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00:00:01
Ashley Varley
255 Plays5 months ago
In this episode Michelle and Ash have a fascinating chat about Ash's personal running story, with lots of tips for novice marathon and ultra runners, including:
- some insights into his training methods
- pacing a marathon, and getting the negative split right.
- what makes or breaks a marathon
- marathons vs ultras - different training approaches/different fuelling strategies
Michelle has also reviewed Ash's new book called What If? here
You can follow Ash on Instagram here
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Transcript
Introduction and Ashley's Journey to Authorship
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, Ash. Thank you so much for joining us on the UK Run Chat podcast today. I'm really excited to chat to you having just finished your book, What If. So could you just introduce yourself briefly to our listeners, tell us a little bit about yourself and your book? Well, hello, Michelle. Thank you so much, first of all, for having me on here.
00:00:22
Speaker
showing an interest in my book. This is all very surreal to me. Hearing myself referred to as an author is still very strange. But yes, I'm Ashley. I live in Hastings in East Sussex and I'm an avid runner. It's what I do. It's what I like to do when I'm not having to do the things that I have to do. So yeah.
The Passion for Running Begins
00:00:44
Speaker
Yeah. So tell us about how did you get into running first of all? When did that start?
00:00:49
Speaker
Oh, wow. Running for me started a long time ago, way back in 1999. Well, I worked at the time that we had some runners there. And in the town I live in in Hastings, we have quite a famous half marathon, which celebrated its 40th year this year. And we decided in our infinite wisdom one day that we'd give it a crack for charity. And I think I would have been 26, 27 at the time.
00:01:18
Speaker
And I'm thinking, you know, I'll give it a go. I'm sure it'll be fine. I can't be that unfit, though I hadn't done any physical exercise for three or four years. It wasn't that long since I'd done some. And so we'll give it a try. Anyway, so off I go on my first run. And within half a mile, I think I stopped twice, felt like I was going to be sick and death was in my door. It was horrible. But yeah, we got some training done. We managed to get some sort of level of fitness.
00:01:47
Speaker
And sure enough, we did the race, and then probably afterwards I stopped running. And basically, this is what happened for five or six years. Christmas would come and go, and I would start training in January for the race that takes place in March. I would do it, and then I'd stop again. And then for one year, I don't really know why, I decided to carry on. And ever since then, running has become a huge part of my life, and I can't imagine life without running now.
Mental Benefits of Running
00:02:15
Speaker
it's it's part of me you know it's um i just i just love it yeah i mean reading your book that certainly came across you are a runner aren't you it's it's your passion yeah what is that you know what is the magic ingredient that makes that turning point from just training from race to race to actually wanting to go out and just run what can you talk kind of words on it where does that come from do you think
00:02:43
Speaker
Good question. I think it's a will to succeed in the end. I want to test myself and see just where I can take my running journey. I want to find where the boundaries of who I am as a runner and as a person, I guess, as well. I guess it's very much a reflection of your personality in the end, and I want to succeed.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think running to me is far more than just the racing itself. It's my time, it's where I go through the issues we all have every day and I sort through them in my own mind when I'm out on my own and I come back and I'm a better person for it, I think. So I think one of the things that perhaps
00:03:35
Speaker
shall we say, non-runners don't quite understand is the mental benefits of what we do. I think for me, they're probably at least equal if not outweigh the physical benefits of running. It's such a wonderful thing to do to be out in nature and knowing that every day, because sometimes you don't want to go, do you?
The 2016 London Marathon Inspiration
00:03:56
Speaker
And then you go out there and you do it and you come home and you think,
00:03:58
Speaker
God, I did that. I got myself out the door and I feel so much better for the fact that I did. So yeah, I think that's what running means to me.
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point and I guess that can take a while to click, can't it? Particularly if we're new to running because we've got to get over that fitness and the fact that it hurts when we start. I think you kind of say to new runners, listen, we've all been there. The first few weeks is horrible. If you can just stick with it and get through there, it becomes easier and suddenly you're not out of breath after two minutes.
00:04:35
Speaker
you're not wishing you were just at home set in front of the telly and you start to enjoy this thing and it starts to feel good and yet so i think we all have to get over that initial god i don't want to do this thing yeah yeah you've just got to stick with it haven't you yeah um so so take us back then to that because there was a moment in 2016 which is what inspired your whole book really wasn't it during the london marathon and you asked yourself a very important question do you want to tell us about that
Running vs Training
00:05:02
Speaker
Sure. As I say, I've been running for some years by now. I'd had some relative success. I had some race times that I was pleased with. I'd run in some wonderful and amazing events, but I have no excuses when I say that I kind of let my running slip. I'd put on quite a lot of weight.
00:05:24
Speaker
And I just wasn't training properly. Anyway, so I arrogantly assumed I would be, you know, I could run the London marathon and I'd run 310 before over the marathon. I thought it's fine. I'll join the 315 pace group and I'll be able to get through that. It won't be a problem. Well, I got the result. I absolutely deserved. I was underprepared, overweight, and it was a total disaster.
00:05:48
Speaker
and I must have reached 16-17 miles and my whole race fell apart and I watched the pace that I've been with just over here in front of me as my
00:05:59
Speaker
my run became a shuffle and then a walk and it was awful and it was so demoralizing. But I guess in the weeks that followed, I began to question whether I'd really got the very best out of the ability that I'd been given. And I started to think, what if I really tried? What if I went out there and I really trained, I wonder where I could take this?
00:06:26
Speaker
And hence that's where we start the book. What followed was a seven year journey of discovery taking me to places that I never imagined I would ever get to. Yeah. And it's funny because at that point you were, you were 43. Is that right? It could have been, it could have been easy to say, Oh, I'm getting older and make some excuses for it. But you didn't, what, you know, why did, why do you think you chose to kind of push the boundaries there? Because I just, what you've achieved, but yeah, why?
00:06:57
Speaker
I just felt that there was unfinished business. I mean, I'd always harbored an ambition to break three hours for the marathon. I always wanted to do that, but all I ever done was thought there'd be a nice thing to do.
00:07:13
Speaker
And I hadn't really ever trained to do that. And I guess that was really the starting point. The number one ambition was, I wonder if I could really do that. And I think it was that feeling that I'd never really given myself a chance. I'd never really, I'd run a lot, but I probably hadn't trained a lot. Because for me now, I think there's a distinct difference between the two.
00:07:38
Speaker
And yeah, I just felt, I don't want to leave it here. I'll always think, what if, you know, what if I've really tried? What would have happened? And so, yeah, and I just wanted to know that I didn't have to look back and think, I thought I'd like to have a go, but I never really did. I just found excuses for not doing it. You know, I really wanted to try. And that was, I guess that was the starting point.
Purpose in Training
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah, so what changed then? What is the difference for you between running and training? What changes? Well, the difference between running and training was, so when I was... I would run a lot. I would probably run at just pretty much one pace, you know, and I would go and run a lot during the week. I might try to...
00:08:24
Speaker
do the odd effort session here and there or something like that. But once I began to focus in on training, once I discovered a training program that would help me achieve my goals,
00:08:37
Speaker
suddenly it became a tempo run every week and then there would be an effort run every week and there would be easy runs and there would be longer runs that were done at a far easier pace than I'd ever been doing my longer runs and there became this huge distinction in my pace whereas I would previously run somewhere between I don't know let's say for argument's sake 7.30 and an eight minute mining suddenly my running was somewhere between
00:09:02
Speaker
sort of six minute mile and eight and a half minute mile. And there was a huge difference depending on what session I was doing in what pace I would be running at. And yeah, so suddenly I start to train. I start to do warmups before I do effort sessions. I've never done anything like that before. There was real structure to the efforts. There would be a reason now why I was running that and I would reach goals because I was, you know,
00:09:30
Speaker
Under taking the sessions and yes instead of just regularly i wasn't even particularly running anymore miles it was just that they were structured proper miles rather than them rather than just me going and doing lots of running.
00:09:45
Speaker
And I think that was a real turning point for me and how we go about perhaps taking our running from, you know, because I think perhaps with running we can get to maybe 90% of where we think we could ever get to. Finding that last 10% requires a lot more effort, but focused effort to get that final sort of piece of the jigsaw in place. And that's where I went and that's what I do in these days.
00:10:16
Speaker
Every mile counts. There's a reason I'm running every mile and the reason I'm running at whatever pace that is. And yeah, so that's what I mean by the distinction between running and training.
Mental Preparation and Confidence Building
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah. So every session has a purpose, even though easy runs.
00:10:35
Speaker
even those runs where perhaps you do just need to go out and think, ah, this is all about just... I'm recovering, I'm preparing, you know, I'm getting, I'm building that aerobic fitness in those miles as well. So, you know, they're not nothing miles. It's not just kind of a recovery thing. They're miles where I'm, you know, I'm building my aerobic endurance or whatever the challenge may be that's coming. So they are massively important. But that distinction, I think between, for me, that distinction between
00:11:06
Speaker
My sort of effort pace on my easy pace is massive. It's a huge change now in the way that I run. Yeah. And I think that's important. I think, yeah, most runners could benefit from that, couldn't they? Where did you get the inspiration for all these different types of sessions then? Were you part of a club? Did you do some research online to figure out what you were doing?
00:11:29
Speaker
So I bought a book, I think it's called The Runner's World Book of Half Marathon and Marathon Training. And I got it from there and I found, I've done a lot of running by then, so I chose a program that I felt would suit my running profile. And I followed that. But here's the really interesting thing for me when it comes to training. For me, running is very much a mental exercise. So somebody can give you a training plan and say,
00:11:58
Speaker
If you do X, Y and Z, ultimately, hopefully you should get faster. So if you follow this plan, you should become a much better runner. You should perhaps achieve better times, et cetera, et cetera. The hard thing is putting that into practice. That's where the mental element comes in. So for me, I think that when you're gonna run 5K or up to ultra distance running, if you're looking to go higher, further or faster than you ever have before,
00:12:28
Speaker
This is going to challenge you. And it's going to challenge you mentally. Now, the way I try to prepare myself for that eventuality is to try and gain little victories every single week. So if I take a session that I absolutely detest with all my heart, so if I look at my one mile repeats, they are horrible. They are too fast, they test me, and I have to dig really, really deep to do them.
00:12:54
Speaker
But if I can do that every week, I score a little victory. And if I can do that then the next week and the week after that, I start to score even more victories, which become bigger victories.
00:13:05
Speaker
and I'm winning now and if I'm winning every week that starts to breed confidence and I start to believe that I might just actually be able to pull off whatever it is I'm doing and of course when it comes to race day I've already gone through many of these mental battles during my training so when it starts to hurt which it will do when it starts to hurt and I think
00:13:26
Speaker
I don't know that I can go on like this. I've already been through those mental battles and I already know that I have the strength within me to do that. So you can't leave it all, certainly for me, I can't leave it all to race day and hope that I'll have the mental strength to push on through the plane barrier. What I need to do is build that week on week on week on week and I do that by doing those sessions, just those little sessions every week that test me and I have to dig deep to do and I think that
00:13:57
Speaker
I think that the mental side of running is something that I really need to focus on as much as the physical side. I have to be mentally prepared for the challenge that's coming. And then I can stand on the start line and think, we've been here, we know what's coming, we can do this.
Breaking the 3-Hour Marathon Barrier
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, that is brilliant advice, Ash. Yeah, and of course, that mental game really comes into play with a marathon, doesn't it? Would you say marathon for distance now? Because you have done a lot of ultra races as well. Which kind of distance do you prefer? For their own reasons, I love all of them. But if you're asking me, the marathon personally remains the biggest test of endurance over speed.
00:14:43
Speaker
and there is nowhere to hide and whereas ultra running is very different. We talk, we call ultra running over the course by its very nature. There's plenty of walking involved. If you're looking for a fast marathon time, that can't happen. And so that means that when you feel that it's beginning to bite, you just have to push on through. So I love the challenge of the marathon. I truly love the challenge of the marathon. It really is.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, mind you, the older I get, 5Ks get ever harder. But yeah, the marathon is probably my favorite distance. I love it. I really do. Yeah. And it does have the capacity to surprise us, the marathon. It does. Oh, it does. Yeah. What's been your most surprising or most challenging marathon to date, would you say, as you've gone through this process?
00:15:36
Speaker
I think my most challenging was probably the first time I broke three hours. I think that was because it's one thing to want to do it, it's one thing to train to do it and to, you know, all the figures add up and it says that, you know, the training you've done suggests that you should be able to do this. To put that into practice is a whole different ballgame.
00:16:01
Speaker
I was so nervous. I got very lucky that I actually did it at the Brighton Marathon in 2018, and when we got the race information, they said there would be, I think it was pace groups from 315. So I thought, God, I'm going to be on my own here. I'm going to have to pace this thing on my own. And lo and behold, these two guys appeared with balloons on their backs, and I thought, what the hell are these two? And it turned out that these two guys, whether they were official or they'd taken upon themselves, I don't know.
00:16:29
Speaker
They paced the race and so it was wonderful. I could put everything in their hands. All I had to do was concentrate on one foot in front of the other and they took all that away from me. But I can remember getting to 18 miles and thinking, jeez, this is getting really, really hard now. And I had to dig so deep. It wasn't until
00:16:52
Speaker
Really, it wasn't until maybe 25 and a half miles, I thought, gee, I'm going to pull this off. This is going to happen. Because it felt like at any moment, this could all go catastrophically wrong. I mean, uncharted territory here. I've never been here before. I think before that, I'd done 307 have been my fastest. So this is a whole different arena. And I really didn't truly believe this was going to happen until I was so near the end.
00:17:21
Speaker
I can't tell you how wonderful that feeling was. After so much hard work, it took me two years from that 2016 failure at London Marathon, it took me two years to actually
Marathon Strategy and Fueling
00:17:32
Speaker
get there. That's, you know, patience is a big thing with training. Another thing I've learned that you need to be patient. You need to commit and you need to be patient.
00:17:41
Speaker
I'd failed miserably somewhere trying to do it beforehand because I'd got it wrong. I hadn't got my strategy right. And that was another harsh lesson. But then to do it in 2018 was just amazing. And yeah, it was hard, but it was the most rewarding thing I've ever done. It really was.
00:18:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's been fantastic reading about all your different marathons in the book. You seem to have done something that not a lot of runners achieve, and that is nailing that negative split. Is that the best way for you to pace a marathon for yourself, do you think? Or what would you advise people who are trying to achieve a well-paced marathon?
00:18:24
Speaker
So I can only talk from my point of view here, but for me, banking time does not work. I'll say it again, banking time does not work. If you go off too hard over a marathon, it's going to bite and it's going to bite hard.
00:18:39
Speaker
So a negative split works is by far and away the best way for me to run a marathon. If we look at the very best over the marathon distance, that is what they do. And who am I to question what the very best are doing? So the way I, one of the things I do when I'm training for a marathon race or a road marathon race is when I do my long Sunday run, I do a nice, nice easy pace. So say I'm at a 20 mile run,
00:19:05
Speaker
I'm at a nice easy pace on building that aerobic stamina, but for the last two miles or so of that run, I then push myself to get below marathon pace. So we're now going back into that mental element again. As I build towards it, I start to get to miles 15, 16, 17. I'm beginning to feel now I've been on my legs for a long time and I'm beginning to think it's not going to happen. I'm going to kick today and it won't be there.
00:19:31
Speaker
there'll be nothing. I'll think right now's the time Ash, I'll kick and nothing will happen. My legs won't respond and invariably it does. And so it's a wonderful, again, it's one of those little victories I speak about. And it also means that when I get to marathon day and I'm getting towards the end of the race, while I may not be able to find the extra pace, I do know what it feels like to have to go through that
00:19:57
Speaker
Jeez, I'm not going to be able to do this. And I can think back to my training and think, yes, but I did. Every single week I did. I got to the end of my long run and for the last two miles of it, I pushed myself to get below the marathon place I would need on race day. And that works me brilliantly. And then on race day itself, for me, nutrition is huge. So like all of us, I'll be carbo loading in there in a couple of days leading into the, um, into the marathon. I'll have a good breakfast.
00:20:24
Speaker
that an hour or so before the race starts, I'll have a banana or something, and then 15 minutes before I'll use an energy gel. I like to fuel the energy gels, they work for me.
00:20:37
Speaker
From five miles into the race, I'm fueling every five miles and I'm not fueling for that five miles or the next five miles. I'm fueling four when the glycogen stores in my body begins to run out. So that way I don't really hit the wall anymore. Yes, it begins to get hard, but I've been building up the glycogen stores. I've been putting that back into my system.
00:20:58
Speaker
So that when I've run out of what my body can naturally hold, I think they say it's 18 miles, the average person can hold, yep, before you begin to lose that. And you start to try and turn fat into energy, which takes a lot more energy out of your body. So I'm trying to avoid that by fueling very early on. And for me, it works, whether it's that placebo thing or whatever it is, or I don't know, but it works for me. And so I then have that, with the two things combined, I then have that
00:21:26
Speaker
that knowledge that I can and I have the energy to keep going and that it works for me, it works really well and it's become something that
Transition to Ultra-Running
00:21:34
Speaker
I worked so hard to do, I mean, I just ran the London marathon this weekend and I was a two minute negative split again. And it's, yeah, it is for me, it's absolutely the way to go. And I think sometimes people think, well, are you not pushing in the first half thing? Yes, I am, but in a controlled fashion, I'm in control of it. I like to sort of think by halfway, the 13 mile mark, I need to, I think I need to, I need to know that I'm running half, but I'm in control.
00:22:02
Speaker
that we go into what i call the business miles up to twenty miles if i can get to twenty miles and i'm still feeling good that's when we get a push on this when we start to look for the edges when we start to drive for the end and um and it feels it feels good it feels you know i'm in control today that's a wonderful feeling and again it's that mental battle to know that you can if you can get through the next four miles you don't think you're two miles to home i can do that i know i can do that and so
00:22:28
Speaker
So yeah, the negative split is vital. And what I do on my long run during training really helps. And then maintaining that nutrition on race day is vital. Yeah. So can we talk a bit about your ultra-renew? Yeah, sure. Because you did what you wanted to do initially at the marathon, didn't you? And then you went into ultra distance. So what inspired that? What prompted you to do longer distance?
00:22:56
Speaker
Okay, well, I had a friend, a very good friend of mine in Hastings who'd already done it. And so I was lucky in that somebody had actually done these things that I knew and you said, wow, these things are actually possible. People really do these things. And I thought I'd like to give it a go. I'd like to have a crack at going beyond the marathon and to find out what it's like to keep going for six, seven, eight, nine hours.
00:23:24
Speaker
and beyond. And so I chose my first race, I chose 100k. And I chose, have you heard of the company Ultra Challenge? Right, so Ultra Challenge, they accommodate both walkers and runners. So what that means is their cutoff times, because cutoff times come into play during ultra running, are very long. So that meant I was under no time pressure to, you know, should it all go completely catastrophically wrong, I could have carried on walking and I would have made it to the end.
00:23:54
Speaker
So I chose an ultra-challenged race, and I chose one that was the London to Brighton, because living in Hastings, I'm about 30 miles along the coast from Brighton. So I felt like I was running home, and I would always know where I was going back to. And yeah, so I suppose I didn't really change my... I was so naive to it then. I didn't really change my training much beyond my marathon training. Got on trails more, perhaps.
00:24:23
Speaker
And so I gave it a go and I got it so wrong. I got to halfway running as if I was, I was, I was some sort of, you know, I took it like a marathon. I got to halfway and I was utterly broken. It was kind of like, right, here we are then. So this is ultra running.
00:24:39
Speaker
And it was such, I made it to the end, but that it was such a mental battle, like I'd never experienced before. And the sense of achievement when I crossed the line was, it was really emotional, actually, because it was like nothing I'd ever done before. I was in so much pain. I was so tired and, and it had been a real, a real test. And, and yeah, but, but I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the challenge. I think initially I've said never again, as we always do.
00:25:08
Speaker
But then it grew from there really, and then I did a couple more 100k ultra challenge events, and then I moved on to kind of proper ultra running with proper ultra runners, and it grew from there really. Yeah, so talk to us about the 100 mile events that you've done then, because you've done a fair few of those now, haven't you? I've done a fair few of those now, yeah. So I think at that stage I've done 100k, and I've done a 50 mile event, and I've done
00:25:38
Speaker
I've done the South Downs way, the Centurion running South Downs way 50. And they also do a 100 mile event. And the 100 mile event, the second half of it is the 50 mile race. So again, I thought I'm going to have this thing where I get to half way and I can at least know where I'm going.
00:25:59
Speaker
I decided that I'd have a crack at my first one at being the South Times Way 100. Again, I'm running home again because it goes from Winchester to Eastbourne. And so I would know kind of where I was and I'd feel like, oh, I know that town name and I know it's getting closer to where I live. And this time I changed up my training. I bought some books that related to ultra running.
00:26:22
Speaker
And I began to explore the delights of the back-to-back run. So over weekend, when I'm marathon training, I might do, I don't know, six easy miles on a Saturday, then my long run on a Sunday. It became 18 miles on a Saturday and 22 miles on a Sunday, which is, wow, it was such a change. But yeah, so I sort of went there, utterly terrified, looking around, thinking, I don't belong here. I've got all these thick-looking, wonderful people, and then there's me.
00:26:52
Speaker
And yeah, so off I went, started. Whenever I start a newer distance, I kind of refer to it as going to school. So I go there to learn. I watch what other people are doing. And if they've reached a point in the race where we're going uphill and they're walking, then that's what I'm supposed to be doing. If it's good enough for them, then it's good enough for me. And they're a wonderful, wonderful bunch of runners. And yes, it was
00:27:17
Speaker
I think I made it to halfway and I felt quite good and then certainly you're allowed to use paces on ultra distance races. And so at 70 miles I met my pacer and that was another really kind of big relief, you know, that somebody else would now take over the thinking. All I had to do, I didn't have to worry about where I was going and whether I was eating and whether I was drinking and my pacer took care of that for me.
00:27:45
Speaker
And yeah, and we somehow made it to the end. It was like, it's funny because time just disappears when you're ultra running in a way that it doesn't in anything else. You just completely lose track of what time of day is, you know, it's hours disappear with just in miles and without you, well, certainly that's what I find anywhere that without any sort of understanding of what time of day is, you just keep on going.
00:28:13
Speaker
And it really is the most incredible thing. It's, um, it's, it's very, very hard. I think I've marshaled actually at, um, a previous a hundred mile race towards the end of the race. And it terrified me. These people were sort of coming through the age station, like zombies, you know, and you're thinking, gosh, is this, is this what it takes to actually finish one of these things? And yeah, so I got to the end of it again. I think I've said never again, I could barely move for about five days.
00:28:40
Speaker
But I got the bug for it and it sort of grew from there and I got, I guess I got better at it. I understood more about the differences in perhaps marathon training and ultra training.
00:28:55
Speaker
And I've grown to love it. It's a very, very different discipline. And it's rewarding in a very different way, I think. I think it's the longevity that makes it different to a marathon. The goal is to finish, perhaps, rather than worry about what time you finish in, you know?
Inspirational Influences and Mental Strength
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:16
Speaker
And you say that, but you are very humble, but you have actually won an ultra event, haven't you? You've been first. Yes, that was a 50 miler, and you're very kind. I won the Centurion running Chilton Wonderland 50. And yeah, it probably is my greatest
00:29:40
Speaker
running achievement and they have these um they get the centurion running so the trophies they give out are kind of like um they're kind of like a centurion a roman centurion and he's kind of in this in this sort of running pose if you like and i used to be at the races and you'd look at these things and think don't look at them they're not for you you're never going to win one of them and um and i actually own one now and that that is yeah it probably
00:30:05
Speaker
remains I mean I was very lucky that year it was I actually I've no shame in saying my winning time is the slowest winning time there's ever been at the race but it was good enough on that day for me to win and it's um and it um it was the heart winning was the was was it was the hardest thing I've ever done I mean I think it was in the lead for 32 miles which was just mental torture
00:30:28
Speaker
Um, but yeah, it's, um, yeah, so I'm very, very proud of that achievement and it will live with me forever. And it started cause it came, you know, it was in 2023. So it was almost sort of the end of, end of, end of this seven year journey really. And it, it's, it just goes to show for me what, cause you know, I genuinely, I am a very, very ordinary runner and I just wonder what would happen if I really tried and, um, and
00:30:55
Speaker
I guess that's what can happen. And it's something I'm very proud of. Yeah, well, I think you've certainly inspired a lot of people. I think I said this to you, having read the book, that you've inspired me to change up some of my training and think, oh, what could I achieve? So that's, yeah, words can inspire. You know, I'm inspired by runners of all abilities.
00:31:25
Speaker
And I genuinely mean that with all my heart. And let me try and explain. So we generally, not just in running in life, we judge people by winners and losers, don't we? And when it comes to running, we tend to judge people on the times they complete races and the finishing position that they achieve.
00:31:46
Speaker
So, in my case, over the marathon, if I run a three-hour marathon, I know I've had to work very, very hard to do that. But for my three-hour marathon, that might be somebody else's four-hour marathon, or somebody else's five-hour marathon, or six hours, or whatever. And that may have worked
00:32:05
Speaker
equally as hard as I have to achieve that result. But because it isn't near the front of the field, or it isn't winning, or it isn't somebody goes, my word, you run a marathon in under three hours, you know. So outside of their immediate family and friends who are going to be proud of them no matter what, they perhaps don't get the attention that they deserve, and yet they have worked incredibly hard to achieve
00:32:29
Speaker
what I have, you know, we all have a finite ability surely of, you know, that we can reach, or else we'd all be running to our Americans. That's not happening.
00:32:38
Speaker
So call it genetics, fate, luck, whatever you will, that we all can only get to a certain point. That's the way I see it. Our job, if we choose to do it, is to try and get the best out of our own given ability. And if you are doing that, then you are every bit the runner that I am, no matter what finishing position or time you have. And I am genuinely inspired every day by the fact that
00:33:03
Speaker
People are going out there trying really hard to be the very best and that motivates me so much so i inspire others it's only because i've been inspired by others who have gone their own journeys you know.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Can we talk a little bit about the people that have inspired you, Joan Racist, to dig deeper? Because you mentioned a few of them in your book. So there was a chat when you, I think it was when you were going sub three. And he encouraged you just to dig deeper at the end, didn't he? And I know you've had a few friends helping you out. Yeah, that's a very good friend of mine, actually. He wasn't actually running at the time. He's watching. And I'm coming up to he was he was at the 24. He was the 24 mile marker.
00:33:47
Speaker
and I came in and my shoulders are dropping now and I'm beginning to feel it and I look towards him and I distinctly remember shaking my head as if I can't, there's nothing left and he's a very placid man and he looked at me and he looked me square in the eyes and he shouted at me, run, that's the only word he said and I thought
00:34:10
Speaker
That is so powerful. That is everything I need to hear. Am I going to let this, all this hard work, all these weeks, these years of training, all those sessions that I thought I didn't want to do and somehow I found a way through it. That one word drew all of that into my mind and that, you know, you have to push for everything you're worth now. Or all this wasn't, what was it all about then? So one word, it's amazing how one word, one action,
00:34:39
Speaker
from somebody can make you want to dig deeper and find something else and keep going. And I've had it in races where, I think I had it in an ultra race where I was about to embark on some awful hill and I stood at the bottom of it and it's late in the race thinking, I can't do that. There's no way I'm gonna get up there. And somebody must have seen me and he walked up to me and he just put his hand on my shoulder and he said to me, we have to keep going.
00:35:08
Speaker
And it was just, it was just beautiful. And together we set off this trail and those few, I was, I was, had I been, how do you have not been there? I don't know what I've carried on, who knows? But it was just beautiful that he took the time to come over to me and say, we have to keep going. And again, it just brings into my mind again, or else, why did I go through all the training I did if I'm going to give up now? You can't give up now.
00:35:37
Speaker
you have to find a way to keep going. And yet the power of other people, the motivational voices of other people, it can be so empowering, so
Healing Through Running
00:35:47
Speaker
empowering. And this is just a couple of examples of times that's happened for me.
00:35:51
Speaker
Yeah. And people, I think people genuinely don't realise the power of those words. Absolutely. 100% of the race. But yes, so important. Can we touch upon the, you did the virtual London Marathon. Sure. Yeah. The pandemic, didn't you? When it got cancelled, sadly.
00:36:09
Speaker
And you mentioned kind of talking, kind of meeting people running in the t-shirts. Now, your your experience went a little bit wrong there, didn't it, in terms of your app? Straight away, did you run a little bit extra? Yes, yes. I mean, you're very kind the way you put that. It's my stupid fault I didn't start the app. But yes, I left my hotel assuming that I
00:36:35
Speaker
I'd started the app on my watch because it was like an app that the London Marathon did. I thought I'd heard something from this by now. I had my headphones on and nothing had happened. I looked down to realise that seven miles into this ruddy thing, I hadn't started the lap counter.
00:36:57
Speaker
So although I'd run seven miles, I'd actually done nothing. And I thought, no, no, no, this is not happening. So I ended up doing 30-odd miles that day. But anyway, yeah, I don't know why I thought it, but they gave you a number. So I put my race number on, and you think, I'm going to be the only people that don't want it on Earth. Just this bloke doing running around. And there was, I came across other people who were doing mail-under marathon, you know?
00:37:26
Speaker
and other people who were just out on their Sunday run and they start cheering you on and then there was cars, people must have realised what was happening and they're tooting at you as you're just running up a random road in the middle of nowhere on your own with a race number on. And I guess you think, maybe I forgot that there were, I don't know, 45, 50,000 people running around America and we're all dotted all around the UK now and we're all doing this thing and at a time when
00:37:52
Speaker
the world was going mad and you wondered what the future was. That really felt, there was such a sense of camaraderie and teamwork and it was really, really uplifting. I just thought I'd just go and do this thing and nobody would think much of it. And I get a sentimental in the post, but there you are. And it was wonderful. There was a kind of a crew waiting for somebody to give them drinks and they gave me some water as I'm getting everything.
00:38:18
Speaker
wow this just amazing it was it was just just wonderful and it really did help me to get through the blooming 30 miles i ended up doing i think on that day you know but yeah it was it was so in turn it made this sort of event that was um it felt very isolated like we all felt i guess at the time and normally we come together and and we get cheered on by all these crowds in in london and we're all together and we're all doing this thing and um and and
00:38:44
Speaker
In some small way, it was almost even more special by the fact that, though we were all on our own, in truth we weren't. There were other people, other runners that were out there, and they knew what was happening that day, and they took it upon themselves to cheer us on, and just ordinary members, going about their own, and members of the public going about their ordinary days, and took the trouble to sort of shout and cheer from their cars. It was, yeah, it was during a very, very difficult time for the world. It was a wonderful thing, truly uplifting.
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah, that community is so lovely, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Yeah. And I gather through that chapter in the book, that was quite a poignant route for you that you chose to do, wasn't it? Do you mind thinking about that a little bit? All right. So, yes, it was... So I grew up in a town that I don't live in now.
00:39:38
Speaker
And my wife has always been curious as to where I grew up. And so we thought, well, we might do this virtual race. And she said, well, why don't we do it? Why don't we go back to where you grew up? And you can show me where you lived. And so I thought, OK, let's do that. And I planned a route that took me past schools and houses and places that I've worked when I was a kid doing those Saturday jobs and that.
00:40:08
Speaker
But I kept something to myself. There was a reason I wanted to plan this route. And as a child, when I was growing up, I suffered horrendous abuse. I mean, it doesn't matter what it was. All I can tell you is I was exposed to behaviour that no child should ever, ever be exposed to. And it's left its scars to this day, and it's something I carry with me, and I always will carry with me.
00:40:38
Speaker
I wanted to, I wanted, it was, I don't really know why I wanted to, I guess, but I wanted to, I wanted to run past this house where the last time I'd been there was a frightened little boy, and I wanted to run past there, no longer frightened and no longer scared, and I wanted to sort of run past there was a man I'd become today who was, who was
00:41:03
Speaker
sort of tries to, while I still struggle with what happened, I've gone on to do better things in my life. And it felt like a really poignant thing to do. It felt like a cathartic thing to do, to stand tall, as tall as I could, and which is quite something for a short little man, to go past his house and say, I am not, you know, the man I am today is not defined by what happened to me.
00:41:33
Speaker
in my youth. I was a victim of something. It wasn't my fault and I want to show probably to myself that I can look at this place and I can think, no, every mile I run, every success I have takes me further away from that frightened little boy and that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. And what I would say is that
00:42:02
Speaker
We all suffer in life, we all suffer grief, we all suffer loss, trauma, pain, abuse, and we all deal with it in our own way. There is no rule book for this thing. It's something that we, you know, nobody tells you how you're supposed to feel and how you're supposed to deal with these issues. And there is no right or wrong, and I'm not here to judge anyone who is still suffering now, who is struggling to come to terms with what happened to them.
00:42:28
Speaker
And I can't promise anyone a brighter day, but what I can promise is hope. And through my running and my beautiful life, I have an inner peace in my life that I never thought I would have.
00:42:42
Speaker
And that is probably the greatest gift that running has given me. And that's wonderful, and I will forever treasure that. And yeah, that really is the best thing it's given me of all, because I succeed here, and I am better than the person I was supposed to become.
Support System and Future Plans
00:43:03
Speaker
Thank you for sharing that, Ash. I've got goosebumps. The power of running is, yeah, it's incredible, isn't it? Yeah. Thank you. You mentioned your wife there. She, of course, has given you lots of support on your races, hasn't she? Do you want to say? She certainly has. She is amazing. She is, you know, I think that
00:43:26
Speaker
One of the things that perhaps comes with ultra running, ultra running training takes up a lot of time. We'll do it differently, but when I'm training for altars, I'll peak it.
00:43:37
Speaker
80 miles a week, that takes a lot of time. And so it means I'm often out of the house for a long period of time. And my wife kind of has to pick up, my wife Jane has to pick up the slack and she does that, she never complains. She's ever encouraging and ever supportive. And she has been by my side, wiping my brow, changing my disgusting clothes at age station after age station, finding a way to places in the dark, in the middle of nowhere,
00:44:07
Speaker
And she is, yeah, she is as much a part of this journey as I am. And one of the most amazing things she does is, as much as I sound like, at times I can sound like a nail, this running thing. There are many times on Ultras when I've just wanted to give up and I'll arrive to where she is curating me and say, I can't do any more of this. And she has never once said to me, well, to then just stop.
00:44:32
Speaker
What she says to me is, let's get some warm food inside you, let's get you changed, and let's see how we feel after that. Because all you want to hear is, just stop. Nobody's going to care. We love you. You're amazing. What you've done is incredible. And that's what you want to hear. But she has never, ever said that to me. And she sort of sits me down. She makes her own food. And even just to have three or four minutes of that, everything changes. And that moment of, I can't do another step.
00:45:01
Speaker
you start to think well actually maybe i could and then and then you know and it sounds like i hope i'm explaining that okay sounds like such an insignificant thing but there's somebody never gives you the option to stop and just says you know you can do this let's just take a moment let's just gather our thoughts and let's get on with this and she's been amazing and she is as much a part of
00:45:22
Speaker
this journey as I am. And I could not have done any of it without her. You'll know she features hugely throughout the book. I mean, she's even taken the dog out today so we can do this podcast. So there you go, right up to the end.
00:45:44
Speaker
Yeah, amazing. We all need a Jane in our lives. Yes, yes. Fantastic. So yeah, thank you, Ash. It's been amazing chatting to you. I absolutely love your book. I found it just really honest.
00:45:57
Speaker
really warm and you're so humble for the amazing runner that you are. What have you got coming up next? Have you got big plans this year, next year? So this year it's time to find Ashley Ultra runner again because I'm doing the Lakeland 100, that is 100 miles. It's up in the beautiful Lake District but it's a lot of elevation.
00:46:20
Speaker
And so I've got to, now the London Marathon's out of the way, it's back to focusing on trails and elevation gain and back to that runs. And yeah, so I've got a lot of that coming up, but I'm really looking forward to it. Like I said, it's a completely different challenge and it's, yeah, so that's, I'll find somewhere perhaps beforehand a 50K race or something is part of a warmup, but yeah, so it's back to the trails again, back to the massive hills and
00:46:49
Speaker
And yeah, and becoming the ultra runner again. But yes, so that's my next adventure. Yeah, fantastic. That's coming up in July, is that right? Yes, coming up in July, yes. Yeah, where do you find massive hills in your neck of the woods then? Where do you tend to live? I live on the coast, in Hastings here, and we have
00:47:13
Speaker
We have the South Downs not far away. I'm only about 90 miles from the South Downs where I can do lots and lots of long rolling hills, which is wonderful. And I also have a cliff path here. And it has monstrous hills, really short but really, really steep monstrous hills.
00:47:32
Speaker
So whereas when I'm marathon training, midweek I might do a tempo run, instead of that I'll go out onto the hills and I'll do eight and nine miles over there. And where my Sunday run might be on the road when I'm marathon training, instead of that, I'll be over the South Downs getting all the seven sisters over beachy head, again, some really, really tough hills and getting used to becoming a trail runner again. And variety is the spice of life. I love it. I love both different elements of running.
00:48:00
Speaker
The faster running, I also like the slower running where the mental battles are just as hard, but even longer. And yeah, so I just love all the things of running really. So I like to be able to, if I change it up, I never get bored of what I'm doing. So it's a wonderful thing. Yeah, that's key. I've got one last question then. Do you think ultra running has helped or hindered your marathon performance? That's a really, really good question.
00:48:28
Speaker
So in 2022, have you heard of the UTMB CCC? Yes, I think we all have. For those that don't know it. Yeah, yeah, that's a big race. Yes, it's a race that starts, the event is in Chamonix. And for a week in August, in Chamonix in France, this is all taken over by trail runners. And there's various races that take place in the Alps. And in 2022, I did the CCC, which is incredibly hilly,
00:48:58
Speaker
100k trail race. And it went really well. Anyway, so it just so happens that I then ran the London Marathon in October that year because the 2022 one was the last post COVID one to be held in October. And lo and behold, I ran my personal best. So I think the answer is then that the longer running, because when I'm doing my ultra training, I still like to do my
00:49:25
Speaker
effort and tempo sessions. It's what I like to do. Some people do, some people don't, but I do. So I still keep them up. And then I guess the endurance that you build into your legs from the distance and the hills that you're doing, it must work because not only actually did I run my marathon PB that year, I also ran my 10K PB that year. So I think ultra running for me has certainly helped my road racing, my marathon racing, et cetera.
00:49:53
Speaker
Yeah, but it's making sure you're still getting that, you know, the speed. Exactly. I still do my speed work in there yet. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you. Well, thanks so much. I've loved having you on for a chat. I could, I could sit there and talk for hours about running with you. Oh, don't even go there. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I won't take up any more of your time. So can you just remind us of your book title and where they can get their hands on it then? I'd say so. It's, um, it's what if.
00:50:20
Speaker
a running journey from failure to first place, and it's available on Amazon. You can buy it as a paperback or on Kindle. And this is all very surreal. I seem to have been getting some, you know, when I published it, I thought, well, maybe a few, you know, family members, friends might want to look at it, but
00:50:38
Speaker
But yeah, I've had people that I've never heard of that have read it and it's been sold in America and it's been sold in Australia and it's, you know, this is all very new to me and it's really quite strange. But if I can inspire one person, just one person to think, you know what, I want to have a go at this thing. I want to feel what that feels like to push myself to my outer limits. I want that feeling.
00:51:04
Speaker
Oh, that is just, that will be wonderful. That would be such a wonderful, wonderful thing because it's in all of us. It just takes, it takes determination. It takes, it takes commitment. It takes patience and it takes structure, but you can become the runner you want to be. You really, really can. And I would, oh, for anyone go out there and try, really do try. And, and, and it's, it's, I think the biggest thing I'll take from this journey
00:51:33
Speaker
is I will never ever have to think again what if because I did it and that is the most wonderful feeling I'll tell you it just it just it really does I love it it's and I'll always know that and it's such a such a wonderful thing. Thank you Ash. Thank you. You certainly inspired me and hopefully if you're out there listening do let us know if you're feeling inspired as well. We hope you've enjoyed this. Good luck, Michelle. Good luck with it.
00:52:03
Speaker
and see you.