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Episode 426: Asking for Blurbs, Unauthorized Biographies, and the Mystery of Aaron Rodgers with Ian O’Connor
636 Plays3 months ago
Ian O'Connor (@Ian_OConnor) is the author of several best-selling books. His latest is Out of the Darkness: The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers (Mariner Books).
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Supporting the CNF Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh hey CNFers, you know this show takes a lot of time and part of what keeps the lights on here at CNF Pot HQ is if you consider hiring me to edit your work or coach you through some of your work. A generous editor helps you see what you can't see. It could be a pitch, a proposal, an essay, maybe something as ambitious as a book. If you need help cracking the code, man, you can email me at creativenonfictionpodcast.gmail dot.com and we can start a dialogue.
00:00:27
Speaker
And there's also patreon dot.com slash cnfbot for a few bucks a month. He helps support the show and be part of a cool community of nonfiction writers. Depending on your tier, you get some face to face time with me to talk things out. Sometimes you just need to talk it out, man. You see a standard set and you try to reach that standard and we know you're probably going to fall short and try to get as close to it as possible.
00:00:59
Speaker
What a treat. What a treat
Introducing Ian O'Connor and 'Out of the Darkness'
00:01:01
Speaker
today. We have New York Times bestselling author Ian O'Connor, longtime sports journalist, sports columnist for outlets like ESPN dot.com and the New York Daily News, among others. Ian is the author of several biographies.
00:01:15
Speaker
No, on Coach Shushevsky, Coach Kay, Bill Belichick, Derek Jeter, and now his latest, Out of the Darkness, The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers. It's published by Mariner Books. For those who are not American football savvy, Rodgers is a Super Bowl winning quarterback, spent many years playing for the Green Bay Packers.
00:01:38
Speaker
And he was traded New York Jets and he got injured four plays into the 2023 season in his first start for his new team Heard his Achilles tendon He might have the most armed talent of any quarterback to play the game and he is no doubt an interesting thoughtful person.
00:01:58
Speaker
What drives me nuts about him is I feel like he needs to be the smartest person in the room, or he wants you to know he is.
Aaron Rodgers: From Hero to Controversial Figure
00:02:07
Speaker
Most notably when asked if he was vaccinated against the COVID-19 coronavirus, he said, yeah, I've been immunized. Nobody followed up because a room full of sports writers um and not epidemiologists will likely pick up on the difference between ah vaccination and immunization.
00:02:25
Speaker
And he went from one of the more celebrated athletes in the country to kind of an arrogant jerk overnight, a villain. ah Ian treats his subject with the utmost fairness, and it's a tremendous feat of writing and reporting.
00:02:40
Speaker
You read the book and you're like, oh my god, this is such an awesome dude. And in another chapter, you're like, holy shit, this guy's kind of an asshole. And the next chapter, you're like, wow, this guy's an amazing person. And the next chapter is like, oh, wow, he's kind of a dick. And you go back and forth like that the whole time. You're like, wow, this guy is just incredibly human. And it's a real testament to what Ian was able to do and how he handled the story. It's an amazing book.
00:03:03
Speaker
I complained ah that I had only 14 months to do my prefontane biography, and Ian did this one in, oh, I don't know, about a year. And he spoke with far more people than I did. You can't compare methodologies to books. Different subject matters account for different metrics. It's still amazing what he was able to do in a year.
00:03:24
Speaker
Incredible. Show notes to this episode more. New blog posts. My internet garden, if you will. All right, brandonamara.com. Hey, there you can also subscribe to my monthly rage against the Algorithm newsletter. Book recommendations, cool links, good vibes, man. First of the month, no spam. As far as I can tell, can't beat it. Talk to somebody else. They might be like, yeah, yeah, you can beat it. But not me. Ian O'Connor.
Etiquette of Asking for Book Blurbs
00:03:49
Speaker
talks about the best way to ask a writer you admire for a blurb, why he needs a window in his writing space, and the difference between authorized and unauthorized biographies, and which one, in his opinion and mine, is the best.
00:04:05
Speaker
So that's what we're going to do. We're going to get right after it. Right now, CNFers. All right. I should add that when I recorded this interview with Ian, it was when I had pretty much lost my voice. And ah and Ian's audio isn't the the warmest or the the tightest. it's ah it's ah It could be a little hard to hear. um Not every connection is great. A lot of that has to do with something. Internet or ah microphone, tech, stuff of that nature.
00:04:33
Speaker
So you're just going to have to roll with it. The content of the conversation is such that I hope that the audio doesn't really matter because ah it's good stuff. It's good stuff. Three, two, one, riff.
Ian O'Connor's Writing Process and Environment
00:04:56
Speaker
What does your workspace look like or your ideal workspace so you can really kind of walk in and get in the zone? Yeah, I have a home office and basically it's converted small bedroom. And I always feel like it's important to have windows that I'm looking out of while I'm working at the same time. I feel like when I'm staring at a wall that that can be distracting. And I do feel like I need windows. I don't know why that is.
00:05:27
Speaker
when i'm writing but I do occasionally like to peek outside and see what's going on. And yeah, it's pretty, it's a small room. And I usually do my best work at night, late at night when everyone's in bed and the house is quiet. And that's usually when I i do a fair amount of my writing when I'm working on a book.
00:05:50
Speaker
And during the day, really mostly reserved for reporting time, just calling as many people as humanly possible to have any connection to the subject. So that's my process. It's not a terribly profound process, but that's so far what pretty much work for me yeah you know in talking with andre abuse the third like his thing is he has like ah bunker and his house and it's and everything's lit up except maybe just like a little lamp it almost looks like an interrogation room
00:06:22
Speaker
And so he doesn't want any exterior distractions. And I imagine something like that would get claustrophobic for someone like yourself. We at least need some That's ambient light in a way to so far what's avert your pretty much worked for eyes to something other me. than a wall or your screen. Yeah, a lot of people in my block say they walk their dogs and wait for the girlfriend to bike rides. I live on a circle, so we have a bit of an oval.
00:06:46
Speaker
So although that I think a lot of people would find that distracting if you're trying to be locked in writing a book, sometimes I just need a break and just look outside and do some people watching. I need that. And I could not, I don't think I could do it in a room with just four walls and no windows. I think that would try.
00:07:05
Speaker
right And again, at at night is really, and I think that comes from most of my career. I was a sports columnist yeah and I was just so used to writing on deadline after night games. That's when my my energy really kicked in the most of my career. And so that still holds true. I think I really do my best work at night.
00:07:30
Speaker
So that frees me up. And during the day, of course, actually people are available to be called and to talk about whatever subject you're working on. So yeah, I try to do hundreds of interviews and then piece them together. Obviously use the best anecdotes and really a book to me about I've generally done on author major sport and books are really a series of hopefully very interesting anecdotes that you're reading a narrative thread through. And that's how I go about it.
00:08:04
Speaker
Oh, that's great. And yeah, you brought up a few threads there that I have in my notes, but I'll tug on the authorized versus unauthorized yeah aspect of it. And, um you know, it's for people who might not understand what one is versus the other or the benefits of one versus the other, um they just maybe explain a bit about, you know, the dichotomy between the two and, you know, what is preferred and given your experience.
Ethics of Writing Unauthorized Biographies
00:08:30
Speaker
Well, I could say, Brendan, this is just my opinion. The preferable way of doing it is unauthorized. And it's funny because a lot of people think that's a dirty word. It's the unauthorized, and I think it's a trashy book. And no, it just means that you are not working as part of a collaboration with the subject. And so it's really pure it's certainly more a, it's pure journalism. And now I'm not knocking the collaborative approach There's certainly a great redeeming value to that as well. But my preference is to do unauthorized biographies. I've never done a collaboration. I may do one soon. I'd actually like to try that and and just see what it's like. From the outside looking in, it looks like it would be somewhat easier, although there is nothing easy about doing the flow. And I think you know that.
00:09:26
Speaker
and So i but an unauthorized biography is my cup of tea. And i obviously, at the start of the process, I inform the subject that I'm doing this. There's nothing secret about it. I'm very transparent. And for instance, when I started unauthorized biography of derick jeter I was a commist in New York. I knew him. We had a professional relationship that was pretty good. I basically covered his entire career, not as a beat writer, but as a commist in New York. So when I decided to do the unauthorized biography, Yankees weren't spring training.
00:10:06
Speaker
And on my own dime, I hopped on a plane to Tampa, and I wanted to tell him to his face. I didn't want him to hear it through the grapevine that I was about to start this project or that I was doing it. So I went up to his locker and talked to him and told him, I said, I just came down here to tell you that I'm doing this. And he asked me why, and he said, hey, my career's not over yet. And I said, no, but you're about to become the first Yankee ever to get 3,000 hits.
00:10:36
Speaker
And I think this is the right time to do it. So he ended up cooperating to some degree. He didn't give me a big five-hour sit-down, but he said he would talk to me at his locker and like he would during the normal course of business in the season. And he did do that. Yeah, I think it's important to tell your subject right away and not let that person hear it from somebody. else so when aaron rogers was traded from Green Bay to the Jets at his introductory press conference. That's when I told him, because I didn't really want to hear from somebody else. So I think that's important. And also when I'm done with the book, the first copy I hand somebody, I want that somebody to be the subject of the book. Oh, yeah. that's Yeah, it's a good call.
00:11:25
Speaker
you know when you're dealing with ah you know the people you work with are you high-profile public figures and and it got me thinking about and you in your alluding to it already is the the the what permission you need or like what permission do you need to proceed in some way not that not that they you need the green light from say Jeter or Rogers but there is a certain Element of like you said like I don't want you to be blindsided But this is what I what I'm doing and I guess sometimes you can also run the risk of them Stonewalling certain people you want to talk to again. I imagine you've run into that countless times Yeah have Bill Belichick was that was that was classic he was actively recruiting people
00:12:10
Speaker
talking And people are surprised to learn that you don't need somebody's permission, public figures permission, to do a book on that person. So if you wanted to write a book on Donald Trump, you don't have to ask permission, you just do the book.
00:12:27
Speaker
and hope that he doesn't block people from talking to you and hope that he talks to you too. And again, and I didn't really fully answer your question about authorized versus unauthorized. In authorized biography, you're telling that person's story, that person's truth as he or she sees it. That's why I prefer the unauthorized biography because I just think it's closer to a pure form of journalism.
00:12:50
Speaker
as opposed to just telling that person's truth. But I do see, listen, there have been some great collaborations that I've read that are just fantastic and have tremendous value. I do plan at some point in doing one of those, hopefully.
Challenges of Writing About Aaron Rodgers
00:13:10
Speaker
ae
00:13:12
Speaker
have my druthers it's so this blue ive gone ah of Duke, Jeter, Paul Palmer, Jack Nicholson, now Aaron Rodgers. Right, and speaking of someone who does some of the most brilliant, unauthorized journalistic biographies is ah someone you deeply admire, and David Marinus. And yeah, and ah you you you wrote on ah on your website that he wrote one of your favorite books, and I wonder what that title is, and what what about it inspired you? So it was a biography of Vince Lombardi on pride still matters.
00:13:47
Speaker
favor time. Vince Lombardi, are you familiar with Lombardi? Oh, yes. Okay. So I see the Super Bowl trophy named after me won five championships with the Green Bay Packers. He grew up in Brooklyn. He actually coached at my high school in Englewood, New Jersey, St. Cecilia High School. And when he was the coach there in the 40s, St. Cecilia was the number one high school football team in America.
00:14:16
Speaker
And Vincent Barre lived eight houses from my childhood house in Angler, New Jersey. And so I was always fascinated by him. And and that book was tremendous and now it's of course has done a number of tremendous books. And yeah, so that that it's also, I find those books to be inspiring. And you see a standard set and you try to reach that standard that know you're probably going to fall short try to get as close to it as humanly possible. J.R. Moynier is another brilliant writer and has done a lot of collaborative works that are off the charts great. And again, that's a standard that you try to reach as an author. And it's extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, to get there, at least if you're me. But that's the goal, to try to reach as high and get as close as you possibly can.
00:15:11
Speaker
yeah And on your on your blog, ah when you had a ah screenshot of ah the blurbs for Belichick, and he wrote, you know, Marinus, Shaughnessy, and Wojnarowski, you know, people you deeply admired blurbed the book. And I, you know, blurbing is, you know, yeah everyone is busy and it's time consuming. And you always want to like knock on someone's door you admire to blurb your book. And I wonder, just through your experience, and and I imagine asking for blurbs and then ah Being asked I imagine countless times like how do you begin to ask people for blurbs? And maybe what's the wrong way to ask someone for a blurb? Yeah, that's a that's it a very good question I think the wrong way is to expect an answer and to expect an answer to yes. Yeah, I go into no expectation when I ask someone and I always I'll write a note an email and
00:16:05
Speaker
And I think this is the right way to do it. It's just very, and say I'd be honored if you did this. but i understand how busy authors are and how busy you are. And I would take absolutely no offense if you need to take a pass. I understand. So either way, it's no problem at all if you can't do it. And so to me, that's the right way to go about it, where you have no expectation and you let that person you're asking to know that it's perfectly okay to say no. And I try to always say yes, I don't know if i've ever said no if I did, it was one or two times where I just and really didn't even have the time to do that. And and often people would say, well, it what's it going to take? 27 seconds to put together three sentences of no, but you have to read some of the chapters. And generally, when you're blurbing, you're not reading the entire book. People don't have time to do that. So you're this is how I would do it. If I get a yes, I would then send that person
00:17:11
Speaker
Well, sometimes I'll send, if I have a PDF of the entire book, it's understanding I'm trying to read the whole thing, but chapters one and seven and 13 are of particular interest and I think capture the essence of this book, if you get a chance to read those. And that's how I approach it, but very gently when I'm asking, because it's a big ask. So I try to return that favor and I don't know if I've ever said, no, I can't rule it out.
00:17:39
Speaker
but if i did it was just because I absolutely could not devote any time to it. You already talked about it so about um when you when when you pick a subject and you're like step one, I was going to ask you what step one is, but it's telling them that you're going to do the project. So what's ah then are like steps two and three and maybe your first five phone calls as you're starting, yeah as you want to gather all that information.
Methodical Approach to Biography Research
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, I've had this conversation with Jeff. Oh, nice.
00:18:10
Speaker
And it's it's almost, maybe people would look at it as too formulaic, but generally speaking with my books, I start with the present day introduction of some sort, something very current, and then start from the beginning of of of that life and really sort of deliver a a chronological narrative on on that person's life.
00:18:36
Speaker
And a lot of writers and authors hate that approach and just don't do it that way. But to me, I just feel that's the best way to go about it. I have yet to find a a better way, but that's just me. And so oftentimes I'll start my reporting the same way at the beginning of that person's life and try to find elementary school teachers and obviously try to talk to relatives who are there during the childhood.
00:19:06
Speaker
friends who grew up with that person. And so again, it's not terribly profound that way of going about it, but that's my that's my approach. And so, and I do tell the subject, I'm i'm about to do this. So I guess I'm giving ah that person a heads up that if he or she wants to start calling people to warn them not to talk to me, they have that opportunity.
00:19:36
Speaker
And I'll deal with it. I feel like there are people who initially said no and then called back later and said yes. And i've I have a very gentle approach and I feel like nobody owes me anything. And that's how i I go into a phone call with the person I'm calling. There's no idea. I'm a stranger and I'm doing this project. It's not a collaborative work. And they usually ah ask that question.
00:20:04
Speaker
Okay, does Aaron Rodgers know you're doing this? Yes, okay. Is he working with you on it? Is this his book with you or is this just your book? No, no, no, it's an independent project, it's just my book.
00:20:16
Speaker
Okay. So they have to make a decision then. And like in the case of Belichick and Aaron Rodgers, two very polarizing figures, and Jeter, because he was, Derek Jeter was a very private, distant guy. I got a lot of, well, I need to contact Derek Jeter, Aaron Rodgers, with Bill Belichick. And if they say, okay, then I'll do it.
00:20:38
Speaker
So sometimes they said okay, and sometimes they didn't say okay. So if I never heard from that person again, I figured they they didn't get me okay. I don't always stick to this religiously, but my reporting process mirrors my writing process in the book, and that is start with the subject's youth and report in chronological order.
00:21:05
Speaker
And how long does it take you typically to find the through line in the narrative or the wireframe on which you can hang the narrative of ah of a book? I would say maybe when I'm 100 interviews in, I'll see it. And I usually do between 225 and twenty five and 375 theater readers, pretty books. And I would say, yeah, 100 interviews and i i think i I think I have a good sense of it. And does the interviewing reveal the narrative more than say the newspaper archive? 100%, yeah. I think they'll both help, but certainly the stories you're getting from the people who are there and sometimes the credit accounts aren't
00:21:57
Speaker
entirely accurate and they're incomplete, and the human beings who are there on the ground witnessing this person's life as if unfolded, to me that's where you're always getting the best stuff. And sometimes, particularly with very private figures, and those other figures aren't really profiled in these books,
00:22:16
Speaker
say Belichick for instance. Tom Brady and another the stars of his program, his team, they're going to be a little hesitant to talk to me because a lot of those ah players are former or the New England Patriots, we might be employed by the Patriots still, and so they have something to lose. And so you might not get cooperation at all from those people, or they might not tell you the full story because they're concerned about
00:22:48
Speaker
the implications for them, and they see it in print. There are bottom of the roster, middle of the roster players, and Belichick coached there for more than two decades, that were in the same meetings with Tom Brady, heard the same stories, have witnessed the same events, and they only played one or two years with the Patriots, two or three years in the NFL, then they had to get real jobs in the real world. And they've been forgotten by Belichick and everyone else. But they're out there.
00:23:17
Speaker
working in in offices, again, in in and the real world but and and not the fantasy world of sports. So a lot of times I find that those people are the most valuable because they speak freely. They they don't have a gig, a paid gig with the rhythm patriots or New York Yankees anymore. So a lot of times the best material in my books comes from those people who weren't there They weren't stars, they weren't there for 15 years. It was brief, but they witnessed and heard the same things that Bill Belichick said in those meetings, and or that Derek Jeter did in the clubhouse in a talk before a big game, something to that effect. So I guess it's the old story of Jimmy Breslin interviewing the gravedigger at JFK's Memorial Service. yeah
00:24:17
Speaker
And it's it's always looking for that person. Oh, and just for fun, I have included in the show notes a pointer dot.org story that analyzes Jimmy Breslin's gravedigger column ah from the JFK funeral. So fun thing to check out if you want to explore it more. Who had a role, a profound one, but was very likely overlooked by by everyone else, at least in my profession. I'm fairly certain it was Breslin who did that column on the person digging into the ground a hole for the president's casket. And that that that's always been in the back of my head when I start a book is to find those people.
00:25:06
Speaker
and I think that they they they are just more willing to give you a full picture Oh, for sure. What a great North Star that is to to find that find those people. And they are there are quite literally hundreds of them, especially and more of the contemporary biographies that you traffic in. ah Because most people are most likely alive that you're talking to. Well, and and I think you you might have gotten this or found this with Pete Montaigne. But sometimes you call these people, and now they think it's a practical joke.
00:25:43
Speaker
Well, they haven't been talked to. Nobody's been looking for them for years and years. And I only played and a season and a half with whatever organization it was. Like, why are you calling me? Well, you were right there too. You witnessed this just like Derek Jeter or Tom Brady did. And why wouldn't I call you?
00:26:02
Speaker
So, but I've gotten a lot of that from people, figures like that where they got the message, they thought it was a prank. They didn't know whether or not to call me back. They had to Google me to see that I was legitimate, somewhat legitimate. So, I don't know if you've had that experience, but I've had that a lot. Oh, for sure. I wouldn't say practical joke, but I've caught some people so off guard. They're like, oh my God, how did you find me?
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. It's a lot easier today than when I'm older than you. I'm um going to be 60 in a couple of weeks. but before on the internet, it was a lot harder to find people. Yeah. Oh my God. Well, that dovetails nicely and into another another question about, you know in the absence of saying, you'll say a source, you're like, oh, or who are the five people? i'd like I should contact and they give you contact info or whatever. um what's What's your go-to resource for finding phone numbers or or emails? Because this is ah yeah this is the crux of it. And it can be, you got to do some detective work.
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah, and and it could be as simple as whitepages.com. You'd be surprised sometimes you find numbers and you're surprised that they exist on something called whitepages.com. Yeah.
00:27:14
Speaker
Another resource is FastPeopleSearch.com. Now the contact info isn't always up to date or relevant, but oftentimes it'll get you a phone number that's at least close or I might misreference someone and you get a family member and it works. It's a bit arduous, but it works. And you can also remove your name from that database too. so Don't tell your sources that but if you don't want to be on there get your name off of there But lean on it for when you're looking to find some of those diamonds in the rough Or i'll go to i'll go to the nextus le is nexus nexus i'll go to uh, if you google there are all these different Home sites now numbers And i'm willing to call
00:28:05
Speaker
five or six wrong numbers to finally get to existing number. You have to be willing to have people just hang up on you. Or bring cursing into the I hate to bother people. It's not like I want to bother you, but I really, really, really want to find the truth of being.
00:28:35
Speaker
You have to be willing to go through some of that shit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's um so some of the dead numbers you call and you reach one voicemail because they almost always goes right to voicemail because they're like, who the hell is this anonymous person calling me? And um often the numbers I come across, it might actually be the 50-year-old son of a 75-year-old person I'm trying to get in touch with. You're like, hey, this is his this is his son, but I'll put you in touch with him. or or that's for that Yeah, that's that beautiful.
00:29:05
Speaker
I'm thrilled when I get those issues. It's like, hey, I'm sorry I bothered you because you're not the person, but you're related to the person, and now you're going to connect me with the subject or whoever you're trying to reach. That is a beautiful thing. Yeah, and I imagine with um the Aaron Rodgers book, because you tabled a current LeBron book for for this right around the time of the the the trade and then Rodgers'
Rushed Timeline for Rodgers' Biography
00:29:32
Speaker
injury. and I was kind of like just doing the math on the runway that you had to report, research, and craft this book. And I don't know, I'm ball parking maybe nine months. like Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a pretty short runway. It turned into a year because I had to go back into it now. I had handed in the manuscript in January.
00:29:55
Speaker
and And he hadn't talked to me. Obviously, I made a whole bunch of requests. um March going forward and I didn't know if he'd ever talk to me. I thought when he got injured that would improve my chances because now he's not playing it. Yeah, he's going to be doing rehab, but I just thought there'd be more opportunities to maybe fly out to California, watch a rehab session and talk to him, but he wasn't playing. That didn't happen. He never said yes or no and just through the Jets I kept getting
00:30:31
Speaker
just a whole bunch of nothingness and difference and non-answers. So it looked like he was just choosing not to talk to me and and without giving me the candidate to know. But in February, I get a call from the Jets that Aaron's now willing to talk to you.
00:30:50
Speaker
so Obviously, I call my editor, and this is a narrative book, too, by the way. So so this is the mar book, and so I call ah Peter Hubbard, and yeah, he goes, obviously, you have to go back into it. So I fly out to...
00:31:06
Speaker
Los Angeles is a bomb scare on my plane on the way out there. We have to land in Chicago. They have to check the plane for like seven, eight hours. We actually got cleared to take off again and go to Los Angeles, go to Malibu where he lives. And so obviously I would have loved 15 hours with a guy to talk about his entire life. I had told the Jets, even if you gave me an hour, I'll fly to California.
00:31:33
Speaker
I would have gone for 40 minutes. So when I got to his house, I had no idea how long he was going to give me. So I had to pick and choose, okay, what do I need to ask him? And I had to f throw some things overboard that I would have loved to ask him about. But I figured I have an hour. And if he gets sick of me after 50 minutes, he's probably gonna ask me to leave. yeah So I had to, I had to pick and choose and prioritize and turned down and getting two hours. And I could tell at the end of the second hour, he was just no on a subject. He was done and he was getting his answers to get shorter and he's kind of fidgeting. Okay. So I got two hours of really, it was a fact checking session as opposed to the real in depth interview about his life. And.
00:32:22
Speaker
But he made he made the book better, and so i I very much appreciated that. But then I go back, redo the book, hand it in, second time. And then he did some podcasts where he went on and on about some conspiracy theories. And I'm trying to, and that was like in March.
00:32:44
Speaker
I remember. So after I sat him to the RFK Junior BP story breaks and then CNN broke story hitting with that Sandy Hook ah conspiracy theory story. So all kinds of things happened and I kept having to update the book and I didn't have access to him anymore. He wasn't, he didn't respond. I tried to be engaging and I didn't get anything.
00:33:13
Speaker
So the the book kept being reopened and I kept having to move more material back into it and and write new material about some of the conspiracy theories. And I'm trying to remember what the Jimmy Kimmel thing was. And I think that was more towards the end of the football season.
00:33:30
Speaker
It's in the book. But anyway, so i I was still working on it and revising it in March, April. So it really, it turned into a year process. Now, usually my books are two year, it's a two year process. Belichick was really more free. And of course, Aaron, haven't been on the planet as long as some of the people are still following. Yeah.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, it was, I wanted this book to come out while went while he was there. And if there's a possibility this would be his final year, I think he'll actually play one more. But particularly after the injury, I thought that we need to have this book come out for this season. So I left my job at the New York Post. I was a columnist there, a sports columnist. And so for the first time, I worked on a book where I didn't have another job.
00:34:21
Speaker
Every other book I did, I was working for ESPN, or New York Daily News, or cadet, USA Today. And that was a challenge in and of itself, because it was like having two full-time jobs. But I felt confident I could do the same kind of thorough job on this book in a shorter period of time, because I was not working the day job anymore.
00:34:44
Speaker
there's There's a moment, it's actually towards the end of the book, which I think is a really telling anecdote.
Rodgers' Complex Personality and Family Estrangement
00:34:50
Speaker
um When Rogers, he dresses as John Wick for Halloween, and you know you wrote like of Wick, was he a good guy, bad guy, anti-hero? Who the hell was this guy and when he was out of costume? That's referring to Rogers. and you know like and And what exactly was behind that mask that he often refused to wear?
00:35:10
Speaker
And I know that really in in a lot of ways sums up they had the subtitle subtitle of this book, which is this guy is kind of an enigma. He is a bit of a mystery. And in ah what was it like for you just through the process of your research and your rigor of trying to peel back that onion to try to get to the core of it as best you could? Yeah, I would say it was the most challenging.
00:35:32
Speaker
task I've had in trying to answer those questions. Belichick, there was a mystery about him. He was a distant figure, but I also thought at the same time he was the same character through his entire coaching career. Aaron Rodgers actually was a good guy. He was one of the good guys until August of 2021 when he said, yeah, that those words changed his whole public life.
00:36:00
Speaker
Up until that point, he was considered one of the more socially aware players in the NFL. He supported Colin Kaepernick in his right to protest. He supported players who were kneeling during a fan during the national anthem. He yelled at an anti-Muslim slur. I believe that was after the terrorist attack in Paris. And President Obama thanked him for doing that.
00:36:26
Speaker
e So, and he he supported and was involved with legitimately a charitable cause for the Congo. And I just wondered how many athletes really did bad and things like that. And how many white athletes said, yeah, Colin Kaepernick was kept out of it. So he was really looked at as one of the good guys in yeah NFL and sports in general, and then he became a villain. Just like that, that sequence, August 2021 saying he can immunize and basically misleading everyone in the room and people who listen around the country. And then in November, it it turns out he's not vaccinated and he has COVID and now he's got to explain it. That changed his whole
00:37:20
Speaker
image and in the course of his public life. Ever since then, he's not been looked at as one of the He's been the opposite. I found it to very challenging. obviously estrangement from his family, which to me seems like should have been solved or ended years ago. There are still family members who don't know exactly why the estrangement exists, including his parents. and They're not sure a why. So I think it was more a death by a thousand cuts as opposed to some singular reason why why that estrangement exists and why
00:38:00
Speaker
There is, I don't know if you saw it, but there was a moment last summer at Lake Tahoe between Aaron and his father. Do you remember seeing that in the book? Oh yes, yep. Okay, so they hug, they have an emotional, I love you, the father's crying. It's brief, I'm not allowed to, might be 15, 20 seconds. But it's the only time, I was struck by Ed Rogers, the father, saying to me,
00:38:27
Speaker
that because he was looking for his son. I think think Aaron had just played the knife hole of that golf course. And he was following his son. He was hoping for a moment with him, but he lost him from him. He lost where he was. Then he turned and there Aaron was standing, I don't know, 15 feet away from him, looking at him. And he said, I froze because it had been so long since we looked at each other that I didn't even know how to act or what to say.
00:38:55
Speaker
But I found that to be a pretty powerful scene and moment and perhaps suggesting that Aaron is trying to find a way back. I think that was the first baby step towards that. And I think the road to reconciliation is going to run through his father. His father was his idol and his hero. He said that when he was younger and likely the family member he has the least issues with. So I'm hopeful. I'd love to see that happen.
00:39:26
Speaker
It does happen. It would be Aaron and his father first coming together and then see about everybody else. Yeah, ahla the island is one of the more riveting chapters that that you wrote. And it's like you you kind of tease this estrangement and that that you alluded to there with the Tahoe title thing early in the book. And then come chapter 10 about, no at least with my galley, 273 pages in, you know we kind of get to the crux of how you get exiled.
00:39:52
Speaker
and uh it was pretty riveting stuff and i wonder just you know you can explain the island because his parents aren't the only one on there and uh you know and how people get there and can they get off because someone did get off the island if you yes jordan russell is best friend if you long aaron robert really end up on that island and you think that
00:40:15
Speaker
He is, I mean, Jeter would like that too. One slight, he might not get a second chance. He might be done with me. Aaron Rodgers, you could be dead to him after one misstep. And it might not even be a misstep, but it's a misstep in his eyes. That's what matters.
00:40:31
Speaker
um
00:40:33
Speaker
Yeah. And again, there wasn't one reason and there were family members who were still baffled by it. The crux of it really is, and there's there's a lot of his or her own truth in this drama, and there's a lot of he said, he said, and he said, she said. I think the parents, to start with parents, they did not like Olivia Munn at all, and she did not like him, and Olivia Munn the actress. And so starting back in December of 2014,
00:41:07
Speaker
Everything seemed fine for the most part, and they made plans to see him play at Tampa Bay at Christmas time. And Aaron then has this dreadful game at Buffalo right after that, the worst passer rating in his career. And that evening, Munn calls his parents, who were back in Chico, California, and tells them she doesn't want them going to Tampa just to see her boyfriend. She doesn't want them around.
00:41:34
Speaker
And they claim they have no idea why she felt that way. It was an angry phone call. They were blindsided by it. And I asked them, did you, when you were with them in Green Bay, did you make a disparaging remark of some sort that they said, no, we did not? And so um that contentious phone call really initiates a period of nearly 10 years where Aaron has virtually no contact with his family. The parents blame Olivia.
00:42:03
Speaker
But both Aaron and Olivia, now Olivia didn't talk to me for the book, but she talked to Annie Cullen, and that was an interview she gave some years ago, and she said that both Aaron, and Aaron confirmed this to me, say that his problem with his family existed before he started dating him. I mean, as far as his parents are concerned, and Aaron, I think religion was a part of it. For example, Darla, his mother, is very different, particularly.
00:42:29
Speaker
And she's opposed to premarrow sex. And she was really upset when one would talk publicly about her sex life, even joking me. And she was even opposed to Aaron sharing the room with her or or any girlfriend, even after he had been in the NFL for years. And that really bothered him. Aaron told me there were issues he just did not want to discuss with public consumption.
00:42:56
Speaker
But religion was, I think, a bigger part of it years ago. But his mother really being strict in that context that he had an issue with that. Another part of it was his feeling that family members were taking generosity for granted and were we're too eager to capitalize on his fame. And I had some quotes in the book.
00:43:20
Speaker
that I think really sort of capture the way Aaron felt, including one from Jordan Russell, his best friend who ended up exiled on the island for a number of years. And all of a sudden, one day out of the blue, Aaron called him and said, I want you back in my life. And Russell just like said, hey, I demand your respect. If I'm coming back, I need your respect. Aaron promised that you'd give him that, and they reunited. but Jordan Russell said, if Aaron feels his family or other people in his life have laid claim to something based on his efforts, Aaron will then go out of his way to make sure they earn the wrong way. And I think that's a very telling quote. and He knows Aaron as well as anyone. And I think his due coach, a few, Craig Rigby, is still very close to him. And I know I have a quote in the book where he says people were hanging on his coattails
00:44:17
Speaker
trying to take advantage of him. He wasn't naming names, but it's clear he's talking about family members particularly. And he's close to the family. And he said that he took care of, he got tired of taking care of people. And he said that his two brothers one time that he got on their ass because they were Saying some some negative things about Aaron to Craig, who doesn't get involved in the family drama, because he has relationships, good relationships with everyone in the family. But he said there was this one time, I think they were out, and we were conjuring, we were talking shit about Aaron, and he basically said, that's enough, I don't say that shit in public, he'll be talking about it now either. So Craig Rigsby was was a big believer in Aaron, and how generous he had been, he had bought his parents
00:45:07
Speaker
brand new house built on the house and maybe did a lot for his brothers too and he just felt that Aaron wasn't being appreciated and that Aaron felt that way at the same time. So it's a mess. I mean, to me, it's a living organism that should have been killed off like six or seven years ago. And I just think Aaron doesn't know how to kill it. And it's easier to just let it fester and go on forever than to actually confront it.
00:45:37
Speaker
and ended, because some of the things that like his older brother who claimed did that bothered him were silly. And a lot of it it seems silly to me, even if he's got a couple of other issues that perhaps are a little more troubling that he doesn't want to talk about. I don't know what they are. I just think there's no way this should be a mere 10-year string based on everyone I talked to, including his aunts who were close to him when he was a kid, his grandmother. um She couldn't speak on the phone, but she sent me a link in the email to answer the questions. And the friends who were close to him, Jordan Russell even, saying, yeah, this should be over.
00:46:21
Speaker
Does the punishment here really fit the crime? This was a that part of it too. And I talked to a lot of people, never talked before about it publicly. But a lot of those people, a number of those people still don't know exactly why the estrangement still exists.
00:46:37
Speaker
right and and What's wild about the the arc of his career also, here is someone who has no scholarship offers, he has to go to yeah asked to sit out a year by a potential Division III coach, and then he goes to junior college, he plummets down the draft board,
00:46:56
Speaker
And yet he still has this belief in himself to
Resilience in Rodgers' Career
00:46:59
Speaker
endure all that. And I think of just as a writer or a journalist, it's like if you're trying to plug your way and move your way up the ranks and you just keep hitting the wall and you're not getting hired or you're getting fired or cut or whatever, eventually you just say like, I guess I'm just not good enough. And you resign yourself to something else. But with all that evidence coming at him, he still had belief in himself. And I just wonder what you make of that.
00:47:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting because in high school, in senior year, he went back to play baseball. He was a great young baseball player. His father thought he was going to be a major leader. But once he got into high school, he left baseball and focused on football. He played a 3.4-meter basketball and focused on football. But in senior year, after he got no scholarship offers, after his senior year of football, it was senior season.
00:47:49
Speaker
The baseball coach, Ron Souza, convinces him to play baseball for his senior season. And Aaron says ah in the book that that gave me my confidence back at the time to get back on the mound, strike out loud people. It just lit a fire inside of me again. It had a fire that had been extinguished by colleges of New Orleans during my senior season of football. And I think Craig Rigsby saved the rest. I think Rigsby lived, he didn't even know it, but he lived a few houses away from behind him, a short walk to their house for his recruiting business, whatever. But to to convince him, and and the and Darla was like, my son's got a 13-10, and I said, he's not going to community college. And Rigsby was like, no, you don't understand. We're going to send him to a division one school quickly.
00:48:46
Speaker
We're going to give him that platform. He's a division one player, but he needs to to go this route. We'll take care of him when we get happening. Yeah, you have to give him a lot of credit because he was completely overlooked at pretty much every step of the way. And I was sitting in his backyard in Malibu where the Pacific Ocean is basically his backyard. We're sitting on a block overlooking the Pacific Ocean and bought that house for um um been to go
00:49:19
Speaker
twenty eight million dollars and made it clearly he didn't buy it with danneica patrick boy by his mind one be But I felt like you this is pretty impressive this guy who didn't have any scholarship offers playing in a nowhere place in Northern California No recruiters ever went nobody ever went north in Sacramento And he became one of the all-time greats in the NFL, really through the singular force of his will. And he doesn't really get a lot of credit for that. I think in part because Brady won seven Super Bowls and he only won one. And his postings and record is a little spotty. But man, when you think of where he came from and what he achieved before time NFL MVP,
00:50:05
Speaker
And let's face it, if he had Belichick as his coach, he'd have multiple Super Bowls. I'm not saying he'd have seven or six that Brady won with Belichick, but he'd have three or four if he had that system and that off offensive coordinator.
00:50:21
Speaker
Daniels and all that. I really yeah didn't have a terrible coach, but he had coaches who were better than average and nothing more than that. So I think that is an overlooked part of his story that this is a self-made man who deserves a lot of credit for what he achieved.
00:50:40
Speaker
I love the anecdote from his friend Michaela in high school where he said he took notes on himself, he criticized himself, he looked at his strong points and his weak points, he was a student of the game even then. And I love that degree of personal inquiry, of interrogating not only your strengths but to try to level up your weak points as well. And I think that's very telling and I think a lot of us can can learn to do that degree of self-inquiry into our own professions.
00:51:08
Speaker
And a guy who never went out drinking, really never. In junior college, college, I play a late night game of poker with a friend on the team, but just was never, was just so committed to being a success in this chosen field. And yeah, I don't think he gets credit for that either.
00:51:31
Speaker
His work ethic is is really strong, always have been. I know it's been questioned late in this two practices to go to Egypt, but I think that speaks to his intellectual curiosity about the world, which I see as positive. and so but But he is ah he's a very unique character and very much self-made. I think the NFL, as much as He's some a lot of his wounds in recent years are self-inflicted But the NFL and I close the book with this line for a reason is he is I think the best interview in the week
00:52:17
Speaker
if you don't agree of what he's saying. He is a very engaging, thoughtful talker and thinker. And you can fill it up like very few who I've covered over the years in the NFL. And he's a content machine. yeah You have to admit that. And and so this will this will be a fascinating season because of of the waste of last year.
00:52:42
Speaker
And this might be his last best chance to win another ring. So if he could ever do that for the New York Jets of Charlie Brown fan chimes, like the Jets, what that would do for his legacy, I think we can gather.
00:52:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. you You write in the late in the book too that he played all of four plays last year, but he was still the most talked about player in the NFL, like his own news cycle. It's really that, that really speaks to his, his influence in the game. And to your point of the league is far more interesting with him in it, like him or, or hate him. Yeah. I don't know if brean if you watch ESPN in the morning ever.
00:53:19
Speaker
but During the training camp, all they do is talk about Aaron Rodgers. Now, they talk about the Dallas Cowboys and back Prescott because it's America. Aaron Rodgers gets talked about more than anyone else, maybe in pro sports right now in this country. And so, yeah, he can roll out of bed and create a new cycle like that. That's one of the reasons why I did this book. And sometimes when you see what comes out of his mouth, you wish he did not create that new cycle.
00:53:49
Speaker
He's reckless with his words like he was on the McAfee show. with He did not go on that show intending to suggest that Jimmy Kimmel was on the Epstein list. But his good friend and co-host, the McAfee co-host A.J. Hawk blurted out something about Epstein's list and then Aaron got reckless with his words and the way he was trying to get back at Kimmel from mocking him in the past. And he put himself in a hole. and nine out of 10 listeners who had no idea that Kimmel had mocked him in the past came away believing, and rightfully so, that Rogers just suggested Kimmel was going to be on the Epstein list. And then when Aaron tried to recover from that and explain it days later, he'd already lost. Once you try to explain something, you know what it is, you've lost. It's gone. The moment's gone. So he has inflicted some of these wounds on himself.
00:54:46
Speaker
And that's that's just part of who he is Something you said a moment ago, but especially regarding the island, about how kind of unapologetic Rogers is, uncompromising. And it's very similar to you know Coach K, who's someone who had struggles apologizing, and admitting his wrongs. yeah and a And I just see, OK, in terms of like your body of work, all right, there's one uncompromising, unapologetic guy. And then here's another one. And Belichick's his own beast.
00:55:17
Speaker
And it's like, what is the through line that you're seeing in the people that you're particularly drawn to, to buy ah to biographies?
Traits of O'Connor's Biographical Subjects
00:55:26
Speaker
I think that's a great question, Brendan. I think to be an all-time great, it's very hard and perhaps damaging to admit fault, probably. Or to say, I'm sorry, I screwed up. Because you have to have such an incredible amount of competitive arrogance to be an all-time great, that I think that admitting faults or admitting weakness in any way, particularly publicly, is damaging to that question. And I really think that's why, when's aette a I don't know how how much of a sports fan you are and what sports you prefer to others, but how many times
00:56:13
Speaker
And I'm thinking, as Coach K, Bill Belichick, Derek Jeter, and Aaron Rodgers ever said the words, I'm sorry, at least in a public arena. i you know they just So there is something to be said for that. I think it's once you admit weakness in any aspect of your life or public life that is going to be a hurdle that you're now going to have to clear to get to where you need to be.
00:56:44
Speaker
in the pursuit of all time greatness. That's been my feeling with these guys and why they just won't. Right. And you bring it up greatness to I have one of my questions here I've written down is, you know, it looks inviting. Be it social media, TV, you see all you see all the all the laurels that go with it. But there's a price to greatness. And you've been close to greatness with these figures. And, you know, what is the price or the cost that you see imparted on them?
Fame and Social Media Scrutiny for Athletes
00:57:18
Speaker
Well, just the point when you make a mistake, even if you don't say I'm sorry, or don't admit that mistake, it's out there for millions of millions of people to see. And you're mocked now on social media. And frankly, that's not something that Mickey Mantle or Joe DiMaggio ever had to deal with.
00:57:34
Speaker
yeah And they got ripped in 17 daily newspapers in New York City at that time. But outside of that, it just it was a different animal back then. And so today's athletes, that's the downside. It's the ridicule, the meanness of social media and people reveling in your gown.
00:57:57
Speaker
temporary images, temporary downfall. There is that feeling now that is wonder if they feel that sometimes it's not such a bad thing anonymous relative to relatively anonymous human being. Of course, the relatively anonymous human beings crave fame and fortune. Right.
00:58:22
Speaker
And and and just just assume that those are great problems to have, dealing with criticism and mockery on social media particularly. But yeah, I think sometimes the reverse is true. It's tough out there now. I think it's it's tougher to fail now for for professional athletes coach and it's ever been because of social media. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And I also think that I found that I'll give you an example. The owner of the New York Giants, John Mayer, has been around for a long time. And he's still a pretty good. He's still pretty accessible compared to your average NFL owner. But he used to be extremely accessible. I would walk him into the parking lot all the time from the Giants training camp offices or after games.
00:59:11
Speaker
But even guys like him, because of social media and the constant scrutiny of criticism and mean-spirited criticism, particularly, they've retreated. And they are not almost to a a man or woman. They are not as accessible.
00:59:28
Speaker
And Brian Cashman, Joe manager, the Yankees, I know I'm giving you their figures because really most all my career. Um, he's not, he's not, I used to talk to him whenever and now it's, it's tough to get up. And the reason is because they feel like they get burned so much on social media. They just, uh, they don't want to talk as much as they used to because it's a no one proposition. So yeah, I do think it is. It's just tougher to be a public figure of any sort today. And I think.
00:59:59
Speaker
When you asked the price of fame and fortune and greatness today, the first two words that popped into my head were social. Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think ah and as as storytellers and journalists suffer as a result as well. ah and it's like um It almost makes it all the more imperative to go back to a more old school ethos of journalism, a like true door knocking and seeing people face to face because everything is so almost faceless and to have a face to face interaction, shake someone's hand, being able to see someone nod.
01:00:39
Speaker
Or just have a, like Howard Bryant would say, you would just sit with Terry Francona sometimes and just have a conversation, off the right or the A's manager at one time he was covering. it Just have a conversation off the record, and you're building a relationship that is is forged through mutual respect. Yeah, Brendan, and I talked to some of them passed away, but older journalists who used to travel teams on planes.
01:01:04
Speaker
And you would just bullshit with guys waiting for a delayed flight or checking into a hotel or in the hotel restaurant having breakfast and writers would sometimes eat with players or executives or managers and coaches. And none of that happens. And when sports journalists had that in say the 1950s, 60s and 70s,
01:01:32
Speaker
It gave the athlete and the coach and the front office executive and team owner a chance to see you as human. i yeah you know And they don't see that now. it's just They only see you when you're working, when you're wearing a credential around your neck, when you're looking for something, when you're looking for a story. But that doesn't mean you can't have human interaction. I think you're right. and I don't want to pat myself on the back, but I think that's what I do as much as possible with my books. And frankly, I was never Hemingway, certainly, but one thing I thought I did better than most sports commas around America was report. And while writing an opinion, making it an informed opinion and seeing people face to face and
01:02:19
Speaker
and making that connection. And also being, this is very, this was always, this was my calling card really, is if you rip somebody, you had to be there the next day and and face that person, or at least I would never go up to an athlete or a coach and say, hey, what did you think of what I ripped? But I would make sure I did this with everyone.
01:02:38
Speaker
that the next day that that clubhouse was open, that locker room was open, there was a press conference, whatever, that I sat in the line of vision of that person that I had just ripped in my column. And I did that to a team every single time. And I didn't necessarily say something, but I made sure you knew I was there if you needed to try to berate me or whatever you needed if you had to say something to me. And also, I didn't want to be presumptuous and go up to the figure because I'd be assigning myself greater importance than perhaps I deserve because maybe that person didn't bother reading the column or didn't give a shit. But I made sure you saw me. So if you had something to say, you couldn't say I was hiding. And that that to me was a very important thing.
01:03:24
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's such a ah and that's just going to and has garnered for you. Certainly you just Morris more respect in that regard. So yeah, yeah and I don't know if you know Gus Johnson, the announcer.
01:03:39
Speaker
mostly basketball, but oh yes oh yes yeah i remember I remember doing, I criticized Charles Oakley of New York Knicks, who was pretty intimidated by the presence, 6'9", and just one of the league's great enforcers, and I criticized him in New York. daily new column the next day in the locker locker room access. And Gus Johnson comes up to me and said, hey, that was a good comment. He said, right, why don't you go up to Oakley who was standing 10 feet away from me and ask him if he read it and tell him what he thought and tell him why he wrote it. And I said, no, he sees me. Like if he cared and read it, I am standing right in front of him. He's got a chance to say something, scream at me, call me over, whatever.
01:04:24
Speaker
But I'm not going up to him and assuming that he read it or cares about my opinion. So yeah, I would never initiate a confrontation or just a conversation after a negative column, but just be present and have that accountability. And I think that does inspire respect.
01:04:45
Speaker
Absolutely. yeah And just that your your body of work, I think, invites that. And, you know, and this this new biography is is no different. So it's, ah yeah, it's just, I want to be mindful of your time, Ian. And this is just such a furtive and wonderful conversation about how you go about writing these biographies and yeah getting to dig into Aaron Rodgers a bit. So just, ah you know, thank you so much for the time and talk and shop. This was wonderful.
01:05:07
Speaker
it was my pleasure and it's always great talking
01:05:16
Speaker
All right. Yes. Thank you, Ian, for coming on the show. That was awesome. Ian O'Connor, Brendan O'Mara, a couple Irishmen. Gotta love it. Nice to talk to sports writers. I love talking to sports writers. And enjoy to finally have Ian on the show. He's ah been one of those guys who's like... Gotta have this guy on the show and then lo and behold get an email from the Mariner books publicist Ian O'Connor new book. I'm like, yes Let's do this and I read it fast and I got him on before he went through his media onslaught Which is kind of ongoing. He was on Dan Patrick show the other day and he talked about some of the things ah That we talked about on the show and we recorded a couple weeks ago and I heard him talking on Dan Patrick and I was like, oh Oh wow, those are some things that are on ah on my show, and we'll get it. You just did, didn't you? Don't forget to smash that subscribe button on your favorite podcast app so you never miss a CNFing podcast.
01:06:18
Speaker
You know, and if my prefontaine book from the same imprint as Ian's measures up to half of what Ian's accomplished with his Aaron Rodgers book, I'll take that. That'll mean I've written a pretty damn good book. ah As of this parting shot, still waiting, still floating, I've secured some photo permissions, um reread some notes, got to reread some more. Just want to make sure nothing falls through the cracks.
01:06:44
Speaker
Something's always gonna fall through the cracks, but you'd hate to go to press, and you're like, oh no. And if you have some of those things, you need to be very gentle about folding it in back into the narrative. It's sorta like a soufflé, where you fold things into a soufflé. You don't wanna agitate it too much, otherwise you might deflate the whole thing.
01:07:10
Speaker
I don't know what else to say that hasn't already been said, you know, up to this point regarding the process of this book. My only hope is that my editor reads this latest iteration and is like, yes, we're very close. We're almost there. It's good. And one more pass and a good line at it. And we can make something great out of this, something we can feel proud of, something that could hold up on subsequent reads.
01:07:40
Speaker
I'm not going to go so far as to say stand the test of time, but if you read this in 10 years or in 20 years, I hope it will be like, oh, that's a good book. Kind of like American Prometheus, i when whenever it came out in 2005 or whatever. You know, I've read that recently within the last year and it's just like, that's an amazing biography. That one will stand the test of time. It has already and will continue to do so.
01:08:04
Speaker
And ah I don't think it's asking too much of your own personal ambition to hope that your book feels that way, has that kind of heft. I don't think that's, it might be asking too much, but I think it's okay to shoot for that star. In any case, on an unrelated note.
01:08:22
Speaker
yeah i woke the I woke up the other morning with um some gum swelling around one of my implant sites. I have five implant sites in my mouth. This is my nightmare scenario. I live in terror of infections developing around any of ah the implants. I had pretty significant oral surgery about five years ago. and tens of thousands of dollars. Fortunately, I had a benefactor pay for it, and the worry with implants is is ah is infection developing around those sites. They are very vulnerable to infection. And the other day, there was yeah extra swelling, and I immediately went in into this mild panic, because that's what I do. I get it from my mom. We're kind of like hypochondriacs. You get a little
01:09:07
Speaker
you know She would get like a little this little bump on her wrist. She's like, I i have cancer. it's It's cancer. There's no way it's not cancer. And we're like, Mom, it's not cancer. And thanks. Thank you for that. Because now any time I get so much as a blemish, I'm like, God's got to be cancer. hi um You know what? I complained about this life, and and now I'm going to die in the next year. yeah That's what happens. that's That's the panic. So in any case I flossed a little bit more and I got the water peck out um rinsed with salt water um You know blood is never good. You know did more fluff more salt water and then this morning on flossing the no blood
01:09:51
Speaker
ah There was a little last night and none this morning, but swelling hasn't returned in fall, but it has subsided somewhat. But it's still a little bit there. Or maybe I'm just more paranoid or more sensitive to it. ah If it persists, I'll have to go to the dentist very soon and odds are they'll say, yeah, it looks like the implant site is developing something and it's starting to fail and pretty much there's nothing we can do until that bone weakens around the implant and then we have to remove it and then your bridge will be toast.
01:10:20
Speaker
And that's just it. It's not like they can, so so far as my understanding is, they they can't just like inject, I don't know, antibiotic in that area. It's kind of like you develop an infection around your root systems and they're like, well, you're fucked. That's that's dentistry. You're screwed.
01:10:39
Speaker
All this is to say, make sure you're flossing people. Break up those plaque cities, man. You don't want. Plaque is bacteria haven, and your mouth is like Xanadu for bacteria, and it doesn't take much for that shit to cause an infection that might cost you in more ways than one. yeah You didn't think you'd hear about Brendan's dental woes, did you? But you did.
01:11:08
Speaker
I'm so, so sorry. Stay wild, see ya in efforts, and if you can do, interview. See ya.