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Episode 461: For Nick Davidson, Stories Hunt the Storyteller
494 Plays11 days ago
Nick Davidson, @nickgdavidson on IG, says, "We usually think of hunting stories and looking for ideas, but I feel like it's the other way around: stories hunt the storyteller, and I'm just prey."
Nick's latest piece is for The Atavist Magazine titled "The Balloon That Fell From the Sky."
His work has appeared in Outside, VICE Sports, Garden & Gun, and a million other places of note.
Podcast Specific Substack at creativenonfictionpodcast.substrack.com.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Upcoming Publications and Events
00:00:00
Speaker
I see an effort where less than two months away from the publication of the front runner. So be sure you secure yourself a preorder while supplies last call now. But seriously, go to your bookseller of choice and maybe preorder it.
00:00:13
Speaker
Also, it's getting close to the next live taping of the podcast. If you're in Eugene, Sunday, April 13th at 1 At Gratitude Brewing, I'll be interviewing Leah Satili about Blazing Eye Sees All.
00:00:29
Speaker
Love has won false prophets in the fever dream of the American New Age. It's her latest book. It's amazing. Dig it. For me, it was like this record scratch moment where I was just like,
Introduction to Podcast and Guests
00:00:42
Speaker
what? Wait a second. Hold on. We we moved from that way too fast.
00:00:51
Speaker
OAC Nevers, it's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, show where I speak to tellers of true tales. About the true tales they tell, I'm your host, Brendan Amer. Don't leave. Don't leave. It's that atavistian time of the month.
00:01:02
Speaker
So there are some spoilers here. The balloon that fell from the sky is authored by Nick Davidson, a writer and journalist based out of Santa Fe, New Mexico, which might be named New America if this administration continues to torch the The constitution in any and all human decency, 15 teams lifted off from Switzerland.
00:01:23
Speaker
In gas ballooning's most audacious race, three days later, two of them drifted into Belarusian space, but only one would survive. shit I'm attending my first protest tomorrow, that.
00:01:36
Speaker
Hands off, 2025. Got one in Eugene from 12 to 3 on
Humorous Commentary on Elon Musk
00:01:40
Speaker
Saturday. I was thinking of making an Elon Musk sign that instead of his tech support shirt, it says, like, Nazi support. Anyway, Nick Davidson can be seen at nickgdavidson.com.
00:01:55
Speaker
He knows how to play an almighty riff. He's a storyteller, outdoorsman, traveler, martial artist, yogi, musician. His stories tend to live at the outdoorsy crossroads of adventure, the natural world, and the human condition.
00:02:10
Speaker
Good
Additional Content and Support
00:02:11
Speaker
eats. Show notes of this episode of more at brendanumera.com. Hey, there, you can read hot blogs. And sign up for the monthly Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. I'm getting more and more ragey, CNFers.
00:02:23
Speaker
So if you want book recommendations, cool links, and good cheer, sign up. First of the month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it. There's now a weekly companion pod stack at creative nonfictionpodcast.substack.com.
00:02:36
Speaker
If you want the transcripts and the text of the podding shot, deep dives into the archives, this is the newsletter to enrichen your podcast experience. I thought more people might be into it, but it's really no big deal because I need to do the transcripts for the eventual CNF pod book.
00:02:51
Speaker
And this holds me accountable. Whether five of you sign up or 5,000, I'd prefer five k but whatever. Here's the thing. I'm also thinking of maybe just doing the transcript as a, like ah like I'll just link out to it in Dropbox. you can download if you want.
00:03:06
Speaker
And instead of just having the full transcript in the pod stack, doing a more Maria Popovian, old school brain pickings kind of riff where maybe I write a thousand words with lots of quotes that shapes the conversation like a mini feature.
00:03:19
Speaker
That way the body of the pod stack isn't too long. But if you want the entire transcript, go download it. I might try that with this one. It's not going to come out the Friday. I got a lot going on. um Might come out Monday.
00:03:30
Speaker
I don't know. Shout out to Kim Kelly for becoming a $4 patron. Kim was one of my letters to the editor writers when I was stewarding the sinking ship that was the Register Guard opinion page for three years.
00:03:45
Speaker
She always wrote concise, organized, and crystallized arguments in fewer than 200 words. So thank you, Kim, for this extra bit of support. And you too can support the pod by heading to patreon.com slash cnfpod.
00:03:57
Speaker
you imagine if the pod made $2,000 a month through Patreon? That'd be cool. $1,900 more to go. Let's go. Let's go. Okay. First, we're going to hear from Jonah Ogles. You know him.
00:04:10
Speaker
The lead editor of this piece. Consider subscribing to The Atavis, magazine.atavis.com. I don't get kickbacks. I just piggyback on the audience. Ain't that cool? No parting shot this episode since things got a bit wordy.
00:04:23
Speaker
But rest assured, I will deliver a parting shot for the ages next week. Here's Jonah.
Editors' Perspective on Story Pitches
00:04:28
Speaker
Riff. Riff.
00:04:36
Speaker
You need to a truffle pig. But you know, thought it was a machete brandished. I almost always have a very specific reader in mind. I know, i sometimes wish I would have never done any of these things. This is gonna have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:04:56
Speaker
uh, you know, just like in, in their own box, um, or, or certainly that like editors, whatever editors are thinking and doing is just kind of its own thing in a separate space.
00:05:09
Speaker
Um, so I'm glad to hear that it, it's helpful to hear kind of how we talk about stories and pitches. Yeah, well, there's so much, you know, be it ah book proposals or how gatekeepers are thinking. There's not a whole lot of conversation or transparency around that. So it can feel really isolating. And like you're constantly trying to crack a code, like you're like a code breaker, like, all right, I'm going to try it this way. And sure, there is a lot of trial and error involved at this.
00:05:38
Speaker
But it can be really frustrating when you can go for years sometimes not knowing maybe the best way to pitch or how much research you should be putting into a pitch, you know, how much is too much or how much is too little and and so forth. So get it yeah getting your inputs, I think, has been greatly helpful, certainly for me, but also for a lot of the listeners who are starting to now, as they pitch stories, think like you on the other side. And I think that's really just elevating the game of those pitches.
00:06:04
Speaker
Good, good. And speaking of that, you know, let's launch into Nick's piece here. When this comes across your desk, you know, what lit you up about ah the way Nick sold this piece to you?
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, well, he had done a lot of reporting, you know, and it really, it showed in the pitch for sure. it it was clear that he had, there was a lot of a high level of detail in in the pitch, you know, it read almost like the first section would, you know, there was like,
00:06:36
Speaker
color and dialogue and scenery, ah which always, you know, you want to give enough of a sense of your writing is always helpful because we know, okay, he he kind of knows the type of thing we're doing, but it it also shows that like he's done the work and he, you know, he has the stuff to back it up. We get a lot of pitches where,
00:06:59
Speaker
I'll even ask, like, have you talked to these people yet? Because it's just not really clear in the pitch. It might even be like a well-written pitch, but it it's just not clear that they've actually talked to the main sources. And Nick nick had done the work and and had a good sense of how he wanted to tell the story. And it it was one of those that came in. And like we even before we met in the meeting, like kind of knew we were going to assign it. Mm-hmm.
00:07:28
Speaker
How much voice and style do you like seeing in a pitch? i I like it. I mean, i you know, like nick and I actually had a had an early conversation where i I politely asked if we could ban the word voice from our editing discussions, not because of anything he did. I just...
00:07:51
Speaker
yeah I find sometimes that that the idea of voice can end up being kind of a distraction as you move through the editing process. But to your question, it's nice. Like, i want it to feel pretty polished, you know, whether that means it's super voicey or just really clean.
00:08:08
Speaker
It just needs to read like like the story will ultimately read. And yeah, I am often telling writers who send in very brief pitches of like two, 300 words.
00:08:20
Speaker
I'll say to them like, look, but we are getting pitches that are like... 1,500 words, 2,000 words, sometimes sometimes even like 3,000. We want it to read like the first section of a story, like get us hooked on these characters and this the setting and on your writing, and then you can back up and tell us...
00:08:44
Speaker
Here, you know, here are the people I've talked to. Here's what I still have left to do. Here's how I see the story progressing from beginning to end. It's very helpful when we get a pitch that's just like reads like the story, even if the idea is ultimately not for us, it immediately makes me go, okay, here's somebody who gets it yeah and who I would like to work with.
Story Structuring Challenges in Creative Nonfiction
00:09:06
Speaker
With Nick's story, as you're having that dialogue and that back and forth of how to had a structure and pace out this story, what were some of the conversations you were having as you were generating you know what became you know just a really wonderful, rollicking piece?
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah, if I remember right, he had, i don't think we talked too much about structure before the draft came in, which is fine. You know, some some writers, i want help with an outline and they want to talk through structure and I'm happy. That kind of developmental editing, I find really fun. Yeah.
00:09:44
Speaker
I enjoy it when it does happen, but if writers know how they want to do it, great. And so when I got the first draft of this story, I think the biggest challenge for us was there's the event itself. there's this the It's a gas ballooning race. And you know so there are like 15 competitors up in the air flying over Europe at the whims of the wind. And Nick's writing about ballooning was just like, from the beginning, great.
00:10:12
Speaker
Like it it was evocative and, um, you know, there were minor things that I didn't quite understand, but he really had a handle on the actual sport, but then there's this tragic accident.
00:10:23
Speaker
And following that, there are two or maybe even three competing investigations into what happened. Um, I don't remember exactly how much of the story the discussion of those investigations took up, but it was a lot.
00:10:40
Speaker
You know, it it might have been 40 to 50% of the story and all of it after the action had had more or less concluded, you know? So that was the biggest narrative issue that we had to work through. It was like, okay, it's absolutely important to understand what...
00:11:02
Speaker
you know, these entities said and caused the accident and what this sort of counter investigation found. But we just can't devote 6000 words to it. You know, i often tell writers that like, if you're like, I really don't like to be away from the the narrative for much more than like three to 500 words.
00:11:24
Speaker
you know without like coming back to a character or something but ah but i think like a thousand or 1200 would be an absolute max to to sort of at least in an atavis story you know without coming back so so we just had to find a way to really condense that down and and i did some of it and nick did some of it and i did some more but But ultimately, we we got those down to just what we absolutely needed to know. And then the piece was able to keep moving after that. you know We were able to like do a brief detour into this important thing, but then come back into the narrative without readers feeling like they'd been away for ah long time. Yeah.
00:12:07
Speaker
Yeah, I remember when I was helping someone out with a project that a few years ago and yeah in the piece it was like you could start to feel you're like not that it not that things were boring but you're like looking at your watch you're like alright we're straying too far from like our main guy like we're we're hooked on like this guy being as Lawrence Wright would say the mule like we need that person and you're like this thing is going on forever like alright when's he coming back when's he coming back?
00:12:35
Speaker
yeah And i you get a sense of after, like in an atavis piece, maybe 300, 500 words, you're like, okay, we're pushing up against the limit here. Yeah, yeah. And it you know that can depend on what the detour is that you've taken in the story. you know Sometimes you need to to kind of go go off on ah a tangent for a little while, but you know you try to find the right place to do that. And I don't remember exactly what Nick and I did, but I think we did play a little bit with where where to do that and what should immediately precede it and follow it.
00:13:14
Speaker
Because you can you can use that to your benefit. you know If you've got a real cliffhanger of a section ending... just before the tangent, you, I think you owe it to readers to come back to it relatively quickly, you know, but, ah but I do think the cliffhanger buy buys you a little more time than just like leading into it with, you know, something that,
00:13:40
Speaker
that There's not a lot of tension. There's not a lot of drama. i think you want something sort of hanging out there that readers really want to know and and are eager to get back to.
00:13:52
Speaker
and When a first draft comes to you, which is pretty well polished and when you're starting to, okay, this is going to be the the marble that we're working with to hone to a nice statue.
00:14:03
Speaker
What are some common things that you notice that and ah in a first draft that typically need work across you know the body of work you've edited? In general, like the the background and context tends to be a little longer than it needs to be.
00:14:21
Speaker
i think writers, as they get deep into the reporting process, you know if they're good, they've done a lot of background research and they have they have all this material that you know might say something about the state of gas ballooning or you know and and things like that, that may not there may not be a place for it in the narrative, but like within a character's arc, but they feel like it's really you know it helped them understand things.
00:14:52
Speaker
and they can kind of lose sight. now I'm not blaming them. I think it's just natural that, you know, okay, here it all is. Here's all this other stuff that i' that I've learned and that I want to talk about.
00:15:03
Speaker
So we're often paring that stuff down. And then I'm usually also pressing, and this is maybe a little unique to Atavis stories, but I'm usually pressing for more scenes.
00:15:16
Speaker
I think especially for writers coming forward if this is the first piece they've written, that's maybe going to be published at longer than 4,000 words or 5,000 words, there is a little bit of an adjustment into how you, how you pace things.
00:15:33
Speaker
And we just like more scenery, you know, we want more dialogue. So easily one of my most common comments is more, but i want to hear these people more, like get me closer to them, put me on their shoulder,
00:15:47
Speaker
And let me really like inhabit this moment with them. I want to hear what they're thinking. I want to hear what they're saying, smell what they're smelling. Like yeah just put it all out there and slow down on that stuff.
00:15:59
Speaker
So it's like slow down on all the all the drama and and speed up on anything that's not that. Yeah, oh, for sure. When you were working with Nick on this piece and you said that his pitch was like very well reported, very well researched, just overall with the the experience of this particular piece, what struck you about Nick's talent as a writer or reporter? like What really jumped out off of the experience ah from with ah with him from you know from your perspective?
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah, his revision. I mean, that his first revision. And like I i told him, because Nick and i we know each other. We lived in Santa Fe. You know, I was there for whatever it was, seven, eight years.
00:16:45
Speaker
You know, and so we worked together at Outside. And, you know, and I really i really wanted this story to be amazing. And I really went hard on the first edit. And...
00:16:58
Speaker
it was one of the few times I think I've even said like, I'm sorry if this is like, if this is harsh, like I don't, I don't mean for it to be harsh and it's not a, it's not a personal reflection.
00:17:09
Speaker
I am just really pushing on the story because I wanted it to be great. And, and there were some the obvious fixes I thought, or some things that were obvious to me that would, I thought would help.
00:17:20
Speaker
And man, his revision was like, It was so good. I mean, it was it was one of the best revisions I've ever gotten. And he he did extra reporting.
00:17:32
Speaker
He went back to sources. he He really, like, he just took it seriously, you know. And so and sometimes, i i don't fault writers for this, but sometimes you feel like their revisions come in and it was just kind of like the they wanted it off their plate as quickly as possible. Just like, and accept change, accept change, accept change. and Yes, totally.
00:17:54
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. They, they put in the work on this long draft and, and they just want to like, okay, whatever, just keep it moving. But Nick really, like he went back to the table and did the work and it showed like it that second draft. It was not very different from the story we ultimately published, like just trimming and tightening a little bit, but his revision was solid. and What is the experience like for you when you're editing someone that you've known for a while that you're probably very like good friends with? yeah How does that change the dynamic?
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it depends. Yeah. You know, it's got, I've had it gone really, it's gone really wrong for me before, you know, like it's, my feelings have been hurt. Their feelings have been hurt.
00:18:43
Speaker
The friendship has suffered. I don't laugh because it's funny. I just, I just laugh because it's just, yeah, I just, I just like, I feel for you in that regard. Well,
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah. And, and I feel for them, you know, like I, I do, I look back on some of those experiences and I'm just like, Oh God, what a nightmare for them have had to go through, you know, and, ah and I think in most cases it's fine. And some, in some ways it's a little easier, you know, because like, you know, editing, I've edited my friend, Will Grant, a bunch, um, and read parts of his book that he ultimately wrote.
00:19:25
Speaker
And, you know, we know each other well enough. I can just, I can be honest. I can say like, I didn't get this at all, you know? and And sometimes that's a little better than like somebody I've never worked with who like I'm worried about how sensitive they might be. yeah And I don't necessarily, I don't really like confrontation or conflict. So I might be like, well, you know, I'm a little confused. is Are we saying this? Are we saying that?
00:19:52
Speaker
And sometimes it could just be better to like cut of straight through it. And in in Nick's case, i think it only helped us because you know we we know each other, we know that we're both serious about the work and care most about the story. And so it allowed us to just really, well, I don't i don't think I would have been quite as harsh with that first edit as I was if I i didn't know him and know that he could handle it Awesome. well Well, Jonah, this is really a really rich ah side of the table, too, for your experience with this ah incredible story that and a you and Nick brought across the finish line.
00:20:31
Speaker
So anyway, just always great to get your impressions. And just thanks for the time. And and we're go we'll kick it over to Nick right now. All right. Thanks for having me, Brandon.
00:20:45
Speaker
All right. That was great, wasn't it? I thought so. So next work has appeared in Outside magazine, The Atavist, Men's Journal, Gardening Gun.
00:20:56
Speaker
Stay tuned for Amanda Hecker at some point. ah She's and in the can. Executive editor or editor-in-chief, I don't know, of Gardening Gun. And High Country News, that's a the the other body of work for Nick,
00:21:12
Speaker
Backpacker, Sierra, Vice Sports, and Popula Science. You can find him on the gram at Nick G. Davidson. He has a dynamite beard, and this is a dynamite conversation. And really, stay through to the end.
00:21:23
Speaker
Like, it's a legit great conversation towards the end. Not that the whole... not that That doesn't discount or discredit everything that happened before, but, like, it gains a whole other level of altitude at the end that I think you're really going to dig.
00:21:39
Speaker
So here's Nick. Let's get after it. Huh.
The Balloon Race Incident and Nick's Journey
00:21:51
Speaker
First phone call to publication yesterday, and and yet it's a story that, you know, like my my mom told me, okay, I'm gonna start reading it, and then an hour later, I'm done, it was amazing.
00:22:03
Speaker
It's just funny that like something that's taken me so long to create, of course, as is you know expected, can be consumed in an hour, hour and a half. but So it's like this a little bit of a surreal feeling, but really good to get some good response so far. And it's it's trickling in in a good way.
00:22:19
Speaker
And just happy to see people enjoying it, finally. And when you were researching the story or even a step before that, you know how did this story get on your radar in the first place?
00:22:36
Speaker
I'll start by saying so I live in ah Santa Fe, New Mexico, and an hour south of here is Albuquerque, which is kind of like the balloon capital of the world.
00:22:47
Speaker
pretty much. and There's a an annual International Bloom Fiesta every October. And I've lived here for coming up on 15 years now. And so balloons in a way have have really been in the air, to use a bad pun. And they've just been in the zeitgeist here. and and And I've been aware of them for a long time.
00:23:07
Speaker
and then also weirdly, I grew up in a town in Indiana called Fishers, got right on the border of another town called Noblesville. And every year there was, ah you know, I don't even know if it was a ah race per se, but some kind of balloon event that um every summer as a kid I'd look up and suddenly dozens of balloons would be in the air and I would, you know, recognize ones that I'd see year after year and really enjoy that and kind of thought of it as this this magical kind of whimsical adventure thing.
00:23:37
Speaker
So I didn't really think about it much, but I guess in a way balloons were kind of just like in in my um an internal experience somewhere lurking in my subconscious. And I thought, you know, I came to Santa Fe originally to work with Outside Magazine. And so i was always thinking of really interesting adventure stories to tell. and And at some point I thought I got to find a good balloon story. like There's got to be something good out there.
00:24:01
Speaker
It was early 2020, right before the pandemic. I was, um as I've been doing for years, I was volunteering with the adaptive ski program up at Ski Santa Fe.
00:24:13
Speaker
And one day after our lessons, a group of of other instructors and I went up to this mid-mountain bar called Totem Offs, got a drink to end the day. And on the wall behind the person across from me was this...
00:24:30
Speaker
really interesting poster that I just never, i don't know if I'd never seen it, I'd never noticed it before, but um it was a poster about some kind of balloon accomplishment or race.
00:24:42
Speaker
And it mentioned something about the first transatlantic balloon crossing and trans-pacific balloon crossing and it turned out that the person who had done both of these things was the um he's no longer alive but was the original owner of ski santa fe and his grandson i believe still runs it today so a family run ski hill and and i was like i didn't even know that this internationally known, respected balloon family lived in Santa Fe or or Albuquerque, I think.
00:25:16
Speaker
And so I kind of started digging into it. And ah originally I thought maybe I was going to be doing some sort of like multi-generational a balloon family adventure kind of thing.
00:25:31
Speaker
Because as it turns out, Ben Abruzzo Sr.'s son, Richard Abruzzo, is also a well-known and respected balloonist who who tragically lost his life in in the Gordon Bennett race in 2010, I believe. And yeah i just thought, like, there's something interesting with this balloon family. And um talked to a few people, dug into it a little bit. And as I was digging, i found...
00:25:55
Speaker
Randomly, it was it was like a 1990s New York Times article that just had this this really kind of wild, almost surreal throwaway line that like in the midst of whatever it was about, it said something almost casually like,
00:26:10
Speaker
ah The Belarusian military shot down a ah balloon in the midst of this prestigious international race. And for me, it was like this record scratch moment where I just like, what? Wait a second. Hold on. We moved from that way too fast.
00:26:24
Speaker
And it turned out that there wasn't really a lot about it. I mean, I i looked... ah For a while and found, you know, in in the, you know week or two following this incident in 1995, there was definitely a lot of press and even in the New York Times and a bunch of local newspapers, international newspapers, but there wasn't much to it.
00:26:47
Speaker
And I just thought like, I, no one else has apparently dug into this story and I just wanted to know him more. And my, one of my guiding principles is, is if I want to know more, if I'm hooked, if I'm intrigued, then i know other people are going to be intrigued too.
00:27:02
Speaker
What you said a moment ago really underscores what it means to be like a long-form or narrative journalist. like They moved on from that way too fast. And therein lies like oftentimes when your your spidey sense tingles and it's kind of like, all right, there's probably a full-flesh story here and I got to lean into this for a bit more.
00:27:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's one thing that i I kind of look at. I mean, I'm always... just keeping my my eyes open my i don't know my heart open to to kind of just and i really believe in paying attention to my intuition so like i i come across lines like that and i let it stop me and if If the gears are turning and I want to know more, you know, sometimes it doesn't always go anywhere, but but a lot of times I find that there's there's definitely a story to be told there. the The question is, how much is there? How much can I find? Who can I contact?
00:28:02
Speaker
you know What kind of access is there? And then am I the person to tell it? like do i Do I want to invest in this? But yeah, I'm always just kind of keeping my eyes out for these little nuggets. And whenever some some little light bulb goes off in my head, I know at least I need to look more.
00:28:19
Speaker
So when you you come across... a story like that and you're like, there's more here and you're following your intuition, what is the first step from there for you?
Researching and Crafting a Compelling Pitch
00:28:29
Speaker
First step for me is probably just some basic online digging, some Googling, seeing what's out there. i mean, a lot of times actually my question is,
00:28:42
Speaker
Has someone else done this before? um Because, you know, you can catch those little lines and and think, oh, my God, this is a great story. And then you're like, yeah, well, so a lot of other people thought that, too, and they wrote books about it.
00:28:56
Speaker
So maybe I won't do that one. You know, I think if there is a fresh perspective, If someone has already told ah version of a story, but there's something new to say or some you know some new insight, I think it can be worth pursuing. But I generally and most interested in finding and telling stories that someone has really hasn't dug into that much or you know maybe only...
00:29:20
Speaker
shed light on a portion of it. Um, I'll dig around, just see what, what, if anything's been written about it. If, if I feel like I'm in the clear, then, i mean, I just follow my curiosity. Really. I don't, I don't have a, a really solid strategy that, you know, like I check all the boxes, but I kind of just meander and trust trust my curiosity, follow the crumbs, so to speak, and kind of watch this picture unfold.
00:29:47
Speaker
um And if I really feel like this is a story I want to know more about, then I'll ah'll find out who to talk to and I'll i'll track them down. um you know, as a freelance writer, you get pretty good at figuring out how to get in touch with somebody. And in a story like this, i think as with many stories, but this, you know, this story took place now 30 years ago.
00:30:08
Speaker
So it was, you know, not, not exactly pre-internet, but pre-internet being like the center of everyone's life. And so the way the way this one worked was I found, i found like one or two people that were at or near the center of this web of interconnected people in this ballooning community.
00:30:33
Speaker
And as soon as I talked one person and learned what I could from them, I would have them connect me to other people. And you know, the more people you talk to the more the story opens up, the story begins to reveal itself and,
00:30:48
Speaker
um And you just keep tugging on those threads and and letting the the picture take shape and kind of you're you're learning the story as you go. And as you're formulating the pitch for for a story like this, and as a freelance writer, so much of that upfront research is it's very much unpaid and you're investing a lot of time in these things for something that might not be a certainty.
00:31:13
Speaker
But you do have to put a lot of meat on that bone for it to even be the least bit appetizing. for for an editor, an activist in this case. So how much do are you typically investing up front in that research to make sure the pitch is as cracking as possible?
00:31:28
Speaker
That's a good question. um i Again, i kind of I kind of just intuit where I need to stop. I mean, if I don't and don't stop myself, I'll just keep going. um And as I said earlier, I do really i really do trust that If I am grabbed by a story, then, you know, number one, a lot of readers are going to be too, but other editors will be, other publications will be. So I really put a lot of trust in my own instincts. And to a certain extent, I just know, like, if i if I'm digging into this story and I am finding stuff and I am getting access and
00:32:07
Speaker
the documents materialize and all of that in a way i don't really worry about whether or not it will pan out i just kind of start figuring out how it's going to pan out who's the right person to pitch who's the right publication because it's really just a matter of finding that match and and you know pitching is weird because like maybe an editor is having a bad day maybe the publication is already doing a similar story something like that so you can't ever really be sure but i kind of I mean, i don't know if I could put a percent on it, but I just do.
00:32:43
Speaker
I do enough to make sure of a couple of things. One is that there is a story that will unfold in front of me and I have access to the people in the documents that will you know reveal that story to me.
00:32:58
Speaker
And even if I haven't talked to all those people or seen all those documents, I know that they're there. I know that I can get to them. And then um the other thing, well, kind of related to that is just just that i i want to be able to show that I have talked to some people. So, like, it's not enough to say, I read this weird line on a New York Times story and I think it'll be great. How about we ah about we do it? Yeah.
00:33:22
Speaker
you know, that's not like, that's not enough. You have to be, you have to show that you've invested enough into it. And so I'm at least doing a couple of interviews with the central characters so that I can include quotes in the pitch. I could, I really like to write scenery. Like my pitches, i think,
00:33:45
Speaker
My strategy, you know, these days for the last several years has been making sure that I actually can write a scene, partly to show what my writing is like, partly to show that I have a scene and now I can write that.
00:33:57
Speaker
You know, at the after I write that scene, then i I tell the editor, okay, there's a glimpse of this story that you're going to get. First of all, don't you want to know more? Because I do And then saying, here's my plan for reporting.
00:34:12
Speaker
Here's who else I need to contact. Here's what I know. Here here are the things that I expect. This is like, I mean, you can't really fully know how a story is going to unfold when you haven't done all of the reporting. But you can say, here's kind of what I expect to find out.
00:34:29
Speaker
And here's, as I understand it, the basic arc of the story. And um if you can convey those things and and then you combine that with a little bit of luck and timing and the right write publication and editor, then I think you're pretty solid.
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's really helpful. Another thing, too, when you're having these pre-reporting or preliminary conversations with central figures, as a freelancer, it's particularly thorny in that you're talking to them and you're like, ah well, I hope to land this story somewhere. So you're like, there's no certainty yet when you're like petitioning them to spend some time with you.
00:35:11
Speaker
And how do you navigate those conversations when you're like, yeah, I want to report the story out, but like, i you know I don't have a publication for this yet, but like trust me, i'm working on it. Right. Well, there is a little bit of that trust. um I mean, I found this isn't true for everyone, but I found that generally speaking, people want to tell their story so you don't have to convince them too much.
00:35:33
Speaker
I mean, maybe some people aren't game for the amount of time you're going to ask of them, but and ah Starting out, like when you're when you haven't done long-form story before, that can be a little hard.
00:35:48
Speaker
But especially now that i I have some of that under my belt, like i when I email people or sometimes cold call them, i say, you know here's who I am.
00:35:59
Speaker
here are and and then I link to other stories that I've done so I can say, you know i know this is... for one thing, it's going to take a lot of your time. It's also ah potentially involving things that are maybe hard memories for you to talk about. And and maybe you're a little skeptical of sharing those. And I never press people on that from the get-go because you know i don't I don't want to feel entitled to tell someone else's story. But I do um ask them,
00:36:32
Speaker
for that opening and ask them for that trust and, and let them know that I, ah care about the story, that I care about them and how they feel. And that I always say, you know, I'm, I'm going to follow your lead basically. Yeah.
00:36:48
Speaker
if there's ever any point where you don't want to talk to me or about this particular element of the story, we can, we can pause on that. We can, so I just tell them like, I'm going to take this at your pace and, um show them other stories where I've, I've done similar kinds of things so they can see how I deal with that on the page. And like I said, people tend to want to tell their stories. So I've,
00:37:15
Speaker
nearly universally had success in that, you know, ah aside from very rare cases. Yeah, and the story, because it took place, you know, a few decades ago, and it's very kinetic and scene-driven, and a lot of that, you weren't there, so it was it's all through recreation and reporting.
Scene Recreation Techniques and Writing Challenges
00:37:38
Speaker
So when you're building scenes, recreating scenes, yeah how do you how best do you go about that? I'm a very visual person in my imagination. So as I'm talking to people, especially when they start telling me about a scene that whether I whether i expected this scene or whether it's just some gem that I had no idea about.
00:38:01
Speaker
When they're telling me, I'm really seeing it in my head and I'm actually, I'm kind of letting it unfold as this mind movie, you know, where like I kind of, I might i might add some details here and there in my own brain, which of course, you know, later you got to fact check that stuff. But um So I i really see scene come to life when I'm talking to people about it.
00:38:24
Speaker
And then especially when you have a scene that involves multiple people, you talk to all those people and you kind of triangulate what everything looked and felt and smelled like. But also when i when I reach that point and I know...
00:38:39
Speaker
that this scene is going to be in the story. I really try to get them, to get the person to see what I'm seeing, but from, from their more expert ah viewpoint. And I asked them to describe things to me and I say, like, like, I know this is, this is a weird level of detail. Like I get it, but what did the air smell like?
00:38:58
Speaker
What was the weather? Was it cloudy that day? Do you remember the tone of voice? Someone said this to you? And, and I asked them, i even asked them directly to, to, I say, okay, tell me everything you can about this scene and tell it to me like you're watching a movie because that's how I want the scene to feel. like you know Not that cinema is like the pinnacle of scene necessarily, but it's it's very vivid in its imagery and its sound and you know you can't get the smells in there. But
00:39:32
Speaker
I think it's a really good place to, a really good way to get people to think really visually and in a multi-sensory way about the thing that they experienced 30 years ago, which, you know, some of them are like, dude, this happened 30 years ago. i don't remember.
00:39:50
Speaker
And I said, I know, but try. I know. Like, just tell me anything you can think of. Yeah. So, yeah, it's just yeah getting them to to kind of open up in that way. I can totally totally relate. Yeah, it's um it sometimes they're they like, dude, like, why are you asking me this? I'm like, yeah, it's all in favor. Like, I'm like, if I was there right beside you as a bird on your shoulder, like, I wouldn't be asking this. I'd be just be scribbling all these details down. But since I wasn't there, like, I need you to be the eyes, ears, and nose for me. I need you to fill up the senses for me, man.
00:40:21
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. And I know i know for for me, so things that I tend to struggle with as on the reporting side of things, like I'm not particularly a fan of cold calling. I just, yeah, I don't like it. It makes me nervous.
00:40:35
Speaker
I'm not a very good public records person. Like, I'm just not super savvy in that regard. And there's a laundry list of things that I'm insecure about when it comes to this. But I wonder for for you, like, what...
00:40:47
Speaker
but like what do you yeah What do you struggle with? What are the what are the things that you that ah that sometimes give you pause? You're like, ah, this is a heavier lift for me than this other thing.
00:40:58
Speaker
there's There's an essay by Ray Bradbury. from which I took a title for my college column. I wrote a weekly column or bi-weekly and it was called driving blind.
00:41:12
Speaker
So I feel a little bit like that's what I'm doing all the time. Kind of driving blind and trusting things that are difficult for me. i you know, I really don't like cold calling either, mainly because there's that awkward,
00:41:25
Speaker
like 30 seconds where you're just like, hey, don't hang up Here's who I am. Here's what I'm trying to do. Like, I know you don't get it. But but also, i I try, if I can, to deal with that by when I've talked to other people and those people give me someone's number, you know, say this person doesn't really...
00:41:44
Speaker
do email or doesn't have an email address. Um, usually they'll talk to each other in the background behind the scenes. So, so typically people expect me, but I kind of in terms of public records and stuff, i I also, you know, it's not like I ever took a class on it or anything. So ah kind of just figure it out as I go and ive I've had pretty good luck with that, but I don't know, again, it's just,
00:42:07
Speaker
trusting like there there's stuff that i'm gonna stumble on and the thing is it's different for every story yeah yeah um i think i i can't i can't remember who who said this but uh there i think there was a novelist who was you know were probably had several novels under their belt and writing another one they're just like you know every time you write you every time you start a new novel you don't know what the hell you're doing. You're just starting fresh. Like you would think that having the other things under your belt would would help you, but it doesn't necessarily because each story is its own thing. It brings about its own obstacles.
00:42:47
Speaker
its own needs. It has its own idiosyncrasies. Um, who you are in that moment is different from who you are telling a different story. So you really have to, you have to just open yourself to the story and kind of see what obstacles it's putting in front of you and, and figuring out your way around them or conceding the loss when you can't, when you can't get ah a certain threat, you're pulling a thread and it's just, it's not coming or just a,
00:43:16
Speaker
that it ends and separates from the entire tapestry. Yeah, this past weekend yeah with ah Susan Orlean echoed exactly what you were saying. like She's written a bunch of books. She's been on the show, of course, a few times. And you would think you would have that having written those books, yeah it would make writing forthcoming ones and long articles easier.
00:43:39
Speaker
but But it doesn't, to your point. And her big thing is, and I think this is true, if if you've done it enough, the only thing that you do carry from one project to the next is like,
00:43:49
Speaker
all right, I've been here before, I've felt this before, and I've finished before. and That's about it. And then that gives you the confidence to least proceed in the face of unwavering uncertainty and certainly insecurity.
00:44:02
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It's really just a matter of, i mean, the first time you do anything, it's just like, can I do this? Is this possible? i don't know I don't even know what's in my tool belt, let alone how to use it. But as you go along, you...
00:44:18
Speaker
but what you really have is you have those tools and you have the expertise to, to use them. And, you know, so, so I'm, and I've also been like mostly a ah lifelong martial artist and there's just a lot of,
00:44:35
Speaker
foundational skills you have, you know, like you you learn how to do a kick or a punch a throw or joint lock or something. And, you know, when you when it comes to, say, sparring or just like kind of a self-defense situation, you know you don't know the outcome, but you know that you have the tools to use.
00:44:53
Speaker
And i kind of feel like, you know, writing is is less... physically threatening, but um it's it's got its own obstacles too. And you know that you have the confidence that you have the tools, you have the confidence that you can finish something, even when you start hyperventilating about it. um You just take take some breaths and get through it.
00:45:15
Speaker
when i was speaking with jonah and um you know i asked him you know just on his side of the table like what it's you know from the first draft and what needs to be work on and then yeah that gap between first draft second draft and revision and he said that working with you here and you guys have worked together in the past was this was one of the best pure revisions that he had ever come across from that first draft to the to the second one and really commended you on just the way you leaned into that revision part So when you're thinking of revision and the rewrites, ah just what is your headspace as you approach that next phase, very important phase of a long article?
00:45:54
Speaker
Well, first, I just have to say thanks to Jonah for for saying that. That's really nice. Yeah. And I should say that Jonah is a masterful editor. he's He's so good at what he does, so smart, and just really insightful and kind of and incisive about ah knowing exactly what to do with a piece. And kind of just starts with I mean, for one thing, you know the story, right? you've You've spent a lot of time with it. You know all the elements that you've brought to it.
00:46:29
Speaker
You know some things that maybe you left out. And Jonah was really, really good about being clear about what this story needed. So um there was actually a ah draft that he didn't see. I don't think he might've seen it, but um so I initially was working with Sayward and the first draft I sent her,
00:46:51
Speaker
after a mad frenzy of weeks of just pouring words out of me. I think I gave her a draft of like, it was over 19,000 words. And and and i was like, here you go. Sorry, I'm off to Asia for a couple of months. And honestly, I didn't i haven't even told...
00:47:11
Speaker
Sayward or Jonah this, but I didn't i had didn't even actually read that draft from front to back. like i Obviously, I wrote it, so I read all of it. But I never sat down and read it all the way through. And so I i think probably the only people who did were Sayward and my wife. So I don't think Jonah saw it. and and I ended up kind of in the back of the queue and and some months later Sayward came back to me and just said, ah well, just cut 5,000 words and then get back to me.
00:47:38
Speaker
and And so I did. And I think that that's the version that Jonah came to um when we started working together. And he he had several things to tell me, but I think the the most crucial piece of advice or directive that he gave me was just like a lot more quotes. Like we need more quotes. because i for whatever reason, I was hesitant to to have a lot of quotes in it, and I was just sort of narrating from from this like kind of above, you know, distanced remove. And i think that i had i had resisted writing any quotes that weren't in that chronological time frame that didn't come from 1995 or 1996. Like, i i I don't know why, but I just didn't feel like I wanted to have
00:48:27
Speaker
quotes that obviously came from the modern day reflecting on that time. And that was just kind of silly. And and Jonah got me over that. And so once he he was just like, a lot more quotes, we need to get really close to these characters and feel the emotional journey that they're having in addition to this physical one that I was describing.
00:48:44
Speaker
So I really took that to heart. And I was like, all right, do you want some quotes? I'm going to give you way more quotes than than we need. And knowing that, you know, we would cut ones that weren't necessary. But So I really took that to heart, added a lot of quotes that that I think helped. And he was also, one of the other things he said, it was just like, i don't think this, I think at that point, the story was 14 and a half thousand words.
00:49:08
Speaker
He's like, I don't know if this needs to be any longer than about 10,000. So just keep cutting, cutting, cutting everywhere you can. And i was also, you know, I mean, it definitely took a lot of thought and times it it was hard, but i I was kind of merciless and just cutting in whole whole entire sections and chunks out of that draft.
00:49:31
Speaker
things that were more tangential threads that I liked and, you know, in a bigger, longer version of this story, say a book, it it would be relevant, but he helped me really think about keeping the pace fast and moving forward and drawing the reader forward at all times and kind of leaning into it.
00:49:50
Speaker
So i just kind of went with it. I i guess, you know, it was a combination of knowing my story well and having a really good editorial direction. What was the biggest challenge for you in in writing and reporting this piece out?
00:50:03
Speaker
There were a few things. One was just, you know, there there was some documentation. in the sense that um there was a whole a whole investigation and report on this balloon shoot down.
00:50:18
Speaker
And it's like ah an 81-page report led by a Russian, translated by the State Department. So I had access to that. I had access to a bunch of um responses to this report and and things that people had written in the aftermath of of this tragedy that I could read.
00:50:39
Speaker
but Most of the you know kind of the central experience of the main protagonists of this story, Mike Wallace and Kevin Breelman, and their chase crew, Annette Hochler, Vic Frankel, um and Martin Sturzinger, I was all really coming from their memory. so And given that this was 30 years ago, as I said, like a lot of people, know, I was really just pulling details out of them and asking so much of them.
00:51:09
Speaker
And what I found occasionally challenging was the fact that, you know, people would remember things differently or there would just be holes in one person's memory and maybe another person would fill it out and kind of trying to, again, sort of triangulate what actually happened.
00:51:27
Speaker
And, you know, what's the what's the real like likeliest version of the story or the or likeliest fact here? And really making those experiences come to life without any other documentation other than people's memories and things they were telling me.
00:51:43
Speaker
That was a little difficult at times. I mean, probably the hardest part of the story for me to write was was the aftermath.
Ethical and Investigatory Challenges in Storytelling
00:51:52
Speaker
um When I got into, you know, so the balloon had been shot down, a couple of people were held in military detention, the chase crew is racing to get them out of Belarus, like all all of those actions were pretty straightforward. But once the investigation had been done and the report came out and the whole ballooning community was responding,
00:52:18
Speaker
do this report and arguing about it and feeling like it was like there was a cover up and there was a lot of things omitted from the report. There were inaccuracies. There were just just things that offended people.
00:52:29
Speaker
There was this whole like saga almost where ah Mike Wallace and Kevin Breelman, you know, went to the National Aeronautical Association and and basically like demanded that Belarus be barred from all competition around the world for five years and and all these things. Like there was just this whole segment that I didn't really know how to write because i had so much information and I had basically, as I think I said earlier, like I, i was reporting a magazine story, but it it kind of ended up being in terms of what I got.
00:53:03
Speaker
Like I got a book's worth of stuff. And so it's, figuring out what to put in that was interesting and engaging, what to leave out so that it was also you know still clear what happened and and I could tell the story. and that And that was why my first draft was so long, I think, is that I really got into the weeds with the the investigation and the and the counter response and and all of that from the ballooning community. And I really relied on Jonah a lot actually for, for cutting that down and helping me understand what's interesting. Cause I'm like, Hey, I mean, everything's interesting to me. Right. So what do you want to read? Like, if you're not me, like i need some distance from this. What do you want to read?
00:53:43
Speaker
So I think those were some of the, the most difficult things for me is kind of parsing it down into like the most crucial ah elements of the story. in ah So when you're in rewriting and revisions, you know what do you like to have in place so you can get a good sense of where the story's going?
00:54:02
Speaker
Well, i I think one thing that is important to say that that might be a little different for me than some other atavist writers is... I think I had maybe something like five months between when I filed my first draft with Sayward and then, and then I did kind of cut it down, but there was ah decent chunk. It was like maybe even seven or eight months.
00:54:28
Speaker
to the time where I did a rewrite for Jonah. And so there was a lot there was a big gap there. And, you know, the story was in me. The story's always living in me in that time too, knowing that I would have to work with it. But especially given that gap,
00:54:44
Speaker
i I really, um in addition to obviously rereading what I had written, I took the time to go back over all of my notes.
00:54:55
Speaker
and um And I do this before I do my first draft too, but I i had organized all of my notes, all the transcripts. and everything into kind of thematic chunks or, um you know, chunks that dealt with specific people, specific parts of the story.
00:55:10
Speaker
And I kind of went over those. I went over my outline that I had yeah um given to Sayward, and she took notes on that, gave me notes back on that.
00:55:23
Speaker
And so I kind of just re went through everything. And um in some cases i I ended up checking in with people because ah one of my big tasks in the the main rewrite was adding quotes. And I did have a lot of quotes ready to use from my initial interviews, but, you know, I just kind of checked back in with people to, you refresh some things and get a little bit get a little bit of new information. The track of the story, the overall arc of the narrative didn't really shift all that much.
00:55:56
Speaker
I did move around things a little bit here and there and and took one piece that was kind of two-thirds of the way through and made that my ending.
00:56:09
Speaker
But other than that, like the the vision really... held through all the way and so i was mainly just kind of mercilessly cutting things that that i felt and that jonah felt maybe wouldn't be suited to this particular version of the story and i i went through and kind of just really considered what is the meat of this story what is its core where do we really want to follow and and not divert readers on um these other tangents that, frankly, are are really fascinating. and And some of these were scenes that I i loved, some of my favorite ones.
00:56:45
Speaker
You know, there was a lot of a lot of that extra material that I had to cut back on. And ah kind of the way that I approached that was, you know, I had so much material, I really kind of accidentally, maybe subconsciously on purpose, was reporting essentially a book, and now I'm writing a magazine story.
00:57:06
Speaker
And so every time I cut a big chunk, I would say, okay, that's for the book, so no worries. you know It was really easy to cut that out. But yeah, other than that, again, it really wasn't there wasn't like a specific, organized, preconceived strategy. i kind of just I went with the story that I knew.
00:57:23
Speaker
um i really believe in learning your story and and really listening to it and courting it almost so that there's there's really this deep relationship between storyteller and story so that as you're honing it, as you're carving chunks away, maybe adding pieces here and there, you you already know it. It's living within you. You know, the story is alive and you're responding to it.
00:57:47
Speaker
You're responding to its needs because you've you've learned it, you've listened to it. And it was just a continuation of that process and taking Jonah's really excellent notes and taking them to heart and just really going for it.
00:57:58
Speaker
And it it kind of reminds me of that story of um Michelangelo and the statue of David. I'm sure you've heard this. I don't know if it's apocryphal, but someone asked him, like, how do you how did you create this amazing, beautiful piece of artwork?
00:58:13
Speaker
um It just so appears to be flawless and it's just so alive and human. He said, well, I started with a chunk of marble and I just took away everything that wasn't David. And that's kind of that's kind of how I approached the story, too, is, you know, what are the parts that...
00:58:28
Speaker
that aren't this story in this telling. Yeah. At the heart of the story too, is, you know, this tragic, uh, this tragic event of this balloon being shot down. And,
00:58:40
Speaker
Inherent in in journalism, as you've been in this long enough too, things can feel sometimes exploitative or, you know, an extraction-y. You know, I was wrestling with that with the Prefontaine book.
00:58:52
Speaker
and And I just wonder, for like for you as as a reporter, you know, here you here we are, some here are these these elements central to the story that are that are tragic and we're reliving trauma for some people. And then, you know, we're aiming to craft something that is informative but also artistic and entertaining.
00:59:11
Speaker
And, you know, at the heart of that are these real people. And then like our name is on the story. And in a way, it advances our career. And we're kind of benefiting from that. And I've thought about that a lot in the last couple years, ah certainly over the last 20, but definitely last two years has really struck me. And I just wonder, you know, for you, how do you wrangle with that or dance with that feeling?
00:59:31
Speaker
You know, and I know that inherently storytelling, especially journalism, where you're you're telling other people's stories that that you're not involved in, it's inherently a little bit exploitative and and a little bit of voyeurism.
00:59:45
Speaker
And you kind of just have to accept that. But as I think I said before, i make sure that I let... the people whose story this is take the lead. And I really work to make sure that they trust me and that I'm not flippant about their emotional experience. And, you know, I let them guide the conversation. I mean, i when i approach an interview, I honestly don't really even think of it or call it an interview. It's just a conversation.
01:00:15
Speaker
And i might write down questions that I know i want the answers to eventually. But I'm not really, i mean, I hardly even consult that. And I'm certainly not reading off this list. So I just start talking human to human.
01:00:27
Speaker
that That's the thing is you have to remember that, yes, you're a reporter, you're a storyteller, but you're a human first. And the person you're talking to on the other end of the line, if it's on a phone call or in person,
01:00:40
Speaker
sitting across from you is also a human being and you have to relate to them in that way first and not as a character first because if you if you start thinking of people as characters, they become flat. they have this There's this inherent separation between you and them and and that that kind of cuts off your empathetic powers and your your compassion.
01:01:02
Speaker
And, you know, I've really come to believe in story, in the purpose of story in general. And so um i think it's worth it, you know, like, again, as long as other people agree to have you tell their story, it's worth it because the reason I do this isn't because it's necessarily lucrative. It's because I feel like, you know, I've tapped into something that that is connected to the gifts that I bring to this world, the particular being that I am, ah the particular storytelling that I know that I can do.
01:01:37
Speaker
There's a lot of beautiful storytellers, but you are ultimately the the storyteller that you are. And you have to trust in story as a medium, as a way to connect to the human condition and to connect people to human experiences outside of of what they've done. So it's really important, you know, even when there's tragedy involved, when there's something hard to write about, to talk about, to ask somebody to relive, it serves a larger purpose. And I i really believe that that it's so worth it.
01:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's really well put, and I think it's just, ah yeah, it's great hearing reporters and journalists like yourself and how you think through that.
01:02:19
Speaker
as I think the more and more you do it, the more and more you have to really like yeah ah think about the the fairness and the trust aspect ah of it, that these are people and not just information wells for our extraction. Yeah.
01:02:35
Speaker
Right. Absolutely. And, you know, with this particular story, there's there are two people who are killed in a ballooning event, an important and prestigious one.
01:02:45
Speaker
And the thing about the ballooning community, this is true of many communities, um is that there they're so close. They're very, very close-knit group of people.
01:02:56
Speaker
And so it wasn't like just two competitors died. I mean, this is two people that... dozens, scores, hundreds of people love and know really well. And, you know, it wasn't just a couple of people also in the air with him who are their best friends who who are affected by this. It's an entire community. And, you know, when I've talked to people now, years later, and even when I've shared this story, I mean, it still hurts for people to remember that and relive that, but at the same time, it's um it's an emotional catharsis for them. And I feel that they appreciate it and they've told me they have.
01:03:34
Speaker
And a ah a little while ago, too, you were just talking about and organ ah reference to organizing things. And the more and more I'm doing this show, like the more and more I feel find people are real interested in how writers organize their shit.
01:03:51
Speaker
And it's so so best to access it for when it comes to to writing. And you so extending that to you, Nick, you know how do you organize your work as you settle down to write?
01:04:04
Speaker
ah A combination of intentionality and haphazard BSing my way through it. But ah um I think, I mean, where I start is I just i just have a ah folder on my desktop and everything goes into that. I have separate folders for each person that I speak with and that contains, you know, audio files and transcripts, things they've shared with me.
01:04:29
Speaker
The one thing I i really... think has been so crucial for me in this story and in others I've told is I always create a document of chronology. even though Even if I'm not telling the story exactly chronologically, um you know, this story is, i would say, largely chronological with a little bit of bouncing around between perspectives, but um I really need to make sure that I have a ah solid handle on the chronology. So I create a document And I'll make it as the the span of time that covers a story, kind of as big as I have access to, but I really focus on the span of the story that I'm i'm actually telling.
01:05:06
Speaker
And so i i write everything down when it happened, and then in a a story like this where things are taking place, in some cases on like an hourly basis, I really get pretty detailed in that.
01:05:18
Speaker
And that becomes... a really important reference because some of these timestamps and dates are so scattered throughout all my different resources and people I've talked to. And so that, that's probably one of the most crucial things that, that I have, but otherwise I just, as much as makes sense to my brain, I just organize my notes and, you know, I always have ah another document of,
01:05:43
Speaker
sort of a cast and sources document with contacts and who people are and how they relate to one another, that sort of thing. And then a document full love of just random notes and links to, you know, maybe old newspaper archives or or what have you.
01:06:01
Speaker
And a lot of people have, for their own personal taste, yeah their favorite part of the process being like some people just eat up the reporting and other people like that that's agony, but they really like the writing and vice versa.
01:06:13
Speaker
And just for you, where where do you feel most alive and engaged in this whole morass, this whole process? ah this i This might sound a little glib, but honestly, i love whatever part I'm i'm doing right now.
01:06:27
Speaker
i just Whatever moment I'm in, like i love I really truly love all aspects of the process. When I'm reaching out to people and talking to people and really discovering the story, that's so exciting.
01:06:39
Speaker
And I love that. and um I mean, I'm not inherently a phone talker, but like, I kind of have to become that. And I do love talking to people. So that's really fun for me.
01:06:51
Speaker
Discovering the story, you know, it's like, I think I referenced earlier, like you're learning the story, you're, you're courting it almost like a lover. And you're getting to know and it's really exciting. So I love that.
01:07:02
Speaker
Also when I'm writing, I i love the writing. like It's daunting, especially when you have ah the blank screen with the the cursor flashing in front of you, but that doesn't worry me too much either. And I just, I really love translating what's in me onto the page. And ah I'll answer that question in a different way. that The one thing that I really don't like is transcribing interviews.
01:07:28
Speaker
It's um very, and it's so time consuming, but also it's so important for me. Like I i do occasionally, i i don't even really want to admit this. I occasionally use the AI thing when it's like a super tangential, not not really important a conversation, but I know I want the words.
01:07:47
Speaker
in front of me. um I'll do that. I do also, um if I am not going to do it myself, I prefer actual other humans. And so I'll send it off to transcription service, um specifically Carol Lee Kidd transcription service, if anybody wants to to check her out they do really good work but i how much is that like typically cost-wise oh gosh i i don't remember off the top of my head i want to say like let's say a dollar a minute roughly but you know definitely approachable and again it's i never do that for my most central conversations because it's it's so important for me to hear things again that i i catch things that i
01:08:27
Speaker
missed the first time as I'm just, you know, in the conversation and maybe like thinking of my next comment or imagining the scene from me, know, and I kind of miss words here and there. So I kind of rediscover when I'm transcribing.
01:08:41
Speaker
um And then it it really reinforces that knowledge and and puts it into my brain in a solid way. So it's super important, but so time consuming. And um I don't love the actual action of it.
01:08:53
Speaker
The worst is when you're going through your transcripts. And I tend to use Otter, and then I go through, i used to do it faster, but I go at 1x speed to like clean it up. And to me, that is still takes a long time, and I am hearing everything, but I don't have to and risk the carpal tunnel syndrome of the typing ah ah constantly. um Yeah, and the worst is when you know you're going through a transcript, and you're like, ah, damn it, why didn't I follow up there? like That was a good point to get them to expand more. and you know that you you don't have like endless time to go back to these people, because they're, as I've experienced, sometimes they might die, up or right yeah, like if you're working with like older people, but um hell, even younger people too, you never know, but they're also, like their patience with each successive phone call starts to get ah ah eroded away, and you're like, oh God, like I have nothing more to say to you, why do you keep calling me?
01:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I mean, i i do I definitely make notes as I'm transcribing too, and I'm like, ah, yeah, yeah follow up on that. I i didn't ask and should have. I wasn't paying attention. And it's funny you mentioned, I shouldn't say funny, but that you mentioned you know the possibility of people dying while you're reporting. There's ah another story I was working on some years ago, and I don't mean this to sound humorous, but it's just like one of those absurd things that...
01:10:14
Speaker
I spoke to someone. i had an opportunity to do a really long in-depth phone call, but i was like, no, i'll let's talk in person. I'll drive up to Colorado. We'll hang out for a couple of days and all that.
01:10:24
Speaker
And a couple days later, he died. And yeah as I was kind of blown away, but that's what happened. Same story. A different guy. I ended up talking to Central to the story.
01:10:37
Speaker
um I talked to him. I did actually do a phone call um and recorded it. And then i think I called him one more time. And then again, he and then he died. So it's like, I don't know if I should keep going with this story.
01:10:49
Speaker
Yeah. Dangerous for people for me to tell it, apparently. Nick Davidson, the angel of death. yeah It's a strange thing. Yeah, I don't. So get what you can while you can.
01:11:01
Speaker
For sure. and no you know as you've been doing this for several years, what would you identify as something that you're you know you're much better at today than you were five years ago or even 10 years ago?
Trusting Intuition in Writing
01:11:13
Speaker
That's a good question. i i think I'm better at trusting myself. um I know I mentioned that earlier, but it really is huge for me, trusting myself, trusting my intuition. Even more important than that, trusting the story. I've come i've come to believe that, like i've I've sort of referred to this earlier, but like I've come to believe in in the story itself as like,
01:11:34
Speaker
an entity, you know, and it's, I'm a storyteller and it's a story and, and we usually think of hunting stories and looking for ideas, but I kind of feel like it's the other other way around, like stories hunt the storyteller and I'm, I'm just pray and like before I know it, I'm shot with an arrow and this thing has grabbed me.
01:11:53
Speaker
And then, you know, to kind of change the metaphor a bit, then you kind of do this courtship and, and, and, So i've I've come to trust the story, like what the story has, and you know, and and I don't mean to get like weird about it, but the story chooses as the storyteller as its yeah channel to be birthed into the world. So when a story grabs me and chooses me, I trust that.
01:12:16
Speaker
I've gotten a lot better at that. But practically speaking, I've gotten better at, I've gotten a lot better at pitching because I understand myself as a writer and how I want to,
01:12:27
Speaker
present what I know about the story. And I, I feel like I better understand how to just give everything i have to it without making it super long and overloading the editor. But so just really going for it and knowing exactly what elements I want in a pitch to, to make it kind of unavoidably interesting.
01:12:46
Speaker
Um, I, I mean, I'm a better writer, you know, the more you write, the more you read, the better you can write. Even in this story, I'm i'm a better writer now than I was six months ago just because I worked on this story with Jonah Ogle's help. Like, he's he's amazing.
01:13:03
Speaker
I'm better now. um And i think I'm also better, more comfortable at interviewing. And like I said, I kind of, I know what I want to know. I'm more light on my feet, just kind of letting a conversation go where it goes, letting those things that you didn't know to ask for surprise you, you know, rather than kind of being rigid um with a list of questions and just kind of having a natural conversation, trusting that flow.
01:13:32
Speaker
It's like, it's kind of like, uh, Bruce Lee, when he created the, his new martial art, Jeet Kune Do, one of his principles was there are no fixed stances.
01:13:44
Speaker
So don't be rigidly in a certain position. Be light on your feet. Don't be, even as ah as a human, as a martial artist, but also as a storyteller, don't be caught on your heels, you know, and just like let let yourself adapt to the moment and and what's needed with this particular story.
01:14:03
Speaker
And I i love the that element of how the the story chooses you. And I think embedded in that, and this comes with time and maturity, is like early on you there is such a ah hustle to want to get traction, to make a name for yourself. And it's easy to be impatient.
01:14:23
Speaker
And ah ultimately, you like, you really need to surrender and have a certain measure of patience. to To learn, to get those skills, and to have maybe, and to leave yourself open to a story finding the right storyteller. And that can be so, it's such a ah wise way of thinking about it. And I really love that that ethos.
01:14:42
Speaker
But man, it can be really hard to surrender to that, especially when you're just like really, yeah really maybe struggling to get that that toehold that we all so desperately want. Absolutely, yeah.
01:14:54
Speaker
I mean, patience and surrender are ah really so key. And the other thing is, talking about success is, you know, I've struggled with this myself, is is comparing yourself to other writers and saying, why am i not why am I not at X place right now? And the answer to that is because you're not that person.
01:15:15
Speaker
yes your Your journey you're as a writer, as a human, isn't about them. um So what you can do is look to other people who are having success, people you you admire, and celebrate them to an extent. I think that any human being's success is all human success.
01:15:36
Speaker
um So don't get you know get beaten down and discouraged by someone else coming out with an amazing story that you didn't happen to do. I mean, get over it. Find your story, you know?
01:15:47
Speaker
so like I feel like... Nature doesn't make copies, only originals. And so everybody is original. and There's never been ah Nick Davidson before me. There's never been Brendan O'Meara before you.
01:16:01
Speaker
So nobody who's alive today, no human who has ever been alive in human history can tell you how to how to be successful in your way. you Only you have that map inside of yourself to to figure out how to successful.
01:16:17
Speaker
the storyteller that you are. Absolutely. Well, well Nick, as you as you know, I love bringing these conversations down for a landing by asking ah a recommendation for some kind for the listeners out there, and that's just anything you're excited about.
01:16:28
Speaker
ah So I just posed that to you. What are you ah excited about that you'd want to share with the listeners? there I mean, so many things, but I'll say, so there's a there's another podcast that I've been listening to for years called Living Myth Podcast.
01:16:44
Speaker
And it's ah the mythologist and storyteller, Michael Mead. And it's really beautiful. he He uses ancient myths, you know, these these most enduring human stories,
01:16:58
Speaker
to as a lens to understand the modern world that we live in today, which is a crazy place. There's a lot of a lot of things to orient oneself to in these times. But although these times are unique and in the specific way that they're unique, the human elements of them have been repeated over and over throughout history.
01:17:19
Speaker
you know, the this idea of like the collapse of society, for example. I would recommend listening to that. Really got me through, not only got me through, but really helped me mentally, psychologically, spiritually thrive in the midst of the COVID pandemic when that started and and ever since. So yeah, just this using old stories and the wisdom of the the ancient and modern poets and and trying to figure out and orient to this modern world. So that...
01:17:47
Speaker
I think is is something worth checking out. And also just, you know, touch the touch the earth. You know, like that connect with nature. That's super important in my life. and And I'm really blessed to have great, easy access to nature and to true wilderness living here in Santa Fe. And I know a lot of people don't have that, but whatever, whatever form of nature you've got, you know, like sit by a tree, breathe in the forest, center yourself. Like it's, that's so crucial to my wellbeing.
01:18:19
Speaker
So yeah i recommend that. Oh, I love it. Well, ah Nick, this was awesome. I'm so glad that we're able to touch base and talk about this incredible story you did for the Atavis and how you approach the work, which I think is really, really singular and inspiring. So just thanks for carving out some time and talking shop.
01:18:35
Speaker
Yeah, thanks, Vernon. I really appreciate you having me. It's been a lot of fun.
01:18:42
Speaker
Yes! Awesome! Wasn't that great? That was great. I thought it was great. Thanks to Jonah. Thanks to Atavis for continued partnership. I don't take it for granted. Magazine.atavis.com.
01:18:55
Speaker
Go subscribe. Thanks to Nick Davidson. NickGDavidson.com website. At NickGDavidson on Instagram. Great stuff. Like i said, no parting shot. This episode ran a little long.
01:19:08
Speaker
I'm going save that for another time.
01:19:13
Speaker
So that's where we're at. All right? Good. Very nice. Stay wild, CNEvers. And if you can't do, interview. See ya.