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S2 Ep52: The M Rated Episode
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IT'S A SECRET TO EVERYBODY.
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Transcript
Introduction and 'Soap Zone'
00:00:31
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soap Zone. My name is Jake. I'm joined by my co-host, as always, Dave. How's it going, man, Dave?
00:00:38
Speaker
It's been a bit of a day. Yeah, do you feel like we need more light in this room or no? It's pretty dark. It's pretty dark. Just like this episode. I Mean there would be parts there a little bit dark I guess but overall I don't think It's more like mature content and then the darkness so if anything if the episode was really dark the rating could be more towards kids because they wouldn't be able to see what's happening like
00:01:06
Speaker
There's no explicit nudity if you're staring at a black screen. What if it's black nudity?
Mature Themes in Games
00:01:14
Speaker
Anyways in this episode, we're gonna be talking about some of the more mature topics in games and some of the controversies they've created. I'm sure everybody's had their favorite IP torn apart by Jack Thompson or somebody else that absolutely hates games.
00:01:35
Speaker
Wouldn't say they they hate games, but they see something in game shit Like usually one thing will kind of get nitpicked and then it'll get band wagons. Yeah
00:01:50
Speaker
That's actually fair, and that applies more beyond even mature themes in games. But we're going to talk in particular about some of the more mature games through the years, and we're going to try to justify the fact that every podcast has been marked explicit.
00:02:06
Speaker
It's all a lead up to this. It's really because I swear a lot. It's the entire reason, actually. But as an opening and siding incident, something we looked into that I remembered personally was I've been a big fan of Mass Effect for all three of the games.
00:02:26
Speaker
And at one point, Fox News came out and said that the game had full digital nudity. And the head title was Sex Box, which is, you know, we've all said it. Yeah. Somebody got paid an extra $5 bonus for that clip. They like tossed him an extra meal ration or something at the Fox studios.
00:02:50
Speaker
And essentially they had a correspondence back and forth where a woman claimed that Cooper Lawrence claimed that they don't show women for being valued or anything other than their sexuality. And it's a man in this game deciding how many women he wants to be with.
00:03:08
Speaker
And Jeff Knightley who's he was on a g4. Mm-hmm. He was also like spicy games journalist or yes. Okay. Mm-hmm He was a spike music Awards if you remember that clip where he talked about Kojima not being there to receive his award. That was that guy. Oh, yeah. Yep. Okay, but he said oh
00:03:28
Speaker
I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions. All right, that's completely incorrect. First of all, you can play as a man or woman in the game. Cooper, have you played Mass Effect? She laughed dismissively and said no. And then he just goes on this full disapproval of her claims and talks about how there's like two minutes of like the world's most PG rated sex scene followed by maybe PG-13, maybe PG-13.
00:03:54
Speaker
Yeah, followed by like 30 hours of
Personal Stories with Mass Effect
00:03:56
Speaker
gameplay. So it was hilarious that this was a thing for me. Um, and also terrifying because I enjoyed the series. I didn't want my parents to see Fox news. I feel like you can never pick up a mass effects game. So let's put some context first. How old were you when this game came out around? I probably would have been like 14, 13, something like that.
00:04:20
Speaker
Okay, so you're technically still at an impressionable age somewhat.
00:04:26
Speaker
Do you think it negatively affected you in any way that there was a sex scene in the game? Yeah, I don't I don't think so. I mean, I was like a juvenile boy. So I'm sure that I attempted to get the sex scene. But what was funny is I actually remember I had a family kind of living room sort of computer area. But I miss time this like terribly. If anything, I should have been like, oh, wait until to play this game and this particular scene until like
00:04:53
Speaker
You know, late at night, whatever, no one else is up. And then I could've gotten that sweet side boob in the video. But instead, like, everyone was around. So, scene comes on, and I'm like, aw, mash escape, skip cut scene. I didn't even see it. I don't think I saw it until, like, YouTube on years later, like, just by happenstance, like a Mass Effect compilation.
00:05:19
Speaker
So I don't think it massively infected my development and growth as a human being. You don't think it massively affected you? I was looking at me. It was biting me. There's a minor effect. But I mean, it was massively blown out of proportion. Almost no actual
00:05:40
Speaker
uh... sexual content there and it was a tiny amount of content I always want to bring things back to like the holistic view right because I know before we were talking about like content in video games and like what makes a good story and one thing I hate is when they'll put something in games for the sake of it right like oh these two characters bang and you're like why? like there's not a good reason yeah it's been fifteen minutes since someone banged or something
Violence vs. Sex in Games
00:06:10
Speaker
But correct me if I wrong because I haven't played Mass Effect similar to this Cooper Lawrence. Right. But I am semi familiar with it. But correct me if I wrong but like you can court different people throughout the game. Yes. Based on like your actions your interactions with them right.
00:06:27
Speaker
There wasn't like a tremendously large pool of characters you could like develop a relationship with and Mass Effect 1, but I think there was like two or three options for men and two or three options for women. And one of them is this alien they're talking about, the Asari, who doesn't care whether you're a man or a woman.
00:06:48
Speaker
It got blown up for being sexual and bad for kids, but the same way it's a normalized homosexuality. You would think so. If any of them had done their homework and realized you could play as a female character, that's what they would have been outraged about. But they all thought it was like a male sex fantasy simulator. So they missed that entirely. So, but at least in Mass Effect 1, is it just straight interactions?
00:07:16
Speaker
No, it's a, um, well, it depends because it's the alien race and it is a female alien race. Okay. So in that case, if you're playing fem Shep, um, you could have a relationship with the female Asari, um, Liara is your name. And that would be the closest thing. Well, the closest thing, the first game I think has to a lesbian interaction.
00:07:42
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. They, that would have, I mean, that a hundred percent would have set them off if they knew that that was a possibility in the game would have been like for men, it's like a sex fantasy. And at the same time, it's like teaching our kids that homosexuality is okay. And what have been freaking hilarious, actually.
00:08:03
Speaker
But it doesn't because I wasn't really a part of this whole thing. It doesn't strike me at least now as anything that crazy because I played games with sexuality and it's not ever over the top. Yeah. And it's not for like sexual gratification.
00:08:20
Speaker
Like I played some of Witcher 3 where you have sex with these ladies you come across because that's Geralt's character. He gets wooed by these powerful women to do things for them. Yeah. And he's just kind of going about his business. Yeah. And like it's, it's part of the world and I don't think it's inappropriate or sexist. It kind of gives the world a little more flourish.
00:08:48
Speaker
yeah i think you played you played like witcher wild hunt right so i believe so yes like witcher one was a bit more um i don't know if like full chauvinistic but it definitely had more of uh hey i just saved you like we should probably bang right like that's how this arrangement goes which you know is not progressing anyone's worldview you know really sure
00:09:13
Speaker
And you literally collected cards in that game after you have like, you get like nudie cards, yeah, essentially. Which was something, I guess. And then later games, they treated it a little bit more maturely. Although I think Witcher 2 opened with Triss Merigold, which is one of the sources being nude. It was like the opening scene of the game. So they got that right out.
00:09:40
Speaker
like we gotta meet our quota uh it's it's pretty funny though and i mean like that's a that's a european made game so they see that completely different cd project red is based in um iceland poland poland it's poland it's poland you should know that and i should know that i did i obviously said that just to uh make some of our viewers our listeners doubt for a moment but
00:10:04
Speaker
I was actually thinking of CCP as the Icelandic based company. But what do they make? Eve Online. And they used to own the IP for World of Darkness. But haven't played those. Yeah, they sold off to Paradox and eventually I'll talk about the game that they're making. But that's not this one.
00:10:23
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, like there's a, there's a huge range, but they, what I think happened for this controversy is someone was like, I played this game and you can have sex. And then like, they're like, hold up. Who can you have sex with? I was like, it's an alien and like, stop the presses. We're still making a story about this now. And the person in the background was just like, it's like a tiny little thing. It's like no part of the game at all. And they're like, shut up. I don't care about that. That's not what we're reporting. Yeah.
00:10:50
Speaker
I feel like a lot of things, like I said, just kind of getting it picked and then bandwagon. Yeah. And like certain things, I think they're like good arguments can be made for, um, let's say if I had kids and they were like 12, 13 around that age, I wouldn't want them watching sex.
00:11:07
Speaker
in anything. But I think that's why we have now a rating system to say like, hey, these things are the same way we have for movies. It's like, hey, this is probably a little bit too much for somebody of this age. But then post that you can opt into whatever you want, I feel.
00:11:29
Speaker
Like I feel like it's, it's a little hard to find the line specifically for sex. Like when kids are okay, seeing it like when, and at the same time, games are never, it's not, it's never really easy to be like, this is a game with an extreme amount of sexual content or a lot of it, like the Witcher where they're just like full nudity. Why not? Might as well. Yeah. Um, although most of the it's a front top, like female nudity, that's the reason they don't have an AO rating in the U S.
00:11:58
Speaker
Hey-oh. Hey-oh. That seems natural, but I had it written down in the notes and like, hey, oh, oh, we have to make a joke about this. It's natural because we actually didn't get that far in the notes yet, so you're good. It's true. But there's other games like Suggestive Themes is like, I think, the opening
Historical Game Controversies
00:12:17
Speaker
ESRB rating for a game that
00:12:20
Speaker
It's related under that S under the under the S in the content for the game. But it could literally just be like, oh, man, she's hot or something like that. You know, like a remark like that. You're like, oh, yes, this person is sexually attracted to the other person. Yes. Or it's like this person is trying to be enticing or something like that. Seductive suggested themes.
00:12:43
Speaker
Oh when they go with the full hey boys. Yeah. I got you So there's like there's a huge range and You know not everybody goes GTA for ballot of gay Tony and has full frontal male nudity Some games are just yeah, there's some boobs usually on a demon or like a succubus or something and
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's it shouldn't be on an incubus so much. Whoa, Dave, you're discriminating against incubus. Incubide. I don't know. It's an actual vehicle. It's the incubus. Again, my bad.
00:13:24
Speaker
But yeah, no, that's fair. It's something you have to make your own. I mean, we have this idea in particular in the U.S. I think it's relatively universal that parents should pick the maturity level of content for their children unless they're explicitly, you know,
00:13:44
Speaker
For some reason like mentally scarring them in some way. Yeah like you don't just show your kids like Real life death race like, you know amateur made things where people are actually dying that would mess them up a little bit, right? Yeah, it's But you get to choose maybe they maybe let them play Starcraft
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah. I haven't had kids. I don't honestly plan to have kids. I can't really say this. I was like, take this into the green assault. But I feel that I would be heavily scrutinized, especially if it was like a first kid. Yeah. And it's like your pilot go at it. Right. I'd want to shelter them from as much as possible. Early access, kid. Backer awards.
00:14:37
Speaker
But I feel like at a point, like once they reach teenage years, they're definitely going to be experiencing some things through media, games, their friends. Like you can't completely shelter person or keep them away without child protective services being like, I haven't seen that kid in a while basement, right?
00:14:57
Speaker
But I feel like a little bit of exposure is good. It just shouldn't be over the top. I think you want to normalize some of those things. Like, hey, sexuality is fine. It's not innately bad in the same way.
00:15:14
Speaker
Sometimes violence is necessary or like it's a part of the world that we live in and like certain regards Rather than saying putting everything in a box and saying like this is the worst. Don't touch it. Yeah and like and Like sex sexuality gets put in that box a lot more in the US than violence does
00:15:33
Speaker
Yeah. Cause we talk about guns all the fucking time. Like, um, for my, my upbringing, like things with sexual content, immediately disqualified. Yeah. Things with violence, justifiable. And that was, that was much, that was, there was a chance of the argument there. And there's usually a reason for violence and a lot of things like.
00:15:59
Speaker
Let's say in a movie, you got to kill the bad guy. Right. Or like a Western, that's a good example, right? It's not over the top violence. Usually they get shot, and then they bleed out over two seconds, or they have a line, and then they're dead. Right. Like fighting video games, that's the point. Right. And if you're talking about violence and fighting video games, there's the iconic Mortal Kombat. Fatality.
00:16:28
Speaker
Sub-Zero wins. Flawless victory. Which was basically the introduction to ultra-violence to a lot of people in video games. Yes. And ESRB didn't exist when Mortal Kombat came out, which is probably for the best.
00:16:46
Speaker
Because that game was hecka violent. I actually remember One of my first interactions with Mortal Kombat wasn't even the game. Mm-hmm. It was in a Walmart when I was but a wee lad I mean, that's why I went to Walmart still yeah, right and I was looking at like a game in former magazine or something like that from like a distance. I was like, oh
00:17:07
Speaker
What is that and it was um looks a little bit closer and it was sub-zero Holding up a skull with a spine attached to it. Yeah that he had torn from a person presumably and I was like I am scarred I'm in danger
00:17:27
Speaker
It just, on a deep level, I was not ready to see that kind of gruesome reality at a young age. But Mortal Kombat was just like, eh, okay, we're gonna throw the game out there. It was really hecka violent.
00:17:45
Speaker
So as Mortal Kombat's progress, do you find yourself feeling the same way or it's kind of over the top gruesome? I I'll be honest, I kind of do. I mean, we talked about this just a little bit in advance, so I know I spoilers. Yeah, yeah. Don't show them behind the curtains. And sometimes like I just watch clips of games on YouTube because, you know, I'm an adult. I have a job. I don't have time to play games, actually. Spoilers also behind the curtains.
00:18:16
Speaker
And so I don't know particularly why I watch it, maybe just a morbid curiosity, but a fatality compilation. Yup. And they're really, really violent in some of the modern Mortal Kombat games.
00:18:33
Speaker
Like it's no longer knocked the opponent off of the map and they landed on a spike and were impaled and died. It's like carved them into like individually sliced sections and then their organs fall out on the floor. And then the camera just stays on them for a couple seconds before the fatality comes up. It's like uncomfortable.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely does get a little bit outside of my comfort zone. Like, I feel, over time, I've definitely gotten better at separating or putting anything video game in its own box where I'm like, this is not real life. Therefore, like, it doesn't affect me in that way. Yeah. Like, I would never watch a video of somebody actually being cut in half and their organs falling out. Right. Because that sounds
00:19:26
Speaker
purely horrid and scarring and terrifying and evil. But in a video game context, I'm like, oh, that guy got totally owned. Right. Yeah. So I appreciate like the effort put into it and like the animation. Hmm. There's a lot. There's a lot of effort put into the gore in modern Mortal Kombat games.
00:19:49
Speaker
They have those like zoom in cracking and like slicing moves. The like concussion hits. Bone breakers. Bone breakers. Yeah. If you like hit an opponent. I think hit an opponent while they were trying to hit you or something like that or some sort of retaliation.
00:20:04
Speaker
It was like a meter build up type thing, at least per MKX. Yeah. I know they have like some specials and things they can do too that are usually pretty gruesome, but the fatalities are where people die. Although like a lot of those meter moves looked like they should be fatalities also.
00:20:22
Speaker
Oh, you mean where somebody gets stabbed once? I'm like, that person's dead. You, like, fire a harpoon through their head. It just, like, pierces and entry. Like, oh, yeah, pull that out. They're like, no, I'm good to keep fighting. Maybe not. It's all that determination, apparently. Yeah, they are well held together by the mouse trying to get the cheese.
00:20:44
Speaker
One thing I like about Mortal Kombat, though, at least I've been watching a lot of the updates and like trailers and fatality combinations for 11. Yeah, they just called it 11. Yeah, we're coming 11. And for me, I'm just curious because I don't actively play a lot of fighters, but the universe fascinates me.
00:21:05
Speaker
So I'm like, oh, what cool character design do they do? How does it fit into the meta? And then along with that, each character is very stylized, personalized. And part of that is in their flourish for fatalities. Like Cassie Cage is going to have something wildly different from Baraka.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, Cassie I saw one of her fatalities for I think it was MKX and It was very very gruesome and ended with a person's head like she was just holding up their head. She takes a selfie Yeah next to it and by comparison 11 was not like as gruesome one of her fatalities with that is she like shoots a person into the air with her guns literally elevating them into the sky until they're chopped up by a helicopter and
00:21:51
Speaker
It doesn't make a lot of sense.
00:21:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's kind of over the top in a way where I think you can kind of almost separate as like cartoony. Yeah, it actually takes a little bit away from the the impact of the violence. Yeah. If it's if it's got that absurdist meant, you know, it's it's like you can't shoot someone into the air with guns by firing really fast.
Nintendo's Family-Friendly vs. Mature Themes
00:22:16
Speaker
Have you tried? Yeah, I haven't tried. I haven't tried. It's like and if someone could pull that off, maybe it should be Aaron Black.
00:22:24
Speaker
You know, maybe it should be Aaron Black. All I'm saying, Aaron Black's pretty top tier. He's so freaking good. Like some of the strings that I've seen are like hit, hit, gun, hit, hit, gun. Yeah. Throws the pool of acid, does the grab where they're on the ground and he walks up and then steps on their head a couple of times. Meanwhile, the acid's still proccing. Yeah. Oh, I got crazy damage. He's apparently he's apparently pretty top tier.
00:22:50
Speaker
But I believe it. McCree always a great character. There is a there is actually a quote I looked up for this, which I thought was great. One for the quote and two for who said it. It was in the past, some very violent and offensive games have reached the mark. And of course, I'm speaking about Mortal Kombat and Night Trap, which is like another kind of FMV sort of choose your own adventure game.
00:23:15
Speaker
But that was said by Nintendo of America, Vice President Howard Lincoln, testifying on the video game controversy in 1993. That's Nintendo, President of America. It doesn't get much higher than that. It's kind of like damage control. It was 100% damage control at that point. Because people saw very uncomfortable things in these games that previously would have just been like in smut films.
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah, I I want to say night traps definitely more of an example of that because It was a smart film basically, right? It had a lot of
00:24:00
Speaker
women dressed inappropriately for like the scene that they were setting. Right. Where like there's like some terrorists were like invading the house and you have to choose specific things and then like different cutscenes would play like, oh, this would flip a door in the house, like a secret door. Right. One of those rotating bookcases or something. Um, but yeah, it got a little,
00:24:25
Speaker
a little more sexually to be and also like a little more predatory violence in a way. Yeah. Compared to like moral combat, which was a fighting game and like violent, I expect in that context. Yeah. But I also think to a degree, Nintendo has never really had anything like that. They've not really ever had mature themes in their games because they've always marked themselves as like the family friendly company where it's, it's easy to play, play with your friends. We have a group of people.
00:24:53
Speaker
I'll have you know, Dave, Twilight Princess was rated T-14. Okay. That's my counterpoint. It's not that strong. Shit, you got me. I would ask, why was it rated T-14? I think it was for more intense violence than the series was known for previously. Hmm. Yeah. Pretty sure that was it.
00:25:17
Speaker
What was your first experience with violence or sexuality in video games or drugs, I guess falls into that category. Yeah. Um, so, I mean, violence is like, it's inherent to almost all video games at this point. It's just, it's not like, you know, actual gruesome violence. It's just comic violence mischief.
00:25:40
Speaker
Yeah, like literally we had an episode on Kirby a couple weeks ago. That's probably one of my first games Yeah, but you were sucking up thing and you were devouring other living beings Yeah, how hilarious would it be if you got to the end of Kirby and it's like kill count it's like like like 250 dreamland inhabitants but massacred like newspaper style drops
00:26:05
Speaker
Wanted mass murderer Kirby last name unknown Kirby last name Kirby Kirby. That's the name of the show
00:26:17
Speaker
Kirby, Kirby, Kirby, he has to go. Oh man. But for me, one that stood out is I was at my friend Tony's house and we were playing, or I was watching him play Brubor. And there is, when the Marines die, they kind of like explode into blood, depending on
Horror Elements in Games
00:26:37
Speaker
how they're killed.
00:26:37
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Because it's convenient from a graphics standpoint. They're blood for a second. And then you just don't have to worry about like giblets or a corpse or anything like that. It saves processing like graphics power. But I saw that and was like, I feel like a little queasy. Yeah. I'm like, this makes my tummy feel bad. That sounds like I had too much blood.
00:27:06
Speaker
And eventually that kind of passed as I grew a little more desensitized to it. But the other one in that vein was Doom 3, which scared the crap out of me and made me very uncomfortable.
00:27:21
Speaker
From violence or from like horror standpoint? Kind of both. Or was there a sexual component that I missed from Doom 3? Right, yeah. It's kind of the helplessness of it bothered me. The helplessness of the people you're running into in the introduction. Kind of like when hell's breaking loose. And also just the jump scares and the
00:27:47
Speaker
General gruesomeness of the game. It's not really ready for that as a young teen That's fair what's funny though and I don't know if most people played this way, but my friend got a mod that just made it so he could like spawn Infinite I think it was spawn infinite flashlight century robots To follow him around and so he's just like running through the game and they're just killing everything It's pretty great
00:28:18
Speaker
Wait, the flashlight-centric robot does not provide light? It does, yeah. So the first release of Doom 3, you had to choose between having your light on or your gun out. The re-release later, they gave you a lapel flashlight, essentially.
00:28:37
Speaker
Where it's like your phone's on and you can see like a foot in front of you. It was like a full light. It was legit. They just removed the flashlight kind of entirely and just gave you an always on flashlight. That was mixed to the community because they were like, I mean, convenient from a gameplay standpoint, but I'm not going to get jump scared by things in the dark anymore while my gun's out and pointed right at them. So.
00:29:06
Speaker
It's interesting though, it was a departure for the series. Like, before Doom wasn't really a horror game.
00:29:13
Speaker
I don't think. No, it didn't start out that way. It was just kind of, you're killing demons. It wasn't meant to be scary as much as like action packed. Yeah. Or like the remake, Doom 2016. That's not a horror game. No. It's about killing demons. You feel so much more powerful in that than you did in Doom 3. Yeah. I think that's why people love it so much.
00:29:37
Speaker
So I feel like something we have to talk about at a point is like the violence meter, like in Doom 3 or 2016 is a better example because it's a solid fucking game. Oh, yeah. I don't think it's weird to like rip the limbs off of demons, beat them with their own limbs or anything like that.
00:29:58
Speaker
Whereas if it was a person, and let's say that they were bad people, so it's justified, I feel that that would be a much more violent and appropriate thing.
00:30:10
Speaker
That's actually, that's a good point. I think you're the, the human mind seems to make the distinction between this as a human. If you're engrossed in the game, this is a human that I'm killing versus this is a monster. And the idea that you're shooting bad guys or killing bad guys always makes it more.
00:30:30
Speaker
Okay. It makes it easier to stomach. Yeah. Like, which is why like, even in like Wolfenstein or Return to Castle Wolfenstein, any of those, you're shooting Nazis and it's just an arcade game. There's still people and I'm sure like maybe I'd be a little bit uncomfortable with that if I played it when I was young enough. Yeah. But you didn't get the impression that there's like helpless people dying for no reason.
00:30:57
Speaker
Or for me, it was, I'll be honest for the Starcraft thing. It was probably how grotesque the Zerg were. Like running over the space Marines and things like that. Um, but now it's freaking awesome. And I'm a Zerg player. Finally embraced the hive. Yeah. What came where you just talked about a second ago? I was talking. My mind just went. We'll return to castle Wolfenstein. We're talking about doom. Oh yeah. For Wolfenstein reminded me of a Nazi zombies for.
00:31:27
Speaker
I forget which Call of Duty game that was. All of the Treyarch ones basically had zombies sub mode. The main series by Infinity War. I almost forgot them. Never really had that. Well that to me is like another separation where it's like.
00:31:48
Speaker
They're not human in multiple contexts. Right. Cause the Nazis have been dehumanized for obvious reasons being like pieces of shit for like their, their atrocities. Right. But at the same time, like zombies, it's a very us be them because I'm a human. I'm alive. I don't want to be an undead. Yeah. That's actually stopped with your conversion therapy, Jim.
00:32:09
Speaker
That's actually, that's gotta be it. I think you've tapped into the core of it because like all of these games where you kill zombies, you don't feel anything killing them. It's not meant to mean anything unless that particular person was just turned into a zombie and they were previously your loved one or something like that, right? It's like you are completely desensitized to the mass slaughter of zombies because they're just zombies.
00:32:36
Speaker
I would say even in Plants vs. Zombies, I hold no remorse because they're biting my cute acorns or eating
Controversial Game Scenes
00:32:45
Speaker
my sunflowers, which somehow they got to because I fucked up. Messed up. You were playing on a tablet or something and stopped reading your presses. The game runs at a really low resolution. I played it like this year, I think, actually, the original one.
00:33:05
Speaker
It hasn't aged the best from a technical perspective, but it's not full of microtransactions like the later ones. That's the scariest thing that a game has ever had. That's gotta be its whole other thing. That's the biggest and more immoral thing you can put in your game for sure is microtransactions.
00:33:23
Speaker
But you mentioned Call of Duty and how it has that sub-zombies mode. There is a particular scene where you are not fighting zombies and you're not fighting enemy combatants in Call of Duty 2, I believe. It was the no Russian sequence. And that caused its own controversy. And I'll be honest, I felt like crap when I played it too. So let's provide some context because
00:33:50
Speaker
Outside of like me having heard about this like several years back. Yeah. I had, I've read like five lines of hype up for it. So this thing in this game, which you might not have played or heard about. I would basically, correct me if I'm wrong, you are playing somebody who has a gun. Yeah. You're in an airport and you mow down people who do not have guns. Yeah. Who are just in the airport.
00:34:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's the setting is you're infiltrating this Russian terrorist group, essentially. And you're an American and you end up in, I think it is either an international or some other airport. And in order to get in with these guys to follow through, discover the whole cell, take out the leader, whatever it was, you have to prove your loyalty, essentially. So.
00:34:43
Speaker
Elevator comes down, you guys have all your guns, you're wearing your body armor. Guy looks back to you and says, Remember, no rush. Doors open, LMG comes down, and the game gives you a choice at this point. There's a bunch of civilians. I don't think there's any kids. I think it was all men and women. But they just turn and look at you and you can just go to town mowing them all down.
00:35:10
Speaker
Or you can just walk through that and actually kill no one It doesn't impact gameplay and either way But for the player in the moment, they don't know whether that'll impact gameplay or not. Yeah Okay, maybe they do turn on you if they realize it presented like an actual choice where it's like hey, I'm gonna pick an option or is the option it's organic you start shooting a
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The guns, the guns fully down. You just have the option to aim and kill people or just walk through the airport. And in which case all of your compatriots, your other terrorist buddies are, uh, unloading on everybody anyway. So you get to see the gruesome reality of it, um, regardless, but it does take on a more impactful aspect. If you're the one pulling the trigger. Yeah.
00:36:02
Speaker
And this scene pissed people off in the international space. What's funny is there was criticism of it in the US, for sure. But a lot of criticism came from the international community where they're like, why do you guys hate sex so much? And why do you love violence so, so much? And some international copies of the game that were
00:36:27
Speaker
Sent out actually didn't have the same at all. Just completely cut it from the game and the other thing was like Sometimes this has a game has a military story and they're trying to teach you a lesson about like how bad war is and atrocities and things like that like I think was it six days the Fallujah or something like that was one of those but This this scene got leaked
00:36:56
Speaker
before modern warfare two came out. And I don't know if there's like a personal live who believes it was anyone other than Activision that did it. Like as a hate. Hey, we're the controversial one. We're the bad boy. Yeah. We have a terrorist simulator in the middle of our game, which is what some people claim to be like. This is you're setting up people to execute a terrorist attack on civilians. Um,
00:37:22
Speaker
It's dark stuff. It is a dark episode as it turns out. Do you think there's merit in those statements? It's like, I want your take on this. Did you think it was a negative thing that they put that in their game? Or do you think it was justified for a reason?
00:37:41
Speaker
I think it could have been justified. I think that their intent might, you could argue whether their intent means a lot or not. Maybe the personal experience and intent of the player means more at the end of the day. And I doubt many people played Kud 2 and they're like, I'm going to be a terrorist. That sounds dumb. Like that's not going to be your defining video game moment.
00:38:02
Speaker
Yeah, you're not like shooting people in a video game feels real good. Hmm. No, probably not but Is it too much? Is it like disrespectful to people who are victims of terrorist attacks? Is it gratuitous? Like in a game where you don't no one would have argued if they chose not to have that scene in it, you know Is there something that you're willing you're trying to tell people is there a message you're trying to invoke that would? justify
00:38:31
Speaker
kind of having this scene in your game?
00:38:35
Speaker
That's what I'm asking. Yeah, and I mean like I can answer for myself I guess and that's that's about the best I can do because if that's what I'm asking Because it's it's it's it's tough though because it's like I was really uncomfortable when I played it, right? Um, I can't remember the first time I played it if I actually walked through or if I actually shot people but I know I've had playthroughs of the game where I shot people and there's like a moment at the end where you get like a breather and I'm like I I'm not comfortable with what I just did
00:39:04
Speaker
But maybe that's actually a sign that it's good. Like maybe it's a sign that it is justifiable to put that in the game because I have played plenty of shooters where I get to the end. I was like, that was a fun experience. I'm just going to go about my life. I've played very few shooters where I get to the end and I'm like, I feel uncomfortable about the real violence I enacted upon other people. Yeah. You know,
Parental Monitoring and Game Violence
00:39:28
Speaker
that's, that's kind of a rare takeaway. Um,
00:39:33
Speaker
So for me, I think it is justifiable within that context, but I mean, don't just put it in all of your games to try to make more money. What about, what about you? Cause I know you've played Call of Duty as well. In multiplayer, love shooting people. Yeah. It's.
00:39:56
Speaker
It's the best because it comes down to like reflexes, strategy, knowing the map. It's like an e-sport in multiplayer. Yeah. It's, it's a fun, like, I'm going to try and prove that I'm better than these other people who are playing. And for them, it's the same thing. Exactly. Um, it's an EP and off. I didn't play through this game specifically, at least as far as campaigning and going through that.
00:40:27
Speaker
from hearing about it and from watching it. Probably don't think it's needed. But at the same time, I'm a fairly passive person. So there aren't a lot of things where I'm like, this is, guys, this is the worst. I'm usually just like, that's OK. Or I'm not such a huge fan of that. I think it's not polarizing for me.
00:40:53
Speaker
I think it would have been much less impactful if it would have just been people that were there and you shoot them and they die. It's more they like put effort into modeling like their animations for them running away from you. Yeah, like grouping together trying to pull their loved ones away and all this and unloading into all of that feels feels bad. So. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe they succeeded that aspect, but.
00:41:22
Speaker
It's tough. If you like, if you like games like that, if you like scenes like that one, place backups the line. It's a fun military shooter.
00:41:32
Speaker
Is that your segment or is that an offhand thing? It is a solid shooter, but it deals a lot more in the atrocities of war. I do want to ask you another question before we go back to sexual stuff because that's where I feel more comfortable. You feel comfortable in your sexuality.
00:41:57
Speaker
So I feel that we can't, I'd be remiss to not mention, uh, the Columbine shootings or any type of mass shooting where things get tied back to video games or like, Oh, these people played video games. They played violent video games. This is what caused them to do these atrocities. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:17
Speaker
And I feel that there have been studies shown throughout everything and also just common sense of just looking at the data. There is not a correlation. It's in the same way like, oh, this person who became a sociopath is reading Stephen King novels. Right. No, like it's it's a separation. You take from things what you want and it's.
00:42:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's not like a fucking manifesto. Yeah, I don't know if so. I don't actually know what the correlation would be. And I think they're probably I would I would disagree to your saying. I think there probably is a correlation, but it's definitely not causation because you take a kid who's well adjusted like his peers. And if they're well adjusted or on average, well adjusted.
00:43:04
Speaker
And they're going to play violent video games. It's fine. Whatever. That's just what kids play. And maybe some play more, maybe some play less. On average, if people have anger issues, if they had a rough upbringing, if their parents don't monitor them at all and let them play and watch whatever they want,
00:43:25
Speaker
It seems like the more troubled kids do get into more hardcore material of anything. Music, games, videos. But people make it causation instead of correlation. They're just like, hey, all that music, all those video games, all those movies, that made this kid bad. And he went and he killed all of his classmates. Realistically, my take on it is that
00:43:54
Speaker
It's much more likely, given all of the studies that have been done, that violent people prefer violence.
Social Isolation and Game Perception
00:44:02
Speaker
And it also has an amplifying effect. There was a study, I wrote a paper about this in community college way back when, non-scientific, never got published in a major journal.
00:44:13
Speaker
But the gist was, do video games have a correlation with aggression? And there is one. It's just not that big. Unless you are already an unstable or aggressive person, in which case it's significantly worse.
00:44:32
Speaker
Yeah. So like we'll play video games, we'll get salty at stuff and like you become frustrated, flustered, but it's how you deal with that emotion. Like for you and me, we might just say like, Hey, taking a breather or like, I'm probably good for tonight playing this specific game in this mode. Whereas other people might ruminate on it. They might continue to like poke at the wound and kind of like make it a loop.
00:45:02
Speaker
Yeah, they kind of roll a ball of raw emotion up until it becomes something they can't handle in a healthy way. Also, you said well adjusted earlier. Yeah.
00:45:12
Speaker
I want to get, we're not scientific by any means. No. So it takes us. We just pretend to be. We're two guys in our late twenties just hanging out, shooting the shit. Yeah. Um, and the dark drinking energy. For me, it's now just a flat Coke zero sugar. So I'm letting the new beverage in. Um, but when you say well adjusted, I think of like somebody who's integrated with society and other people.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah. Because I feel like a lot of these cases will come from people who do not fit in. They tend to be alone. And as soon as you segregate yourself, and I've even seen this in small cases where I just don't hang around a lot of people, your mind wanders. And it wanders in a way like, oh, I don't think so and so likes me. They haven't texted me back in three hours. Right. And your brain will just run off with those thoughts.
00:46:08
Speaker
So you tend to like isolate yourself and separate yourself from people. Right. And then the more you do it, the worse it becomes. Yeah. And there's like a weird type of security and being alone because like you can be her interaction. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:46:26
Speaker
You can't be rejected by anyone if you don't go out of your comfort zone. But at the same time, you're sitting there reinforcing your own darkest thoughts about yourself and other people. I don't feel like you have to be a scientist to get that. That leads to a bad place.
00:46:44
Speaker
So I mean yeah if the only thing your kid is doing is playing violent video games Listening to the most violent sounding of music including lyrics and stuff and watching smut films and they're 13 or 14
00:46:59
Speaker
like something's bad about that and you got to find a way to step in and change that if you can because Your kid may end up as a statistic and turn all these other people into statistics and nobody wants that So, I mean yeah, I think everybody who's grown up and been a teenager has Some recollection of those times where they got lost in their own head and it's just like
00:47:31
Speaker
Maybe you didn't think aggressive thoughts of other people, but you thought you cast other people in a bad light and it was entirely in your head. That's just like, oh, that person's a jerk or like Stacy shouldn't have said that about me or whatever it is. Or like Stacy's mom has got it going on, things like that.
00:47:51
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, obviously being able to deal with that in a healthy way, kind of walk out into the light of actually being able to interact with people and having a support group like makes the difference. Um, that is the mental health episode. Yes. The rated M rated M for mental health. Yep. Got them subverted expectations. As a real quick aside, is there a,
00:48:23
Speaker
An example of violence in video games, you're like, this, I really enjoy this. Oh, and an example of violence I enjoy. So I'm going to let you think, let you be pensive and I'm going to name something that you'd be like, Oh, I agree with that. Yeah. Um.
00:48:43
Speaker
For me at least. I think you might agree with some of these. Payday two, which is again shooting, but you are the bad guys as you are heisters and you're going to rob banks and murder police. Yeah. Um, hotline Miami is something you're probably sitting on. Let me just move to my second point. That's actually a good one. I hadn't thought about that. I figured you'd say either hotline Miami or Ruiner.
00:49:09
Speaker
Yeah. Ruiner. They're both very similar in the, the feel of the violence. Yeah. It's a constant. Quick pace chain kills. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's an arcade game, which is arcade violence is really all it is. I'll be honest. The first thing that popped, popped to mind, cause there are fun things like doom. I quite enjoy the glory kills and doom. Um, because I have completely removed it. It's completely in fiction. None of it feels like reality to me. And it's also demons. Yeah. And it's demons.
00:49:37
Speaker
It's it's such a separation from like They're trying to kill people as they are demons and you're trying to let the fuck over the human race, right? It's just demons being demons for you're like, but it's bad There's also got to be some points for Elder Scrolls oblivion for the adorian fan who follows you everywhere and complains about stuff
00:49:58
Speaker
there's this particular mountainside with an overlook where you're just like hey stay here and he's like here right here are you sure not over there here okay i'll stay here and just like walk back 10 feet arrow arrow arrow arrow like straight up in the sky essentially they all just follow him at the same time when he dies satisfying go
00:50:19
Speaker
But the first thing that popped mine was actually Call of Duty itself again, the nuke aftermath in Modern Warfare. And it's not for satisfaction in a revelry of violence, but it's when you die in the nuke explosion. Did you play the campaign for Modern Warfare 1?
00:50:42
Speaker
I didn't play any Call of Duty campaign as far as I know. They're talking about the multi-kill and the modern warfare. That's freaking great too. I got that once. Everybody on the server is pissed off. I like that one also. But this was a story. You're sent in as a team to disarm a nuclear device.
00:50:58
Speaker
You go through all this stuff. Long story short, it ends up going off. There's a delayed detonation essentially. They start evacuating everybody and fear that it's gonna go off. It takes down all of the helicopters around you. It takes down your helicopter. You go unconscious. You wake up. The world is this like almost Martian looking landscape of debris and red dust. And the game lets you crawl out of the helicopter.
00:51:24
Speaker
crawl around you look for like a way to regenerate health you know find somebody to survive your guy like it's really freaking struggling and then if you like fall you look like take damage you get almost nowhere your character gives up he falls down he dies
Enjoyment of Game Violence
00:51:46
Speaker
Then it zooms out to like, it's global, your next operative kind of view. And it says like, killed in action, private, whatever his name was. I'm going to call him Ramirez, but I don't know about that. And it was such an awesome moment in gaming because it was like.
00:52:01
Speaker
Oh yeah, you know how you always survive all the most unlikely circumstances? No. You're dead. And you died because no one could survive it. And this operation failed. And deal with it. Protagonist dead.
00:52:19
Speaker
So so the dose of realism and kind of like adding the weight. Yeah to it It was one of those it's there's been a couple moments in games where I'm just like I don't play Call of Duty with a controller but put down the controller and then just think about what happened Mm-hmm, and that was put down the controller or the mouse but then the mouse holding up the whole time and And think about it. And I mean like that's that's violence done, right? I would say obviously you can do it for Arcadia. Have it be fun. Nothing wrong with that
00:52:49
Speaker
I think. But if you're going to have a more realistic depiction of violence or something that really impacts people, make it mean something. Probably a less light-hearted answer than you were hoping for. But you started with Columbine.
00:53:14
Speaker
Everything's connected a little bit. Yeah. So we talked a lot about violence. I think we've expressed like our opinions in some, some vague ways about that. Do you have any other thoughts on drugs or, or, uh, sexuality in games? I don't, I don't feel like drugs have come up in games for me. Yeah. It doesn't seem to matter. Really? Yeah. Um, it's just occasionally something that's there and it's usually
00:53:41
Speaker
You have somebody who's, like, casually smoking weed or something. Yeah. Or you have somebody who's, like, Mr. Burger Pants. The drug addict. Burger Pants from, uh, Undertale. Oh. With his blood. Yeah, that guy has something. I'm 19 years old and I've already wasted my whole life. I can't go to hell in a lot of vacation days.
00:54:11
Speaker
So good. I feel like another topic we have to touch on. I did use that with a bit of a joke. Something like jiggle physics. Okay, yeah. So there's obviously sexuality in video games. Certain ones more than others. No, 100% true. Probably like one of the main cases being like Dead or Alive, Extreme Beach Volleyball.
Portrayal of Sexual Content in Games
00:54:31
Speaker
Yes.
00:54:31
Speaker
Which I have heard about, but as a good Christian obviously have not played. It sounds good as the older titles. So Dead or Alive is just like a fighter where it has people with different fighting styles. A lot of the female characters usually very attractive or might wish suggestive clothing. Right. Fanservice and stuff. Yeah. But to me, I don't care because I'm not taking anything from it and I'm not offended by it. Right. You're here for the volleyball meta.
00:55:00
Speaker
So, but like with Dead or Alive extreme beach flying, it's all like the girls in bikinis and doing like, you know how you imagine like sleepovers were when you were like 10, you're like, dude, are they just like hang out and make out and like take off their shirts? It was kind of like that from, I've seen like a trailer on YouTube. I've never really checked out the game, but
00:55:29
Speaker
To me, this is like an example of sexuality for sexuality's sake. Yes. Like it is fan service the game. Yeah. And again, I'm neutral because like it's not for me. Right. And I it doesn't bother me that some people like I want to play a game that's like pretty titties focused. Yeah.
00:55:48
Speaker
Okay, cool. You do that. Mm-hmm. But at the same time I could see where somebody's coming from if they're like Hey as a woman. I think this is portraying women in a bad light because it just has them as sexual objects It is a little literally that yeah, it's like you can't really make an argument that it's a not objectifying women That's kind of the whole point It's like now
00:56:13
Speaker
where that falls on your scale of society. Maybe if there's a little bit of that and there's a lot of like strong female characters and games that don't objectify women and equal representation and portrayal, maybe it doesn't matter so much. Like there are some games that completely objectify men too. I wouldn't say there's as many. Dream daddy. But yeah, exactly. Dream daddy. Yeah, there's definitely less examples. Yeah. Dragon Ball Z, the entire anime.
00:56:42
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, obviously there's kind of this axiom, sex sales, which interestingly enough, I mean, there's another game on here we could mention, which is BMX, triple X. Oh my God. Yeah. Which proves it entirely false because the game sold under a hundred thousand copies globally. And then a claim, which was the the publisher went under like not long after.
00:57:11
Speaker
But the U.S. doesn't like sex. Young teenagers, male teenagers, stuff like that, they would probably be the perfect audience for this, but they need their parents to buy it for them. Yeah, so that's probably not going to happen. Then you have the grown men who may have some interest in this, but they have other stuff to worry about, so they don't pick it up.
00:57:35
Speaker
and your game doesn't sell at all so like what were you aiming for for like demographic as it turns out in video games it doesn't really sell that much you gotta have like you have to have more to your game yeah so
00:57:50
Speaker
Like I see it as like maybe like, uh, a fun, silly, like LOL boobs. Yeah. Like if you just want to have something that's sexual and entertaining for just that. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Like there are things like porn. Maybe you have like a porn game or something and let people opt in who want to. Jake, your expression, people can't hear your expression, but I see that face. Um,
00:58:21
Speaker
I don't know. It's very limiting for your audience. It is. If you go more than just, this is topless women, then you'll be banned or you'll go AO in the US adults only. But from the ESRB, which means your game can't be sold in stores, essentially. Most stores will not sell it at all. You won't see it anywhere. Europe doesn't care because they don't care about sex. They care more about violence, but not by that much.
00:58:50
Speaker
and your game won't see the light of day in Australia because they'll refuse classification. But that happens on violence, too. It's like, Left 4 Dead, they had to take out all the dismemberment, or the game would have been refused classification. Because they only go up to 15, and then if a game is not appropriate for 15-year-olds, it got refused classification under that system.
00:59:11
Speaker
And so it would be functionally banned because they didn't have like the US and the US if you go to like Some of the seedier stores you could theoretically get adults only games. Mm-hmm in theory I mean like I actually don't have any evidence that that's true, but it should be possible in Australia. They literally cancel the game. So It's it's hard to make actual Not just mature themes but adult video games and expect people to pick it up
00:59:42
Speaker
Unless I assume you're on the internet like with with like self-funded things like patreon and Kickstarter and stuff like that I assume that's where the audience is Yeah, I can see there being an audience for it It's just like younger me would have appreciated that a lot more because
01:00:04
Speaker
It was like this new forbidden thing. Right. And just, you know, as like a teenage boy, you're just a hornball. Which I'm told that goes away at a point. Right. It's supposed to. It's supposed to. I've heard it's supposed to.
01:00:19
Speaker
But for me, I'm not like, don't give me two D cups, give me a three-dimensional character. Because I really do appreciate seeing strong female characters, like fucking Senua. Great game. And she has character and personality and drive. And you don't really hear her talk so much, because usually the voice is in her head. But you see a character who's developed, zing.
01:00:46
Speaker
And like progressing and going through a thing rather than just be like, have you seen my chest? I'm like, I get it. She's humanized. She's a person. It's like.
01:01:03
Speaker
The driving characteristic of Senua is her mental condition and her drive to overcome it, not literally any part of her body at all. I've been playing Horizon Zero Dawn. The protagonist in that is Aloy, and she's also a legitimate protagonist that's really, really likeable.
01:01:25
Speaker
Also, like, that's a character who, like, they made attractive. Yeah. But they're not... I mean, you've seen, like, the outfits. It's, like, Nordic. Not Nordic. It's borderline, like, Eskimo hunting-type stuff. Yeah. No, that's fair. Or some of it is kind of Nordic. But, like... Nordic, Celtic, Eskimo-ic. Is there a plane? Yeah. We're recording at the airport today. The government has found out that we were recording the M-rated episode.
01:01:54
Speaker
Swatter gonna come through the skylight or just ricochet off the top of your roof as there is no skylight. Don't tell the man a skylight. Yeah, I I do appreciate some like attractive characters in game. There's some sexuality. Hmm. I'm not gonna say I don't like boobs. But whoa, whoa. Controversially, yeah. That's the true conspiracy. But again, I don't like it if it's just to be like, hey, this is the hot person who everybody wants to fuck. Yeah. I'm like,
01:02:24
Speaker
And really, do we do need that? It's like it just doesn't like I won't say it doesn't do anything for me because it's a very base approach. Yeah, it's not going to get any sort of like satisfaction as far as the character is concerned. You're like, oh, that character is an icon. That character exists as I candy. What else does your game have? Right. Yes. Like and yeah, that's just. It's just my take on it, you know.
Relationships in Bioware and Witcher 3 Games
01:02:55
Speaker
So make games that have mechanics and features and characters and personalities that can stand up and not just a bunch of one-dimensional tropes and will be good. And people will actually buy your games and they might be able to be sold in the U.S. and Australia.
01:03:12
Speaker
That's that's true. Everybody's been going for Australia. Yeah, it's like risk everyone wants Australia well, you just don't want to like you don't want to completely block yourself out of the running you don't want to entirely block a continent from your reach as far as We don't have too many of them no, yeah, they really should get to work on that some more continents going but
01:03:37
Speaker
So as a kind of closing thought, as we're coming up on time, I'm out of thoughts. I got the closing thought, that's about it. And 15 minutes of silence. What do you think is a good example of sexuality in a game that you think is done well? Okay. Or you think fits? Hmm.
01:03:59
Speaker
So the cheap answer would be actually Mass Effect. So bring it full circle. Okay. Because those, like, Bioware is all about their characters. Obviously they've had some missteps recently. Anthem. And like, even before that, they've kind of been pushed in directions. I feel like, isn't there strength?
01:04:18
Speaker
but they've always been about characters in their games. You could grow to be friends with other members of your crew on the Normandy and Mass Effect, or your party in Dragon Age, or the other
01:04:34
Speaker
Jedi and Knights of the Old Republic. Those people are interesting on their own. You don't have to bang them to get satisfaction out of the characters in the game as much as HK-47 is the most romanceable character I think that's ever existed.
01:04:54
Speaker
Like, on the other hand, it's implausible for characters in these situations over long lengths of time to not grow bonds. It's entirely justified in the universe that some of these people would find happiness in each other's arms.
01:05:10
Speaker
Am I waxing poetic? Jake's like, I've definitely used this live on somebody before. I thought about it as I said it. I was like, was that hammy? It was a little bit hammy. A little ham. Just like put a nice layer of ham on top of it. But it's it's completely it's earned in the game. Most of the time, sometimes they're like, do we have someone you should you can bang? Because if not, we should really get that, you know, and you can tell when that's the case. Yeah. It's not an organic relationship.
01:05:40
Speaker
Like so like a lady walks by and touches your hand that like a cocktail party and you're like she wants it. Mm-hmm
01:05:48
Speaker
I'm like, eh. There's actually, um, there's an example of this in Dragon Age origins at the culmination of the game. Spoilers for the end of Dragon Age origins. I guess you've had time. I feel as though you've had the senses, but, um, the witch of the wilds, um, Morgan, uh, if you have a male character, we'll try to seduce you to have sex as that is usually what we're seduction eventually leads.
01:06:15
Speaker
And if you're not a male character, she'll try to get you to convince the other male character Grey Warden Alistair to have sex with her. You're like, that's kind of weird. You know, that's a little bit weird. Is this just fan service? Like at the end of the game, you're here to bang the Witch of the Wilds and...
01:06:30
Speaker
Oh man, there's another conquest for main character, main character protagonist. Uh, no, actually she wants to get pregnant to, so that when the archdemon is slain, there's this giant dragon, his soul will go to the corrupted child that is in her womb. And, uh, she ends up, if you go that path, she's out of sex with her, whatever. She ends up with like a God child in dragon age three.
01:06:59
Speaker
I guess I'll just spoil this Dragon Age thing. But it's like, it's, it's really freaking cool because that's entirely her initiative. Yeah. Like it's completely justified in the story. She's not a sex object at all. She's, if anything, dismissive of you for most of the game and it's her playing out her arc and you are an NPC in her story. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like, that's a complete reversal from the whole, like,
01:07:29
Speaker
Oh, you saved the maiden and now she's going to show her appreciation. It's freaking dumb to do it that way. Yeah. I, I don't like the whole shitty belief. Like girls like put up with sex. Yeah. People, humans are sexual. Right.
01:07:48
Speaker
There are some people who are asexual. Asexual people obviously do exist, but shout out to our listeners. I know one asexual person. I don't think they listen to podcasts. What was I going to say?
01:08:11
Speaker
lose my train of thought towards the end of the podcast. I don't know. I was just casually making fun of her listeners for insensitive and insensitive ways. So like, uh, cause I can't think of many games right now, uh, in Witcher three, uh, you have different relationships with a couple of different, usually source versus, yeah. He's got a type. Um, but it's not like he's,
01:08:37
Speaker
Going on a conquest and like, I'm going to go seduce this person for the sake of seducing them. It's usually like he is caught up in. Oh yeah. So who is the, uh, spoilers, but you're going to give a shit. Yeah. Who is the blonde sorceress? So can't remember her name. Oh my gosh. Uh, Unifer? No. Okay. No, she's black hair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Tris's red hair. Yes. Is blonde crap. I started with an M.
01:09:07
Speaker
Kira Metz that was it. Yeah, that's like a sports name sports team, I think That was like she kind of I was kind of clever good on you if Kira Knightley joined the Mets Kira Metz anyway, yeah
01:09:28
Speaker
Like you have this whole like you're chasing around horseback and then like you're trying to find her and like she dropped her items over clothing and you have like this naked picnic together and you roll in the hay. Right. And then he's really uncomfortable. I don't even know why people do that.
01:09:45
Speaker
I have an allergy, but in a hot way. Do you like Hives? Yeah, I play Zurg. So when you wake up though, she has ditched your ass to go investigate the one thing that she was being super shady about because she had her own motives and drives and
01:10:09
Speaker
seduced and use you. Yeah, exactly. This isn't to encourage like using people. Women should seduce men or men should seduce women. Yeah. Don't do whatever is natural and comfortable between two people. Yeah. Um, but I just like that it makes it more normalized. Like you're seeing humans doing human things. Yes. Rather than putting the little pussy on a pedestal and making everything so taboo or just using it for
01:10:40
Speaker
What's the word? Like fan service player. Like glorified sexuality. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it can be portrayed entirely for the player or for the character, the main character, but in the Witcher three, most of the time that there's like sex opportunities with like source races and stuff like that, they literally just want to get off or they're trying to get something from you.
01:11:03
Speaker
They exist basically entirely in a one-night stand almost entirely there are exceptions in a one-night stand kind of capacity and Geralt's attempts to push anything further beyond
01:11:19
Speaker
a purely like sexual relationship, plus like the benefits of someone who will run quests from them are rebuffed. They're just like, that's not what I'm here for. Like we had sex now go do things. It's all this reverse thing where they're the ones and they're the ones holding all of this kind of power over a girl to a certain extent. It makes it more interesting. It's like, yeah.
01:11:47
Speaker
That hasn't, I don't think that's been played out in games as much as the opposite has. It's definitely not. It's actually, it's almost like a direct reversal kind of of Witcher 1, which was like not as nearly a mature plot line. I think one of the main things I like about it, again, this has gotten better as I've gotten older, is like you see
01:12:09
Speaker
A female character who's capable and not like your peach from Mario. Exactly. It's like, they exist to be saved. Yeah. That's like one, a shitty character motivation as far as storytelling goes. Two, the fuck's that character do? Fuck, they do nothing. Yeah. They just exist. They're a plot device. Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:33
Speaker
They could be, they could be a literal mega anime. Sword Art Online. Uh-huh. First season. You have, uh, I lost enough. Yeah, I think that sounds right. She's not the lightning blade. She's definitely. She's like a badass cool character. Yeah. Right. Um, but then like the second season, they went a bit of a different direction and hard gimter. She was a prisoner the whole fucking season. And then it was being like tentacle tickled in a weird way.
01:13:02
Speaker
Yeah, she's just full-on helpless maiden for being the warrior woman. That's better than the protagonist. And like to me that was a shitty season in general. Yeah. And that was one of the main reasons for me. Yeah, it's worth bringing that up just for how good of an example it is between the good portrayal where main characters interact on equality and strength. Yes. Or still something for the main character to strive for. The fact that she's just stronger than him.
01:13:31
Speaker
Immediately to the opposite end where it's just OG the protagonist is the hero of mankind or he's got to go save his waifu and yeah She's completely helpless and it's freaking dumb. Don't do that It's like the reverse you could say the writers learned a lot But since that was season two But that's that's a probably a pretty solid closing thought
01:13:58
Speaker
This is a... This is a different episode than we usually run. Yeah, and it's longer too. What up Dark Souls? Yeah, I know, right? Controversies in Dark Souls. Game's too hard. But yeah, we don't believe that here.
01:14:15
Speaker
I'd like to thank everyone for listening to another episode of Soapstone. As always, you can send your feedback into us at soapstonepodcast at gmail.com directly, or you can join the discussion on Facebook at facebook.com slash soapstonepodcast. And we look forward to hearing from you. And as always, we will see you in the next one.
01:14:37
Speaker
Also, you can leave interactive tip comments on Venmo. Just throwing that out there. Okay, bye.