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Episode 239: Alexandra DiPalma Leads the Podcast Workshop
130 Plays4 years ago
Alexandra DiPalma, the boss behind Domino Sound and the leader of the Podcast Workshop, is back to talk all things podcasting!
Check out akimbo.com/thepodcastworkshop to learn more and if you use the link in the show notes at brendanomeara.com, you could take advantage of a killer discount on the seventh iteration of the workshop.
We talk about her winning the golden ticket by working with Seth Godin, launching her own company, and much, much more.
Keep the conversation going on social media @CNFPod and consider being a member at patreon.com/cnfpod.
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Transcript
Host's Introduction and Full Moon Observation
00:00:01
Speaker
There is a gorgeous full moon out there. Oh, wait. Oh, I'm supposed to play the teaser? Damn it. The more experience I get and the older I get and the more I'm working in the media industry, I realize how many people are at the top and how many people are thriving and how many people are in power who actually are mediocre and who actually should have imposter syndrome and they don't.
00:00:32
Speaker
Well, how's it going, CnEfris?
Introduction to Alexandra de Palma and the Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:00:34
Speaker
This is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm your host and producer and everything. Brendan O'Mara, how's it going? Hey, it's always a pleasure of pleasure when past guests come back on the show. And it's the pleasure of pleasure of pleasure when that person is Alexandra de Palma.
00:00:57
Speaker
That was episode 130. This is episode 239. So if you do the math and solve for X, that equals to a wicked lot of episodes over two years. Someone tweeted at the time of that first episode that listening to my conversation with Alex the first time around was like listening to two people becoming great friends in real time. I thought that was really cool and summed it up perfectly.
00:01:24
Speaker
And Alex and I really feel that way. There are some people I just click with, like, you know, that when a magnet sticks to her refrigerator, it's just that, you know, whack.
00:01:35
Speaker
You know, I had put Bronwyn Dickey in that category, Elizabeth Rush, Bryn Jonathan Butler, and of course Alex. With the exception of Elizabeth, I've never physically met these people, and I just feel such a kinship with them. You know, many others as well, that's for sure, but you know, these four just come to the top of my mind as people that just, you know, you have that kind of thing. The guitar is in tune, man. Anyway.
Alexandra's Role and Collaboration with Seth Godin
00:02:04
Speaker
Alex is back because she's the ringleader of the Podcast Workshop, formerly the Podcast Fellowship. It's the Podcast Workshop now. It's one of the akimbo workshops pioneered by the one and only Seth Godin by heading over to BrendanOmero.com.
00:02:20
Speaker
You'll find show notes to this episode and others, but this particular episode you'll get a link that grants you this early bird discount if you want to start a podcast and work with Alex and the other coaches and of course your entire cohort with the akimbo workshop of the podcast workshop.
00:02:42
Speaker
If I were starting over, I'd start with the podcast workshop for sure. These akimbo workshops are just so great. You become a different person from day one to whenever it ends. Even just a couple years ago, this isn't akimbo related, but it's Alex related. A couple years ago, I had a pretty good footing in what it takes to produce a weekly podcast, and you know that.
00:03:09
Speaker
A podcast of this nature and I I took Alex's creative live class and that's a chase Jarvis Brainchild if you will and he's been on the show you might recall when his book creative calling came out About a little over a year ago But her creative live class I learned so much about being more efficient as a producer There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. So the way she broke a lot of that down
00:03:39
Speaker
definitely helped me with my workflow when it comes to editing, booking guests, packaging a show, the nitty gritty that if it's done well, you never hear it at all.
00:03:53
Speaker
i attribute a lot of that uh... to alex and her skill uh... having come up as a uh... trick classically trained sort of radio file and you know that it coming through school as podcast ron the rise uh...
Founding Domino Sound and Career Transformation
00:04:08
Speaker
point being if you're thinking about a podcast you can follow alex's lead if you want to really find your voice she's the founder of domino sound that domino sound dot c o is the
00:04:21
Speaker
the website for her company, it's a podcast production company. And it's not unlike what we're doing here at Exit 3 Media. And it was working with Seth that gave her the confidence that she could start her own company. And gangbusters, she's taken over the world, man. It's good, good stuff. As long as people like her are taking over the world, I will gladly follow her lead.
00:04:52
Speaker
I'll have more to say at the end of the show, my parting shot. But in the meantime, make sure you're all subscribed up to this thing that we do. You know, you can always say what up on social media, at cnfpod or at Brendan O'Mara, across the big three. And you know, lock into this conversation with Alex. I first started by asking her, it's something I should have asked her the first time when I learned how she came to be working with
Impact of Meeting Seth Godin
00:05:18
Speaker
Seth.
00:05:18
Speaker
But I started to I started this off by asking her quite literally what it was like You know having won the lottery by being handed Seth's podcast when she was working at mid-roll a few years ago That of course turned into something special and so here's the infinitely wonderful Alexander de Palma
00:05:52
Speaker
that way completely almost every day. Like meeting Seth and kind of learning with him and having him as a mentor first of all it's just been personally so gratifying and I've learned so much. But in addition to that like honestly when you really kind of like get down to logistics like being able to teach the podcasting workshop
00:06:13
Speaker
with Seth, which we'll talk about in a second. We're having the seventh, it's the seventh version of the podcast fellowship. The seventh workshop is starting on February 1st, 2021. But doing that allowed me to quit my job and start my own company.
00:06:28
Speaker
And so winning the lottery is a perfect way to put it because it really did. It was kind of like meeting Seth and collaborating with Seth and we started this workshop together and it ended up being like a side project that ended up kind of being a main project and then allowing me to literally start the company that I now have called Domino Sound. And so
00:06:51
Speaker
Every single day, I think of how
Development of Podcast Workshop
00:06:53
Speaker
insane that is. It's exactly how you put it. I was working at the company mid-roll. I got assigned to Seth's podcast at Kimbo and then we met and completely, you know, from day one, we completely hit it off and I knew that we would be collaborators, but I didn't quite realize that it would have such a huge impact on my life and my career.
00:07:09
Speaker
even not just career personal life like you know i when i have when i when i'm sad or when i have things going on i i talked to sap and so um it's just been like you said hitting the lottery but also so much better than that because i know that it's kind of like a lifelong relationship and i'm just going to continue to to learn from it's really it's really special
00:07:30
Speaker
Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. I was lucky enough. I got to talk to him in August about his, about the practice. And it was like, we recorded way ahead of his pub date and then, you know, it, it pubbed in November. So that's when I, when I ran it, it was just like, I was, I was freaking out just cause he.
00:07:47
Speaker
I hold him in such high regard. And it's just like, he's so generous. And he's, he's, he's one of those people where he like lives up to his reputation when you're when you speak to him. And as a matter of fact, in one of the podcasts I produced called food for thought, we were just talking, they're all writers. And we had a conversation about what happens when you meet your heroes, because in a lot of cases, like writers have literary heroes. Yeah, so many cases, it's kind of like their advice at the end of the conversation was like,
00:08:15
Speaker
Don't try and meet your heroes because you're gonna be let down but you're totally right. I think in Seth's case He more than lives up to the reputation So when you are developing the podcast fellowship or I think it's the workshop now So what was the process by which that? Unfolded and just you know, how did you you know storyboard the the workshop so to speak? I
00:08:38
Speaker
That's a real, it's so funny that we're having this conversation because this is something now at the launch of number seven of this workshop I've been thinking a lot about and kind of looking back at because it really was Seth approached me with the idea. And I think I might've mentioned it in the first podcast interview that we did, but he had a family friend who was a young, a young woman who was in college and she called Seth on his, to ask advice about getting an internship for the summer.
00:09:04
Speaker
And she was kind of, I think she was talking, you know, one of those kinds of internships where really you're like getting coffee and printing things. And Beth said, well, you know, why don't you start a podcast and you can talk to kind of the people in your field that you'd be interested in talking to. So essentially she said, I would love to start a podcast, but I need something that's a little more structured. I need something that like I can get a certificate at the end. You know what I mean? Like something more official. And so in that sense, that right after that conversation, Seth called me and said,
00:09:32
Speaker
Why don't we start a class teaching podcasting and I immediately said yes and didn't exactly think of the logistics behind it until After
Teaching Podcasting: From Basics to Advanced
00:09:44
Speaker
agreeing to do it and really like I of course I went to school for podcasting. I studied journalism and radio But I had never taught podcasting and so there was probably a two-week period after I agreed to do it with Seth and then
00:10:00
Speaker
I didn't, I think I was, do you know when you're just spinning in your own mind and I was, it was not at all that I was putting it off, but I was sitting there every single day at my desk being like, how am I going to approach this? Like what am I like, where do I begin? You know what I mean? And, and Seth, of course, being Seth, Seth called me.
00:10:17
Speaker
After two weeks of kind of not hearing from me and was like I have a feeling that you're spinning like I have a feeling that you Don't know where to begin and I was like that's so crazy because that's exactly the situation that I'm in right now I really just don't know
00:10:33
Speaker
like I said, where to begin. And he really, I don't even, I don't exactly know, but I don't know if it's necessarily that he gave me words of advice as much as like, he kind of called me out. You know what I mean? It was kind of like an accountability moment where he was like, listen, like, you know how to do this. Like I approached you to do this because I know that you're capable of doing this. And from there, it really just went, it went to, it's so funny. I remember I was on a family vacation with my family in Portugal.
00:11:00
Speaker
And I was just so stressed out about coming up with this class. And so, but in a good way, it was like, it was a really exciting challenge. But the thing that I hadn't realized, I think was taking a step back from like, I assume as somebody, you too, you as well, obviously, like you're somebody who produces podcasts, it's hard to kind of step back and remember what it's like when you had no idea how to do anything.
00:11:24
Speaker
know what I mean? Like, starting from square one. And so the process for me was really trying to like, erase all of the knowledge I had in a way and going back to being the person that I was before I knew anything about podcasting before I picked up a mic before I edited any audio. And that's how the storyboarding went. I ended up coming up with like 35 lessons. It's a seven week course.
00:11:47
Speaker
and it starts at you know it really starts at developing the concept for your podcast so like absolute step one like what are you interested in what would you feel like talking about then it goes on to you know recording your voice and then we get into audio editing then we get into publishing but it really the process was like a really interesting for me um kind of like unwrapping of
00:12:09
Speaker
of the knowledge of podcast production, because you have to go back to step one. And so I learned a lot along the way. And I think, like I said, after seven iterations of this course, it's held up remarkably well. I'm shocked at how remarkably well it's held up, because I kind of expected we would have to do a lot of tweaks and a lot of changes. But those original 35 lessons, pretty much, we have made tweets, re-recorded some episodes of the podcast. But it's still how it is today.
00:12:35
Speaker
Did you find that once you locked into what that sort of first critical lesson was that that was to kind of borrow a term from your company that that was a lead domino and then everything else kind of opened up from there? That's a very good way to put it. Yes, that's exactly how it
Creative Project Advice: Just Start
00:12:53
Speaker
was. It was so once and it's probably the same. I'm not exactly a writer aspiring writer, perhaps, but
00:12:59
Speaker
I think probably with writers you know when it's like the whole thing is it's just like writing the first sentence writing stuff getting something on the page is the hardest part and that's exactly what it was like once I finally just got started and that's that's such a lesson of steps as well like
00:13:14
Speaker
just do it, you know what I mean? And he always says that there's a difference between shipping the work and not caring about it versus doing your best and not worrying about whether it's perfect. And so that's kind of where I had been was I was like, these lessons aren't perfect. How am I going to make this perfect? And then finally, when I was like, let me just get something down on the page, that's when everything started flowing. And so that exactly like you said, that has definitely been
00:13:42
Speaker
I think a lesson for other work going forward as well where it was like just get started and then figure out the rest from there. And over the course of developing the workshop and the lessons and then of course your experience as a producer on mic, behind mic, where are you most excited in that continuum of the production process?
The Creative Joy of Podcast Production
00:14:06
Speaker
I really like and I'm so grateful that I'm getting to do more of this now, the development process. So the process where I'm working with talent, new voices, people who have never done podcasts before. I actually love working with people who are podcasters as well because it's kind of easier. But I like the process of working to develop the show.
00:14:28
Speaker
So that's like starting from the seed of an idea and really going through the process of making a pilot, making another version of the pilot. And in a lot of cases with Domino, we'll do, you know, five iterations of episode one before we settle on a format, before we settle on exactly what the tone is going to be and everything like that.
00:14:46
Speaker
And so I think that development process for me has turned out to be, I guess the most fun and the most like creatively rewarding. I think it's also, I think it can be tough because there are a lot of cases in that, in that process where you think like, it's like version three of the pilot and it's just not working. And you're like, Oh my God, what I've been wasting all this time. This isn't.
00:15:07
Speaker
This just isn't working. And then finally something clicks. And so I really like the development process. And for a while I was doing less of that because I was also doing a lot of editing, like actual audio editing. And so I think I've been fortunate in building Domino, being able to do more of the like executive production work where it's kind of like more overseeing rather than the nitty gritty. And that's the part I've been really into so far.
00:15:35
Speaker
What would you identify is the great allure of becoming or starting a
Building Skills and a Body of Work in Podcasting
00:15:43
Speaker
podcast? And you can probably piggyback that off a lot of the people who attend the workshops. Seth made me think of this in a new way, because I have always honestly, I've always just been one of the rare people. And this is not neither good nor bad. But I started my career in podcasting, like,
00:16:00
Speaker
as my career. I was making money on podcasting from the beginning rather than having it be a hobby. And so I was kind of coming into it thinking that it was something that people sought as a career. You know what I mean? This is something you're going to work in radio, you're going to work in podcasting, and that's going to be your career. And Seth, while we developed the workshop, actually compared it more to blogging.
00:16:25
Speaker
And I hadn't thought of it in that sense, like where it's something that an individual can do in order to build a body of work, in order to make connections in order to really like, and this is the thing that always surprises me in the workshop, like hone different skills that aren't completely related to the active podcasting. And so in the sense of like, as an example, somebody
00:16:46
Speaker
after they graduated from the class or graduated, after they completed the course, talked about how becoming a podcaster had helped them with their communication skills outside of podcasting. After doing the interviews and after going through the exercises of how to become a good interviewer, they realized that most of their interactions and most of their conversations, they were not even listening to the people. They were just talking the whole time.
00:17:09
Speaker
And so I think the allure is really how Seth frames it, is kind of finding your own voice, building this body of work that you can share with people. And it doesn't have to be, and again, we always emphasize this, and I think you and I have talked about this, Brendan, but you don't have to have Joe Rogan numbers for your podcast to be a success.
00:17:29
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like your podcast could be a success because you're talking to the people that you want to talk to because you have had the conversations that you're learning from. And you have, as, as I said, like, I think it is really important and Seth talks about this a lot, um, to have that body of work that you can share with people.
00:17:45
Speaker
that's more than a resume, you know what I mean? Like it is something when you share your podcast with somebody and you talk about all these people that you've interviewed, it's impressive in a lot of ways. And I think that it's accessible to everybody much in the way that blogging is, but I think that that's really a big allure.
00:18:02
Speaker
What would you identify as maybe some peeves that you have come across in terms of just because you have an ear for it? So peeves or maybe common mistakes that people are making as they get into this.
00:18:17
Speaker
Do you know what's so funny? I just, one of my friends who has a podcast called LGBTQIA, his name is Jeffrey Masters. He just had a little Twitter thread on this yesterday and I just found myself doing it like five minutes ago when you asked me a question. And one of his peeves, which I actually agree with is when a guest
00:18:39
Speaker
says, Oh, that was such a good question when people don't cut it because it's such a natural thing. Like I think even me, when I'm on a podcast, I'll say that like five different times. I'll be like, Oh, great question. Great question. And then go into my answer. And if like, if you don't cut it, it's just kind of like, okay, you're being a little self congratulatory. You know what I mean? Like that, I think that's one of them when I hear, Oh, that's such a good question that people keep in the interview, even though I have done that before.
00:19:05
Speaker
I only have decided to cut that from my interviews after reading Jeffrey's thread yesterday. So that's one. I think another one, my main pet peeve really is probably, and we try to kind of account for this in the podcast workshop, when people do the thing when they're just like,
00:19:23
Speaker
I want to have a podcast where I talk about everything. You know what I mean? When they're like, when they're like me and my friend have these really interesting conversations. And so like every week, we're gonna meet up and like just talk about like, art, culture, sex, dating, like, like everything work, you know what I'm saying? And so I think, I think it's really hard for me, when people approach me about podcasts or potentially having a podcast, and they haven't really honed in on a focus or especially
00:19:51
Speaker
when they haven't honed in on what would make their podcast different. And that's not to say something that we talk about in the workshop a lot is like, you don't have to make your podcast is going to be different because you host it. You know what I mean? Like it's like you being you is the actual thing that differentiates it. So lean into the things that make you unique rather than doing the thing where it's just like,
00:20:14
Speaker
I'm just going to have these generic conversations about everything. So for me, I really like podcasts that have a specific focus. Like one, my friend just started a podcast and like, it's just one of these examples of something that is so outrageously specific that you could only do it in a podcast. It's called Celebrity Book Club.
00:20:32
Speaker
And they read celebrity memoirs and then talk about them. It's like only celebrity memoirs and that's the only thing that they discuss on the show. And it's like, it's just so specific, but it really works because they end up talking, you know, they have their own personalities and they're comedians. So they talk about all sorts of different things, but the focus and the kind of like pitch is every week we're going to talk about a new celebrity memoir. And so I love, I just love the specificity.
00:20:58
Speaker
What fraction would you say of podcast workshop members over the six iterations and now the seventh are people who want to be solely on mic and then maybe versus people who want to actually maybe produce and maybe be more behind the scenes?
00:21:17
Speaker
I think in the podcast workshop, we found a lot, the vast majority of the people are interested in being behind the mic. And I think that's really on it. Like there have definitely been a few people who will join the course with, um, like a partner, like somebody who would be the host and then they'll be the producer, which I think is a really great way to do it. Um, but I think for the most part, just, just because it streamlines the process, like, like it's hard, it's, it's another barrier to have to find a host if you're getting into podcasting.
00:21:47
Speaker
You know what I mean? And so it's kind of hard to join as a producer if you don't have a host already attached. But I have seen people in the workshop go through the workshop, do a podcast where they are the host on the microphone, and then they get into production. And actually, there are a few people from the workshop who now are freelance podcast producers, and they do it for hire. And so there's a fair amount of people who have gone through the process and done it and then decided to be a producer, kind of like what I did.
00:22:16
Speaker
One thing that always strikes me when talking to people who want to get into podcasting or whatever, it's like if you start a blog, you're never going to delude yourself into making money off your blog.
00:22:32
Speaker
But for some reason, podcasting, people think it's like this, like an ATM just waiting to draw money out of it. And it's just not the case. How do you dispel that myth that getting into podcasting is just can be a cash cow?
Myths of Podcasting Profitability
00:22:48
Speaker
Well, I think Seth does it really well in the course because literally, I think it's coming out tomorrow, but his podcast, we run an ad on his podcast when the workshop is coming up. And the first thing he says in the ad advertising the workshop is, please do not take this course if you're trying to make money off podcasting.
00:23:08
Speaker
Like, because you're not going to, you know what I mean? And like, and there have been people who have proven us wrong. There have been people who have actually kind of parlayed their podcast into money making endeavors. But the way that we really dispel it is by just telling people that that's not, that's not realistic. You know what I mean? And I think like, it's actually really interesting you say this because just last night I was watching, I was watching a trailer for something on HBO called
00:23:34
Speaker
I think it was called Fake Famous, and it's a new documentary that's coming out. And apparently I haven't fact checked this stat, but the majority, like the thing that young people in the US cite that they want to be when they grow up the most is a professional influencer.
00:23:49
Speaker
And the whole point of the documentary is basically the percentage of people who are going to be influencers and making a living on Instagram is just so incredibly low that it's not even a realistic goal that you could ever have. You know what I mean?
00:24:04
Speaker
You cannot go into your teen years and be like, I want to be an influencer for my career. And that's kind of how I feel like it is with podcasting. It seems like it's super easy. It seems like all you need to do is get a mic and record something, and then you'll be making money and you'll be a podcaster. But as you know, that's not how it is. And so we just like to be upfront with people about that.
00:24:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's just when you see the charts on iTunes, it's you see these things are very, very polished. And oftentimes everything on the charts, there's tends to be one or two, one or one and two of things is usually
00:24:46
Speaker
There's a celebrity behind it, so there's already a baked-in audience. Or there's a media company behind it, whether that's NPR or New York Times. And so they have an institutional heft and thrust behind it that can position it in such a way with a baked-in audience that makes these things really so popular. And then when you measure yourself up against that, you're just setting yourself up to fail.
00:25:14
Speaker
Well, I'm curious, you've been doing your, how many years have you been doing your podcast? Uh, let's see. I'm entering year nine soon. Unbelievable. You're like the original, original podcaster. So for you, like I can't, I'm, I mean, for you making a podcasting is making a podcast in your living. It is not my living. I can occasionally get a little bit of scratch, but it's certainly not a living. Right. So how, like what has kept you doing it for nine years?
00:25:45
Speaker
Let's see. Okay. So there were a couple iterations. So I started it and it wasn't super, super consistent for maybe like the first three to four. It was very sporadic. And I wonder why isn't the audience growing? And so at the end of 2016, so I've right at beginning 2017, I vowed
00:26:01
Speaker
just show up every single week. And I have, I've maybe missed one week in four and a half years or whatever. And as a result of showing up, lo and behold, like Seth would say, drip by drip, you know, it's grown and it's by no means, you know, conquering the world. But, you know, it's doing its little thing, it's very specific, and it serves a very, very small, niche-y audience, which is kind of what you want to do. But what keeps me coming back to your question,
00:26:31
Speaker
is this idea of building community and celebrating people's work, being a cheerleader for people's work. And ultimately, it stemmed from a lot of toxic feelings of resentment and jealousy that I was feeling as a freelancer when I first started comparing myself to others and wondering why I wasn't on people's podcast. Not that I was doing anything to merit that kind of attention.
00:26:58
Speaker
But I was feeling all these toxic feelings. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe this is the time where you can channel it and have the conversations you wish people were inviting you to have and be the leader of those conversations. And then by celebrating people's work, work through the toxicity. And over the course of the years and just finding a voice and developing a style that serves the audience and the guest and also works through a lot of the things I want to work through.
00:27:25
Speaker
Um, it has engendered a sense of, uh, you know, a partnership with the audience and you know, I'm a day, you know, I have too many books to read and it's great to be able to have the headliners of the festival. Like I say, like those big A-list writers and then emerging talent and maybe people who are just like, just not, they have books, but who the hell has heard of this person and get that on too. So it's a good mix and it's kind of.
00:27:50
Speaker
building community. Ultimately, that's what keeps me coming back to it, is building that community and being the hub of the wheel. Yeah. I love that answer. Everything that you said, we should put that when you said, what's the allure of starting a podcast? Your answer is honestly so much better than mine. Not that it's a competition, obviously, but I think
00:28:12
Speaker
what I failed to mention really that you touched on was the building community aspect, which I think is really the most important aspect of it. And I love, I kind of love what you said about, yeah, like it was, it was something that you were feeling resentful about, and then you kind of took it into your own hands. And I think that's what I mean when we compare it to the blogging is like,
00:28:32
Speaker
it's within your power, it's within your reach to do that. Anyone can start a podcast and I think those reasons are, it's like a really beautiful reason, the building community. But yeah, I think to the point of, we talked about how it's not a good way to make money. How do you get people thinking in terms of,
00:28:51
Speaker
beyond thousands and thousands of downloads and having Squarespace sponsor your show. Thinking beyond those metrics that were bombarded with with the really popular podcasts. Yeah. I mean, really, I think we talk a lot. I talk a lot about this not only in the workshop, but in the work that I do at Domino Sound. We are a professional podcast company. We produce podcasts with HBO. We're producing a podcast with Ted right now.
00:29:19
Speaker
And we also produce domino originals. And so domino originals are kind of, you can think of them as more of like the indie podcasts. And so we produce those podcasts with really like the full expectation that we probably won't be making a ton of money from them.
00:29:34
Speaker
we produce them with one of them actually i have to plug it because it's it's just such an entertaining show it's called the cheat code from domino sound it's a podcast told over ten episodes the story of an affair a marriage a relationship it's it's very it's actually very deep but it's also very funny and entertaining
00:29:52
Speaker
And so one of the things that kind of came, this was a long-term goal, but we were surprised that it happened so fast. It's now being developed for television. So that's a really exciting thing that we didn't anticipate. But backing up, even the talent that we work with at Domino and Domino Originals, we tell them
00:30:12
Speaker
you are not going to directly make money from this podcast. Like this is going to be something that you and I think this really goes back to the answer that I gave before. Like this is an opportunity for you to build your work and to build your voice and to build really kind of like your reputation in a way. You know, like for instance, we have another podcast we have is called
00:30:32
Speaker
the color grade. And it's a podcast that really highlights Black critics and their reviews of films, mostly created by Black directors, Black filmmakers, Black actors. And again, super specific. That's a podcast that, like you said about your podcast, has a really niche audience. But for the host, we worked with one host season one and another host named KB this season.
00:30:55
Speaker
both Joy and KB are excellent, but we told them, you know, this podcast isn't going to make you money, but it is going to give you opportunities. You're going to be able to get press passes to festivals. You're going to be able to be featured on different radio shows because now you have a podcast. Like it's kind of, I think the way that I sell it to people is this is a way to parlay your yourself, parlay your podcast into other opportunities because now you've built credibility. You have this body of work that gives you credibility and now you're kind of like,
00:31:25
Speaker
an expert in whatever your podcast is. And so that's what I've seen most of my talent really do, is get other opportunities via the podcast.
00:31:35
Speaker
So from an operational standpoint, when you're courting talent with the idea that you're giving them a platform to develop this skill, are you then seeking sponsorship to help afford the production and keep the lights on for you? Is that how you get paid essentially when you're producing a show for other talent?
00:32:00
Speaker
Honestly, even for us, like another show that I just mentioned, Food for Thought, that show has 40, 50,000 downloads an episode, which I actually just saw a chart from, I think it was from Axios. It was a chart that ran down like the percentile of podcasts and their downloads. And if you have 40 to 50,000 downloads per episode, you are in the top one to 2% of podcasts.
00:32:24
Speaker
Now we cannot for the life of us, we make, we make fine money off that podcast, but there's five of us involved and none of, you know, it's like really a drop in the bucket. Like we're not making a ton of money from that podcast. So even at Domino, we're not making a ton of money from advertisers and sponsorships. What we're doing are from an operational standpoint, like you said, we, we take on, um,
00:32:46
Speaker
like branded podcasts or bigger production projects like where we are hired as the producer in order to that's really how we kind of like make our money from those production deals where we are the producers and then we use that money like you know to pay ourselves but also to kind of pay for the production of these indie podcasts these domino originals that we really believe in that we can't necessarily like get a big company behind because they're so niche but like I said like the bet on that
00:33:15
Speaker
for instance, the one I told you about the cheat code, like the bet on that is that we will be able to parlay those into other potentially unforeseen opportunities, like the TV show, you know what I mean? Like, like a TV show, like a book deal, we have a parenting podcast, we like are in talks about writing a book for that, like the other speaking opportunities because of this parenting podcast, like it's really, it's kind of it's,
00:33:37
Speaker
It's hard because it is, even as I say it right now, it sounds so unpredictable. You know what I mean? Let's make this whole podcast and hope that something comes from it. But so far, it's actually been working. And so that's how we do it from an operational standpoint. It's kind of like take on these projects that, not that we're not passionate about all the projects we take on a domino, somehow align with our ethos in some way or another. But we'll take on a project with the US Bank, for instance, and that will fund through our original podcasts.
00:34:06
Speaker
For sure. It's a lot of what I'm doing as well. It's like you go to these brands that want to tell better stories, and they have a lot of money. And you can charge them a very fair rate, and they'll pay for it. And that can subsidize, say, the journalism I want to do or a lot of the journalism you want to do, those kind of stories.
00:34:32
Speaker
And that's kind of the thing. And you're always, you know, you're following your taste, you know, I'm the same way. Like, I'm not gonna produce a show for anyone who doesn't align with my values. I'm gonna believe in whatever they're doing. So I love that, you know, that we align in that way, too. I think that's where you have to have like a good compass to go on to do these things.
00:34:55
Speaker
And I think for us, I think for you and I, what I've noticed over the past few years is that there are so many more opportunities for that. So many more opportunities for people who are now finally recognizing that producing a professional podcast costs money. You know what I mean? Like four years ago, people might approach me and ask me to do 10 episodes for $1,000 or something. You know what I mean? Something crazy. And now,
00:35:21
Speaker
at least I find even people, first of all, don't even approach me with those kinds of ridiculous offers anymore. But they also finally are starting to understand that it's valuable and what it takes. And I also think like, it's really interesting, like, like, for instance, you said, it's not necessarily just like the huge Squarespace companies that are now paying money for podcasts, there are really a lot of like,
00:35:42
Speaker
smaller institutions, independent people who are willing to pay money. And like, so it's not necessarily, like there are, I think there's a lot of opportunities for freelancers to be producing different, different levels of podcasts. You know what I mean? And so I think that's really cool too.
00:35:58
Speaker
Absolutely.
Entrepreneurial Insights from Seth Godin
00:36:00
Speaker
I love that after, once you started partnering with Seth, that it gave you the fuel to then spur off and found domino sound. What was that inflection point and that feeling and that moment when you were able to take that leap?
00:36:20
Speaker
I think it was more of one of those moments. And so you're a freelancer. I'm curious to hear from you as well. Like I guess I went to college, I went to graduate school, I worked in public radio, and then I worked at a big podcast company. So I always essentially had kind of a nine to five. Like I never, I was never a type of person where I was like,
00:36:39
Speaker
You know, like you hear on those podcasts, like I'm an entrepreneur. I knew from day one, like I wanted to start my own business and work for myself. Like that, that wasn't my experience. Um, and so I think through working with Seth, it really just gave me more perspective on the fact that like, you don't have to be that kind of person in order to start a company and work for yourself. Like this doesn't always, this doesn't have to be something where it's like you've been planning your entire life to start your own company. And like, that's what you know you want to do. Like,
00:37:06
Speaker
It gave me more perspective on the fact that kind of like really anyone can do it. You know what I mean? And I think when I got that perspective through working with Seth, I would go to my regular nine to five job where I was working for someone and think to myself like,
00:37:21
Speaker
but I could be doing this independently. You know what I mean? Like I could be working directly with these brands or with these people or with these clients and making this podcast, which I'm already doing, but underneath the company. And so the process was kind of like, I guess demystifying entrepreneurship in a way, like demystifying the fact that you don't need to be this special kind of person. And honestly, Seth talks about it with, in terms of being a creative, like he's running something called the creatives workshop right now.
00:37:49
Speaker
And the whole ethos behind that is there is such this sense of you're born as a creative. You are born to do this. And this is what you have in your DNA. But being a creative, too, is something that you can learn. And it's a skill that you can develop. And so once I realized that, I guess it kind of gave me the freedom to feel like I could just quit my job and start my own thing, which hadn't even really crossed my mind prior to that. You know what I mean?
00:38:17
Speaker
Oh, yeah. How did you wrestle with those feelings of being an imposter when you started being an entrepreneur? It's very fancy and highfalutin. So how did you wrestle with that?
00:38:29
Speaker
I think it was, I think it was kind of like, I definitely dealt with imposter syndrome. I think, I mean, I still do. Um, but I think it was kind of more the understanding that I was never presenting myself as something that I didn't feel like I was. You know what I mean? Like, even when I, even when I started the company, like I would talk about what we're talking about now, like this is something
00:38:51
Speaker
brand new to me. I don't know how to run a company. I'm not a business person. I don't blah, blah, blah. Like I think I was always very honest with myself and with others about that. And so it never felt like I was trying to like live up to something that I, that I had like put out there that wasn't real. Um, it was kind of more, I guess, just like really just, I think it was kind of just staying present. Well, you know what I mean? Like day by day, just being like, I guess I have my own company now. I guess this is what it means to do this. And so
00:39:19
Speaker
Also, I have to say, this might sound a little jaded or something, but the more experience I get and the older I get and the more I'm working in the media industry, I realize how many people are at the top and how many people are thriving and how many people are in power who actually are mediocre and who actually
00:39:38
Speaker
should have imposter syndrome and they don't. And I sit there and I'm kind of like, if these people are like, making their way to the top, and they really don't have anything special that I think they're bringing to the table, like, why should I have imposter syndrome? You know what I mean? Like, and I think it was the realization, like, so many of these people, I'm sorry, but they're mediocre. You know what I mean? And yet,
00:40:01
Speaker
they have presented themselves in a way that they're not. And so that, I think realizing that kind of gave me the confidence to shake off my own imposter syndrome. Oh, that's great. And I guess kind of closing the circle as you're approaching, you know, this next iteration of the podcast workshop, you know, just, you know, where is, you know, where is the juice line for you? What's exciting you about this going forward?
00:40:28
Speaker
I think I have to borrow your answer again. I love the building community aspect. You're such a professional. You don't need the podcast and workshop. So you've never been in it. But it's just such a place where you log into the forum. It's called Discourse. There's a really strong sense of community.
00:40:48
Speaker
in addition to myself and Seth, there's a whole team of just like incredible coaches that we have. And these people are people that I've been working with over the past seven iterations of the podcast workshop. And so I've really built a community with them as well, like with the team that I work with. And I love I love just like logging in and watching people sort through their own questions, their own issues and kind of overcome them and really like
00:41:13
Speaker
be on this journey to becoming a podcaster. And it's just so incredible over the course of seven weeks, like watching people actually achieve it. Like after seven weeks, people literally have podcast episodes published on Apple podcast and Spotify. And like, it's just, just, I think the idea of like facilitating that and being part of that and witnessing it is, is where the juice lies for me every, every time. That's amazing. Do you have, you have them host with like anchor cause it's free and that populates really easy to
00:41:43
Speaker
I actually the hosting, the hosting is always a question because things change so much with hosting. Originally, I always recommended simplecast, which is which I used to use a lot. But now I think it's like people use anchor, it's kind of like, we usually present hosting options and people kind of choose what fits for them. But mostly like I think, simplecast, anchor, podbean, stuff like that.
00:42:05
Speaker
Yeah, this podcast I have on Libsyn. I have another little podcast called Casualty of Words, which is a writing podcast for people in a hurry. So episodes, it's just me on mic less than three minutes long. And I'm just messing around with Anchor on that. And that one's pretty wild because they automatically get it into all the directories really easy. It's free. So you recommend it?
00:42:32
Speaker
I do right now. The analytics are okay and since Spotify purchased them, if you just publish on Spotify, you get to use any music on Spotify. Oh my God, that's right. So there's that whole thing. And then they actually... That's huge. That's really huge.
00:42:56
Speaker
And you have the option too, like they will, you know, put sponsors in front of you and you can do, I do a little ad read that's just for Anchor at the beginning. And whenever that podcast hits like a thousand, I'll get like 15 bucks or whatever. And it's just like, they do that for you. It's actually really, so it's been a fun experiment. Cause I had it on SoundCloud and I kicked it over to Anchor cause I was just curious cause someone was courting me on Anchor to take creative nonfiction podcast at Anchor.
00:43:23
Speaker
And I was a little gun shy because if they're giving it away for free, it's like, what are you giving up? Exactly. And so I didn't do that, but I was like, you know what? Casually awards is so low stakes. I'll just kick it over there and see what happens. And it's easy to navigate and you can edit within it, but I do everything in Hindenburg. So I just, and then I kick over the MP3 to it.
00:43:44
Speaker
So it's pretty wild. I don't know. I'll report back after more time. But Alex, my goodness, what a pleasure to speak to you again. Best of luck with the podcast workshop and Domino Sound. So we'll have to do this again, hopefully more frequently than every two years. I know. It was so good to talk to you, Brendan. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
00:44:15
Speaker
Great stuff. Am I right? Always great stuff. I really locked into that. I like to say I'm in the pocket with some of these and not scrambling around like a fool. Go check out akimbo.com slash podcast workshop. Let me double check that one here.
00:44:33
Speaker
slash the podcast workshop akimbo.com slash the podcast workshop got it you can learn more about the show there see a video from Seth and if you use the link that are that's in the show notes to this episode you'll unlock a discount I'm not sure how long that will be valid so the sooner the better go check it out
00:44:58
Speaker
I took the marketing seminar last year, I think at the end of 2019 and a good chunk of 2020. And though my wife seems to think I learned nothing from it, that's categorically false. I apply many of the lessons I learned from that akimbo workshop.
00:45:18
Speaker
Sometimes it doesn't necessarily result in like thousands of more subscribers And then you know when I say that she looks at me like I'm kind of a loser and you know well She's partly right
00:45:31
Speaker
Thanks to Alex. Check out dominosound.co.co to learn more about the workshop she's developing. Take your creative live course and definitely consider the akimbo workshop. That's what she's here to do. She's on the seventh iteration of that. It's just getting better and better. I can't recommend what they do at akimbo enough. And if Alex is leading one of those workshops, you better believe it's gonna be good.
00:46:01
Speaker
And it's work. They do put the work in workshop. You are in contact with other people who also want to level up. The vibe is unmatched. You'll be a different person at the end, I promise you. Your DNA will actually fundamentally change. Science.
00:46:24
Speaker
Okay people, gotta start seeing some essays come in. For the summer issue of the audio magazine, it's gonna publish on the first day of summer, the theme is summer, the deadline is the first day of spring-ish, March 21st, you've got less than two months to get your essays to me. 2,000 words max, theme is summer, hit me with it.
00:46:49
Speaker
I've hired a local spoken word poet to write three summer poems. It's going to be kind of sprinkled out through the episode. It's going to be something special, something different from the first issue in isolation. That one who was getting my feet on some solid ground, shipping something that was very proud of, very proud of the writers and we were able to put together.
00:47:13
Speaker
It wasn't perfect, but I love it and I've taken a lot of what I learned from that and making the next one even better and so forth. And that's how the ratchet turns. But we need to see it. We need to see some more essays come in. And of course, Patreon, Patreon, Patreon, patreon.com slash cnfpod. That's how you'll get exclusive access to the magazine.
00:47:37
Speaker
for 75 cents per interview, why is it that low? Well, there's a fifth one coming per month for next year, I'll talk about that another time, but you can, you'll see. Oh, you'll see. The intro tier at just $4 a month and that equates to like 75 cents an episode, you get transcripts, exclusive access to the magazines.
00:48:03
Speaker
Other tiers get you coaching and phone calls and more attention. And then there's the 1K MFA, tier four, where you get really what I think is the equivalent of an MFA in one year for a savings of about $19,000. It's a pretty good deal.
00:48:19
Speaker
will make you a better writer. A writer who's armed to go out and make art, make money, and push your boundaries and feel that tension of what it means to step outside your comfort zones. Maybe you've been writing personal essays but I would then push you, let's do some reported work. Do some more journalistic stuff and you'll find that
00:48:42
Speaker
the rigor of being a reporter or journalist is going to really imbue the personal stuff with a lot more heft. You're going to have a heavier fastball.
00:48:52
Speaker
Only five slots available for that. It'll be good stuff, I'm telling you. I don't need to tell you. Maybe I do. Anyway, I don't have anything terribly insightful to share, but if you have something you'd like to say, I'd love to hear from you. Email the show, creativenonfictionpodcast.gmail.com or brendanomero.com. Your choice, I check them both frequently.
00:49:18
Speaker
Twitter IG at CNF Pod at Brendan O'Mara. If you leave a review on Apple Podcast, I'll post a screenshot of that on Twitter and everywhere and give you some love and the only way I know how, by showering you with the almighty rev. Stay cool, CNFers. Stay cool forever. See ya.
00:50:22
Speaker
you