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Jacob Puzey on Balancing Ambition and Well-Being While Keeping the Heart of Running Alive
35 Plays16 hours ago
On today’s episode of Just In Stride, we sit down with Jacob Puzey, ultra-runner, coach, race director, and one of the most grounded voices in the endurance community. Jacob has built a life around running, not just through the races he’s tackled, but through the athletes he guides and the communities he helps grow.
In this conversation, Jacob shares how he approaches training, balance, and purpose — and why running continues to be the place he reconnects with himself. It’s an honest, refreshing look at what it means to build a life around movement, meaning, and showing up every day.
If you’re someone who runs for more than just the miles, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
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Thanks for tuning in to the Just In Stride Podcast. I truly appreciate you taking the time to listen and I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Please take a minute after this to rate and review our show on Apple Podcasts. With your feedback we’ll be able to make the show even better and it’ll help us reach new listeners too. You can also find us on Instagram @justinstridepod and YouTube @justinstridepod for all the latest episodes and updates. Glad you came along for the ride with Just In Stride!
Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Sponsorships
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Justin Stride podcast. I'm your host, Justin Pugliese. If you love endurance sports, you've definitely come to the right place. On this show, we'll talk to athletes, coaches, and professionals who can help us reach our true potential.
00:00:18
Speaker
Being a student of distance running for over 10 years and interviewing people in the sport for the last five, I've learned a ton, but there's always more to discover. Everyone has a story and I know you'll resonate with each of our guests as we embark on this new journey together.
00:00:34
Speaker
Join us at home, on the road, or while you run. Together, we'll have some fun. So follow along on Instagram at Just In Stride Pod and your favorite podcast platform and prepare to be inspired.
00:00:47
Speaker
Come along for the ride with Just In Stride. This episode is presented by our friends at Exact Nutrition, a tasty and healthy way to fuel your body before, during, and after a solid training session.
00:01:00
Speaker
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00:01:13
Speaker
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00:01:26
Speaker
Get 15% off your order with code JUSTINSSTRIDE at exactnutrition.com. We're also supported by our friends at Lagoon, the experts in deep restorative sleep, the ultimate recovery tool for your training.
00:01:41
Speaker
When I spoke with Ryan Hurley, the founder of Lagoon on episode 37 of the podcast, I learned just how important the right pillow is for optimal sleep and performance. After taking their two minute quiz and finding my perfect match, I finally started waking up refreshed and ready to tackle my goals. Now, Lagoon is offering 15% off your first purchase with the code STRIDE.
00:02:04
Speaker
So head to lagoon sleep.com and see for yourself why better sleep leads to better running.
Guest Introduction: Jacob Pusey
00:02:10
Speaker
On today's episode of Justin's Stride, we sit down with Jacob Pusey, ultra runner, coach, race director, and one of the most grounded voices in the endurance community.
00:02:20
Speaker
Jacob has built a life around running, not just through the races he's tackled, but through the athletes he's guided and the communities he helps grow. In this conversation, Jacob shares how he approaches training, balance and purpose, and why running continues to be a place he reconnects with himself.
00:02:37
Speaker
It's an honest, refreshing look at what it means to build a life around movement, meaning and showing up every day. If you're someone who runs for more than just the miles, this is an episode won't want to miss.
00:02:50
Speaker
Hey, Jacob, welcome
Life and Running: Balancing Act
00:02:52
Speaker
to Justin's Drive podcast. I appreciate you coming on today. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been a while. Yeah, not our first chat. It's been many years. um So I did some digging.
00:03:04
Speaker
It was on my last part. It was my old podcast. I won't mention the name. um We're all just in stride now. But I don't know if 48 has a significance for you.
00:03:15
Speaker
But the last episode that you were on on that podcast was number 48. And guess which number this one will be? but I'm guessing 48. Yeah.
00:03:27
Speaker
48. As crazy as that sounds, this was like meant to be in some way. And I swear I didn't check up the numbers. I just looked it up two minutes ago. So um keep that in mind. If you see 48 now, it's got some kind of significance in our lives. So yeah, just thought I'd throw that out there to start. All right.
00:03:45
Speaker
Now i'm going to be thinking about, you know, numbers. Yeah, yeah. It's like when you say, you know, someone brings a yellow card to your attention and all of a sudden you see yellow cards everywhere kind of thing. Yeah. So are things going for you recently?
00:03:58
Speaker
What's going on? um For the most part, things are good. Yeah, just finished um our 24th of 25 trail running events across Canada. We have ah a bonus event this this weekend in Ontario at a cidery, Slabtown Cider. And so that'll be kind of ah the finale for our 2025 season for five peaks trail running.
00:04:25
Speaker
Um, and believe that's the 27th season of, of trail running across Canada. Um, so, so yeah, it's, uh, it's been busy, um, and already opened registration for, for next year. So that's good. I'm coming along. Um, on the professional side, that's how things are.
00:04:46
Speaker
Um, on the family side, things are good.
Family Involvement in Running Events
00:04:50
Speaker
Kids are healthy. and i' am I'm ah probably a lot slower than I was the last time we talked.
00:04:59
Speaker
As am I. Yeah, I'm not running nearly as much as I was. i I wouldn't say I'm completely done competing, but I think since we last talked, the...
00:05:13
Speaker
The two most notable running achievements have been won a beer mile at my friend's wedding a couple of years ago in Flagstaff. um I felt pretty proud, you know, coming down, for going up altitude and winning in the beer mile. And I won a dog race, a 20 mile dog race. So so oh what does that mean? You competed against dogs or you raced your dog?
00:05:37
Speaker
Uh, my dog ran alongside me or I ran alongside my dog. And so there was a 20 mile race, but there was a dog category. And so I guess I didn't even take the boo and my dog won the 20 mile race against other dogs. Um, so yeah, since you and I last spoke, those are, those are probably my two greatest running achievements.
Fun Races vs. Ultra Runs
00:05:55
Speaker
I'm probably at the top of the list now, right? Yeah, they're both, uh, they're both pretty fun. I realized, you know, I, like, well, I thought I liked ultra runs because, um, I liked aid stations and I liked the camaraderie and I was like, man, I'd never actually done a beer mile. It's like, man, if you you only have to run 400 meters between aid stations and then you're done in like less than 10 minutes, that's, that's a lot more enjoyable than, you know, suffering for 24 hours, you know?
00:06:23
Speaker
Exactly. Short and sweet. That's awesome. So these races, you traveling for each one or you're, you have people station, like will you travel to Ontario for the last one or? I won't make it out to that one. I i would say I'm probably at about half of them.
00:06:39
Speaker
um a um i live I live in interior British Columbia, and so i'm I'm a few hours away from most of our races in Alberta, between three and six hours away. And then I'm a little further away from our races in BC, which are more in the Vancouver area.
00:07:01
Speaker
um But
Trail Running Series and Community Engagement
00:07:03
Speaker
Honestly, i i didn't I didn't think I'd be attending as many of the events as I as i have, but my kids just really love them. that's like you know That's what they ask the beginning of each week. like is there Is there a five-week race this weekend? It's like, well, it's nine hours one year, it's three or six hours the other way. and and so a big part is they just they like to do it, and there's nothing like that in our community. and so we We go and do that. They just really love the community. They love
00:07:33
Speaker
we have helping out. They like, my son likes breaking, like going into the back of my truck and pulling out the boxes. And then he likes breaking down the boxes after we unload things. And so feel like I'm teaching them a little bit about how to work, but also, you know, um how to, how to interact with people. My daughter loves like checking people in and like using her highlighter and use showing that she knows how to what alphabetical order is and stuff like that. So they both really enjoy that. And then they they enjoy doing the kids races and stuff. And so,
00:08:03
Speaker
yeah i I'm at most of them, but we do have, I guess you'd call them
Running as a Community Experience
00:08:07
Speaker
a regional manager, a regional race director in each in each region. and They're all great. they don't They don't need me there. We've got awesome volunteer coordinators and other people in like key positions, course managers. so that they don't I don't need to be at most of them, but I i like to be at them.
00:08:25
Speaker
My goal is not to micromanage. My goal is to be there as my kid's dad or like as just one of the volunteers and it's, it's honestly like, I know, I feel like I'm succeeding when people
Coaching Services and Podcast Acknowledgments
00:08:38
Speaker
don't have a clue who I am when I'm like going to like grab a bib for my kids to sign up for the kids race. And they're like, excuse me, sir, you need to sign the waiver. And like okay, i I'll do that. oop Hey, you're no exception, right? it's No, I love it. Like, it's like, all right, whoever taught you this role as a volunteer, like you listened well, you know, so it's good.
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's good to be like a fly on the wall at times, I guess. But it's cool that you can now wrap in your passion, few of your passions anyways, and like show your kids the sport through that too, right? Like...
00:09:12
Speaker
Combining the two is probably a pretty nice feeling. You know, like off to work kind of thing, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I i feel like I'm working all the time, but i'm I'm glad that I get to do it with my kids. And honestly, the only complaint is that I don't let them like, like have screen time in the, in the car while we're driving and stuff. And there's like, why can't we like play games and watch movies all the whole time? It's like, cause we're driving through national parks on the way there. Like we, you should have your, you know, head out the, the window looking at the mountains and stuff and so that's about the only complaint i get so far but for the most part it's like we they enjoy it and don't know when i when i coached before i had kids i i was really worried about what that might look like like as a parent uh because i i had a lot of kids who were really good but some of the kids that that came in really good it seemed like
00:10:08
Speaker
it was in large part because the parents like were pushing them but then like when it came time for them to you know decide how bad they wanted it they usually didn't have it whereas the kids that came in and like learned to love it and and weren't being forced to do it they they they they enjoyed it and then they they were able to make more progress and so i i was really hesitant to like push running on my kids and especially given that it's like my livelihood and so like i i'm just really grateful that they they're the ones asking me can we go to these races versus the other way around? Because if, if it came to the point where it was like, you know, we don't want to get up early and we don't want to go and do this, I probably wouldn't attend as often. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't, the wouldn' yes, it's my job, but I, I, like I said, I, I trust the people who are running the show on like boots on the ground. And, uh, but the fact that my kids love it to me is like, um,
00:11:05
Speaker
that's maybe not not just the greatest praise, but it's like the the greatest Google review you can get is when when your little kids are like begging you, like, can we spend all weekend in a car so we can go do a 3K run, you know? Yeah.
00:11:17
Speaker
Go running and stuff. Yeah. Be outside in nature. Right. So um you find that like you mentioned, you know, the the phone time and stuff like that. do you find that that's challenging because it's so far from how you grew up?
00:11:32
Speaker
Oh, like the the screen time. Yeah, like it's it's a different world in which kids live in right now. And and I saw something just recently about that. And now, like, it just by kind of going that way, with like, even though that's, that's where kids are now, with the screens, a lot of them are anyways, they lose the other skills, you know, that they yeah they take from touching and feeling and Yeah, you know, when when I was a kid, I played street hockey, soccer after like any excuse to not do my homework. I'd be outdoors, you know?
00:12:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I really do my best. And I mean, ah it's not like I have a sub stack on parenting and i'm I'm one thing you will never hear from me is unsolicited advice on how to parent or or how to or how to be in a successful relationship, because those are two things that I'm not an expert at. um But ah read a lot about parenting and and like I said I worked in education and and and have coached for you know decades and um I I really try to to not force not force my kids into this you know the digital age obviously I want them to be competent and and know how to use those tools um yeah I also I do try hard to to make sure that
00:12:55
Speaker
the first thing they do when they come home from school isn't just sit in front of the TV. And, and it doesn't take much. Like my, my son seven. he walks through the door and, and he unless, unless he sees the TV or unless it's on, which it rarely is, it's like he, he wants to go ride his bike, you know? So, so the only thing I have to say is like, just make sure you put your helmet on, yeah which is different than when I was a kid. Cause I don't even think anyone wore helmets then, but like, yeah,
00:13:24
Speaker
that's that's me being the responsible parent is like, yeah, just just make sure you wear your helmet. When do I have to be back? Well, when it starts getting dark, you know? like And some people, like, that freaks people out, you know? Like, I have bears in my neighborhood.
00:13:36
Speaker
if we have sheep. We have deer and stuff like that. And at the same time, it's like, I had rattlesnakes. i had I had lots of scary things, you know? But, like, I think society will be scary if if kids quit being kids, you know, like the, and they grow up to not how know how to interact with one another or how to ride their bikes or walk down to the end of the street and knock on someone's door and ask if they want to go hang out and stuff. So, so yeah, I try really hard to take my kids from, from using screens.
00:14:10
Speaker
That was that was a big one. Hey, the, the old, the old knock on the door, you know, like I love that one. Yeah. I still have a, I have a friend that lives. No, they don't. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:22
Speaker
Sorry, you were saying about your friend? Yeah, know. I have a friend that lives not too just down the street from my parents now. And like I'll go for a run. And then on my way back, I'll just knock on his door if I see his car in the driveway. Like unannounced, you know?
00:14:35
Speaker
And it kind of has this nostalgia to it that I like, you know? Yeah. I think it's good skill. like Because a lot of times like people act like I should be texting, like that the parents should be coordinating these these play dates or whatever they call them. It's like, you just...
00:14:51
Speaker
randomly see kids that are on the street and you're like, hey, do you want to go hang out? Want to go build a fort? Want to go do this or that? um Like we were walking my dog yesterday and my son found bark from a a birch tree. He told me that it was birch bark, you know, and how to use it and stuff like that. And he's like, dad, look, this is like paper. We can bring it home and make something out of it. And it's and hey, can we stay here and just like build a fire and like, can we sleep here tonight? You know, so it's says like, that's how I want my kids to grow up. I,
00:15:18
Speaker
and ah And I feel like as soon as you remove the the devices from their site, like they, they're hardwired. We all are to like, actually like love being in nature and that tactile experience like you were describing. So that's what that's I try really hard to to do for my kids.
00:15:36
Speaker
Awesome. I'll take that advice. I like that. I like that a lot. um Can we just maybe go back? i know we probably went over it in our last conversation, but just for anyone who doesn't know you, like,
00:15:47
Speaker
we're talking about growing up and and where we grew up and stuff. And can you share a bit about that and and maybe how you found the sport of running? Yeah. um I've honestly kind of lived all over, so it it'll it'll take a long time to explain where I grew up, but I i was actually born in the four corners of the United States. So where New Mexico, Arizona, utah and Colorado meet.
00:16:09
Speaker
I was was born in New Mexico. um And then shortly thereafter, we moved to the other side of New Mexico on the panhandle of Texas. And so I grew up there until I was about 12.
00:16:26
Speaker
um My family then moved from there to rural Oregon. We just moved from like farm town to farm town. My dad always worked around agriculture. And so we like actually lived on a farm when I was born and then he was building ethanol plants. So like,
00:16:43
Speaker
turning corn and into alcohol um and then like not for human consumption but for vehicle consumption and uh right and then uh let's see we moved up to oregon uh and they're my parents are still there on the on the columbia river um just really fertile area so some of the best watermelons in the world but but honestly like everything grows there. i love it. Amazing.
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah. So, so i just went from farm town to farm town. I grew up loving basketball and and thinking that that was like what I wanted to do as far as like an organized sport. But, but even before I started playing organized sports, like I i lived on my bike. Like i I feel like I, I lived like the most ideal in childhood. Like i there, there were basically just two boundaries, which were these two major highways. And it was basically like,
00:17:36
Speaker
just don't cross those roads, but you can kind of go anywhere else. And so it was like kilometers in any direction that we could go from yeah a young age. and And the rules were basically just like come home at a dark and we weren't supposed to swear, but we still did that. And so like, but we did make it back in, you know, by dark. And then by the time I started running competitively,
00:18:01
Speaker
a I guess I started running in middle school, but it was to get in shape for basketball. And then i kind of just kind of fell in love with that process. I wasn't, I was young for my grade and underdeveloped. Like I was a late bloomer. And so it took quite a few years of running to like actually like see the, um the fruits of my labors. But, but, but I honestly, I think it kind of helped that it, I wasn't like an instant success. It took, it, it took just like that,
00:18:32
Speaker
daily grind and just really incremental progress and kind of falling in love with that that that helped me like truly fall in love with running versus like just this you know immediate success um so yeah i i was okay in high school um um just really wanted to the really the only motivator that i had to to go to university was that I wanted to run at the next level. And so like, i i really wanted to get a, an athletic scholarship to run.
00:19:08
Speaker
i didn't earn one. um But I, so I went to a school, ah junior college that had a really good cross country team and walked onto their team and ran there for two years. That was in Southeastern Idaho. And and we, that team won the NJCAA national championships three years in a row for cross country.
00:19:29
Speaker
Um, then I moved to Panama for a few years. Um, and then, ah and then I, transferred to Hawaii, um, and, and ran there for three years and ran and studied there for three years, moved back to Oregon and taught and coached at my alma mater.
00:19:47
Speaker
I, our team in Hawaii, um, only, we only had a cross country team, so we didn't have a track team. And so I'd still run during the the spring, but, uh, I coached the high school track team.
00:19:59
Speaker
uh then on the north shore of oahu um and kind of fell in love with coaching and then moved back to my alma mater and took over for my high school coach did that for like eight years then went back to grad school in flagstaff and and kind of wanted to take my running to the next level i had continued to in college i i still felt like ten k was too short and so like at the end of my yeah at the end of my cross country season my senior year um in of the university cross country i ran the honolulu marathon and i think i was the top american at that event and ran all right and realized i might actually be good at this and so i i started trying to qualify for the olympic trials somewhere along the way i i ran a 50k like as a training run for a trail 50k as a training run for a marathon and then fell in love with
00:20:56
Speaker
trail and ultra running and um yeah just kind of kept kept doing it uh oddly went from like not even being good enough to qualify for the oregon state track meet in high school to like having brands initially giving me gear and then like paying me to wear their stuff and paying me to promote their stuff and and then i simultaneously got into race directing so those same brands would sponsor my events and So I went from ah nobody, i still don't consider myself anything, but like ah like like someone who I don't even think most people consider athletic to like all of a sudden, like i by some people's standards, I was like a professional. And it was, like I guess, in ah in a roundabout sort of way, I achieved that childhood dream of like being a ah pro athlete for a few years. and
00:21:47
Speaker
and Yeah, over the last few years, I've phased out from
00:21:53
Speaker
i'm um'm I'm going to say that I was more of a run fluencer than instead a pro athlete, but like I was able to make some money and and get some gear and stuff like that for for more than a decade. and I've i've kind of phased out from that space and from the coaching space to to just being a full-time race director. and now i Now I direct about 25 trail runs across Canada.
00:22:18
Speaker
And maybe maybe it was ah it was a maybe a different time when that was possible, right? Like in today's world, like with how popular running is, yeah who knows if those opportunities come up. Do you think the landscape's totally changed now, right?
00:22:35
Speaker
for Absolutely, yeah. For running, right? Yeah. Yeah. ah I think the the the weird thing was I – Yeah, it really was like this tipping point, like a like a perfect storm, so to speak, where um social media was just beginning to be a thing around the time that I was like chasing those trials qualifiers and and also around the time that I started trail and ultra running. And so it's like I ran a race and beat some guys that were like
00:23:10
Speaker
were good and, and they are good and they, and they were kind of considered like legends in the sport. and it was like, Oh wow. And, and, and you ran it on this course that other legends have run and you, you ran faster than so-and-so. And so all of a sudden it was like, there's this sport and this culture that i am completely ignorant of. And I just approached it as like, I just wanted to get a long run in that that was assisted and and accidentally won the race. And then all of a sudden it was like these opportunities opened up to me.
00:23:39
Speaker
to run for brands like Pearl Izumi and Brooks and, um, and eventually ultra. Um, and again, just a serendipitous thing where my high school or my, one of my college cross country teammates was, was the founder of ultra. And so like, just so happened that when he's finally started producing shoes, like we were slinging shoes out of the trunk of our kinesiology professors, uh,
00:24:04
Speaker
ford thunderbird like at at the xterra world trails run you know and just just random stuff like that that just kind of came together and and gave me opportunities to
00:24:16
Speaker
to keep doing this because i yeah i i mean and at the time the qualifier for the trials was wasn't anywhere near what it is today i think it was like and this was pre super shoes but this was like think it was 222 and then it went 218 and then think it's now like 216 so yeah
00:24:33
Speaker
so yeah But time-wise, i wouldn't have even been able to be in the mix. but So it definitely was just like a a really, really good opportunity that I ah kind of pinched myself. And I'm surprised that that those opportunities presented themselves. i mean i Yeah.
00:24:54
Speaker
I obviously went to school to to do other things and thought that I would be doing a lot different things professionally. i I still feel like I use that education. I just use it differently from an entrepreneur perspective versus like an academic um perspective. so
00:25:13
Speaker
It kind of comes back to this thing where I believe that Like even for myself, if I go back 10 years or eight years, like there was a few events that I did, like a long distance triathlon and stuff, but I'm happy I did it then, you know, when I, when I could do it, I could still could do it, but just life was different then, you know, like single and all the time in the world to do like, as an example where you could just train and go. And um so I really like, think it's looking back, it's like,
00:25:44
Speaker
You took the opportunity that was given to you in the moment and that was the perfect window for you to do it. and And you must be happy that you did, you know, because you got to live through that.
00:25:54
Speaker
um So what what did you think you would be doing when you were going through the education and, and you know running while going to school and and stuff like that? What did you think where did you think you would be?
00:26:06
Speaker
um Honestly, like when I when i started undergrad um before moving to Panama, i I thought I would probably go into law school or go to law school and be a lawyer.
00:26:20
Speaker
um
00:26:23
Speaker
I read like every John Christian book that ever came out and ah and I loved To Kill a Mockingbird and, you know, any any sort of legal drama. and i usually just eat it up, whether it's a book or a movie or whatever. So I've i've always been that way.
00:26:37
Speaker
um i have... ah probably a delusional sense of justice and ah or an idyllic sense of justice. And so that was my plan. And then I moved to Panama and I experienced um a life that was so different from anything I'd ever experienced. I was living off like a dollar a day and and I was living well relative to most of the people. um there aside from like there was just this huge disparity of wealth too there were some like uber rich people and then just you know literally like across a canal they were just uh very very impoverished people who were you know digging muscles out of sewage and you know uh living in half of almost nothing and then when i learned about you know the hundred years of colonization that occurred there and creation of the canal and
00:27:34
Speaker
um the role that my country, the the United States of America had played both in creating that that canal, but also um occupying the canal zone, propping up a dictator and then changing their policy on drugs and going in and extracting him and um the the terror and the violence that those people experienced at the hands of you know my countrymen just really like turned
00:28:05
Speaker
things on their head for me. um And i I was also fortunate during that time to to live in villages with predominantly indigenous people. In fact, I like learned Spanish. like It was like the lingua franca between me and these indigenous people where it was like they didn't speak English, I didn't speak Spanish, they spoke they spoke Tulegay, one of the indigenous languages spoken in there. and And so like between, between us, we would speak, we would try and speak Spanish. And and that's, that's really like, even though i grew up in New Mexico and stuff and I was around it culturally and things like that, like I, I gained a lot more confidence in my Spanish because it was like, okay, they don't know it as well. Like it's not their native language. It's not my native language. And so we were able to do it that way. And um yeah, I mean, I got,
00:28:53
Speaker
I got dengue when I was there and got nursed back to health from like these people who could hardly even like speak my language and I couldn't speak their language, but there was this shared humanity that we experienced and had some other rough experiences, both health wise, but also just like really intense violence.
00:29:15
Speaker
And um yeah, I, I, I came back and
00:29:22
Speaker
decided to study anthropology rather than rather than law just because i i I felt like there were so many stories that hadn't been shared, that that history is often you know the story of the victors, but like there there's this knowledge and this wealth that's held by so many you know experts around the world that are that hold this knowledge in their indigenous languages about the world, about the the natural environment. So I, I kind of went down this path of anthropology, cultural anthropology, then linguistic anthropology, and then like cultural ecology and just, you know, trying to better understand the world through the eyes of, of people who, who have experienced it firsthand versus just trying to homogenize everything into these, you know, world languages and world religions and monocultures in terms of species and like,
00:30:22
Speaker
that kind of thing. So anyway, way different than race directing. but ah Yeah. but um yeah But that was the path I went down and I, I did that for more than a decade. Like i um one of the reasons I moved back to Oregon was because I had done some work with a a, an indigenous community in Northeastern Oregon and continued to do work with them to, to finally put their history,
00:30:53
Speaker
um in writing in in English so that it had validity in the eyes of you know the the law of the of the West. and um But also just to share a different perspective than than that of the the colonizers. and And that was really fulfilling work.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. And did that like, would you say, i mean, that it it impacted you in a way to study something different, but Like, did it do something to you as a person having lived that experience? Did you come out of that yeah differently or or seeing the world in a different way?
00:31:30
Speaker
Yeah. um I mean, i I was fortunate to grow up um with parents and in in in communities where I, in in in some cases, I was a minority even growing up, whether that was, you know, ethnically or religiously or racially. i We joked, ah the block that we grew up in, in New Mexico, like my best friend's name was Jesus, my other neighbor's name was Mateo or Matthew, and then we had Mark.
00:32:01
Speaker
um So we basically had like, and then and his neighbor was Judas. So we had like the 12 apostles on my block and they were all, of you know, they're all Mexican American Catholics. um And and it was it was just fun that like i was you know I was the minority in my neighborhood growing up ah as as an Anglo. um and And so, yeah, I had experiences growing up throughout my life where I was exposed to different cultures and and and different worldviews. But i think I think even with that, like spending that time in in another country and one that my that my country had occupied and just just having that
00:32:42
Speaker
that different perspective really helped me. Um, and then it just kind of opened my eyes to, um, yeah, the kind of person that I want to be and the kind of life that I want to lead. And, um, from the time I was a young kid, you know, people, people fed me, fed my ego and told me, you know, you're a natural born leader and you're going to go on and do great things and things like that. And, and I learned,
00:33:08
Speaker
um in those places like that, the in Panama in particular, like the, I felt safest and I felt most fulfilled when I was there, a not teaching people English and not trying to like share any sort of message with them. But it was actually like when when it would rain and it would flood and and we'd just go and like help people like drain their houses from water and then go back in with pickaxes and just try and clear channels for the water to come through and stuff like that. Like that was so much more fulfilling for me than, than anything that I ever said ever. And, and, and a lot of times it was because I didn't have the words to, to share how I felt, but I, you know, that there were fellow humans that, that were suffering or that needed something and, and any return, you know,
00:33:59
Speaker
they'd feed me and, and they take care of me. And, and so, yeah, I, I realized that I didn't want to be someone in the spotlight or someone who like, who, who hold in some sort of hierarchy of leadership. Like I wanted to be, i wanted to serve whatever community I lived in. And, and I feel like that, yeah, that totally led me down a different path than, you know, trying to be,
00:34:28
Speaker
a politician or, or, or, you know, some, some big corporate lawyer. I actually, a lot of what I tried to do with the community that i worked with in in Oregon was like try and use whatever skills that I had gained to, to help again, this community, right, right. Their history so that in the, in the court of law, they're,
00:34:52
Speaker
their claims for land and for artifacts and and for the remains of their, their ancient ones of of their ancestors. Like they would have legitimate claims by, you know, Western, um, laws to those, um, And that that that was very fulfilling for me. Like, yes, I could advocate, but I could do all of that behind behind my pen, you know, behind a computer, and I didn't have to do it in ah in an outward facing way. It was just, it was really fulfilling. Yeah, so that makes sense. i That's cool.
00:35:23
Speaker
Yeah. And sometimes like the biggest messages are nonverbal, right? Like your actions and your actions and like a smile could could also have such so such an impact on people.
00:35:39
Speaker
Even just walking down the street, you know, you can just smile at somebody and it just changes the trajectory of of their day maybe or something, you know? So. yeah Absolutely.
00:35:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny, like being, well, being here in Switzerland, I can't speak like Swiss German all the time. So, I mean, it's not to that degree, but I do a lot of work sometimes just sign language and and some broken broken language. And, you know, you can still be kind and and show you care, even though you don't know like all the words or don't have all the words to to share. So i think that's...
00:36:14
Speaker
That's a good message for sure. um And so running was always like alongside this, like you had kind of mental where you're learning and then you also had the physical, which was the running, um I guess, very goal oriented then, or was it more like outlet to or just a way to, you know, release, you know, to get our away from the studies a little bit, or how did that relationship look? Cause you, you know, you definitely kept it up over, over time, you know?
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah, um in in high school, well, in middle school, it was to get in shape for basketball because I was short and wanted to like be able to still make the team. So I needed to be scrappy. I needed more endurance. i ah Once I began kind of having just a modicum of success, it was sort of like, hey, maybe I want to transition into running more full time.
00:37:10
Speaker
and And that wasn't until like grade 10. Um, and, um, but prior to that, I, I ran cross country, played basketball, but ran in the mornings before school, played basketball after school, and then ran track. And and it was kind of like during that year that I actually got really fit because I didn't ever stop training. And and I finally won my first race at the end of grade nine. Um, and it was like a super small, uneventful race, but it was like, I, i beat my other slow teammates that day, but it made me feel like really good. Um, and I made the varsity team by doing that. And, um,
00:37:44
Speaker
So there was there was a lot of outcome-based goals early on where it was like, okay, I want um i want to i want to make the traveling junior varsity team. And then it was like, I want to qualify for the district to meet, i want to which was usually top seven for junior varsity or varsity. Then it was, i want to I want to run a faster time than i want to or i want to run a personal best, so to speak.
00:38:09
Speaker
And so it was a lot of yeah, outcome-based things with the goal of like, i I want to earn a scholarship. And then the weirdest thing happened. i i didn't I didn't get a scholarship my first year in university. And then like I was planning on on going to Panama shortly after that, after my first year. And then there were delays, 9-11 happened, but there were also delays with visas and and just other things. And so like i I was able to go back another season, essentially like another another semester.
00:38:42
Speaker
and And when my coach found out that um that I had that availability, he contacted me. And I honestly hadn't done anything that previous or that summer for the first time of my life. But it was like, i knew I was leaving. i knew I wasn't going to see my brother for potentially four years. He was injured. and and And so we rode bikes like all summer, like in addition to working and doing like, you know, working 60 hours a week. But we we rode bikes every chance we could rather than run.
00:39:09
Speaker
And then my coach asked me if I wanted it. to come back and and he said, you know, we'll we'll honor your athletic or your academic scholarship. So you'll have your tuition covered and then we'll we'll we'll give you the equivalent in academic or in athletic funds. So it was like, you'll you'll come back with a full ride, which was like my dream.
00:39:25
Speaker
And I honestly had to reconsider. i was like man, I don't even know if I want to go back. i Like it it went from being something I was so passionate about, something I love so much. And I was like, so burned out by the end of track season, my freshman year that I, I,
00:39:37
Speaker
i which it's just odd to me that it was even like a consideration, like that I even had to think about it because like when he offered it, I was like, man, I i think I just want to hang out here with my brother and like, just, I want to watch him run this season. and so it was actually a hard decision to, to accept a full ride scholarship, which again, woe is me. um But um it was,
00:39:59
Speaker
It was weird when I experienced that. And then I, I didn't run at all for the the years that I was in Panama. And so it it took a while to like get that competitive drive back. And I feel like everything changed within me. Like after that time, I'd be head to head, like to potentially win a race and or earn a spot to regionals or nationals or something. and And this sounds terrible, but this is, this is just how I had experienced things.
00:40:29
Speaker
if ah if a guy from Africa or if a guy from Latin America, if I was going head to head with one of them and it was between me and them, it took me honestly like five years to like care enough to like actually like dig deep to try and beat them and, and show respect to them than to just give it to them because it was like,
00:40:45
Speaker
I'm willing to bet that you're actually like racing. And this is, I was stereotyping. It was like, I'm willing to bet you, right you're like racing to feed yourself. And I'm like, Oh, I get to live in Hawaii and they're paying me to run on a really slow team. So I was like, yeah it took me a while to like, uh, to like care about the outcomes again. Like it was, I definitely went through like this, this big shift. And so I think during that time in Hawaii, my, um,
00:41:12
Speaker
my focus definitely changed and it and it, and it, and it became a lot more about just intrinsic motivation and, and even just like, um, intrinsic, I don't know, just feeling good about who I was as a person and feeling, feeling good about, um, myself and how I was showing up for other people. Um,
00:41:32
Speaker
And so, yeah, I did continue to go on and and run and and sometimes win races, but it was, I think it was because of that shift. I don't think that this the way that I was training and and racing and pressuring myself, sorry, my dog has to go out, ah was sustainable. so um So i had to I had to make that shift and I'm glad I did because it I feel like it it made it so that I could you know, run for another 20 years.
00:42:02
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. um Was it, was it challenging for you to be away from family? It sounds like you guys are like close family.
00:42:13
Speaker
um i know you have a few, a few siblings also. Was it challenging you to be away for those, those times that you were gone? it It really was like, I, um I had shared a room with my brother, tommy for,
00:42:30
Speaker
uh, the first 18, well, the six, 16 of the first 18 years of my life. And, um, and we honestly used to like, well into our, our much older years, we, we'd like, even though we had bunk beds, we'd like, um, we draw on each other's backs, um, and often sleep on the floor. Um, and like, we, yeah, we were,
00:42:57
Speaker
we were inseparable and, ah and we went four years without seeing, and and honestly, like without even the internet was still just like coming out. Like there, there weren't really even opportunities to do long distance calls and stuff like that. So, um, that was, that was really hard for both of us, um, to not have that that time and that connection and and i think we both like struggled to sleep uh for a long time during that time and then we were both kind of concurrently experiencing stuff that was like so different than the way we were raised in in like just our small towns um just obscene violence and and poverty and stuff like that during that time so i was in panama and then He was in Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. And and then we we reunited in in Hawaii. and
00:43:52
Speaker
And that was that created a lot of calm like to have to finally have him back together. and And there was a lot of stuff that didn't even have to be spoken. We we both knew what we had seen and experienced. And yeah,
00:44:06
Speaker
yeah just running together with him in the mountains and like foraging for for fruit ah for breakfast and then spearfishing
00:44:16
Speaker
for dinner, like after practice, it was just like, okay can't think of a more idyllic life. Like we both, we both learned to make some pretty good ah beans and lentils and rice as well. So we, we and and, but it was all really healthy and and really good. so Maybe slightly different styles, but yeah, that's, a that's awesome. Just like, just raw, right? Like just being in the outdoors, and enjoying yourselves and just back to when the good old days, I guess, when you were kids.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah, it was so cool it was like it was a good time. Yeah, I mean, and and that's honestly a big motivator of why I ended up going back to Flagstaff. Like, yeah i wanted to do grad school and I wanted to train at altitude and see if I could take my running to the next level. But a big part was he was there doing grad school too, and i we just missed each other. And we wanted to our kids to grow up together and that. Yeah.
00:45:09
Speaker
um Yeah, I don't think it's a secret. He's also an excellent runner. Do you think you guys... Because it runs... like It's running in the family, let's call it. No pun intended. But do you think that you guys have a like a gift, and not like a knack for it that you were born with? Or do you think that a lot of it's just because of hard how hard you guys work to get there?
00:45:34
Speaker
um a i I think we we grew up with very active lifestyles. um And and the the odd thing is like sports sports was like something we had to beg our parents to do. Neither of our parents grew up doing really any kind of organized sport.
00:45:54
Speaker
That being said, they both like led active lifestyles, but like they weren't they weren like forcing us out the door to go hiking or skiing or to play baseball or even play catch or anything like that. It was like, we wanted to do those things and they're, they're things we learned or picked up like on the playground or like on the streets, just playing like, you know, street soccer or football games, pickup games, like just in them literally in the middle of the street, you know, with our friends and so on the abandoned fields and stuff.
00:46:26
Speaker
So I, um that being said, like, I don't think you can deny that like, a lot of stuff is genetic. And so like, he and I have freakishly high and I'm sure every one of our other siblings have freakishly high VO2 maxes that that doesn't just come from, you know, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Like, we, we are lucky that we were, we got those genes, I guess. yeah Like that's that. And it would be really
00:46:57
Speaker
arrogant and delusional of me to suggest otherwise that that somehow I had something to do with that. And so, yeah. um i do I think that a big part of it had to do though with like, we we just loved that element of adventure. Like we, as kids, we spent every waking moment like outside. Like we came home and we usually had to get hosed off. Like our my mom wouldn't let us in the house.
00:47:24
Speaker
Unless we, we like, she would have put us off fully clothed on the back porch, um, to get all the mud and dirt and grime off of us. And we, we were riding our bikes and running around and catching snakes and horned toads and frogs and lizards and everything in between, you know, and, uh,
00:47:44
Speaker
and bringing them home as pets. And so it was just like, we just we just yeah lived and loved adventure that way and and loved learning about. like So it it wasn't just like, okay, let's go try and find something. like There were other kids that we grew up with that like you know would want to like catch a toad and put a firecracker in its mouth or something like that. And we were like, no, we want to like catch a toad and like you know learn about it and like go read a book about what does it need to eat and stuff. And so it was just, we were very We are very curious and I think that's part of what led, part of why we enjoy running to this day is like it it it gives us access to a world that's in a lot of ways otherwise inaccessible to to more sedentary people. Yeah.
00:48:31
Speaker
one That's awesome. And I know your your brother Aaron's a talented golfer, so maybe the VF2 Max is helping him with that too. I follow him now. like I think he's he's great at the content he puts out. He's using his skills in a different way, which is which is great.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, we we are very fortunate that, again, I think a lot of that is genetic. And I think i think it's both nurturing nature. Like our our parents are very intense.
00:48:57
Speaker
Aaron is probably the most intense human I've ever met on in my life. And and he he taught himself out way. We did not grow up in a golf family. We did not grow up near great golf courses. And yeah.
00:49:12
Speaker
In fact, I remember I was i was directing like a youth um sports camp for this for our small little town, and and Aaron was 10 years old, and i was like, hey, you want to just come to work with me today? and And he showed up that one week, and we were doing golf, and and we were you know hitting wiffle ball, golf balls kind of thing, and you could tell that he just he was just like...
00:49:33
Speaker
wow, I love this. And and our our dad still manages a port on the on the Columbia River. And so there's there's a municipal course, nothing fancy, ah like near his office on the Columbia River. And and honestly, from like the age of 10, my brother would do his paper out and save up to buy a ah season's pass at the golf course. And he would go with my dad early in the morning and leave with my dad late at night and would just be out there and like, you know, ask other guys questions on how to play golf and learn how to play golf. But he did that like from the time he was like 10 years old and like,
00:50:09
Speaker
learned how to go and and ended up with a collection of golf clubs because he'd bet people and then earned their golf clubs. So anyway, it just funny. Cause it's like, it's not like my dad was out there taking him like, like Tiger Woods dad or anything like that. You know, it was like,
00:50:24
Speaker
my dad, right to the otherwise who wouldn't, who knows? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, we're lucky to, to have, I guess, I guess that has influenced the way that I try to parent my kids and that like, it was never shoved down our throats. In fact, it was like, we, we had to beg and we usually had to earn, you know, like buy our shoes or sign up for, you know, whatever it was never, we just didn't have the means. And that's, I think that's partially why I was motivated to, to get a scholarship as well as like,
00:50:53
Speaker
yeah, I know I should probably go to college, but who's going to pay for it? Maybe if I run fast enough, I'll be able to do that. so yeah. Yeah, big motivator for sure. I think, yeah, I was raised similarly where like,
00:51:07
Speaker
My dad didn't put me in hockey. he didn't put me in soccer. i just played outside until I asked. And then I started, think I started high school and kids were like, I'm playing on this team and that team. I'm like, whoa, like this exists. Like I had no idea.
00:51:21
Speaker
yeah I just asked my dad, was like, can I play? And he, we just bought secondhand gear to see if I liked it first. And I remember being so bad. i couldn't skate or anything. And Yeah, I think when, you when it like you said, when it comes from inside, like, so I couldn't skate, but I still showed up every practice and like knew I needed to learn how to skate. And then soon enough, I was a decent skater, you know, just so I could keep up with the game. But um it really came from within me. Like my dad didn't have to beg me to go to practice or anything like that. It was just like, I just love to play and I wanted it to play so bad. So, yeah, I can kind of relate in that in that sense. Yeah.
00:52:02
Speaker
I do want to get into your like coaching for sure, but I want to know, like where do you think the switch was for you in the running? like Did someone realize this potential in you to to do something with the sport? Or did you just realize you had the talent? like Was there a coach or someone that that kind of guided you in that sense? Yeah.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yeah. um My, I, I had some really good coaches like both basketball and, and, and running. um And I, I think the biggest thing for me, like i could pinpoint and a number of them and name them, but I think the biggest part for me was like the coaches that I guess saw potential in me, not just athletic potential, like that I wasn't just a means to an end, but like they actually treated me like I was a, like they, they, they saw that I might actually be able to do something with my life and treated me as such versus this is this annoying kid that doesn't have the skill or this is just, you know, this kid that's in the way. And because I did have, I certainly had like some, some really terrible coaches growing up as well. um
00:53:09
Speaker
But, but I mean, I, I'm still in contact with like my, my, elementary school basketball coach like from the city league like he on facebook like he he'll still comment on my stuff and say he's proud of me and it's like ah yeah that means a ton to me like he he owned a bike shop i bought my first bike or my parents bought my first bike for me from his bike shop and stuff so like the fact that you know 40 years later, i my, my elementary school coach still like sees me as the maybe the same person that he saw me as then, like someone with potential. And, and so, um, in high school, I think for me, it was actually like my, okay, I have lots of stories, but but, but so I was in middle school and I got in trouble,
00:53:55
Speaker
having my last name is sort of like naming your kid Sue. Like I got teased all the time with my last name. And for some reason, some kid moved to town and wanted to be a new kid or wanted to like, wanted to establish himself as more than just the new kid. And so he, he chose to pick on me, for my last name. And it was just like, we were playing soccer and PE and he just kept kicking me and pushed me around and like, and then he came and tried to fight me in the hall and any he called me different variations of my last name and then um and he pushed me and i was just like dude like i am not interested in fighting um i'm not a fighter umm i'm on my way to practice and and then he tackled me from behind and somehow i ended up on top of him and and and then we both got suspended and um and and so i was gonna miss um
00:54:41
Speaker
a cross country meet and I, I used my lawyer skills with the vice principal that day. And I was like, actually, if you read the handbook, I, I, I can't attend on the days that I'm technically suspended and I'm not technically suspended until Monday. So I'm going to be at the cross country meet on Saturday and then I'll, I'll miss, you know, Monday through Wednesday or whatever. And so I go to this cross country meet and, and the high school coach is there and he, and he comes up and he's like, Hey, I hear you're, you're a fighter. And I was like, I wasn't even good in middle school. I was like the,
00:55:09
Speaker
third to fifth best guy in our on our middle school team and and so the varsity high school coach comes up to me and starts talking to me and it's like hey i i hear you're i hear you're a fighter and i was like oh man you heard about that that's uh that's too bad and like well you know uh uh when you run for me was like how do you even know who i am like i i idolized the guys that he was coaching but i didn't know that the high school cross-country coach knew who i was he's like when you run for me you can't be doing that because like when when we rely on you to to be here at practice or be here for a meet and we need you to help the team out you know um we need you to show up and and and put the team you know before your own ego and i was like dude the guy tackled me from behind you know but but like the fact that the fact that he saw in me and treated me as someone of value and like someone he wanted on his team it was like that changed everything for me i In middle school, I was still, you know, I was still playing basketball and that brought along a certain type of, of friends that, uh, know, wanted to reenact stuff that we were listening to in our rap music and watching in music videos and stuff like that. And so we were doing stupid stuff that teenagers do. And it was like, it's not like I completely matured overnight, but like that, that instance, when I was 13 years old, when, when an adult that I admired and that I wanted to
00:56:30
Speaker
maybe not impressed, but i I wanted to live up to their expectations. when he When he said that to me, like, I just, I stopped doing a lot of the stupid stuff that that my friends were getting in a lot of trouble for doing. And I just got lucky that I didn't get caught doing the same stuff. And so it was like, I was able to make a a change as a person because of the way that a a guy that's now my age treated me. And I was just some insignificant 13 year old. and And honestly, from about that point on, like,
00:57:00
Speaker
i would I would run through a wall for that guy. and i did And did. And so if he said, hey, you know what we need you to do is just like get on the get on the rail and don't let anyone pass you. was like, sure. If you think I can do that, I'll do it.
00:57:17
Speaker
It's only seven and half laps. I can I can bleed through my eyes because you, you told me that I, or you told me that I could do that. So do you think I can do it? I'm going to do it. And, and it, it, yeah, it just, it gave me a lot of confidence because I didn't have confidence in myself. I was, I was at that time, I honestly, think it was like four 11 and weighed 85 pounds. I had nothing to be confident.
00:57:36
Speaker
yeah And, but the fact that he thought that I could be someone, even just a better person just made me want to be a better person.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah, somebody you respected that saw something in you and and gave you a chance, you know. um think that's super important. And yeah, it can it can change everything. you It's so funny how you remember these people in your life, um you know, a neighbor, a coach, a teacher that say things to you and it kind of it's other than your parents. And, you know, you listen to your parents and they you know teach you a lot for sure. But these these other characters that that can play such a huge part. Like you never know who's listening kind of thing, you know, um or what they're going to pick up on. So that's that's cool. Do you think this type of experience now helps you as a coach and helps you guide others in goals that they're they're trying to achieve or, of you know, raising your kids or like how you communicate?
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I, it, it certainly has been kind of like my served as like a North star for me, like to try and try and treat, um, athletes that I coach and, and just all other people, like try and see the very best in them, try and try and help them find their potential. Um,
00:59:02
Speaker
i'm I'm actually no longer at least professionally coaching anyone. Like i I have a handful of friends that I'm, or former athletes that I'm still like trying, know, provide encouragement for maybe a little bit of structure, but things just got so busy with just as my kids got older and also just as, as I took on more and more events it's just,
00:59:22
Speaker
its events year round full time now, like even though we're not actually putting on the events year round, a lot of what I do behind the scenes is like takes place in the in the off season and stuff like that. So to get ready for the next season. So so I'm not I'm not doing as much coaching, but I i guess like you said, when it comes to my kids, or even, you know, the way that I interact with, with, with people that work with me and for me, I think just treating people with respect is not just with respect, but but honestly, trying to see the very best in people is, is one of the best, the best things we can do as as people for one another and for ourselves. like
01:00:04
Speaker
I think living life... What is the word? Sorry. Go ahead. No, sorry, glitched, though. I i jumped ahead. Sorry. You can continue that. um I mean, living life, acting and assuming as though others are threats to you is is no way to live. And also living life, yeah, just just thinking the worst of others, that they that they're either out to get you or that...
01:00:33
Speaker
or that they don't like you or even thinking that they're thinking about you. It's just like, who has the energy for that? You know? So I, I genuinely like, I, I think one thing I've learned from running is, you know, like you, you can, you have an opportunity every single day to just put your absolute best foot forward and, and, and show up as your best self. That may not be the same self as it was yesterday or a week ago, or,
01:01:01
Speaker
a year ago, sometimes that means it's a better version, but sometimes it's like, like right now, my, my calf is in a knot. I, I'm going to try and take my dog for a walk today. That's like, that's my goal, you know, but that, but if that's the absolute best thing that I can do, it's like, I'm going to enjoy it. I'm going to try and bring my kids and we're going to try and do it in a pretty place. And I try and point out the, the beauty versus, you know, treating other people poorly because I don't feel a hundred percent like, and so,
01:01:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's kind of how i i want to live my life. And I do think a big part of that has to do with the way that my coaches and mentors treated me.
01:01:42
Speaker
what what do you What do you think the, I know you mentioned potential, but what does that word mean to you? And how do you think people can achieve that?
01:01:53
Speaker
That's a good question. um i I think potential means our the best version of ourselves, whether that's athletically um or professionally. that's That's really vague, but I i do think you know it's it's just trying to,
01:02:17
Speaker
I guess, leaving no stone unturned and things like that. But I i think I think there also has to be,
01:02:26
Speaker
i think there needs to be a balance. I know some people think that, you know, anyone who is is a high achiever is never going to have full balance, but I do think having been in that world of high achievement, both as a coach and as an athlete and as an academic, but also just around other people.
01:02:45
Speaker
um i don't think it's an excuse to be an asshole. I don't, I don't, I know that may sound, you know, really direct, but like, um, being hangry is, is someone's own responsibility to take care of that. So it's like, just because you're intense in your training and you're choosing to under nourish yourself, doesn't give you an excuse to be mean or rude to other people.
01:03:08
Speaker
Um, or, um, you know, caring a lot about your sleep doesn't mean that you need to like treat everyone else as though they're, know,
01:03:19
Speaker
harming you because you know they may not understand that you need eight to 12 hours of sleep and and and that they may not have the same goals as you do and stuff like that. So I so i think i think our goals and and trying to achieve our potential can and should um help influence how we shape our lives and even who we surround ourselves by. but But in in most instances, we are going to have to live with other people like whether that's a teammate or a coach or a partner or or our children or our neighbors or our colleagues and stuff like that and it's like sometimes people get so focused on a goal um as a runner that they they they think that that's an excuse to just like ignore everything and everyone else around them and um
01:04:15
Speaker
And I don't think that's healthy. I don't look like one. I don't think it's good for that individual, but I don't think it's good for that individual's relationships and long-term, even in the short term, that's, that's actually going to probably end up harming their, their, their ultimate goals of what they want to achieve athletically, because it's like, eventually you're going to lose your coach. You're going to lose your teammates. You're you're going to lose your friends and your family. And, and, and who wants that? Like, like,
01:04:40
Speaker
is is running a fast time at some arbitrary distance, like really worth it? Even if it comes with a paycheck, like, is it really worth sacrificing having
01:04:54
Speaker
real, true, meaningful relationships in your life that that aren't just transactional with people who actually love you for more than how fast you can run? Yeah.
01:05:07
Speaker
Regardless of the result, right? Yeah. Um, um yeah no that's great i mean yeah at what cost does it come at why are you doing it what i yeah i mean i've never been like i've ran a pretty quick marathon but never like a super elite athlete or anything like that but always kept it light you know just yeah go out and have fun and if you run a fast time like 245 ain't bad but it's not like nothing crazy you know but ah yeah, always just have fun with it. Like that's always my, have a few goals and the last one's always enjoy myself because yeah. Otherwise what's the point, you know? Exactly.
01:05:49
Speaker
Yeah. um I do want to talk about this, that is this ah run series that is now like your, that's your, your business, you know, that's your that's your everything right now with 25 races on the schedule and planning for years ahead. And um maybe just dive into that a little bit and,
01:06:06
Speaker
and the evolution of it and maybe some challenges that you faced. I know, I think the last time I spoke to you wasn't on a podcast, but I know it was kind of coming out of COVID and, and, uh, registrations and stuff like that was part of, you know, a struggle and stuff. So, um, I like you explained, but yeah, for sure.
01:06:26
Speaker
Um, yeah, so I, I, um, I own and direct, uh, 25 trail running events across Canada,
01:06:36
Speaker
under a company called five peaks adventures and so we have 20 of those events are are our series events and so they're intro to trail running events um so most events have between three and five different distances um and we usually have between most of these series events we usually have between like four and and 800 people at at some of these events or at at at all 20 of these events. It's usually usually closer to five or 600, but you know, there's ahs a couple, maybe one or two that's just under 500 and a few that are over 800. At any rate, they're across Canada, they're organized regionally. So we have five events in each region.
01:07:19
Speaker
And so the way we set it up is like, there's, it's like five unique different events per region and and they each come with like their own unique swag item. Um, so that's 20 of the events and they, they range a distance from 1k kids race up to around 21 K. So around the half marathon, because it's trail, we don't actually call them.
01:07:42
Speaker
we We don't have like standardized distances cause it's pretty tough to make like an exactly a 5k or a 10k or whatever. So we we have distance categories. We have sport, which is our, our shorter, like five to eight maybe 10 K and then we have Enduro, which is, you know, between eight and and potentially 15 K. And then we have a grit, which is closer to that half marathon distance, but it may be between 16 and 25 K. So it's, it's quite a range. We obviously try and have like the maps and the distances published as soon as possible, but it's just, you know, do you want to do the one that's going to take you more than an hour or maybe a couple hours, or do you want to do the one that's you're going to,
01:08:23
Speaker
you know get done in 30 minutes or something like that um and then we also we try to make it in a lot of ways it's it's an intro to trail running for a lot of people so whether they're coming from the roads to the trails or or maybe they've never even run before We even have a hiking group where it's like they they get to start at the very beginning. Like as soon as we get the arch up, it's like as long as you agree to just not run a step, you can you can do you can have this marked course. You can do it in a group of people. You still get to be part the festive environment and finish around the time when everyone else is finishing, feel celebrated. But yeah, our goal is just to get people out in nature and moving and seeing and experiencing
01:09:07
Speaker
both the natural beauty, but also like community and the, the, the organization hit was founded in, in, in British Columbia in 1998.
01:09:20
Speaker
um And so it's certainly gone through quite a few evolutions, I guess. You know, 1998, the internet was just coming out. I, I don't think that chip timing existed at the time. I i don't know that we even, had online registration, uh, at that time, like when I was even, even 10 years later, i I, when I first got into, race directing in, in another, part of the world, like, um, the registration form was in, uh, newsprint, like it was sponsored by the local newspaper. And so like people would literally cut out the registration form, sign it, like fill it out in pen, send it to the, uh, the newspaper, And then they I would pick up their forms manually and put them into Excel, hand time, everything. something
01:10:14
Speaker
So yeah, everything has everything has evolved quite a bit just in in that that short amount of time. um Social media didn't exist then. ah I think Napster was just kind of coming out, you know? Oh my God. That's how long it's been. So so it's it's been a while. It's nostalgia.
01:10:33
Speaker
Yeah. This this ah this interview. Yeah. um So yeah, it's, it's gone through ah different iterations. I think, like you said, when we last talked, everything got converted to virtual. And so we tried to make our events accessible virtually because of COVID and but still to try and keep people moving and active and engaged and supported. And I mean, that was a hard time for all of us. And so it was at least a way to,
01:11:04
Speaker
give people accountability and a reason to to get out there and move. And I mean, I know at least for me personally, that was ah a challenging time in a lot of different ways. And in not the least of which was that my my my company, like my life savings was invested in this thing that was hemorrhaging money and not bringing in money and things like that. So um yeah, it,
01:11:30
Speaker
that was a stressful time, but, but actually like our best, our best numbers to date were the year after COVID, like ever in the 27 years history, like the year after COVID people were so keen to just get out there and move. And um so that's still like the gold standard. It's like, I wonder if we can, we can get back to 2022 numbers, you know? And so, yeah, it's, it's been fun to just kind of be a part of this community and, and, and, and for it to be something that,
01:11:59
Speaker
I not only feel proud of, but that my kids are proud of and that they, they want to be a part of and that they, they feel some, maybe not ownership, but they're like, they think it's cool that we get to go. And, you know, like my, one of my son's favorite things to do is be in the shoot with, with the race directors and and give high fives. And it's like, people are coming fast. Like he wants to be the one giving high fives at the finish line or passing out the swag and stuff like that.
01:12:26
Speaker
And like I said, my daughter's more like me. She likes being behind the scenes and more like, greeting people at at registration and, and, you know, doing that kind of thing. So, yeah. Hey, I did ah some of those virtual races. They got me out of the house too. So, uh, appreciate that. I signed up, got my, got my medal in the mail or my, my wood, um, metal in the mail and t-shirt and stuff. So I was, Hey, it was something to look forward to actually in in a, you know, challenging time. And,
01:12:53
Speaker
um Yeah, I'm sure it helped a lot of people. Now, like coming out of COVID, you said there's like a boom, but I think the sport in general now, if I mean, I could be wrong, but I feel like it's blown up since since COVID. um It could be for few reasons, not just COVID, but, you know. Yeah, no, I think it definitely has. I think cycling saw a similar spike as well.
01:13:18
Speaker
And I think we, along with other organizations, kind of saw that as an opportunity to expand. And then I think i think maybe, At least in our case, maybe we expanded too much. And so we've actually, we we went up to 30 events and we've dialed it back to 25. But other, other people, even people who work in the industry, if like moved in. And so, yeah, I mean, there's definitely a desire to to gather and to, to challenge ourselves and to challenge one another. And so it's, it's, it's, it's been fun. it definitely keeps me on my toes. And like, I,
01:13:55
Speaker
I feel grateful that I get to do this every single day. And and do you do you think like that's a sweet spot 25 or is it like where you maybe modify the events slightly where you do maybe slightly longer or I know you do. Yeah. you got Kids runs and stuff, which is cool.
01:14:11
Speaker
Yeah. I think, I think at least in Canada, we, we have that, you know, intro up to, up to 21 K up to half marathon distance, kind of like in, in, in the regions where we are, i feel like that's a, that's a sweet spot. I think there will always be a need for those intro to trail runner running things. You'll never see me trying to direct a 200 or 300 mile race. Like I, I like, I like my sleep way too much. Even, even, yeah even when I was competing, like the, the, the few hundred milers that I signed up for, it was like,
01:14:46
Speaker
how can I do this and so wake up in my own bed and fall asleep in my own bed? Like i will only do something where like, I don't actually have to like, you know, go, go for more than like 16 hours. naa That's miserable. um So yeah, I, I do think that there's still a place to potentially have a few aspirational events. And those are what our other events are. They're, they're the ones that are beyond that half marathon distance and maybe a little bit more technical or, or more challenging in other ways. So I think um ideally if if in each region we could have. Unknown comment.
01:15:23
Speaker
If we could have maybe a little bit more of those, um what's the word? Yeah, maybe some of those aspirational, but but probably no more than like one or two, like something like ah where people that get their start with us, that they're in in most of the places there,
01:15:45
Speaker
there's kind of a a gap between like that 21 K and and even like 50 K or 80 K or hundred K. So it's like, can we provide something like that? and I feel like those are, those are also an area where we do pretty well. Like we, we have the powder face mountain marathon and half marathon, which is in Kananaskis, like between Calgary and Banff.
01:16:09
Speaker
that sells out like we only have a few, we only have like 150 spots, but that sells out like very quickly because people want to go and run something a little bit longer in the mountains. You cross a stream, like our photos, everyone's got, you know, up to their knees crossing a stream and stuff like that. And so it's like, it's a little bit more rugged. Um, and then like our, our stoked scramble and our stoked ultras, um,
01:16:31
Speaker
uh, we, we have those in Revelstoke and that's like a 25 K and a 50 K, but they're, they're gnarly. I mean, like you, you cannot do them without using your hands, um, in some sections. And so it is that next level, um, event, um, that, that people do, uh, and, and, and it's, so it seems like we were able to kind of retain some of those same people who are not in limbo, but like looking for that next thing to do,
01:17:01
Speaker
beyond you know what what we offer. But what's fun is like, even when people move on to marathons or ultra marathons, a lot of them will still come back as ambassadors or they'll still come back and want to run our races just to be part of the community. And so it's not it's not like, you know once you've moved up, you can't come back. It's just like, ah we wanna feel like a family reunion, like but with you but with family that you get to choose. you know Yeah, of course. That's the best kind.
01:17:28
Speaker
Yeah. ah But I mean, what a great way to explore. is I mean, not just explore the sport, but explore different locations and in all over Canada, which in the part you're in is, you know, it's magical. It's ah something people they want to go and see and and adventure in. So I think that's great, too, for.
01:17:50
Speaker
for a lot of people. and And I was going to say, do most people come back year after year? that Is that you are seeing a big return rate or is it is there a mix of new and old or? Yeah.
01:18:02
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we definitely see a lot of a lot of people coming back. um One thing that we we definitely maybe yeah, I'll say we struggle with, like we, we have, we have such a strong core of people that like, just whether they're ambassadors or whether they're long time, know, some people have been doing it for all 28 years or for 20 plus years.
01:18:23
Speaker
um And there it's a, it's incredible to have those people still part of the community. um But it it is challenging to, from from my perspective, it's actually challenging to bring new people in, like from the, like the younger generation, even though that's,
01:18:39
Speaker
obviously that's that's where the sport is growing the ah the most is is with with the younger people. It's just like, I'm not on TikTok. I don't know. And it's not even if I were, it's like, I'm not someone in their 20s, you know? And so it's like, it's it's actually trying to figure out how to connect with that age group and and and make sure, they get our events in front of their eyes and and get them out. So um it's fun. It's a fun challenge because it's like like, I'm actually younger than all of our race directors too. So it's like, got to find people, you know, whether they're ambassadors or someone that that can speak the language of, of the younger generation. Cause I'm, you know, I'm an old dude with, with white in my beard, you know? And so like, I, I probably can't at at every level. Like I, I just, those aren't my circles that I run in so to speak. So it's, it's finding ways to bring in the new, the new people.
01:19:34
Speaker
Yeah. um Other than watching your kids ah take part and and participate, what's what's the most rewarding part of ah being a race director, race series owner?
01:19:47
Speaker
um Honestly, like I really enjoy just seeing it all come together. Like there are so many different pieces behind the scenes and it's, it is kind of like Tetris and even on race day, like there's, there's always like hiccups or there's fires that we have to put out behind the scenes, but it's, it's actually really fun to see.
01:20:07
Speaker
it all come together. It's fun to see my race directors and my volunteer coordinators and my course managers and and and these people like feel good about what they've done. And and and and then obviously it's like it's so rewarding to like get to look people in the eyes when they cross the finish line. If if I'm able to be at that place, sometimes I'm i off on course you but doing something else, running water, doing aid station or something like that. But when I get to be the person that greets them and and and sees the pride in their eyes and, and because there is a sense of accomplishment. and So like, you know, for guys like you and I, who've run maybe further than some of these races are, i think sometimes we forget like how big of a deal that was when, when we went that far for the first time. And I, I still remember a two years of middle school cross country to go three kilometers without stopping. And when I see these, like I have, I don't have to, I'm often voluntold to like be the rabbit of the kids races for these three K races. And I, okay I struggled to like, to stay ahead of some of these kids.
01:21:13
Speaker
And, and it's fun because it reminds me like, just like how big of an achievement it was when I, when I crossed the finish line the very first time, like without stopping in a three K cross country race.
01:21:24
Speaker
And I was 13 years old and I've got like nine year olds on my heels doing this. And it's like, man, I, wasn't that long ago that like I used to think I was kind of fast and like a good one. you And I, it's, it's pretty fun to just like to, to see it on, on so many different levels. and And also, yeah, there, there are people that walk the whole thing and they've never walked that far, or there are people that, that are in their seventies that are doing it and they're finishing even eighties and they're finishing it. And they're like, and, and you know we'll get, we'll get people to line the finish shoot and just like rally them in and stuff like that. It's,
01:21:57
Speaker
it's a beautiful thing to, to, to get to do that for a living. Uh, it, the, um, it's not like I'm, I'm rolling in, in, in cash. We honestly, like the, our races are as about as, as economical as they possibly can be. And we try and, you know, save every penny that we can, um, and, and, and not extend any additional costs onto the, the, the participants. But, um,
01:22:27
Speaker
I would say that the the satisfaction that I feel um in knowing that that i'm I'm providing something, some sort of service to my community and giving
01:22:41
Speaker
13,000 volunteers, 13,000 participants. Plus, you know, if you add a hundred volunteers at each of those, like got impacting thousands of lives every year at ah at every event. And even just, you know, we'll have free orientation runs and stuff like that. And so just the fact that people get to go out and experience that for the first time, I think it's just a really beautiful thing.
01:23:05
Speaker
Yeah, it it really is. and And you're making an impact and seeing a lot of people get healthy. You know, I think at the at the very base of it, it's It's about health too, right? Like ah doesn't always have to be about performance. Just getting out the door is enough to you know get a breath of fresh air after work or clear your mind or there's so many benefits to it and and just movement and doesn't have to be running. It could be walking too.
01:23:31
Speaker
That's really cool. I think this probably an understatement, but how much has running meant to your life or endurance sports or sports in general just impacted you as ah as a person and in your life in general?
01:23:43
Speaker
um I mean, i I think they've shaped the the entire trajectory of my life. And for the longest time, I i tried really hard to not...
01:23:56
Speaker
to not be a one-dimensional person. Like I used to hide the fact that I was like a collegiate like athlete in when I was in university, because I didn't, I didn't want some of my professors to like judge me for that or or treat me differently because of that and think that I was just a dumb jock. So I wanted to be able to stand on my own two feet academically.
01:24:15
Speaker
But when I look back on it, like, it's not just that this is how like again, I'm, I'm really fortunate that I get to do this for a living, but like, it it impacts me in ways um that that nothing else in my life ever has or could. it's it's It's the source from which I've gained the majority of the relationships that I have. it's It's something that I'm able to do with the people that I love. And it's something I'm able to share with people that I love. And it's it's it's kind of like, i the way I view it is, it's like i get to I get to have like a,
01:24:53
Speaker
ah a family dinner, like a Sunday dinner. Like we we used to eat Sunday dinner every you know week with as a family. And it's kind of like, that's what I get to do with these events. It's like, I get to bring people together and we all get to just like enjoy one another's company. And and some of it is out on the trails, but some of it is you know post-race and just having some refreshments and just congratulating one another and celebrating the fact that we're alive the fact that we we we are all overcoming challenges, sometimes privately, sometimes publicly, sometimes health, sometimes relationship, sometimes addiction. Um, and, and we, we all get to be there and celebrate one another and, and, and hopefully just like give each other enough life to sustain whatever else we're going through until the next time, you know? And yeah.
01:25:48
Speaker
Yeah. It's, uh, Yeah, it sounds very simple, right? But it's, it's a very impactful. Um, so yeah, appreciate that. I appreciate, I appreciate you, Jacob. I appreciate always getting to connect with you even though, never face to face, like, I mean, in person, I should say, but hopefully one day, maybe I can make it out to one of your races and, uh, we can make that happen, but thanks so much for sharing with us today.
01:26:13
Speaker
it's like always a pleasure and, uh, I appreciate your words and hopefully ah it's impacted a few people today. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate you reaching out and making the time to to reconnect.
01:26:26
Speaker
Thanks so much, Jacob. We'll talk soon.
01:26:29
Speaker
Ready to crush your next goal with 15 years of experience across endurance sports from five K's to ultras over 10 marathons with a personal best of two hours, 45 minutes, including Boston, New York city, and Berlin plus two Ironmans.
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