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Episode 303: Damon Brown
197 Plays3 years ago
Get the gig you want with the skills you've got, that's the subtitle of Damon Brown's new book, Career Remix. It's published by Sterling.
Social: CNFPod
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Introduction & Community Support
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, what's going on CNFers? Hey, if you're looking to get into shape and looking for someone to hold you accountable, oftentimes you hire a personal trainer. Likewise, if your writing needs a little bit of a boost, let's say that little something, something in your corner, consider letting me help you out.
00:00:20
Speaker
If you're working on a book, an essay, a query, book proposal, hey, I'm in the thick of book proposal, and you're ready to level up, consider giving me an email, brendan at brendanamara.com, and we'll start a dialogue. I'd be honored and thrilled to help you get where you want to go.
Creative Nonfiction Podcast Overview
00:00:38
Speaker
I think the key thing is to understand that uncertainty is actually your opportunity.
00:00:49
Speaker
Hmm, this is the Creative Nonfiction Pocket. It's a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. How's it going?
Guest Feature: Damon Brown & 'Career Remix'
00:00:58
Speaker
Today's guest, did you recognize that voice? If you're a long time listener of the CNF podcast, you should know that that's Damon Brown comes back for number three. He's got a new book out called Career Remix. Get the gig you want with the skills you've got. It's published by Sterling.
00:01:19
Speaker
It's a great read in germane to the times if you ask me.
Navigating Career Changes
00:01:23
Speaker
It could be that you've been doing the same kind of work for 20 years and maybe you're gonna get laid off or maybe you're just you're gonna ride that great resignation wave. Well then what? So how do you leverage all your skills so it doesn't feel like everything that you've done for most of your adult life is a sunk cost?
00:01:44
Speaker
and maybe some of those years are sunk, so it's best to maybe fill a survival knapsack full of some transferable skills and get busy elsewhere, you know?
00:01:57
Speaker
Before that, of course, let's do some housekeeping CNF-ers. I want to remind you to keep the conversation going on Twitter at CNFpod or at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram. You can also support the podcast by becoming a paid member at patreon.com slash CNFpod.
Podcast Engagement & Challenges
00:02:12
Speaker
As I say, the show is free, but as sure as hell ain't cheap. Members get transcripts. I'm trying. I'm trying to keep pace with them.
00:02:21
Speaker
harder than I like to admit. Even though I use a transcription service and all I have to do is go through and clean them up, it's a matter of prioritizing the time and right now I have not been good at that. I'm sorry. You also get chances to ask questions of future guests and I've got some special sort of podcasts in the work, little short things for the Patreon crew.
00:02:46
Speaker
Free ways to support the show if you're unable to support monetarily. You can leave a kind review or rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
00:02:56
Speaker
written reviews for our little podcast that could go a long way towards validating this enterprise for the wayward CNF-er. We've got a nice little flood of written reviews of late. I read a couple the last few weeks and I'll read a new one right now from Melissa Grinnell or Grinnell titled Love exclamation point.
00:03:21
Speaker
I thoroughly enjoy the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, thoughtful questions, engaging conversations, and I learn something new each time I listen. And that's what it's all about, baby. We're here to have conversations that make you feel less shitty and just might, you know, but just might learn something that'll grease the skids for your work and maybe remove some of that resistance so you can work on those essays and maybe chip away at that memoir.
00:03:50
Speaker
Maybe you're doing some narrative journalism. Write up my alley,
Writing & Publishing Insights
00:03:54
Speaker
man. Show notes in my up to 11 monthly newsletter can be found at Brendan O'Mara.com. Hey, once a month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it.
00:04:03
Speaker
Okay, so Damon, he's written more than 20 books. Yeah, that's 20 with a two and a zero. Many on his indie label and some traditionally published as well. His latest is a traditional from Sterling and we talk about some of the DIY punk ethos of his writing as well as leveraging your skills and maybe the weirdest thing he's ever googled, all right?
00:04:29
Speaker
So let's get into it, CNFers. Are you ready? Here's episode number 303. Whoa. It's an age of palindromes, man.
00:04:53
Speaker
A funky little question to start things off. It just kind of hit me last week that I think it would be kind of fun to exercise. What is the weirdest thing you've ever Googled?
Curiosity & Knowledge Shaping
00:05:10
Speaker
Try not to incriminate myself. I cannot remember. And it's not taking a fifth.
00:05:24
Speaker
I think I've googled so many things I know particularly like you know my background is journalism So and you know, I used to be right about sex and intimacy Yeah, I still do so a lot of stuff that Google Professionally and unprofessionally I'd say the the weirdest stuff I've googled which is kind of reflective of my life of late is questions that my eight-year-old has I have an eight-year-old and a five-year-old both boys and Yeah, they asked some weird shit and
00:05:54
Speaker
I'm one of those kids, see, I'm already going back in the time. You got me on a time warp here. I'm one of those kids, it was one of those kids that loved Jeopardy. This was like the era of Encyclopedia Britannica. There was no real internet, unless you were part of the CIA or something. It would be 7 p.m. when I was growing up later in my childhood in Michigan.
00:06:20
Speaker
And, um, yeah, I always watch Jeopardy and my, my parents would be amazed at how many things I caught up. So I'm one of those people that absorbs things, but then two things happen. Number one, I'm older. So I don't remember as much stuff. Um, the second thing, which I've written about in some of my earlier books is that a lot of that's offloaded, right? Cause Google literally didn't exist. Like when I was a kid, Sergei and Larry, the two founders,
00:06:49
Speaker
I think they're around my age. So they're probably in elementary school, you know, I think ones from Serbia and other ones might be from America. So it's like, so it didn't even exist back then. So now I see my eldest who definitely has my kind of brain, but he doesn't have encyclopedic botanical and he doesn't have to remember this stuff. So he's coming to me and he's like, can we Google this?
00:07:13
Speaker
and it kind of goes on and on from there. So you can imagine the stuff that we Google. That was the longest answer ever, but that's kind of where I'm at right now. Oh no, that's great. One of the things that kind of triggered this was a few weeks ago I had to Google, you know, like, why does my dog eat cat shit?
00:07:32
Speaker
and he just finds cat shit from a neighborhood cat in the yard and I will catch him nosing at it in the ground and he'll I'll see him eating something and I get up close enough to him and sure enough he's like eating this thing like it's a meal on the ground and
00:07:47
Speaker
It grosses me out to no end and it's because sometimes they lack mental stimulation or they're bored, I guess, is a reason why. So that's been happening. And so that's what prompted this little discussion about like, you know, that was a pretty weird gross thing I had to Google. I wonder what other people are Googling to that comes up.
00:08:07
Speaker
You know what I love is,
Coaching Philosophy & Personal Success
00:08:10
Speaker
and this has been relatively recent, like I'd say over the last, what, five, 10 years, is the automatic filling, which I am mildly obsessed with that where it's like, you type in, what is this? And it'll be like, rash on my private parts or whatever. And it'll just go from there and it'll be like, whoa, okay. This is what people are into right now. Okay, got it.
00:08:35
Speaker
It's like, you know, I'm into pop culture, so it's like a peek into the psychology of the world, and it's like, oh, okay, that's where we're at right now. Okay. Well, speaking of pop culture, what is the first famous celebrity death you remember? Ooh, wow.
00:08:57
Speaker
You're bad in a thousand right now. No, the one that really hit me was, excuse me, was the Challenger explosion. I'm gonna mess up the year. It was the mid 80s and I was on safety patrol and I remember hearing about it. So it was that far back. So I had to be in fourth and fifth grade, probably fifth grade. Yeah, it sounds about right. Yeah, yeah. I was born in the mid 70s. So yeah, it sounds about right. What really messed it up was twofold.
00:09:24
Speaker
Number one, the fact that one of the people on there was actually a teacher. So being this equivalency, if that's the word, being like, wow, she's like my teacher, she could be gone. That's wild to have that moment when you're nine or 10 years old. So just that idea of death. I think the second part is that it was breaking news and that's so common nowadays.
00:09:50
Speaker
where it's just like, you know, there's probably 10 things that have happened that are trending on Twitter, you know, since we first started talking a few minutes ago. So, like, that's nothing. But to have breaking news, that's a big deal. One weird parallel is that I feel like it was the same era where there was breaking news that John Bon Jovi had AIDS. Oh, wow.
00:10:15
Speaker
And it was this big urban myth. And remember, we're like nine, 10 years old. But that idea, again, of being in the mid 80s, and like I said, some of my earlier books and some of the work I did for Playboy in the past was about technology, sexuality, and modern pop culture. And so as a historian, but also just to reflect on it,
00:10:40
Speaker
the amount of heavy discussion when I was like nine or 10 to like be considering, I haven't even hit puberty yet, but this is something that the older kids are talking about that could kill me. And at the time he had like the number one album in the world, you know, Sipperie when wet, of course, you know that. So it's like, and he's representing Jersey, which is where I'm originally from. So again, ended being this equivalency where I'm like, oh man, that's awful. And I haven't even started yet.
00:11:07
Speaker
So it's this kind of intensity between that. But those two moments, I feel like they're really close to each other. They are in my memory, where it feels like they happened on the same day, but I know they didn't.
00:11:18
Speaker
And obviously one of them was an urban myth because John Bon Jovi is alive and well, well into his sixties I think. But yeah, deep stuff to figure out how those memories kind of anchors of memory where you have these certain anchors of memory and they kind of almost set up a blueprint or a scaffolding for who you become. They don't go away. That was like decades ago. I still remember it like yesterday.
00:11:44
Speaker
Now, you coach non-traditional entrepreneurs, and maybe you can speak to what's a typical conversation that you have with most people who come to you for guidance, advice, and coaching. What do you feel like is in your way? And then probably by the second session, we start to uncover what's really in your way.
00:12:10
Speaker
Right. So shout out to Steven Pressfield, right? With idea of the resistance capital T capital R. Um, and some other work, Seth Godin's work, as far as with akimbo, a lot of the people that both you and I know and respect, but they were kind of forerunners of this idea of there's kind of two perspectives
Career Development & Lifelong Learning
00:12:30
Speaker
on coaching, I believe. The first perspective is you're essentially broken and there's some type of.
00:12:41
Speaker
rejiggering, pardon my French, some kind of unfucking that you need to do. I have a book on my shelf like, unfuck your brain, too. Exactly. This could be the whole shelf for a year. I don't have any of the books in there. I have other books about that, but the pleasurable kind, not the coaching one. Right. Tip the waitresses, try the wheel, right? So it's this basic idea of saying, you don't know how to help yourself.
00:13:10
Speaker
and these are the mistakes you made, I'm gonna help you fix them. And there's nothing wrong with that. Some people that have that approach or I'm cool with, they might be friends of mine, it's not us versus them. My coaching is a little bit different where I believe you have the capability to make an impact in the way that you wanna make an impact, how you want to serve.
00:13:41
Speaker
The challenge is that there's certain resources that you lack or a certain mindset reframing that needs to happen for you to realize that you're capable of it. So what I talk about when I'm intro to a person I'll potentially coach is I'll explain to them that my job isn't to fix you or to add. My job is actually to take away.
00:14:09
Speaker
So I'm going to work with you to take away the blocks that are preventing you from being the best self possible. And not everyone believes this. That's why I'm kind of taking my time on it. I believe that every single person is capable of making an impact.
00:14:26
Speaker
It sounds cliche and trite, but not everyone believes that. Right. Yeah. Some folks are like, nah, you know, they're not going to do anything. It seems very big and broad. Like, how can I make change on a big scale? And I think what you're eventually going to get at is you got to really go small and narrow and serve, you know, a very tight, tightly knit niche. And then maybe it gets big from there. But at first you got to think small. I agree 100 percent.
00:14:56
Speaker
And it's about making an impact that's deep rather than wide. Excuse me, that's one of the biggest challenges that I have. Not that I have, but that helping people on their journey when they end up working with me is
00:15:14
Speaker
It's saying, okay, I want to make it. It's either I don't trust that I can make an impact on the people that I want to serve. That's one. Or I want to make impact on everybody in the freaking world. And I want to do it now. Both of those aren't going to get you there because one of them, one of them reflects a lack of trust in the audience, accepting you for who you are.
00:15:39
Speaker
So my focus is on non-traditional entrepreneurs, the side hustlers, the solopreneurs, what have you. It's gotten a lot wider. That slice of pie has gotten a lot wider since the pandemic began a couple of years ago. But when I first started, I don't know, six, seven years ago, getting serious about coaching, that slice was like 1%, 2%. Not everybody wanted to mess with the side hustles. A lot of people didn't know what a side hustle was.
00:16:06
Speaker
You know, thanks to like Chris Gillenbaugh, who's a friend of mine, he did a book literally called Side Hustle. Like Marie Forleo, who I interviewed in the past. Like, I mean, there's awesome people again that preceded me that helped to put, put in the, in the side guys to say, side hustles are valuable. They're not just hustles. But then you have the other end again of people who want to make this huge impact. And they're so overwhelmed that they either don't know where to start, which is when they often come to me.
00:16:36
Speaker
or which is more concerning, but they don't know this, they're not watering down their product or their idea, their brand, whatever term you wanna use. They water down so much so that it's like NBC, CBS, ABC. It's like the sitcom with the laugh track, right? It's like, oh, okay, that's great. But, you know, with, you know, shout out to Lucille Ball, like that was record breaking, that was groundbreaking back then.
00:17:08
Speaker
And then they end up getting frustrated and start spiraling because then they're not attracting the real people they want to get. But sometimes they don't do the work and no disrespect with them, no judgment, but it is work. Doing the work, taking the time to saying, this is my audience. Right. Even the concept to be proof of concept and talk about my own journey, the idea of a non-traditional entrepreneur, like I made up that term and I think it took like two years for it to come into my brain.
00:17:30
Speaker
It's like, but now you're doing it because it's safe.
00:17:37
Speaker
So it was two years of trying to figure out what that squishy one, 2% piece of the pie. Now I knew it when I saw it, but I'm the one that has a coaching practice, so I have to get people in. You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, it's not like Amazon. It's not like Apple where I have a product to sell. It's like, who am I trying to attract to get in the door? And then you're simultaneously, I'm simultaneously trying to make a living too.
00:18:06
Speaker
being this triangulation that needs to happen. I help people with that triangulation. And the thing is, is that I have coaching clients that will come back years later. It's nice to have a practice for a little while. So it's like, you know, kind of like you have in returning guests. Yeah. Where it's like, the discussion kind of continues. It's like a through line. And I have some coaching clients that came back
00:18:29
Speaker
And luckily knock on wood, they didn't come back because whatever we talked about didn't work. Why they're coming back is that now they want to go to a different national line. That's great. So that triangulation never really ends. Yeah. You know, I know what happens to me every time I do a new book and career remix, suddenly the type of coaching clients in particular or potential coaching clients I'm talking to is changing. And so now that triangulation needs to happen again.
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah, and you you start at the in the very beginning of career remix to about, you know, nothing is wasted. You know, it means nothing is wasted. So all these skills that you've been able to accrue over the years, they can be just another arrow in the quiver as you look to reposition yourself and pivot and do whatever you can and not feel like everything behind you is a sunk cost. So how have you gotten people to wrestle with the idea of sunk costs?
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah, one of the big theories I have in there, and I'll humbly call them theories, because it's always a process, is the difference between a job and a career. So my argument is that the job is what whomever hired you, that's what they have. You leave your job, you quit, whatever the circumstances, you're not there anymore. There often will be someone else that will be in that position. You're not taking that shit with you.
00:19:56
Speaker
Your career, though, that's forever until you die, until you don't want to serve anymore, until you don't want to contribute anymore, until you can't contribute anymore.
00:20:06
Speaker
And so once you start to do that separation, then it's like, I spent 20 years at this job and now the job is over. They're not going to be sending me checks anymore. I don't have security. It's not feeding my ego. This isn't part of my identity anymore, which is a lot of my coaching is about our identities as, as creators and as, as servants to whomever we're serving.
Non-Traditional Career Paths & Resilience
00:20:27
Speaker
So I lost everything.
00:20:30
Speaker
And worse, I don't know who I am now. But if you look at it as a career, then it's like you had 20 years like an internship. I learned how to navigate this part of politics. I learned how to work under this type of leader. I learned how to manage my money that was coming in in a particular type of way, whatever the case may be. I'm trying to keep it broad because I think it applies to literally everyone. And so once you understand that, they can start to separate.
00:20:59
Speaker
and see the DNA of what you actually learned. It reminds me of a meme that I saw recently, probably over the past year. I think it was on LinkedIn, which is where all the interesting memes are at the moment. And there's a list of all these
00:21:17
Speaker
things like COO when it comes to managing resources, CFO when it comes to financial things and all that. At the end, of course, it said, this is what it's like to be a hometaker or a caretaker. You're not taking home. A caretaker, right? To be what we will call a housewife or a househusband back in the day.
00:21:44
Speaker
And it's very similar to that where it's like, you can dissect that with everything. Now, I think the really important part, which I think might be the undercurrent of your question too, is that sometimes we end up mixing up the value of what we're doing and what we can take away with it, with how society values it. So when I was talking about non-traditional entrepreneurs and I helped side hustlers, again, six, seven years ago when the bites of entrepreneur came up,
00:22:15
Speaker
People are like, all right, that's cute. Now, it's different. Now the societal view of saying, I should have more than one source of income, which myself, again, a lot of the acolytes, as well as a lot of the people that I consider mentors that I love and appreciate before me, were saying, you need to diversify. And people are like, no, I'm going to stay where I'm at for the next 40 years.
00:22:43
Speaker
and then get the proverbial gold watch, as I used to say. Two, two and a half years ago, that's starting to change. If I waited until... Yeah, Damon, that's wonderful. We love your idea of side hustles. Here's a bunch of people you can coach. Here's some speaking engagements. Go for it. If I waited for that, then I never would have done it. Until now. But what's beautiful about it is that
00:23:12
Speaker
And I'm giving myself as an example, because I want other people to recognize that. If you're putting in the work, people will see that and it will see the length of that work. It's really important because I think in our microwave culture, like we were talking about the, um, I think it was off the air when we were talking about it. And as far as like breaking news and certain details and stuff like that.
00:23:37
Speaker
it's easy to assume that your work isn't being recognized, that you're not gonna be rewarded. And I hate that word, but I can't think of a better word. You're not gonna be rewarded for going deep. But a lot of the work that I have right now on the keynotes I'm doing later on this year and some of the success that I've had over the past year, it's from people recognizing that I've been doing a deep dive in this since I sold my startup in 2014, 2015.
00:24:06
Speaker
And then that began the deep dive. So what however, what's that seven years, eight years. So I've been on the same through line as we say in storytelling, the same through line for going on a decade now. And people are honoring and respecting that. So when they ask if they can coach with me or we'll talk or they end up checking out my new book or my older ones.
00:24:30
Speaker
it's easier to have that conversation because that lineage is there. I guess that's the best way I can put it. Yeah, and lots of people, and rightfully so, are scared of uncertainty. And you write that uncertainty is your ally. So how can you get people more comfortable with it so they can sit with that uncertainty and use it as their ally instead of being so afraid of it?
00:24:59
Speaker
Yeah. And I deal with that a lot. I've been, have my own independent business for more than two decades now. So it's uncertainty as a friend, like it's not going to go away.
00:25:12
Speaker
no matter where you're at in your career, especially if you're trying to do work that's different and you're trying to serve a population or a group that other people, again, might not value or might not see until much later in your career. I think the key thing is to understand that uncertainty is actually your opportunity. So there are set things, societal things, and we have a much bigger, broader conversation about that, that are suddenly being questioned now. Like, I'll give a simple example.
00:25:42
Speaker
Like, people are actually implementing a four-day work week. Like, can you imagine that in 2019? Right. Like, this is stuff that I study, and I'm like, this couldn't have happened three years ago. Like...
00:25:56
Speaker
Microsoft is like, oh yeah, just come in four days a week. We know that our founder who has moved on was a super hard driver and wanted people to work 150 hours a week. He said this himself, so no shots at Bill Gates. He said this himself, and he regrets how he pushed people so hard. It's like this is the culture, the DNA of what we built 40-something years ago, but we're gonna have a four-day work week now. When the hell else is that gonna happen?
00:26:26
Speaker
So that's why I'm hype. I mean, you know, Brendan, like I did two books during the course of this pandemic. That's why I'm like, so much stuff is coming out of me right now because we have this rare opportunity to change the narrative. And people from, I don't know what you want to call it, the boardrooms, hidden boardrooms in Silicon Valley, over to, you know, small mom and pops, and the people in between that I support.
00:26:53
Speaker
They're all questioning the systems we have in place when it comes to work. When is this going to happen in our lifetime again? I think you and I are around the same age. I don't remember this happening in my lifetime. No, no, no. Right. So I'm all like, all right. So if again, if you're going to do some shit,
00:27:18
Speaker
This is damn decent shit. If not now, when things are going to go back to the norm and you want to have a piece, a conversation, um, a little.
00:27:28
Speaker
nugget within what that world's going to look like. At least I do. I can't speak for everybody else. But if you want to make an impact, now is absolutely the time. We have a deadline on this, you know? Yeah. Is there any part of you that is scared or worried when you hear, like, let's return to, we got to return to normal and there is no returning to normal. Yeah.
00:27:50
Speaker
I'm going to interrupt you right there. I got goose pimples or whatever right now. I was against that before the pandemic, so now I'm a hipster. I was all about disrupting normal before this was cool, man. That's right. I have the vinyl to it. Stop. That's how they used to listen to this. This is how it's supposed to be heard.
00:28:19
Speaker
Exactly. Let me get my A track out. And I'd be fine talking about music too, if you go down that path, you know, we can talk about music all day. But yeah, but I think the norms are overrated. I would call it status quo, because I think that's a little bit more judgmental. I think status quo is overrated.
00:28:42
Speaker
often because the status quo, which I talk about a little bit in career remix and a lot more in the predecessor, excuse me, built from now, where the status quo is often built by the people who are in power. And so if you're not in power, then maybe there's parts of the status quo that aren't fair to you or to the people that you represent. And it doesn't have to be a conversation about minorities,
00:29:12
Speaker
and underrepresented populations, which, you know, as a big tenant of my work and the coaching I do, it could be class systems. It could be, I know people from rural communities, and they get shat on so much by my colleagues who are in urban areas, which is where I grew up. I'm not from a rural community at all. I'm from Atlantic City, you know, and live in Las Vegas now.
00:29:38
Speaker
So that doesn't represent me, but I have good friends, people I'm super cool with, particularly rural down South, which I lived in New Orleans for a spell. And the rural down South folks, there's so much prejudice isn't quite the right word, but there's so much pushback as far as their intelligence level, how they communicate their view of the world, assumptions that are put on them. And we
Pandemic's Impact on Careers & Society
00:30:01
Speaker
kind of glide over that.
00:30:02
Speaker
So then if you're part of one of those communities, which most of us, most of us are not, you know, straight, affluent, wealthy, 0.1% white men in their sixties. If you're not part of that population and no offense to them, I'm cool with some of them. There's nothing wrong with that. I know some of them was cool. You know, I go to the tech conference every year, like it's all good. But if you're not part of that population,
00:30:33
Speaker
Like, I'll put it like this. You could be darn sure that whatever status quo there is, they will make sure that they're represented. So it doesn't make any sense if you're not part of that population to make sure that you don't have a seat at the table, as they say nowadays. Like, and now we have this literal apocalyptic, maybe not literal, but it could have been apocalyptic thing that's happening. And there's a lot of.
00:31:01
Speaker
A lot of pain. I've lost some folks, like it's real. And at the same time, we got a hell of an opportunity. So if we're going to go through all this shit, like I'm going to come out with something and hopefully it's a better world based on my little, you know, my little rocks in the river, you
Indie vs. Traditional Publishing
00:31:19
Speaker
know?
00:31:19
Speaker
Let's see. It was built from now, which came out about a year ago. Was there two years at this point? Exactly a year ago. Yeah. It was January 28th, I think of last year. So just over a year ago. Yeah. So you had built from now, which was wonderful. And then career remix, which just came out. And so what was the, at least the germ or the seed that got you thinking in terms of
00:31:43
Speaker
you know, remixing a career and then, you know, putting together, you know, a book of this nature inspired from so many people that we admire, like a Brene Browner, Seth Godin, and Cal Newport. A lot of these people you cite in this book. So, you know, what was the grist for that mill that really got you going on this? You know, it's a conversation of, I have my own publishing input, bring your worth, and that's what the previous books have been through.
00:32:06
Speaker
And then I'd actually connected with one of my old publishers, which is now called Union Square & Company. It's a subsidiary of Barnes & Noble. And we were talking, I was about to launch Build From Now. And when you have your own imprint, it's like having an indie label. Not being on an indie label, but having an indie label. So I don't know why the music parallels are flowing, but here we are.
00:32:30
Speaker
Speaking about the indie parallels, I love that. I love you citing that as a way to reframe the stigma around self-publishing. Because we admire it if you're an indie filmmaker or an indie musician, but the minute you say you're an indie writer, suddenly you're a hack.
00:32:52
Speaker
And not the and in the worst possible way So it's it's it's I love the echo and the ethos that you summon when you're like, it's your indie label. I dig that Yeah, it's it's I look at it as a punk a set. Yeah With respect to people who are really into punk. I respect punk, but I'm not like hardcore Obviously, I was a little bit young for punk. I was looking retroactively while I was a baby But very much that DIY
00:33:20
Speaker
We're going to do the acetates ourselves. I know the rap version of punk with the E40s, the two shorts, the masterpiece. I can just list it where they're literally selling stuff out the trunk. Those are the people that I admire. They were doing that when I was my son's age.
00:33:43
Speaker
And so that's what I'm doing and I've had some best sellers that way. So it was interesting to have this conversation with an old publisher of mine, cause we had did some work back in the day and they were like, there needs to be a conversation about people when they want to leave their job or figure out what to do with the job they have. And what's interesting is that I had the Bites as entrepreneur,
00:34:12
Speaker
Bring your worth, which, you know, end up becoming the name of the imprint and the latest built from now on my imprint. And they kind of represent like a cycle, like the bites is entrepreneur are.
00:34:28
Speaker
It's kind of like a parallel to Ryan Holiday's and Steph and Hanselman's The Daily Stoic, where it's like little one, two-page chapters that will get you through the day as far as having your own business or creating something. With Bring Your Worth, it's about you have to feel like you're worthy enough
00:34:48
Speaker
to be leading something that's different. And finally, built from now is saying, and very pandemic informed, is saying, here's the blueprint and some of the systems I use in my coaching practice for you to understand and maximize the resources that you got and how to build from now. None of them really talks to people who had a traditional nine to five and were trying to figure out if they should stay at their job or not.
00:35:15
Speaker
And it was like, wow, those are people that haven't been hearing what I've been trying to say. More importantly, whatever tools I have, whatever experiences I bring for my coaching practice and what have you, these are people that aren't getting access to those tools. So this is by far like the most mainstream career book I've ever written, because it's very much
00:35:39
Speaker
you're reading it while you're at a job that you need. Or you're hearing millions of people are leaving their jobs. And you're like, am I one of them? Should I be one of them? Is it time to go? That's the energy for it. And it feels very timely. Oh, for sure. Was there a different kind of pressure for you writing this book for a traditional publisher versus you writing several of your other books, if not dozens of your other books, that were just like,
00:36:09
Speaker
You know, for lack of a better term, just for you. But now you're like, oh, I'm kind of beholden to a boss here in a sense. What was that like for you? And you've had this experience in the past, but it's been a while since you published traditionally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm excited to add about a dozen books with traditional publishers, including the aforementioned Union Square. And then I went indie.
00:36:31
Speaker
And I started to have hits there. And I'm like, OK, I like this water over here. And I'm like, oh, wait. Wait a second. And so it was interesting where I went through that punk process, if I can call it that, of figuring out if I was selling out. So it was about a month where we were going back and forth. And I'm like, mm-hmm. My energy is pretty indie. So is that what I want? But I also recognize that this was one of those moments
00:37:00
Speaker
where it could be a bigger audience that was discussed. Not as far as just sales, but as far as like, again, getting the tools into the people that I wanted to serve. And if I was really about serving other people, then maybe I'd be willing to sacrifice some of that independence. And that required a big ego check. As far as how we worked with respect to the publisher, the editors I worked with, and I think a lot of it was my energy,
00:37:29
Speaker
I was like, this is the blueprint. And they're like, all right. And they rolled with it. So I respected that. But I mean, I'd also had a couple of best sellers on my own. So I think they honored and shout out to them because they didn't have to once we signed the contract. Shout out to them as far as honoring and being like, oh, Damon knows his audience. He knows the people that he coaches. I've coached a few hundred people at this point. So it's like, he's at that scale where it's like he knows who he's talking to.
00:37:59
Speaker
I think another part of it too, which I think is really important, is not just aiming for best seller first week. And best sellers that I've had, they've been slow burners. I had one first week best seller, maybe two. But most of them have been like building the audience.
00:38:19
Speaker
And so then understanding that I'm going for the long game versus I do a quick book on Queen Elizabeth and let's see how it does first week. Like that's not the energy that we've had. Luckily the energy hasn't changed. So it's been great. I have my audio book coming out in late March.
00:38:38
Speaker
Part of the reason why my voice is weak. Between the audiobook and I have a YouTube show of The Bring Your Worser every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And it's youtube.com slash Brown Damon. So between those two things, it's hard work. And actually, the audiobook was way harder because I wasn't doing it. You guys can't see it, but I have a closet to the left.
00:39:02
Speaker
And I usually do all my audio books in my closet, which Brendan, I'm sure you can relate to it some level. But actually being in the studio, I was in the studio at Downtown Las Vegas, and the standard they had, I'm gonna be honest with you, was way higher than I had as a, you know, a DIY, punk, indie, whatever, creator. And my audio books have done well, I'm proud of them. Y'all can grab them, they sound great. But this new audio book is like,
00:39:32
Speaker
You know, I'm in the studio like Jay-Z is, and it's different.
Owning Your Story & Coaching Impact
00:39:36
Speaker
Well, you mentioned a moment ago about checking your ego. And there's a moment too early, earlier in your book where you write, what gets me excited is that my confidence doesn't come from ego. It comes from owning my story. And what is it about your story and your experiences that does give you that confidence? The simplest way I can put it is that it's mine.
00:40:01
Speaker
Like no one else, again, I've been, when I was much younger, I was fired from jobs and stuff like that. Me too. It's probably why we do what we do. I'm unhireable, man. There you go. I was just saying that to my friends the other day. I got a bunch of friends, we're all unhireable. I'm just saying that my story is mine. And so my story is being
00:40:27
Speaker
and African-American stay-at-home dad with two precocious boys who has gone on this journey of creating two startups without any startup background and the second one becoming popular enough to get sold about a year later and then realizing the path that I was on doing startups while being a stay-at-home dad with a baby at home. That represented this ethos, this ethic
00:40:57
Speaker
Again, the zeitgeist, if I can use that word again, of folks who represented non-traditional entrepreneurship. So not only am I supporting them, but I'm also proof of concept because not everyone has that kind of story. And when I started that journey, I didn't know anyone else that was doing that. But for me to own that story, for me to have that story, at this point for that to become part of my narrative, I needed to start on that journey alone.
00:41:25
Speaker
Like there was no Bites as Entrepreneur, which is, I think it might've been Toni Morrison who said, you know, if there's a story that you want to read, then you have to write it. That's one of the things that propels a lot of us into writing. And I've taken that into a bigger scale or a different scale, you know, with my coaching, with my keynotes, with the Bring Your Words show.
00:41:49
Speaker
And that's something that I'm not going to run into someone on the street and be like, they're going to be like, oh, yeah, I did the exact same thing seven years. Probably not. You know what I mean? And it's nothing wrong with that. It's not like you have to be wholly original. I know other folks who are
00:42:07
Speaker
who are San Olm dads and moms who do startups. In fact, there's whole networks around them. There's one called the Black Parentpreneur Network, which I highly recommend. Shout out to them. They've been super supportive. But organizations and groups and even individuals like that, we are few and far in between. The more you can lean into that unique voice, whether it's writing or what have you,
00:42:31
Speaker
the more you're able to go deeper and say, this is my particular journey. This is my particular voice. This is something that can't be duplicated. And when I get into a career remix, and the previous books too, is that the deeper you go into that voice, the more you make a bulletproof career. And so when I'm hired as a coach, coaching is really popular nowadays. There's like way more coaches than when I started a handful of years ago.
00:42:59
Speaker
But I still have an active practice because my voice and my coaching style is unique. And if I was trying to appeal to masses back when, you know, I was trying to break together two dimes in my coaching practice, if I watered things down, then I wouldn't have the audience and be able to serve as many people as I do today.
00:43:21
Speaker
And so that's what I mean by owning your story, you know? Absolutely. And one more question for you, Damon, as we wind down, I noticed that you've got an amazing painting of James Baldwin over your left shoulder. I do. In what ways does he most inspire you?
00:43:55
Speaker
He was willing and still willing, I would say, because I feel like he's still alive. Not literally, but in spirit. He's willing to say what needed to be said. And I want to say he passed away. Oh my gosh. I was a kid, I think. So I think he passed away in the eighties. What he said still is still vibrating. It's like an echo.
00:44:25
Speaker
I mean, my kids, again, who are eight and five, they know about James Baldwin. Even before I got the, I was fortunate enough to get gifted the painting over the holidays. And so I think that's what we do as writers, as creators, the impact. Now, I think the key thing is that, and there's a big part of my coaching practice, big part of my books, and hopefully it comes across, is that the goal isn't to be famous.
00:44:49
Speaker
And the goal isn't to necessarily impact millions or in his case, like billions of people. That's not the goal. The goal is to impact. Again, I've got a couple of best sellers. I've done four TED talks. I've had my share of success, but the amount of people that I've actually impacted directly in the thousands. And I'm okay with that. No, thank you. That's very kind. But it could be like a dozen people.
00:45:18
Speaker
And I'd be okay with that. Provided I could still provide for my family. Let's be clear. Money's still important. I'm not trying to say I don't want to go retrograde. But actually having an impact on the people that you plan on impacting. And here's one really quick addition to your question. I've been in the coaching game, whatever, environment, whatever, for long enough
00:45:47
Speaker
where I'm starting to see the impact of the people that I've coached. And now I have stories. They started to bring a tear to my eye when they're making such an impact. They've respected me, they've honored me, but I don't need to like get shouted out every time they have a victory. That's what I mean by impact. And so they're impacting people on a scale way beyond mind. Even though, you know, thank you for the honor as far as the thousands of people that have impacted, but they're like doing tens of thousands.
00:46:17
Speaker
That's what I mean. Like that's the work. And so it could be two, three, four or five people you impact, which is how I started my coaching a handful of years ago. But then those people are now impacting millions. So it doesn't have to be about you.
00:46:33
Speaker
has to be about the impact to the people that you serve and what they end up doing. Very nice. Well, Damon, always a pleasure to get to talk to you. And as you well know, you and I could just sit around and talk for hours. It's a pleasure to have these conversations, and of course, to read your work, which is of such great service to everybody who's lucky enough to be able to pick up your work. So thanks for everything you do, and thanks for coming back on the show, man. It was so good to catch up.
00:47:04
Speaker
and then thanks for having so come to the end thanks to damon for coming back on the show first third rodeo again name of the book is career remix get the gig you want with the skills you've got a nice ring to subscribe to the show so
Episode Wrap-Up & Audience Engagement
00:47:28
Speaker
you don't even have to think about it man
00:47:30
Speaker
We're everywhere, CNFers. And if you have a moment, consider leaving a kinder view on Apple Podcasts or a rating on Spotify. And of course, you can keep the conversation going at CNF Pod on Twitter at Creative Nonfiction Podcasts on Instagram. For you regulars out there, you know I've been cranking on this book proposal and I think I could be done this weekend. And I've been grinding on this one sample chapter. And let me tell you, I'm in it, man. I'm like in it.
00:47:59
Speaker
Having some of the most fun I've ever had writing because I'm lifting things from newspaper archives and internalizing quotes and bringing this character to life in a way I've really never seen done before. Maybe it has been done before but I haven't seen it and I've been kind of researching this cat for a while.
00:48:18
Speaker
I've got some feelers out for some key figures to help imbue this particular chapter. And of course, the book at large was something originally reported. Also, the people I'm looking to talk to I really haven't seen, quoted, and spoken to elsewhere also. So they're just going to have so much to offer. I know it.
00:48:39
Speaker
And when it comes to Google scans and newspapers.com, I can't help but feel a little lazy when all I'm doing is culling stuff from those sources. To get people on the phone and doing some of that legwork, that's reporting. That's exciting. And then it feels like effort. That feels like work. Like you're not just typing things into Google and be like, oh, that's cool. And you repurpose it.
00:49:04
Speaker
You know, there's something to be said, at least for me. Makes me feel like I'm actually doing some heavy lifting, and you know I love to lift. I'll have more to, a lot more of that kind of stuff to do when I secure a contract, but now, you know, this newspaper work, making things come to life is the best I can do with what I've got, and I'm really enjoying it. Sinking in, man. In the pocket. Like, I recreated this event with, through the reports,
00:49:33
Speaker
through a few newspaper stores. I'm like, oh, this is cool. I got some great quotes. I was able to just write in such a way where it feels kind of novelistic, but it's coming straight from those newspapers. But then I found, just haphazardly, I found a photograph from this event from a different kind of angle.
00:49:53
Speaker
So I went into the the document into the chapter and I was able to add Some more color like what some of the people were wearing how they were cheering from the fence Yeah, like my friend Glenn Stout says this kind of historical recreation and you're finding things from different newspaper accounts and photographs It's like a 3d printer where it all starts to take on more and more of a true shape But you find that little extra detail and it just starts to pop really starts to come alive
00:50:23
Speaker
It's awesome. I'm not ready to go public with this thing yet, but I will be excited to share, for I'm not going to would. I hope I'll have some good news to share, and that I can really talk about some of the nitty-gritty elements of it, which could be some good parting shot fodder as a truly in the research and writing process of a book of narrative nonfiction, which is my purview.
00:50:51
Speaker
But I'm starting to feel the heat too. I'm not the only person riding this particular wave. I do think I'm in the front. I have to believe I'm in front. Otherwise, I'll go insane. So in that case, I don't have any more time to waste seeing efforts. I've got work to do. So do me the solid and stay wild seeing efforts. And if you can't do interviews, see ya.
00:51:36
Speaker
you