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Daily Southampton: Episode 131 - Ivan's Football and Man-to-Man Marking
85 Plays16 days ago
Southampton – Greg has had one of his tactical insights so we discuss in length Ivan Juric's philosophy, how it's worked, and if we think it can come good.
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Transcript
Late Night Super Bowl Reflections
00:00:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
Hello and welcome back to the Daily Southampton, part of the Global Sports Podcast Network. My name is Greg Elliott and today I am joined by my good friend, Zach Ingo Finch. How you doing bud?
00:00:20
Zak
Yeah, it was too bad. Bit of a late one, although not as late as you. both stayed up to watch for Super Bowl. Greg came over to mine for at least the first half as a Chiefs fan.
00:00:33
Zak
It's it's it's somehow turned and become like being a Saints fan, where I got to watch, yeah, some, there sure was some sport happening. Not on my team.
00:00:47
Zak
I bet you did. And yeah, you you were lucky enough to have the morning off.
00:00:52
Zak
I was not, so we decided to call it a night early. You got to enjoy the rest of the Super Bowl and Peace at home. We both got to skip the halftime show because I don't want to watch 45 minutes of a concert. Take that as you will.
00:01:06
Zak
So yeah, I'm i tired.
Return of 'Tactics Tuesday'
00:01:08
Zak
It's Monday when we're recording this and I'm ready to talk about a sport that completely ruins my life but is a different one to the one I watched yesterday.
00:01:19
Global Sports Podcast Network
Oh look mate, it's the return today of everybody's favorite day of the week. We have skipped it for an entire month while we try to cobble together enough transfer information to fill in episodes. But it is the long sought after return of Tactics Tuesday. And in true tactic episodes fashions, I don't want to talk about the burning game at all.
00:01:45
Zak
to be to be fair does anyone apart from birdly again like i don't want to be very less completely as we start i will start with uh the the quote from was it john joe shelby who came out and said well the thing is is that um um It just doesn't look like they're going to score when they're in our half, so it doesn't really matter.
00:02:05
Zak
And it's like, we've been talking about that for weeks, how we get into that final third and it goes out like a lead balloon.
00:02:08
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:02:11
Zak
And the problem was, you know, I always thought, well, if we're picking up on it, surely the players on the opposition team are. And, you know, we knew they kind of did. It's the first time that, like, to To throw back to an earlier time in both met Greg and mine's career, not in podcasting, but in our actual careers, there was a time that the Saints players came to our workplace and gave a bit of like fans forum thing, and much despite St Wesley Hoyt came in.
00:02:42
Zak
And he was asked the worst team that he's played against. I don't know if you remember this story, Greg.
00:02:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
I do.
00:02:46
Zak
There was a a good friend of ours, Greek, who asked him, what's the, what's the favorite, like, what's the worst team you've ever played against? And without even missing a beat, he just said Everton. And they're a bit...
00:02:58
Zak
Beep. You can fit in the blank with whatever swear word you consider to be appropriate. However, immediately getting told off by the player liaison officer that is with them to not say things like that or bug off opposition completely. But it's very much kind of felt like, well, they're always saying what we're all thinking.
00:03:18
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, they're not wrong. And that's the upsetting part.
00:03:21
Zak
Yeah.
00:03:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
And yeah, look, it was a woefully disappointing performance. And a lot of that, in my mind, does come down to the tactics.
Critique of Ivan Djuric's Tactics
00:03:32
Global Sports Podcast Network
And we've talked before on the show about philosophies in football. And it is abundantly clear that my opinion on that is that they're not great.
00:03:40
Zak
Big fans.
00:03:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
Now, you know, obviously, to be a manager, you have to have a philosophy and impose it. And we are learning quickly what Ivan Djuric's philosophy is on football. it was When he was brought in, it was said that he likes aggressive, high pressing football. But actually what that has translated to on the pitch is man for man marking in the defensive element. And that is, it's a system that's, I don't want to say
00:04:15
Global Sports Podcast Network
outdated or past its best but it's it's not one we see very often yeah in this country anyway as the style of football. Games tend to be much more possession based or much more aggressive on the press and on the counter and a man-to-man approach I guess traditionally it's more like you would see in a five a side game right like you just pick a man and stick on him but what that leads to is is is no real shape as such that is identifiable.
00:04:52
Global Sports Podcast Network
And that's why watching us feel so disjointed and out of place, right? but How many times in the last three and four games have you and I messaged each other and been like, I just can't figure out our shape.
00:05:03
Zak
how are we playing
00:05:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
And the the real answer is because there's not a shape, because they're not marking their own zones as such as center back and fall back. And in its own respect, that's probably why we saw the strange team lineup with one center back and four fallbacks. Because if you think about traditionally in the the almost zonal style of play, the job of a fullback compared to the job of a center back, the job of a fullback is much more more closely aligned to man marking because you'll be running up and down the wing, sticking on whichever player you are playing
Challenges in Creativity and Adaptation
00:05:39
Global Sports Podcast Network
against. It becomes ah more of an individual battle.
00:05:41
Global Sports Podcast Network
whereas as your job as centre back is just don't let people through regardless of who it is. It's interesting to see the pros and cons of it, but really what it leads to is a very disjointed approach when we do get the ball, which is what I think causes a lot of our problems going forward because if you're basing your entire game on being where the your opposition player is that you are the person marking. How can anyone else in the team know where you are going to be to pass the ball once you're on the ball? There's no there's always going to be that almost lag in transition. And that is has been our downfall on quite a few occasions. It's why we lack so much creativity going forward.
00:06:31
Zak
I'd agree to that. like we struggle We struggle without a target. I think you know you and Oscar have pointlessly pointed out that's one of the reasons that having tall pool on the field has been important to the way that we play at the moment, right?
00:06:45
Zak
Because we have something to kick the ball at. Whereas if not, it's quite hard. like It's almost like you'd have to know the entirety of the opposition shape to actually know where to pass the ball. And let's just face it, like that's just not happening with the way that our team is.
00:06:57
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, or or even like the ability to scan and immediately identify quickly, which is fine. And there is a a ah skill in football that is sort of after and you want to be able to see the game and find that pass. But also it's so far removed from what our players have been asked to do up until this point. And I think a lot of that is why a lot of the players that suited Russell Martin's style so well,
00:07:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
really struggling because that's not the skills that they have honed and worked on they're not used to having to look and scan and decide in the split second what pass needs to be made because their system was much more regimented it was you know the set oh well this player needs to run in towards the goalkeeper for this short ball and then they'll immediately ping it left or right to the other player who's in their designated spot and it's it's interesting because different doesn't mean worse.
00:07:56
Global Sports Podcast Network
And I think that it could be really effectively used. It just so far hasn't been. But I'm going to come on to that.
00:08:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
And if I think that that will turn around after the message from our partners at Zencaster.
00:08:10
Zak
Yeah, I got some questions on that. so
00:08:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
So here at the Global Sports Podcast Network, we spent a lot of time selecting our delivery platform. And Zencaster came out the clear winner. With 4K video recording from your phone and AI editing that automatically removes all those ums and ahs, it's super easy to start a podcast that sounds great and is delivered efficiently.
00:08:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
If you're ready to tell your story, check out the link in the show description and learn more about Zencaster.
00:08:36
Global Sports Podcast Network
Anyway, so you ah you had some thoughts on
Is Djuric the Right Fit?
00:08:39
Global Sports Podcast Network
that.
00:08:39
Zak
Yeah so so the thing is, and this is obviously a question I think quite a few people asked, is that does it make Djuric the right appointment with the players that we have because he must have some confidence in his own abilities so that he can get all of the players playing like that and you saw after Martin went that they sort of enjoyed the creativity that they, you know, they kind of felt unchained.
00:09:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
Okay.
00:09:08
Zak
That lasted all about two minutes. Again, we need to accept the fact that our new manager bounce was a nil-nil draw against Fulham, not even under our new manager.
00:09:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
Okay.
00:09:15
Zak
that was That was our new manager bounce. But one of the things that like I think about in regards to that is that you know they must have taken time. I'd like to think they've taken time to select him. They must have understood that trying to shift rapidly from one complete style of football to another is not going to be viable to get anything out of the season. it will take a while to grow.
00:09:40
Zak
so in my head is it like they kind of have given him free will? I think this boy was down in my head to that question around what is the Southampton way and if you know as you said every manager is going to come in with a philosophy so I would like to know how like you know how you think it's going to work out and how you think it's going to be successful. Because with the group of players we currently have, they're struggling to adapt to the changes or like the basic changes, let alone such a drastic change in the way that they kind of
00:10:14
Zak
ah ah clearly play and you're you're seeing that because we're ending up with these sort of really dull affairs where We should have quote-unquote heavy metal football We don't have that and then a lot of blame seems to be being placed on Jurich not wanting to play them in exciting way But it sounds like in your mind It's because of the fact that they're struggling to play his way as opposed to actually, you know because of it Does that fair assessment? Is it just that the players themselves are the problem?
00:10:43
Global Sports Podcast Network
I think that that's partially true. If you look at the Burnley game as an example, it was ah if we're being honest a heavily rotated affair it wasn't the 11 that we've been playing that style with to point and you're right we didn't have the outlet in tool pool now I perhaps optimistically I hope that the philosophy and approach is slightly more deep than well we need to pull on the pitch for someone to kick a ball at right that's
00:11:14
Zak
but as As a starter though, it seems to be something really neat, clearly.
00:11:16
Global Sports Podcast Network
But yes, I think that's what it is. That is the almost the starting point. But I think that we do have the players to do it and come good. It just takes time.
Player Adaptation and Potential Fits
00:11:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
I think that actually what we saw with the lack of movement in the transfer window is almost exactly what you said. It is an acceptance that this remainder of the season is the transition period. It means that we should go into a position in the championship in a better position for having gone through that instead of having to do it at the start of the season. Now, there's still going to be personnel changes, for sure. That's that's inevitable. But think that if he can set his vision in place and get the players behind it and get them opening up to that system and into that creativity,
00:12:11
Global Sports Podcast Network
let's hope that we can potentially keep some of the players that we might consider that ah effectively effectively gone because it is freeing the players up to get back to what got them to the table and being able to play football, right? And I've said that it's more commonly seen approaching five-a-side football. That's because that is like the rawest form of football, right? It's you just five guys go out and play football like they know how to play football. And it's It's interesting because it actually a player like Taylor Hall with bellis it really plays to his strengths because he likes to progress forward with the ball and make a like long cross field ball pass and Sometimes they're a bit waylay sometimes they're not as accurate sometimes it leads to an issue but but
00:13:01
Global Sports Podcast Network
he is a player that enjoys that outlet and so he is a player that should thrive in this man-to-man system despite being a centre back which is probably a position that would mourn normal more commonly struggle but because he's got the freedom and ability to track his man back into the middle of the field and be in that position for transition he's the sort of player it suits which I guess arguably is potentially why we're seeing Bela Kotchap left out because from what I recall of him from the you know when he played for us in the relegation season he was a much more traditional centre back who was willing to dribble the ball forward and make a pass but when he was defending and in his you know layout was wanting to be that last man to make that tackle which is why you saw him being prone to a mistake and prone to ah ah you know a brash
00:13:54
Global Sports Podcast Network
crash lash out sometimes and and the occasional red card because you want it to be the defender making those plays because that's where he was comfortable, which is probably why we won't see him get a chance under Djuric because that's not, that doesn't suit because man to man is a completely different ball game. It's not you have your position and you stick to it. It's you might be at center back at one point, even though your technical position is striker, but When we transition, you need to get to where you need to be.
00:14:26
Global Sports Podcast Network
It just becomes a lot more based on instinct, I think, which which might be a concern with the players we've got for the rest of the season.
00:14:30
Zak
but
00:14:33
Zak
is going to say, is that going to be, no, I don't like to say it, is that going to be where somewhere something where maybe Jack Stevens comes in again? Because I think of him in that sort of way is that he's always been a player that will happily go on the attack off the back of, again, like he has been in the box before and he has been a centre back that, yeah, does his own own thing a little bit.
00:14:57
Zak
I think that my worry with this is that we didn't manage to train the silly errors out of them in the championship. We've definitely not trained the silly errors out of them so far this season. And since Zurich has come in, we're still seeing the same silly errors that have lost us games.
00:15:15
Zak
and that's the problem is that you're going man for man and we often lose the ball and can't do an encounter and then you end up having them sort of fall back into this mindset of well I don't know I'll try and play like I used to and then you have the goal against Burnley where basically because they're all playing in these weird positions they're not really paying attention.
00:15:33
Zak
that ball kind of just went into them without really a lot of contesting to be perfectly honest. You could see that they were kind of left, oh well I'll leave it because he's got him and I'll leave it because he's got him, I'll leave it because oh it's in the net. So yeah I guess, I don't know, who other than Taylor Harbour-Bellis, who else did you genuinely see could thrive in this system? I guess is my question.
00:15:55
Global Sports Podcast Network
Well, I've got three or four examples and I will touch on them after a message from our partners at the Global Sports Podcast Network.
00:16:02
Zak
The Global Sport Podcast Network is changing the face of football podcasting with dedicated daily content for every Premier League team, women's football, fantasy football and a daily Premier League rapper broadcasted in five different languages. This is your one-stop shop for your daily football fix. Find GSPN wherever you find your usual forecasts.
00:16:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
OK, so yeah, we're back. There are a few players, I think, can thrive in the system. Kyle Walker Peters is one that I don't think will struggle with that transition. I don't think has either. But that's because in even in Russell Martin's system, his creativity and ability on the ball to make those opportunities is what is his core strength. So there's not really a lot of change for him. And in fact, in a lot of Russell Martin systems, although He would technically be playing on the left or on the right. He would be provided the extra cover and the freedom to go and do whatever he felt was best because he is the player who has that ability. I think Matty Fernandez, I think that that style suits him. He's again quite progressive and aggressive. I mean, theoretically central midfielders, it should suit to a tee anyway, because that's effectively what their game is. to
00:17:17
Global Sports Podcast Network
to take on whoever their man is and be solid going back and going forwards but maybe even a Rebo that's probably why we've seen him thrive it seems you know before he's such a versatile player that's able to do so much of these things we said before how sort of hot and cold of a player he was but again maybe that is purely down to where in the system he was put before whereas This is a system that is designed for you to fall back onto your natural strengths, which is in theory should bring out the best in in a versatile player like that. Dibbling is an interesting one. I don't know if it is um is um natural for him to pick up as much defensive responsibility as Man for Man implies. So it'd be interesting to see if he grows into it and
00:18:11
Global Sports Podcast Network
and manages to be as strong under Djuric as he was in Russell Martin's system. I don't know the answer to that. That's one that we'll have to keep an eye on and see. But it's Suleimana, when we've seen him in the pitch, even for Russell Martin, I think what we commented on was his willingness and want to drive back and whim the ball deep and then get the ball forward.
00:18:38
Global Sports Podcast Network
And that is why I think we're seeing him thrive under this system because he, something has lit a fire under him and he has that desire to play. And now he is running for the ball and moving about in ways that we have not seen from him in in a couple of seasons. And that is exactly what the system is all about. He's getting about wherever he needs to be and is looking to be going forward and be the out option that if the ball bounces off of Tallpool's head or Stray off of a defender. He will be in want to be in the position to pounce on that and capitalize And we've seen that and that's created the goal for us for our win a win against Ipswich You know here that was exactly what happened the ball bounced off of a player He was there was willing to take the player in front of him on dribbled round him cut inside took a shot on target that was powerful enough that the keeper couldn't quite deal with it in it and
00:19:34
Global Sports Podcast Network
thankfully fell to Toolpool to to do the rest. That entirely comes from that exact creativity and openness that is what the system that Durech is trying to set up is set up to encourage.
00:19:49
Global Sports Podcast Network
and yeah Wellington seems to suit that fine, he seems to be willing to put the leg work. There are definitely going to be players in our team that struggle as well though. like
00:19:57
Zak
Yeah, I was going to say, like what the what do you think is the main cause of the struggles currently that is in literally just adaptation?
Transition Challenges and Hope
00:20:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, I think it's just transition. I would have liked to have seen a full strength, the same 11 start against Burnley or started against Ipswich to keep that momentum going. And I think that that's almost what we were told was going to happen in the press conferences. But that is, in my opinion, not what happened at all. There was far too many changes for one reason or another. And think that the consistency is the key to forcing its way through this sort of transitionary period. And don't know if it will permanently work as a solution, but it is definitely more tactically adjustable than our previous system. There is more than one plan to it. The plan is not just stick to the same man the entire time. That is not the essence of the man for man system.
00:20:54
Global Sports Podcast Network
There's still some elements to it of drop back into your shape and pick up the man closest to you. And that's the man you'll stick with. you know it It's dynamic. And it can be changed to force, to not think of it so negatively as to stay with that man as it can be as to, well, you need to be in this position to create this problem for your man and push him into a position he's uncomfortable for.
00:21:22
Global Sports Podcast Network
it It feels a lot more versatile and dynamic. Or the potential. It has the potential to be more versatile and dynamic, let's say.
00:21:32
Global Sports Podcast Network
I don't think we're there yet. But I definitely think it's better than what we had. ah But it is going to be tough to get there because some of our players just aren't very good.
00:21:42
Zak
Yes, it's how sustainable is it isn't that's the real question. And that's I think the problem you've already you know started to see with some players struggling to adapt to it.
00:21:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:21:53
Zak
But then they're the same players that thrived in one system and one system only. And it's interesting to me that a lot of the ones wanting to jump ship are not exactly going to the same sort of clubs in my opinion that are playing exactly the same way so they're going to have to adapt to a system either way so if the problem is that you miss the old Russell Martin style of football unless you're heading back to sort of a club managed by Russell Martin you might you're going to have to adapt either way so it says there's a lot of things that I think are a strange about it, but it's been an important lesson for me. I've enjoyed it, mate. you know It's given me some things to think about, and I guess it puts into perspective a little bit more than sort of the reactions that we give.
00:22:36
Zak
that a lot of the time do you come from emotions the same with fans right like the rest of the fans we are fans but like when you see people get really angry like well this isn't any different to Russell Ball and it's like not understanding the finer intricate details ultimately though obviously those are the things that people are going to care about like the results right but it's interesting to see like you know in my in my hope that we will improve.
00:23:02
Zak
There is actually more hope under the surface than it actually seems when we get, when we lose 1-0 at home to Burnley.
00:23:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:23:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
Exactly that, right? The emotions of Raw were disappointed at the performance, but we know and have known for a long time that our squad is not deep in quality. We do not have players that can come off of a bench and impact a game, particularly if we do have players that can come off a bench and impact a game.
00:23:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
it's because a player who wouldn't come off the bench and the impact a game has already been on the pitch. And it's as well as that we're contending with injuries and niggles and ah ah adjustments to attitude and a new system as well as the transition. It's never going to be easy when you have been in such a regimented system and immediately have to change to any system, especially as one where it's quite so different. But The promise of Jurich's system is that it benefits the ability of good footballers being able to play football in a creative way. And so there is hope that we can build upon it. And as the team starts to gel better, that we will see more of it and, you know, push on and get something to see in the season. I think
00:24:28
Global Sports Podcast Network
Genuinely now I feel that don't feel like 12 points is like our season done. like I feel like there's more in the season for us than that.
Optimism for Bournemouth Game
00:24:40
Global Sports Podcast Network
I don't think that it's enough to push us to a miracle saviour. I'm not pushing that agenda by any stretch of the imagination.
00:24:48
Zak
Who knows, unless every other team just lose now, every every all three teams above us lose every single game and until the end of the season.
00:24:50
Global Sports Podcast Network
but
00:24:57
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, or two of the teams above us lose every game, we win enough and Man City get a massive points of action.
00:25:03
Zak
yeah Yeah, who knows, that that's that's some point this week potentially, so that would be interesting.
00:25:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, but I think that it has the ability as a system to bring back enjoyable football to watch. And I think that most Saints fans at this point would settle for that the rest of the season.
00:25:20
Zak
Yes.
00:25:22
Global Sports Podcast Network
But that comes, I guess, with the stock warning of There are probably still more games as bad as that Burnley game on the way until we get there. So it depends how patient we managed to be.
00:25:32
Zak
We're all fickle, mate. We're all fickle. As we already pointed out, we year to year, yeah you know, you wouldn't think that this time last year we were, I don't know, yeah we were probably buzzing around this time, right? This is when we were just
00:25:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:25:44
Zak
We were still on that sort of, on a roll before we came crashing back down to earth and ending up finishing fourth, so...
00:25:50
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah. But yeah. But this concludes the part of the week that has started my journey back to optimism as we head to look forward to the week the weekend in our game against Bournemouth.
00:26:04
Zak
no, right Bournemouth this week. Good, fun times.
00:26:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
So as ever, Zach, thank you very much for joining me.
00:26:10
Zak
Thank you, mate.
00:26:11
Global Sports Podcast Network
Thank you, everyone, for listening. If you like what you've heard, I think we have some good opinions. Give us a follow. can get us wherever you get your podcasts. We're on all the social media, X, Blue Sky, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. We've got a new Facebook page. Go and give us a like over there. We're on the Global Sports Podcast Network YouTube channel. You can check out all of the other podcasts from the Premier League daily teams and the full Premier League wrap-up teams. Go and give them a a like and a listen if you like that sort of thing.
00:26:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
We look forward to seeing you tomorrow where we'll be back with a wildcard episode for the week and we look forward to seeing you then. Thank you very much.