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Pressing Desires - We are talking Shameless Sex with Amy and April.
54 Plays1 year ago
Amy was voted 2022’s Sexpert of the Year within the pleasure products industry. She is a sex and relationship coach trained in both the Somatica® and Hakomi Method, certified sex educator, lead educator for Uberlube, as well as co-owner of a mother-daughter owned online pleasure boutique called Pure Pleasure Shop. Amy has a passion for promoting shame-free, pleasure-focused sexuality education while emphasizing the deep emotional and energetic forces behind great sex and intimate connection, offering everything from private sessions to how-to workshops to erotic empowerment retreats.
April has been educating people about sexual pleasure, health and wellness, and pleasure products at a global scale since 2008. She travels internationally as Vice President of Hot Octopuss, an innovative pleasure product company. April was voted Woman of the Year in the pleasure products industry in 2016, and has dedicated her life to the business of sex and pleasure.
Together, Amy and April combined forces to create the Shameless Sex Podcast, inspiring radical self-love, sexual empowerment, and shame-free intimacy. Shameless Sex is unabashed real talk about sexuality with a playful twist. To learn more, or to pre-order their upcoming book Shameless Sex: Choose Your Own Pleasure Path to Unlock the Sex Life You’ve Been Waiting For, go to shamelesssex.com
Tune in to hear from these fantastic and inspiring leaders!
As ever, email me on info@pressing-desires.com
Follow me on social media @pressingdesires
Find out more and work with me at https://pressingdesires.mykajabi.com/
Remember you are worthy and designed for pleasure!
Love and light,
Dr Liza
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Transcript
Introduction to Pressing Desires
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Pressing Desires, the podcast exclusively for women wanting to improve their health by unlocking their mind, body, spirit and sexual wellness.
00:00:19
Speaker
Join us on this transformative journey as we explore topics that touch your soul, invigorate your body, and reignite your passions. From cultivating a resilient mindset, nourishing your physical health, awakening your spirit, and embracing your deepest desires, nothing is off limits.
00:00:45
Speaker
Pressing desires is your go-to resource, featuring expert interviews, inspiring stories of triumph, and practical tips to help you unlock your true potential. Subscribe now, and together, let's embrace our pressing desires and create a life that exceeds all expectations.
Empowering Women through Mind, Body, and Spirit
00:01:07
Speaker
Get ready to ignite your passions and live a life with more pleasure. Yes, please. This is Pressing Desires, the podcast that empowers women to improve their health and go on a journey towards mind, body, spirit and don't forget sexual wellness. Hmm, I'm really looking forward to that last bit.
Meet Amy and April from Shameless Sex
00:01:36
Speaker
I'm really excited to share this episode with you because it's with two of my favourite podcast hosts, Amy and April of Shameless Sex. If you haven't heard their podcast, then please go and check it out.
00:01:49
Speaker
one of my favourites, I listen to them all the time on my commute to work. So just as an intro, Amy was voted 2022's Sexpert of the Year within the pleasure products industry. She's a sex and relationship coach trained in both the Somatica and the Hakumi method, certified sex educator and the lead educator for UberLube, as well as the co-owner of a mother-daughter owned online pleasure boutique called Pure Pleasure Shop.
00:02:15
Speaker
Amy has a passion for promoting shame-free, pleasure-focused sexuality education while emphasising the deep emotional and energetic forces behind great sex and intimate connection, offering everything from private sessions to how-to workshops to erotic empowerment retreats. And April has been educating people about sexual pleasure, health and wellness and pleasure products at a global scale since 2008.
00:02:42
Speaker
She travels internationally as Vice President of Hot Octopus, an innovative pleasure product company. April was voted Woman of the Year in the pleasure products industry in 2016 and has dedicated her life to the business of sex and pleasure.
00:02:57
Speaker
So together, Amy and April combine forces to create the Shameless Sex podcast, inspiring radical self-love, sexual empowerment and shame-free intimacy. Shameless Sex is unabashed real talk about sexuality with a playful twist.
00:03:13
Speaker
To learn more or to pre-order their upcoming book, Shameless Sex, choose your own pleasure path to unlock the sex life you've been waiting for, go to shamelesssex.com. I can highly recommend that book. As soon as it came out, I read it, or listened to it rather, on Audible within one week. It's so good and it is the type of book that you can go back to time and time again. So go and check that out and let's go straight into this episode. Enjoy!
The Journey of Pure Pleasure Shop
00:03:39
Speaker
So hi both, hi Amy and April, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you work because I've been listening to your podcast for ages and it really helped me through COVID when I was working so much. So yeah, it was my downtime, pre and post work shifts. So yeah, brilliant. So thank you so much for coming here.
00:03:59
Speaker
I wanted to start off, because I'm based in the UK, you're huge in America, but I wanted to start off by you just explaining who you are and what you do and just introduce us to shameless sex. Well, I'm Amy. I'm the Amy of the Amys so that people get confused. They're like, who's Amy? Who's April? I mean, if you're watching, I don't know if there's a video version of this, but I'm Amy with the long curly blonde hair and April's the hot one with bangs.
00:04:26
Speaker
I have been a sex educator since 2008. I'm a sex and relationship coach as well. I opened up a mother-daughter-owned meeting, myself and my mom opened up a sex shop in Santa Cruz, California called Pure Pleasure Shop in 2008. So was mother-daughter dildos, everyone, woo-hoo. We owned that for 12 years, sold the brick and mortar and still have the online store, which is lovely, especially pre-pandemic. Thank goodness for that.
00:04:53
Speaker
You mean post? We sold it pre-pandemic. We got very lucky with the sale happening right before that. My short version of the podcast would be April, and I've been friends since 2006. When we opened the Pure Pleasure in 2008, April as one of my best friends, but I don't usually hire best friends because you know how that can go.
00:05:14
Speaker
I was like, I love your work ethic. She's like a social savant to me. She just like is brilliant and works so well with all people. And we were opening a sex shop, which is a really specialty niche, right? To work with people. It's not just like selling t-shirts and help people feel really safe. Welcome. And I was like, April, you'd be really good at this.
The Birth of Shameless Sex Podcast
00:05:34
Speaker
April, what did you say?
00:05:35
Speaker
I was like, are you insane? There is no way that I will be great. I don't even own a vibrator. So I gave her a vibrator. She did. And then she started working in the store. She was our manager for the store. And I'll just fast forward. My version was, you know, years later, April and I both started working in the more of the manufacturing side of the sexway industry.
00:05:58
Speaker
I am the lead educator for UberLube and April actually ended up working for the sex toy company that made the first sex toy I gave her. She was like the global head of sales for that company. Fun factory, fun factory, good stuff. But we always knew that we would create something, some sort of passion project, some sort of offering together. We didn't know what it would be. And then in 2017, we guessed it on sex with Emily. She's a friend of ours and the biggest podcast, at least in the US for sexuality.
00:06:27
Speaker
Um, we, it was called orgasm squirting in the year of anal licking and, um, and we loved every minute of it. And we were like, let's start a podcast. And so we did, it's just to be for fun. And then it just took off and blew up and well, now it's almost seven years later, we wrote a book.
00:06:44
Speaker
April, what do you want to add to our nutshell? I think that was great. I guess it comes down to the fact that Amy and I both love talking to people about sex, but not just talking about it. I think we love helping the world have more pleasure, and both of us find
00:07:00
Speaker
I mean, I know that I found myself in this line of work. I studied law and I'm so happy that I didn't become a lawyer and that I actually became some kind of Duchess of Dildos, right, on some level because it's been a passion project that's turned into just life's work and
00:07:20
Speaker
an amazing thing to be a part of in the podcast. I love podcasting so much because it's a form of free speech where people wouldn't be able to get the information they deserve anywhere in the world. And they really can almost anywhere in the world, right? So it's just a pleasure to be in this business and to talk to you today.
00:07:42
Speaker
Oh, thank you. Well, you guys always seem to have so much fun. That's what I always think about your podcast is that you just have so much fun together. So, yeah, such a privilege to work with a friend when you're so both aligned in your missions.
00:07:57
Speaker
Yeah. It's nice to have co-host because if someone's feeling sometimes I'm sure you're, you're an only, you know, the only host on your show. And sometimes you aren't probably feeling the, the, uh, the vibe to podcast. And so we'll pick each other up. And then sometimes we're both just kind of wild. Like we drank way too much coffee.
00:08:14
Speaker
So that happens too.
The Adventure of Writing a Book
00:08:16
Speaker
We're like, ah, I'm so excited. So it is fun. And it's sex. It's just fun to talk about. And we definitely should have had a therapist while writing a book because there were times where we're like, uh, this is really hard. We need help communicating. We know the tools. They're not working. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Your book is fantastic. So I'm
00:08:34
Speaker
I'm most of the way through it already, so it's only come out this month. So that's how good it is, is something that you just have to keep reading through, or for my, in my case, I'm listening because I've got it on Audible. So I'm on the commute, so I'll probably finish it tomorrow morning, so I don't know what I'm going to do after that. But I love the format and the structure of this book.
00:08:55
Speaker
because you kind of reference it in your book that it's a bit like an adventure, isn't it, where you can kind of follow your track and go back and forth in between it depending on what you're looking for, as well as you sharing relevant podcast episodes as well, which is, I think, really helpful. But why don't you tell us a bit about why you decided to do the book when you share so much information on your podcast already?
00:09:20
Speaker
Well, obviously, podcasting is great. And we now have hundreds of episodes. And sometimes it can be a little bit daunting to try to find what you're looking for in terms of cycling through all of the content that a podcast provides you. Plus you have an hour of content, sometimes an hour and a half. And there might be a specific piece of information that you're trying to gain from that episode.
00:09:46
Speaker
But you're driving and you're on a commute and then you have to drive back and you didn't quite get to where you wanted to go to in that episode. So we sort of took all of the questions that we received over the years. We had, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of questions if we want to be real, maybe thousands, right? And we noticed there was a general context, like categorizing those. You could break them down into almost eight general
00:10:12
Speaker
general kind of, I don't want to say like overall, like the nuances of each, I guess, the overall content. The themes. The themes. Yeah, exactly. The themes. So we realized,
Exploring Sexuality through Choose-Your-Own-Adventure
00:10:27
Speaker
we're like, wait a second. All of them sort of have these same undertones. And so the book, when we had talked about it years ago, we always thought it would be genius.
00:10:36
Speaker
to have both of us love to choose your own adventure books because you could choose your own ending and if you didn't like the ending because you chose a specific adventure that maybe you were like, damn it, I wanted to figure out this abominable snowman or how to kill it or I don't remember exactly now because it's been years. I'm going to sexually abominable snowman. Yeah, well, that sort of- That was not in those books. That was not in those books for children.
00:11:04
Speaker
But you could you could go back and change your story and and then the outcome that you had in those books and Amy and I were always talking about this map and
00:11:14
Speaker
because everybody's sex lives and everybody's journey and everyone is so different. So I could be so cool if there was a map or if there was a guide. And this was in 2018 that we had come up with this sort of this adventure concept, this sexual adventure concept. And fast forward to I think 2000, at the end of 2019, I think was it 2019 we approached or was it
00:11:39
Speaker
Maybe it was. Time is so strange. But we were approached by now our literary agent asking us if we would ever consider writing a book. And it had been a dream of Amy and myself since childhood for me. And so we kind of took that concept and then took the hundreds of hours of audio that we had and took those
00:12:03
Speaker
Lots of questions came up with the categories that each question kind of had that same theme that Amy mentioned. And we wrote this choose your own adventure, but it's a choose your own pleasure path, nonfiction book. So you can go back to it again and again. And even though, Lisa, you're almost done.
00:12:25
Speaker
you might want to go back and revisit some sections again when things come up because even experts, even sex experts, even therapists, even doctors have their own sexual journey. So it's a book for everyone.
00:12:40
Speaker
Yeah, and it's definitely laid out like that. That is something that you revisit. So it isn't just a read through once. So I'll definitely be recommending it to all of my clients and patients because I think it's really useful and a really easy read that isn't
00:12:56
Speaker
too intimidating to read and something that it's actually quite fun to read. I find it really, really interesting as well. Did you get some of the comedy? We have a lot of jokes in there sometimes. Yeah, I get the humor. And the same with your podcast is that you have questions that you're sent and then you answer those M from your own personal perspectives. But what are the kind of common questions that you often hear?
00:13:25
Speaker
Well, so coming back to the book, but this coincides with the questions that we often hear, a lot of folks think they're asking one question, but there's an underlying question beneath it. And the most common one is the first chapter of our book is Am I Normal? And so if you're asking about, you know, I have a hard time having orgasm with my partner during partnered sex or in penetrative sex, and you know, what do I do?
00:13:46
Speaker
usually they want to hear, but am I normal or am I broken? Am I broken is chapter two. So it's those kinds of things. And that's why we started the book from these, these, what sounds like less exciting or spicier, fun and playful. Am I normal? Am I broken? And then as the book moves on, now you're on chapter seven. Now it's in like, how can I have hotter, steamier, more connected sex?
00:14:07
Speaker
How can I become a sexual master?
Communication and Mastery in Sexual Relationships
00:14:09
Speaker
Things like that. So it's like you kind of have to go through some of the darkness or the heaviness to get to the fun playful light side. So we do receive a lot of questions are about the light shiny stuff too, but a lot about how to be a sexual master, right? Like how do I master the art of pussy play or pleasing my penis owning partner? You know, I want to be the best lover possible.
00:14:32
Speaker
And I don't know, April, what she thinks is more popular. I personally think we receive more of the questions from people that are like, I'm having a problem. I'm having an issue and I would like help. And underneath that is, am I normal? Am I broken? Or are we broken about relationships?
00:14:52
Speaker
And then we all, and then I'd say to me, at least the second runner up is how do I become a badass lover? And then there's all the other pieces too that we've tied into the book. Also like, how do I talk about sex communication? Obviously it's a huge thing, but communication is woven into all of those pieces. And then with every sex question we answer, it almost always comes down to like, you know, what's your communication like? Have you really communicated it fully? And like, here's even more tips on how you can communicate it in an even better, bigger, more clear way.
00:15:21
Speaker
And also, did you notice at all, when you're reading the book or listening to the book, that it kind of goes through the past, right? To the present, to get to the future. And we didn't intentionally do that. And the publishers, like our editors, when they were going through it, they're like, did you need to start with all of the really heavy stuff first?
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, because if you want a spicy sex life, if you want to become a master, you got to go backward to get to where you are now to move to that like spicy, hot mastery that people crave. Well, seeing the parts of yourself that could use more work.
00:15:57
Speaker
or maybe feel like you have trauma or shame, hence the name Shameless Sex. And by the way, Shameless Sex isn't about living a life free of shame forever. It is about looking at your shame, getting really clear on it or your trauma, and looking at it as an opportunity or a tool to work with it for a better, more connected sex life with yourself.
00:16:19
Speaker
and others, so I know that we couldn't make the title of the book or the podcast, like, how to have less shame, shameless sex, and use shame as a tool podcast. Not SEO-friendly. But it's just like, okay, here's an opportunity for this really heavy stuff to go do some sort of work, and we give you a lot of options, formulas, tools, all kinds of things that aren't even on our podcast, so you can figure out how to navigate that, right? Like, there isn't one tool set that works for everyone, other than consent. Consent's a great tool set for everyone.
00:16:47
Speaker
But, you know, I'm working through your various relational or sexual issues. You decide what tools work for you. We lay all of those out from other doctors, educators, therapists, as well as that of our own. So you can figure out, yeah, you're a unique sexual being. So the tools should be unique to you too.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think like that is the genius of the genius of you guys and shows your experience and your knowledge in the field, that, you know, you've got to start with that stuff, because you have to acknowledge and validate someone's feelings. And you can never get to the mastery if you haven't actually decided where your starting point is. So yeah, I can't see how you would become the like, the Duchess of Dick, like you say,
00:17:30
Speaker
in one of your chapters without acknowledging, right, where's my starting spot and how do I feel about it and have I got that underlying question of am I normal? Is there anything wrong? Because that's the commonest thing that I get in my field is always wrapped up in that. So as soon as you say, oh yes, this is really, really common and no problem here, no pathology, no disease,
00:17:55
Speaker
But let's make a workaround and find out what your real goals are.
Adapting Desires in Long-Term Relationships
00:18:00
Speaker
You can only move from that point, I feel.
00:18:06
Speaker
But the later chapters in your book are definitely the spicier stuff which is obviously what lots of people will want to hear and you give really practical advice and tips of what to try but like you said it always comes down to communication because what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for the other so you can't become the Duchess of Dick on
00:18:43
Speaker
But skills that work with one partner don't necessarily work with another, do they? So you have to just go back to the basics of communication, whether or not you think that's sexy or not. Also, your body changes. You change as a human. Your desire, your needs, that's one thing that I've learned while writing the book, too.
00:18:56
Speaker
on one person and expect it.
00:19:04
Speaker
My desire changed for my body. It was changing but hitting 40 being More aware of the avenues I could I could take to explore my body too from all of the information that we received so I think that's a Really important point to highlight is that it's not even about the partners that you're in relationship or a sexual relationship with it's also about yourself and nothing is wrong with you and you're not broken and
00:19:30
Speaker
It seems like that's one of the hardest issues or challenges that people come across. Isn't that I'm single and what worked for this other person doesn't work for my new casual sex partner or my new partner. It's my long-term partner changed or the sex changed. And they both happened, but it's that much you probably see with your clients, right? It's like, well, what happened? We had this great or good sex for so long and now it's different. And that
00:19:56
Speaker
is such an important thing for us and for you and for anyone that works in the human sexuality field to, one, normalize and then give options for how you can work with that. But it's so funny that that's like, I know funny is not the right word, but interesting baffling to me, I guess, that people still don't think that's normal to hit this big change in long-term relationships, but it is. You're going to hit it. If you're in with someone for X amount of time and X amount of times over one day, longer than one day, you will see some sort of shifts.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah and I think that just reflects the fact that women don't talk about sex that much and don't communicate the fact that things have changed and don't get to know what's working for them now because that's one of the common things that I find is that when I try and when we work through like how do you communicate what you want, what do you want,
00:20:48
Speaker
that's where they draw a blank, they don't know what they want and then that's very hard then to communicate to a partner if you have no idea what you want anymore because what you thought you wanted just doesn't work anymore or you're just not as interested in it anymore.
00:21:03
Speaker
And sometimes I, as an expert, which sometimes I get a little scared saying that, but I still get moments with my long-term partner. I have moments. I get into these bouts of being shy to talk about what I want in the bedroom or to
00:21:26
Speaker
explain. So it's not a perfect science, right? It shifts. And it's about practicing. And I want to say that's why being gentle with yourself and having patience and then having trust in your partner. I trust my partner fully, but I still have that shame that was conditioned into me.
00:21:44
Speaker
from a young age onward about my desire as a woman, and is my desire okay? Is it weird that I want these things? Should I feel bad about those things? How do I explain those things? Or am I gonna be judged? And that can be scary. So I just wanna just normalize the fact that even for, I know for Amy too, sometimes it's hard to communicate. And communication's just that.
00:22:14
Speaker
That shit that you're just like, oh, it's so important, but sometimes it's so difficult. Where's Emily Morissette?
Discovering and Expressing Desires
00:22:20
Speaker
Communication is lubrication. It's not just the shit. It's the shit. I know. If only we were all mind readers, it would make it so much easier.
00:22:32
Speaker
But then that's not the fun part. Surely the fun part is the exploration. It's gonna be boring if everyone just understood me all the time. Like, well, you already figured it out, so here we go. Yeah, no bother. So what would your advice be to a
00:22:47
Speaker
woman who's drawn a complete blank as to what they want and so they know they have to communicate it, they're ready, they know it's going to be a really vulnerable moment, but what if they're completely blank as to what they want and what will turn them on? What would your advice be to that lady?
00:23:07
Speaker
get really good at drawing. No, I'm just kidding. Pictionary. Play Pictionary. Sounds like Countess of Cock. No. So what comes to mind for me is there's like the blank of just the spotlight. Like I might actually know what I want, but someone asked me what I want and now I'm frozen. And then there's a blank, like I literally don't know what I want.
00:23:27
Speaker
Um, and I know I'll let April comment on that if I literally don't know what I want because April has some, some good things to say about that one. So I'll just speak to the one where I'm like, I'm frozen. Cause I've been this person. Like I know some of the things I want and like, but someone's like new casual, like tell me what you like.
00:23:42
Speaker
I don't know. Try some things. So, and I, when I feel into that for myself, like, so why is that? I feel like I'm on the spot. So it's kind of like when, um, rapid fire questions, like, okay, rapid fire, go, tell me what's your favorite food, your favorite book. I go blank. Me too. I'm like, can I take five minutes and maybe an hour to think about these things? Maybe I just want to be all thoughtful or shit. I don't know some shit like that. I'm not, but so whatever your reason is for feeling kind of frozen or blank. So you know what you, you do know what you like, but you don't know how to say it.
00:24:13
Speaker
One thing I would say is if you feel like you need more time, take time. So, hey, I'm actually not really like, and when you ask me that, thank you for asking me that. So be kind to your partner. Don't ask me that. Why'd you ask me that? But thank you for asking that. And I feel like I need some time to like feel into that. So I'm just going to like take a couple of minutes of myself, maybe close your eyes, take some breaths, maybe put your, let your hands kind of like rub over your body and see like what sounds nice right now. And it doesn't have to be all the answers.
00:24:39
Speaker
I want this and then this and then this kind of orgasm. It could just be this exact moment right now. Just having your hands grazing over my bare skin lightly would feel really nice and then we'll see what happens. So it's just like starting, so it's a kind of a combination of like taking your time to figure out what you, what's coming to you and also knowing that it might be different, right? Like what you want to yesterday might be different from today. So it is actually helpful to take that time and however long it takes for you to get to it.
00:25:06
Speaker
and then starting with each step. Right now, I want this, and I'll let you know the next thing I want.
The Role of Self-Pleasure and Intimacy
00:25:10
Speaker
Okay, now the hands are grazing over my skin. That feels really nice. Now, I've got a way to kind of like grab and knead on my skin, and I want you to like make your way to my breasts and like start grabbing. Oh, actually, no, no, no, not the breasts. I changed my mind. The breasts are not what I'm wanting right now. I'm going to maybe like bring your way down to my thighs or, oh, actually, I don't want any touch right now. Let's just take a moment there.
00:25:27
Speaker
That's all okay. We just don't usually play that way. Yeah. I think a self-pleasure practice. This is for like when people don't know what they want, right? When they don't know what, what, if you are clueless about what you want and you, you might be a very confident more speaking to Volvo owners, we're speaking to women right now, right?
00:25:45
Speaker
But you can be a confident human and still in life and still in the bedroom, get totally locked, like lockjaw or just, yes, you just might not know how to explain it.
00:26:00
Speaker
And so I, and we talked about this so much in the book, but a self pleasure practice, which is masturbation, right? And people might not understand what the importance of masturbation or self pleasure practice is, but you can incorporate it. So you can just do something one, one or two days a week.
00:26:19
Speaker
meaning on your own you have this space where you are by yourself there's no distractions your phone's not on if you want to watch porn that's totally up to you porn we talk about it's great for entertainment it's not for education so you're not trying to necessarily expect to mimic everything that's happening in the porn you're watching and if you're not into porn you could listen to erotica or you could just put on some music and
00:26:42
Speaker
As Amy said, you could be touching yourself, not even on your genitals, not even on erogenous zones, but you can, right, use toys or your hands on your genitals to start figuring out what you like. What areas are you more of an internal stimulation person? Do you like
00:27:01
Speaker
Do you like the buildup? Do you like the arousal? Do you like the blood flow happening? Are you more of an external person? Do you like more of sensation around your thighs, your inner thighs, maybe teasing around the vulva, or do you need a finger in the bum? So these are things if you can start exploring and practice is a thing. It's not, oh, I did this one time and now I know that I'm gonna like that all the time, especially with hormones and things that shift in life stress, environmental factors.
00:27:30
Speaker
All sorts of things that can come up. Those pieces that you really enjoy one day may shift another day. If you feel comfortable enough and you have this self-pleasure practice going on and you're confident in exploring this with a partner, you could do mutual masturbation. So you can also pay attention to the way your partner is masturbating at the same time.
00:27:53
Speaker
And then you can incorporate that without even using real verbal statements. You could use the cues that you saw from them while you were doing a mutual masturbation session. Now it does take trust and comfort, right? You need to, and hopefully being vulnerable in front of your partner.
00:28:11
Speaker
Is something that you're willing to do because sex is a vulnerable thing in even if you're wearing a blindfold, which could be helpful. It's still vulnerable. So if you are getting to in your head in this mutual masturbation session, or if it just sounds scary.
00:28:27
Speaker
You could take an element out and remove the site and just have your partner watch you as you're masturbating either with your hands or a sex toy to see what you do and then vice versa. And then you can take those actions of what you witnessed into the bedroom and that can help you not necessarily have to communicate with words, but you can communicate with your body.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I'm a massive fan of recommending mutual masturbation. I think that is such I think that's essential for all couples really. And I love talking about the neuroscience behind that and why that works.
00:29:06
Speaker
because there's these mirror neurons in our brains that actually boost that intimacy if you're doing something with another person at the same time. So you build that intimacy in your brain and that connection so you get that deeper connection in your
00:29:24
Speaker
in your intimacy together. So it's a really good way of actually boosting and reigniting the connection sometimes because in long term relationships often that's kind of missing and that's a really quick way to reignite your sense of deeper connection. So yeah, I just think that's really key to just
00:29:42
Speaker
get into that safe space of just exploring what works because these days we're all so stressed, all so busy, aren't we, that it's really hard to get out of your head and into that zone. So actually just giving you that space to actually just see what happens and just do one thing at a time. And like you said, Amy, about just start with the caressing and then let's see what occurs to be next and just go with your intuition rather than just having it all worked out right at the start.
00:30:11
Speaker
And we talk about the slowness a lot in the book, go slower than slow and then slower than that. And the funny thing is, when I do mutual masturbation session with my partner, he owns a penis. And I'm like, wow, you're really fast. He's a 55-year-old man. And I'm like, oh my god, you must have masturbated really fast when you were little. I was like, mom's coming, so you have to get things over with.
00:30:34
Speaker
So those are little bits of information that you can take into the touch with your partner. But I think, yeah, the slowness, because I realized how much slower I like to be touched than when I initially started masturbating. I think I was like humping a teddy bear and going really fast too, because mom was maybe coming into the room, right? When I was like seven years old. Yeah, you forgot that in your book or in the podcast.
00:31:00
Speaker
She was a lady bear named Barry. Yeah, she had a flannel dress. Very cute.
00:31:07
Speaker
But talking about your, I was really interested in this when you share your story of, you know, you're from a really conservative background, which I am too.
April's Journey in Sexual Openness
00:31:17
Speaker
And lots of people here in Wales have got very conservative approaches to sex. It's definitely a taboo subject over here. So Raiz's eyebrows, me being a doctor that is openly talking about sex and have vibrators in my medical bag and lube and being like, use this, use this.
00:31:37
Speaker
But how did you, I find it really fascinating that the job that you do now where you're so open about sex and so open about your personal experience with sex and what you like and your journey through it, how did you go from such a conservative background with your family or how do they feel about what you do now?
00:31:59
Speaker
Do they know like my mum would not listen to anything I do? I don't think any of my family understand what I do. And they would definitely use the word something sexual. You know, it's funny with with my the evolution of my career in this field,
00:32:20
Speaker
It's definitely taken a turn. I think the podcast before when I worked, because I work with Hot Octopus now. I'm a co-owner in Hot Octopus, which is a UK company from London and mostly penis toys, right? And so before I worked with Fun Factory and I give my mom sex toys. And when I worked at Pure Pleasure Shop back in the day, my mom, I told her it was a lingerie store
00:32:44
Speaker
And when she came to visit me in Santa Cruz, California, because we're from the Midwest, which is the central part of the United States. For those of you who don't know, it's more of that. It's not coast to coast. It's very corn fed, blue collar kind of is what we say. And people are really nice, but they're not very open when it comes to sex. It's like, okay.
00:33:06
Speaker
Sex is not, is not, I mean, I think, I think that blow jobs are still illegal in the state that I grew up in. Like if you get caught giving a blow job, it's illegal, which is, it's beyond me. Anyway, that's it. Really? It's like extramarital blow jobs or something. No, I think it's just a blow job. It's so safe. It's lovely. Come on.
00:33:27
Speaker
It's just bizarre. With my mom, she came to the sex shop and was like, oh, not knowing really what to do. It was a super high end, beautiful brick and mortar store when it was there. And I just said, I have nothing to hide from you, but it was quite
00:33:44
Speaker
difficult for me to explain to her what I did. And then moving on, even when I go back to the Midwest or talk to friends from the West, they still think I'm in porn. And I'm like, no, no, I've never actually taken a video of myself having sex with anyone. I just talk to people about sex and relationships. They're very different, everyone, by the way. They're very different.
00:34:05
Speaker
And my parents now are so proud of me and my father was never really in my life but has become in my life. And I give him the sex toys from my company, not asking him for details. But I'm like, yo, you got a divorce after 26 years of marriage.
00:34:21
Speaker
This is for you. Here's the toy. If you need to know how it works, there's some instructional videos online. And my mom, you know, my mom worked at a church. She tells her friends, I don't actually know. I've asked her, but she's been on our show. Yeah. We had a mom episode. We had a mom episode. We haven't seen that. I'm going to have to listen to it. It was back in, I think in 2018. Yeah, it was a long time ago.
00:34:41
Speaker
It was a long time ago and she got really embarrassed because I asked her about her last orgasm and she got really embarrassed and like got mad at me after. She was like, why did you do that to me? Like it's shameless. That's what you expect. Yeah. And so the shame, the shame. And so there with the book, she's so proud of both of us, of both Amy and myself. And she is like, I can't believe my daughter's an author and we've come a long way, but I don't think she tells her friends
00:35:07
Speaker
Still exactly what I do because I asked her are you gonna get any of your girlfriends? And yet my mom's in her 60s. I'm like the book it's it's for anyone if you're 18 or 65 or 85 I think that you could benefit and she's like, oh no, I don't think that they would understand and Mike mom, it's not it's not material that is going to be disgusting to anyone so hard time with it and then let them have a hard time with it and
00:35:35
Speaker
But she's too afraid of the shame. Yeah, exactly. And it's her community. And so I understand that. And so everyone has their own boundaries. But I want to just add to the knowing April, then also for myself, even though I grew up in a more progressive environment, there's certain aspects of sexuality or being sexual or just naked that didn't come natural to me, even though I was born naked.
Creating Safe Spaces for Sexual Discussion
00:35:55
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, I had to wear all this clothes. And now I'm known as the woman who likes to be naked most of the time, if possible.
00:36:03
Speaker
But I had to learn how to do that. And I think this, for both April and I, in different ways, immersing yourself or for us, immersing ourselves in environments with other sex-positive people or sexually open people or just open people who are open to nudity or talking about sex or talking about vulnerability in relationships, not just sunshine and rainbows and shit-talking.
00:36:27
Speaker
We're not just the grit dirty, I don't consider it dirty, but the stuff that you could be like, oh wow, that's taboo. It's not just getting down in the depths. This is part of the practice. If you want to practice it is to immerse yourself in these worlds, whether it's the podcast you're listening to, the books that you're reading.
00:36:49
Speaker
to the therapist you're working with, to the friends that you have. And so for me, you know, in my twenties, not feeling comfortable just being naked around people other than like a sexual partner. And I don't even know if I felt comfortable there being around other naked people and like, Oh, this is really, really scary. You know, within a couple of months.
00:37:05
Speaker
I discovered that I was really comfortable. And same thing with sex, certain aspects of my sexual beings, or like the word pussy. April and I say, pussy, pussy, pussy, left and right. 10 years ago, we did not do that so comfortably. 20 years ago, we certainly didn't. But we've been immersed in it through our education, through the communities that we're hanging out with, and we practiced it. And so it makes us much more open. So I'm not saying that everyone has to do that. April's mom doesn't have to do that.
00:37:29
Speaker
But if you want to do that, that is what we've done in our various ways to become more open and comfortable and it's just what we choose and it's really powerful. I feel it also has helped me working in the sex toy industry because I think of the body as not just my body but people's bodies as these pleasure, they're almost like pleasure worlds. They're worlds of pleasure and everyone's different and it's fascinating to me
00:37:54
Speaker
And I love talking to people about what their bodies can do. And I think taking this angle, and that's what I've been told when I used to do a lot of product trainings all over the world for sex toys. People were like, I feel like I'm shopping at Sephora, in which I don't know if you have Sephora, it's like a makeup and cosmetics department store. Because I talk about the beauty that is in pleasure and what toys can do.
00:38:21
Speaker
And that kind of carried over into our podcasting world. It hasn't been easy, though, for me to just shamelessly talk about my life. And it still isn't. Sometimes I wait where I need to get comfortable enough to share certain aspects of myself. It took 120 episodes were able to out her an STI that she's had since she was a teenager.
00:38:41
Speaker
And and that was so powerful which was not planned by the way on air and she and I already knew about it But she outed I was like that's so powerful but but good for you in your own time right that makes sense like you take your time when you feel comfortable and safe in the right environments to start sharing and when you do and
00:38:58
Speaker
The response that we got from that by the people were so that thank you so much I like I me too and I'm so happy to hear that I'm not broken and I I want it like suicide like about because they got an STI diagnosis and that helped them feel more normal and not broke that's that and that's the power of Not only the podcast but about actually speaking to when you have a shame ally that is or someone that you trust Speaking about your trauma. It's not just
00:39:26
Speaker
I'm not just going on the street talking to the person at the grocery store about my SDI status, right? I'm not just trying to get a prescription. Right, yeah. Or no, I'm talking about like the deli, the deli worker, like, hey, you want turkey with that? Yeah, and also I have a steed. I need to feel safe. And maybe there are millions of people listening. But I feel like that, because it's been helpful and because it has been healing for me to talk about the shame that I
00:39:55
Speaker
war and that I still sometimes still comes up. I think that is healing me on its own, especially since I know that other people feel that they've benefited from the work that we've both done and that you're doing too, Dr. Lisa. Yeah, just openly talking about it just normalizes things, doesn't it? And then reduces that isolation. Because yeah, certainly in, you know, this is why I find sex such a fascinating topic that
00:40:23
Speaker
you know, my perspective is everyone does everything. Because I think, like, being a medic, I've literally seen it all. There's literally nothing anyone could ever say where I'd think, God, I've never heard that. How absolutely shocking. And everyone does everything. That's my kind of stance, I guess. But then, like, on the street, I think, why don't people talk about this when they're all interested? You know, it is like if your mum gave that book to the whole church.
Reducing Stigma through Open Conversations
00:40:51
Speaker
I'm sure if it was like magically
00:40:53
Speaker
on their bedside that no one knew. They would probably read it and go, this was so helpful. I'm tempted just to gift them anonymously to be like, hey, mom, this box just showed up. No one has to know that I'm your daughter. Oops, here you go. You have a different last name. Yeah, we have a different last name. Yeah, much. I think that's a great idea. I'm going to take that.
00:41:19
Speaker
Put it in the donation plate. It'd be brilliant. Oh, there you go. That's a decent change. Looks like I'm gonna have to have a trip to see my mom. Be like, oh, mom, I've got this pups and pups for you. So when it comes to women and women having their permission to enjoy pleasure and explore pleasure, what's one thing you wish women knew about sexual pleasure?
00:41:45
Speaker
Well, this is one of the rapid fire questions we got at one point. But it was written in a different way. It was like, what would you wish you knew when you were younger? And so as a woman, but when I was a girl, I wish that I, because I'd received comprehensive sex education. So, you know, talking about STIs, STDs, pregnancy, all the things, but nothing about like the actual pleasure, like how to have an orgasm, how to masturbate any of those pieces, like accident was a part of it, etc. But
00:42:11
Speaker
How does anyone get that in their sexual education? In the Netherlands, they do. Yeah, there's certain places where that, but it's rare, right? It's not the common conversation. And I think that because we still live in a time where it's very penis centric and penis pleasure centric, and I love penis. So if you have a penis, I love you. But what I'm saying is that a lot of our understanding around pleasure is very geared towards penis pleasure first.
00:42:39
Speaker
And so I think that I would love women and young women or girls to know that their pleasure is not only equal to anyone that they're being intimate with, meaning the level of importance of them receiving or having pleasure, but if you're having sex with someone and you're the one being penetrated, so that's a vulva owner,
00:43:00
Speaker
your pleasure might actually be more important to receive initially. That's why there's the book called She Comes First out there because your body takes longer to relax, to open up, to receive something inside of it. Or if you're having anal sex, same thing and everyone has an ass.
00:43:17
Speaker
So I think that that's really important. So not only to stand for your pleasure being equally important, but also your body as a vulva owning person might take longer than the people you're being intimate with because it needs more time to open up and receive and relax. And I wish I knew that when I was younger because I had a lot of compliant sex that did not feel good. Yeah. I think compliant sex is such a common thing.
00:43:42
Speaker
in in all relationships and you know often and with the clients I work with in long-term relationships compliance sex just becomes normal and I often say what do you think about compliance sex and they've never heard of it before but they're just like oh well
00:43:57
Speaker
just got to get through it because I've got to hide other things to think about. Absolutely, like sex is a chore, sex is a job, right? That's when you take the, if you take the, that's almost taking the pleasure out of it, where it's something you have to do, like a blow job, or could it be some fun oral play? Blow time! Blow time! Even though they're not really blowing.
00:44:20
Speaker
What I wanted to share, it's not as relevant to me because I think Amy covered a lot of what I would want my younger self to know, but I think that if it came down to something that I'd want to share with the world, if I was my younger self and in my power, I'd want, if there were penis owners, dudes out there, men that are
00:44:41
Speaker
they like vulvas or they want to play with vulvas. They care about having sex with a woman, let's say, okay, you're a dude. I think, think about the orgasm gap and what that entails because a lot of times there's all of this, this penis, penis centric society and culture that we've, a lot of the West has grown up with the, and that, that is, I know that I was born in 1982. I know that definitely the baby boomers and
00:45:11
Speaker
Even millennials to the Gen Zers are still in that penis centric societal mode. But if penis owners could understand, if you want to hook up with a vulva owner, then understand how the clitoris works.
00:45:28
Speaker
understand that it's not just about your cock is hard and you're ready to penetrate and she should take it or they should take it but like it's about the pleasure that could be ensued between you both so just not being so involved with your own member that's between your legs and it does come it comes down to learning about
00:45:56
Speaker
how, how to pleasure a pussy. Yes. How to pleasure a cock too. But in terms of when I was younger, I did a lot, the compliant sex piece, huge, huge. At least every woman I know, every woman. And I know men who have too, but I think it's more common for women as like, you know, the caretaker thing is, is very much embedded in us. And there's some really beautiful things in that we're like, you know, a lot of people are mothers that make sense. Uh, but when it comes to sex, like we want to be taken care of too. It goes both ways.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yeah. And then the sex gets so great after you figure out how much foreplay is needed for the blood flow. And sometimes that can be its own event. No penetration needed. Thank you. Yeah. But I think that's why it's so important for us to empower women to go
00:46:40
Speaker
You need to have this power over your own pleasure and take the lead and own it. You deserve it and you're worthy of it and you can totally have it on top of your busy life and your family and your work.
00:46:56
Speaker
all the other things on your plate. But this is actually a great antidote for dealing with all your stress. But it doesn't always have to be the woman's job. If you are a heterosexual human, it's like, dude, show up. Get yourself under wraps and understand that it's not always our job to teach you everything. You have to learn, too. Yeah. I think this is a problem with widespread porn availability, because we don't do much
00:47:21
Speaker
sexual education in pleasure and what it's actually all about. It's not just about procreating all the time. Then, you know, where do you go and learn as a teenager? Well, porn is often your only option, you know, as it stands now, unless they are
00:47:37
Speaker
educated or signposted to podcasts like yours or your book, where they certainly were able to learn more worthy skills, I would suggest. So as soon as my little boy, I mean, he's only seven now, but as soon as he turns about 15, 16, I'd be like, read this first.
00:47:54
Speaker
Let's go on the dark internet. I tell my nephew, I'm like, Hey, cause he's, he's only 12. So I'm not getting super deep in there, but I'm like, cause you know, he's sometimes he's like grabbed my boob or something. When we've been like, we were like, um, I don't know, playing basketball and you just like went up and I was like, Hey, my body's my body. You need to learn that.
00:48:13
Speaker
Anything that doesn't belong to you, you need to ask permission, and you can't just grab somebody's body. And he's like, oh. I'm like, how is that new? But it's so it's so. Brand new information as an auntie will agree. Yeah, I haven't talked to him about. I'll just get in a book in a year or two. It's coming. I'm like, you can't just grab people's body. I hope you don't do that at school. So. But yes, side note. Yeah, you have a little boy or a little girl that that's a whole different
00:48:42
Speaker
a different world that I'm like, I don't have any children, but I'm like, I don't know when the right time is to talk to the kids about sex. I guess as soon as you think that they might be exploring on the internet, you think there's a danger of them finding information.
00:48:58
Speaker
that you'd rather share yourself first. Like preventative measure too. Like you're like, okay, they might start to be dabbling in this, whether it's just on the internet or actually like, you know, having the makeup parties or whatever kids do these days, spend the bottle. That's a great time. Not a parent over here either. But like, I know that when I was doing those things, that's when I needed the most information. It wasn't later.
00:49:18
Speaker
It's like early on, actually. And there's actually like some studies suggest that even fetuses inside the pregnant body do like play with themselves, essentially. So I was masturbating at five, I found my mom's comic book at six. And I was like, trying to act that out and watching. Yes, I was with my bear.
00:49:39
Speaker
And when my mom was at home and I would, if I had a cell phone back then in the 80s, whoo, look, I don't know what the hell I would have done. Yeah. Right, I know our session is coming to an end soon, but given the fact that both of you work in the sex toy industry, I'm really interested to know what your thoughts are on
00:50:01
Speaker
the sex toys of the future and artificial intelligence and the meta universe like do you have any thoughts or have you spoken to anyone like I'm really interested in like what are the sex robots of the future and are they coming to get us now they're gonna be consensual enthusiastically consensual
00:50:22
Speaker
I think it'll take a little. Who is programming these? You know, Hot Octopus has this product called the Solo and it's the interactive version and it's chipped. So it has this Bluetooth technology. So you can actually, if another person like a Volvo owner has this toy, you could feel mimic. So on your penis, if you have a penis and the Volvo owner has this other key root toy, you could mimic what the person's doing. It also connects to
00:50:51
Speaker
all of this content so like porn where you can feel what the what the porn star is doing and then it has cam models where you could you could tip your cam model with this toy and this is my initiation into this world that is very much deeper than
00:51:09
Speaker
than what I've ever known, which is a toy myself. But I think that sex tech is, I think it's great because it gives people the opportunity to perhaps explore non-monogamy in a way that isn't outside of their home. So they could, I'm having sex with a person online and granted,
00:51:31
Speaker
Um, whatever your, your boundaries are with your partner that might be considered cheating to some partners, but it is a way to explore more safely, um, than going out and just finding a random person or a sex worker that perhaps like, you know, sex workers, we love. Yes. But sometimes people could get really triggered. So I think in terms of sex tech where it is right now, um, robots are not, I mean, the,
00:51:54
Speaker
the dolls that you could actually buy now, $12,000, there's really nice ones that are very advanced. I think that's great for people if they want another way to explore the body. I think it's gonna be like big screen TVs where remember back in the day when the big screen TV was like $20,000 and like if someone had it, it was like, oh my God, the big screen TV.
00:52:21
Speaker
And now a big screen TV is like $200. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but it's cheap. It's 2,100 bucks. Well, okay, but it depends on the size, the TV. But now let's say flat screen TVs, right? Like the technology gets better, or phones, cell phones, right? It used to be this big thing and it gets smaller and smaller, although it got smaller and now they're bigger. But anyways, they get more intelligent and I think that we're still pretty far away
00:52:45
Speaker
from the robots that other than the tech April segment is fucking awesome. And I wanted to add too, it's not just my non monogamy. If you don't have access to sex with other people, you can have sex with other people virtually. And it's a lot safer than in person because you don't get the STIs and pregnancies and things.
00:53:01
Speaker
But I think that we are far away from the AI and the robots being like what we envision it being at some point, but I think we probably will get there. And my only fear about that is just going hand in hand with text messaging and TikTok culture. It's disconnecting people from connecting with people more and more. So I think it's some really great things because I want people to have access to sexual pleasure. And I think that if we are relying on that and we forget how to connect with other people, then that is problematic. So we have a ways to go.
00:53:31
Speaker
VR is coming first, too, because VR tech, so having an oculus, a lens, and then that is going to be before these really advanced robots that people are thinking of. And I've been watching a lot of the new films out about AI tech.
00:53:50
Speaker
And it's really intriguing because remember when Back to the Future was out and I'm dating myself, I don't care. Remember, and some of the things when they fast forwarded to the 2000s that have actually come true. Yeah, it's actually real. Yeah. I might as well hoverboard thing, but yeah. Totally. But you can get one. Yes. But I think about the films that I'm watching now.
00:54:11
Speaker
And like in 2065, if there will be robots that can clean your home, that are intelligent, and of course people are going to use them for sex. I mean, come on, humans are, as you mentioned, and Dr. Lisa,
00:54:32
Speaker
They do all the things, humans. Would I have sex with a robot? I don't know. Is consent involved in that? I don't know. We could do a whole podcast on that. I don't have the answer to that, but I was like, ooh, making your robot service to you sexually. That bear didn't have consent and I totally used to hump that one. That bear was an object that didn't move.
00:54:52
Speaker
So I'm excited for the sex tech. I'm excited to see what will become of where the advancements in technology, especially in the world of pleasure. I don't know how long it's going to take, but it will be exciting and expensive. So that's one thing.
00:55:13
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really interested in the sex tech world, because I think at least it gives an opportunity to, you know, the people who work in sex tech, they're going to take a lot of time to really understand what works and what works in in different individuals to make it really successful. So it's going to be an opportunity to actually explore and research more sex in different human populations.
00:55:35
Speaker
So yeah, we'll see. We'll see what the robots and the AIs and the robotics come. Gathering data. It's just going to gather more data, which we can use however we choose. What a robot record program. Call me dirty, slutty little girl. Oh, that's possible. I could get you one of those by evening, okay? Not kidding, kidding, not kidding.
00:55:57
Speaker
So to end, can you both share one tip, one sex tip? What's your go-to one sex tip? I mean, your friends must ask you that all the time. You're both sex birds. All right, so April already said it earlier, but I'm taking it, and it's probably what she was going to say as well. But I'm going to use this one as our tagline, actually, I'm a sex, and this doesn't apply to all sex, but it's go slower than slow and slower than that. There's a reason why we say slower than that, because a lot of people think what their version slow is isn't that slow.
00:56:23
Speaker
So if you've never experimented with slower than slow and then slower than what you thought slow was, try that. And this is especially helpful for new partners when you're touching new bodies, or if you've been in that person for 10 years and you're just touching their body for the first five seconds, 10 seconds, 20 minutes, whatever, instead of going fast and hard right away, which is what porn shows us. So slowing down helps the body to warm up, to loosen up, for all the sensory or parts of ourselves to come online. So experiment with that. And then fast and hard serves a time and place, but that is for later.
00:56:53
Speaker
I love it, love it. And I will say that we touched on this during the interview, but your pleasure starts with you. Your partner or partners are not mind readers. Please know that you are in charge of your own pleasure. And that can happen in unfold in lots of different ways, but you are in charge of what you like and what you don't like.
00:57:19
Speaker
You can create boundaries and never be afraid to say no or pause and your pleasure is always evolving. So you're not broken, you're normal and you can have the sex life that you completely dream of and badass sex all the time. If you want.
00:57:37
Speaker
And mine would be lubrication. Oh, yeah. Thank you for saying that. Absolutely. Not just some shit that they sell on a high street that is going to give you all sorts of burning and infections. Don't use cooking oil, please don't. Save that for the kitchen. I like coconut oil. I mean, yeah, but there's way better lubes out there that can last a lot more. Can oil? Just kidding. Oh, my God, no. So where can people find you and let everyone know where they can
00:58:06
Speaker
download your book or buy your book in hard copy. Well, our book is available. So it will come out in the UK in January 2024, actually. I believe in Audible. It's available now. And the hardcover is available anywhere books are sold. If you're in the United States or Canada, it'll be out in Australia in also January 2024. And you can find us in the book if you just want a quick link at shamelesssex.com. If you want to follow us on any social hit, I always go social handles.
00:58:35
Speaker
Show from Sean Connery. If you want to go, Sean Connery, which I love, James Bond, you can find us at Shameless Sex Podcast. And we are pretty active on social media. And we do lots of contests. And the UK, Wales, where you're offered to participate in our contests, too. We can ship you things if you win. And we absolutely love being on your show, Dr. Lisa. Thank you so much for having us.
00:59:05
Speaker
Thank you for taking the time. Yeah, we appreciate you and have fun with chapter seven and chapter eight of the book. We hope you enjoy. I will. I will. I'll be listening to the spicy chapters just before I go into a full surgery tomorrow morning. So tomorrow, if any patients come with any kind of gynecological problem, I'll be straight there with
00:59:29
Speaker
you should look at this book brilliant well thank you so much it's been fascinating talking to you and well you're always fascinating to listen to so i definitely recommend both the book and the podcast so definitely check that out but yeah thank you so much and enjoy the rest of your day