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Episode 434: Mirin Fader on Notebooks, Finding the Breakthrough, Biography, and “Dream”
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Mirin Fader is a staff writer for The Ringer and the author of Dream: The Life and Legacy of Hakeem Olajuwon.
The book chronicles the personal and professional transformation of a transformational figure in wonderful, lucid detail.
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Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Episode 434, Mirren Fader on notebooks, finding the breakthrough. Biography in dream. Atop the show, I want to thank Dave Flaws for upping his Patreon membership. And if you want to support the show and get some face to face time with me to talk some things out, because sometimes it's just what you need to do. Visit patreon dot.com slash CNF pod.
00:00:24
Speaker
More is really the key to our job. It's getting more, asking the next question, getting another detail, more, more, more, more into it.
00:00:39
Speaker
Oh hey, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about telling true stories, be it narrative journalism, essays, memoirs, documentary film, podcast. We do it all. I'm Brendan O'Mara. Welcome. By all means, put your feet up on the coffee table. I'm no monster. Mirin Fader returns with her new book, Second Book Dream, the life and legacy of Hakeem Olajuwon.
00:01:05
Speaker
It's published by Hatchet Books. Mirren also is the author of the best-selling biography, Yannis, The Improbable Rise of an NBA Champion. Mirren is one of my favorite writers, and what a joy to have her back on the podcast. Always nice. We love those return, return guests. Very validated.
00:01:27
Speaker
Dream is a fine biography that traces the arc of a pioneering figure in the NBA and the personal transformation he undergoes when he decides to embrace the core ethos of Islam, how he turned from a materialistic hothead to a source of calm for the Houston Rockets and really the world that benefits from his philanthropy.
00:01:48
Speaker
He and the Rockets won back-to-back NBA titles during the sort of the Michael Jordan exodus from the league in the mid-90s. Hakim also fundamentally changed what it meant to be a big man in the NBA, nimble as a guard, but as tall as a telephone pole. He's a private figure, so Mirren speaks about how she navigated the reporting of this book when the central figure wasn't directly cooperative. He was, as Marin shares, indirectly cooperative. Not all biographers are so lucky. The road is littered with biographies who have to circumvent the machine in and around their main characters, you know be it a Bo Jackson or Ricky Henderson, and myriad others. Show notes to this episode more at BrendanOMera.com. Hey, there you can sign up for the up to 11 monthly Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. We're dealing with book recommendations, cool links to cool stuff,
00:02:42
Speaker
Lots of things that I think will bring inspiration to you and your work, and that's what we're all about here. Mirren Fader is a staff writer for The Ringer, where she specializes in long profiles. I mean, that's the dream right there. Just, that's your gig. Long profiles and features, i dream is apropos. She spent a good deal of time at Bleacher Report in the Orange County Register. Her work has been anthologized in years past sports writing, and she also appears in the late Matt Tullis' collection of interviews, Stories Can Save Us. And what makes her a great writer is being an even better reporter.
00:03:18
Speaker
And that's what Mirren is. And I think you're really gonna dig this scene, Ephrais. At the end of the show, Parting Shot is a Janet Malcolm-esque parting shot. If you know, you know. And it's inspired by me thinking I had offended Mirren at one point during this conversation. um i we could We cleared it up. Turns out I didn't, but I really felt like I did. um Anyway, big relief on my part. Okay, here's Mirren Fader. ru
00:03:56
Speaker
A fun jumping off point would be, you know I just caught a video on YouTube of um yeah James Hetfield, you know lead singer and guitarist in my favorite band, and he's just talking about ah his guitars and it just ah what he likes of his guitars, you know ones he uses for a certain songs versus others. And I was like, oh you know what what would be the equivalent and you know in the writing world of kind of tools that we that we use? And then the first thing that came to mind was really yeah notebooks and what kind of notebooks we like.
00:04:26
Speaker
ah And I was wondering if like for you just I love geeking out on notebook. So what's what's your go-to notebook? And yeah, how how do you how do you effectively use it as ah as a tool in your repitorial arsenal?
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, I have this. It's right next to me. It's the standard red stand out book. I got like a million of them off of Amazon. I'm ashamed to say, but, um, I, I am team but write things down. Like I still have a paper planner, which totally my friends, you know, make fun of me all the time. Cause I'll be like, I don't know if I can make it. i I'll let you know when I have my planner at home, like I'll go check. It's like, what is wrong with you? Um, so, you know, for me, the notebooks,
00:05:06
Speaker
I just think of random things like when I'm at the gym, I'm like, Oh, I should have led with this or like maybe we could circle back to that motif at the end and I'll just write it in my notebook. So wherever I go, I always have this notebook. And I don't know why it just has to be the red one. I think it's because like when I started my career at the Orange County Register, those were the ones they had and I met one of my best friends um When she showed me the supplies closet like she opened it and it was like you could kind of hear the oh Like the heaven, you know, and so now I now I'm obsessed
00:05:36
Speaker
i i know I know the feeling. and it it's ah ah what i've been but I think my favorite one, I like the Steno size, the 6x9, and I really like the the Field Notes one, mainly because the the chipboard on either side is very, very sturdy, almost as sturdy as a clipboard.
00:05:56
Speaker
And I really like that degree of sturdiness. And ah you know it is it's good enough size. you know It's bigger than your classic reporter notebook, but it's got OK paper. But I love that chipboard. And that's really important when you're out in the field. and you know If you're lucky enough to do face-to-face stuff and get actually get out in the world and get out from behind the desk.
00:06:14
Speaker
Right, right. Oh my god. Yeah, the things I and I have to have the blue pens. um like I don't really like black pens. I mean, I have both, but I have red as well. But something about the blue pen. I don't know. I just we have these stupid idiosyncrasies about us.
00:06:30
Speaker
yeah Well, idiosyncrasies are so cool to unpack and very fun to talk about because so much of this game is mental and you need so you just need those things to click into place to make you feel the part, look the part. and i yeah i imagine how does How do those help you you know feel the part so you can turn yourself loose?
00:06:51
Speaker
Well, number one, it makes the person because my work involves you know interviewing people, it makes the person that's sitting across from me less anxious because there's not you know four cameramen and there's not all this gear. It's like so simple. There's literally me, my notebook and recorder.
00:07:06
Speaker
It just allows us to really have a conversation instead of feeling like, oh, it's a capital I interview, and we've got to set up an hour before, and you know it's just so simple. We're just talking. and so And personally, when you're interviewing somebody, it's so hard to listen to what they're saying, come up with the next question, process it all at the same time. What is their face looking like? Writing down observations, not just about their face and how they're saying things, but setting? Is there something happening in the setting? Oh, let's note the time stamp that they, you know, started to cry or there's just so many things going on. And I feel like I guess, yeah, it's my emotional support notebook. ah and you're You're alluding to it already. But i how do you navigate and balance the recorder versus the notebook?
00:07:53
Speaker
I need to be present and so neither one can really hold my attention. So I am sparse with my writing. I like to show up like 30 minutes before an interview and just write down everything I see and feel in here.
00:08:06
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um So the bulk of the writing is actually done before the interview and then after I'll do a free write. But during it, I try to be really minimal of like, okay, timestamp this and then write a keyword like emotional or something or the background, something in their face, um because you don't want them to be nervous. Like I'll notice that.
00:08:26
Speaker
If I write something down, they're thinking like, what did I just say that she had to write down? Like, what why was that something she wrote down? And really, it could be a thought that I had about something totally unrelated. They they just don't know that.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I often, ah the timestamp thing is key, ah and often it's just, ah as they're, in a way not to interrupt them, the main thing I often write in my notebook will be just like follow-up questions, like, oh, I'll write down a word, like, oh, that was really cool what they said, and I'll be like, you know, you said a moment ago that, you know, this, you know, what did you mean by that? Can we, let's pull on that thread a little longer, because otherwise, my brain just gets so so full of other stuff that I'll forget those things and be like, ah, damn it.
00:09:06
Speaker
three hours later, I'm like, I forgot to follow up on that. And now it's that moment's gone. Yeah. The most common word I probably write down in my notebook is more. So maybe like mother is talking about their mom and it's like, then they go in a different direction. I'm like, no, I want to go back. So I'll just be like, mom, more. And like that makes sense to no one except for me. but more More is really the key to our job. It's getting more asking the next question, getting another detail, more, more, more, more into it.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah, and that's when I was talking to Seth about that. I brought up the anecdote of ah Darcy Frey, who, you know, the brilliant writer behind, the author behind The Last Shot. And he, early on in his career, he's like, I'm only using a notebook, no recorder. And so, which I kind of wish I could do that, but I just can't.
00:09:55
Speaker
Not in this age. You got to record everything. Yeah. And it's just like and Seth was just like, you that's all good. But like our job, like you said a moment ago, is is to really just gather information. And the recorder is capturing you know all those things. But like you said, you know there are these ambient or atmospheric details that you can, or a facial twitch, or you know like you said, emotional, or more mom. Those are the things that you can capture in the notebook. And if our job is to capture information, then yeah we need to use everything at our disposal.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah, my editor said something earlier this year when I was working on a ah piece about Bronnie James at USC. He was like, you know what your best instrument is? Your eyes and your ears. And I was like, Oh, you know, like your, he was like, and I think he said instead of instrument, I actually think he's your best source is your eyes and your ears. And I just thought, wow, like that, I need to start thinking like that.
00:10:44
Speaker
you know Also, as you get to the writing and revising part of part of things, and I'm at this particular point with this biography I'm writing, and I i hate the book so much. i just I cannot look at it any longer, and I truly hate it. and um yeah How much did you hate you know Dream by the end?
00:11:03
Speaker
This is such a niche question. I love it so much. Writer, writer, I'm trying to start a support group with you. okay um Yes, I really did. and it just you know I always joke, but I'm dead as serious when I say, is it even English? like I'm just reading it and I'm like, I can't even tell anymore. like you know Is it good? Is it bad? like it's just You're so into it. and It's so hard. And that's what's funny about book promo is you're like, Oh, I wrote this like a year ago. I have to like reread my book to remember the anecdotes. And so rereading it has also brought up those feelings. Like I'm, I'm not one of those people that likes to reread my work. Like when it's done, it's done. um I don't ever want to see it again. That's why I went, you know, for, for months after my book, my first book came out, every time Yannis did something, like 20 people would send me the clip and I'm like,
00:11:57
Speaker
I don't want to think about this. I don't want to see this. I'm done. Oh, my God. You're going to get the just like dream shake videos all all year long. It's like, we check this out. And I'm like, you guys know that I probably saw the clip in my research, right? Well, you bring bring up a great point. And this is a question I have right underneath. Like, how much do you hate your book by the end?
00:12:25
Speaker
I'm not over it, okay? I'm not over it. it's It's how do you even know what you've written is good or bad anymore?
00:12:36
Speaker
Oh, man. um that That right there, you don't. So I'm not striving for good anymore. it's is it Is it accurate? Is it truthful? Is it deeply reported? Did I do everything? today Did I make every last call? Did I give literally my whole soul into it?
00:12:57
Speaker
like that That is what I think of. like people like They ask me, oh, what's your favorite story that you've written? It's such a weird question, because I'm like, like I don't think of it like that. When a story is done, I never think, oh, that that was so good. I always think that's really, it's more like I always think, that's so interesting the way it turned out. like For example, like oh, I thought this image would be so central to it, and I'm not even making the final cut. Or, huh, that's so interesting the way that section came together and how we brought these two elements together. It's more like I just,
00:13:27
Speaker
keep thinking of those things, but it's never like, oh, yeah, that was so good. We're talking about, you know, shaping what surprises you, what might be in, what might be out. But when does the shape of the book or a long article really start to reveal itself to you and come into clearer focus?
00:13:44
Speaker
It definitely happens differently each time, but sometimes it happens in the middle of an interview in person, and you just feel this sense of connectivity with the subject, and you're just like, oh, I get it now. Like, that's what I feel. Oh, I get it. Like, I was at, you know, for for Dream, I was at the home of one of his friends, Henry Yborando, who ended up being like a critical part of the story, and really the gut of the story when Hakim um becomes more religious again it changes its whole life and career and I was just in this man's house and I was like this is it like this is what it's about this is the gut of the book this is the heart of it and that's just something you don't get from archives it's something you don't get from stats it's something that just
00:14:26
Speaker
It's just instinctual. It doesn't mean I know exactly how to do it. I definitely struggled immensely writing that. But I don't know. It's just it's a feeling. But sometimes, you know, I always joke with my mom because I feel like this story sucks. No, it's so bad. And she's like, and she's like every single time you say this to me and then you have your breakthrough and you're like, Mom, I had a breakthrough. So, you know, the breakthrough comes at different times. Sometimes it doesn't come to a way at the end of the game and it's due in two days.
00:14:53
Speaker
But the breakthrough does always come. And I'm trying to trust that more. Like, OK, you will figure it out. Elliptically, as we kind of get into some some of the specifics of the book, but I wanted to explore or get a sense of, you know, when your love affair with basketball started.
00:15:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I was in fifth grade. I saw all these boys just like running like together to the basketball courts and like I didn't really even know it was a basketball court. You know, it's like this rectangular shape and there's these two nets and I'm just like, where are they all going? Why are they all like running?
00:15:28
Speaker
And I don't know. It was just an instinct. I was like, well, I want to see what's up. And so I ran with them. And it was just an out of body experience. Like I just picked up the ball and I just was like dribbling and shooting. I was like, I love this. I need this. Like this is what I want to do with my life. And I don't know how at 10 years old I knew that, but I really knew that in my heart. And it really was love at first sight. And, you know, I spent the next 10 years, like really, you know, I wanted to be in the WNBA. I played my first year in college. I went through a lot of injuries, but basketball has always been such a huge part of my life. With ah Hakim, what was it about him that really started to appeal to you? I felt like he is somebody that we know nothing about.
00:16:11
Speaker
And he's one of the greatest of all time players that is is sort of forgotten and um a pioneer whose story just really hasn't been told. And because I love human interest stories, I knew the broad strokes of his story, right, the return to Islam. But nobody had really ever looked into why he needed to return to Islam, why he left it behind, how it changed him.
00:16:33
Speaker
And I just thought there's so many layers to this man and he would be such a compelling subject. I also just didn't feel like he received enough credit for the the body of work that he did. He's just left out of conversations these days. And I tend to pick subjects that are humble and hardworking and driven and he fits that bill, you know, very similar to Giannis.
00:16:53
Speaker
Finally, the Yanis book really was not just about Yanis' life story, but about the current landscape of international players um and how it's changed. And I thought, well, who who was the one that paved the way for the Yanises and the Joel Embiid and beads of the world? And I was like, it's dream. like he It's almost like the prequel to Yanis. He's the one that paved the way. The way African players dominate in the NBA right now, it all traces back to him and nobody's ever made that connection. And so I really wanted to make that connection.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, and I think your your book does an exceptionally good job of examining or interrogating ah why, you know, just the the the American lens often neglects or discounts the, you know, the the foreign players and specifically players that did come from the African continent and the African continent being the key phrasing of it because there's 50 some odd countries on the African continent and it often gets just brushed with as if it's a monolith. And a you know I think your book does a wonderful job of like really contextualizing the continent and the contributions African players have made to their continent, but also to the NBA through the 80s and up through today.
00:18:10
Speaker
Thanks for saying that. yeah you know in In trying to discover more about how Hakeem was a trailblazer, I learned that there were so many before him that blazed the trail for him. And these are names that are just so unknown to most American audiences, from Yomi Sengodei to Dude Tongal and Ed Bona, I wanted this book to give respect and flowers to so many that even came before him and paved the way. you know The way to understand the present is to look to the past. And I wanted it to almost be like a mini book throughout of like the history of the and NBA's efforts in Africa, and then how people like Hakeem, Dikembe Mutombo really influenced an entire generation of people and and growth of of basketball over the continent. and
00:18:52
Speaker
Finally, like so much of Akeem's story has been misunderstood in the sense of it's never talked about, the racism that he experienced in college, in the pros, the misunderstandings people had about him coming from Lagos. And so it was just really important to talk about that because the only thing you hear about him in his college years is Phi Slamajama, the amazing team he was part of. But you never hear about all the way the press characterized him. you know a Biography is not just about a person, it's it's also about eras. It's really about time, environment.
00:19:25
Speaker
You talk about that when he's when he's in Houston and then the way he's covered. A lot of reporters treated him as this you know very simplistic foreigner. It was like, well, he grew up speaking English. you know You know, he sure he had an accent, but it's just like it's not like he was ah you know just piecing together just odd words and using hand signals to make his point clear. Like he's ah yeah he he was totally fluent in English and yet he was characterized as almost simplistic.
00:19:52
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. and And beyond that, that he was incapable of speaking English. Like a rumor was he just, Guy Lewis didn't make him available to the press because he didn't speak English. And that really just really made things worse and worse. Even though Guy Lewis was just trying to shield him from publicity, it just furthered this this awful disgusting narrative that he was other.
00:20:13
Speaker
One of the most interesting things I found was going through the archives of the student newspaper, um the Daily Cougar of the university. And Hakeem actually wrote a firsthand column for the paper about what it was like to be so misunderstood and how he was, you know, his star was rising, but people still had these assumptions that he was quote, dumb and quote, you know, didn't understand things. And it it really upset him and I just it was so important to show that side of him and and that first-hand account because like I said it's just never talked about. ah Just for you as ah as you were starting to unpack his life, what was the experience like just re-examining his life ah right from right from the start?
00:20:59
Speaker
Well, I, first of all, was so grateful that so many people were still alive. ah His coaches from Legos are in their eighties. And with the help of a Nigerian journalist um named Femi Edefessa, who's now become a great friend and support, I was able to interview the coaches and the teammates. And that to me was so exciting because obviously I've read every single thing ever done on him and his coaches and teammates have never been interviewed before for an American publication. So that was critical.
00:21:27
Speaker
The other thing was trying to figure out the origin story of how does he even come to America? Like it's this two sentence story of like Hakeem was playing in Legos and then all of a sudden this white guy named Chris Pond scouts him, takes him to America, supposed to go to St. John's. Ooh, it's too cold. He makes a split decision in the airport to actually go to Houston. Weather determines the course of history. How crazy and dreamlike is this story? And now Houston's a powerhouse.
00:21:54
Speaker
Sounds great, but it really isn't true. And it was fascinating for me to go on that journey. I did my first FOIA request as a journalist, capital J journalist. Really enjoyed that, trying to learn more. and But the more I learned, the more I was like, wow, so none of it's true. St. John's actually didn't recruit him, wasn't expecting him. The myth is is just that, it's a myth. So it was ah it was also quite exciting to get into that myth.
00:22:21
Speaker
and What effect did team handball have on Hakeem's development? It had a huge effect. And handball is incredibly competitive. The court vision that he had to just see above ah the people he was playing in, it's almost like you know a big point guard in the and NBA. And so he started that agility, that quickness, that court vision playing handball. And you had to make a split decision with the ball in like three seconds. So there was always this like ah court awareness and spatial awareness. and nimbleness is not a word, nimbleness. On his feet, agility, that is the word. I promise I've had enough cold brew today. um and It really helped him. and The funny thing was is that he kept turning down the basketball coaches who were saying, like you need to play basketball. That's your sport, not handball. and He's like, no, I like handball. and He just kept turning these basketball coaches down over and over and over until he finally relented and was like, all right, I'll play both.
00:23:17
Speaker
So for a while he was doing both sports. He would leave the basketball court ah with a little, you know, minutes left in the game to go to the handball game, which was like a short distance away. And so he was toggling between the two courts, staying in two different dorms for two different sports at competitions, which I thought was incredible. Early in the book, you write that his story is a powerful meditation on transformation and growth. So in what ways did his life fit into that arc?
00:23:44
Speaker
First, I think there's athletic transformation. um He was not, quote, a dream when he first started out playing basketball. He was not skilled. He did not have an offensive repertoire for a good four years. So he just, he worked and he worked and he transformed himself from this, you know, inexperienced late bloomer that started at age 17 which is crazy and then becomes one of the nation's top shot blockers a year later also crazy to one of the most delicate fantastic offensive players of our time and defense so there's first is the athletic transformation the second ah most importantly the spiritual transformation
00:24:23
Speaker
This is a person who grew up religious, abandoned it for over a decade, and then reconnected with his faith. The spiritual transformation and introspection not only changed him as a human being, helped with his temper, all of these things that were holding him back, but it allowed the Rockets to finally break through and win two championships. um And then finally, I think the third transformation is just geographic. His story, it's so dovetails with the and NBA's expansion into Africa.
00:24:52
Speaker
and basketball becoming a global sport and spreading. And he was really a catalyst for that. And so we chart how you know the league transformed itself. He transformed into ah an ambassador of sorts for the game and and now culminating in there's a professional league in Africa right now. What was the inflection point that that really led allowed him to dive back into his faith and have that spiritual reawakening?
00:25:20
Speaker
It was meeting, I believe it was meeting Henry Burando, the man that I mentioned earlier. Henry is not Muslim, he's Catholic, which I also found really interesting. But it was through talking with him who represented him as like a partial agent slash lawyer about the deeper feelings he was feeling, this emptiness, this spiritual emptiness, this feeling of being materialless materially successful but not personally satisfied. And they would sit and read this book together in Henry's home um called happiness is an inside job. They would ask deep questions of each other like, who do you want to be? What do you see yourself doing? Are you happy with yourself? And, you know, according to Henry, like these were the first time that, you know, Hakeem was really dealing with these questions of inner worth and and where does success come from and where does happiness come from and he started to kind of divorce himself from material things and and devote his life to God. And I don't know if it would have happened if he didn't meet Henry. like what What ends up being being the challenge in writing a book of this nature when the central figure really doesn't care for attention?
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah, I know. And um it's like you respect it so much, right? Like this he is a private person. There's a reason why nothing has been done on him. But actually, it it just really forces you to continue to do the reporting you normally would do, which is call 100, 200, 300 people. um And I ended up, I believe, getting 260 or over 260 people. I think that is part of this story. the The reticence to be in the limelight is what makes him so interesting and so worthy of of this type of treatment. He deserves this story, whether he wants to or not, his story matters. And it's sad to me that the younger generations don't really know about him. And so I actually really enjoyed talking with those people closest to him to find out more. I think I admire a superstar that doesn't see themselves as a superstar.
00:27:25
Speaker
And that, to me, leads to a much richer narrative. And did you end up having access to him or did he divorce himself from it just for the, you know, because he didn't like the limelight? Well, because of the limelight and also just religious reasons and the way that he is a private person, he didn't want to participate. But he was very helpful and he you know allowed me to go to his mosque and meet with an interview, his director and gave me contacts for his friends. And um so he ended up being very helpful.
00:27:56
Speaker
So how do you why handle conversations and lobby a central figure like him that you want to, you know, write a book about him? And yeah what are those conversations like to at least get him on your side? Well, it was a lot of, you know, I know that credit is something that you don't value and it's not important to you and you don't, you know, you don't like the limelight, but I think your story matters. And I think you've inspired a generation and I just think it's time for younger generations to know that story. And Henry's son is actually the one that really lobbied and spent hours talking with Hakeem on my behalf, a very kind man himself saying, you know, she she really wants to do this story justice. And, you know, Henry's son was very helpful in in bridging that connection.
00:28:46
Speaker
You know, there's there's not the perfect words. It's hard. Again, it's like if somebody just wants to live a private life and stay out of the limelight, there's there's not much, you know, you can say. But I really just tried to focus on the fact that I wanted to talk about that humility, I wanted to show that that is part of it. That you can achieve a lot and stay out of the limelight. You can be massively successful and not be boastful. And that those were things that I would highlight in the book, which I did.
00:29:16
Speaker
And when you're writing a sports biography, the it can be very difficult to not to to make it more than wrote you know just game stuff and highlights and all that stuff. It can get awfully predictable if you're in the wrong hands. It can just feel like, ugh, another game, another race, this, that, and the other.
00:29:39
Speaker
So, ah you know, for you, how are you, you know, you you need some of that to some extent. Any sports writer or a sports reader is going to crave that on some level. But how do you try to get beyond that and use whatever game tape it there is to inform the story and not lean on that stuff too much? Yeah, it's hard because I feel like I'm trying to satisfy two audiences. There's like the diehard sports fans that like live for the game log and the play by play and like the one move over David Robinson. And then there's my my other core audience, the NPR people that like do not care at all. And what I learned from my first book is you just cannot satisfy either one fully, like that there are some that are gonna gloss right over the David Robinson couple of pages and some that are gonna be like, oh my God, I was seven years old and I saw it myself and it was bamboozled and he was so great. So, you know, it's it's just, I try to put enough in it
00:30:35
Speaker
But I also know that like, that isn't what I personally find the most interesting and what I want to focus on. So you try to balance it with more reporting about other things. Like to me, the most moving part of the first title with the Rockets was not necessarily a play, but that he goes to the mosque right after um instead of going out and celebrating with his teammates. I i thought that's just such an epitome of of who he is.
00:31:03
Speaker
What makes and sports and sports writing interesting is the getting to that that human element and then the athletic stuff acts just as seasoning on top of that.
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's a tricky balance. And I sometimes say, oh, I wish I didn't have to put the stat here. But that is important. And in fact, you know trying to get to the origins of the dream shake, I found that really interesting. And like trying to figure out how refs were like so confused how to ref him because they weren't sure if he was traveling, that's interesting. So I think there's a way to talk about the game or how the Sonics players you know confessed to me that they intentionally fouled him because they couldn't stop him. And they, quote, beat the crap out of him.
00:31:43
Speaker
There's a way to talk about the game that's interesting that isn't bogged down in play by play. And with biography, and this is something I've kind of struggled with and have a hard time articulating, ah articulating this, but sometimes it feels, I guess it goes to applies to journalism in general, sometimes it feels like inherently exploitative. And, you know, you're benefiting by telling someone else's story. And it's just like,
00:32:08
Speaker
you know It just feels, like I said, mildly exploitative. I wonder if like how you reconcile that or even or just think about that when doing you know biography, be it Giannis or Hakeem and ah even to feature work, though feature work doesn't seem as, lack of a better term, and insidious. Sometimes the book stuff makes it feel like you're really taking advantage of someone for your own gain. I wonder if that's something you think about.
00:32:35
Speaker
ah No, I don't feel that I do that. I'm not even in my work. you know A lot of journalists put themselves in there and put the I in there and make it all about them. So yeah, I don't feel that. I think journalism is a public service. it's um it's It matters. telling Telling these stories matter. And we all have a right to do that. And it's it's work. you know It's very hard work. And you know from that doing that yourself. So yeah, I don't feel that way.
00:33:03
Speaker
Yeah, ah with ah with my like a the sister of my main source, yeah she basically told me like to fuck off. And you know you're just a leech, just trying to capitalize on my brother. ah Other sources I've talked to, they're like they asked for money to talk to me because, well, if you're making you're making money on this, why can't we make any money on this? And I was just like, ugh.
00:33:30
Speaker
And so I ran into that frequently and it got me thinking about this idea of benefiting from it, even though in the end it's like minimum wage. But it's it's still like, it's this thing that was just on my mind and always just made me, ah it it it backed me into a corner that I wasn't comfortable in.
00:33:48
Speaker
Well, it's the same in journalism. like We don't pay our sources. I can't pay you to do an interview for a feature for the rare because you're seen as currying favor. So it's the same in books. like I get asked all the time for money and I'm like, I i literally can't.
00:34:03
Speaker
pay you. um And so it's the same in in long form work. um So but that isn't really talked about. But yeah, it's the same is like you want an an unbiased thing. And that's why, you know, biographies are so important because it is the unvarnished truth. It is a non biased account. it It isn't a ghost written puff book, you know, and it isn't a co written puff book. It's a real deal.
00:34:26
Speaker
And in talking to Ian O'Connor, we talked about the unauthorized ah designation for biography. and how that's just like That word and that title is such a disservice to the journalism at the heart, because ultimately that's what you want. You want an unauthorized thing that isn't that is not informed by the point of view of the central figure this way you know you're getting it you're triangulating from hundreds of sources to get to a really good story and ah yeah and that to me that's the you know that that's the way to do it and yeah to to tell these stories in a way that ah that honors the person at heart and sometimes there are some unsavory details but that just to me just rounds out the character.
00:35:08
Speaker
most biographies don't get the the main person. that's That's just the common thing. I mean, look at the new Pulitzer Prize-winning Martin Luther King Jr. biography. King is dead. So was that not a good book because he didn't get King? No, it's fantastic. um So it's it's that's the norm. What were some ah unique challenges for you in researching and reporting this book?
00:35:33
Speaker
Well, um it's a different era. So a lot of the people that you know you need to talk to unfortunately have passed away or they are very much you know older and their memory is is lacking. So I think that that was a struggle that a lot of people passed away after I had interviewed them. So you know I think that was a unique struggle. Just learning, just learning. I wanted this book to be very informative about you know Islam and and Nigeria and just I'm reading as much as I could. I mean, most of what I read for this project had nothing to do with basketball. And there's some there's a moment late in the book where, you know, Hakeem is – I think he's on the doorstep of retiring or thereabouts. And, you know, he asks himself this question, but I think whoever he was speaking to, he's like, did did you give it your all? Or did you give it all you had?
00:36:23
Speaker
I really just like that as a as a framing question and as a general sense of ethic. And I wonder like for for you, like when you hear something like that, especially when you try to pour so much of yourself into into the work at hand, you know that do you ah when you're done with a book, are you asking yourself that question, like, ah, did did I give it everything I had? Yeah, all the time. Every story I do, every book, it's very much, and it's not even asking it because you know you do it. like it's It's just,
00:36:53
Speaker
it's ah Writing is like a physical act. like I am exhausted when I turn in a story, let alone a book. I give everything. like This is not just a job. to like This is not just a career. like This is my passion. This is is my life. So you know I very much think of it in those same terms.
00:37:13
Speaker
And granted, you're getting a chance to sort of reacquaint yourself with you know your own book and Hakeem. But you know in the time that you were maybe away from it, that necessary time away, um and even projecting a couple months ahead, is so do you find yourself ever like you know missing Hakeem and working with him every day, so to speak?
00:37:36
Speaker
No, i I'm already on the next project and I um yeah have so many stories for Ringer that like I just can't afford to like think back. I feel like every day there's so many things to do and I'm always behind and so I just never No. yeah no i It was really nice because this time I didn't do the audio book. I did um an essay that is original and you can only find in the audio book and then I did the prologue. So I narrated those things, but I got a voice actor who's fantastic um to do this book. And that was really nice for me because I didn't have to live the book again. I could just leave it.
00:38:17
Speaker
and see And I guess ah just a couple more things, Mirren. What would you identify maybe as a a crucial lesson that maybe you learned from book one that helped you to book two? Just how to do the damn thing. I did not know anything about how to do a book. Nobody does till you do your first book.
00:38:37
Speaker
and I just learned how to balance the reporting and writing. that is really Because people don't understand it. You're not just sitting and writing a book. you're You're literally interviewing hundreds of people before you can even think about writing a book. it's It's like two different processes. It's just knowing how to do it is just what I learned. and I know that's very vague. but um The other thing I learned is just urgency. These people are getting older. You want to interview as many people as possible. You know, Bill Walden, Jerry West, so many people that I interviewed ah passed away after I had ah gotten their their testimony. And it just, I don't know, it's made me feel an urgency to tell these stories more quickly.
00:39:19
Speaker
Very nice. Well, Mirinette, it's always wonderful getting a chance to talk some shop and, of course, you know celebrate your wonderful books. I want to thank you so much for ah carving out some time to come on the show and talk shop and celebrate Hakeem Olajuwon. Yeah, thank you so much.
00:39:38
Speaker
Nice. Awesome. Yes. Hey, thanks to Mirren for coming back on the show. Good stuff. Name of the book, again, is Dream, the life and legacy of Akeem Olajuwon. Go buy it for the sports biography lover in your life, the basketball lover in your life. Maybe someone who needs a good kick in the ass. Okay, so I don't know if you noticed or not, but I but i definitely did in the edit. When I when i asked Mirren about this idea of exploitation in biography or feature writing or whatever,
00:40:10
Speaker
I noticed a significant change in energy, and I really feel like I had offended Mirren, that I was accusing her of being exploitative of people. It's something I have deeply wrestled with in my reporting of the Prefontaine book, and that's the ethos of that that question. and I corresponded with Mirren, apologizing that I had offended her, and she assured me that I did not.
00:40:32
Speaker
So that's that's where this parting shot comes from and I originally had this in the introduction because before I had heard back from Mirren I had assumed until I heard otherwise that I did offender and so this was kind of my my case of what I what i meant in in clarification. So in any case, that that's where that's where this comes from. And how journalists tell other people's stories for personal gain. It's a thing I've wrestled with for 20 years and still wrestle with. Like, who the hell am I to earn attention or even a happy buck by writing about somebody else?
00:41:09
Speaker
yeah I was accused of this during my reporting several times. and I think she might have thought I was accusing her of being exploitative, which wasn't my intent at all. When I'm troubled by something, and I've been troubled by this for two years,
00:41:22
Speaker
I often ask my guests about it. ah It helps me, but I think it also helps the community and have people, have smart people talk about those kind of issues, right? And so, you know, well, is Jeff Perlman exploiting Bo Jackson by writing a biography on him? Is Ian O'Connor exploiting Aaron Rodgers? David Maron is with Jim Thorpe. Vince Lombardi or Roberto Clemente? Or Madeleine Blaise with Alice Marble? Or Kai Bird with Robert Oppenheimer? Or Robert Caro with Lyndon Johnson? Or me with Prefontaine?
00:41:50
Speaker
As Howard Bryant, a biographer of Hank Aaron and Ricky Henderson, said on this podcast, the stories we remember are the ones that get repeated. So it's on the journalists to dive into the archives and make hundreds of phone calls to round out a life, keep that heart beating. Journalists are the life support for certain icons.
00:42:10
Speaker
You know, without the storytellers, life very much goes on and people will forget. As Madeline Blase said, biography is kind of ah the most brazen genre because we seek to resurrect lives. After I was done in the edit for this particular episode, I emailed Mirren saying I was sorry for offending her and explained why I like to ask smart people about this topic. and It really is a topic, and I'm not so sure how well it's aged, but I think it's aged a while, right?
00:42:37
Speaker
It's a topic that Janet Malcolm made famous in her book, The Journalist and the Murderer. Her opening graph is a savage indictment of her own trade. Here it is. so Every journalist who is not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible. He is a kind of confidence man, preying on people's vanity, ignorance or loneliness, gaining their trust and betraying them without remorse. Like the credulous widow who wakes up one day to find the charming young man and all her savings gone. So the consenting subject of a piece of nonfiction writing learns. When the article a or a book appears, his hard lesson
00:43:17
Speaker
Journalists justify their treachery in various ways according to their temperaments. The more pompous talk about freedom of speech and the public's right to know, the least talented talk about art, the seemliest murmur about earning a living.
00:43:33
Speaker
call me Seemly. ah People ask me for money to talk about Steve Prefontaine, and I guys say can't do that. Or I asked if I planned on giving any any dollar I made from the book to the Prefontaine Foundation, and it gives you an idea. That many people view journalists as leeches. you know They don't see it as a job. They don't see it as work. They see us reporters as vermin picking through the trash. I've been accused of it a number of times.
00:44:01
Speaker
So anyway, thankfully I did hear from Mirren like 10 o'clock my time, night before this was supposed to publish, and I usually set it to publish at 3 a.m. local time, so it goes 6 a.m. on the east coast, and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna table the publication, I'm gonna retrack my intro, I'm gonna reshape this parting shot so it it makes more sense and put it to the end of the show versus the beginning. So it's just one of those one of those deals. I think we're cool.
00:44:33
Speaker
She assured me I did not offend her. ah It felt like I did. It definitely felt like I did. And that was not the case. And there you go. So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interview, see ya.