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The joy of rankings and demystifying SEO with Jan Barley
38 Plays1 year ago
Everyone who works in SEO loves to see ranking improvements, but a deep love of SEO goes so much deeper!
In this series of The Unititled SEO Podcast, our host Andrew Laws unravels what SEO means to professionals, where they have come from and where see SEO going in the future.
Joining Andrew for this episode is Jan Barley. Like many SEO professionals, Jan didn’t have a conventional route into the world of SEO. In this lighthearted and entertaining chat, Andrew and Jan celebrate the joy of success, and the learning opportunities of challenges and share wisdom from these experiences.
Visit Jan’s website - https://wolfheart.co.uk/
Find Jan on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/janbarley/
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Transcript
Introduction to Live Action Networking (LAN)
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, welcome back to the Untitled SEO podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lawes, and this is not quite like other SEO podcasts. In this season, which is season two of the podcast, we're doing LAN, and that stands for live action networking. I know it also stands for other things, but I'm going to just keep that, keep that to myself, although I have no told you.
Debunking SEO Professional Stereotypes
00:00:23
Speaker
Anyway, this has gone rambling off nice and early. So what is live action networking? Well, I know a lot of people who work in SEO. I know a lot of people in the creative industries. And I've worked with a lot of people in the creative industries and in SEO and digital marketing and various other things.
The Role of Networking in SEO Success
00:00:38
Speaker
And we all get along super well. But I'm very aware that from the public perception of SEO is sometimes still that we're either massive agencies who are charging 10,000 pounds a month or we're little individuals
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm certainly not little if you ever met me in
Meet Jan Barley
00:00:54
Speaker
person. Little individuals kind of just hiding away doing our own thing. But the truth is, the really good things happen with SEO when people in SEO talk to each other. And a big part of that is networking. Now, I have the privilege to know several other people in SEO here in Ipswich, but I've been branching out and I want to meet more people in SEO. So we're doing this season as, as I say, live action networking. So I'm inviting some people. I don't know massively well.
00:01:21
Speaker
I'm going to use the medium of the podcast to find out a little bit more.
Jan's Unexpected SEO Journey
00:01:25
Speaker
So to that end, I am honored to have Jan Barley with me today. Would you like to say hello, Jan? Hello. Hello to you and hello to everyone listening to the podcast. I've got to compliment Jan on something before we even kind of kick off on this, because this is probably going to be audio only of this podcast. But Jan, your headphones are perfectly colour matched to your top.
00:01:51
Speaker
It was all perfectly planned. Look, really, really nicely matched. Right. So something I'm always fascinated to know is whether people I'm speaking to and getting to know chose SEO or whether they fell into SEO. Now, just to put you at ease, I'm yet to find anyone, anywhere, even outside of the context of this podcast who aimed at SEO and found themselves there.
00:02:20
Speaker
What's your brief, what's your hero story, your origin story? My goodness, no, I definitely didn't choose it, that's for sure. I'll try and keep it as brief as I can. But in May 2020, I suddenly found myself very unexpectedly widowed. It was an accident, I was very sudden. At the time, we're in the middle of lockdown. I didn't have any work, I didn't have any income.
00:02:50
Speaker
I couldn't afford to stay
SEO Writing Challenges and Strategies
00:02:52
Speaker
where I was living without my partner. And I'm like, what on earth am I going to do? How am I going to survive financially? So in a long story short, I decided that writing was the way to go. So I started looking for writing jobs and landed a gig with a trading company.
00:03:12
Speaker
I'd been training in Forex for about three years, so I had extensive knowledge of the subject. And this company wanted a Forex writer, so it was perfectly matched. So I started writing, and the guy who was sort of working with me started to teach me about SEO.
00:03:33
Speaker
I did kind of know roughly what it was, but I hadn't really done any SEO writing or anything like that. So he started to give me some guidance and I picked it up so quickly. And within literally a matter of weeks, my content started ranking on page one on Google. So I found that super exciting.
00:03:55
Speaker
It's still what motivates so many of us in SEO. Just the buzz of that. It was crazy. I mean, the company had a fairly good domain authority. I think they were about 38 and they had a lot of writers. They had a lot of content. I think they were about a five-year-old company.
00:04:15
Speaker
But to get my content ranked on Google was amazing. I was unpublished at that point, so I was ghostwriting for the company. But I'm happy to say, over three years later, my content is still ranking on page one of that company. Wow. So anyway, I've been working for them for about four months and doing really well. And then one day, he asked me to write an article about Bitcoin. I'm like, what?
00:04:44
Speaker
Well, this is this is one of the biggest challenges of not just SEO, but writing in the context of SEO is being given subjects that we know nothing about. Exactly. How do you feel about that? Do you like that? I can see how I find it daunting sometimes if I find myself having to write about had to write about yacht chartering once. Now,
00:05:06
Speaker
This is not something I have any experience of. I've never chartered a yacht, Jan. I mean, I don't want to kind of shock you. And I've never driven a Bentley either. There's several things I don't know much about. So did you have experience of Bitcoin at this point? I mean, I bought a few
00:05:28
Speaker
cryptocurrencies in 2016, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. So I was kind of vaguely interested in cryptocurrencies, but mostly to try and make me a millionaire. I think my portfolio is worth about $300 at the moment, so it's not likely
Balancing SEO Tools and Creative Writing
00:05:43
Speaker
to happen. It's better going than a lot of people are going to crypto. Yeah, I mean, Bitcoin was reasonably easy to research because the kind of Bitcoin ethos is fairly transparent.
00:05:57
Speaker
Anyway, I wrote this article. The research was fairly overwhelming because it was a completely new subject, which I knew nothing about. And obviously with articles, you need to have accuracy. So I produced the article and the editor was overwhelmed. He said it was a really strong article, fantastic, well done. And subsequently I started being given more crypto related content.
00:06:27
Speaker
And I've been doing that for two years and I really, really love writing SEO content. To me, it's kind of like
00:06:38
Speaker
the sort of pleasure that someone would get who loves Suduco. I know what you mean. Somebody gets given a 50,000 piece puzzle at Christmas and needs to actually please. Exactly. I'm a massive problem solver and I love solving problems. So for me, SEO was kind of like solving a problem. The problem I had was the crypto industries
00:07:04
Speaker
There's a certain lack of transparency. So when I was researching particular projects, trying to find accurate information that I could write factual SEO content on was really challenging and remained challenging for the period that I worked in the crypto industry. But yeah, I mean, I fell into it.
00:07:28
Speaker
became a natural at it. And I kind of just seem to have the knack for it. Like, for instance, the last company I was working for, I used Surfer SEO, which is software that you put articles in and it throws up a lot of keywords and semantics, something like 60 or 80 keywords that you can filter into your article and it gives you a score.
00:07:51
Speaker
And you're aiming for an average of about a 75 plus score. And I would write my content outside of Surfer, then import it and then fine tune it. And what my editor was surprised about was that when I imported it, my score was usually in the kind of high sixties before I even started using Surfer SEO. It's not a theory of mine, it's a belief based on fact that
00:08:19
Speaker
If somebody's a good writer, they will naturally align well to any tools like Surfer or we use SEMrush because we love SEMrush.
00:08:28
Speaker
because if you are a good writer, you naturally know to research and cover all the angles of a project. Exactly. And the first one of the first and best writers, one of the freelancers I started working with many years ago who still works for me now, she actually still is contracted two days a week and she's a leading expert in hair care.
Building Authority in Competitive Fields
00:08:50
Speaker
So she writes, she writes for some magazines and
00:08:54
Speaker
So she's kind of a journalist first SEO second in order of how she learned, but that's such a brilliant way around. I think some people are in danger of using tools like Serf or SEMrush to write and write in the software with the aim of writing the perfect article, which you can do and it won't be human first. But if you can write and you enjoy the research, I mean, each time you mentioned talking about crypto,
00:09:24
Speaker
what really what keeps going around in my mind is at the time you were writing about crypto, it was phenomenally competitive. But in an industry that was not cooperative, you know, between, between sellers or between whoever had a stake in crypto in the success of Bitcoin, they didn't speak to each other. So it must have been almost impossible to build authority by building relationships. So your only option really must have been and correct me if I'm wrong,
00:09:52
Speaker
to write very long articles. Would that be fair? Yeah, that is very true. I mean, I, I would probably research probably six, seven, eight or more different articles online. I'd go through the company's white paper. I just, any piece of information, it was, it blew my brain several. Sometimes I'd stare at the screen and think,
00:10:19
Speaker
How am I going to do this? Because it just seemed an impossible task. But yeah, it was challenging. And the last company I worked for, an average article was about 4,000 words. Wow. And I wrote one particular article, which was kind of a guide, really, it should have been an ebook, which was almost 8,000 words on trading psychology.
00:10:44
Speaker
And I'm happy to say that is our number one page Google page one. Right. This is, this is a real sorting out the week from the chaff type thing. When you have to write an article like that, especially for writers, some writers will just blanch at that and just say, I'm just not going to take that on. But my experience, if you can find writers who enjoy
00:11:06
Speaker
the research phase. And I think SEO agencies with their internal writers and with freelancers, you should give your writers that opportunity. You shouldn't give tight deadlines on good articles. It's the time equivalent of paying peanuts, get monkeys, you know, give no time
00:11:23
Speaker
Well, junk in, junk out is one of the phrases that we use. I agree. I mean, I've been a writer since I was a child. My headmistress used to make me read my essays in front of school assembly and I was like cripplingly shy. So it was really challenging. But I never believed I could make a living as a writer. So I kind of fell into the whole thing, really. But I see writing as an art.
00:11:52
Speaker
I don't see it as just stringing words together. For me, it's like a sculpture. You take something that is very raw and you shape it and form it. And I have a really stringent process for everything that I do right from the research down to my editing process. It's really stringent. And that creates an article that has really good flow. And if you don't have flow, nobody wants to read it.
Impact of Google's Updates on Content
00:12:20
Speaker
So everybody who thinks you can create AI articles and just bang it up onto your website, yeah, you might be able to do that. You might get ranked, but that doesn't mean people are going to read it. And eventually, if people aren't reading it, you'll lose your ranking, especially the way Google is starting to evolve now.
00:12:40
Speaker
Absolutely. And if if an article isn't human first, doesn't matter if it does rank immediately, it's not going to rank long term because it was difficult to read Google, Google, because they've got or now GA for on everybody's website. Yeah, then they know if people are the people that they're delivering from search results to your website aren't sticking around to read it, especially if it's a 4000 word article and the average time on sites like 20 seconds, Google's, you know, it's
00:13:08
Speaker
It seems really obvious to me that Google's going to look at that and go, well, we ranked it high, but people aren't sticking around long enough. So we clearly made a mistake. And that's when you start to see it articles nosedive. Google is value first, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It's having a conversation with someone just before we started recording. And we were talking about I used to joke when I did public speaking to introduce people to the concept of SEO. I used to joke that
00:13:35
Speaker
Google really wants is for you to make the web a better place. But it's become less of a joke the more times I say it because it's kind of true and not in a big brother type way but
00:13:47
Speaker
good practice online reflects good practice offline. Do we even talk about offline and online anymore? It's just the world, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And I think the helpful content update that they rolled out on the 14th of September, that really caught a lot of people out. I've followed several kind of leaders in SEO. Is it Charles?
00:14:13
Speaker
Charles float is it? I've gotten his name. My brain's gone. I know who you mean. I'm just looking up Charles float because he's it's not, I'm not sure if it's the person who I'm thinking of, but
00:14:33
Speaker
There is somebody with a similar name who isn't one of the most. And Dr. Marie Haynes. They're really good at keeping up to date and it's really good to follow those. I haven't heard of Dr. Marie Haynes. See, this is why networking is really important. Yeah, she's got a YouTube channel and Twitter account. She's got a lot of followers. Yeah, not heard of her. See, value in SEO pros talking to each other. Exactly.
00:15:02
Speaker
And the thing is, if you know, I mean, I've got an affiliate site that I'm building of my own and it's very embryonic. I started it two years ago and literally last year I didn't do a single thing on it. So obviously it had declined. But I picked it back up again late July.
00:15:21
Speaker
And traffic was starting to build up and the helpful content was like a vertical wall. It just crashed literally the day of the helpful content. It just crashed. I got 47 articles at the time. So I digested everything in the helpful content and then went through all 47 articles.
00:15:45
Speaker
and basically adjusted and upgraded and just took out stuff that wasn't relevant anymore. I also had a plugin that gave you the
00:15:57
Speaker
a publishing date so that if you wrote an article two years ago and you updated it today, it would show today's date. And in the helpful content, that was one of the things that Google was penalizing. So I immediately removed that. We've taken a different approach on that. Found an article, an article, a plug-in called WP last updated, I think it is. And it doesn't change the publish date.
00:16:21
Speaker
Because I think for transparency, showing that you wrote an article four years ago is good. But what this WP last updated, I think that's what it's called, does is it puts another little line underneath the published date saying last updated. So you can have an article, because I think this is a real human first
Human-Centric Content for SEO Success
00:16:42
Speaker
thing. You can have an article that when someone lands on it and go, OK, that was written four years ago. But they could then look and go, well,
00:16:48
Speaker
It was updated five months ago. So it becomes a human first, very positive signal. But what this plugin also does, and I'm yet to know how useful this is, is it also includes that as a rich snippet or in schema code. So that Google theoretically can see that the article might be years old, but it is updated.
00:17:08
Speaker
And we've got, it's one of those, it's one of those low risk, low effort SEO things. And I'm slightly wary of low effort SEO things, because it harks back to a time where everyone thought SEO was about these tips and tricks and hacks, which it never has been. But that sort of fits in with the way I see the world of SEO, that Google just wants to know that things are kept up to date. We did a case study on the SEO website where
00:17:35
Speaker
A client who we started working with had 400 plus articles on the site and they're all written by consultants. I can say who it is because it's a public case study. There's a HR consultancy called MatHR. And all the articles are written by consultants. They really know what they're talking about. They really do. They're brilliant. But we could spot quite a lot of holes going through content analysis and we've built sort of a workflow for this now.
00:18:00
Speaker
So over a long period, we updated five, maybe six articles or gave recommendations to them to update five or six articles a month for God must have done it for 18 months. Their traffic went nuts. Some of these articles are ancient. If we found ones that were like, here's the update for the budget in 2017, we probably not bother with that. But anything that was evergreen, we just sort of did an assessment of it and looked at it and went, right, is this still right? Is this still correct? Because ultimately,
00:18:28
Speaker
That's all Google wants. When people click the links in Google search results, they want the person to go, hey, Google did a good thing because I like this article I'm now reading. I got all a bit excited there about schema code and rich snippets. I follow Neil Patel and he says that updating age content is as powerful, if not more powerful than creating new content.
00:18:56
Speaker
He has an entire department in his company that only updates content. That's all they do. It makes total sense. It's like Wikipedia. You wouldn't write a page on Wikipedia and then just let it rot.
00:19:12
Speaker
You know, I'm sure there's someone who must go through adding the dates of death for people and stuff like that, because it's always like really up to date. But we know how much Google loves Wikipedia. Wikipedia is always at the top. Yeah. For everything, everything forever. So, you know, look at what Wikipedia are doing. Actually, probably don't, I'm not going to say copy that.
00:19:33
Speaker
Have you tried editing articles or adding to articles in Wikipedia? No. Very, very tough going. I think that would be really hard. I love editing articles. I did a fair amount of that for the last company I worked with. And some of the articles were so badly written. You think, why would anybody want to read this? One, it's inaccurate. Two, the grammar and the punctuation is appalling. I know Google isn't
00:20:04
Speaker
manner, you know, assessing whether you're a fantastic writer, but if it's poorly written, it's not going to get read. They kind of are, though. Not in a way that, you know, the Yoast, the Yoast plugin in WordPress says, I'm not, I'm not arguing with you, Janice. Yeah, no, no, no. Just sort of exploring this. The Yoast, the Yoast SEO, oh dear me, the Yoast SEO plugin. Yeah. Those two words are too close to the name of my own company. I used that plugin.
00:20:33
Speaker
cracking plugin really good. And in that, one of the assessments they make is for the flash reading index, how readable text is. And it's not that Google is doing the same thing. I think it's Yost being quite clever and saying, your article has to be easy to read.
Freelancing and Creative Freedom
00:20:51
Speaker
Now, the way Google will probably be judging that is just how long people are spending on the page, how far down they're scrolling, and so on and so forth. So yeah, you kind of do have to be a good writer.
00:21:03
Speaker
But it all depends how good the other writers in your niche are. And if the other writers in your niche are terrible and you're only slightly better, you're still ranked. You and I, I think both come from the same place of writing should be excellent. It should be brilliant. I think the reality is people can be only just better than terrible. The problem comes
00:21:29
Speaker
when your competitors realise what you're doing and they up the game. So then you have to write a little better. So they write a little better. So why not just start off by being the absolute best there is. I agree. A far larger margin before people catch up with you. I agree. But in my experience, recently, it's
00:21:51
Speaker
I can put this delicately. There's no way of putting it delicately. Some of the companies I've worked for have been, it just needs to be good enough. And for me, that's not acceptable. It's not satisfying as a creative either. I don't want to be acceptable. I want to be the best it's possible to be. And
00:22:12
Speaker
If I can't do that, that's my creativity stifled. Yeah. And sense of pride, you know, when I, when I turn in work, if I'm not proud of it, I don't want to turn it in. So we say we have a dear listener, sorry, I haven't addressed a listener for the listener. Sorry, we're getting carried away. I know from private conversations that, you know, something happened that
00:22:39
Speaker
made you readdress whether you wanted an actual job or whether you wanted to be freelance. And I can see now that you've explained that a bit further, that yeah, if you're freelance, you can turn down the jobs you don't want, unless you like really need to buy food desperately. I do, but I still won't compromise. You know, I've had a pretty rough experience this year. And it's really showed me what's important.
00:23:10
Speaker
And for me, it's about, I know I do a good job and I know I can do the best job. Um, but if I'm not valued and appreciated, it becomes really challenging for me. And maybe, you know, maybe I'm looking for validation, but to me, it's like if you were a decorator and you were going in to decorate someone's house and you went away knowing you hadn't done your best job.
00:23:41
Speaker
you wouldn't feel good. And I just think good writers are, especially with the blooming chat GBT and all the AI writers that are springing up on the internet. I mean, there's one, can I name them? Yeah, sure. Content at scale. I had a look at their website. They've changed a little bit since I last looked.
00:24:07
Speaker
but they were clearly targeting agencies, almost to the point where they were saying, don't waste money on writers. We can do this for you for $250 a month. And, you know, $250 might be what someone pays a writer to do an article. So, and they, I don't know whether they've had complaints or something's changed, but they're not saying that anymore. It's because we all know that Google largely ignores AI generated content.
00:24:34
Speaker
But will it forever? Because these AI writers are going to get better and better. Oh, they can get as good as they want. Google's got more money than them, though. So who's going to be better at detecting it? Yeah, good point. Going back to you, I like pulling at the thread of creativity when I speak to anyone in this podcast or other podcasts I do. And I have friends in the industry who have left good agency jobs
00:25:02
Speaker
because they felt their creativity and their integrity was compromised by an edict that came from higher up. I mean, probably half the people I know who are now freelance. It's sad. But what then happens is they get the opportunity to be as excellent as they want. And that might not be commercially, immediately rewarding. But ultimately, we live in a
00:25:27
Speaker
We live in a fairly privileged society and this is why you and I have the opportunity to talk about creative integrity and things because we have the luxury of living in a society where we can. So I think that becomes incredibly important.
Nurturing Creativity in Writing
00:25:43
Speaker
I think we are all creative beings.
00:25:46
Speaker
And some people think they're not creative. I think it was you I spoke to about The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Was it you I was talking to? Yeah, you did mention it when we last spoke outside of podcast land. It's a brilliant book. It's designed for anybody creative, writer, photographer, painter, anybody that does anything creative. And it really teaches you
00:26:13
Speaker
how to access that creativity. And it was only recently I realized that my creativity had been stifled and it was why I felt dead inside. And subsequently I've been working on bringing that back out, just free flowing my writing. I took a bit of time off, didn't want to write a single word for a couple of months. I just hated writing all of a sudden. I'm like, what's going on? I've loved writing my entire life.
00:26:42
Speaker
But I've been doing a few sort of articles on Medium and LinkedIn and things like that and finding that voice of writing for no specific reason other than as an outlet for the creativity. And it's opening me back up again. And it's really lovely. It feels like part of me coming back home.
00:27:04
Speaker
I think it's crucial and I don't write as much as I used to because now I sort of manage the process rather than actually writing myself. But I've started, I've recently rediscovered the joy of learning how to write new types of things. So I'm going to show you something on the camera. So sorry, podcast people. I've been learning how to make joke webs. You know about joke webs? What's that?
00:27:29
Speaker
A joke web, I'm reading a book, which I'll link to in the show notes, because I can't remember what it's called. And it's written by a lady who was one of the joke writers for shows like Have I Got News For You? Yeah. And the whole point of the book is, you can write jokes even if you don't think something's funny. And it's a topic that you know nothing about. So her job for a long time was, quick, in the next 24 hours, we need 10 jokes on things that have happened in the news today.
00:27:58
Speaker
So she developed a method that she calls joke webs, a bit like mind maps, but kind of going in a different end point. And I'm not a comedian.
00:28:12
Speaker
I'm giving, actually I say that, I'm in a Toastmasters competition tonight giving a humorous speech but it's not my reason, it's not my thing but what I've learned is that learning about a new style of writing is incredibly exciting. I wrote a romance novel, I've written two and part of the reason for doing that was to write something
00:28:35
Speaker
that was so far away from the things I write about at work and the style that was so far away. And I get a real kick out of it. So yeah, feed the beast. You have to feed that creativity.
Conversational SEO Writing
00:28:44
Speaker
I think you can get stuck because in cryptocurrencies, there's a certain tone of voice. The average age in the crypto industry is something like 25 to 34. Wow. And I'm not 30, 25 to 34. It's just a memory for me.
00:29:02
Speaker
But I realized that actually, although I did the job and I could do the job well, it wasn't truly my voice. My voice is much more free and open, and I'm trying to get that voice back out, having written in one industry for so long.
00:29:22
Speaker
is more trickier than I imagined. I mean, I'm just writing an article today about the mistakes that people make when they bring a rescue dog home. And that's great because, one, I love dogs, too. I can see little tails moving around behind you, I've been speaking.
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, I've got one dog sitting on the chair behind me. I don't know where the other one is. Probably kills in mayhem somewhere. But yeah, just having access to that voice so I can totally relate to what you were saying about writing in a different voice. And I think I want to explore that because that sounds really interesting. I think it's something that's almost unique to us as writers. The podcast episode that will come out probably before this one, I interviewed an old friend of mine called James Kindred, and he
00:30:12
Speaker
He left the world of agencies because he said that he got to the stage where he, he's a more graphical designer and he's a developer, that he struggled with having to speak in a tone that wasn't his own, because that's what you have to do. You kind of largely tow the agency lines from what I've heard. I've never worked in an agency.
00:30:31
Speaker
And what he does now, everything's about the authenticity of his tone and his message, which is brilliant. And as a writer, yes, that's at the heart of everything we do, but it's kind of part of the job is assuming another tone. Yeah. Well, you're writing for other people. You don't have a choice, really. That's why it's fun to write more for yourself.
00:30:53
Speaker
I started writing music reviews for someone recently. I used to get 200 CDs a week pour through my front door years ago and it drove me batty. I started writing music reviews again and I set aside half an hour to listen to the music and review it and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
00:31:10
Speaker
I sent it off to the editor and sort of looked at the clock. I'm like, was that really only, you know, was that as long as half an hour? Because it felt really quick. I was like, okay, that sort of time warping is a sign that you've enjoyed a project. Yeah, being in the flow. That's it, the flow state. Well, Jan, we are out of time, unfortunately, but I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. That was so much fun. There you go, the flow state of conversation. So I'll put links.
00:31:39
Speaker
put links in the show notes to your LinkedIn. Is there any sort of conclusion message or any sort of defining thing that you'd like to leave the listeners with? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think the conversation we had the other day was the misconception that SEO is complicated. When actually all you need is to be able to write
00:32:04
Speaker
or to hire a writer who can write SEO writing for you. There's also a misconception that SEO writing is starchy. And yeah, if you don't, if you're not a good writer, it will be, but SEO writing doesn't have, it can be conversational. It should be conversational because that's what's going to get it read.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:32:26
Speaker
Fantastic. Thanks very much, Jan. I'm going to say goodbye. Would you like to say goodbye? Goodbye.
00:32:31
Speaker
It's, what is it, Ronnie, two Ronnies used to say, it's goodbye from him and it's, no, it's goodbye from him. Goodbye from... What was it? It's goodbye from him and it's goodbye from me, I think, wasn't it? Oh, we could sing, bring me sunshine, because Eric and Ernie were two of my favourites. Lovely, thanks for your time, Jen. Thank you.