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Episode 5 - “The Ottawa Abortion Doula Collective: Challenging Stigma and Providing Support”
48 Plays9 months ago
In today’s episode, “The Ottawa Abortion Doula Collective: Challenging Stigma and Providing Support”, Alex Howard, Sarah Hedges-Chou, and Anna Dion cover the basics of abortion access in Canada and the barriers that persist, what an abortion doula does, and how you can challenge abortion stigma and support abortion access in your own community.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction: Canadian Humanism Focus
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the Humanist lens.
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to The Conversation.
Ottawa Abortion Doula Collective: Access & Stigma Discussion
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm Jared W. Clegg. In today's episode, The Ottawa Abortion Dula Collective, challenging stigma and providing support, Alex Howard, Sarah Hedges-Chow, and Anna Dion cover the basics of abortion access in Canada and the barriers that persist. Also, what an abortion doula does, and how you can challenge the abortion stigma and support abortion access in your own community. Let's begin.
00:00:56
Speaker
Alex Howard and I will be moderating. And one of the things I was just about to tell you is we are gonna be recording. So if anyone has a problem with that, I guess leave now or you're stuck with us. And the good news about that though is that if you have to leave or if someone you know missed it, we will be sharing the recording so everyone can benefit from that after the fact as well. So I now wanna hand it over
00:01:24
Speaker
to our two wonderful guests, Sarah and Anna, and I'm going to let them introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about their journey to becoming abortion doulas. So Sarah, do you want to start? Perfect. And I will think you've all done it. But if you can just mute yourself so we don't have any background noises and stuff. Thank you so much.
Meet the Doulas: Sarah Hedges-Chow & Anna Dion
00:01:47
Speaker
Okay, so hi everyone, I hope you can all hear me okay. My name is Sarah Hedges-Chow, my pronouns are she and her, and I'm based in Ottawa, Ontario. So I'm one of the founding members along with Anna of the Ottawa Abortion Doula Collective. We all came to this from separate routes, but I'm going to speak a little bit about that. But for myself, I've always been really interested in reproductive rights, reproductive justice work,
00:02:13
Speaker
you know, did that in my studies in my undergrad, I studied women and gender studies, and this was a big area of interest for me. I then worked in the nonprofit sector in reproductive rights for a youth organization and a national organization that works across these issues. And I'm now working within the labor movement. So a little bit of a switch over, but definitely lots of things, lots of interconnections. And I'll hand it to Anna to introduce herself.
00:02:43
Speaker
Hi everyone, my name is Anna Dion also based in Ottawa and really appreciate the opportunity to be here with all of you today.
00:02:52
Speaker
I came to this work, I was a volunteer doula or birth companion in Ottawa. So we were trained as doulas for people giving birth who didn't have adequate support in the Ottawa area. So many people either didn't have family or support, faced multiple socioeconomic issues and just needed someone to help them navigate both the health system and all of the social
00:03:22
Speaker
services and supports that are important to a healthy pregnancy. And so I did that work for 10 years, really loved it, and then had kids of my own and just couldn't be as flexible as I needed to be for that work. And also in doing the birth doula work,
00:03:47
Speaker
Also saw that so much of the focus was on birth, which is great, but also recognizing that people also have other reproductive outcomes, which can include pregnancy loss, adoption, other things, and just recognizing that there was a lack of support for those experiences too. So really wanted to play a role, a small role in supporting people through those experiences.
00:04:18
Speaker
Thank you. So I'm sure many people on here are not maybe familiar with the ins and outs. So maybe one or both of you could walk us through a typical day in the life of what you do.
What is an Abortion Doula?
00:04:31
Speaker
Sure. So in its most simplest form, a doula is someone that accompanies and walks alongside.
00:04:41
Speaker
someone. And so an abortion doula is someone who provides various forms of support to people who may be ending a pregnancy for any reason.
00:04:51
Speaker
And that support is not medical, it's not clinical, but it's emotional, informational, often logistical. So we provide help to people sort of navigating the system and whether that looks like connecting them with clinics or counseling services, providing rise to different places along the different steps.
00:05:16
Speaker
We really try to meet people where they're at, understand what those needs might be and do our best to provide those and also recognize where we're not best placed to provide those and connect people with some of those services. So that means that sometimes our our accompaniments are
00:05:36
Speaker
a series of texts that might last one evening to really walking alongside people for multiple weeks, accompanying them through various procedures or various steps, and working with them to just make sure that they're in a good place, both with the services that they need to access, as well as sort of their own place
00:06:04
Speaker
emotional wellbeing as they navigate that process.
Addressing Abortion Stigma
00:06:08
Speaker
Sarah, would you like to add anything to that that I maybe missed? No, I think you described it well. I guess just to say that as abortion doulas, we really just try to fill in the gaps that are left within our health system. In some places in Canada, we have really great access. We have multiple options in terms of clinics or healthcare providers.
00:06:34
Speaker
But because abortion is so stigmatized, it's not the same as a lot of other health procedures, where you can talk about openly, ask your neighbors for advice, ask them to say, you know, had their knee replaced and like what to expect.
00:06:47
Speaker
if people don't feel comfortable to ask those same questions. So we really try to just be that person for people. So we really play it by ear. It's very client-centered and client-focused. The group that we currently have, it's around 20 members, volunteer members, are collective. And we all took part in a trauma-informed training with an abortion, sorry, an abortion doula on the east coast of Canada, who provides support across the Atlantic.
00:07:17
Speaker
Um, and really what we do is, is just follow the lead of the client. So whatever they need. So sometimes that really is just like getting in our car and driving to or from, you know, their house, taking them to the hospital. Um, and, um, but other times it is, as Anna said, like much more emotional support, talking through, like being a friend and then in the ear, you know, just to help them.
00:07:40
Speaker
cope however they need to. And when I say cope too, like sometimes it is emotional, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it really is just like a, you know, an everyday medical procedure, like going to the dentist and they just need a ride or they just need to find out how to go get that, you know, procedure. So it really, really varies. But we try to be really flexible and just provide the support that the client needs.
00:08:05
Speaker
and it's such important work. So volunteer-based, your whole organization operates. That's incredible. With the work with individuals, and it's such a sort of client-focused service that you all are offering, do you find that you are able to contribute to the sort of overall reproductive landscape in Canada?
Collective's Role in Canadian Reproductive Health
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah. Sorry, I was also just thinking. Yeah, definitely. Like we like to think that we do for sure. And from what we hear from the different abortion care providers, and services that are available, people are very grateful to have our support and be able to point clients our way. So a lot of our referrals that we get are actually through hospitals that provide abortions and they, you know, when they have a complicated case or see a client who is
00:08:55
Speaker
Um, you know, facing barriers to accessing, uh, that healthcare, they often call us and are put, you know, give us, give the client our number. Um, and they get in touch and, and, and we provide support. So there really clearly are gaps. Um, but I think a big part of, yeah, what we have found the work to be as well is, is so much about referrals and information pathways.
00:09:18
Speaker
You know, we're not the best place necessarily. If someone hasn't made their decision, for example, we always point them towards other services, people who have, you know, options counselling in place. And as I said, like in Ottawa, we are quite lucky. And I know not all areas of Canada have, you know, similar services, but we do our best just to point people in the right direction, whoever's best place to help out that client.
00:09:45
Speaker
um and do what we can. So I think I like to think that we are contributing to the landscape but I don't know Anna if you wanted to add anything. I just wanted just to mention that we're we're one example there's multiple abortion doula uh organizations across Canada uh in big cities and small and we have the opportunity to meet with them a couple times a year just to to share
00:10:08
Speaker
learnings, share resources. And so this is not, you know, it's bigger than us and it's happening across the country.
00:10:19
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, the stigma is really something that we need to do away with. And in your experience, how can we find common ground so that we can promote policies and support systems on a national scale to support individuals here in Canada? I mean, obviously, everywhere in the world would be ideal, but at least just in our own backyard.
00:10:42
Speaker
So I think I would repeat something that Sarah said is in just framing abortion as a medical procedure.
Framing Abortion as a Medical Procedure
00:10:53
Speaker
And really, you know, like we talk about, you know, people might go in for Sarah's example around any surgery. It's not controversial. It's a medical procedure that
00:11:10
Speaker
that you need to be educated on what that procedure might look like and also the support that you might need around that. And so really just normalizing it.
00:11:22
Speaker
And so that takes public education, busting myths around abortion that continue to exist. And that is part of what keeps the stigma there is that people may, you know, myths are sustained and
00:11:43
Speaker
really upheld by not having sort of that public education around some of the common misconceptions about abortion. And then I guess also coming back to the comment around reproductive justice and reproductive rights. And so this is a term that was developed in the 1990s by
00:12:05
Speaker
a group of Black feminists in the US, and really stating very clearly that it's every person's right to decide when to have children, not to have children, and be able to raise their children in a safe and sustainable context. And so really framing this as a right, parenting is such a privilege and a responsibility and a massive job.
00:12:32
Speaker
to be able to support parents in the ways that support parents and people who don't want to or are not ready to parent in all of those ways and respecting their right to be able to do so. And I think really basing it in that foundation is important.
00:12:51
Speaker
I think there is more of a movement towards supporting people's choice not to have children. We're sort of seeing a lessening of the stigma there that all women should want to procreate. But I think the choice to terminate a pregnancy still carries a lot.
00:13:08
Speaker
very, you know, very taboo. And so as part of the work that you do, this sort of information and sharing of stories in order to move away from that sort of taboo, you know, perception.
The Power of Sharing Abortion Stories
00:13:23
Speaker
So often we do that work
00:13:25
Speaker
with clients that we work with because they are really at the front end of receiving that stigma. And it affects you in multiple ways, depending on sort of your position, your upbringing, all of those things where you, how it intersects with your own values and what, you know, how you may perceive yourself. And so many cases we will share, there's some great resources around
00:13:55
Speaker
people sharing their own abortion stories from all walks of life. And so in many cases, people are able to see stories and situations that can relate to their own. And so importantly, they don't feel as alone in really thinking about their situation and their decisions.
00:14:17
Speaker
And maybe we'll just jump into and add to something Anna said before, but just that we're one really small group of 20 volunteers in a part of a much broader reproductive justice landscape. So yeah, a lot of the time it is just pointing people towards the myriad amazing resources that exist out there. One that I'll just mention would be called, it's called Shout Your Abortion. And that's where people share their abortion stories and it covers just like
00:14:46
Speaker
It really helps you understand, you know, one in three women have an abortion in their lifetime or people who can get pregnant have an abortion in their lifetime. And so it's just incredibly common and it happens under many different circumstances. So that is just one resource that shares sort of
00:15:06
Speaker
diversity of stories. It's also on YouTube so you can listen to people telling sort of their testimonials. So yeah, we often point our clients towards those resources just so they can see that they're not alone. That although each situation is unique, you know, people have gone through this and have come out the other side and there's just lots of learning and this can be very affirming I think to hear to hear other people talk about it. Yeah.
00:15:35
Speaker
Yeah, we normally have more similarities and we do differences. We just need to be willing to share. If you two are okay with that, I kind of wanted to make this conversational. So I'm going to take a question. Reg has their hand up. Reg, did you want to pop on quick?
00:15:50
Speaker
Yes, thank you. Until Betty Ann mentioned doula last week and Wednesday I never heard of the term so I have to look up the definition, and I think what you two are doing and your colleagues are really helpful to women in this difficult choice of life.
00:16:10
Speaker
You mentioned you're all volunteers, are you compensated in any way, or if not, is the little the organization of which your part is it funded in some way to assist in the continuance of this to the benefit of women.
Funding the Collective's Efforts
00:16:28
Speaker
So we're not, um, we're not compensated in any way, um, the volunteers, but we do do some fundraising. Um, so I will share the link in the chat if folks are interested to our website and to our GoFundMe page. Um, you know, so we were formed in 2019, um, that we existed throughout the pandemic, which, you know, really changed how we were able to provide services. We weren't able to do accompaniment to take people into the hospital or to the clinic.
00:16:55
Speaker
as much more involved, dropping people off at the door and picking them up at the door. So most of our costs, our costs are pretty minimal, but they are things around mostly gas costs, parking costs. We put together care packages for our clients that include comfort items, things like pads for bleeding, pain medication, heating pads,
00:17:22
Speaker
key, like just nice things that people might find comfort in as they're recovering. So those are most of our costs. But thankfully, as we've grown over the last few years, we brought on some new members who are interested in fundraising. So for example, just this past summer, we held our first ever sort of four year birthday or anniversary event for the abortion doulas and we had a big fundraiser with, you know, donations from local artists and silent auction and
00:17:51
Speaker
Um, it was a great chance to sort of, you know, meet people in the community and talk about our services and, and raise money for the cause. Um, so that's mostly how we've been doing that. Um, there are a few sort of opportunities from different organizations that subgrant to smaller groups. And we've received, I think one or two of those, um, during the pandemic as well to sort of help us with those, you know, provide those services. Um, but it is, yeah, sort of a good question and that, um, this should sort of be.
00:18:21
Speaker
work that is compensated and that there's government funding for to provide these services and make sure people are able to access the healthcare that they are seeking. So although we're very happy to do it and are all very passionate about this, I think we do wish that these gaps didn't exist and that people were able to access this without sort of volunteers or nonprofit organizations having to fundraise to fill those gaps.
00:18:49
Speaker
And in that same vein, how do you see this sort of lack of accessibility to services like the one you offer impacting sort of the overall reproductive choices in Canada?
Accessibility Challenges in Canada
00:19:05
Speaker
It's massive. So even though abortion is considered a medical procedure, there's no legal barriers to it, I think there's an assumption then that it's easily accessible across the country. And it's really not the case. So each province legislates access differently. So some provinces you can only access an abortion in a hospital.
00:19:35
Speaker
where it's covered under provincial health insurance and other places where you access it in a private clinic, which might be the only option available to you wherever you live, you'd have to pay out of pocket.
00:19:49
Speaker
And so that's one important issue. Another one is just the distance that some people need to travel to access services. So it's a little bit dated, but there was a study done in 2013 that reported that almost 20% of people seeking abortions needed to travel more than 100 kilometres in Canada.
00:20:11
Speaker
And so we, we sometimes see that in our own clients who are traveling from far and so meaning to either stay overnight to be able to access those services or drive multiple hours.
00:20:29
Speaker
their back and often appointments are either one after the other or spaced out. And so that means multiple trips. And sometimes people may have other responsibilities, including other children. And so it becomes a logistical job in itself. And so sometimes that's part of the work that we do to try and connect people to those supports.
00:20:55
Speaker
And I do want to mention in particular, Act in Canada has some great resources and funds to support people in those contexts. So it has funds to support people that may need to stay over.
00:21:10
Speaker
to be able to seek abortion care as well as support and transportation. So we're able to cover some of those costs sometimes, but sometimes they may be a little bit higher than we're able to and so grateful for those additional supports.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, because they're emotionally drained physically. It's a, as you said, mental procedure. I mean, it's not, you just want to drive a hundred kilometers and turn around and go back. It's a lot more complicated than that. Craig, and then I've got a question in the chat. Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah, perfectly. You mentioned reproductive rights for parents to choose whether or not they want to have children or not, or have additional children.
00:21:55
Speaker
You're all no doubt aware that Saskatchewan just passed a bill I think called parent rights with respect to pronouns. Maybe that we should add the term parents in terms of reproductive rights because you do become a parent and maybe we should add that to the expression because not everybody's ready to be a parent at different times or economics or you could be a 45 year old person and you've already had three children and you don't want a fourth.
00:22:24
Speaker
So I think broadening it out might be something worthwhile to consider. Second, my question is, has any doula in Canada been sued for services? Great question. Go ahead, sorry. All right. Did you want to thank your question? I'll try to respond. Yeah, no, the other thing, if not, I mean, because the next thing is you're providing an excellent service.
00:22:55
Speaker
Do you have liability insurance? And have you spoken to a lawyer as to how to protect yourselves? Because have there been any cases where somebody's had an abortion and because they've had regrets about it down the line, have they turned around and thought about suing somebody who assisted in the process to obtain that abortion?
00:23:21
Speaker
So doula care in Canada, and that includes all forms of doula care, so either birth, doula work, postpartum, or abortion doula. It's not a regulated industry. So there are some trainings and stuff that exists, especially around the more common birth-related doula work. But we were trained by someone who's already doing this work, who is a social worker, but we didn't receive any formal certificates or anything.
00:23:47
Speaker
more formal education around it. So we really do this very informally. And that's why also we form the collective. And so it really is just driven by us as volunteers and our members. And every doula is free to sort of offer the support that they're comfortable offering. So that means some of us, you know, will do drives. Some of us are not comfortable driving others.
00:24:10
Speaker
to and from appointments. You know, people all have their own boundaries and we respect that. I don't know about your question around liability or around suit, you know, if that people have been sued. But I guess I would maybe just counter that also though with some stats that exist. I don't know them exactly at the top of my head. But you know, in terms of regret after abortion, it is very low in terms of what the studies have shown. So we just, we
00:24:38
Speaker
also, I think just to be very clear is that we don't influence anyone's decisions.
Supporting Client Autonomy in Abortion Decisions
00:24:44
Speaker
It's client centered work, and that is led by the client. So I've actually had a number of accompaniments to where the person doesn't end up going through with the abortion, they change their mind. And that is completely up to them. And we support them in their decision, no matter what it is. And we turn around and drive them home and see if they need any, any support afterwards.
00:25:06
Speaker
So we haven't had any issues. I hope we don't have any issues, but I think that that's the best that we can do is just to be as client focused, client centered and really let them lead the way. And we just are there to support them, whatever they decide. I did just want to add, thank you very much for this question.
00:25:28
Speaker
One of the things that we decided early on in doing this work was that there's organizations within Ottawa in particular that support people to make decisions around whether they'd like to parent, how they'd like to parent.
00:25:45
Speaker
And that wasn't a space that we decided that we wanted to act in. And so often if people contact us and they're still in the decision space, we will refer them to that organization. If they choose to go forward with an abortion, we're there for them. And if they choose to go forward with the full pregnancy, we will refer them to an organization that's best placed to support them with that. And so really we're just trying to navigate people to the services that are most appropriate to them.
00:26:14
Speaker
Do they sign a piece of paper to say that they've made their decision? They're out of that decision space and that they wish to proceed? So that's not something they would sign with us. They go through an informed consent procedure at the clinic with health care providers. And so they go through a very thorough process. And so often when people are seeking abortions, they have multiple appointments. They need to get an ultrasound sometimes, and then we'll come back a couple days later or
00:26:40
Speaker
some other time for the procedure. And so that is that informed consent and ensuring that that process takes place happens within the health system.
00:26:56
Speaker
Thanks, Craig. Great question. And actually, I'm going to read Claudia's now. And then, Lynn, I see your hand. So you're up next. Claudia's is a bit of a sort of good segue into what Craig was saying for his first comment. Why do you think more men don't share their abortion stories and how their lives were impacted by a partner who had the procedure? Women are overwhelmingly represented in abortion stories, yet the decision and procedure is consequential to men. I'll go back to stigma.
00:27:26
Speaker
I think stigma impacts everybody, not just people who can get pregnant and do choose to have abortions. So I think it's important that it's talked about in all ways by all people. And that's very much, you know, when we talked about, Arwen Ann was speaking about reproductive justice, recognizing it's not just a women's issue, you know, the decision to have a, to bring a child into the world or not to, you know, it impacts all of us and reproductive justice is an issue for everyone.
00:27:55
Speaker
So I would say, so outside of my abortion doula work, I actually volunteer at Planned Parenthood Ottawa as well as an options counselor. So that is actually where we do work with many people who haven't come to their decision who are sort of grappling with a pregnancy and trying to decide what is the best decision for them.
00:28:12
Speaker
And I would say that we're providing more and more support to men in that situation. So there are some really amazing resources out there actually, providing support for how partners can be supportive of their partner's decision or help them through the process, depending on what that decision is. We also hold options counseling sessions where I'm working with a couple and they're making that decision together as people often do.
00:28:41
Speaker
Um, so I think it is important that it is discussed and, and, um, that men also have that support because it can be, it can be difficult and it can be very difficult to support your partner through the process depending on, you know, what emotions are at play. Um, but I guess I would just say as we were sort of started and just that there's such a diversity of experiences. So it is important that those, those stories are also shared. Um, but I also think that the narrative around it,
00:29:09
Speaker
because the choice has so often been denied to people is that it has focused more on the people, on pregnant people themselves and their decision, which I think is rightfully so. But I would definitely, you know, encourage those stories because the stigma impacts everyone.
00:29:25
Speaker
It's hard too when it's not your body and not your physical experience for men to be sharing that, but you're right, the more open we can be, the more we can normalize. Lynne, over to you. Thank you. I live in Northern British Columbia, a place where access to abortion is
00:29:49
Speaker
fraught with all kinds of barriers, from location to availability of medical personnel, access to chemical abortion, as well as medical procedures, lack of privacy in any kind of decision making, you know, like Thursday afternoon is the ultrasound afternoon for
00:30:14
Speaker
pregnant women, there's just, there's so many barriers around it. So I have a couple of questions. You know, we have lots of people in our community who wear multiple hats. I'm a nurse, I'm a this, I'm a that, you know, and that sort of thing. Is it possible for people to be effectively cross-trained in, you know, birth doula, abortion doula,
00:30:40
Speaker
all of those other kinds of supports from actual medical procedures, that sort of thing. Because we don't have an economy of scale to be able to hire somebody in these positions. So we don't even have a midwife, for example, here or anything like that, right? So that's one question. Is it possible to effectively cross train people?
00:31:09
Speaker
Does online support work to help people and help them gain access, at least to information? Is that a place where women needing support will actually go and feel like they can get the support that they need? Or is this really an in-person, let me hold your hand kind of process? Thank you. Great questions.
00:31:38
Speaker
Thanks, Lynn. Those are great questions.
00:31:40
Speaker
So the first question around whether people can be cross trained. So there's trainings for full spectrum doulas is the term that's used to describe doulas who most often act across the pregnancy and sort of reproductive space. And so they will be trained as birth doulas, as doulas to support pregnancy loss, abortion doulas, postpartum doulas,
00:32:10
Speaker
unexpected outcomes, sort of dealing with the whole reproductive experience. And so there are trainings, many of them are now offered online as a in following the pandemic. And, and so people there
00:32:29
Speaker
You know, they do cost money to support the trainers and educators, but they are available and offered multiple times a year. And I'm happy to put some of those links in the chat. And the question about online support. So in our experience, it depends so much on the needs of the individual person. Many times we provide support over text, particularly for medication abortion.
00:32:57
Speaker
So people will go to see their physician, go to the pharmacy, and then we will accompany them by text throughout the 24-hour period where they're navigating.
00:33:10
Speaker
that procedure. And in many cases, that works out fine. And I guess the other thing about online support is people looking for information on the internet, like with anything. There's lots of all kinds of different information. And so I think what's important for online support is to point people to evidence-based information.
00:33:35
Speaker
about abortion. And so helping people to connect to those specific resources is really important. And certainly, you know, we're based in Ottawa, and we've had some requests to support people who are living elsewhere through that process. And when that happens, we try to connect them with an organization that is closest to them. But certainly if they're without support, we would be ready and willing to help them however we can.
00:34:05
Speaker
I wonder if you could almost create a directory or maybe you already have, and forgive me if I'm just unaware, whereby someone doesn't maybe have a whole organization but has gone through that full doula training and could be almost put in like a pitch hitter, you know, and if they're in more of a rural area and just doing it on a volunteer basis can kind of stand up and put their hand up. Yeah.
00:34:31
Speaker
Oh, sorry. Okay, I can jump in. There are a few organizations, national organizations. So another one is called the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada. And they are doing a bit of that work trying to map the different abortion doulas and abortion doula collectives or organizations that exist across Canada, as well as more formal clinics and service providers. So they kind of do that work as well, just helping people connect
00:35:00
Speaker
to their, you know, local providers or who can provide information. And then there's also just a lot of informal networks as well. So there's a few different, you know, listservs and email lists and Facebook groups, and we often get referrals through there as well. So there's lots of people working behind the scenes who, you know, they're just passionate about this issue. It might be a hobby. It might be their job. As one said, people are wearing, you know, multiple different hats. Yeah, they're working in nursing or social work or, you know,
00:35:28
Speaker
nonprofits. So we there is a lot of informal referrals that are happening and information sharing. I think our concern is just and which is great. And we always try to support that and take part in that as much as possible. And I think it's always just those people who we worry about the people who are not getting connected to those services who might not know who to ask, you know, at that first step of asking for help or asking someone know someone or how to ask, you know, get to this place or
00:35:56
Speaker
to get that abortion. So there is still a lot of work I think that needs to be done just in terms of making that information more accessible. Excellent. All right, this might not be in your wheelhouse, but I'm curious, and this might be a little controversial, but
00:36:14
Speaker
You know, our sex education in Canada, in my opinion, as a parent who has kids now entering that arena, if you will, not great. In your professional experience, do you see a correlation between a lack of education or mis-education and unwanted pregnancies?
00:36:33
Speaker
So I mean, I'm a neutral opponent of sex education and having a strong curriculum across all of the provinces. In Canada, every province has a different sex education curriculum. Some that are very advanced, some that are not at all. There's also the issue that teachers are not provided adequate resources or training on how to seek sex education.
Need for Better Sex Education & Contraceptive Access
00:36:56
Speaker
So just in general, I would say we do need it to be improved in Canada. And that doesn't just have to do with abortion. It has to do with general
00:37:04
Speaker
sexual health and understanding of bodies and issues around, you know, consent and healthy sexuality. So I think in general, yes, I would say sex litigation is definitely needed. But it's not just an education or misinformation or like an issue of not knowing. It's a much more of a structural issue, right? So yes, I think it's important that that growing up, we have access to information about contraceptives, about
00:37:33
Speaker
about and have access to contraceptives.
00:37:37
Speaker
But that's the thing. Even if we learn about contraceptives, I did in my high school. I went to a Catholic high school, and I wouldn't say I had the best sex education, but I did learn about the different options. But would I know how to access them? No. And that's where the issue comes into place. Do we have universal pharmacary? Yes, we do not. So can people afford them? Do they know how to ask for them? Do they have the privacy or access to a community health practitioner or doctor to get those?
00:38:07
Speaker
and that's another question. So it's a bit of a roundabout way to say, yes, I think sex education is really important, but it's normally sort of one piece within the broader challenges that we face. And I don't know, Anna, if you have anything to add. Yeah, she's going to stay silent on that topic. No, I mean, access to resources is always going to be an issue, especially in a country where we're so spread out and there isn't
00:38:37
Speaker
always good education and good care. And I was going somewhere with that thought. And then of course, it slipped my mind. In your practice, are you finding that there is a lot more resource and information sharing? Are folks coming to you just for questions or for support? Or is it a bit of a mixed bag? I'd say it's pretty mixed. Yeah, I mean, I think
00:39:06
Speaker
Probably our most common question is just around how to access services and how to get in through the front door. Because it's not very well known, and this comes back to stigma, always
Challenges Due to Stigma & Information Gaps
00:39:24
Speaker
where
00:39:25
Speaker
where are clinics or physicians or even hospitals that might offer these services because it's not always well advertised or clear to someone looking for those services. So I would say that organizations are, I think voices are getting louder and information is getting clearer if you know where to look, but it's still quite
00:39:55
Speaker
amazed to find the information that you need. Speaking of stigmas, can we talk a bit more about misconceptions? What are what are the most common misconceptions you are both seeing in your day to day lives and practice here? So I think Sarah has talked about some of them already, particularly around risks or
00:40:21
Speaker
medical and health risks around abortion care.
Addressing Abortion Misconceptions
00:40:26
Speaker
Sarah mentioned the issue of regret, which is, as she said, quite rare. There's myths around that it's people that already have children aren't getting abortions, but actually statistics show that parents make up a large percentage of people who are seeking and accessing abortion care.
00:40:50
Speaker
So there's around medical and health risks, there's myths that abortions may affect your future fertility, that having an abortion may mean to specific mental health issues and anxiety, that kind of thing. I think there's, I guess the underlying, one of the underlying myths is that
00:41:13
Speaker
Seeking abortion care is somehow a reflection on the person's moral character or goodness or health or standing. And so that one I think is really hard for people to digest. We often hear that. And I guess the last one I want to highlight, it's sort of related to that, is that
00:41:39
Speaker
is just around the issue that having an abortion defines them in some way. And really, it's just part of their story. It's really an easy decision, but it never defines a person or who they are. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Craig, you're back. Yeah, if you don't mind. I do not mind. I'm not speaking on behalf of Humus Canada here, but would it be advantageous to have
00:42:09
Speaker
a link at the Humanist Canada site or other humanist sites to say if you need an abortion duper law, you can go to these different organizations. Great idea. And we have the president and the executive director on the call. So they could, they could jump in. The webinar is very nice, but I mean, and it's great. But if humanists are supportive of this choice, is there valid, do you see from your standpoint, do you see value to having
00:42:37
Speaker
that link or is that kind of inappropriate from your standpoint, ignoring the Humanist Canada or Humanist Ontario standpoint? Yeah, Betty Anne, do you want to do you want to take that one? I mean, I know there's a work in progress right now to create a directory of our memberships, various, you know, jobs and roles responsibilities outside of the organization.
00:42:59
Speaker
No, I think it's a great idea. I'm not the only decision maker though. But I think important to know, which we all here do know, is that we were founded by Henry Morgentaler. So this is certainly, you know, very close to all of our hearts. And I think the more that we can do as an organization to draw light on those that are putting these values into action, we should absolutely consider.
00:43:26
Speaker
And there is a new committee being formed in units Canada called the Morgan taller committee, so you can expect a little bit of progress. Excellent fabulous. Kirsten you were next with your hand up.
00:43:42
Speaker
Sorry, yeah. You mentioned one in three women in Canada have abortions. I'm wondering what percentage of the women that are having an abortion at any given time, what percentage of them have the opportunity to have a doula? I mean, what is the number of people served or percentage of people served?
00:44:04
Speaker
We wish we knew. That was a stat that was available. As I mentioned, yeah, doulas are not like a regulated profession within Canada. And for ourselves, we're very informal. So I think we would like to really clean up our stats and try to figure out exactly how many people we've supported. And as Anna has mentioned, we've supported people in so many different ways. So there's some that we've helped
00:44:30
Speaker
with rides and doing actual accompaniments in person, but so many people that it's just maybe an email exchange or a text exchange and across our different volunteers. So I think, and I don't know exactly off the top of my head, I feel like we've supported maybe over 200 people over the past four years, but that does include support in various ways. And then I guess I would say to your first question,
00:44:59
Speaker
I don't think all those people who've had abortions have had access to abortion doulas. Although doulas have been around for a long time and people who are providing support that would probably fall under doula support for not calling themselves the doula. I think that's existed in many ways for such a long time and continues to exist just in relationships and the support, how we support one another. But it's really taken off, I would say in the last five or 10 years
00:45:28
Speaker
So I hope moving forward that, you know, a doula, abortion doula support is available to more people. And that's a big part of our work moving forward is just thinking about how do we promote our services, share information about the support that's available out there and not just within our Ottawa sort of region, but also
00:45:48
Speaker
You know, how can we connect with other abortion doula groups and other organizations? You know, this is why we do things like this chat today with Humanist Canada is to tell people what it's all about and to help spread that information. Because, you know, for example, if any one of you have someone in your life who's seeking an abortion, maybe you might be able to say to them, like, have you heard of an abortion doula before? And maybe you can find one in your community. So I think, yeah, that's a bit of our own
00:46:14
Speaker
reason for doing this and hoping that, you know, we can spread the word a little bit and hope people can get that additional support that they may need. Yeah, that's great. Just knowing that that's even an option is half the battle. Bob, you've got a question? Yeah, so one of my questions is in the small town, there is at least one
00:46:36
Speaker
a little shop on the main street that says, oh, are you pregnant? Come see us and we'll help you out and we'll guide you through it. They make absolutely no mention of abortion nor do they view it as an option. Somebody suggested they may be even getting funding from the federal government. I'm not sure anybody knows of that element to it.
00:47:03
Speaker
Not sure how to bring the safety of doula work and things like that, and how we bring that aspect to our community as a counter to things that aren't being said, I guess. Not sure what that turns into a question, and it's outside your scope in a lot of ways, but it is a force that does exist out there.
00:47:31
Speaker
And I'm curious on how you tend to react with it. So that's my question. Great question. Thanks, Bob. So these are known as crisis pregnancy centers. And often, as you rightly said, don't include abortion as a viable option for people in deciding what to do with their pregnancy.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers & Awareness
00:48:01
Speaker
ARC, which is the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada, does a really great job of trying to keep track of crisis pregnancy centres in Canada and actually in Ontario there's more, they're called CPCs, more CPCs than places to access abortion.
00:48:20
Speaker
So it's quite common. And so we try to keep our eye on that list and understand which organizations are active, particularly in our community. And so if someone comes to us seeking support and saying, you know, I was going to go talk to this organization, we will often just check and make sure
00:48:42
Speaker
if there's any concerns about that organization and understanding that, to make sure that we're referring to the most appropriate organizations that sort of don't have a choice, an agenda around people's choice. But definitely, you know, we don't engage with them directly, but they're part of the space, so we have to know about them. Great question. R, R's iPhone.
00:49:10
Speaker
Thank you for putting this on. This is terrific. I'm an all-time Humanist Canada member and a couple of things that were mentioned. I just want to share something that came to mind.
00:49:30
Speaker
leaders years ago, Wendell Waters, Dr. Wendell Waters, he's a medical physician, a medical doctor, then he became a psychiatrist, a professor of medicine, and was in fact the dean of the medical school, McMaster Medical School. And he was an adamant supporter of access to abortion for women. I mean, he was a, you know, he worked with Hemi Morgenthaler and so on back in the day.
00:49:57
Speaker
And he had a terrific article this is, you know, so old research now but he made a great counter argument like that there were people as someone mentioned. Sarah or someone mentioned that all you hear from the anti choice people.
00:50:15
Speaker
Oh, having an abortion is bad for your mental health and it causes problems and it's terrible, et cetera, et
Mental Health Impacts of Abortion Access Issues
00:50:23
Speaker
cetera. Well, he presented the counter argument. Like I say, he was a leading psychiatrist in Canada and he pointed to the research that psychiatrists have done. And it turns out there is a problem
00:50:42
Speaker
related to abortion and mental health. But it was not if you had an abortion, it was the women who did not have access to abortion. They became often depressed and suicidal and anxious. And so he turned it around and said, well, if we want to help women's mental health increase
00:51:08
Speaker
access to abortion. I mean, it's like you say, normalizing it. That was a great term. And I just wanted to sort of bring that out as a historical note. Thank you.
00:51:19
Speaker
Thanks very much for that comment. And I'm a researcher, so maybe I'll go dig up Dr. Waters' paper. Yeah, and so we also see that in the international space. So even where abortion is illegal, it doesn't stop people from seeking abortions. It's just less safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And may I just add, yeah,
00:51:47
Speaker
You cannot outlaw, yeah, you won't outlaw, that's right, you can't prevent abortion, you can just outlaw legal abortions. Yeah, I forget. Yeah, safe abortions, exactly. Just make it more dangerous for everybody involved. Yeah.
00:52:06
Speaker
Okay, no more questions from the crowd. We've got a few more minutes left. I guess I will think about ending with, oh, we do have somebody else, but if you could change, you know, let's say one thing or improve one aspect of our medical system.
00:52:25
Speaker
what kind of pie in the sky change or improvement would either of you make to improve your job, access to resources? I know it's really big, so if you could do anything to improve it. Yeah, that's a huge question. I do have some other hands up too, so I'll try to answer quickly. I think
00:52:49
Speaker
I think the biggest thing would just be around access. I think that is true across all, you know, the medical around access to care, not just for abortion, but for all medical procedures and access to doctors. And I think it's just a matter of more resources to improve access. So that means, yeah, compensating our service providers so that the workforce is healthy and sustainable and that they learn about things like abortion in school.
00:53:16
Speaker
so they can provide it. I think it's about helping all people access any care they need. Yeah, that's a very simplistic answer, but there's too many issues. Okay, Kristin, Kirstin, sorry, I apologize, you've got your hand up, go for it.
00:53:34
Speaker
Yeah, I was when I used to know this woman and by the time she was 19, she had like four or five abortions. I mean, she was using it like it was birth control. Is there any stigma against that within the abortion doula community? I mean, did they dissuade people from doing that? Or, you know, I'm just wondering, do you come across this as an issue that needs to be addressed at all? Thanks. I mean, I'm not aware within
00:54:02
Speaker
our abortion doula community. We try not to pass judgment on anyone on their history or experiences. And also just to say that we don't often get into that. Sometimes that might come up, you know, someone sharing their experience, other feelings around it. But I would say that within the service providers, that access to contraception is always a part of the discussion when they go
00:54:26
Speaker
to seek an abortion. So I think Anna had mentioned as part of the process, you just get an ultrasound and you would speak with someone before you would have the abortion. And that's always a part of it being like, are you on contraception? Would you like access to contraception? So often people who do get abortions during the procedure, if they're getting an in-clinic or surgical abortion, they will actually have an IUD inserted at the same time.
00:54:51
Speaker
or they'll be connected with resources to access contraception. So I would say, yeah, I don't know exactly in terms, you know, sometimes if someone who's having repeated abortions, although that does not have any impact on your health or fertility down the road, sometimes it does have to do with more complicated issues, such as people's like not finding a mode of contraception that works well for them. So a lot of people, you know, women who have adverse
00:55:18
Speaker
Uh, symptoms sort of, you know, if they're on birth control pills, for example, like it's sort of those with the cases where, um, abortion ends up being their option because they're having so many issues with other, um, forms of contraception. So I think in that situation, it's more about what are their, what are their options are they being supported throughout the range of contraception? Um, and, and how can they find the one that works best for them? Yeah. So I guess that can be real. Yeah. For a lot of women. Uh, Martin.
00:55:48
Speaker
Yeah, two questions in the first, excuse me, was I was curious with the clients that you work with, do you have a sense or a breakdown about just the difference or the number of folks who might be pursuing surgical versus medication abortions? And yeah.
00:56:13
Speaker
Thanks for the question, Martin. So I'll just add a caveat that we certainly don't see everyone that's seeking abortions. So we probably have an already skewed view about who reaches out to us. So I would say the number of medication abortions is a little bit higher, but that might just be by,
00:56:43
Speaker
have supports built into their system, so people may be less inclined to reach out to us.
00:56:53
Speaker
Yeah, but since the, I think it's been since 2018, 2019 that medication abortion is available, certainly seen an increase in people being able to access those services. And that was, it was really interesting through the pandemic in that, that became an important ring of access for lots of people. Just on that, before I go over to Shristi, there was a question if abortion pills can be mailed in Canada.
00:57:24
Speaker
Oh, is that a question? Sorry, that was a question. Yeah, just because it was tied to the last answer, I wanted to just jump in. And so there are some providers who are starting to try abortion, providing the abortion pill through mail. And that's always delivered with support, like virtual support during the pandemic. So as Anna was saying, medication abortion has been around
00:57:48
Speaker
It has been around for many, many years, but only came to Canada was approved by Health Canada, I think in 2017 or 2018. So during the pandemic, though, they allowed virtual or no touch abortion.
00:58:02
Speaker
And that involves just going to the pharmacy to get it or mailing and and then having virtual support after the abortion from a medical provider. Perfect. Thank you. So my second. Yeah, go for it. Yeah. The second question really is around personal safety and
00:58:19
Speaker
You know, and we are not that far gone from where you know it seemed for the anti choice folks it was quite permissible to murder somebody who was providing pro choice or women's reproductive rights and so I think that there's still lots of
00:58:37
Speaker
pressure out there. So I was just curious from yourselves as individuals. I mean, this is not the kind of thing, you know, at a cocktail party that somebody, oh, I'm an abortion doula. But so is there a concern at all around personal safety given your roles as abortion doulas?
00:59:02
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for that question. So I guess I'll answer that on two levels. The first is that we recognize this. I guess a couple years into being abortion doulas and we have a bit of a system that we're
00:59:23
Speaker
If someone is going to drive someone or meet someone, we often have a backup person who's there just to make sure that the person gets to where they're supposed to be. Everything's fine. So they check in. And then when they leave the client, they also check in.
00:59:37
Speaker
Um, and so making sure that people are where they're supposed to be, um, while also not, um, sharing clients information where it doesn't need to be shared. Um, and so just making sure that, you know, one person knows where the other, where the doula is and that they're they're back to where they are.
00:59:57
Speaker
And then the other piece is just, and we don't really have a policy around this, but just deciding how we engage in public issues and just making sure that people, that we have a plan, that if something goes sideways and there are heated interactions that we have a plan on how to do that.
01:00:24
Speaker
We often lean on other community resources who are able to do that in solidarity with us. Great question. Okay, finally, final question. Shristi, over to you.
01:00:39
Speaker
That's great. Thanks so much and thanks so much for the presentation. I'm also involved in the abortion world to do research in this space and I wanted to, my, my general question was, how can we get involved in the collective I've tried to reach out before and haven't had much success in terms of like
01:01:01
Speaker
wanting to provide support, so would love to join the collective. So how can folks get involved? And then secondly, I just wanted to provide a bit of a clarification. I can't recall who asked the question regarding multiple
01:01:18
Speaker
multiple or repeat abortions. It is very important to keep a international perspective in mind when we're talking about things like that because in North America there might be a lot of stigma around multiple abortions, but in places like Bangladesh, for example, they have what is called menstrual regulation.
01:01:40
Speaker
So you can actually go to a state funded hospital and because abortion access is illegal in that region, you can get basically access to something that induces your period without confirmation of pregnancy. And that is one of the primary mechanisms.
01:02:01
Speaker
that people use for contraception. So just wanted to clarify that, you know, even the way that that question is asked, I think, can be stigmatizing from an international perspective. That may be the only way that some people have access to family planning. Thank you.
01:02:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think maybe in terms of the getting involved. Yeah. Please reach out again if you're if you're I don't know if you're based in the Ottawa area. But yes, for volunteers in the Ottawa area, we're definitely yeah, always interested in expanding our group of volunteers. As I mentioned, we are very small and informal group. So sometimes it does come down to capacity, because we do need to sort of provide training within our own group
01:02:52
Speaker
to make sure people are sort of aligned with our principles and have the background and are able to help out. But we have been working over the past few years to expand our group and some people who volunteer don't necessarily do abortions, do a little work, but they do help us with fundraising or social media and other ways.
01:03:09
Speaker
So please feel free to reach out again. And then if other people want to get involved as well, I did share a link in our website and our GoFundMe page. And if you also wanted to reach out through our email address, we could help you locate potentially the local, if there's an abortion doula collective working in your own community or other organizations that provide sexual health and abortion services, we'd be happy to send you that information so you can get in touch with them in your own community.
01:03:38
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Anna. That was so incredibly informative and wonderful. Thank you to all of our members for your brilliant questions and for being here and joining us on Sunday. Claudia, one, oh, you're clapping. Okay, perfect. I'm like, we have no more time for questions. Thank you both. Betty Ann, did you want to say anything before we sign off?
01:03:59
Speaker
Yes, thank you everyone. Thank you for finding us today. We didn't make it easy for you, but we really appreciate the effort. Sarah, thank you. Thank you. I am so proud. I'm just beaming here. And Anna, thank you also. Wonderful presentation and certainly something we are
01:04:18
Speaker
Very proud to have brought to our audience. Thank you. And do look out for the recording if there's anyone you think may enjoy it because we really do want to continue to spread the word for both their organization and just the topic at large.
01:04:36
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Voice of Canadian Humanism. We would like to especially thank our members and donors who make our work possible. If you feel that this is the type of programming that belongs in the public conversation, please visit us at HumanistCanada.ca and become a member and or donate. You can also like and subscribe to us on social media at Humanist Canada. We'll see you next time.