcast, you're gonna have to sign up and become a patron on patreon.com slash CNF pod. There's a new $2 month tier that is the audio magazine only. No transcript, no other perks, but I mean, the magazines are a pretty damn good perk. It's a pretty good subscription if you ask me, but I'm biased.
00:03:38
Speaker
But you get the knowledge that you're supporting the production of the show and will help me pay writers more and more with each subsequent issue, such as The Hope. I want to make the show better and better, of course, and podcast listeners are getting more and more savvy than ever.
Listener Engagement and Writing Insights
00:03:56
Speaker
They're not gonna talk, they're not gonna put up with a lot of bullshit tech and shitty-ass audio, right?
00:04:05
Speaker
So the tech and the specs need to keep leveling up. And that takes quite a bit of dough, a lot of time. And if you care to be part of that, I'd be honored and thrilled to have your support. Go on, check it out, shop around, window shop. And if you want to take the leap, join the others who have.
00:04:22
Speaker
My editing and coaching shingle is always up. I forget to mention this But if you have a book or an essay you're looking to level up email me and we'll start a CNF and dialogue man If you're ready to level up shoot me an email, you know, I primarily of course my purview is nonfiction But if you're working on something that is in the fiction realm Hey It's all storytelling man. It's all writing I can help
00:04:47
Speaker
Well, also, I want to give a nice shout out to Arvin. He's working hard on his essay and read his kind review here that he left for the podcast. Well, at least I'm going to read it. You're not going to read it. I guess you could go and read it if you wanted, but I will read it for you. And he titled it Good Chats on Craft and Purpose.
00:05:06
Speaker
Thanks for this engaging and entertaining podcast. I've discovered new essayists to read as well as drawn inspiration and insight as I continue my own work. Boom. Thank you, Arvin. Badass. That is it. And if you leave a review of that nature, I'll coach up a piece of your writing of up to 2,000 words. That's about $100 value for a few minutes of your time.
00:05:32
Speaker
Post it on Apple Podcasts, send me a screenshot of the published review, and I'll reach out from there. Sound good? Good. So this episode, episode 248 with me and Bronwyn Dickey, much like our last has, it's more of a conversation than a straight up interview. I tend to dislike podcasts of that nature because I think it takes a certain degree of audacity of character and ego to think that the listener will just want to hang out and listen to two friends chat.
00:06:01
Speaker
Like they are so entertaining and their personalities will carry the day and aren't you lucky to just listen to those two people chat? I'm thinking of myriad bro podcasts. This is different.
00:06:14
Speaker
I think there's lots of value here and lots of great bits of advice and wisdom that Bronwyn shares that should give you more confidence as you go about your own work and that is always the core ethos of the show. To give you those things to make you better at what you do and also to make you feel a little less lonely and maybe, God willing, a little less shitty.
00:06:35
Speaker
All I can say is that when I was editing this pod, I was smiling the entire time, so that should say something. We talk about aiming the arrow out instead of in. It seems like a kind of an odd thing to say as a point of conversation, but trust me, it just means looking outward versus inward when it comes to a piece of work.
00:06:59
Speaker
Humble and important gifts journalism as an active service handling social media how our combined in our identities as writers I have changed over the last 10 years or so index card systems and Bronwyn staring down the barrel of turning 40 So why don't we just get right into
Creative Challenges and Personal Discoveries
00:07:20
Speaker
it now? I've taken up a lot of your time already
00:07:24
Speaker
So here's my conversation for episode 248 with the incomparable Bronwyn Dickey.
00:07:40
Speaker
I don't know, harder, as if it was, as if it wasn't hard enough to get out of our own heads. It's just like, now it's almost impossible to. And it's like, God damn it. Like, where's the escape hatch? Right, right. And the scale and the scope and the import of everything is so much larger than his ever, I mean, everything feels urgent. Everything feels of crushing importance. You know, the world is going through a global crisis.
00:08:06
Speaker
So it's, I mean, I think everyone, it's a crucible that everyone's going to emerge very different from. For sure. And you're someone who's always been able to, whether on assignment or recreationally, someone who kind of hops around the country and hops around the globe a bit. Yeah. So how have you and your husband been processing the fact that you haven't been able to get out as much? Yeah, that's been really hard.
00:08:35
Speaker
probably less for him than for me. He actually got a new job recently. So he no longer has to wear a suit to work and go into an office and deal with a bunch of urgent problems that are very stressful. He no longer has to do that. So he is definitely living his best life. He is loving everything.
00:08:57
Speaker
And for me, it's harder because I am used to traveling so much and I'm used to being out in the world among people who are very different from me. And that's where kind of the creative energy and the ideas for great stories come from. It's from mingling with people or having those just kind of spontaneous happenstance meetings, you know, just seeing someone at the
00:09:20
Speaker
at the coffee stand or overhearing a conversation about something. There's that element of serendipity that's so important to most journalists and most nonfiction writers.
00:09:32
Speaker
And there is no serendipity now. Every day is Groundhog Day. Every day, I don't know if you've seen Austin Kleon's posts about Groundhog Day and its lessons, but they're actually pretty good. But there is no serendipity. So it's not impossible to find stories, but it's so much harder for someone like me who kind of thrives on
00:10:00
Speaker
those just happenstance meetings. That's almost entirely where my ideas come from. And so sitting down to read the internet, it's not yielding the same kind of results. And that's been frustrating. That's been very, very frustrating in addition to not being able to just get out and have new experiences. But again, I'm trying to think of it philosophically. I don't know if you've read
00:10:29
Speaker
Catherine May's wintering. I haven't. I just started it and I'm really loving it. It feels like the writer Arthur Kessler had this, he wrote a lot about synchronicity and all this kind of metaphysical, philosophical stuff about coincidence. But he had this idea, this concept that he called the library angel. And it was what he called that moment where
00:10:54
Speaker
you somehow discover or happen upon the book, the very book that you need to be reading at that moment. And you kind of happen upon it at this time when it will have the most impact on your life. And I've been thinking so much about what this time of not working as much is going to mean for me. And then I happened upon that book and I think it's very, it feels like a gift from the Library Angel.
00:11:22
Speaker
And for someone like yourself, when you write a lot of your journalism, you're no stranger to being in the piece, but the pieces are rarely, if ever, about you. You're just kind of in there.
00:11:36
Speaker
But given that you can't have quite those immersive, repartorial experiences, have you given much thought to doing the more personal exploration of personal essays, even if there is that element of reportage to those things? You know, something that I haven't quite seen from you, even if maybe you've dabbled. It's just something I'm familiar with with regards to your writing. Yeah. Yeah. And that was stuff I did a bit more
00:12:05
Speaker
earlier in my career when I wasn't, when I didn't have, I was very scared about the journalism skills I did not yet have. So I did more writing in the first person years ago, but I have certainly been thinking about it and I've been doing a lot of it in my own notebooks, but I haven't been sitting down at the keyboard and composing anything that way. My head still feels a little
00:12:29
Speaker
to murky and they're so, I mean, where do you even start? It's a very, it's
Writing Projects and Self-Reflection
00:12:34
Speaker
a very bad name. My mind is a very bad neighborhood and I should not go there alone. You know, so, you know, I need to, I need to fortify myself, I think, before, before I go in there. But what have you, so have you, what about you? Let's, I know lots of interviewers do not like to have questions turned on themselves, but I always have the best conversations with you. So how are the tools of ignorance?
00:13:03
Speaker
Or is that one of those questions? Please don't ask about it. You know, it isn't because at this point it's it's in a good it's in the best position it's ever been and Which is saying something given that it's it's been you know trolled through the depths of Dante's Inferno it's uh, but it's uh, I after my last pass with My editor of it. It's like it's in probably its best shape and it's at a point where it can probably confidently be shopped around
00:13:26
Speaker
Well, I'm glad you asked.
00:13:33
Speaker
And so it's been, as I've said in the past sometimes, when I first started working with Glenn on it a couple years ago,
00:13:46
Speaker
I thought I was in the red zone. I was like, yeah, I just need a little bit of refinement. This thing's close to good. And it turns out I was pinned up against my own goal line when I submitted it. And it's been just a slog to get it into a good place, a good slog. I learned quite a bit in the process. And I think even impressed is the wrong word with them, but he had his doubts about my ability to
00:14:16
Speaker
closed the deal on this just based on some other writing he had seen from me. And so like when in his nose, he was just like, well, yeah, I just I didn't think you were going to be able to pull this off. But it looked like you after you worked through this for a while, it's like you got there.
00:14:32
Speaker
So, um, I didn't know how to digest that, but it was, uh, but yeah, so we got there. So we're, um, so bottom line, long story short, it's, it's in a place where it can confidently be shopped around, I think. So that's where we're at. So it's a, it's been a long journey. It's been an 11 year book. And so it needs to go because I have a lot of other things that I'd want to be working on. So, but yeah, but that's where, that's where it's at. And it's a, in the last round of edits, like I could, when I finished.
00:15:02
Speaker
combing through it and addressing a lot of the other things. It was, I left thinking like, this is okay. This is a nice little book. And I'm kind of proud of it. That's a great place to be. Yes, that is a great place to be. That's the best place to be. I don't know. I can't remember if we talked about this last time, but have you ever seen the documentary about Bill Withers? Still Bill. No.
00:15:28
Speaker
No, I don't think so. Okay. Well, you know, certain things like just you see these moments and things in it, they crystallize everything for you. And there's a moment in that documentary, you know, because Bill Withers walked away at the height of his fame, because he just wasn't into the way the demands made on him by the music industry and all, you know, kind of the music world in LA and all those things.
00:15:57
Speaker
And so he kind of stepped back and became like a producer who nurtured the careers of like young artists. Um, but one of the things he says in that documentary is, you know, it's fine to want to be great, but on your way to great, you're going to pass. All right. And you should stop and look around and hang out there for a while. You know, appreciate it because it's gone really fast.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great way of putting in, I've kind of over the run of this, this podcast too, it's made me want to, you know, sit with the badness, sit with the bad work for a while and not get so into the mud of comparing myself to others, which is kind of the crucible from which that this podcast stemmed was that virulent and toxic comparison. And the worst, the worst.
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, we're looking at, oh yeah, I remember, not that I merited any kind of attention, but I remember in 2011 when Grantland was starting and part of its thing was, we're going to nurture these young up and coming sports writers not a lot of people know about.
00:17:08
Speaker
And I was like, I'm a young up and coming sports writer that nobody knows about. And like, and no one was knocking on my door. And I just remember like, that was sort of like the initial tender of me just feeling really shitty about my own like place in the world and my own work and getting bitter and everything. Welcome, brother. Yeah. Welcome. You know, like we're all in the same. We are very much as I say all the time. We're all those on the same bus. You know, for me, it's not the
00:17:34
Speaker
It's not the thinking that people should be knocking on my door. It's even worse than that. It's just like, what is wrong with me that I can't work at the same level or pace that all my colleagues are working at?
Meditation, Motivation, and Writing as Service
00:17:48
Speaker
Why am I not able to find amazing stories in this pandemic from the confines of my home when I see people, my colleagues are doing it right and left. What is the matter with me?
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah. My very darkest and deepest depressions have been from that kind of thinking. That is very much why I'm trying to bliss out, zen out, meditate as much as I can on the big questions. It's helping me so far. Not saying there haven't been some very dark times in the past couple of months.
00:18:24
Speaker
I think if we all meditate more or chew on the question of what we think is at the end of that road, we'll all be pretty surprised at what we're really hoping for. Is it acceptance? Is it proof that we're worthy? What is it that we're chasing? I don't know. What do you think you're chasing?
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think well, I think early on my ego is really tied into, you know, the prestige of trying to appear in certain places and, and getting the recognition among probably among peers before among readers, like it kind of mattered to me to try to be and
00:19:02
Speaker
XYZ anthology or to win an award here because I needed some sort of validation in that way. And I guess over the course of this show, because this is why I started, it was to kind of work through all that bitterness and resentment. I came to a place where that fuel wasn't burning clean. So I needed to try to celebrate.
00:19:30
Speaker
Celebrate people's work more than try to be.
00:19:34
Speaker
I don't know, in competition with it. And trust me, it's still there, but it's definitely, it goes through a different filtration system and the Brita filter of my resentment stays in the filter more and doesn't bleed out into the tap water. So that's, so yeah, that's where, so that's,
00:20:01
Speaker
That gets to something I want to ask you because I think my identity has changed quite a bit over the last 10 years of what it means to do this kind of work. Like I said, it used to be kind of tethered to some of these higher profile places, and I've just kind of moved on from that. But for you, as a writer and a journalist and a teacher, how has your identity changed maybe in the last five to 10 years or so?
00:20:31
Speaker
Oh my goodness. I think the biggest change, I was just talking about this with someone the other day has been the more I think about writing as an act of service, the better my relationship to it is and the better my work is. I mean, if I'm, and I, I can't remember again, now that we've, this is our third conversation. I hope I'm not repeating myself. I hope it's our fifth. Is it our fifth? No. Yeah.
00:21:01
Speaker
It is actually our fourth, so fact check. Anyway, back to Bronwyn. Oh my God, I don't even want to know what I felt like on some of those. It's at the minimum fourth, but I think it's the fourth. Oh my God. See? I mean, again, oh my Lord. So I probably do sound like a ... I mean, you have heard everything I've had to say. But the biggest change very much, and it's still true, and it's even more true now, is that
00:21:28
Speaker
kind of like you're talking about. I mean, when people start writing, it seems like a performance art that is very accessible because it doesn't require you, you know, it's not like ballet where it requires you to have a certain type of body or it's not like, you know, I don't know, playing a sport at a high level where you have to have a certain, you know, you have to be seven feet tall, play basketball, well, whatever. Or, you know, an elite singer and have to have the right kind of vocal
00:21:57
Speaker
It's something, you know, writing words on a page is something everyone has the tools to do. And so it seems, I think, very accessible. And for the people whose books were changed by reading, you and I love that Henry Rollins, music is made by the people, music saved. And I very much believe that books are written by the people, books saved for the people for whom that was true. It seems like this way to, to kind of do something creative
00:22:25
Speaker
And if you work hard enough at it, you'll get some kind of recognition or find your audience or whatever it is you're looking for. And that's, I think the way most young writers start out. That's certainly the way I started out. And as I've gotten older and as I've done it more and more, I really do think of it more instead of the arrow going towards me, like about what kinds of feedback I'm getting on what I write.
00:22:52
Speaker
I really think about the arrow going out. What is the act of, what is, how can I make this an act of service to listen to someone who trusts me with their story and render it in a way that is three dimensional and real and might help somebody else down the road and put that out into the world as this very humble and imperfect gift to someone else that for all these strangers whom I may never, ever, ever meet,
00:23:20
Speaker
I'm saying, hi, you know, you don't know me, but I went out in the world and I discovered this amazing thing, or I met this incredible person. And I really like to share that with you if you have a minute. And to do it as this kind of act of service makes me feel so much better about it. Because if you think about all the gifts anyone's ever given you in your life, I mean, maybe there are some that you don't use, or maybe there are some you thought were a little cheesy or whatever, but you've never been like, fuck off.
00:23:49
Speaker
Like, I don't want your gifts. Go home. You know, I mean, it's just like, okay, that is what it is, right? And so I think if we think about that with the stories we write, they're never going to be perfect. They're never going to match up on the page with what we have in our heads. They're never going, you know, they're always going to be just a fraction of what we hoped they would be. Probably at least that is the, that's the way it is for me.
00:24:13
Speaker
But it's a humble and imperfect gift I'm trying to give someone else. I'm doing my best. I'm doing it from a place that is pure and is not about my ego. And that makes it much easier to do. The work is better and it makes me feel so much better about it.
Social Media's Impact on Creativity
00:24:31
Speaker
And also all the adjacent things to that that I can
00:24:36
Speaker
I can do as acts of service for other people. Teaching has been amazing to be able to listen to the concerns and fears and anxieties of my students and let them know I've been in exactly that place. You know, they will survive this. They have the ability to do this. This is just
00:24:54
Speaker
craft a skill that you can learn. You just practice and you keep going and you fail or you do these imperfect things and then you get better through rote repetition or dedication or stubbornness or whatever. Doing that has been really eye-opening and it's kind of opened up my horizons a lot, I think.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's so good to kind of be in the mud and be teaching from the mud because the people on the other side- Wait, Brendan, are you saying I'm in the mud?
00:25:31
Speaker
Yes, I was born in the mud. I was a mud creature. I am just, you know, like Bane and the Dark Knight Rises. He's like, I was born in darkness. Right. Well, yes. Or the swamp thing. I mean, yeah. Your cultural reference. But yes, exactly.
00:25:50
Speaker
Yeah. Because when you go into it and you don't know the other side, all you're seeing is the shiny veneer that you might see on social media or if someone is, if some writer out there be she Pamela Koloff or whoever else.
00:26:07
Speaker
She is she is amazing and when she has a new story out I mean she's like winning Twitter she's winning the internet but thankfully for her she does put the other side out how she's like has anxiety about cold calling and this you know this investigative reporter that we just revere
00:26:24
Speaker
She's got issues, performance issues, and anxiety issues when it comes to making phone calls. I share that. Louisa Thomas, a New Yorker writer, she's the same. She hates the phone. To hear that from these people we revere, it's so important.
00:26:44
Speaker
be from the mud or the swamp or the darkness as Bane would say. You can show and be like, listen, when you feel like shit, you're normal. It's okay. Don't believe everything you see on social media. Actually, it's far more normal to feel like shit all the time about this and just do the work and things will sort themselves out. Absolutely. And I do believe that social media contributes to people feeling
00:27:09
Speaker
like shit about things. I mean, not only not believe it, but like don't spend any time there. That's another bad neighborhood that your mind just does not need to go to alone. Because again, you are seeing it from from your vantage point, you are seeing a nonstop, efficient, like machine that is producing perfect widgets or whatever constantly. And that's
00:27:35
Speaker
overwhelming when that is not your experience. It's not their experience either. It's just how we view other people, just basically the algorithmic process and what it's serving up to us. So yeah, the more I stay off it, the happier and healthier and more at peace with things I am. I haven't been on Facebook.
00:28:00
Speaker
I will occasionally go on there, but it's just opposed to link to something I wrote. And I don't give a shit who comments on it and I don't even check. I mean, I literally, it's like a thief in the night. I just go and I like post a link and I shut it down and it's not on my phone. And I don't, I mean, I, every, when I do log in, it's sad. I have like a backlog of messages for like six months, but I just don't check. I just don't care. Yeah. And it's great.
00:28:28
Speaker
My best days, Bronwyn, are the days that I say, not even to check to see if there's a message or check to try to track down someone's contact info. The best days are when I don't touch Twitter or Facebook or Instagram or anything. At the end of the day, I actually feel
00:28:48
Speaker
I feel more energized at the end of the day and throughout the course of the day, I feel less shitty if I stay away from that all. I know that there's a utility to it. There are certain people I am in contact with as a soul.
00:29:03
Speaker
Outcome of social media and I'm like and it's a lot of books that I would never have heard about without social medium Guess for the podcast and other people would never have found the podcast were not for Twitter or whatever So I know there's some utility but my best my best days are always the days where I just abstain from it out of sheer willpower and Come come the end of the day. I'm just like oh, oh, that's why I feel good. I didn't go I didn't go into that I didn't I didn't go into that toxic waste dump
00:29:32
Speaker
Absolutely. And even for the people who have to use it for, you know, so for things like podcasts, you know, you're, you're going to have to use it to a certain extent, but there's such a difference between checking it at an appointed time and surfing it or scrolling it and like bathing in it.
00:29:52
Speaker
The bathing in it is not good for anyone I used to think well I have to keep up with what Everyone's doing and I have to keep up with the world and I have like I haven't gotten a single idea From social media like it has not done anything for my I thought like maybe I was gonna find like some like weird subcultures and I'm and some people do that but again that just has not happened for me and instead I've spent
00:30:16
Speaker
hours of my life that I can't get back feeling bad about myself. And so, you know, you can only do that for so long before you realize like, this is not good. This is not good for me.
00:30:29
Speaker
Yeah, if you approach it with real intentionality, that's the only way I found that it doesn't pull you into its vortex. Because Seth Godin is someone who I just so deeply admire as a thought leader in everything.
00:30:47
Speaker
I know that I have like a very short list of people that if I go to social media, I kind of just I'm going to the Seth Godin channel, if you will, like if I if I'm going to turn the TV on and there's one channel I want to watch and I'm not going to write surf. I'm going to go check out. Does he have anything new to say? Did he put up a new video conversation with whoever and he didn't. OK, see, I'm out. Right. Exactly. That's kind of it. Like I'm still trying to develop my own playbook about
00:31:17
Speaker
how to do it and using it for promotion of the podcast and to engage with people who have thought kindly enough to engage, which is very, very rare anyway. So it's just try to do it on your own terms is basically what I'm trying to get at. Yes, absolutely. And I also find that the less I post, the more I end up
00:31:44
Speaker
writing thoughts in my notebook and actually exploring them in more depth, which is incredible. It's like, so basically not posting is like miracle growth for my writing brain, which was a wonderful discovery.
00:31:59
Speaker
Because, you know, that we're just kind of wasting the thought energy where we have something and then we post it and then it's like a trial balloon and if it doesn't get like likes or shares or whatever, then we think it's like a dumb thought. Well, maybe it's because it was in 200 and whatever characters and you haven't been sitting with it and
00:32:17
Speaker
thinking about it and working with it and like modeling the clay right yeah so in a weird kind of i guess you would have to characterize it as a shame exercise i've been going through i haven't done it in a while i have to get back to it because i think there's a really good essay in it i'm going through my old tweets and deleting all my old tweets
00:32:38
Speaker
And, but as I'm deleting them, I'm like copying them and just pasting them in a document because I just want to say like, I can't believe there was at this moment at this time, I thought this was funny. And it wasn't, it has like, it clearly has no metric that it even hit anybody. And yet I thought it was like the most funny thing at the time. And I'm just like, this is just so sad.
Analog Systems and Productivity Routines
00:33:00
Speaker
And I'm sort of just putting these things together as kind of to like physically scrub my entire Twitter feed because the shelf life of these things is quite literally a few seconds. And so I'm just going through and be like, wow, this is kind of going back through like a personal history and tweets of what I thought was funny or what I thought was important at a given moment. And just trying to put those together as sort of a, I don't know, an ethnography of my own Twitter feed from years ago.
00:33:30
Speaker
Oh, that would be a great essay. Yeah, because, you know, it's a, it's a different generation and different technology, but it's like reading, you know, your angsty teenage diary or something. It's a weird, it's a kind of journal. We're dressing in black and wearing eyeliner and doing all these kind of like, woe is me.
00:33:49
Speaker
my soul is very hurt kind of things. Yes, yes, for sure. So what is your journaling and your notebook practice? I've got mine, I do every day, I do a bit in the morning and I do a bit at night these days. How are you approaching it these days? Right, so I still do the thing at morning pages. I was wondering if you...
00:34:16
Speaker
Yes. Like, is she gonna say it? I know. Uh, yeah, I said it. And what's funny is I was having a conversation with, um, I forgot that that was even how I, I referred to it when we talked, but, um, I was having a conversation with my friend Kim Cross. Oh my God. I've been talking to Kim a lot lately. Oh, she's wonderful. She's so wonderful. Such a great writer, such a great person, just like an extraordinary human being in every way. And she's like,
00:34:46
Speaker
Is it, is it that cheesy that you won't say it? And I was like, I don't know. I feel cheesy about it. It feels like very touchy feely new agey or something, but dude, whatever, it works. Um, and it's good. So I've been doing kind of a combination of that and just, uh, you know, combination, just kind of scatter shot, like random memories, random scraps of stuff, quotes. I'm very interested in, I've just discovered.
00:35:15
Speaker
I'm probably, I'm very late to this party, but I've just discovered the whole Zettelkasten thing. Never heard of it. Okay. So do you know about Ryan Holiday's index card system? Yes, I do. Okay. It's that basically. So there is a book called How to Take Smart Notes. And I can't remember who the author is. It's called How to Take Smart Notes. And it has this cult following, because it's based on a mid-century
00:35:44
Speaker
German or Austrian sociologist, and he developed this thing called the Zettelkasten, which was basically the card box or the slip box. And so he created the second brain of all his knowledge using this index card system and had a certain way of labeling it. And instead of alphabetical or chronological, it's thematic. So by, it's all very kind of
00:36:12
Speaker
complex in terms of how you label things but you are able to put like ideas together so quotes from various different places that you read at different times if they're if they're thematically linked then ideas will like grow out of them more organically and i'm very intrigued by this as someone who loves analog everything yeah um i am very very very interested in doing this and so
00:36:39
Speaker
Ryan Holiday does a version of that, though I think his are grouped by book or something. I'm not sure how he groups his, or maybe it's on theme alphabetically or something like that. And he learned that from, I think, Robert Greene. But the hardcore index card fanatics intrigue me very much. I know Lawrence Wright from The New Yorker has a very extensive index card system.
00:37:07
Speaker
There's something so much, because I have a huge, you know, I've long been a fan of Evernote. I use that for all my book research and it's amazing as that kind of digital filing cabinet for things like articles. But in terms of ideas that you have or quotes that you find meaningful, anything that has more gravity than just a piece of information, having an analog way of having cards that you can switch around, like right in front of you, I think is,
00:37:38
Speaker
again, it's one of those miracle grow for the brain things. So I'm trying to get into that more. I'm trying to build my own index card system. That's what I'm going to be using this next piece of the pandemic for. And there's part of the system is that basically you would go through and read a book and do your normal highlighting and note taking in the margins or whatever. But instead of directly translating
00:38:05
Speaker
like transferring those notes onto cards you wait a week or two and then you go back through the notes and you because now all the stuff has has had a chance to kind of marinate and you can figure out which of those notes you actually want to come back to later and which are just like random scribblings and so you're already like filtering out the direct
00:38:30
Speaker
And then you're putting the things that are most important, like the waiting two weeks, I think is a very key thing. Uh, because no one wants like 5 million trillion note cards of random dates or figures that you're never going to need. So that whole kind of like, you know, the different, the different filters, the different filtering mechanisms and making your brain work on an idea a little bit longer, I think is.
00:38:57
Speaker
is awesome. So that's kind of my obsession now. But yes, I still do morning pages in the morning. I clean the cobwebs out of my brain. And then throughout the day, it's just kind of, it's random stuff. At night, sometimes it depends on what kind of day I've had, I will try to make lists of things I did so that I remember like, I didn't feel useful today.
00:39:20
Speaker
But I did do some stuff. Yeah. That's where I found bullet journaling is I've sort of evangelical about bullet journaling. And that's why I like this inventory of what's happened over the course of the day or what didn't happen. I've just written things down and there are these open tasks and there is a redundancy and a friction in the system of having to.
00:39:42
Speaker
go page by page and see what's still open and going through that. Even though it's very repetitive, it's good for me because my brain is so scattered that even building in those redundancies really helps me remember things and to do things, even if I have to check it 10 different times.
00:40:03
Speaker
It just really, you know, I find that it helps and it's an analog system that in and of itself kind of, you know, you can build those collections of quotes or books to read books that you have read. You know, this other micro podcast, I do this stupid little casualty of words. It's a writing podcast for people in a hurry. It's like every episode is just me on mic less than three minutes. And I just have an idea. Yeah, it's just a stupid little thing. And it's fun. It's just kind of a
00:40:32
Speaker
We don't get to do that around here. Don't call it stupid. I'm not going to let you do that. This is a stupid free place. Yeah. Well, that's nice. It's always good to hear that coming from you, of course. But yeah, but I have like a rolling thing of ideas there. I have all my story ideas, all these fiction ideas, and it's just a great analog way to curate it and always to be referring to it. And that, like I said, that friction really helps me
00:40:58
Speaker
is more sticky. And so that the idea of you with these cards and looking through them and giving them two weeks to gestate, if you will, are you going to keep it or not? It's just that it's way in a digital age. I think it's all the more important to have these analog tools at our disposal.
00:41:16
Speaker
Yeah. And as I was trying to explain this to another friend, cause I think another friend said like, why don't you just use Evernote or why would, what would, Oh, this
Evolving Writing Goals and Self-Esteem
00:41:25
Speaker
is what he said. He said, why would you have a system like a database that you couldn't search and not being able to search it is the entire point. Because again, it adds, it adds enough friction that you have to go back through it. And by going back through it for looking for the quote you want or whatever, it's not just.
00:41:44
Speaker
wasting your time, it's you have to keep familiarizing yourself with the concepts. Like while your fingers are looking for that quote and going through those cards, you're having to go through all the other cards and refresh them in your mind.
00:42:00
Speaker
and keep this stuff kind of circulating instead of just writing it down once and then forgetting it and then maybe you'll come back to it if you ever need to directly search for it and then it comes right up, right? So you have to have this like tactile relationship with the stuff that I think is very good for someone like me. Taking all the friction out like does not work. Like again, the mind needs work to do.
00:42:27
Speaker
or my mind needs work to do. That's where the ideas come from.
00:42:33
Speaker
Right. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. And, and you know, it's really, really funny to me, this, when we were talking a few moments ago about this, this idea that it not being a sort of divorcing yourself from the competition and doing, doing the kind of work that seems, that's more service, service driven, you know, the fact that you're just doing this thing for out of yourself, but not overly celebrating it, or even knowing
00:43:03
Speaker
or doing it for any sort of personal gain. And the best was, this was probably almost two years ago now where I messaged you somewhere about congratulating you about being a notable selection for Best American Sports Writing. And you're like, what?
00:43:23
Speaker
Yeah, it was this piece on slack lining in Syria and everything and talk about like there's I think it really speaks to the service driven piece that goes right to the ethos of what you were talking about. And the fact that you didn't even know had been, you know, selected as a notable selection, which is, which is amazing. It just kind of goes to, you know, where, where your head is. Yeah, I just, I mean, again, I have like,
00:43:53
Speaker
I have the lowest self-esteem of any writer ever, you know, who walked the face of the earth. I think I could go toe to toe with you on that one. I don't know. I think the character is different, though. It would never occur to me that someone would think anything I do is worthy of mentioning or recommending. So it's not so much like, I wish I could be recognized more. It just doesn't occur to me that I would be.
00:44:20
Speaker
And, and yet I want to get to a place where, you know, I feel good about what I do and it's a constant challenge. And the only thing that gets me out of it, because nothing I do is ever good enough for me. The only thing that gets me out of it is how can I make this some kind of act of service for somebody else? Not that even the piece is itself about something noble or whatever, but how can I kind of, it's like some weird parable about like,
00:44:49
Speaker
You know, the child's gift or something. Like when a child comes up to you and like, you know, it's like, Hey, I drew this picture of you. Look at it. And it's a stick figure. You're not like, well, that's not, you know, it's not Da Vinci, is it? Yeah. I don't have a circle for a face. Like fuck off child. I mean, of course you don't. Right. And so like, we're so much harder on ourselves.
00:45:15
Speaker
than we would ever be on other people. And if you're doing it from a good place, and that's also why the kind of work I do, like I do stuff about community, I do stuff about, you know, people facing certain struggles, I do, you know, kind of very intimate work because like, I'm not a muckraker, I'm not out to, I don't know that I have the sheer just,
00:45:42
Speaker
I mean, what do you even call it? Um, it's beyond courage. Just the, the kind of, ah, it's not audacity. It's just the sheer, whatever the word is, we'll put blank word here to be, to do investigative work and to have not just doors get shut on you as you know, in the course of work as every journalist does, but to have like people fighting you.
00:46:08
Speaker
to keep you from getting information, like that combativeness.
00:46:15
Speaker
I like that muscle too. That's why I'm like a features guy and not even just a features guy, but more of like a fly on the wall kind of guy, like an observer. I almost equate what I feel most comfortable with is being more like an anthropologist where I'm just like, I'm going to stand over here. You guys do your thing, okay? And I'm going to take notes. And then once you do something cool, maybe in like three weeks, I'm going to ask you about it.
00:46:41
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah. And that's kind of how I feel more comfortable in that space. A very John McPheezy-ian way of going about the work where you just kind of, I'm just going to paddle. Right. Give me a canoe paddle. I'll paddle along and take some notes, but you just do your thing. Right. Yeah. Right. And you'll find these, like, these very kind of unexpected pockets of whatever experience that is that are amazing. Right. And then you have. But and that doesn't mean that that, you know,
00:47:11
Speaker
I guess what I was trying to say is like all of these things can be acts of her. It's like Pam Kollof is like a Joan of Arc. And I hope she hears me say that because she's freaking like Joan of Arc, like a vinging angel. Amazing. Feels otherworldly to someone like me. She is just the greatest of the greatest of the great. And yet, as you said, you know, sometimes she gets really nervous on the phone and stuff. But if you want to talk about acts of service,
00:47:37
Speaker
I mean, getting people out of jail, getting people out of prison, exposing these huge injustices in our system, that is absolutely like, oh my God, she is a goddess in every possible way. And so my acts of service are very different than her acts of service, but there are ways you can think about it any way you want. I mean, that is what is so great about this field and this
00:48:05
Speaker
vocation and this way of life is that it's just infinitely malleable and infinitely adaptive. What were your early goals as a writer and how have those changed? I think I know how they've changed in this more service mindset that we've been talking about, but was that always the case or was there a different goal early on for you?
00:48:32
Speaker
early on, I think I wanted that thrill of publication. But my my earliest goal was I just wanted to get published in one magazine. You know, like I just wanted to have one essay published in one place that I could like physically hold in the magazine that I could physically hold in my hand and like say that's my violin. And that I mean, that was it. I never thought when I even when I was in grad school,
00:48:58
Speaker
a lot of my classmates were already working on books. And I thought, Oh my God, you know, would I, where, where would an idea even come from? Like, could I possibly sustain any kind of level of skill for 300 pages? Like, I just don't know if I would ever be able to do that again. So I've always, I mean, my, the biggest challenge is not only comparing myself to other people, but like constantly, constantly underestimating what
00:49:28
Speaker
what I am able to do. And as I, as I stare down the barrel of 40, I've thought a lot about what I do not want to spend the next 40 years of my life doing. And one of them is like constantly underestimating myself or constantly like cutting down my own work or constantly feeling that like nothing is good enough. Because, you know,
00:49:55
Speaker
Ain't none of us perfect. Nobody out there is perfect. We're all just plowing our own acre. And that is all you can do. That's just all there is. And you can either make yourself miserable or you can find the joy in it. Well, where does so much of yourself now come from? Oh, God, I really don't know. I'd like to say, well, my dad was a writer and my brother
00:50:21
Speaker
was a writer and they already had such outsized careers by the time I was even sentient, that it felt like it felt like nothing I did would ever matter as much as anything they did. So why do it? But I really enjoyed it. And it was a way of helping me process a lot of things
00:50:46
Speaker
you know, just kind of the way the world worked. And I was very interested in other people. And again, as I said, I was an obsessive reader. So it was something I enjoyed, but I never expected to do professionally because I just, the bar was so high for what I thought that life would look like that I didn't, I didn't think I would enjoy it or that it would be possible for me.
00:51:16
Speaker
But I don't know where the nothing is good enough comes from. I wish, I really wish I did because I feel it's probably holding me back more than anything else in my life.
Creativity, Play, and Supportive Environments
00:51:30
Speaker
It's toxic.
00:51:32
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And I think it's it comes down to really the story we tell ourselves. And there's a there's like the papoose of our of that story of, you know, being a down and out loser like that. That's a talk. That's a self talk that I've had since I was in high school. And it got me if you got me a lot of laughs like being that self deprecating growing up. And it was almost like a weirdly sort of
00:52:00
Speaker
I was too self-aware and weirdly ahead of my time in a lot of ways. Like I was really funny to a lot of my friends because I knew how to cut myself down. And eventually that seed took root. It became more than a joke and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy where, oh yeah, like I don't deserve this. And yeah, you are kind of a loser, even though by objective outside metrics, like, oh no, you're kind of okay. But there was a rock.
00:52:28
Speaker
inside. And I think I kind of know where it comes from. But it's, it's one of those things where it's just, yeah, we can be our own worst enemy. And if we were, we're our own worst boss, if we had a boss who talked to us the way we talked to ourselves, there's no way we would stay at that job. Oh my god, right? We would never put up with it. Yeah. And we would never put up with it. And that's why, you know, again, as I try to just do things for the joy of doing them, I, the next 40
00:52:57
Speaker
I just really want to release all kind of attachment to outcome. I just really, it's so, and that's why I'm starting many, I'm starting months ahead of, months ahead of that date, because it takes a lot of work to unwind that stuff. And I think as, just as people, as a, as a breed, writers and journalists are
00:53:25
Speaker
Especially journalists because a lot of times they are directly competing with each other. They are competing for the same stories They are competing for the same place in a publication and those publications and their budgets are getting much much much smaller So there isn't there is an actual competition to it That is that is hard But the the more again like I can't remember. I truly can't remember the last time I
00:53:54
Speaker
I wrote something besides writing in my notebook, right? That I wrote a piece that I did not expect anyone to see. Because I've been writing on deadline for so many years of my life now, or writing on assignment for so many years of my life. I don't do the finger painting thing as much as I did when I started. And I think we all lose something when we forget that sense of play and like sheer enjoyment of it.
00:54:24
Speaker
Yeah, you just took the words out of my mouth. Reminding yourself that it's something you get to do and that element of play is really so incredibly important because not only do you need it for yourself to get you through the ugly middles of the work and just the grind of it all itself, but if you're not having fun, then how in the world are you going to expect the reader to have any fun too? Amen to that.
00:54:53
Speaker
Amen to the yes, which is why even in my classes, I always tell my students, you know, I have to evaluate you at the end. Like I do have to give you a grade. I wish I did not, but I am not like, I am not going to let you fall off a cliff. I promise you if you show up and like give me your best energy, I promise you you're going to be okay. And so far I have not had to go back on that promise with anyone because I mean, they're, they're really good kids. They're really smart. They work really hard.
00:55:23
Speaker
Um, and I want them to feel a certain amount of safety so that they can be creative and they can try new things. And everything doesn't feel like they're on a high wire, like 10 miles above the ground. Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, uh, in thinking that you're about to, and this year turned 40, I turned 40 in July. How's it, how did it go?
00:55:49
Speaker
You know, good. Went to a few breweries, felt great. So what are you not going to do for the next 40? I'm telling you, Bronwyn, you and I, it's like we're kindred spirits. I think we have a lot of the same hang ups and the same kind of self talk, good or bad, mainly bad. And it's very, very similar. It's that I just want to just
00:56:16
Speaker
follow my taste, do the work that excites me, and know that everyone else is starting on different bases. Everyone else feels pretty crappy themselves. But all in all, it's just kind of like be more in service of the community at large. Tell the stories we want to tell and have a little bit of fun with it. The big difference is I thought by 40, I'd have some things kind of figured out.
00:56:48
Speaker
I feel every bit as I did at like 20, but I only have maybe 40 more years to go instead of 60. And it's just like, oh shit, now I'm feeling the crunch of time on top of my crippling insecurity. So it's, I don't know what to make of it. But I guess, I guess there's an urgency that's coming that is just like, well, you
00:57:11
Speaker
You better get going, man. It could be taken away from you at a heartbeat, and there's not much time left. It's biologically speaking, you're halfway through. You're at midfield, man. Yeah. And whatever's going to happen is going to happen, but if you're not enjoying it, then you will have slogged through that whole way, and you hadn't even had any fun.
Life Reflections and Mentorship
00:57:38
Speaker
And that's what I don't want to happen.
00:57:41
Speaker
it to be this relentless pursuit of like the next story has to be a perfect story.
00:57:48
Speaker
and rob the joy and the fun and the discovery of it out. That is what I absolutely refuse to do. It's affected lots of things in my life. Just this mindset of saying the next 40, I'm not going to be doing X, Y, or Z. Even things like my workouts. I used to feel like it wasn't worth working out if I didn't feel like I was going to die at the end of a workout.
00:58:13
Speaker
very much the beast mode intensity of it. And now it's almost, I just rebel against all that. Anything that is not enjoyable, life's too short. Life is too short to beat yourself up physically or emotionally or any other way. It just is.
00:58:39
Speaker
run a mile and after a mile, I feel like, you know what, like I'm good right now. Like that was refreshing. That was a nice little, you know, pick me up. I don't, I don't need to run five more than like, that's what I do. It's not like this relentless, just like taskmaster, like you have to drain yourself. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, it's only been a few weeks, but I'm working on it. And, you know, I just, again,
00:59:09
Speaker
once Appreciating the people you love and appreciating the things that you're able to do every day and finding the joy and whatever it is Like it's such a cliche. It sounds very woowoo, but oh my god If this time hasn't hasn't made that clear for me, you know, I don't know I don't know what would because I mean even like you think about the people Who have meant the most to you and who have had the biggest impact on your life not a single
00:59:38
Speaker
For me, at least, not a single one of my mentors or the people who nurtured me and supported me and truly, you know, made me into the person I am. Not a single one of them is a person that I loved because of what they did for a living, you know, or like where they were in their career. It was always personal generosity and like the time they spent with me. I mean, a lot of them did interesting things for their job, but like that wasn't what
01:00:08
Speaker
mattered to me. And so if we can find ways to be that for other people, if we can nurture other writers, if we can be better friends, if we can be better to our family members, if we can help make someone else's time on this road a little easier, if we can pick up a little of the burden that they're carrying, then that's worth the price of admission. That's all any of us can do on this planet.
01:00:37
Speaker
I find that I have to sometimes, out of my own feelings of inadequacy, I have to look at people I admire and be like, okay, I see what they're doing. I see the impression that they're giving off that's making me feel good. So if they can do it, okay, maybe I can. But I have to like put on that hat.
01:00:56
Speaker
And if I put on their hat, I feel like I can be like them. And so for you, are there any people out there that what you're looking at, you're like, okay, if I put on their hat, like, that gives me the juice to, you know, to do exactly what you're saying to maybe pave the road a little smoother for someone coming behind you? Yeah, I mean, for me, it was always
01:01:21
Speaker
You know, the mentors that I had in school, I had a wonderful kind of crusty old like hard edged history professor who was actually a beat reporter during the Civil Rights Movement. He was from, he was like, he was in the army in Texas and then he became a civil rights reporter and he was just like, he had this very gravelly voice and he seemed very, very refer on the edges, but he was incredible.
01:01:50
Speaker
incredibly kind, incredibly insightful, incredibly warm. And I think about him, Larry Goodwin, Dr. Goodwin, he wrote a very good book called The Populist Movement about why this social movement of farmers that was so progressive and the greenback party and all that stuff, how it kind of degenerated into the populism that we see now.
01:02:14
Speaker
But he was amazing, or Reynolds Price. He was another mentor I had in college, just incredibly warm, incredibly magnanimous, incredibly giving with his time. And he was just this bright light for everybody who knew him. In grad school, Patricia O'Toole, I think about Patti O'Toole all the time and what she meant to me, taking my writing seriously, listening to me.
01:02:44
Speaker
rewarding the fact that I worked so hard on it and not you know I was so scared and I was so critical of myself and she saw that I worked really hard and she took a you know an interest in me and my work and not just in my work but in me as a person and so I always think about those people who made the difference for me and who made me want to do this work
01:03:05
Speaker
And I want to be that for whoever I can be. If I can't be a good shoulder for myself to lean on, I'm a damn fine shoulder for someone else to lean on. Because again, when you walk through the fire, you give some pretty good pep talks. At least I hope I do.
01:03:26
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And talking to you, I always feel so, like I said, I feel like we're kind of kindred spirits in a lot of ways. So talking to you just feels so energizing for me. Oh, good. It does. That makes me feel happy. See, if I've helped you a little bit today, worth the price of admission. Fantastic. That makes me feel great. Good. Well, likewise, I hope I'm able to reciprocate a certain kind of energy for you. Absolutely. Without a doubt, so smart, so engaged.
01:03:55
Speaker
You always have such good ideas. Even back when I was on the Gram, I loved seeing your blacked out poetry. Amazing. You turned me on to Death Wins a Goldfish. Incredible. You're full of great ideas and recommendations. Yes, every conversation is amazing. Even if I thought we had three and we had five.
01:04:20
Speaker
Even though two of them were forgettable. It's just because my mind is basically cobwebs and tumblewebs at this point. Who knows, maybe like three P's rattling around in there. Who knows what's up? Some ball bearing. Exactly. I love that we can just illiterately say Bronwyn and Brandon are bozos on the same bus. I love it. Oh, we are. Raise that freak flag and fly it high.
01:04:50
Speaker
It's like the, it's like the Jolly Roger. Man, great talk, great chat, right? Hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. She gets the CNF pod championship belt, you know what I mean?
Closing Thoughts and Finding Zen
01:05:11
Speaker
Be sure to follow her on Twitter, at BronwynDickey, but like me, she tries to stay away from social media because, social media.
01:05:19
Speaker
Check out her incredible work and buy your book, Pitbull. Came out in 2016, but that don't matter. Still great. Like I said in the intro, deadline for issue two, Sunday, March 21st. Gotta have them. Gotta have them by then. Gotta have them. Give me your best shot. Let's do this.
01:05:40
Speaker
As I say, this daylight savings time is fucking me up, man. I set my alarm every day for 4.50 a.m. It's news for 10 minutes because I'm a slob. And try to get up for five. But that's translating these days into my internal rhythm is 3.50 a.m. and 4 a.m. And at the moment, man, it's a slog to get me out of bed these days. It's the highlight of my day, though, between 5 a.m. and 6.30 a.m.
01:06:08
Speaker
It's all analog, except for Headspace app or if I'm reading a book for the podcast on my 2015 iPad. It's quiet, it's slow. Sit in my office, nice warm light, blanket over my lap, scribble like a mad hatter in my journal. Plan the day, start fretting about phone calls I have to make, drink yesterday's coffee. The night before, I clear my desk with my keyboard, my mouse,
01:06:34
Speaker
Turn off all monitors. It's this cool clean slate. It's relaxing to look at. It's very calming for me. It's such a frenetic clusterfuck of a brain. Nice to see these clear surfaces. Helps me out. Calms me. Centers me or whatever. Set up my pencil in my journal for the next morning so it's there waiting for me.
01:06:56
Speaker
Pencil sharpener is there too. Start the day with a sharp pencil. It's like a little gift to myself. A sharp pencil. Clear plate. Clear, nice blank page. Love it baby. Anyway, that gives you a little audio snapshot into the early pre-sun hours here at CNF Pod HQ.
01:07:14
Speaker
And however you do it, I hope you manage to find a nice warm pocket in your day. Even if there's for five minutes or one minute, a place to zen the fuck out. And maybe, just maybe, a place to stay cool, man. Stay cool forever. See ya.
01:08:05
Speaker
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