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00:00:01
Dr Dawn Harris
244 Plays3 months ago
In this latest UKRunChat podcast Joe chats with Dawn Harris, a clinical and forensic psychologist.
If you want to get better at prepping for a race or simply want to make your daily runs more effective, this episode is a must-listen!
Listen to hear all about:
Conquer the Mental Game - Learn how to overcome mental barriers and self-doubt, transforming your mindset to achieve greater success in your running journey.
Achieving Flow State - Discover the power of the "flow state," where your mind and body work in perfect harmony, making even the toughest runs feel effortless.
Harness Visualization - Understand how combining visualization techniques with mindful practices can help you reach new personal bests faster and more effectively.
Master Your Subconscious - Dawn shares strategies to tap into and train your subconscious, turning negative thoughts into powerful motivators that elevate your performance.
You can connect with Dawn via:
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome Dawn. Thanks for coming on the UK Run Chat podcast. How are you? thanks Yes, I'm good. And thank you for asking me. Very excited to be here. like Brilliant. We were introduced via a mutual friend called Ian and he thought it would be good for us to have a chat and that our listeners would get a lot out of it. So thank you, Ian.
Role at Kedras Clinics and Neurofeedback
00:00:18
Speaker
hopefully So would you like to start by giving us a brief introduction to yourself, to cadres clinics and the type of work you do with athletes? Yeah, so and I'm a clinical forensic psychologist um and have been for many decades now.
00:00:36
Speaker
So about two years ago, I've been in private practice for about the last eight years. And about two years ago, I decided to open up a chain of clinics called Kedras Clinics, they're based in Edinburgh in Perth, in Scotland. And what we do is we use a combination of therapies and neurotechnology in the form of something called neurofeedback to help people um optimize mental health and achieve performance because sometimes two go hand in hand, sometimes they don't.
How Neurofeedback Works
00:01:07
Speaker
But neurofeedback, whether it's been around for 50, 60 years, it's really starting now to be used more within the sports world, um as well as other worlds, but the sports world in particular. And so what we do is we work with a variety of people, including athletes. And what we do is that we work in regard to helping them
00:01:30
Speaker
achieve that big performance at that competitive edge, because a lot of people will come to us with a variety of difficulties, and um neurofeedback can really help. It's a very, and I can maybe explain this a bit more later on, but it's something that can optimize your brain functioning, which means your physical movement is associated with the brain as well. It's not just about the way you think, it's about the way you move. That's all driven by the brain. The brain controls everything we do. So what we do,
00:01:59
Speaker
is we help um the brain ah function at its best and its optimum, which means physically you're at a peak as much as we can do a neurofeedback and also mentally um you're at a peak as well. So neurofeedback is all about creating like an engine that is working really, really well. And all parts of the engine are working together and talking together to the extent that um you are functioning at your most optimum in various ways in a way that's very effortless. So I think that the thing that athletes love about what we do is there's not a lot of talking, there's not a lot of conscious effort, it's just a case of putting some senses on your head and watching a TV and you feel different
00:02:49
Speaker
So let's let's talk about neurofeedback then, which you've mentioned and given an explanation to them. But that that's for those unfamiliar with the term, can you explain again what neurofeedback is and how it can benefit athletes, particularly? So neurofeedback is a neurotechnology. So it's a brain-computer interface. So what that means is that we're working with the brain.
00:03:17
Speaker
and using software that helps the brain see its own activity, its own EEG activity on a screen. You can't see that, but the brain can see its own activity. So it's a form of biofeedback. So, you know, with biofeedback, if you're given and feedback via, I don't know, a watch or some other way of seeing how your heart is operating, you can then change that. So you can see if your heart rate is going too fast, you'll slow down. That's biofeedback.
00:03:45
Speaker
It's the same with neurofeedback, but this is neurological with the brain. So what we do is we put sensors on the brain that help read the brainwave activity, the EEG activity. That in turn, that information about how the brain is working is fed through to a TV. The person is watching the TV, and but they are watching a movie or an animation, something they enjoy. yeah But the brain is seeing its own activity through the colours and the sounds um and and the actual image on the screen so it contracts and it gets bigger, the colours change, they're brighter than they're grayer, there is fog, there is a on the screen things move faster if you're watching a plane, the plane would move faster and all that is
00:04:38
Speaker
is that it's the brain taking on information about itself and how it is operating and functioning. And as a consequence, it starts to literally like engage with itself and start to change itself. So it has these little hypotheses. And it's like, well, if I change this, what's gonna happen? you're You're oblivious to this. You're just watching a screen. You could be watching golf. You could be watching running. You could be watching whatever you want. But your brain is seeing itself via the screen and the images on the screen, so it's seeing itself via colours and sounds, etc.
Visualizing Brain Activity and Feedback
00:05:16
Speaker
So the software is is almost like um reading your brain and then showing your brain its own activity via the screen. hi the picture
00:05:29
Speaker
wow i yeah i know so i know it's right if i think about that so if i think about how you think you you make pictures and images in your own mind so if i say to myself now you know think of a tree or think of my dog or you know my dog's not in the room with me i can think of an image of the dog or a memory of me with the dog So is my conscious mind, when I'm thinking like that, is that naturally doing the same thing as what gets transferred onto that television? Is that and that kind of thing? and No, it's, um have you seen and like an ECG where you can read somebody's heart rate and you see them squiggly lines like this? Yes. Well, in your feedback, you would see the EEG.
00:06:19
Speaker
which is all of the brainwaves in the in the brain because they all do different things. Yes. So they're all communicating all the time and telling the brain to do different things. and And so your brain can be moving too fast in some areas, too slow in other areas. Yeah. So software that we use shows the brain whereabouts it's not working took an optimum way and it starts to sort its life out. So um if you think about an engine, so a car engine, and if it's going, if your foot is constantly on the brake, then you the car is going to be very slow. It's the same with the brain. If you are generating these particular brain waves in your brain, in particular parts of your brain, your brain might be slower, but naturally fact you actually want it to be a bit faster.
00:07:09
Speaker
in that area. So it might be, for example, you don't think you can concentrate and focus, that would be on the front left of your brain, is concentration and rationality and problem solving and focus. So what we do is we could put a sensor on the front left of your brain, and it starts to read it and say, Oh, hold on a minute, brainwaves aren't quite right. So we literally then show it, but it's not working correctly. It then changes how it's operating. So it literally saying, I need to take my foot off the brake, make this go faster. So the brain does everything itself. There is no conscious effort on your part to do anything. All we're doing is taking a mirror, putting it in front of your brain and saying, this is how you're working. Could you do it a bit differently to help the person
00:08:05
Speaker
um, function optimally, physically and mentally. yeah And as a result, you're sitting there and you start to feel calmer, more relaxed. There's less pain. Things feel easier. You can regulate your emotions better. You'll feel less stressed. And even after 20 minutes, you can go home and feel different. You'll sleep
Neurofeedback vs. Visualization Techniques
00:08:27
Speaker
differently. Things will be very different. So it's likely we go back to the engine analogy. yeah It's like,
00:08:33
Speaker
in the engine is now all of a sudden working exactly as it should. Nobody's got their foot on the brake, nobody's got their foot on the accelerator, all of the parts of the engine are talking together and as a result you've got a ah really nice moving car. And so just explain to me how That goes from the the EEG type nodes on the head into a program that I'm watching. So that that that's how that is how it changes by me watching the program, I'm assuming. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. yeah Because although you're watching a program of a run, you could watch a running. You could watch running if you wanted. Yeah. So you're watching a running, a race or whatever it is you want to watch about running. Yes. And you're like enjoying it. no This is really quite nice.
00:09:20
Speaker
But what your brain is seeing, it's not seeing running, it's seeing its own EEG. So it's seeing its own activity and how it's functioning on the screen. So it's literally looking at itself on the screen. You don't know that, you can't see that. You can still see the running, and but the brain through the software is seeing its own activity via colors, by the sounds. And so what will happen is if as you're watching the screen, it will start to contract or it will get bigger, or the colors will get brighter, or the music will go up, or the the sound will go up, or it'll go down. yeah And that's just your brain taking on information and then just saying, well, if I do this, what's going to happen? And as a result, the image changes on the screen. That's your brain starting to change the way it's functioning and so that you, as an individual, can function at your best mentally and physically. Because the brain and the brain is in charge of everything. The brain is in charge of our movement.
00:10:20
Speaker
Brain is in charge of how we think. The brain is in charge of how we regulate our emotions. Brain is in charge of everything associated with us. So if you've got that working really well, then everything else works really well.
00:10:34
Speaker
So what and I'm hearing then is, can cook correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to process this in my brain. is that So though those pictures, is like it's turning up the volume if it needs turning up for my brain, or it's turning down the volume if I need it turning down for my brain.
00:10:51
Speaker
or it's making, say I'm watching the London Marathon, I've come to your clinic, I'm watching the London Marathon, it's making the runners' vests brighter because that is something that I need to make me be able to focus more or whatever my outcome is that I'm watching. So it's but it's retraining via those kind of, it's like your senses,
Understanding Flow State in Athletes
00:11:11
Speaker
isn't it? Your colours and your sight and your screens and yeah. Yeah, it's like it's a good it's like it's it's training your brain to operate at its best.
00:11:19
Speaker
But your brain's doing that all by itself. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to do anything consciously. You're just watching a screen. And in turn, your brain completely change it. It doesn't completely change, but it changes how it's functioning. And as a result, some people will stand up and say, oh, my God, I feel taller. Or um I slept really well last night after not being able to sleep for months, years, weeks. And I when I I normally respond to a certain situation with stress or with anger or with difficulty. I no longer have that anymore because your brain has helped you to regulate your emotional responses because it's like, that's not so good for you. So your brain in turn has seen itself on the screen and thought, no, no, no, those areas of your brain associated with emotional regulation, of which there are many, but it starts to tap into that and starts to change it so that you are effectively
00:12:16
Speaker
changing the way your brain operates. And that is, I wouldn't call it permanent, but once you start changing the brain, it's long lasting, unless you have another difficulty or a trauma. And of course, your brain is impacted, but you then will work if you came back to the clinics, you would then work with a different brain. So we would work with a brain that we had already changed.
00:12:37
Speaker
and then you start going from there. So if I think about techniques that are out there a that runners and athletes might be familiar with, so I remember seeing um YouTube videos of people in the 90s like Sally Gunnell, I remember a specific YouTube video about after she won her gold medal she talked about how she had played the race through many many times in her mind and yeah yeah she actually speaks in that interview as if as if it was an out of body experience, it wasn't her running because she'd run it that many times mentally in her mind. yeah yeah is that's the That's the kind of mental training techniques that I think people think of, you know, the kind of visualization, that kind of stuff. Is that main difference with neurofeedback to traditional, those kinds of training techniques or what others are there? Yeah, I mean, I think that visualization is a great tool to have, because with visualization, you
00:13:34
Speaker
Thinking about something is just as powerful as doing it in in terms of brain functioning. So if you're thinking about it, if you're thinking about success, if you're thinking about winning that race, if you're thinking about getting through that next run and you visualize it and visualize it and visualize it, your brain is almost like running that, but you're only just thinking about it. So as a result, it's very powerful. The difference between visualization or mindfulness and neurofeedback is that neurofeedback is not a conscious effort. So, you know, visualization is, you've got to sit down and you you need to really, some some a lot of people can't do visualization. um Some people really struggle with it. I think it's great to have, but it can sometimes be hard to do. But if you can do it, it's great. But neurofeedback doesn't take conscious effort to do the same thing.
00:14:29
Speaker
So, and however, I would say probably a combination of the two of them is best because I think you need not just for me, I don't think you need just one thing to help you perform at that peak level that you're capable of. I think you need a variety of things. Your visualization is one of them. But your feedback can really help with, um I suppose, creating a brain and a body that you could get with all these other techniques. It's just that your feedback does it quicker. That's all. But visualization is very important and in terms of and helping train the brain and therefore the body and to be able to operate in a particular way. And it can be subconscious. Once you've visualized and visualized and visualized, and then you start running that that race. It can
00:15:21
Speaker
very much about the flow state we've talked about that we're going to be talking about. That's when you can get into a flow state and because visualization can help you get there. Okay, so we we yeah we mentioned flow state before we started recording, didn't we? So let's yeah less let's dig into that, the concept of flow states. when When you said it, I started thinking of runners high, um but can you explain what it is, what is flow state and how athletes can train themselves to access that state and why they'd want to access that state. Yeah, flow state is a very powerful way of being. So flow state is where if you're running, you're running in a way that is seamless and almost feels effortless, but you still achieve a great run, probably
00:16:16
Speaker
your best and that you're doing it in a way that is almost like you're on automatic pilot and it's where your body and your brain are connected and together so that you don't have any conscious thought about um I need to run like X or I need to run like Y or you don't it's a way of being able to remove self-doubt of removing conscious thoughts around anxiety or comparing yourself to others. Flow state can be quite a subconscious place to be, um but it's also where you, when you're running and you have this ability to, the flow between your mind and your body is so connected that
00:17:08
Speaker
um you are almost like you don't exist as an entity. It's almost like you're just effortlessly running and you can feel your arms running. You can feel your feet on the floor. You're aware of your body, but it's almost like it's someone else's body and it's that automatic. And so as a result, running becomes this effortless way of achieving a goal that you've always been searching for or looking for. So it's whether you're hobbyists, whether you're a unique runner,
00:17:39
Speaker
flow state is a great place to be, but you would call it the zone, as opposed to a runner's high. So the zone is a flow state. So neuroscientifically, what that means is there's something in a flow state called and transient hypofrontality. And that is where your frontal your prefrontal or front of your brain that's associated with self-doubt, negative thoughts and rationality, decision-making, that almost like for a while turns off. So you are absolutely absorbed into this subconscious place of running in this effortless way. So it's a very mindful way of running, but it's very effortless. Eventually, once you train your body and brain to do this,
00:18:29
Speaker
As a result of that neurochemically, so that's the neurology behind it, but the neurochemicals behind it, so you want dopamine, you all know about dopamine, that's increased, but it's very strategically increased. It's not, you don't have this burst of dopamine. It's a very much a solid balanced dopamine release. So you've got motivation and focus. Then you have higher levels of, um, um, like, um, endocannabinoids and endorphins.
00:18:57
Speaker
painkillers and the ones that give you a pleasurable sensation. But you have also got an epinephrine. So you're helping with energy and you're alert so that you are aware of when you might need to pick up the pace or slow down the pace. A flow state can only be achieved if you have a balanced energy when you're running. So it's like if you're bored when you're running, you won't get a flow state because your mind will start to get bored, you'll start to and focus on other things, it will wander. So it's not the place for flow state. If however, the run is too difficult and you get anxious, you get out of breath or you get a bit frustrated, you won't get flow state because then your brain will become absorbed with, Oh my God, I'm going to get through this. I can't get through it. It's too much. I can't do this. And you'll focus too much on other things and you'll be out of your flow state. Running will get harder.
00:19:51
Speaker
So the plate the way to get a flow state is to practice by practicing with runs that are within an ability level that's not boring, not not too easy, yeah but not too hard. And then as you practice and you train your body and brain to talk together in the flow state, then what happens is that you then can gradually increase and the difficulty in your running level.
00:20:19
Speaker
So that as you gradually increase that, you take the flow state with you, but you can try to train your brain and body into a flow state. If it's the run is in the first place or if it's boring. Does that make sense? You've got to do it at that in a way that but you know, the run, you can do it. It's not boring. It's not too hard. That's when you achieve the flow state and, and the way to help you to achieve that one of them is visualization. So start visualizing.
00:20:49
Speaker
um, how your body will be during this run. And it might be that you have a routine of preparing your brain and body to go on a run. So you're almost like, or you're training your brain to say, right, this is where I need to be in terms of a flow state. It's not about a conscious effort. It's about training myself to be in this place where mind and body are literally seamless. Um, I'm running, I can feel my arms.
00:21:18
Speaker
can feel my legs on the here as I'm running. I'm aware of them in a very mindful way. And that's when you get into flow state. So time, perception of time can be distorted in a flow state, it might feel as if you've ran a marathon and you, you hardly who were aware of the time.
Training the Brain for Flow States
00:21:35
Speaker
Yeah, it might slow down. It's just very because you lose all concept of consciousness outside of yourself. So You can't see other people and you know your thoughts are or um you're not aware of your thoughts. It's just this subconscious movement. So to that ah to me as as a running hobbyist sounds very very much like like Runners High and you said you called it in the zone but you said some really interesting things then like being able to turn off self-doubt.
00:22:07
Speaker
That's incredible because you can just, ah you can put that into any aspect of your life, really, ah and for things to feel effortless. But let' get let's go over some of those really strip back and dumb down for me, how, how I would practice getting into that as a, like to our listeners, you know, we were out there running five K's and 10 K's and that kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, you can do this in a very staged way. So the, you can practice it, not even when you're running, you can practice it in life generally.
00:22:37
Speaker
So, for example, um if you walk to work or if you're walking anywhere, just practice noticing your feet on the floor. Just start there. Just noticing your feet on the floor and nothing else. that's All you notice is your feet as they touch the ground. That's that's maybe the first place to start. Then as you notice that, then just become aware of, right, here's my feet touching the ground and there's my legs are attached to my feet.
00:23:05
Speaker
You notice nothing else, just that. And gradually you start to do this through your whole body until as you're walking around, you could be walking down a busy street, but all you're aware of is your feet touching the ground. Your feet are connected to your ankles, to your legs, to your body. Your arms are swaying and you're very, very aware of how they're moving. Everything about your body you're aware of, you're aware of your breathing, you're aware of your movements, but in a way that almost like cuts out the rest of the world,
00:23:35
Speaker
That's where you can practice. It's a very mindful way of being, a very regulated way, but it's also a mind-body connection that's so seamless that it's almost like you are, how can I say it? It's almost like you're one being, moving as one, as opposed to being a being aware of yourself in different bits. I don't know if that makes sense,
00:24:03
Speaker
but It's like everything feels a bit in tune together, like an engine. You're less aware of things outside of yourself and you're able to shut down your mind to just focusing on your body moving. It's all you focus on.
00:24:19
Speaker
Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Yeah. So if I, so if I'm listening to this and I'm a runner and I want to go out and try this, so what would you suggest they go out and do one, two, three, four, five, six, how how many runs would they do? And they're just focusing on their feet and their feet connecting and then progress to, is it my legs? I would probably, I practice walking first like that. I track practice the walking in my everyday life. I practice even walking around the house, just practice noticing.
00:24:49
Speaker
only the way your body is moving, just practice that. And trying to almost like shut out everything else until you are so in tune with your body, it feels that you are the only thing on this planet and nothing else exists. And the more you do that and tune into your body, the quieter your brain will become, because remember I've talked about the transient hypo-frontality, so where you shut down this bit of your brain front that's all about self-doubt.
00:25:19
Speaker
And that's all about rationality and conscious thought. We're trying to shut that down. And the only way we can do that is by going into this very subconscious place in which you almost like take yourself to and a deeper part of your brain. You don't know you're doing this consciously, but a deeper part of your brain where your body and is the only thing that exists. Nothing else exists. Now that takes practice. I don't deny that.
00:25:45
Speaker
But you know how you're talking about Sally Gunnell with visualize, visualize, visualize, running and succeeding. That is part of the flow state as well. So if you start practicing with everyday life where you start noticing how your hands are just on a desk and noticing your hand touching the desk so that you become aware just of your hand touching the desk. This is just some examples you have to do this.
00:26:14
Speaker
yeah um But it it comes to the point where if I can just notice my hand and where but I'm feeling it on the desk, I'm noticing nothing else. And I must train my brain and my body to only focus on that. If I have any thoughts coming my way, I just try to let them go, watch them as if I would have trained and just focus on my hand. That's all I'm trying to do to train my brain and my body. And part of that is visualizing success or visualizing a flow state. So visualizing yourself running.
00:26:44
Speaker
effortlessly, visualize yourself in tune, your body and brain in tune with itself in a regulated way. So it's almost like you feel like a separate entity, the rest of the world. So it's a an amazing place to be, but it takes time to train your brain and body to be in that place. yeah That's the flow state. yeah So so the the one comment I'll make on that is I think I was just trying to imagine that then as you were talking, if I was walking and I was focusing on my feet to train that focus.
00:27:17
Speaker
I might find that quite hypnotic if I was just focusing on my one, two, one, two, one, two, one, two. Some people actually count when they're running as well to let the mind go away quicker, but that would feel quite hypnotic. Is that? Yeah, but I mean, hypnotic is good because hypnotic is where it's like hypnotic is a subconscious activity anyway, so it will take you down into that place where you want to go. The hypnotic element being All I'm focused on is this. And as a result, I can guarantee you will find your thoughts will calm down. You will feel less activated by self-doubt, by comparing yourself to others, by noticing what's around you, because you will be so focused on your body, that but not in a conscious, and distracted way, but in a very subconscious, easy,
00:28:12
Speaker
and seamless way. And it' so it's a good word to use hypnotic. And and that's why I'm saying it also might, if you're doing a run, it would also, it would be like, I'm an automatic pilot. I, you would probably find, cause there is time distortion, you would find, right. I'm starting the race at five o'clock, um, in the evening, whatever the race is three miles long and three hours long. It's eight o'clock. If you get into flow state, you will notice the eight o'clock will come very fast.
00:28:41
Speaker
because you are so absorbed into this very subconscious place that you will the the time will just go and you won't really notice it. It's very, very similar to what Sally Gunner was saying.
Conscious Planning vs. Subconscious Execution
00:28:53
Speaker
I actually felt it was an out of body experience. She was in a flow state.
00:28:57
Speaker
I have got an off-piece to cut question I'm going to ask you in a moment. and you you But I'd like to and start to talk about the conscious versus subconscious, because that's been mentioned a couple of times. and you've You've done a lot of work on the interaction between the conscious and the subconscious mind. um but do you Would you explain the the difference between the two for for everybody, and um how does this impact ah you know the the interplay between the two impacted runners?
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, so the conscious is associated with um intentional thought. So it's associated with um making decisions, solving problems, focusing, concentration. um It's very much about an intentional way of being. You know exactly what you're doing.
00:29:53
Speaker
um You plan things, you and can solve things at work, you can study at school, that's a very much of conscious yeah and activity.
00:30:07
Speaker
Subconscious, however, is more associated with habits, instincts, muscle memory, automatic um way of being.
00:30:20
Speaker
In fact, we actually live in our subconscious about 98% of our day, every day. yeah So we're driven by it most of the time. ah but For example, we don't we don't consciously breathe, do we? We're not sitting here now going, come on, breathe in and out. No, no, no. Yeah, and our brain stem's helping us with that. But I think the the um the conscious would be, if we put it into running terms, the conscious would be I'm going to plan this route. I'm going to plan how I and approach it. The subconscious would be part of your brain that then actually um carries out the conscious plan. That's the difference between the two. So your conscious brain will plan it. Your subconscious brain will run it. So that's the difference. So
00:31:15
Speaker
As a result, of course, you can see the subconscious is running it. Then subconscious has quite a significant impact on, um, your running achievements, efforts, and performance. And if, and trying to control that, which can be hard, um, trying to control your subconscious is where it's going to take you from a ah good runner to a great runner.
00:31:42
Speaker
because any type of sport running included is very much governed by psychological concepts, including self-doubt being one of them, motivation being another. um And if you have in your subconscious will be all those times you thought I could have done better. All those times you were told you should have done better. All those times you thought, I wish I just ran that like that's going to be sitting your subconscious all the time. And it will sit as a memory. It was a muscle memory. It will sit as a thought memory and emotional memory. And as a result, when you run the next time, you're not aware of this, but subconsciously, there's this little voice right deep in your brain saying, ah, but you didn't do this for the last time. You forgot you didn't do this right. You didn't do it as well as that person. And as a result, those doubts come in.
00:32:36
Speaker
And that's when your running is impacted because you get focused on, I can't do this. I I am not as good as this person over there. I'm not as good as I was a year ago. I'm not as good as I was a month ago. I don't think I'm as fit as I should be. um Lots and lots of things of being your subconscious and and also your subconscious is full of childhood stuff. It's full of teachers telling you, you would never get anywhere. It's full of, and you know, being, ah a sports day and not running as fast as you were meant to or everyone thought you were going to, that all sits in your subconscious. And as a result, when you run or do any sport, that comes like little gremlins and then right inside of you interfering with your ability to run to your best. That's all sitting there having an impact. So as a result, that's why we go back to the previous discussion.
00:33:35
Speaker
Flow state is so important to becoming a great runner as opposed to a good runner because you're working at training your subconscious to calm down um and almost like to work for you rather than against you. And I'm not saying it's easy because it's not, because your subconscious is very powerful. yeah um And it's full of all of these habits and instincts that sometimes are lifelong, and muscle memory, lifelong. And so it's very hard to train something is entrenched within you at that deep subconscious level. So it's not an easy thing to do, but you can do it with all of those things we've been talking about, including visualization. Yeah.
00:34:23
Speaker
and and really training your brain to see that you can do this as opposed to that you can't do this. Our brains are very much focused on the negative all the times. we Our brains like to enter the negative because our brains are focused on surviving. um And as a result, if we focus on what we can't do, it helps us to survive because then we try harder and harder and harder to make sure we do do it. yeah But consequently, our brains will automatically go the negative.
00:34:51
Speaker
Our job is to try to help our brains yeah A switch off in flow state or B if they won't do that just to talk to our brains and say I know you're going to go down this negative route but there is some evidence I've got here that I've actually done okay and trying to calm down that little negative gremlin with a positive gremlin. So you need that balance. You need that seesaw, but you need to consciously do that with the subconscious. And that's a strange statement to say, but that's what your subconscious will do. It will govern you. It will take you down the negative route. It will show you everything you've ever done that was rubbish, yeah but it will tend not to show you the things that you've done that were great because like, no, no, no, no, for you to be really good. I've got to show you everything that you weren't so good at so that you'll get better next time. That's just the way our brains operate.
00:35:41
Speaker
whereas we're trying to train it to be different. I mean, it's the summer holidays, end of the summer holidays, and my son watches a lot of films on repeat. but You've just got me thinking, there's one called The Croods, which is a cave family. Do you know it? It's a caveman and his family. um And the dad saying in in it is never not be afraid. And you you you're saying these, they that we focus on the negative. i That's almost like innate in this, isn't it? Back to when we were cave people, and you shouldn't leave the cave because you get eaten.
00:36:13
Speaker
Is that where we came from? It's literally that. Yeah, it's to survive. We are all about survival um and surviving physically as well as mentally, but our brains will naturally take us down that route. um And also what our brains hate, hate hate is change. Brains do not like change. So as a result, when you're saying, right, okay, I'm going to try and achieve this flow state, what your brain will say is, I don't think so.
00:36:39
Speaker
um I'm used to operating in this way, thank you very much, and I will continue to do that. So, subconsciously, um your your brain needs to be helped to change by repetition. Your brain will change in response to repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. That's when you start to create new neural pathways. That's why Sally Gunnell would have said, I trained and i've trained ah visualize I I and I and I visualized and I visualized, because your brain will respond to repetition.
00:37:08
Speaker
now When trying to achieve a flow state, clearly it's not going to happen tomorrow. It takes time. It takes this conscious effort to create a subconscious movement because it's about movement. So neurologically, it's not just about the front of your brain calming down and removing self-doubt. It's also about the part of your brain associated with movement and how that is activated as well.
00:37:35
Speaker
So as a result, you become like this individual that's running along the road, the park, wherever, and almost as if and there is no conscious element. There's no conscious brain there. It's just this automatic. I can feel everything about me and the way that I'm moving. And this is amazing, but you will not be um particularly aware of it at the end of a run or a race because you have you've gone into the subconscious part of your brain as a result, time will be skewed.
Harnessing the Subconscious with Habits and Visualization
00:38:10
Speaker
and Faster, it'll be slower, it but it will be skewed. I've got two questions. Is there is there a technique that people that athletes can do now, so our listeners could do now, that will help them harness their subconscious? like that though is it Is it still that visualization training that you're talking about? Is it that same?
00:38:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's it's harnessing it by repetition, by visualization, by habit formation, so creating habits. ye So it might be, for example, before I go for a run, um I am going to um let my brain know that's what I'm going to do. So I'm going to, I don't know, drink a glass of water half an hour before I go.
00:38:59
Speaker
yeah um then I'm gonna tie up my shoelaces in a particular way. I'm gonna put my clothes on in a particular way. So your brain is starting to say, aha, I know where we're going. So it's almost like you're encouraging it and saying, we're gonna be going for a run subconsciously. And we're gonna get ourselves into this place of trying to get to flow by bringing in, you're almost tapping into your subconscious and stepping into it.
00:39:29
Speaker
And subconscious likes habits. It likes to be automatic. So what you're trying to do is work in the way that you sort your subconscious works, which is habit and instinct. So if you can create um a habit, a formation before a run, then you're almost like training your subconscious to go to the place you want to go it to go to by saying, I'm just operating in the way that you like.
00:39:59
Speaker
which is habit, which is instinct, which is automatic pilot. Does that make sense? And that's how you then create the flow state? Yeah, I'm saying it makes sense. I understand what you're saying to me.
00:40:14
Speaker
Yeah, the process sounds like it it does take, like you say, discipline and repetition. i'm i'm but My mind mind's going off in all sorts of different places while you're saying this. I'm thinking, right, so when if I'm sat and i'm and I'm doing that visualization and I'm focusing on my feet when I'm walking, like lots of runners like to listen to music for motivation. so if my If my tune that really gets me going is Eye of the Tiger, would that help? like could Should I be sat there doing my visualisation with Eye of the Tiger playing on in the background? I think you have to be... I think if you're going to use music, yeah I think there's a few things I'd say about that because then you could get onto, which is another probably another podcast about dopamine,
00:41:04
Speaker
And if you layer too many, too many things that dopamine provoking like music and running together, you might find you get too much of a dopamine peak, a dopamine surge. And that's not great because after dopamine surges become pain and as pain as in emotional pain, a lower pain, a lower mood, whatever you want to call it. That's where the high comes from. If you have too many things in your life that will and initiate dopamine release.
00:41:32
Speaker
So um listening to music while you're running could be part of that. So the dopamine will come from listening to the music and also the running. yeah If you do that then, and I'm not saying this happens all the time, but what can happen is that you will have too much dopamine releasing and activities and that's when you'll drop a bit because you can use too much dopamine. um So I would say if you're going to be using music, then do it intermittently. Don't always do it every single run because then what will happen is the music will lose lose its intensity because it's like, I know I'm bored now. So the dopamine release, um especially if you run every day, you've released so much dopamine by using the music and the running that when you go to do it again the next day, you've depleted too much dopamine. And as a result, you don't have enough of the baseline hasn't gone back up to where it needs to be. You go again and you deplete it again. And so by the time you know it, your motivation
00:42:30
Speaker
Your focus has decreased as a result because you've used up too much dopamine. It's like a swimming pool. If you've got a baseline swimming pool, you've got a baseline amount of dopamine. And then, so it's called the tonic level of your dopamine. And then you have a run, you play music, everything's great, but they're both restopamine. You'll lose so that the dopamine will be released. That pool will go lower. Your baseline's going lower.
00:42:55
Speaker
And then if you then don't give it time to get back up to its baseline again, so the pool can't fill up again, you run again with the music again, you decrease your dopamine again, and yet you don't have as much anymore.
Managing Dopamine and Physiological Techniques
00:43:07
Speaker
So as a result, eventually the motivation for it reduces. However, if you just do it intermittently, so you're tripping with your brain, then which is what casinos do, then it means that sometimes you can use music and sometimes you don't, but don't ever do that in a planned way. Every three times I'm going to use music, don't do that.
00:43:24
Speaker
It's more like, I think I just use music today and then it gets a better effect. So that's one thing on the dopamine side, but on the flow state side, if you're going to use music to help you to, to get into the subconscious and creative flow state, I would say create something that is soothing, that is very neutral, very neutral. It doesn't mean a lot to you. It's not great. It's not negative, but it's very neutral.
00:43:52
Speaker
because otherwise what will happen with the music is you'll find that in the flow state, you'll be so busy listening to the music, sometimes it will be hard to really get yourself into the body. But with some music, it might do that. I'm not saying that all music won't. I'm saying you need to figure out if it's gonna work for you. But I would i would say it's gonna be neutral music, if anything, and to be able to get into that ah flow state. But for some people, that might be different. Yeah, okay.
00:44:22
Speaker
Um, there's loads more that I want to talk to you about and I'm just conscious of time. So I'm going to, I'm, we, we spoke about brain hacking before we, before we press recording, didn't we? And I've heard that yeah brain hacking being used more frequently in the sports. performance yeah Can you explain what it is and and share some practical tips that runners can start implementing straight away? Sure. So your feedback is a form of brain hacking. So brain hacking is where you're using tools and techniques.
00:44:51
Speaker
to optimize your brain function. That's what brain hacking is. So you're increasing your mental performance. And of course, the mental performance becomes physical performance. So involve strategies that help improve focus, visualization, that help with resilience, and also overall performance. So you're directly trying to figure out, so close state is a form of brain hacking. and So you're trying to, um train your brain to um perform at its best by using different techniques and tools. That's brain hacking. So one form of brain hacking is visualization. We've talked about glow state is another form. Neurofeedback is another form. and ah A mindset ritual, ah a ritual in the morning or a ritual before you do a run where you're almost like um
00:45:51
Speaker
Encouraging your brain to get in a particular way of thinking and being, the flow state. That's brain hacking. That's another form of brain hacking. Controlled breathing is another form of brain hacking. um And there's different types of breathing that you can do before you go on a run. And the physiological size, quite a good one. um So physiological size where you breathe in twice in your nose and then a long exhale out through your mouth.
00:46:17
Speaker
that's neuroscientifically proven to regulate your body and brain quite fast. So if you actually feel quite anxious or quite uptight or dysregulated, that can really help regulate your brain and your body. So physiological side, I think it's also called non-sleep deep rest and SDR. So again, you breathe in twice. Twice through your nose.
00:46:43
Speaker
like And then once out through your exhale out through your mouth longer. So twice through your nose. so And then. And then a long breath out. A long exhale out. So twice through the nose. And once out through the mouth.
00:47:00
Speaker
And how long would you like to do that for? I can imagine that was, I mean, that'd be great for calming you down at any point in life. Yeah. Anybody can do it. It's really, I use it with everybody, children, adults, and it's so incredibly, it works incredibly fast. It's really good. It really helps regulate. Yeah, calm your nerves great.
00:47:26
Speaker
I mean, you've seen athletes, you know, when they are starting to, but you can see them in their breathing because the pathth parasympathetic system and the sympathetic, so they breathe in to engage the sympathetic and breathe out to engage the parasympathetic. But physiological science
00:47:43
Speaker
and And it's amazing, I've actually had people in here in full blown panic attacks in the clinic. And I've done the physiological science and it's worked really well, really well, really fast. oh So that's something that you can do, as well as visualisation in a close state, practicing the mindfulness. and And you can do, you know, other things for brain hacking might be you use mantras in your head about then Yeah, I was going to ask about mantras because that that is something that a lot of runners do use. is that is Would that come under brain hacking with it? Yeah, that would come under brain hacking because you're training your brain to think a different way. But again, you know, mantras are great, but they're very conscious. To to actually create a mantra that's powerful, I would say you need to feel that in your body, not just say it, you need to feel it.
00:48:32
Speaker
So, um, for example, a mantra might be, um, um I can do this, um, ah or, um, what would another one be a mantra when you're running could be, I can do this. Um, now that's fine saying it, but if your body doesn't feel it, it's not going to do very much good, completely not.
00:49:00
Speaker
because you're staying it in a very conscious way. And remember we've talked about subconscious is a lot more powerful. So if you can help your body to feel, I can do this. Notice where you can feel it in your body and notice the sensation that goes with that, I can do this in your body and harness it. You harness it by breathing into that sensation. That will harness the activation of that mantra, I can do this.
00:49:30
Speaker
So again, it's a form of brain hacking, but I would say do this before a run, do it, practice it every day. Remember I said repetition, repetition, repetition. You've got to train this. It's got to be repeated, repeated, repeated. So as you're walking along the road, if you're in your house, if you're in your bedroom, anywhere, and you just say to yourself, I can do this. You need to feel that in your body and wherever you feel it,
00:49:59
Speaker
you breathe into it and that will start to activate a sense of, I can do this. Your body then says, I can do this. So when you run, your subconscious linking to your body feels it more. And so as a result, it has a lot more power than just saying a conscious thought that your subconscious can't hear. Don't that make sense? That's when mantras can really start to infiltrate A, the flow state, but B, the connection between mind and body, because that's what you need. Just saying it isn't going to do very much. okay when when you Can you do that the other way round? If I'm feeling great.
00:50:44
Speaker
yeah Can I then say to myself, I can do this, would that, would that work the same way? Because I'm, I don't know, I'm on a run and I just happen to feel good at that time. Can I just say to myself, then I can do this. Does it work the other way around? Can you feel good first and then play it? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I think it's a really good point because I think we tend not to be aware of the messages our body's giving us and we need to be more aware of them.
00:51:12
Speaker
Our bodies are giving us messages all the time. Every single day our body gives us messages. yeah And we wander around as if we don't have a body. We need to really get in tune with our bodies to hear what it's saying to us. So when it says, I can do this, embody that. Embody it, embody it, embody it and feel it. Because remember what I was talking about, subconscious has muscle memory. So if you embody that at the time, your subconscious locks it in place, aha, I've got it.
00:51:40
Speaker
So the next time you go out, your subconscious will say to you, you then say, I can do this. Your subconscious says, okay, I'll give you that because you've got it in a muscle memory. And as a result, you'll feel stronger and when you go on the run, but you've got to embody things. um Otherwise they don't mean very much because the brain can just ignore a thought because your subconscious will will deaden it.
00:52:08
Speaker
So that's why it's really good to embody, embody, embody, embody, embody things. Just explain embodying it for for some of you. Embodying it means that saying something, you need to feel that where that lands in your body. So if you said, um you know I am um i'm um don't know what can we have,
00:52:37
Speaker
and I'm greater, I want to be great at running or um i can I can achieve my personal best in three months. But when you say that, if you notice the sensation you get in your body when you say it to yourself, it might be a little flutter in your heart. It might be a small feeling in your stomach. It might be a tingling in your hands. It could be anything.
00:53:08
Speaker
but be very, very aware of the nuanced change in your body when you say that to yourself. And when you feel a change in any sensation in your body, no matter how small it is, really take that sensation and notice breathing
The Importance of Mental Training
00:53:24
Speaker
into it. What I mean by that is just put all of your attention onto that sensation. yes And notice that your breath can go to it. And as a result, it can bring alive the statement you've just made.
00:53:37
Speaker
So embodying means feel something in your body associated with a statement you've just said. Very similar to, for example, somebody says, I'm really scared. yeah When they feel really scared, their heart goes faster, their stomach might plumber. That's embodying fear. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to embody a statement of a strength, a mantra of where I want to be, a visualization of winning a race,
00:54:06
Speaker
I want to feel that in my body. So my body knows that when I'm running, this is where that it gives you a strength and it takes you to the flow state because you've embodied something um at a very subconscious level, because that's what your body is. um And then as a result of that, you will find when you go out and run, you will feel very different in your body.
00:54:30
Speaker
but not just saying a mantra won't be enough. and You've got to really feel it to get it into that subconscious. Yeah. So I suppose the thing that I really take away from this is that we're so keen as runners to run. It's a little bit like strength training. but Runners don't strength train enough. if We don't want to run. i mean and i And I think from from people who just like to run like myself through to but people who are perhaps you know really even elite level, probably don't train their mind enough. And it and it needs to be, like you say, regularly, it needs to be a part of your training. It does. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. And it's great you say it, Joe, because I think athletes generally, sports people generally, no matter what sport you're involved in, and whether you're a hobbyist or an elite athlete, we spend a lot of time training our bodies, training our bodies, training our bodies.
00:55:28
Speaker
but we forget that the actual, the brain controls the body. So if you don't train your brain enough, if you don't get in tune with what it's doing and try to find ways of really tapping in to the way that it works and understand how it works so that you can work with it, you can get your flow states, your visualization, your subconscious, et cetera, that will make you better physically because of the fact of controlling your brain more. You don't control your brain, your body,
00:55:56
Speaker
yeah You can do as much training as you want, but the two go hand in hand. And as I said, you go from good to great or from great to excellent or from excellent to elite. Once you start really getting into your brain and figuring out how to train it to help your body operate at its maximum, nevermind your brain, but once your brain is optimum, once your brain is functioning at that point, exercise becomes a lot easier. Training becomes a lot easier. And that's what I was talking about the flow state.
00:56:25
Speaker
is a lot more effortless. Sorry, your run becomes effortless because your flow state, you've actually trained your brain to get to a point where you are running, in a way it feels almost like you're floating, because you have trained yourself to get into that state. I really like the graph from what you've done today. If you do those kind of techniques, those training, and you do get more focused,
00:56:55
Speaker
and your mental training with you running, it comes but it can become a metaphor for your life, can't you? You literally transfer into into any part of your life, can't it? 100%. Absolutely. You can transfer all of this into the rest of your life. And I do think that, you know, we what we do in terms of exercise is very much reflected in our life. I mean, you know, many people run because it makes them feel good. We all know the evidence behind mental health and and how it can really help us with focus and concentration. We know all the studies about hippocampus and running.
00:57:24
Speaker
Um, but I think that, um, you in life, generally, if you can take everything we've been speaking about, not only is your running going to get better, but your life will get better and we'll feel better and it will help with motivation and focus. You know, how motivating sometimes and getting on a run is can be really hard. Um, and that might be another podcast about how you can motivate yourself. Cause there's lots of things you can do with that as well. But I think I'm hoping from today.
00:57:51
Speaker
what your listeners um will be hopefully taking away is about training the brain and is about making friends with your brain but in particular your subconscious.
00:58:04
Speaker
Brilliant. Well, it seems like a lovely time to wrap it up. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah. Thanks for sharing all that information with us. It's fascinating. Let's definitely do this again. And let's talk motivation, perhaps in the winter months, because that's when a lot of people connect with you online. Yes, if they, so they can connect with me on LinkedIn. So I'm,
00:58:32
Speaker
My company is called Kedris Clinics, K-E-D-R-A-S Clinics, or they can connect with me on LinkedIn as Dawn Harris, or just email me um at dawn at kedrisclinics.com. Great, and we'll include all that in the show now, so thank you ever so much for joining us. Great, thanks Jo, and speak to you soon.