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Episode 7 - Divorce: Humanist Style
81 Plays8 months ago
In today’s episode, “Divorce: Humanist Style”, Jarrod W Clegg got to interview Alex Howard, a Humanist Officiant and Divorce Mediator who has cultivated a unique and well-rounded perspective on relationships. You may recognize her as one of the co-hosts of “Dirty Laundry: The Divorce Podcast”, where she gets down to the nitty-gritty of divorce. During this discussion, Alex will explore the end of relationships, the impact that religion has on the institution of marriage, and strategies for mitigating the stigma around divorce.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the Humanist lens. Welcome to the conversation.
Guest Introduction: Alex Howard
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm Jared W. Kleg. In today's episode, divorce, humanist style. I got to interview Alex Howard, a humanist efficient and divorce mediator who has cultivated a unique and well rounded perspective on relationships.
00:00:44
Speaker
You may recognize her as one of the co-hosts of Dirty Laundry, the Divorce Podcast, where she gets down to the nitty-gritty of divorce.
Destigmatizing Divorce
00:00:52
Speaker
During this discussion, Alex will explore the end of relationships, the impact that religion has on the institution of marriage, and strategies for mitigating the stigma around divorce. Let's begin. Thank you, Jared. Wow, I made quite the introduction. So thank you. And yes, I do have my own podcast all about divorce. It's called Dirty Laundry. um And as you can tell by the name, we do try and have a little bit of fun airing out, you know, maybe the the sort of secret side of it, but mostly the point is to
00:01:27
Speaker
empower through education, right informing folks that they can make proper decisions in and around their divorce and de stigmatizing because shockingly, there is still so much stigma around divorce. And as a child of divorce, I felt it throughout my entire life. um And just
The History of Marriage
00:01:46
Speaker
want to get rid of it. Like, what's the point? We're here for a you know, a judgment free zone. So that is a little bit about me. I do I do the divorce side of things. I do the marriage side of things. I like relationships in all shapes and sizes. So
00:01:58
Speaker
Thank you for having me. I'm happy, happy to be here. Wonderful to have you. All right. Well, then let's just jump right in. As Betty Ann said, I love questions. So please feel free to put them in the chat or I guess ask it. I mean, I don't mind interruptions because as I said to these guys earlier, I'll just keep on chatting until somebody cuts me off with a question. So um I know we have a lot of officiants that listen to this. So, you know, we we can see that marriage, of course, is still very prevalent in our society.
00:02:30
Speaker
um for a bit of a history around maybe marriages to kind of kick things off. um you know let's Let's go back about 2000 years, give or take. um you know ah Originally marriage was designed for allegiances, alliances, political reasons, economic reasons. It was very much always arranged by the families of of you know the the families of origin on a bigger scale. so That served its purpose, um obviously originally. And then, of course, we see a rise in Christianity.
00:03:08
Speaker
And that does change marriage slightly in terms of um sort of a more sacred turn. um We started seeing a lot of morality within marriage, which previous wasn't really kind of a thing. um And then as well an emphasis on monogamy, which was definitely not a thing at the beginning. ah So still there was a lot of, of you know, ah reasons around it. Land, um you know, trying to secure your land, trying to secure farming. all of that stuff, obviously for families to survive. Survival is always at the root of everything. um But with with religion sort of impacting marriages, we do see more around
00:03:52
Speaker
individual consent starting to come up. The Protestant Reformation, um and anybody who knows anything about this, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not huge on religion generally speaking, but in and around the 16th century, they really started to challenge the Catholic Church's control over marriage.
Industrial Revolution and Women's Movement
00:04:10
Speaker
um So Protestant Reformation, we're looking at Martin Luther, he starts advocating for marriage as more of a partnership based on love and respect. So that, again, shifted the dynamics of marriage. And then as well, we kind of see this support around divorce. So obviously that had always been a thing, whether it was popular, whether it was legal, you know, there are so many iterations of what that looks like. But that is also when we start to see marriage laws becoming
00:04:41
Speaker
codified. So that kind of changes things as well. Of course, everybody knows with the introduction of you know the Industrial Revolution, we see huge changes in the landscape of the of the family dynamic. um You know no longer do you need land to farm per se women are working right we see the rise of women's rights that changed so much as get as you can imagine um and so. There is like i said still people are still getting married which is always exciting for us.
00:05:18
Speaker
but we see we see a huge rise in divorce as well. Women's movement, they're getting jobs, you know they're allowed to now have bank accounts, you know credit cards maybe without a co-sign or a male counterpart. So you see a lot of that shift in terms of the dynamics of families in general. and And again, this sort of idea about empowering women to actually make a decision that's best for them versus what they're sort of forced into.
Societal Judgment on Marriage and Divorce
00:05:45
Speaker
um So that's a kind of, I guess, a very brief history, if you will, um about marriage generally.
00:05:53
Speaker
Any questions, any thing Jared that i you want to want me to delve into deeper? Yeah. I got a question about during the Protestant Reformation, which by the way, my favorite schism. um What would be the common um cause for divorce back then? Was it husbands, a drunker, wives, a witch? Like what what would be the common source then? You know what, great question. I think a lot of times you see things where there's a better option available, right? So whether infidelity was present or not, Again, it was never really the choice of the woman. So if the man was out, if the husband's out, having a great time, um it really didn't affect the marriage per se. It was more, I think, um like I said, if they had a better offer, if there was, ah again, a different opportunity um in terms of wealth, in terms of aligning aligning yourself with a different family, that sort of thing. Okay, fair enough.
00:06:48
Speaker
Alex, I was curious, are there are there any statistics from back then? You know what? I don't love statistics. I like conversation, but that's a fabulous question. And I can certainly follow up with them. um But no, I did not, unfortunately, prepare actual numbers. I apologize. Yeah, no, and I was curious, I mean, partly when I look back as well, I mean, yeah, yeah, be very curious around, you know, divorce rate, but, you know, people didn't live very long. And so, yes, ah you know, I'm, I'm, I just wonder about death and remarriage. yeah
00:07:25
Speaker
No, that's a perfect segue into where I was going to go now, which was the then the rising of divorce rates, right? So when we look at, you know, let's say 1500 years ago, not only did we not live as long, we also got married a lot earlier. So that is sort of a double-edged sword, right? You were marrying earlier, you were having families earlier, you were dying earlier. So the longevity of relationships are not what the expectation is today. So if we were getting married as we were, you know, a couple hundreds of years ago, you're looking at being married by 16, having, you know, all your 10, you know, 10 children give or take, um, by the time you're 35, very different scenario than now. And so it's not surprising that we are seeing,
00:08:12
Speaker
a much bigger shift to marriage starting later in life. Folks are getting married now into their 30s, into their 40s. We are seeing a lot more remarriages, which
Women's Roles and Empowerment
00:08:23
Speaker
you didn't at the time. And again, from a historical lens, remarriages typically, it was, especially on the on the female side, it was definitely due to death. You were a widow and you could not help your family. You could not work. You could not run your home. You could not do anything, right? Women had such few rights that to live alone as a woman was absolutely unconscionable. um And so your options for employment
00:08:52
Speaker
prostitution, right, being like a bar wench and hoping that that was going to make you enough money to feed your family. So and again, if you're looking at having the amount of children they had, because prior to any sort of birth control, any sort of women actually having control over their reproductive rights, you were so incredibly dependent on your male counterpart, whether that was your father or then your husband. ah You know, then often maybe if your son was old enough, hopefully some of the male children could then go out and work, you know, supporting their mother. But again, the stigma around that, I mean, horrible. And it's ironic, I guess, maybe that's not the right word, but considering we have no real control over when we're going to die, the fact that it was somehow the woman's fault that she was a widow and had to, you know, do these sort of nefarious methods to to feed her family.
00:09:46
Speaker
Unfortunately, that seems to be the plight of women throughout the course of history, but I won't go down that road. But thank you for that question. And listen, if if folks are interested, I'm happy to to provide some more statistics in and around that. um The history of marriage is not my expertise per se, but looking at it through a divorce lens, there certainly are, you can see reasons as to why um throughout the course of history, why divorce has become more and more significant and more and more a part of our vernacular um these days. And then, as like like I said, ironically, the fact that the stigma is still there um is is really unfortunate, in my opinion.
Religion's Influence on Relationships
00:10:26
Speaker
And if you're a widower though, the plus is you got to wear black the rest of your life. So that's always always fun. That is a good point. And I do look good in black, so. You know, not all not all negative. but um So yeah, let's ah let's talk more about divorce. I think one of the things, like I said, I keep ah keep bringing up stigmas around this. And to me, the whole idea about both marriage and divorce i find it so interesting that both are highly stigmatized right so if you're unmarried that's horrible if you're married that's also horrible for you know a variety of reasons if you're widowed horrible if you're remarried horrible like it just to me seems like relationships generally
00:11:15
Speaker
There always seems to be some kind of outward judgment that comes with it. Folks feel like they have a say in other people's relationships. And I don't know why that is and if anyone has insight into this like I'm super happy to make this more of a conversation than a lecture so please jump in. but Again, you see more of that falling onto the shoulders of the women in the relationships. It it just feels to me like you can't do right. Whether it's because you're getting getting married later now, well, you're a spinster. You got married too early, well, you're likely a whore. Like there just always seems to be some kind of opinions from the masses. And so a lot of that, in my opinion, has to do with the the influence of the church.
00:12:05
Speaker
people like to think that they can have a lot of opinions on the way other people live their life. And maybe that is outside of religion. We still see that in terms of the way people are raising their kids, in terms of the way people are you know presenting themselves online. There is just constant judgment about other people. For myself, I grew up a little bit in the church, quickly got out of it, because it was not for me, as I already alluded to. I am a child of divorce. My parents divorced when I was eight. So we're going on over 30 years, and there is still
00:12:38
Speaker
so much stigma around it. And as a child, I felt it. And again, so we're looking at, you know, the early 90s, let's say um divorce was done very differently back then. And I was one of the few in the schoolyard that was a child of divorce. Now, obviously that has changed. changed significantly. We're seeing all varieties of families. Families coming in all shapes and sizes and I love it. I am so here for it all. But there's still this constant judgmental sort of aura in and around relationships. And that is what I'm trying to move away from because really nobody knows what's going on behind closed doors and we have no facts and quite frankly, no place really to say anything about it.
00:13:20
Speaker
um But when you do take it through the lens of religion, it is very much man and wife, right? Like it's it's very much this, you know, nuclear family is what we're all striving for. And when you have that burbiage and that narrative constantly pounded into you everywhere you go, if you don't fall into that, then you feel lesser then. And that does impact the way we all, I mean, live our lives generally, but certain live ah certainly the way we live in our relationships. We are so worried about what the optics are in and around how we we choose to live our lives. And so for me, the the move away, again, just for me personally, the move away from the church for me was just,
00:14:09
Speaker
An attempt to move away from someone telling me how I should be living my life, right? It's this it's the should. I always say, stop shoulding all over yourselves and just do what makes you happy. Because at the end of the day, you're on your deathbed. It's like, oh, if only I had gotten divorced because I was married to this person who I actually was miserable with, but heaven forbid, you know, my my pals in the church choir, knew anything about that or you know you you just feel so tied and so constrained by these outward opinions and i always come back to the irony of it which we're all living that right so if everyone is feeling judged by their choice
00:14:47
Speaker
But they're all living different choices it's like what, who is this serving who is this helping. And so if you take sort of that, you know, look through that lens of who is this serving well again
Empowerment Post-Divorce
00:14:57
Speaker
going back to the church because here we are talking divorce humanist style first let's talk about divorce. in the church, right? Tons of stigma, tons of judgment. In the Jewish faith, you have to get a you know a religious divorce as well. It's called the get. And I just learned about that recently because of clients of mine. I hadn't heard. They're like, oh, we can sign on the dotted line, sign our separation agreement. But in the eyes of our religion, we're still not divorced. So even to me, the fact that like there is there is not a division of church and state still in this generation, in this century,
00:15:30
Speaker
they're still so intertwined, right? A lot of folks are still getting married in churches. And, you know, I recently went to my cousin's um wedding and her and her now husband, very involved in the church, very religious and, you know, good for them. that That works for their family. But the majority of the marriage was about how they were making this commitment to God, even before they were making this commitment to each other. And it's just, it's so interesting to me as, I guess, as an obviously a non-religious person that that's kind of the hierarchy. It's like first is God, then is, I don't know, your partner, your family, what have you. Like, where do we as individuals really fall into place? And so part of the reason I'm so passionate about divorce is I see a lot of, again, especially women, I am going to be biased throughout these things. Let's just get that out of the way. There is this freedom and this liberation that comes on the other side.
00:16:27
Speaker
And I think because of this, like I said, this narrative that we have all been told for so long of like, you got to tick these boxes, you get married, you buy a house, you have 2.2 kids, you get your dog. Like it's just so. pro prescribed and we fall into it. And then all of a sudden we go through a horrible experience because divorce is not easy. And yes, we do try and and bring some levity to it on our podcast and you know try and and and just bring some light to it because it isn't obviously a difficult and heavy time. But then they come out on the other side and the freedom of making their own choices
00:17:06
Speaker
it it It gives me such hope in a way because
Education and Open Dialogue
00:17:10
Speaker
when we see remarriages of those, again, women who have have been divorced and who are looking at new partners and considering marriage again, which again, always surprising after having going through something so difficult that you still want to do this. You still believe in this really fabricated kind of you know situation. but there is this belief in it, but they approach it so differently the second time around. And that's what that that's what inspires me to just think, okay, I get to help people.
00:17:39
Speaker
end something that was maybe not right for them in the first place and then do something new and do something different. And that's what gives me excitement. And it's this empowerment. And so much around divorce because of the stigma is so disempowering because people don't want to talk about it. People don't want to tell their friends, their family, their neighbors because of this fear of judgment. And what that leads to is isolation, of course, first and foremost. What that leads it to is often misinformation, disinformation. And so you have folks that are so malinformed entering something, the divorce process, which is so legally heavy and, you know, incredibly impactful to your future, but nobody wants to talk about it. So I think, you know, I'm i'm segueing into way ahead to the end of this talk, but I'm going to just go there anyways, because it seems to happen. but
00:18:37
Speaker
By educating folks, by pushing marriage dates to later in life, allowing, again, women to be financially independent, to live independently first, it means they're making better choices in their relationships. and that then leads to less divorce. So it's interesting, you talk about stats, Martin. And again, I don't have any, so I apologize. But what I do see is divorce rates are lessening, but also simultaneously marriage rates are going down. So it's still kind of on par in terms of a ratio. We're just seeing less of it altogether. um And so whether that is because of, again, women you know having jobs, being able to support themselves, not being as reliant upon men as they used to be historically,
00:19:22
Speaker
they're actually able to make the decisions that is best for them,
Modern Relationship Dynamics
00:19:26
Speaker
right? and that And that's maybe not about children, right? You don't have to be married to have kids in this day and age, um but maybe they don't want kids at all. And so if you don't want kids at all, maybe you actually don't need to live with your partner. Maybe you don't need to marry them. You can just live happily on your own with them being an ah a value add, if you will, right? They're just adding to an already full life. Like I always hate when people are like, oh, you complete me. You're my other half. No, this to me is bullshit narrative. Sorry, am I allowed to swear on here? Sorry, Betty Ann. We have to get rid of that kind of, of, of you know, Hollywood or fairy tale, whole heart kind of movie lines that set folks up for such horrible, horrible expectations.
00:20:12
Speaker
And if if so if we can do we with that and part of that means having more open dialogue in and around what relationships look like in this day and age. You don't need a partner is one nice to have absolutely but it should add to an already full and complete life and then it's just an additional you know. a bonus, like I said, it's not, you're not dependent on this, on this structure, on this legal, major legal commitment. And as a wedding officiate, just as an aside, I always tell my couples, like, I love doing premarital classes. I love, like, I really want to set them up for success. I'm forcing them to have these difficult conversations in and around finances, in and around children. You know, I, the amount of
00:20:56
Speaker
selfishly, the kicks I get from asking, again, a hetero heteronormative couple, who's staying home with the kid once you have them? And the men look at me like, what but but kind of insane question is that? Of course she's staying home. And it's like, well, actually, no. And have you had that conversation? So I love to push boundaries. I love to, you know, flip the script a little bit and actually make folks pause and think Hey, all of that stuff we've been fed our whole lives, and we are all guilty of it. We're
Communication and Expectations in Relationships
00:21:26
Speaker
guilty of perpetuating this narrative as well, and and of I myself as well. But if we can lip that around, if we can really ask folks, hey, why do you believe that? Why do you believe that she is gonna stay home and raise the kids, and you're gonna continue to work?
00:21:44
Speaker
For some it's because she wants to. For some it's because he makes more money and this works for their family and that's totally fine. Provided you've given thought and you've had conversation around it. But again, the amount of couples that just look at me like I'm out to lunch until I say, well, you know, she's got a thriving career. She's been in school for eight to 10 years doing her PhD or her, you know, medical license or what have you. does she wanna give it up? And so just asking those questions, just going against the sort of status quo, I think we need to see more of that. um and And so through education, through information, through empowering both parties, but predominantly women to say, you know what, there could be another way and you could derive a lot of happiness. You don't have to fit into this cookie cutter mold. And when you grow up in a church and when that's all you see around you,
00:22:39
Speaker
It is very typical to kind of fall into those traditional, you know, family values kind of normative way of living your life. But until someone upsets the apple cart, we're just sort of delaying what could be a ah much happier and healthier relationship all around. And a happy and healthy marriage means happier and healthier children, means a happier and healthier society. If we start judging folks on their partnership choices and the way that they live their lives, I just hope for a trickle down effect that it then... we're just less less judgmental all around you know so that's a long-winded way to answer i don't even know what question i was talking about but anybody wants to jump in please go agree too i think it was 10 minutes ago martin asked something and then um then we just uh got into to right field but no no it's um it is it is it can be amazing how
00:23:31
Speaker
in relationships how few important large questions can actually come up before they want to say I do and sign the contract, ah ah sign a legal document for life. um When you haven't talked about maybe what's the next five years gonna look like, what's the next 10 years gonna look like, how are you guys going to be partners in life rather than I'm going to fill this role and you're gonna fill that role and we're gonna figure it out as we go along. Yeah. And even the way that we've changed from spouse to partner, like even those tiny little minuscule language changes, I think already starts to set the landscape, right? Like I remember you would say your partner and it automatically assumed business partner.
00:24:12
Speaker
Then it was like, okay, maybe this is referring to a heterosexual relationship as opposed to a heterosexual. Okay, so now this is my partner. So you can see the kind of iterations over time of how language also has such an impact in the way we have our relationship. So now when you say partner, well, that's a very different thing than my wife, than my husband, than my spouse. um So I like to push for more of that, right? Let's keep things a bit more, I guess even neutral, um but certainly if nothing else, equitable. Martin.
00:24:47
Speaker
mar e Yeah, listen. Well, actually, the the first is is Alex, you and I have had many conversations around this topic. So um but I want one of there's there's a great book that and, you know, and i and I think, well, you as a mediator, me as a couples therapist. and and And I do marriage prep as well. And so, you know, I'm often struck with how people don't have some of these basic conversations that at the very beginning. yeah and but But to your point, you know, I think whatever the heteronormative model is, there there is a great book um and it's titled Stepping Off the Relationship Escalator.
00:25:36
Speaker
uncommon love in life. And, and so it's it one of the things ah about that is it just, I mean, it's an interesting read um ah in that it just, it opens up the possibilities of thinking differently. So the idea that we move through life and you know, you, you know, you date, you court, you get engaged, you get married, you have children, that escalator is that, ah you know, there's lots of assumptions that are built into life. Yeah. I mean, around this. So things as simple as, ah oh my golly, I mean, hey you know, it's cheaper to travel as two than it is as one.
00:26:20
Speaker
ah right And you know like the idea of solo so there are a lot of and in terms of my life friends who have chosen to be And and I don't think of them as being single but solo living as being a more intentional way because if you mention that you're single and you're 50, you know yeah people look at you as if you're pathetic and as opposed to this idea that, I i don't intend to offend anybody, but but you know the idea about solo living and being intentional, and so not even identifying necessarily as being single. But um but we got did get the luxury of a lifetime bachelor.
00:27:02
Speaker
Yeah, right. That was the term we got. Yeah, okay. Lifetime bachelor, which is often code for being gay. Very, yes. And historically, and you know in some worlds. Anyways, I just had wanted to mention ah that. And, okay. No, that was great. And before I forget my train of thought, I thank you because your your use of intentionality is so bang on.
Living Choices and Societal Norms
00:27:27
Speaker
it's you know so You're not living alone or or living a bachelor lifestyle because you haven't found that other magical person, like I said, to complete you. No, I love being alone. I love having the autonomy to choose how I want to decorate, what I want to cook, where I want to go, you know when I can go out or stay in or whatever. The luxury of that. And I think that's sort of what I was alluding to, but Martin, you said it way better than me. But when when I see women come out on the other side of divorce,
00:27:55
Speaker
this liberation, this freedom that they feel for the often the first time, because again, many women are going from their home like from their family home, family as of origin, to you know living with their partner, their now spouse. and there isn't often that time gap in between where you get to live alone and you get to really experience what that feels like truly. Or if you do, it's like during your college years and you know, you're living a very different lifestyle than potentially what you are at 50 when you're like, no, I actually want to live alone because this is my preferred style. So more and more, it's interesting, we're seeing
00:28:34
Speaker
in terms of like house design and living situations. And again, this is probably for those in in a higher tax bracket, um certainly than myself, but we are seeing this sort of sleep divorce trend and folks living in separate rooms. So married, living under the same roof, but in separate bedrooms. and whether that started because you know some folks are working night shifts or some have terrible sleep or you know your partner snores too much whatever the impetus ultimately it has it has really gained traction and I think for many they look at it like oh my goodness your relationship is destined for the end.
00:29:12
Speaker
But maybe these are the people that are actually living their truest, most happiest way in a relationship where they are putting up healthy boundaries. They're saying, you know, what I'm not putting up with your snoring and having crappy night's sleep where I then can't perform my job or, you know, show up as my best self. the following day, because I have to sleep in bed with my partner? Like, who said that? Sometimes I look back at the shows from the 1950s, where they had the two single twin beds, and I think they were onto to something. This seems not too shabby. You know, my husband always laughs because I make a massive pillow wall. Once we're done, you know, chatting or whatever, if I'm going to sleep,
00:29:50
Speaker
Listen, there's no hanky-panky. I'm sleeping. I don't need to have you here. I need a good night's sleep. I gotta get up. I gotta work. I gotta be there for the kids. You know, whatever it is, why have we put such pressure, again, on fitting into this box? This somebody decided was we should all be sleeping next to the people. Then it's funny too having children. I remember mine were so pissed at me. They're like, why do I have to go sleep alone? And you get to sleep with dad. They're lonely. They want companionship. So we we say our kids have to sleep one way, but then we do the complete opposite and get to have a companion. So all that to say, listen, again, Martin, thank you for for sharing because yes, can we be more intentional? Can we ditch the judgment and the stigma and just say, how do I set up my life for maximum enjoyment?
00:30:40
Speaker
maximum productivity. I don't think productivity like go get a side hustle and, you know, keep working for the man. I mean, like, how can we get the best out of life? How do we set ourselves up for success that that truly be the goal um in in all of this? ah Ruth, you have your hand up. Yeah, I did have a question. I know your job is the divorce media. So most of the people who have come to see you have clearly already decided to get a divorce or anything. How much of that decision or that you just see anecdotally is because people are deciding that those norms or those conventions are not for them anymore, either because say the woman decided that she doesn't like being, you know, the homemaker,
00:31:23
Speaker
And he's his expectations are that she should or that you know the other side is that um she feels or he feels that you know the other person's not living up to their goal like how much of divorce is because one person is challenging those norms and the other person is
Understanding Divorce Causes
00:31:39
Speaker
not. You know, that's such a great question because often people ask me, do most relationships end because of some, you know, inciting incident, whether that's adultery, or, ah you know, addiction, mental health, like something that just kind of happens, and then you can no longer go on in the relationship. but That's inaccurate. I find the majority of my couples that I'm working with, it's this slow burn. It's this trickle effect of like,
00:32:06
Speaker
we no longer have anything in common. We have nothing to talk about. We were in love, you know, 20, 30 years ago, and here we are today. So yeah, I think when you see, you know, I have have all my couples fill out a form of of why they're here, why they're getting a divorce. And it's often that I've had enough. And it's 99% of time the women, again, in a heteronormative relationship, it is the woman going, I don't need you anymore. And I think there is a bit of the luxury in that of saying, well, I've already had my kids, which was a box I needed to tick, and tick for whatever reason, right? Whether that was because you felt obligated because of these societal norms, or you simply wanted children and that's great for you. Once that's done, a lot of women kind of have this
00:32:58
Speaker
They're over it. Like they're just simply over it. for For a lot of relationships, if there isn't an actual partnership, if you are simply taking care of the kids and then taking care of your spouse and you've got nothing left in the tank for yourself, you're over it. And whether that's, you know, clients I've had or friends I've had or family that have gone through divorce, it is simply they get to the end of the rope. and you know we've I have a lot of discussions that we empowered women. We did such a great job as a world society, if you will, of saying, you know what, women, you can do anything. You can have your kids, you can be married, and you can go get a job. You can do it all. You can do it all just like a man.
00:33:48
Speaker
The problem is, is that you can't. First and foremost, you actually can't. And so now the expectation is women are working nine to five and then they're coming home and you know from the reverse of ah five to nine, they're now Susie Homemaker also. And so there's a lot of that, of a lot of, I don't want this life that I was sold, I had to have. I'm over being told that I should be grateful, that I should be working harder, that I can have it all and I can do it all and I should feel fulfilled by it all. And it's like, you know what we want? We want to kick off our heels and have a good book and, you know, or go out or like whatever travel, like whatever it is you want to do, but we're so stuck very often.
00:34:30
Speaker
in the raising of our kids, the managing of the household, and we have nothing left for ourselves at the end of the day. And so I think it's about a bit of a a reclamation of self. It's like finding who you are and what brings you joy so that you can put yourself first because we are so often told subconsciously that We actually have to put ourselves last. We have to murder ourselves for our kids, for our relationship to make sure we have this clean home. You know, again, Martin, I feel terrible. I have no stats, but they're, you know, so the women like that work, they're actually spending more time with their children now than they did.
00:35:15
Speaker
in the like let's say 50s to 70s when they were at home full-time. They were at home full-time. That was the mom's sole job was just to be a mom. She actually spent less hours with the children and less time taking care of the home than the exact same woman does today after working a full-time job. So it's it's so interesting to me how we have empowered women to go out and get jobs and be highly educated and be incredibly successful, but also this tiny little caveat that we forgot to mention, which is also we have to do all the shit you did before also. So go, go have it all, right? And I think that's really where the problem is and where I see divorce today. It's a pushback against that, but we don't do it straight out of the gates.
00:36:04
Speaker
We only do it once we've kind of seen the error of our ways. So really what I try and do is push folks to see it sooner, I guess, to say you don't have to have it all, which is why I love that less people are having kids because they're, they don't want them. And if you don't want them, don't have them unless folks are getting married. Because if you don't want to get married, don't get married, right? It doesn't actually impact your life in a negative way, if if that's your choice. If, as Martin said, you're doing it intentionally, but we just need more of that. And the way we get more of that is by talking about it, is by normalizing solo living, is by normalizing not having children. It's normalizing, I actually want to be a stay-at-home mom. I don't want to work. But now what does that look like financially, et cetera, et cetera? So again, just it if you can make the choice
00:36:57
Speaker
because it's best for yourself, not because it's best for society, then I actually think society wins in a weird turn of events.
Support Systems and Domestic Violence
00:37:07
Speaker
Well, Alex, I can tell you statistically 50% of the questions we have are Betty Ann. Betty Ann, you have your hand raised. And then we have Jay. I'm just wondering about you know families that are, you know and we have a very diverse society right now. So families that do have a faith is a big part of their life, a big part of their decision-making, but also in the household, there could be abuse or just you know real unhappiness. Are we developing as a society, our government supports, our community supports enough that we're able to impact those households and help those women get out?
00:37:44
Speaker
Are we improved in that way? No, I don't think we are. And I think COVID really showed us that. The incredible increase in domestic violence during COVID, it was terrifying. And here you are stuck at home with your abuser, and you have nowhere to go. For a lot of folks, going to their job is getting out. That's the best part of the day. That's their safest part of the day when we're looking at intimate partner violence. with COVID and nobody being able to leave, the rates skyrocketed. and And people were talking about it more, which also gives me hope, right? But no our our society does not do enough of that. And again, not to be a one-trick pony here, but
00:38:31
Speaker
Stigma. It's absolute stigma related. You feel so judged if you have to tell folks, oh, my husband is beating me up. My partner is you know hurting me. If I leave, who's going to protect the children? And so this is something I see a lot of. A lot of women stay in their unhealthy and often abusive relationships because as long as he's hitting me, he's not hitting the kids. And like, that's where we as a society are really messing up. And so yeah, the short answer to that is no, we're really not doing enough. But if you look at, yes, okay, the government has tons of services and and access to all of this stuff. And I think, you know, with um internet and social media, you are getting a lot more access to information, which is wonderful, which is empowering folks, which are getting them out the door. But then once they're out the door, then what?
00:39:25
Speaker
And so I have folks that I see in my practice where you know maybe they're divorcing a narcissist. And I know this is such the $10 word right now, but bear with me for a second. So mediation as a practice, it's a voluntary you know ah operation. You come in, you are choosing a different route than going to court, than litigating. Maybe you don't have a lawyer, maybe you do, whatever, but you're choosing to come and to show up. to negotiate the terms and conditions essentially of ending your marriage.
00:39:57
Speaker
But what do you do if the person is not showing up with that same good faith, right? Because a narcissist, just to go along with this analogy, they love to be center stage, they want the attention, they wanna be stuck in this conflict because they're the perpetual victims. So as long as they can keep this line going, they're not gonna negotiate in good faith, they're never gonna get resolution. So what do these folks do? We're telling them, get out of your marriage. But how in the world can you do that? And so that's where we see people that leave. They just say, forget it. You keep the house. You keep the money. I don't care. I just need to get out. And that is doing such a disservice as well. Because now, how are they parenting? They have no money. They can't you know do all the things that they need to. But as a woman, certainly, you can't just walk away from your children because the amount of judgment and stigma that comes along with that. So it just didn
00:40:52
Speaker
get another long-winded way of saying no we're we're really not doing enough because it's one thing to say hey get out and here's how you do it but then when you're on the flip side the reality of that is just not as black and white as it as it as people think it is i guess Good question. Thank
Legal Aspects of Separation
00:41:07
Speaker
you. um So are we have Jay, who's driving. So I'll say your question for you. um When you're dealing with common law separations, um what do you notice the difference between common law separations and actual legal married separations? That's a great question. For the most part, not a lot of difference.
00:41:25
Speaker
Um, they're, they're really, it's really few and far between. I mean, in terms of like a legal standpoint, like what legal entitlements are, the only sort of gray area that's not pretty much exactly the same is the matrimonial home. So that's when, you know, whose name is on title, how long, like there's a lot more intricacies and nuance with that. But for the most part, from a legal standpoint, common law in, in our country, um, and, and legally married partners, it's pretty much the the same thing. Um, and. And even in terms of why they're divorcing or or how that whole sort of breakdown of the relationship goes, again, very similar. There's sort of three, I think, peaks of when we see couples divorcing. And again, this is generalities, but it's either very early on in their relationship where they've gotten together because
00:42:14
Speaker
they got swept up in sort of the the romance and the pomp and circumstance of planning a big fun party and they're very excited and now the families are excited and the families have spent so much money so what are we gonna do we're just gonna go through it even if we have cold feed and off we go then you know 18 months to let's say a five year kind of range they realize oh dear lord what in the world have I gotten myself into let's pull the shoot so that's the pre-kids kind of grouping Then we see a lot of marriages start to dissolve in and around the like 10 to 12 year mark when their kids are that age, sorry, not the duration of the marriage, but the children's ages, because now they're really independent. You know, they're going to school on their own, just having sleepovers with their pals. You're not as hands on in the weeds as you are for the sort of first decade of their life.
00:42:58
Speaker
And so that's the opportunity where you kind of look at your partner and you're like, oh, we're spending more time together now maybe without the distraction of the children. And we really realize we don't have a lot going on. I don't like you anymore. you're doing Exactly, exactly. Or you've changed and I have changed and we haven't changed in the same direction. And now it's become really apparent because the distraction of our children is no longer there to mask our differences. And then we see the gray divorce, which I know kind of has some judgment even ended of it. But that's when kids have gone off to university or they've moved out. They're starting to have families of their own. You've hit retirement age.
00:43:33
Speaker
And your same sort of of of dilemma where it's like we had different plans for retirement. So maybe, you know, I just want to sit on my porch swing and read my book and drink my lemonade all day. You want to go travel the world. Well, how do we do that together? So those are sort of the three kind of peaks of divorce. And I think that is we're seeing that across the board, whether it's, you know, same sex, different sex, all the sex kind of marriage, or common law versus legally
Maintaining Independence in Partnerships
00:44:00
Speaker
married. That sort of seems to be very common, those three peaks of of divorce season, if you will.
00:44:07
Speaker
It seems to um always boil down to the lack of independence in a partnership. The lack of you get to be yourself. yeah Like you're the you before you got in this relationship almost disappears. And there's not that reminder or check-in or the communication. I mean, I'm gonna say communication seems to absolutely be lacking in um and a lot of these words. Like we never got to talk about issues that we're having personally and then it just culminates in slow burns as you were saying. Yeah, and you can see that too in terms of how fewer and fewer women are taking their husband's names as well, um or you know changing their their their last names. And I think a lot when you get that, you're like, why would I change my name? This is the person who got you know their medical degree or their you know got this job. Why am I going to now give you all the credit sort of thing? So there is a lot more that we're seeing now in terms of like having your independent identity
00:45:01
Speaker
reflected in that in not as common, often changing your last name. um So that's interesting as well. Okay. Oh, I see Jay's finally parked their car. Go ahead, Jay. You had a question? Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sorry. I'm just, stay my I have a blue little Bluetooth connector in my car. So sometimes a little sketchy. So was I guess as a follow up to my question about separation, like I'm a common law versus legally married, like, Yeah, have you found ah like in my own experience, I'm i'm so I am at the your point of my own separation as a common law person. um And I found that during the process, there were a lot of things that because of there were no there was no illegal marriage part of it, it we actually offered like a lot more protection to me as an individual, then there would have been as if I were legally married and regret regarding like
00:45:57
Speaker
separation of assets and all that stuff. Have you found, as you know years have gone on, that maybe there's more of that common law separation versus legally married because people value that independence a little bit more? So let me just make sure I'm understanding. Are you saying that because folks are not getting married as often, they're not divorcing as often? like if If folks are just common law, they're not going through a formal divorce process? I guess ah in in your experience, are you finding nowadays more and more people are separating as part of a common law relationship versus a legal marriage? Got it, got it, got it. Yes, absolutely. They didn't get married to begin with, but they still have a long-term relationship, maybe you have kids involved and everything.
00:46:43
Speaker
Yeah, I would say typically you're seeing it more. I see a lot of what we call kitchen table divorces in the common law world if there's no children. Because as you mentioned, the assets are slightly different. Like I said, the matrimonial home is slightly different in terms of your legal entitlements. But when there are children, they are still coming to me for formal parenting plans. for you know running child support numbers, all of those intricacies in and around the children. Where there are no children, I am seeing folks that are doing it on their own. So it's just like, okay, you take your stuff, I'll take my stuff, let's just you know go our separate ways. um Yeah, there's ah there's a lot more of that. and And I think simply also because there's just a lot more common law relationships now than there have been historically.
Positive Perspectives on Separation
00:47:28
Speaker
um but But thank you for your question. And I like to say congratulations on your separation.
00:47:34
Speaker
People always say, oh, I'm so sorry to hear. And I'm like, ah maybe this is a good thing. I'd say congrats. You got it for a reason, right? Yeah, no, your comments about about leaving a narcissist really spoke to me. So I appreciate the congratulations. It's not not ah not a sorrowful thing. No, you got out. That's amazing. I know it is hard. And, you know, again, in in terms of stigmas, right, where we are sort of de-stigmatizing a lot of mental health stuff. So people are coming out more openly with that, which is helping. It's helping in, I think, relationships generally, but also helping in the divorce process. I've had you know a couple cases or folks are like straight up hey i'm bipolar and i might have to not have these meetings for a period of time while you know i get things organized in my own head and i work with my psychiatrist or i'm you know changing my meds and so i can't make decisions i'm not empowered um to to make those decisions and to negotiate on my behalf so i i can see where
00:48:31
Speaker
As things do destigmatize in other areas of of relationships and just generally in the world, they are having an impact on the divorce world. um But unfortunately, when you say I'm ah i'm a divorcee, it just comes with so much that I would love to get rid of. and I know um you know when when we came up with the the no-fault divorce system here in Canada, that was hugely impactful for relationships and for people just leaving, which is incredible. so more The more that we can change, you know there maybe is someone at fault for the end of your marriage. but It's so insignificant. If you're ending it, you're ending it. It doesn't really matter why. you and From an emotional standpoint, I don't want to invalidate anyone's experience. Of course, it's difficult. If your partner cheats or they gamble away the house, like these are hugely impactful to the relationship. But again, on the flip side of that same coin, now we're judging folks for staying or we're judging folks for leaving.
00:49:34
Speaker
It's like, you know what, just don't worry about it. Let them do their thing and you focus on your own relationship. As Jared said, focus on improved communication, focus on you know boundary setting, and that will all overall help the world and and and your relationship ah in general.
Age, Gender Dynamics, and Divorce
00:49:50
Speaker
so um But yes, thank you, Jay. Great questions. um And in and sorry following ah follow up with that with, um would you say age demographic wise, are you more likely to get a du divorce like say somebody who gets married in the early 20s versus the early 30s? What are you experiencing? Definitely the earlier you get married, the more likely the divorce.
00:50:11
Speaker
for sure. Again, I mean, go back to statistics. But yes, because it goes back to this independence, it goes back to people coming at a marriage for very different reasons, I think. When you're getting married in your 30s, 40s, 50s, you have a really different understanding about who you are as an individual, as well as what you're looking for in a partner, right? so maybe if you are getting married in your, like in your, you know, in your 40s, the idea of having children is no longer what you're looking for. So the kind of partner you're choosing is going to be very different. Again, just a personal anecdote. I remember it was like like my, I don't know, fifth date or something with my husband, and he wanted to bring me to these kids that he used to babysit. And I sat in the kitchen talking to these kids' mom,
00:50:59
Speaker
And he was out playing with the kids in the backyard. And for starters, this is a hilarious anecdote. And if anyone knew my husband, it would just so on brand. But I'm trying to say by that is I looked at him and I thought, oh, he's going to make a great dad because all I wanted to be was a mom. And so this at the time in my early 20s was somebody I really was attracted to for those reasons. If I had met him now, maybe it would never have worked out because what I want in a partnership is very different than I did 20 years ago. So I think, yeah, Jared, to answer your question, the later people are getting married, the longer their their marriages are lasting. But again, if-
00:51:36
Speaker
If it doesn't matter, let's say from like a societal standpoint, if your marriage lasts or doesn't last, then you as an individual can make the best choice for yourself because you're not having the outside influences dictating what you actually think you want. And I think that's the key. And so of course we've seen that obviously through educating women, through giving them financial independence and autonomy over, you know, their, to manage their own spending. Um, that, that has had an impact, but then the converse side of that is, you you know, you, you, there was a study and I'll come up with the stats at some point, but they they interviewed, let's say a thousand men.
00:52:17
Speaker
and said, hey, would you be open to to being in a relationship if your partner, a woman, made more money than you? And 99% of the men said, yeah, sure. It doesn't matter to me. Why do I care? We're sharing finances. This is great. She's got more. That means I've got more. This is a win-win. So then they actually went to, took a step further, set these men up on dates with women who were higher educat educated and higher salary level.
00:52:43
Speaker
It was something like 95% of those relationships ended within the first six months because in reality, the men couldn't handle it. There is still this whole idea behind marriage and behind relationships that is, Oh, I'm a male. I'm the provider. I need to, you know, go out hunter gatherer kind of dynamic. And so in theory, some of it's changing, but the reality, and from what I still see in my practice is a lot of it is not, a lot of it is still very much rooted in these archaic, family dynamics and that hasn't fully shifted yet. It is and you can see like, you know, online resources and and people sharing their divorce stories and sharing how they got out of, you know, horrible relationships, whether it was abusive or otherwise.
00:53:27
Speaker
They are still the comments. If you ever read the comments of these brave individuals who are taking the time to be vulnerable and to share in order to then empower and destigmatize for others in the same position, the trolling, the comments, the just, it's awful. And so until we actually are accepting of individuals for individual choices without thinking that we as a society or, you know, know better, it's not going to change. So my goal is to change that, is to have more conversations like this that say, Hey, you know what? Divorce is not the end of the world. Sometimes it's the beginning of a whole new life and that's what we're striving for.
Conclusion and Advocacy
00:54:05
Speaker
Why not choose happy? Like why not choose every day to wake up happy? And if you are in a relationship that is not providing happiness and it's not going to be every day, listen, there's ebbs and flows, there's ups and downs. You know, if you've ever been in a relationship, you know,
00:54:19
Speaker
But as long as the pros outweigh the cons, you work at it. You stay, you try, you try to improve. But when that teeter-totter shifts and it's it's just not serving you and your ultimate goals, then there should be nothing wrong with leaving. And whether it's leaving your marriage, leaving a shitty job, leaving you know your family of origin because they're no longer supporting your goals and who you are, like we have to embrace quitting. We gotta just be okay with walking away. you know Prior to this ah episode, and then I'll stop because I'm noticing the time,
00:54:54
Speaker
I was just telling Betty Ann and Jared that I took my son to go see the pen Planet of the Apes movie and we were sitting there and it started in the music and it was dark and you know super eerie and he said, Mom, I think I'm terrified. I think we need to leave. And I said to him, Buddy, it's just as brave to stay as it is to go. We just need to know that either choice is supported by anybody and everybody. And I think that's the key to any decision you're going to make, anything you want to walk away from. If you feel deep down like you need to walk away, then do it. And we as a society, as a group of people, whether it's your friend, your colleague, your family, just support them. Just trust that they know what's best for them and leave your opinions at the door.
00:55:34
Speaker
And on that note, I want to quit and walk away from this episode of our podcast. Thank you very much, Alex Howard, um we who to listen their ah podcast, Dirty Laundry, The Divorce Podcast. It's a wonderful podcast, lighthearted, a lot of empowerment, a lot of great topics coming onto there. Thank you very much for coming on here and and letting us ask questions at you. Thank you, I so appreciate it. And please, if anyone has any questions, Betty Ann, maybe give them my contact info because I'm super happy to continue this conversation. I love talking about divorce. I love empowering people to leave unhealthy relationships or to work on one if it isn't unhealthy. So thank you so much.
00:56:17
Speaker
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