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Michiel Panhuysen | In The Spell Of The Barkley
113 Plays2 years ago
In this episode Michelle chats with Ultra Runner and Author Michiel Panhuysen.
Journalist and ultrarunner Michiel Panhuysen is a multiple-time Barkley entrant, having fallen under the spell of this most enigmatic of races – and its presiding philosopher-genius organizer Lazarus Lake – in the early 2010s. On each occasion, the Barkley won. The Barkley nearly always wins.
Mig is Author of In The Spell Of The Barkley that has just been translated into English.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Episode
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to episode 69 of the UK Run Chat podcast. I'm Joe Williams, but in today's interview, your host will be Michelle Mortimer, also known as Miles with Michelle on social media.
00:00:11
Speaker
In this episode, Michelle chats with ultra runner and author, Michiel Panusen. Pleased to give us feedback on the podcast, either on our social media channels or our email is info at ukrunchat.co.uk. Enjoy this episode with Michelle and Meg, and we will see you on the next episode. Welcome to the UK Run Chat podcast today. I'm your host, Michelle Mortimer. And today we have the pleasure of speaking with Michiel Ponhoisan. I hope I've pronounced that right.
00:00:40
Speaker
who is an accomplished ultra-runner and author from the Netherlands. So Mig has completed multiple ultra-marathons. He's the author of the book, In the Spell of the Barclay, which has just been translated into English. So we're really excited to chat to you today about your running experiences and your new book. So welcome. I believe you're joining us from Greece. Whereabouts are you at the moment?
Michiel's Background in Climbing and Transition to Ultra Running
00:01:06
Speaker
Yeah, hello. Good morning. Yes, I'm in Greece now at the moment.
00:01:10
Speaker
So, whereabouts are you? Oh, I'm in Peloponnese now in the south of the country. And I'm here for a short climbing holiday, rock climbing holiday. And normally I'm living half of my time in the Netherlands and half of my time in Greece.
00:01:33
Speaker
I'm a journalist and kind of a digital nomad, so I can travel and go wherever I want and work or do other things that I'm interested to do. Oh, fantastic. What a life! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah, so you started out climbing, didn't you? So just tell us a little bit about your background and your introduction to ultra running, really, from there. How do you go from climbing extreme vertical faces to running ultra marathons? Yeah, this is, for me, there are two kind of ultra runners, let's say, people who get into ultra running, at least ultra
00:02:18
Speaker
trail running, what I was doing, so not running road races, but running in mountains or in forests or in natural areas. And one of these groups is coming from, let's say, the normal athletes, which started running, like, marathons or races or, you know, like, road races or even in stadium. And they get into this ultra,
00:02:46
Speaker
or trail running or ultra trail running or whatever, and they have this as a background, so they are very interested in time, in distance, in speed, and let's say all the normal issues that you're confronted with if you are running on the road.
00:03:04
Speaker
And I'm coming from another background, and it's more like the adventure or a mountaineer background. So I used to be as a young person, I used to go to the mountains, I used to do rock climbing, I went into glaciers, I went into the Alps to climb mountains. And then, at a later age, I started to do running, and I like to do this in mountain area.
00:03:34
Speaker
I have a background with a lot of vertical, let's say, issues. I'm used to be in higher elevations, or I know what it is to carry a rucksack, to carry some weight on your back.
Early Races and Discovery of the Barkley Marathons
00:03:52
Speaker
It gives a different mindset to this kind of running.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So yeah, that more adventurous side of being on the trails in the high mountains appeals and you've done some really mountainous, long races, haven't you? Like PTL is one that you chatted about in the book quite a lot. Yeah, for me, it started as a
00:04:20
Speaker
Let's say I was a mountaineer, I was mostly climbing, and the only running or hiking I did was to go to a rock face, just before I started running, and let's say to go for 10 minutes, or 20 minutes, or half an hour, maybe an hour to go to the cracks,
00:04:45
Speaker
let's say my hiking in the years just before starting running. So I didn't do a lot of mileage, let's say. And then I learned that I started to be more concerned about my physical condition. I said, okay, this climbing is not really...
00:05:10
Speaker
a sport that's more like an activity, it's more like a mental balance, it's about danger. And then I started to do some training, some one-hour runs, and then let's say this started to be like 10 kilometers or a little bit more, like 11, 12, 13. And then I did my first smaller race, 14 kilometers it was, I remember.
00:05:36
Speaker
And then this grew, let's say, slowly to 21 kilometers, 25 kilometers, 30 kilometers. And it ended up doing, let's say, races like 50, 60, 70 kilometers. Wow. And this was, let's say, the moment in which I got in contact with websites and information about more long-distance running. Yeah. And I came into contact with
00:06:05
Speaker
I found somewhere on the Internet a report about a very strange race, and this was called the Barkley Marathons, and I didn't know anything about this race, and I didn't find anything about this race on the Internet, and the report that I read was very...
00:06:34
Speaker
Interesting. And so, yeah, it was like a very strange thing to me, but because I didn't find anything about this race, I left it like it was and I went on with my running. You had a very different introduction to the Barclay, didn't you? Because a lot of runners nowadays tend to have done huge races and they're often quite well known now when they decide that they're ready for the Barclay. Yeah, this is clear.
00:07:03
Speaker
Normally, people who get into contact with the Barkley, because the Barkley is a 100-mile race, they know already how to run long races, they did maybe like some 300, 400, 500 miles in their lives, so they had a lot of experience on this ultra-running. I've done some, when I get to the first time on the Barkley,
00:07:33
Speaker
a long race is some old trials, but not like 100km or 100 miles, so I just went to a little bit more than a marathon. But I was very interested in the subject and very interested in the race, and so after not finding the information I wanted, or I needed, I bought an air ticket to Knoxville, to Tennessee from the Netherlands,
00:08:04
Speaker
I just went out to find out what it was. So I went to the Berkeley and I found a way to pay for my tickets by selling an article about it on the forehand. So I knew that my trip would be like COVID. And I went to visit the race and just as a journalist, not as a runner,
00:08:30
Speaker
And there, when I came into this first time, into this park where this race was held, I found a group of people there which were the runners that were there and at the start and the finish in the park were really kind of very interesting runners, people that were busy with this very extreme sports,
00:08:59
Speaker
doing extreme distances, behaving in an extreme way, and also they formed a very nice group of people around me. From the first moment I was there, they formed a family to me, and they thought, OK, who is this guy that's coming all the way from Europe? There were no Europeans at that time in the Berkeley.
00:09:27
Speaker
and he's very interested in our obscure race and they just said come and they showed me you know like everything and ins and outs and they explained me everything how things work and stuff and so I ended up the year after that I was speaking 2011 now and but
00:09:52
Speaker
One Berkeley loop, the five loops, with one Berkeley loop was, let's say, about, okay, I run a little bit more than this, like 20 miles, but it was about my extreme. These were about my limitations, but this was one loop. And so, five loops are far beyond my possibilities. And so, but I was so by the atmosphere and the people around this race, they were so
Challenges and Experiences at the Barkley Marathons
00:10:21
Speaker
so warm, so overwhelming, so it was such a nice experience that they just invited me for 2012 to participate in this race. I said at first, this is not within my possibilities, but later on I said, when I went home after my first visit,
00:10:50
Speaker
And I wrote my article and I got my reactions of people about this strange race. Then it started like something started to grow inside of me and said, okay, let's give it a try. Let's see and experience how it is. So in 2012, I was not really well prepared, but I came to participate for the first time in this race.
00:11:20
Speaker
And there again, I had this experience of this group of people that were taking care of me and helping me and bringing me mentally, not physically, but mentally as far as I could in this race. And this later became like the first steps for me into ultra running,
00:11:50
Speaker
I became really interested in what it was, it's ultra running. And Barkley became like a prototype example of an ultra race. For normal runners, for normal ultra runners, let's say, Barkley is something very extreme and strange and exceptional. And this is not ultra running, but it's something like way beyond ultra running. And for me, this became like, okay, so this is ultra.
00:12:21
Speaker
And so in the races I was doing later, I always took the Barkley as my standard. For normal ultra runners, if there are any normal ultra runners, this is a very extreme form of ultra running. And for me it became, OK, this is how ultra running should be. And this was very interesting.
00:12:50
Speaker
This is the start of a longer ultra-career, let's say, for me. Yeah, and I started to do... When I came back after my first race in 2012, in the summer after, because it's normally in the first month of the year, the broccoli. In the summer that followed on my first broccoli, I started to do some races in the Alps,
00:13:19
Speaker
from 120, 130 kilometers and I started to learn how to struggle, let's say, with fatigue and sore muscles and the mind that is refusing and the willing not to go on anymore, to really reach your limits,
00:13:45
Speaker
and I learned slowly, race by race, how to deal with these feelings and get to finishes from different races anyway, though you didn't want to... There was always a moment in the race where I wanted to stop going on, and something inside me
00:14:12
Speaker
just decided, made me going on and finish this race. Not always, because I had to learn how it worked in my system, let's say. This was a very valuable experience for me, as a runner, as a person, to deal with all this. This experience helped me, at least,
00:14:41
Speaker
I hope it would help me to have a little bit more success in the Barclays to come. So in 2013 I went again, and in 2014 I went again, but I never managed to get further than one and a half loop in this first series of three Barclays. And then in 2016 I managed finally to
00:15:10
Speaker
to do two loops in the Berkeley, but before this, one year before the 2016 Berkeley for me, for example, I ran a PTL in France, a huge race of more than 300 kilometres with 26,000
00:15:35
Speaker
meters of elevation change, which is a grueling race. Yeah. So this is like a mountain marathon, isn't it? With no, there's no set route. Is that right? No, it's a nonstop race, let's say. So you go on like for 130, 40 hours, 150 hours. So it's like six days in a row and no, well, you can stop if you want, but it's all eating, let's say,
00:16:02
Speaker
a little bit of the time from your limits. So the more you stop, the less is your chance that you'll finish it. So this is how it worked for me. All these kinds of races became
00:16:23
Speaker
They became a kind of training for me, mental training for all and also physical training to get ready for a Barkley. This is always in my mind, to go through this process of becoming mentally so strong that you will be able to run at least what they call in the Barkley a fun run,
00:16:51
Speaker
three loops within 40 hours. Yeah, that's a lot, isn't it? So can we just set the scene for those of our listeners who aren't perhaps familiar with the Berkeley, although it is growing in popularity, you know, especially this year, I was hooked on Twitter for about three or four days,
Mechanics and Challenges of the Barkley Marathons
00:17:09
Speaker
trying to keep up with the tweets. And we had Jasmine Paris, she of course started the final loop last year.
00:17:16
Speaker
And Damian Hall did loop five on his first go at it. And there were three, three winners this year, weren't there? And that's unusual for the Barkley because it is a tough race. What, what is it that makes this race so fascinating? And just give us an overview of, you know, what it is and its quirkiness. Well, the, um, which is maybe what is more, most important of this is that the secrecy of, of all this. So.
00:17:45
Speaker
The Berkeley is not a race that has, for example, a website, so you cannot find a lot of official information about the race. There is not a race date, for example, so you don't know when it is. You don't know if you found out when it is, when it's held, when the start is held.
00:18:11
Speaker
You don't know, no one knows what is the starting time, so it's very difficult and has quite some details, let's say, of this race, most people know, that have already made it like a magic race, like maybe, you know, the first time
00:18:35
Speaker
For me, my first experience was that I didn't believe that there was really such thing as a Berkeley. There's so few information about it that you start doubting if it's really existing. It's a very small race, maybe it's good. It starts in a state park, in a small national park. It's a state park of Tennessee.
00:19:02
Speaker
in the eastern part of the United States, somewhere far away in the mountains and on the campsite, in a magic place which is called the start and finish line, is the yellow gate, which is a gate that is the indication of the start of the park. And people are gathering there for three days,
00:19:30
Speaker
from these days from all parts of the world, from Japan, Europe, South America, Americans, Canadians, from everywhere, just a few of them can participate, because there's a maximum of 40 people who can participate in the race, and they are just waiting for the moment to start. And then last, the race director is blowing,
00:20:00
Speaker
making some very strange noise on a conch. It's like a seashell. That is the magic indication that there are 60 minutes to go to the start. And last, the race director is giving a starting sign, not with a pistol or with a whistle or something, but he's just lighting a cigarette.
00:20:29
Speaker
Everyone knows that this is the moment to start racing, let's say, to start the first loop. The race consists of five loops, it's five times 20 mile loop, so it's 100 miles in total. And every runner has a beep, let's say, a race number.
00:20:55
Speaker
And along the trail, you'll find some books, hidden books, and every runner used to... They work as an unmanned checkpoint, so every book, the runner has to take the page of this book, just take it out of the book, which is according to your race number. So if you're number 20, you take page number 20.
00:21:24
Speaker
So after one loop, you get a new race number, because the page number 20, if you go in the next loop, it's not there anymore in the book if everything is OK. So after the loop, after you finish one loop, you come back to the yellow gate where you started. And then last, the race director will count your pages. So if there are 10 books, the number is about 10 books, but sometimes it's 12 books, sometimes 14 books, but it's about 10, 15 books. The race director will count your pages
00:21:54
Speaker
after every loop. And if one page is missing, you are disqualified. So this issue with the pages and the missing pages for all this year, I think at least two or three runners were disqualified because they were not able to show all their pages. Whether they lost one or they forgot a book or they couldn't find a book, I don't know.
00:22:22
Speaker
I know a story from a French guy two years ago that he was standing on a ridge somewhere and there was a strong wind and he had his pages and they just blew away from his hand. So it was the end of the race for him. This pages can cause a lot of stress. I heard this year, I did a hike, I think the race was over and took the book too. Yeah, this was a... My one runner.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yes, the guy who was in front of the pack, let's say, there were three, let's be sure, there were four people in loop five because Damien also, he was in loop five, so in the last loop. And three of them finished, and the first guy that finished, Aurelien Sanchez, the French guy, he came at the last book, and there was no, let's say at the location, it should be the last book, and there was no book anymore.
00:23:19
Speaker
So you can imagine him after about 55 hours, close to 60 hours of running and being so close to like, let's say a finish of the Barkley, which is very exclusive, not really many people can say that they finished the Barkley. And he was so close to this and then he
00:23:41
Speaker
just could not find the book anymore. So you can imagine his frustration. At least I can imagine his frustration or panic or state of mind, let's say, in which he would be not finding his book. So he decided just to go down and to go to the book, because he was very close to the finish line, to the campsite. And he came down and said, okay, I have no book, but people started.
00:24:09
Speaker
They, like, at the finish line, they gave him the book and with a lot of excuses. He had, sorry, there's a guy that thought the race was over and he took the book already. Like, it was an ordinary hiker. And so almost destroyed his race. And so this was like one of the very few exceptions that if you do not bring all the pages of the book,
00:24:37
Speaker
let's say your book page is to the finish that you're not disqualified so he was always disqualified but okay of course this time they gave him like his finishing. So I mean what is it that makes the Barclay so difficult then? I mean it's taken really strong
00:24:58
Speaker
10 to 12 hours to do a 20 mile loop. What is it about it that is so, so difficult that makes it a pinnacle for ultra runners? No, I think basically it's two things that should explain this. First, it's 20 miles, but it's not 20 flat miles. Let's say it's not 20 miles in a Dutch polar, which is full of meters of elevation.
00:25:29
Speaker
It's 20 miles with 4,000 meters of elevation change, positive elevation change. So I think in the same distance, the hardest race I ever did, it was in Belgium, which has a lot of elevation in some parts, was about 1,800 meters, not even 2,000 meters of elevation for the same distance of a loop.
00:25:58
Speaker
And this is double this elevation change, so basically it means that you go up for an hour and then you go down for an hour, then you go up for an hour, then you go down again for an hour, then you go up for an hour, so it's about five to seven meters of elevation change all the time. And this elevation change is not in a mild way, it's in a very aggressive way, so it's very, very steep hills, you go up and down. And so this is...
00:26:29
Speaker
conditionally, it's very challenging, let's say, to do a loop, for the part to do a second loop, or a third, or a fourth, or even a fifth loop. So this is one, it's very demanding physically. The terrain also, there is only 25-30% is trails, and for the rest it's not trails. Also, there are branches of trees,
00:26:58
Speaker
There are rocks, rock piles, it's a lot of difficulties, let's say, on the way. In these difficulties also it's that you have to find your way by navigating, so there's no sign... there's not a signposted track or whatever. So you have to be sure, to make sure on your map that more or less you go in the right direction.
00:27:24
Speaker
And the second big part that makes it very difficult is the uncertainty of everything. So instead of being sure that you're on the right track, you're never sure that you're on the right place. Because there is no official track to follow, but it's not signposted.
00:27:49
Speaker
And another part of this insecurity and uncertainty is that, for example, the starting moment is not a given. So if a race normally would start at six o'clock in the morning or ten o'clock in the morning or at noon or in the afternoon, you can prepare mentally for all the week or the month before that, okay, you will sleep until four o'clock in the morning or you'll sleep
00:28:15
Speaker
you'll wake up maybe at 10 to make it as late as possible. You can prepare in this way, you can prepare in a mental way on this challenge that you will go to try to tackle. And in this way, in the Barkley, you just don't know. So the race can start in any moment from midnight till noon in the next day. This is what you know.
00:28:45
Speaker
And the only thing you know is that Lars will wake you up with his conch 60 minutes before he will light his cigarettes, so before the start. And this causes a sleepless night. Yeah, I was going to say, you can't relax when you're waiting for that conch shell, can you? Yeah, yeah. And even if, let's say the start, I think many times the start is just between 9 and 11 somewhere.
00:29:16
Speaker
in the morning, so it would be like getting up at seven, have a coffee and have your breakfast, go to take a shower maybe, do some meditation if you want to do anything like everything that you need to do before such a race. But even if it is at nine o'clock or 10 o'clock the start, you don't know because it might be at three in the morning. So when you go to bed, let's say,
00:29:47
Speaker
The stress already starts, let's say, in the night before. This is what you can say. And then the race takes about 60 hours. So 60 hours, at least it's two nights. And maybe three nights. And it depends on the starting time.
00:30:12
Speaker
All these kind of things make it very difficult to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So can I ask a little bit about navigation because obviously the race rules don't allow any kind of GPS. There's no official route. You basically have to look at a map beforehand with the route drawn out, see where the books are.
00:30:35
Speaker
and then go and find your way with just a map and a compass without reference to this original map. Is that right? Yes, yes. So there is, let's say, the exact track of the race. The race director is changing some details of the race, some part of the race from time to time in order to make it more challenging, let's say.
00:31:05
Speaker
you just know the exact track of the race the day before the race. And he makes a master copy, let's say, of a map and you can draw the map on your own. You can draw the lines of the exact track and the places where you can find the books on your own map the day before the race. So if you
00:31:34
Speaker
if you want to be sure that you are not having any navigational problems, then normally you make a copy of your own copy as well, to have two maps, let's say, to be sure that somewhere in your backpack there is another copy, like Frank Hayes, that you lost one of the maps, which also happens. Yeah, so this is how you get the track and how you can navigate.
00:32:03
Speaker
it requires some navigational skills, but it's not orienteering. The navigation is not so difficult, it's pretty easy, but anyway, it can be an issue, and the most runners, like Damien, I read a story from Damien Hall, the English runner,
00:32:33
Speaker
that did it so well this year. He did. This is what happened with people who go for the first time, they're called virgins in Berkeley language. The first commerce, they are virgins. And if you're there for a second or more time, you're a veteran, you're called a veteran. So most virgins, they follow a veteran on their first
00:33:00
Speaker
like in their first Barkley or in their first Barkley loop. But it has some... It is a little bit dangerous to do it as a virgin, let's say, to follow a veteran, because you never know how strong the veteran is. And if the veteran is a bit stronger than you are, then you have to stop for a while to...
00:33:28
Speaker
to have a drink or to have a snack or whatever, even to adjust your shoes or whatever, then your risk if you do not follow on the map where you are exactly in the forest somewhere, then you might risk that the guy you are following is just gone and you are there in your own in the forest not knowing where to go and where you come from and where you are on the map.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess you're not as alert at navigating when you are with somebody like that who knows where they are, are you? Yeah, it depends how strong they are. The safest way is to choose, let's say, a veteran who is not as strong as you are physically in order to have some extra space or time like that and some extra comfort.
00:34:24
Speaker
If you do so, then you risk to lose a lot of time, let's say, because the veteran you're following is too slow. Another thing that counts is that you never know if the veteran is really... You're a veteran if you did one loop. In the previous year, maybe three years ago, this person did one loop and followed another...
00:34:51
Speaker
a veteran, let's say, you can ask yourself if this person really knows the track. And so many times also veterans, they lose, let's say, the place where they are and they really get lost. And so this getting lost is an issue in the Berkeley. And especially because the race, we didn't talk about this is going on for days and nights.
00:35:21
Speaker
touch is going on for 60 hours. So big part of the race is during the night, then you've got the loop in your head. And then last says, right, you're going in the opposite direction now. So for example, yes. So or you know, the loop in daytime, but
00:35:42
Speaker
If you go to a forest, even you know yourself in daytime, and you go there at nighttime, it's completely different. If you have some light with you, it's completely different terrain. Also the broccoli goes clockwise or in counterclockwise direction, it depends on every loop.
00:36:08
Speaker
So if you know very well clockwise the track, then what happens if you go in the same place counterclockwise? So, yeah, it's pretty challenging, yes. And getting lost, I think also this year, if I remember well, Jasmine Paris also got lost somewhere in some places.
00:36:35
Speaker
Normally, you just lose some time and also, let's say, it's mentally very, very, very demanding if you're so tired already and you have to make some extra miles or kilometers or elevation, because you just took a wrong decision somewhere.
00:36:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's tough. There's a lot feeding into why it's perhaps the most difficult race ever, and I'm sure that Lass will make it very difficult next year, because he's constantly changing. He has to make... I think everyone is looking forward to what's going on next year, because it happened in 2012 also, that there were three finishes at the time, but just since 2017, there was no finisher. So this year, it was like after five or six years,
00:37:25
Speaker
Again, there was some finishers, a finisher, which became three finishers.
Traditions and Mentors at Barkley
00:37:30
Speaker
Okay, so I think there will be a revenge of the race director for next year. Yeah, and he likes to play little tricks like this, doesn't he? Just to kind of, you know, make things harder. I mean, what's the deal with Bibb number one as well? He gives the number one to somebody that he doesn't think will finish a loop, is that right? Yeah, number one, this is also one of this Berkeley,
00:37:55
Speaker
tricks. The number one is the human sacrifice. That's right. Yeah, so this year was another British runner, Nicki Spinks. Yeah. And normally the human sacrifice, it's a story within a story within a story. The human sacrifice is there is there is a
00:38:18
Speaker
Les says that a computer gives every runner, just before the race, that he put all the characteristics of the runners who will participate in a computer and the computer will, like an oracle, say what's going on. Okay. This is a game.
00:38:40
Speaker
And so he said the Belgian guy will do very strong in the uphills, but will have some issues finding his way in the downhills. And one of the other things is that this human sacrifice comes out of the computer. That's the description of how the race will go.
00:39:05
Speaker
And the human sacrifice is the first person to come back to the allogates with a DNF, let's say, without finishing. So it's a bit of an ironical, sarcastical prediction. But sometimes, or let's say most of the times, these runners who will have this human sacrifice, stigma on their face,
00:39:32
Speaker
they are so motivated to do well that they perform better than to be the human sacrifice.
Mental Resilience in Ultra Running
00:39:42
Speaker
I think the person who came back now this year for the first time was I think he's 75 years old meanwhile.
00:39:55
Speaker
Frozen Ed, the first finisher of the Barkley a long time ago. I think he was the first to come back this year. Ed was the guy that you first got in touch with, wasn't it? Frozen Ed. Is that right? Yeah, he's a very, very, very nice person that is very like an ambassador of the of the Barkley since all these years. I think about 30 years ago, he was the 40 years ago, he was the first
00:40:26
Speaker
the finisher of the Barkley, which was at that time 50 miles, not yet 100 miles. And he's very... If there are people new in the race, most of the people go to Frozen, and he explains to them where to go, how to prepare, if you can prepare. He's like a guide,
00:40:54
Speaker
to many people in this event, yes. When I was travelling for the first time to participate, the second time I went to the United States, he invited me to come to his home and we stayed there. I was staying with my partner there for two or three nights and he was explaining me how to train and how he was training. He's a very warm person, he's a very nice guy, yes.
00:41:22
Speaker
So his training was surprising actually. Let's talk a little bit about that because in the book you describe the training that you underwent to really, and it's not just about physical training, is it? It's about training your mind. And some of your methods are, I admit I've not heard of them before. You described at one point doing your washing up in the rain as being good training. So yeah, can we talk a little bit about that?
00:41:50
Speaker
Yeah, this is what I say about ultra-running. A big part of the preparation for an ultra is, OK, part of it is physically you have to have good condition muscles in your heart, like your system should be well trained. But a very big part and an underestimated part for ultra-running is also the mental part. And the mental part, if I try to explain it in a short way,
00:42:20
Speaker
is that you always come in such a challenging situation. You get to a point where physically and mentally you say, no, I don't want to go on anymore. So if you do a 100 kilometer race, maybe after 40 or 50 or 60 kilometers, you just sit down somewhere on a chair or on a couch or on a piece of rock that you find on your way and you say, no, I'm finished. I'm done. I cannot go on anymore. And this is normal.
00:42:49
Speaker
because you push your system to the limit. But going and doing this ultra means going beyond these limits. And so when you choose to sit down on this rock and to allow yourself the thoughts that maybe it's better to stop, it's a choice.
00:43:16
Speaker
And you can train yourself to overcome this choice to sit down and to say, no, I just go on. Because if your mind says I go on, probably you can go on. Because when you just fall down and your system collapses, then you cannot go on anymore. But mostly it's your mind that makes you stop.
00:43:43
Speaker
And so you can train all this by facing all kinds of things or situations in running, but also in normal life that you say, you know, I don't like to do this, but you still go on doing it. And one of the things is, let's say, doing the dishes. And if you have a dishwasher, then you don't know this, but if you don't have a dishwasher or you choose not to have a dishwasher, you know, okay,
00:44:13
Speaker
after a meal or after there are some dirty dishes, you have to clean it. It's not a nice job to do, at least for most people it's not a nice job to do. But if you force yourself to do it again and again, then you will see that it's going to be less a problem. I used to have a house in Belgium in the forest somewhere where we didn't have any dishwasher and not even hot water. I had to take some water out of the stream
00:44:44
Speaker
to do the dishes. Especially in winter time, this was not a nice job to do. Most of the time it was not even hot, because I didn't manage to get the water hot. You have to do the dishes with cold water, especially if there's some fat inside. It's really challenging to do the dishes, and it's not nice at all. Then imagine if it starts snowing, and you do the dishes. It's going to be from worse to worse.
00:45:14
Speaker
For me, it became more like a challenge to do it and a mental training to find the most difficult situation to do the dishes. The same count, let's say, in trainings. You can go for a training, because of course, if you're doing this ultra, most of the days you're doing something with running or training, and you can choose, let's say, the best.
00:45:40
Speaker
time to do your running, the best conditions to do your running. Let's say it's not too hot, not too cold, it's not raining, it's a little bit windy, so this is a perfect time for running. But you can also choose the moment, let's say, maybe there is some rain forecasted in the afternoon, so I can go to run now, but if I wait until the afternoon, it's raining, so it's more challenging. So you're looking for the more difficult situations
00:46:09
Speaker
So instead of avoiding difficulties, you're just targeting these difficulties. And when this becomes a sport, let's say, to find the most difficult situation to do your training. And so it's the same with... It's a side way, but most runners, they are finding lightweight gear.
00:46:39
Speaker
lightweight backpack, lightweight shoes, lightweight rain jacket maybe. But you can also look at it in an opposite way, let's say, to find the most heavy shoes, to find the most heavy backpack, to carry the most possible weight. Because this is a part of the training, let's say, to look for these difficulties,
00:47:06
Speaker
especially in a training situation. So to make the training as difficult as possible. So one of the things I did was one of the training forms I used to do is just to take an old rucksack and fill it with stones and to go up
00:47:26
Speaker
like to run up with the rucksack with 10 kilograms of stones inside the rucksack. And then another thing, you can combine this for example with another thing which is very mentally challenging, for me at least it was, now it's not so anymore, it was to do repeats, to do for example hill repeats. If you want to train elevation, let's say you want to train 2,000 metres of
00:47:56
Speaker
of elevation and you have a 200m elevation little mountain or a hill or whatever, then you just go up, you did the 200m, you go down again and you go up again and you repeat this 10 times. So these are called hill repeats. The first two is still okay, the third and the fourth and the fifth and the sixth.
00:48:21
Speaker
maybe also still okay, but after 15 times you're really fed up with going up and down again. And so the repeat number 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19, they are very, very important. And then you're challenging always, you go to the limit and then you go beyond. So the best is most of the times I ended up going, let's say 21 or 22 times up.
00:48:47
Speaker
Like just not to finish it on 20, you say, yeah, and you push yourself, just go on and do it one more time, just, you know, for the sake of it. Yeah. And, and all these kinds of things are, uh, and if you do this with, with, with, I did this hill repeats also in Greece.
00:49:08
Speaker
because in the Netherlands it was more difficult to find a hill, there was no hill at all. But in Greece, when I started doing these trainings, I started to make stone piles, let's say, on the points where I came up the top of a hill. I started to carry these stones, and this is what I called the Sisyphus training. Yeah.
00:49:35
Speaker
the person in Greek mythology that had to carry a stone up a hill, up a mountain, and then when it was up it was rolling down again, and he had to take it up again, the stone, until the top of the hill, and then it was rolling down again, so endlessly going up, carrying the stone.
00:49:58
Speaker
So at the time of doing this training, are you enjoying it or are you just enduring it? Is that the whole point that you make it as miserable as possible? This is very interesting philosophical. In modern life, everything should be fun or nice. And this is how actually, as modern people think about how society or life should be,
00:50:28
Speaker
as comfortable as possible. And once, at least for me, once I started to do these kind of trainings, I realised that it's not only about fun, it's also... It can be fun, but if it's not fun, then OK, it's not fun, so it's not a big deal. And if everything should be fun, it's not possible that life is not always fun.
00:50:57
Speaker
This is not life, so life means that sometimes it's not fun, and if you are prepared for this not fun moment, the better you are prepared for it, the better you deal with these not funny situations. So it means that also that... the not funny situations become...
00:51:27
Speaker
It's not so difficult anymore and there's not so much... If you're trained to deal with difficult situations, less and less situations are difficult.
Philosophy and Self-Exploration through Ultra Running
00:51:40
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. So it's a reverse way of thinking about it. And I think many people now in these days are focused on this comfortable part of life
00:51:58
Speaker
And so they are extremely frustrated or in pain or in problem if they come in a situation that it's not so nice. And OK, I used also these trainings, let's say, in order to become, let's say, a more peaceful person, I don't know.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, I guess you face challenges and the more challenges you face, the more you can deal with whatever life throws at you. Yeah, the more challenges you face, the less challenges there are. Yeah, yeah, I like that. So in this way, all these pointless trainings which you can call become not so pointless anymore, but make life more manageable, let's say.
00:52:52
Speaker
Maybe this is a good word for it. Yeah. I mean, let's just talk about ultra running in general because that word pointless has just reminded me of a quote that stood out to me, particularly in the book. I mean, there are a few of them.
00:53:04
Speaker
when you first discovered ultra running. And I'll give you a few quotes from the book. So this is pointless. Ultra running hurts. Ultra is not fun. Ultra is what happens when I fight against my will. So it's so difficult. Why do we do it? I mean, where does your drive for doing these long ultra events come from?
00:53:31
Speaker
When this all started, I didn't have a drive, so it's all, let's say, backward philosophy, looking backwards to it. And I think that doing, exploring, let's say, myself in this ultra-racist, for all the mental part, was like a search for
00:54:01
Speaker
to bring myself into situations in which you can discover parts of yourself that in ordinary life situations you will not find, you will not discover. So if you run for 60 hours, 70 hours, 80 hours non-stop, then everything hurts, you're not comfortable at all anymore, so you become a very pure
00:54:30
Speaker
version of yourself and you discover behaviour of yourself and you discover a way of functioning of your brain and body that you didn't know before and this is just a way to know yourself a little bit more and also in other situations where you find, let's say in ordinary life,
00:55:00
Speaker
some kind of difficulty, you just know and you remember the times in which you had such more difficulties than in the situation that you're now. Then you can compare it and you say, OK, it's doable in work or in relationships or with family
00:55:27
Speaker
You know from yourself that it can be so much worse than when you're in now, that it's relatively okay. So this is what if you go back to this quote, it's all about this. You go to a limit. The suffering is part of this.
00:56:00
Speaker
You know on the forehand that if you do such a race or a project, sometimes it's not even a race, but you organise it yourself, so there's not a start and a finish line, you just do all this to yourself, and you know you're going to suffer, you know it's not going to be comfortable, but this is the situation you're looking for, and you're looking for this not-so-comfortable situation,
00:56:26
Speaker
to get over it, to deal with it, to learn how to deal with it and to see what's happening. It's really exploring yourself. But this has nothing to do with fun. And again, before we just said that life is not about fun. Life is not only about fun. Fun is part of life. It can be part of life.
00:56:56
Speaker
to deal with all these situations is more interesting. And to find out how it works for you in your personal situation is, for me, it's very interesting to find out. And this is what I could like to... If for other people who ask me why you do all this, I can just say to them that, yeah, this is...
00:57:24
Speaker
Try it yourself. If you have a need, if you're interested in this to find it for yourself, what's going to happen with you if... It's for me, it's in a totally different situation. I'm a man. I'm not able to give birth to a child because it's physically only possible for women.
00:57:49
Speaker
But it's a part of life in general, which I cannot take part of, so I can never experience this. But let's say to be in a situation on a mountain, being exhausted, not having sleep for hours, for days, hallucinating, seeing strange things, hearing strange voices,
00:58:18
Speaker
being in a very strange situation, yes, this I can do, so this I can manage, this I can bring myself into this situation. And it's just very interesting for me to see what happens. And I can also, years ago, I had some experiences with some drugs, some medicines, let's say, and I also had hallucinations,
00:58:48
Speaker
And this is what they were caused by the medicines or by the drugs, let's say. And you find out in such extreme race that same kind of things happen with you if you push yourself to these limits. So this is very interesting, right? It's kind of self-exploring, yes.
00:59:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what advice would you give to somebody who was thinking, I want to give this ultra running a try? What would you recommend they do? Where should they start? I think most people think they would like also to experience it maybe, but they think they cannot do it. They are physically not able to do it. They think they are physically not able to do it.
00:59:45
Speaker
And I would say to them, if you're really interested, just give it a try and just go for it. It does not only mean ultra, it's also... For some people, running 10km is like running for an hour or an hour and a half, it seems like far beyond their physical and mental limits and skills.
01:00:12
Speaker
and I think just go and try, try to get wherever you can, and if you're really interested, then you'll find out, and if it doesn't really interest you anymore, just don't do it, and just stop after this first try, but try to explore, try to explore how far you can go, and maybe you are the type of person that maybe, if you're running a little bit,
01:00:39
Speaker
more that you can run some hours, so you can run some distance and you think, okay, but can I go on? Can I go further? And just this little bit, going a little bit further is very interesting. And it doesn't matter how much distance is, it doesn't matter how long it is, it's just this going to the other side, you know, of what you know, or what you think are your
01:01:07
Speaker
mental and physical limitations. Because the mind is something very interesting, the human mind is something very interesting, and the human mind is protecting the human body, let's say. So, the mind, if you go to the direction of exhaustion or to your physical limits, then the mind will protect your body
01:01:35
Speaker
Like by saying, no, no, no, you're going to hurt yourself very much, or it's not good for your health, or it's not good for this or that. So it's all kind of excuses your mind will give you to avoid this physical situation. But it's just very interesting to get here and to just go a little bit further and to have this
01:02:02
Speaker
accomplishment, or to find out how it works, or just curiosity or whatever, you know, it's interesting to learn, to learn about yourself. Yeah. Empowering, I think it is when you go beyond those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, ultra, ultra, the Latin word of ultra means literally on the other side. Yeah. If you say ultra river, it means on the other side of the river. So
01:02:29
Speaker
Ultra, if you see Ultra as to go to the other side of what is comfortable for you, or what is doable for you, or what is attainable for you, whatever, then it makes your world a little bit wider, a little bit bigger, or your vision a little bit wider or bigger. And this is just interesting. It's just interesting. It's not necessary, but it's just interesting.
Injury, Recovery, and Future in Ultra Running
01:02:57
Speaker
Yeah. So what's next for you then? What have you got on the agenda for the rest of the year? No races for the moment because I'm coming back from a very long lasting injury on my knees. I did too many elevation changes for a long time. And I'm just taking a big bit of a rest and doing a lot of climbing, rock climbing, mountaineering, and then we'll come back in a way or not. I think it will come back.
01:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you, MiG. Thank you very much. Yeah, very enlightening and very philosophical in parts. Thank you. Yes, yes, yes. Where can people get hold of your book in the spell of the Barclay then? And how do we connect it to the book? Bloof republished it and I think in most bookstores it will be available in the UK. And there's a lot of possibilities to order it online.
01:03:58
Speaker
let's say all kind of, or not making any publicity, but I think you can have it literally anywhere online. Yes. And how do people connect with you? You're on social media, you have a website? Well, if you if you just check my name, yes, in social media, you can find but I'm not I'm not selling the book, let's say it's my
01:04:22
Speaker
I'm just writing it. Yes, well, I can confirm it's a fantastic read. I read it in two sittings. So, you know, if you're interested in sparkling and finding out about ultra-reading, then do do give the book a read. So thank you very much for your time. It's been fascinating. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, to be in your show. Yes.