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The Art of Indie Game Development with Patrick Jesseman
86 Plays4 months ago
Description: In this episode, Greg Posner chats with Patrick Jesseman, founder of Alkemi Labz. They discuss the intricacies of indie game development, the importance of a small, dedicated team, and the innovative techniques used to create high-quality games. Patrick shares his journey from film to game development and highlights the tools and strategies that make Alkemi Labz' projects stand out.
Main Topics and Timestamps:
- 01:00: Transition from film to game development
- 02:30: Innovative techniques in indie game development
- 11:00: Importance of a small, agile team
- 20:00: The impact of new tools and technologies
- 30:00: Overcoming industry challenges
Key Topics:
- Efficient Use of Small Teams: Leveraging a small, focused team for maximum impact
Balancing roles and responsibilities among team members - Utilizing Advanced Tools: Implementing tools like Unreal Engine, Nanite, and Lumen
Benefits of using high-quality assets and AI-driven tools - Story-Driven Game Development: Combining cinematic storytelling with interactive gameplay
Creating immersive narratives and engaging player experiences - Overcoming Industry Challenges: Navigating the complexities of indie game production
Strategies for maintaining creativity and innovation under constraints - Community and Collaboration: Building a supportive indie game development community
Collaborating with other developers and tech innovators
Guest Bio: Patrick Jesseman is the founder of Alkemi Labz, a cutting-edge indie game studio known for its innovative use of technology and cinematic storytelling. With a background in film and extensive experience in game development, Patrick brings a unique perspective to the industry.
Resources and Links:
- Alkemi Labz
- Visit our Player Engage website for more information.
- Follow Patrick Jesseman on LinkedIn.
- Subscribe to the Player Engage Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube.
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Transcript
Introduction of Patrick Jasmine and Alchemy Labs
00:00:07
Speaker
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Player Engage podcast. Today, we are joined by Patrick Jasmine. He is the founder of Alchemy Labs, and I'm really excited because they're building a really cool game that I'm excited to start talking about and being able to hear his side of it. ah he' He's been in creat creating different types of assets from videos to to all different types of visuals ah for years now. So again, we're going to dive into kind of both the media side of things as well as the gaming side of things. So Patrick, Thank you so much for joining me today. We've had a lot of calls and I'm excited about this and learning more. So ah before we go on, anything you want to say about yourself?
Gaming Developments in Wisconsin
00:00:41
Speaker
No, I think, of you know, ah I'm just happy to be on with you and spread the good news and really make some moves here in Wisconsin like what we're trying to do.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, you ah you're building ah your team. We'll call it a team for now, right? And you'll go from there. It is a team out in the Wisconsin. You're working ah supporting Midwest, the Midwest, Midwest Games, and all these different companies and studios out there. And it's exciting to be able to see more more areas being able to embrace gaming and teach gaming as well, technology.
Interactive Movie Project 217
00:01:11
Speaker
Before we kind of dive deep into the podcast, you want to kind of give us a high level overview of what you guys are building it. Alchemy Labs and what people can expect. So it's sort of um too fast, if you will, ah but double edged, you can call it. um So the main thing that we're talking about right now is 217. We are a ah sort of
00:01:33
Speaker
Advanced indie studio also we work with real high-end stuff like motion tracking and facial tracking and and ah All this kind of stuff um that you typically wouldn't see in the indie studio type thing so we often get confused a lot of times um because of the product that we that we're working with. So 217 is, I guess this let's back up a little bit. So my background is in film, a cinematographer and a director. We decided just, I think I got with a couple of people and we decided, what if we made an interactive movie? And i so i have I have the perfect already idea from a film I did.
00:02:15
Speaker
before this that i wrote and directed in 2009 so i i mean i have all the rights to it and so they were very interested and basically what it is is it's a kind of survival thriller um i don't want to say like survival horror because it's not really core like in the way you think of it like we're zombies and all this kind of stuff there's there's these two guys uh very human um in fact we use metahumans um and motion capture to uh you know really bring them to life and and the the the and the you wake up in the car that's where you first take over the car i'm the first to go to the game and you're able to ah talk as best as you can and try to leave for your life um and it's just a very intense intimate situation with to which you uh you know spoiler alert
Survival Thriller Game Details
00:03:50
Speaker
It doesn't really help. So you wake up again ah at the compound um in the back of the car, just as he had stepped out to go get the place ready to come grab you. You wake up and bail out into the woods and we give you the controller. And at that point in time, until the sun comes up, ah you're being mercilessly hunted ah by these guys. And they have all kinds of shirts up their sleeve to come get you. So it's not a game, per se, like you would think a normal game. What I love is ah it's an indie, you're you're there to say it's an indie and by the definition of an indie, right? A smaller studio building the game it is. But the first time I remember seeing your game and I was on LinkedIn, I saw this and it looked like a AAA masterpiece. I mean, you're using tools, you're using your background and your previous assets that you've had to kind of
00:04:40
Speaker
And the skills that you just had over time to build this out. And I saw this, I was like, Oh my God, this looks stunning. And then four be few weeks later you came out with another one. And and then we spoke and and you kind of blew my mind when you talked about your team, how you're doing this. Cause you know, you talk about AAA studios, right? And you see all the times that games are all these new games that are coming out that take 30 to five or even longer years to
Small Teams vs. Large Teams in Game Development
00:05:02
Speaker
come out. And it's just like, great, I'm going to be playing this by the time I'm 40 something like fantastic. I'm so excited. But like, tell me a little bit about the team that's working on this so you can kind of give it an idea of how our how many people it takes to build a game. Well, see, I think I think a lot of times when it comes to um development of
00:05:23
Speaker
ah these games theirs for lack a better word often politics type thing involved where certain thresholds have to be passed there's there's certain quotas that have to be met in order to move the ball forward and those are kind of overseen by investors and stuff so i guess that the best way to kind of put it and this is if you notice all of a sudden they're doing construction work, you know not far from your house, like in between your house and work, and you see this every day, and almost every time you pass by, there's like one guy working and there's like seven dudes we't doing eight. They have to have that
00:05:57
Speaker
boda in order to get the job in the first place so they place a bid my construction alber he is facing a bit and in order to to do this we have to meet the certain criteria yeah have excellent amount of employees and this and that and and and i think that oftentimes is part of the convolution Um, of the way I, I seen that could be completely wrong, right? I could just, um, I'm looking at this from an outside perspective. Again, I'm a filmmaker. Um, the way we make movies is really different than the way we make games. Although we're kind of trying to change that a little bit, but nonetheless, um, you will, I believe in talent. I think all the talent is great. I believe in having.
00:06:39
Speaker
diversified eyes on the project and and and different input and all that i think that's really fantastic but i think there ah point that you have to get to where it's just unnecessary like this is this is just simply unnecessary like you can do what they really lean team what typically would take of a large team and and that's kind of I guess why the perception of what we're doing that that's got to have a big theme and in fact there's there's actually everything you've seen already is is only just three of us and in fact to put the cherry on top it's me and my two sons
00:07:17
Speaker
um who are facilitating everything you see so if you go and you look at the website and'm sure you'll probably have a link to the trailer whatever ah that that's you know and and last saying this to like brag what what i'm saying is this the idea that this would be um that there's no way you could do that i beg to differ i i just say take a look at what we're doing and yes it is a little bit vague you know you don't that there's there's no you can't really tell exactly what's going on yet but that's my strategy if um you are in and i know you obviously are and into the gaming industry and stuff you see a lot of indie stuff and um one thing that just came out that i think was exciting to everybody was called on record uh and it's um like a police body cam photo realist really awesome and uh so they they showed some footage of it and then all of a sudden
00:08:06
Speaker
On the marketplace. There's another game just like it um and it's Making the killing um and and the thing is it's a small team who's using already available assets from marketplace or from two So several places that I don't want to I don't want to call them out. They're great assets and I the team is great but what I guess kind of what I'm getting at is if you have a a very capable team and you can get to the assets, you can create a very powerful experience where we had people before where you you add a modeler who then passed it off to the UV guy who did the retopology to make sure that the actual texture artists now with three people in it can do their job who's then passed on to like
00:09:04
Speaker
land, the the actual like environment or lighting.
Creativity and Tool Utilization in Game Development
00:09:08
Speaker
And there's like this whole, to me, I think, convoluted process. um I tell one of my guys, one one of my sons, I say, listen, we need this. And they go, OK, no problem. And they can execute. whatever it is that I ask them from beginning to end and we can use it as a game ready asset inside. So if you look at the trailer again, maybe those assets were made by actually a 16 year old. So to to think that we need these massive teams and I'm not saying that there's a there's a place for all that. I'm not saying don't do away with Hollywood blockbusters and let's only focus on guys that are filming on their iPhones and stuff.
00:09:52
Speaker
I'm not saying that at all, but what I'm saying is don't negate them. Because an iPhone, um and we've proven before with corporate and stuff, we filmed full commercials on iPhones and they've been broadcast television. So it's it's not so much of what you have, it's how you use it. What what you have is important as well. But if you give Pablo Caso some crayons, he's still going to make the Picasso regardless. I took a bunch of notes. I love everything that you're saying. I mean, I think that the analogy you just used really clicked with me, right? The fact that
00:10:23
Speaker
I remember years ago watching an episode of House on TV that they claimed was filmed, not claimed, it was filmed on the iPhone and you've seen commercials filmed on iPhone, right? And it looked exactly like the show you would normally watch. right It's not different. So ah you said it that you are almost removing the hierarchy that exists from within gaming because it's all so at times the struggle to get things from one thing to the next thing because there's a hierarchy above you and everyone's trying to play by the chain. and You know, you're you're consolidating these steps that these studios will take and and slimming them down, making them leaner. And I think that's fantastic. And I want to go into the tools that will help you with that. Maybe we could talk through some of the tools. But before we go there,
00:11:04
Speaker
You're making it leaner. You're making it quicker. That's awesome. On the outside, it all sounds perfect. Everything's going great. And um we're going to link to it because honestly, and I'm not blowing smoke to any of my listeners, this game looks phenomenal. Like it really does. The thing is what you don't see is that you still do have struggles. You have three people and you're creating a damn fine looking game. But there's struggles because seeing is believing, but not everyone's going to believe what you're doing, right? So can you talk to some of the other it's not really politics, right? But you're talking to different people. What are these struggles that you still face, even with a lean team that can create things fairly quick? So just real quick, I just want to kind of circle back on
Challenges and Successes of Small Game Development Teams
00:11:45
Speaker
what you said. I'm not trying to do away with what I'm trying to do is compliment.
00:11:50
Speaker
It doesn't have to be this way. Look, we we can do it this way. And there's there's there's plenty of examples that are successful doing it right now. Just just want to say that. So with that said, again, it kind of goes back to your tool set. What are you using? What are you doing? You could go to the Dollar Tree or something and probably get like a little ratchet set and like work on your car. Theoretically, it's not the most efficient or effective way to do it, but but you can do it. then then you have like pneumatic drills and stuff, who were you know, there are tens of thousands of dollars, buts then the whole thing comes right apart. And then there's somewhere in between. But in that in between gap, there's groups of people. and
00:12:36
Speaker
who identify an issue, who identify a full or identify a problem. Maybe not a problem, like it's a bad problem, but hey, how could we make that better? Kind of brings me onto the team at Dash, at Polygonflow. It's one of the tools that that we use. So what was previously seen as either A, just impossible, be impossible within the time frame you're trying to do. Or see just way too expensive to even contemplate. And because of all those factors, even if you could get your hands on the stuff to try to implement it with, you know, ah this is kind of a ah very dicey area here.
00:13:20
Speaker
But owning the student you can see behind me, you know, we we have a ah pretty strong facility here. We're able to reach out to these companies and build relationships and foster these positive influential relationships on both sides and Being able to take a really cool things first of all like unreal engine if you've seen yeah Five any iteration of five is wildly impressive by fours Just I mean game changer. That's one of the reasons we can do what we do first of all so thanks to Nana night because I'm not a professional modeler and mean I I kind of i am but like not like to the level that these guys are you don't need to do that anymore we convert it to nanite and you can have 10 showing tries on it doesn't matter that they won't really do anything so that really frees up the creative process there
00:14:15
Speaker
Now you have something like Dash, which is a ah really awesome scatter tool with AI capabilities and it just really streamlines your workflow and makes it
The Role of AI and Creativity in Game Development
00:14:25
Speaker
enjoyable. Like not even enjoyable, it makes it exciting to create. And i I think you saw that when I when i showed you just how incredible um it really is. A couple of types on something and move the mouse around and like, this is wild. So the tools are there. What really is gonna need to stand out and this is where I think AI will probably not be able to keep up with us as humans, it's the actual creativeness behind it. What is the story?
00:14:55
Speaker
what are what is the the whole interaction, what is it for me? So it doesn't matter what that is. You know, if you're creating a theme park attraction, a little ride that goes around in a little lazy river and you just look at stuff as you go, all the detail has to still go into the way the lights go on that thing and just what the experience is. And maybe if you go through, oh, that smells kind of like blueberries. Oh, that's cool. And you just, it's <unk> all part of the experience. So if you could take these really awesome tools, combine them all to make them,
00:15:27
Speaker
really great experience. And then in the meantime, while you're doing this, identify that it's not necessary to have a huge team. So let's explore that. And then we end up putting on a product like what you're seeing and actually creating excitement with it with just three of us. you know there is I remember a story from a long time ago that it was always believed that the four-minute mile couldn't be beaten. that It was just an impossible feat for anyone to run a mile than four minutes. It was just proven. I'm looking it up now, 1950s, someone did it in under three minutes, proving that even though anyone everyone always thought that this was an impossible feat,
00:16:06
Speaker
that it is possible. You just need to find the right dedication, the right tools, the right people. In this case, maybe it was a specific pair of shoes that helped him run it, right? You're taking a look at all these different tools and and taking what wasn't possible and you're creating your own little, what I'd like to say is like an orchestra of making all these tools sing and tell talk together. And that's again, the human element of it. You're not going to tell the computer to draw a Picasso. It's not going to be a Picasso, even though if you give Picasso himself a crayon, he will be able to do it. You're going to need that human element to come in and actually create that story, help that story sing, right? Maybe you will be able to do it all with AI, but I think you're going to see these generic AI games that are very predictable because
00:16:46
Speaker
it's missing episodes once you have that human element that can't be replaced right i think that's that's what makes a difference and that's why i love i mean patrick and i jumped on a call a couple of days ago and he showed me the tools that he was using and i am in no way an unreal five developer but it makes anyone who wants to put any time and effort into it become someone that can create something. And yes, quite frankly, your first game you're going to create is probably going to be crap, but it's going to be something that you created. Right. And then you can become more comfortable with those tools. When he was showing me these tools like Dash, like it was nuts on how easy he was taking these trees and just creating a forest in front of my eyes in the 10 minutes that we were talking to show me how quickly and easily it was. So not just the forest, but what path that meander through and and and and a little lake. I mean, you could do this in like five minutes. And it's nuts. I mean, youre
00:17:37
Speaker
You know, we're living in this world where AI is starting to take over in different places, right? And I know this isn't necessarily AI in a way, but it's just showing how there's tools out there in almost any position that can help improve your efficiency, make you better at what you do. And I love how you're doing that. And not only that, ah the thing I love the most from our first conversation was that you're teaching your children this and I've as a having two kids of my own and and I know you feel the same way is that whether or not 217 is a success or is not your children are going to get these skills that are going to be
00:18:12
Speaker
For lack of better words, future proof and allowed them to continue to grow in this field and they're going to be a step above people who who are just still doing it. For lack of better words, the old fashioned way. and I don't know a better way to put it.
Working with Family in Game Development
00:18:24
Speaker
But but can you talk about your dynamic with your children? How did they get involved? How do they do they like working with dad? Is he a pain in the ass? Um, well, I mean, I can probably unequivocally say, yeah, yeah, because, you know, I'm, I'm not the easiest to work with. I know because I, I'm very demanding, you know, I have an, I have a mission. I know what we're after. I know how to create excitement and how to make the wow factor. So to translate that to to them is really where it was important for me.
00:18:58
Speaker
not to teach them how to parrot, but to show them these tools do this kind of like what I did with you with that. These tools can do this. Now go and play with. There's nothing you can do wrong. You're not going to blow up the computer. For some reason, we got to reinstall everything from scratch. We'll do it. Not a problem, but just go and experiment. Have fun and see what it does and to watch them start to it's like their their inner like energy meter starts to starts to rise as you can just kind of wash over their shoulder as they're doing stuff and they're wow oh oh hey and now they're talking to each other got two brothers
00:19:38
Speaker
who were at that age where they, you know, brothers like to fight and stuff. And there will be paid you see this day and and look and if you can again see behind me so like right here is right underneath the main screen is my oldest. I sit right over there and then the youngest this screen is right there. we can project everything onto that screen. So if we're working and we come into an issue, all we do is project onto the screen and we can all discuss it and help each other as as as a team, as opposed to trying to figure it out on your own or whatever. So I think us being all in one spot, having a like mind, and then the the main thing is to nurture.
00:20:18
Speaker
Okay, so if you go outside and you take a seat, you just put it in the ground, you're like, I'm good for next for next summer. That's probably not gonna work. You have to nurture, you gotta water it, you gotta fertilize it and you know make make sure there's no weeds around it and you have to care for it. And that's the thing with with these guys, my whole plan is to nurture their creative talent, nerve nurture their natural ability and not tell them, no, no, no, you're doing it wrong, it's gotta be like this. like, okay, well, I didn't think it was gonna be like that. That wasn't my plan, but I'm very impressed. Let's use it. And then you just watch them level up. So to encourage them is like giving them, ah you know, so super vitamins or something, just watching them grow. Unreal is free.
00:21:05
Speaker
dash you can try it for free right now and just go to polygon ah flow.io and you can download it for free along with unreal epic has all kinds of great stuff like megascans assets that you can get um and you start using all these things they're free start watches some tutorials there's some really great tutorials out there and it's unlike it ever was before previously you had to go to some school and then even then they did it was this very guarded knowledge and to to to even get into like try i want program for sony or whatever good luck like this is just not a this is this is a private club you're not invited to and epic said no nope I want to see how many people out there can do some creative stuff. Let's empower them, let's encourage them, and and give them all the cool tools, and and see what they come up with. So, the people who move before, their idea is it has to be this way, in this order. And the effort goes, nah, it doesn't have to be that way.
00:22:09
Speaker
And then we go, oh, it doesn't have to be that way. Then we start having a little bit of that misunderstanding that you were talking about where people don't really get it because there's no way you and your sons created that thing. There's just three of you guys and I'm not buying it. And that's where the hard sell comes in. I actually have to get them on the phone and show them like what I showed you. Here's why. And then you see their eyes light up and their gears start moving. So I think a lot of it is education. It's awareness. And that's what, you know, people like Ben Cavallo and the team over at Titletown 10, Lost Boys Interactive, of course, the Wisconsin Games Alliance, AJ over there, awesome guy. So you have all these guys that are that are teaming up to show that nothing is wrong. there's no There's no way about this. The only thing wrong is all these layoffs.
00:22:57
Speaker
let's Let's not buy out a studio, get their hopes all up, let them buy cars and get signed up for apartments and stuff, and then just take everything out from underneath them and say, you know, hey, it didn't work. but Let's stop doing that part. But if it takes 20 guys and your team is 30 people and you do, that's fantastic. But if you have a deaf team that's one person and she's killing it with her stuff, why would we tell her no? And that's where, like I said, Midwest Games coming to place. And Ben says, no, but that's not how it's gonna be. Let me see what you have. And you should see some of the stuff they have on their roster over there. It's really awesome. So change is starting here in the Midwest. And you know it's already, you got down there, the IGA down in Georgia, they're they're doing awesome stuff as well. I'll be on the follow Willem tomorrow. ah You can see him ah on on podcasts and stuff. So they're doing they're teaching from a whole different perspective.
00:23:54
Speaker
So the paradigm has kind of shifted already, and you've either caught up where you haven't. And if you haven't, you you probably should.
Midwest as a Gaming Innovation Hub
00:24:02
Speaker
If you have, you just got on the boat, there's 9 million more layers. So every day, these cool tech tech tech companies and in teams are creating new plugins and new ways to do this and new way. And it's amazing. Sorry, I'll talk forever. Yeah, no, you know, it's I love it. i'm Sorry, I've been taking notes as you go because I just, you know, the thing that you sound like is you're a leader and a good leader, right? Because you so you lead by example. And yes, it's your sons and maybe that makes it even harder. But when you look at a ah company that's great, you see the CEO leading by example, you see him jumping in or her jumping in when they need to when they need to do work, they're not afraid to get their hands dirty. And and
00:24:43
Speaker
you're teaching, you're showing how you do with it, and you're an educator, you're a leader, you're doing all this, and it's phenomenal, and you're doing it in the Midwest, where maybe the gaming scene hasn't been the biggest, but leaders like yourself and Ben, right? You guys are working to build up this gaming scene, right? So can you kind of give and our audience, what is Tidal Town Tech? you You talk about them a lot, and and you're a big proponent in pushing for them. What is Tidal Town Tech, and how are they going to help the Midwest become the gaming hub? So my way of kind of thinking of Title Town Tech is if, do you play like fantasy football or sports or anything like that? Sure do. Okay. So just imagine you could roster off like the best guys, right? The best VC, the best management team of just innovators in the way they think.
00:25:30
Speaker
And then you you put them all together. And then you take something like the Green Bay Packers and you have them back in it. And then it's backed by Microsoft. And then you take this X-Men Alliance and you put them in one roof. That's Title Town Tech. So they're roster of companies that they're working with and partners already. They're looking for change. And that's why they saw it in Ben. they they see if you just look at the roster of stuff they're doing. It's really awesome. If you go to titlescounttech.com, you look at their portfolio, you can see them. It's just, it's inspiration. It's what it is. this The second you step within this really cool building and just, it's right in Tidal Town, right next to Lambo Stadium. and I mean, just it's rit's just, it it's really cool.
00:26:16
Speaker
And that culture that they're cultivating there. ah But it's it's it's very it's just all inspiring. You go on there and you immediately feel. Oh, automate it. Like you your if you have any sort of business acumen at all, it's a danger to step in there because your gears start going like real fast. So um to have them backing creatives and leaders who are really intent on initiating this this this change, who have identified where the change needs to be,
00:26:51
Speaker
And they're like, yeah, we believe in you. I mean, it like it is really, like i like I keep saying his name a lot, but Ben is like, the guy is just, he's inspiring to come from you know Netflix and 2K and Blizzard and be like, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm going to change the way that and and he didn't just say it or talk about it. He goes and he brings it to Title Town Tech. People like Cordero Barthe who was like, yeah, let's do this. This is how change happens. This is change in real time. like Like put on your shades because it's about to get real bright in you. Yeah, I love it. yeah You know, there's very I'm going to say there's very few people that actually motivate and actually
00:27:32
Speaker
lead by example, and I have a mentor, Ed, who who does the same thing that when he says something, he'll go out and he'll make the right connections and Ben is a similar way. and It's fascinating to watch someone like that work because I tell myself I don't have the guts or courage to do what that person is doing. It's amazing how they're making these networking connections, right? And Ben is that type of individual that's out there promoting motivating getting everyone in the midwest excited about gaming like who who would think that green bay is the place to be to go make video games in the midwest and then you told me about title time when you go to the website like like you mentioned you have the big glass looking building that's overlooking lambo it looks like it's just like wow like,
00:28:13
Speaker
and yeah microsoft's a big sponsor right and you got all these companies is just like why are they are doing it and you are a part of it as well right and you're coming from your your film. Background right and i'm curious how does the film background help you when you make this transition the second part of that question will be what new skill sets did you need to teach yourself. coming into
Transitioning from Film to Games
00:28:37
Speaker
gaming. so i think all this comes from identification really um kind of again circlelin back to like ben again you know
00:28:45
Speaker
Identifying, whatever it is, identifying a way to make it better, identifying a deficiency, um identifying that there's too much and we need to back down a little bit, whatever, it's identification, identification is very important. So, when kind of transferring over from film to kind of go back to that answer, I was looking, I was looking for, you know, you the yellow book, it it says, like, transitioning from film to games for dummies. It doesn't exist. I tried, I googled and then I'm done. But the there' there's you know there there was no roadmap for us. So we figured, all right, well, let's be pioneers, right? And who's to tell us no? That's really what it is. You can't tell me I can't do it this way.
00:29:28
Speaker
because look, and they go, wow, that's really awesome. So again, I think it's really about education and about awareness is very, very important. And that's part of the identification. um I think that's why Green Bay is going to be such a catalyst. for the midwest has stuff going on but ah i'd tell you what green green bay is is um i've never been inspired so much and i've traveled the world i worked with some really fantastic fortune five hundred teams ah worked in broadcast film and really great people um
00:30:09
Speaker
i've never been inspired so quickly especially with ignorance because my ignorance was you just say there's there's games in green bay no stop playing and ah boy was i wrong um and to see the really great people. when we started working on 217, really it was to change kind of your idea of the way up a four survival four type thing works. So instead of it being very game focused, it's sort of cinematic in the way that we just what if we could just put the camera on you and put you in the movie?
00:31:03
Speaker
and then have all the events that happen around you in real time. And that's kind of the goal of 217. So approach that was, again, identification. Well, how would we do that? And what's the caveats and and in the pitfalls? and And then what are the escalators up to the right direction? So as we started to look, obviously, Unreal Engine is the base. and the things you can do in Unreal Engine from not just video games, but I was actually using this in broadcast commercials and stuff as well, um which is why I originally started doing it because it was a tool that I introduced, so Visual Alchemy.
Supporting Younger Developers
00:31:43
Speaker
So Visual Alchemy Studios is our other company where you'll see we do broadcast and motion graphics, which really is how we set up for 217 in Alchemy Labs.
00:31:53
Speaker
um we do you know motion capture and all this kind of stuff for companies and my my boys have worked on a lot of Projects with like big name people stuff. So they already kind of have it in as well It's not like we're just you know starting off it like hey, you know, it'd be a really hilarious idea like it it it never was like that it's um, you know, we've we've we've kind of been on a mission from the beginning they've been homeschooled for the majority of that point ah in their life. But we give them the ability to make the decisions. And they saw this. Another thing too was to bring them to the WGA social. The WGA is the west fashioning Wisconsin Games Alliance. So if you go there, you could probably put the link up, the wasconsingamesalliance.com. You see all the studios involved and what their mission is. And that's also very inspiring. So Ben, ah who's involved with them, hosted
00:32:44
Speaker
a social at title town tech which is where we got to actually witness title town tech and get all the goosebumps and all that stuff but my sons who are on my team were invited that changed their perspective on things they didn't know that they were as talented or as important to this ah as they are but I knew if they could just get in here and rub bubbles and see people and and and see people like like Tim Gerritsen from Lost Boys Interact they would talk with AJ from who used to work at Pub G and stuff like I mean this is like this wow they get to actually talk with these guys and that changed as well and that was another thing that again and you know might as well just make this interview about Ben but uh You know, uh, he, the way that he's just implementing all these changes is just, it's really just inspiring. That's really all I can say to it. So to to be even part of a change in the Midwest and to identify, wow, there is the spot where we fit actually really nicely. Um, and we can be a benefit to other people.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's just it's just this is a dream come true the whole thing. Yeah, I know. You joke about around about Ben, but I'm thinking the same thing about you. And again, it goes back to how you're raising your children. And we often talk about the concept of imposter syndrome and how we don't really think we're that good at what we do. And When you have two children that are going to step into a room full of gaming veterans, right? What do they think they know compared to these gaming veterans? But they've been creating the latest and greatest in the newest technology. So the truth is, they probably have a lot to bring to the table that those other guys or gals don't know, right? And it's just this powwow moment of where you could just knowledge and it's just probably like,
00:34:25
Speaker
just a goldmine of great information speaking from one another. And I'm curious on, you know, you have two children and there's a lot of different things that happen in games. Do they each find which kind of niche or aspect excites them the most? oh yeah like Oh yeah, they've they've definitely identified, you know, um from beginning to end, here's the process. And then they can identify what they like the best, and then they can focus on that part. So instead of teaching them in a very linear way, this is what we do first, and then here's what we do second. Here's how the workflow, today we're gonna work on this part, you know, tomorrow we're gonna work on this part. And then, you know, Thursday we'll circle back and then, you know, let them kind of try each thing.
00:35:08
Speaker
We'll sit here on on the screen up there. We'll watch videos or tutorials or whatever. It's really just kind of sitting back as ah as the leader and and and watching just how you would here with any team. Where's the strong points? Where did they thrive at? And encourage that. Water, again, you know the the the nurturing is is very important. So although it's kind of important, you know guys have to understand every point of it, What's your favorite aspect? Oh, you like to model? Okay, so we need this, this, and that. You model it. And you like the texture, huh? Okay. So you got some words together as a team. How about you model it? You texture it. I'll animate it. And then we'll get it in there. How about that? Cool, cool. The older one, he loves the program. He loves blueprints and and just thinking the way the, just the logic and how it works. And he's just very fascinated by that. yeah The other one likes to do sound and foley. And so it's really just, again,
00:36:07
Speaker
teach them to identify. Here's all the options. How would you guys identify what you feel works best for you? And then you can see that you can actually do these other things too where before it was probably very important you had a special a specific person that only did this and a specific person only did that. But I'll tell you what. ah When we were at the WGA, they had on the big screen a game they just got picked up by, Midwest Games, and it's called The Floor is What? And it's this great little game that's getting picked up by Nintendo, and it's a father and son team as well. This is the change that's actively happening. It's not like, hey, you know, like, if all the planets aligned, we could probably... know know No, no, no.
00:36:53
Speaker
Ben said, watch this, and it started to happen. And watching this ripple, you either get thrown off by the ri trotted duck or grab your surfboard and let's ride this ripple and make this really great. And yeah he's just making it for all of us. you know And you have people like you who are were bringing, again, awareness and attention to what's going on. This is what's changing the industry. Yeah. And you know we watched the Summer Game Awards or whatever it was, the Summer Game Show, right? And they showed the top games this year. And and half of them are indie games that are coming up. i won or one or couple developers and it's fascinating how how these games are are shaping up to be. My one caveat would be the difference of yours is it's a very visual, realistic looking game where some of these are more 2D and
Tools for Realistic Visuals in Games
00:37:37
Speaker
nothing's wrong with that, right? Just as a perception of what type of power needs to go into this in order to create this. So, you know, you I was hoping maybe you could give us like
00:37:46
Speaker
a quick rundown on your tool set, right? Because it starts with Unreal 5, right? right so would you able And again, like an elevator pitch, because I don't know if my audience knows exactly what these tools are, but like you mentioned Nanite, Metahumans, can you give us an idea of what each one of these tools does? So Nanite is just a technology that allows us. So previously, if we had like this as our model, um and you were to look at this with all of the polygons on it, you know, If you were real good at it, it could have like maybe 80 polygons and still be really, really nice. If you weren't so good, you could be like have a million polygons and you just have something that as soon as you put it in, it just bogs it down. Nan Knight says, hey, listen, guys, don't worry, we got you. So they take that thing that has all those terrible polygons that maybe you took a photo scan or something of and it's just atrocious and it can convert this to virtualized geometry.
00:38:38
Speaker
It sees this one time and then we hide that. that we can duplicate it a bunch of other times and we'll only draw off for that one. This makes it so you can have this really ornate forest or or you know any landscape that you're creating this environment, buildings and all kinds of stuff. You can move it around and it doesn't bog anything down. So that's why I was so fast when we were watching, when I was showing you this, is thanks to technology like Nanite. Nanite is built into Unreal Engine. So it's just kind of a little tick box and you can activate Nanite.
00:39:09
Speaker
The only caveat is you have to have a rate tracing GPU. ah The next thing is called Lumen. Lumen is just a really advanced way to make lighting look just fantastic. So you combine Lumen with Nanite and you have a really robust start your journey of creation. Now, you can use stuff that's already built that you have access to, thanks to Epic and the way that they network, like you were saying, networking is very important. So they kind of yeah bought up Quixel, which is Megascans, and they have a thing called Mixer. So if you can't afford some stuff, Mixer is a way that you create detectors.
00:39:45
Speaker
So um yeah there's many different ways to create textures. There's stuff like substance. Substance is quite pricey. ah The learning curve is a little hard. um Something like mixer is free. I was robust, of course, but you can actually take the item and then you can start painting actually on the item and put a little bit of rust on the bottom or whatever. And it allows you to kind of get that higher end quality. even though you don't have the higher end money to afford the higher end tools and all that. So start combining all these things and just put it into a big box and then everybody jump into the box and let's see what we can create. And that's kind of the idea behind it. So then you have stuff like Dash, which is polygonflow.io. Bro, you guys that are listening, if you go over there, you can check out Dash. They got tutorials for free. You can download and try it out for, I believe, like 10 days for free. They've got tech support on it. Really, really fantastic.
00:40:37
Speaker
Start messing around with that, combining that with Megascans assets. And before you know it, I mean like you're you're you're really off and running. So the really, the main part is, it's it's not so much again, what you have, it's how you use it. But in this sort of media, and I guess with anything, story, plot, the meat of it is all what's important. Otherwise, it's just ah like an empty thing that's just bejeweled on the outside. And I think that's the part that can't go overlooked, right? First of all, you're MacGyvering this and in the best way possible. You're taking all the tools you have access to and taking advantage of those tools, which you should do, especially in your place because you can scale quickly at no cost, not no cost, but very low cost to get started. So anyone that's listening that ever wanted to dabble into these tools, we will link to them so you can check them out. but like
00:41:27
Speaker
the the the the ground or the the floor to get in isn't that high. You can get started really quickly and simply and build something. And even use like a chat GPT to be like, hey, help me build an Unreal 5 game. And you know what? It will help you walk you through it. But the story and the plot, right that that's what makes your game special. And that's where you need to tap into your creative side to get something that will be addicting. You can't have AI create fun for you or or an experience you want to relive. it And I think that, again, can't go overlooked. And I think oftentimes it does because people just think, oh, it'll just come. If you build it, they will come. Right. It's really no different than if you have like just because you have a typewriter. and I know that sounds dumb, like just going back in the day. Right. Let's just go back to the 80s and
00:42:10
Speaker
ah You have a typewriter and you have paper you got plenty of ink And you got ample time and your coffee and everything doesn't mean you're gonna write a great book Okay, you still have to have that creative inside and and really the typewriter is unreal engine The the the coffee is you know something like that the biscuits you go these are just tools, but the tools don't build things the creator uses the tools to movement and So the tools keep getting more and more phenomenal, but it's now our duty to find out a way to use those cool tools and leverage the power that these highly impactful teams are making on our creative ability.
Development Timeline for Project 217
00:42:52
Speaker
so You can go into as much or as little detail as you want here. But, you know, again, we often hear timelines for games this year anywhere from one year to five years, maybe even longer, depending on the type of game it is. what from From when you started, what was your like, what were you thinking the time frame would be and what is it looking like it could be? So the plan is um two years um from beginning to end. So at the sort of tail end of the first year is to ah start doing a beta testing and then the
00:43:22
Speaker
Really the meat of the second year is is debugging, amping up the assets. One thing a lot of games aren't doing is optimization. Very important. The plan was two years. ah The way i our COO, his name is Jason Rose, um he's he's so very involved with the whole process and what's going to take. And um ah again, people like Ben Caballo have been ah very influential in the way that we are positioning our vantage point. It's really about looking at this from a certain perspective. And if you can get perspective from other professionals and and implement that,
00:44:03
Speaker
you could position yourself to a really great point. So by using the metrics that were given to me, we, 24 months, were at least two months ahead of schedule, thanks to these amazing tools. And that's another thing, you know to to sit there and plan a good goal, in our case, just brilliantly, or it can have the opposite of effect and you can keep running into problems. Now, one problem that mentions you um as as the the lead developer and everything, I've lost the game four times.
00:44:39
Speaker
all of it, the whole thing. I mean, I've had the map and we got AI and they could chase around with just everything that's supposed to and lost it four times. But because of the technology, we were still able to recover. And yes, we are still two months i ahead of schedule, even losing it four times. So that's another thing, too, is it's just we live in a different time. This is when we start needing sponsors to come in talking about backing up your computer here, but but we don't have sponsors. So you're safe there. Always control or command S. Save. All the time. Save. don't Don't lose your stuff. I have a couple more questions for you here, Patrick, because we're getting towards the top of the hour. but But the one I'm interested in most is just because you have, I'm going to say, a strange
Skills and Challenges in Game Development Leadership
00:45:21
Speaker
career path. If it's not strange at all, you went from movies to to games. That's not that weird, but like. Unordinary.
00:45:27
Speaker
i don't already That's a much nicer word. What do you hate most about the day to day that you have to do? And have you learned that maybe you want to outsource it to either your children or someone else? And then what skill sets you have that you'd say you tap into the most on a dayto day to day? So the skill set would would would be communication and identification, which is why I'm able to lead and in the many capacities that I do lead. It's just one of the things that we work on. Obviously, we have another team that works on other stuff.
00:45:58
Speaker
Um, but but 217 is just specifically us three and it was a it was a project that I wanted to see really if we could push the limits and actually make Comfort fruition and yeah, I mean it's it's it's been way cooler than I thought but I guess the main takeaway would be drive uh, I I don't really Have something that I don't like every day I do find stuff frustrating, i find ah but I like the challenge. So there's nothing that I go in begrudgingly, um and I try to teach them that as well because ah you go into it begrudgingly and it's just say probably we're not going to end up end up very well anyway in the first place. I think that kind of is like the special power. Something is to be able to be that duck. you know They say the reverb but the proverbial, let the water just roll off your back.
00:46:48
Speaker
um Yeah, I I attended a big organization for sales and I was like one of the top sales guys and one of the things they would talk about was being a Rhino and Rhino's they don't move backwards Like they'll turn around and walk the other way, but you can't force a rhino to move backwards So they don't move backwards Also, you can shoot them point blank with a 22 and it'll just roll right off them. So we try to be rhinos is what our our our point is and So again, love it, and take tons of notes here.
Community Support and Indie Gaming Culture
00:47:17
Speaker
Last question I have for you is,
00:47:21
Speaker
How can the community help you and how can the community find you? um So, we're I mean, we're on LinkedIn. That's really about the only social media we're doing right now. Unfortunately, there's a very kind of scary trend where if you show even like a little bit of your game, um that could be a curse, somebody could jump you ah or it it won't come out right, ah whatever. um There was a game that came out a little while ago ah called Ill. ILL looks sick um and if you look at that some of the trailers were just oh they were so exciting and then come to find out this was all just like really animation done in Maya so this was just kind of like it could be if we met and that ruins stuff for people so Kickstarter ah You you you want to get attention you want people to see it can also lead to to bad stuff
00:48:08
Speaker
so what what they can do is they can really go and they can check out midwest games you can go on steam and you can wishlist the games or check them out like right now it's like less than $15 they get all you get three of their games uh which are really awesome you can check out the wisconsin games alliance go and and see what they're doing show up to one of these you know if you you see a developer conference or something go and show up and support ah support in the devs that's really how you can help but it's not just helping us out so much i mean yeah you know i i i definitely appreciate it but i i think where there's a lot that's a that's going to be revealed real soon that i can't really talk about but that that will cover itself really it's about supporting the culture supporting the movement
00:48:52
Speaker
If you're in the Midwest, there's really big things going on. And if you're not in the Midwest, say you're like, you know, and William Devanthal, he's down in Georgia, but they're doing really fantastic things with the IGA and teaching students how to make a game from beginning to end and sell it and all this stuff. This is, you know, it's just a different a different time that we're in. So supporting us would be to go and support indie games and and that that we're we're just part of that movement. You can't really support us specifically at the moment. You can get these cool shirts and stuff that we that we sell online ah that that supports us. What really is more about the culture and the movement? Educate yourselves and don't be scared. ah this is This is something you definitely can do. Even if you thought about it, it would be kind of funny. charlie Try it. If you have a computer and you have time, try it. It's fun. Patrick, since the first time we spoke, which was about three weeks ago, it immediately hit me that
00:49:52
Speaker
your will and your drive is unstoppable and I was thinking of a good way to describe it and you just said Rhino and I was like, that's perfect. I wouldn't want to be a brick wall in front of you because I know you're going to tear down that brick wall and you're going to get through it if you're if you want to you you seem like whatever is in your way, screw it, you're going to go right through it and nothing's going to stop you. it And I envy that you're going to bring great things to the Midwest. I think you're building an amazing tool and amazing game. and ah And the fact that it's a narrative game, we even go into that how everyone's building live ops and not online games, and you're building a narrative storytelling game, which looks amazing, is exciting. And the thing I love most is that you're an educator. And to me,
00:50:31
Speaker
an amazing parental figure. I think it's an amazing thing what you're doing for your your kids. And I think you can set them up for the best success in the world. And I think no matter how successful your game is, that alone is such an amazing thing that it's amazing and I envy it. So every time we talk is an educational session for me. And I love it, Patrick. And I will be your biggest cheerleader, however I can help. um Appreciate it. Before we go, is there yeah anything else you'd like to just share with our audience? I just, you can you can do this. If you have a dream, you can do it. You can achieve it, you can accomplish it. The thing is, don't take no for an answer. Don't let anybody tell you that you can't do it. And yeah, plowing through it is part of it. But the other part is, again, identification. What if it's more efficient to just circumnavigate?
00:51:20
Speaker
what what if it's either just crawl over it or or or maybe like we can just dig a little hole under it we don't have to necessarily plow through it but whatever it is let's make our way a around let's be triumphant over whatever that issue is whether a small or large because i guarantee you every single person whether they're working on the , and there are times where they wake up and it's like you suck don't believe that that's not true you don't have to believe that and surround yourself with like-minded people
00:52:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's like you, greg i you you're you're making an impact in everything that we're doing as well because of being able to talk to you and the awareness that you're spreading. It's a it's all very encouraging. and And again, let it be motivational. Don't let it be scary. You can do it. that's I guess that's my main word to everybody. I love it, Patrick, and I'm hoping to be at the MDev conference so so I can shake your hand and buy you a drink. Oh, yeah, man. We'll be excited to see you there for sure. And I appreciate your time. We'll have links to everything Patrick and I have discussed here, including ah Alchemy Labs, including WGA Alliance to IGA, the different tools that he used. We'll have everything as well as any trailers. We're cool showing.
00:52:45
Speaker
um Patrick, again, this has been an amazing time. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Best of luck, and we'll be in touch. Alrighty. I appreciate it. Thanks, Greg. And thanks all you guys for watching. And remember, you can do it. Don't be scared. Just go out and attack. Thanks. Have a great day. You as well.