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Winter Show and Tell: Three young dealers and the antiques they ❤️
58 Plays6 years ago
Special guests James Boening (James Robinson, Inc.), Ria Murray (Lillian Nassau), and Taylor Thistlethwaite (Thistlethwaite Americana), join hosts Ben and Michael at the Park Avenue Armory during the Winter Show for a lively discussion about a Tiffany favrile glass pig, a silver molinet, a pair of Scottish Highlands pistols, a c. 1770 New York card table, and a fetching portrait miniature from the German school.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Curious Objects'
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to Curious Objects, I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:17
Speaker
And I'm Michael Diaz-Griffith.
00:00:19
Speaker
And some of you are, I'm sure, Curious Objects listeners, some of you are New Ed's Aquarians, some of you are general enthusiasts, but we're thrilled to see you all here and we're thrilled to share some fabulous stories today about some objects that we have laid out in front of you.
00:00:35
Speaker
I want to second what Helen said in thanking the magazine Antiques who produces this podcast.
00:00:41
Speaker
And thanks to the Winter Show for hosting us in this fabulous Gilded Age room in the Park Avenue Armory, protecting Park Avenue mansions against the proletariat since the Gilded Age.
00:00:55
Speaker
And we're getting dangerously political already.
00:00:59
Speaker
Sorry, we're off to a good start here.
00:01:04
Speaker
But I want to bring on our special guests here.
00:01:09
Speaker
Wait, but we don't have any guests.
00:01:12
Speaker
Because there aren't any young dealers in the antiques trade.
00:01:15
Speaker
I've been hearing it every day.
00:01:16
Speaker
Young people hate antiques.
00:01:19
Speaker
We tried to, when I wanted to put together this event, and we thought it would be fun to, because these are new antiquarians, to get some young dealers on the stage.
00:01:30
Speaker
But we were told again and again that young people don't care about antiques.
Are young people interested in antiques?
00:01:36
Speaker
They're not interested.
00:01:37
Speaker
In fact, I was at an Americana party the other day,
00:01:41
Speaker
And I was introduced to someone whom I greatly admire, whom I'd never met before.
00:01:46
Speaker
You know, I know their work.
00:01:48
Speaker
And as soon as I was introduced, she looked at me with a withering glance.
00:01:53
Speaker
And I'm used to that when I'm being introduced.
00:01:55
Speaker
But this was particularly withering.
00:01:58
Speaker
And she said, you must be one of those contemporary people.
00:02:03
Speaker
because I'm young, which in the antiques trade means I'm below 60, roughly.
00:02:09
Speaker
And I said, no, I've devoted my life to antiques.
00:02:12
Speaker
And actually, we did find three amazing young dealers who've devoted their lives to antiques to talk to us tonight.
Meet the Young Dealers: James, Ria, and Taylor
00:02:20
Speaker
So we're going to start off with a young man who is the scion of a great old family firm here in New York, James Robinson, dealing in antique silver, close to my heart, and antique jewelry.
00:02:36
Speaker
Please welcome James Boning.
00:02:46
Speaker
Second, we have our dear friend, Ria Murray of Lillian Nassau.
00:02:52
Speaker
She's an exhibitor at the show, and we're so glad she can join us tonight.
00:03:01
Speaker
And last but not least, hailing from Kentucky, exhibiting at the winter show for the first time, Taylor Thistlefwaite.
00:03:14
Speaker
All right, so we're going to take our seats, but while we're going to begin with some storytelling and we're going to talk to you, we'll get to a more interactive conversation soon.
00:03:26
Speaker
So just know that you're going to have to listen to these people for a few minutes, but then we'll have a chat.
00:03:32
Speaker
They're only professional storytellers.
00:03:35
Speaker
What could go wrong?
Sponsor Highlight: Freeman's Auction House
00:03:38
Speaker
And I want to say a quick thank you to our sponsor for this episode, Freeman's Auction House.
00:03:44
Speaker
Since 1805, Freeman's has been a part of the Fabric of Philadelphia, helping generations of clients in the buying and selling of fine and decorative arts jewelry, modern design, and more.
00:03:53
Speaker
Freeman's is now welcoming consignments for their Spring 2020 American Furniture, Folk, and Decorative Arts Auction.
00:03:59
Speaker
Visit freemansauction.com to request a complimentary auction valuation and speak with their specialists.
00:04:06
Speaker
Now, we have five people on stage and we have five objects.
00:04:11
Speaker
And I think that a very good place to start is with the most menacing objects in the room.
00:04:20
Speaker
And I think I probably don't need to tell you who brought the most menacing objects.
00:04:28
Speaker
That's you, James.
00:04:30
Speaker
Hello, thank you.
00:04:32
Speaker
So I, as well as dealing in antique silver and jewelry, I personally enjoy antique arms and armor.
00:04:41
Speaker
And I have been collecting since I was about six.
00:04:46
Speaker
And the first item that was purchased for me, obviously at six, I had no money.
00:04:50
Speaker
It was given to me by my grandfather, purchased here at the 1993 Winter Antique Show from Peter Feiner, one of the
00:04:58
Speaker
steadfast exhibitors here.
James Boning and the Scottish Pistols
00:05:00
Speaker
So I have brought a pair of Scottish Highland pistols which are very unusual.
00:05:06
Speaker
They are unique to Scotland.
00:05:10
Speaker
They are normally completely made of metal, whether they're brass or steel, often highly engraved and usually just that is enough to make them of interest.
00:05:21
Speaker
Most weapons, pistols, flintlock, percussion would have wood.
00:05:26
Speaker
Pardon me, I'm going to read from my phone because I have a story about these.
00:05:31
Speaker
These pistols were owned by an English or Scottish man who was part of a platoon called the Black Watch.
00:05:41
Speaker
and his name was Major Archibald Menzis and he fought in the Battle of Cordergross, July, sorry, June 16th, 1815.
00:05:53
Speaker
Now this battle was one of the battles that led up to Waterloo.
00:05:58
Speaker
The pistols themselves were made in the southeastern part of the Highlands in Scotland by a man named Thomas Murdock.
00:06:06
Speaker
His family was very famous for making this style of pistol and basically a lot of these weapons were carried by Scottish military officers, sorry Scottish officers in the British military and it was something that kind of distinguished them from English and Irish and Welsh officers and it was something that was very unique to them.
00:06:33
Speaker
So the story that I'm going to tell is about actually the fight that Major Mentes found himself in.
00:06:42
Speaker
And this is actually from a book, I have the reference at the end, but I'm not going to take the time to find it.
00:06:49
Speaker
This is a first-hand account of him fighting in this battle.
00:06:55
Speaker
So it starts saying,
00:07:25
Speaker
It belongs to our captain here.
00:07:29
Speaker
Just imagine that with his Scottish accent.
00:07:31
Speaker
I had Mr. Patrick read it earlier from ALPR, and that was a lot of fun.
00:07:38
Speaker
He goes on to say, with a last expiring effort loaded his musket and shot the lancer dead.
00:07:44
Speaker
A French officer, seizing Menzis, seeing him stirring, rode up to attempt to dispatch him with a sword.
00:07:50
Speaker
As the Frenchman stopped from his saddle, Menzis seized his leg and managed to pull him off his horse and onto himself.
00:07:57
Speaker
Another lancer, observing the struggle, galloped up to attempt to spear Menzis and relieved his officer.
00:08:02
Speaker
But Menzis, by a sudden jerk and desperate exertion, placed the French officer uppermost, whereupon the Frenchman received the mortal thrust below his cuirass and remained as a shield for Menzis for the next 10 minutes.
00:08:20
Speaker
Applause in the fighting enabled Menzis to be carried off to a relative safety of the square formed by the 92nd foot, whereupon it was discovered that he had endured no less than 16 stab wounds from lances and swords, most of which inflicted while he lay there on the ground wounded.
00:08:39
Speaker
So these pistols were carried with him at this battle and he was not actually present at the Battle of Waterloo, you might imagine, due to his injuries, but he was awarded honors for bravery.
00:08:53
Speaker
And these were carried, or were in his family until I think remembering the 60s when they were sold at auction.
00:09:02
Speaker
His family had moved to New Zealand, if I'm remembering off the top of my head, and then they've kind of circulated around.
00:09:11
Speaker
I found these at, again, Peter Feiner here at the Winter Antique Show.
00:09:16
Speaker
They kind of speak to me for many reasons, but particularly the engraving on them, the silver that is, of course, inlaid on them, but I found the story fascinating, so much so that I forgot about it until yesterday.
00:09:31
Speaker
But when I purchased them, I was very enthralled by the story, and many of the pieces I have, I don't have much of a story but a date in the maker.
00:09:39
Speaker
And I found these very interesting due to the extensive amount of information that are contained within these two objects, again, menacing objects.
00:09:52
Speaker
That's what drew me to them.
00:09:54
Speaker
Thanks for that very gory story, James.
00:09:57
Speaker
I like to keep things lively.
00:10:00
Speaker
Should we move on to something a little more palatable?
00:10:04
Speaker
How about a pig?
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah, a little less menacing, perhaps.
00:10:08
Speaker
Thank you, Rhea.
00:10:09
Speaker
Point
Ria Murray and the Tiffany Glass Pig
00:10:12
Speaker
to it.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yes, because it's a little diminutive.
00:10:14
Speaker
You may not notice him there, but on the table here, you'll see there's a little gold iridescent glass pig.
00:10:22
Speaker
So I work for Lillian Nassau LLC, which is one of the world's top dealers in the work of Louis Comfort Tiffany and Tiffany Studios.
00:10:31
Speaker
which most people associate with the windows, leaded glass windows and lamps, which are extremely famous.
00:10:37
Speaker
I mean, he's one of the most well-known American decorative artists.
00:10:41
Speaker
But he also had a big complex out in Corona Queens where they did a lot of blown glass.
00:10:47
Speaker
So if you visit our booth here at the show, which is A2, you will see the firm signature leaded glass lamps, but you will also see a cabinet on the left side that is full of a variety of objects that they produced out in Corona Queens.
00:11:01
Speaker
So there's a lot of art glass vases, there's a lot of really ornate decorative finishes on them.
00:11:06
Speaker
There's picture frames, little bowls, and desk set pieces.
00:11:10
Speaker
At the time, we would have had a really elaborate desk covered with blotters and things like that.
00:11:16
Speaker
So they made art glass, which was really quite expensive for them to produce.
00:11:20
Speaker
They spent a lot of money out in this Corona Queens factory.
00:11:25
Speaker
Tiffany brought in artisans from Europe in the 1890s.
00:11:30
Speaker
people who were experts in the field in Europe and they did a lot of experimentation to produce this really elaborate art glass that would sell for hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
00:11:39
Speaker
But the other thing that they produced was a lot of more commercial tableware and that's the gold iridescent glass that a lot of people are more familiar with today.
00:11:49
Speaker
It's really, really beautiful lustrous finish.
00:11:52
Speaker
Actually, the man who apparently invented this, a lot of people just assume that Tiffany, and he encouraged this assumption very much,
00:12:01
Speaker
They assumed that he was actually in Corona blowing the glass, that he was in the furnaces, that he was designing the lamps, and that was the impression that was given for a long time deliberately in their advertising.
00:12:13
Speaker
But in the last 30 years or so, thanks to a lot of scholarship from really incredible curators and private researchers, we found out that these objects were created by average people.
00:12:26
Speaker
The lamps, which he's the most famous for, were designed by a group of women.
00:12:31
Speaker
And then the glass pieces were produced by, I think it was about 150 men at the peak of employment in Corona, Queens.
00:12:38
Speaker
And so this little object here on the table, it's very unusual.
00:12:42
Speaker
It's not what you would expect to see in a piece of Tiffany Gold iridescent glass.
00:12:47
Speaker
And that's because it's not really an officially sanctioned piece of Tiffany glass.
00:12:53
Speaker
Arlie Sulca, the owner of the gallery, was contacted by the descendants of somebody who actually worked at Tiffany Studios.
00:13:00
Speaker
The family was still in the New York City area.
00:13:04
Speaker
And they had a whole bunch of pieces that this descendant had taken home with him when the company closed in the early 1930s.
00:13:14
Speaker
And this little piggy was one of the many pieces that they brought to us.
00:13:18
Speaker
And they were strange things that would not have been sold.
00:13:21
Speaker
They were actually bottles that were marked and engraved, sample A.H.
00:13:25
Speaker
Nash.
00:13:25
Speaker
He was the man that invented the Gold Eredezen glass finish.
00:13:30
Speaker
And so it's an unusual piece.
00:13:32
Speaker
It's something that if I think Louis Tiffany knew that I was here today talking about in the armory, he might be a little upset.
00:13:42
Speaker
because he definitely wanted to be seen as the auteur behind everything.
00:13:48
Speaker
Fortunately, he's buried all the way over in Brooklyn.
00:13:51
Speaker
Yes, he's all the way out in Greenwood Cemetery.
00:13:53
Speaker
He has no idea that we're here today.
00:13:56
Speaker
So this is a really, it's an unusual piece, and it's an exciting insight into the people behind the scenes who are really making all these spectacular objects that we're all lusting over today.
00:14:09
Speaker
And you've called this piece a whimsy.
00:14:11
Speaker
Yes, it's a whimsy.
00:14:12
Speaker
There are other whimsy's, right?
00:14:14
Speaker
What form do they take?
00:14:15
Speaker
So whimsy is sort of a glassblowing term.
00:14:18
Speaker
It's something that we use to refer to things that were made kind of
00:14:22
Speaker
in your own free time after hours.
00:14:24
Speaker
Off the cuff.
00:14:25
Speaker
Right.
00:14:26
Speaker
And actually, while I was doing a little research to get ready for this, I ended up looking at the Corning Museum of Glass, I think about 30 years or so.
00:14:36
Speaker
They were able to acquire from auction the actual notebooks
00:14:41
Speaker
of the man, Arthur Nash, who invented all of this glass.
00:14:44
Speaker
He was like incredibly secretive.
00:14:46
Speaker
The notebooks literally have a lock on them and he carried them around with him every day.
00:14:51
Speaker
He wouldn't let anybody into his laboratory, like nothing like that.
00:14:54
Speaker
So he would literally mix all of the elements to create a batch of glass in his locked laboratory and then bring them out to the glassblowers because they actually had recorded incidents of people trying to steal
00:15:08
Speaker
their formulas because the gold iridescent class when Tiffany invented this was like a huge popular thing.
00:15:13
Speaker
People were going crazy over it and a lot of the other companies were trying to steal that formula.
00:15:20
Speaker
So while I was doing this research I sort of dredged up some scans that I had for this talk of the actual Nash notebooks and you have to sort of take them with a grain of salt because they're written by both Arthur and his son who was later employed by Tiffany.
00:15:36
Speaker
They were a little bit bitter about their relationship with Tiffany.
00:15:40
Speaker
There are some choice comments about Louie, you know, peppered throughout the pages.
00:15:46
Speaker
But there are also a lot of really fascinating stories about just day-to-day working at Tiffany Studios.
00:15:51
Speaker
And so Nash makes reference to something that he calls the glass parade.
00:15:56
Speaker
Leslie, the son, makes reference to this.
00:15:58
Speaker
And so apparently there was one day where, for whatever reason, one of the old gaffers told him some story about all the glass lovers spent an hour a day making a curious
00:16:11
Speaker
well, a curious object, really, to sort of show off their skills, yeah.
00:16:16
Speaker
And so Nash then decided, well, let's do that again, like something to keep up the morale.
00:16:21
Speaker
So he gave them each an hour a day for a few weeks to work on their own object, and he sketched the ones that he remembered, and he called it the glass parade, and there were all these, there was a whole set of instruments, they had a whole glass band, they had a flag, you know, rippling in the wind,
00:16:38
Speaker
There are all these sort of funky little things that were just objects that they made to kind of play around and show off how much technique they had.
00:16:47
Speaker
So this is an example of that, a whimsy, something that they were just kind of playing around with.
00:16:54
Speaker
Brilliant.
00:16:55
Speaker
Okay.
00:16:56
Speaker
Well, Taylor, what you're going to talk to us about is not exactly a whimsy, but there may be some whimsical carving on it.
00:17:04
Speaker
Tell us about it.
00:17:05
Speaker
There certainly is some whimsical carving on it.
Taylor Thistlefwaite's New York Card Table
00:17:08
Speaker
And the funny thing about it is we talk about Scottish pistols and epic battles, and we talk about the great New York institution of Tiffany.
00:17:20
Speaker
And my piece might have a little bit of both mixed in.
00:17:23
Speaker
So I brought today a great New York card table.
00:17:29
Speaker
And let me start off with saying I am a first-time exhibitor here, and I found out I got in the show about six months ago.
00:17:36
Speaker
So when you find out you're in the winter show, you go, this is great, this is so excited.
00:17:43
Speaker
Oh, my God, what am I going to bring?
00:17:44
Speaker
And I was doing some research, and I was doing some research, and I was doing some research,
00:17:49
Speaker
found out about a great New York card table.
00:17:53
Speaker
And it's one of these things when you walk into a room as an antique guy and you sit and you go, oh my God, this is great.
00:18:03
Speaker
And I was especially excited by this one because
00:18:07
Speaker
Out of all the New York furniture that was ever made, I think the card table is the most attractive form.
00:18:15
Speaker
It has curves everywhere, big grooning, very bold ball and claw feet.
00:18:22
Speaker
And this one is very special because it's in the original surface with great, you know, just... It's what us antique dealers, or us brown wood people, just melt for.
00:18:35
Speaker
Um, and I, uh, when you get the, and I was lucky enough to get the piece, but then we started looking into it and the table is signed on the underside of the top, as well as the top of the frame lot.
00:18:53
Speaker
And the lot family in the 18th century was
00:18:56
Speaker
one of the largest landowners in Brooklyn.
00:19:00
Speaker
And, of course, the dealer here, Frank Levy, has done more research on these tables than any human on Earth, so I have to give him so much credit for helping me dig into this table.
00:19:11
Speaker
Friend of the podcast.
00:19:13
Speaker
He's already a superstar, of course.
00:19:16
Speaker
And when we got to looking into Lott's,
00:19:22
Speaker
These tables have always been attributed to a partnership that was started in 1765 and lasted to 1775.
00:19:30
Speaker
And it was by Willett and Piercy.
00:19:34
Speaker
And Willett marries Piercy's daughter, so we've got some good connections there.
00:19:39
Speaker
And this is where we get into the war part.
00:19:43
Speaker
So when Willett, you know, we have this 10-year period where these tables are being produced.
00:19:50
Speaker
Again, they're over the top.
00:19:51
Speaker
We have attributed them to some of the best families in New York.
00:19:56
Speaker
And Lott and Willett actually have some interconnections.
00:20:00
Speaker
So it makes perfect sense that this table belonged to the Lott family.
00:20:06
Speaker
Well, Willett, interesting enough, the war comes along and he's like, well, time to stop being a cabinetmaker and goes on to be a huge Revolutionary War figure and is involved in several battles and
00:20:18
Speaker
eventually comes back and becomes the mayor of New York and also the vice governor of New York.
00:20:26
Speaker
So I think you go from cabinet making to politics.
00:20:31
Speaker
It might be a simple jump here.
00:20:34
Speaker
Is that in your future?
00:20:36
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:20:37
Speaker
Probably 2040, somewhere in there.
00:20:39
Speaker
Paul Revere, I mean, you silver guys.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah, plenty of precedent for that.
00:20:44
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:20:45
Speaker
So this is just a...
00:20:47
Speaker
This is a great example of not only great New York craftsmanship, but just a great thing that just came together for me at the right time.
00:20:58
Speaker
And as all antique dealers know, that's like the most exciting thing ever is when something, a great story, a great piece just kind of falls into your lap.
00:21:08
Speaker
And then you're like, you trace out all these little threads and go, oh my God, this thing's so cool.
00:21:15
Speaker
And we don't have a picture of it, actually, because you had another object in mind that then a big collector came by and decided he was interested in.
00:21:22
Speaker
Yeah, so I had a great weathervang that was going to make an appearance.
00:21:27
Speaker
He was a pretty dog to go away with a pig.
00:21:29
Speaker
And then a friend who's helping me at the booth called and was like, we have somebody here who's here to look at the dog.
00:21:37
Speaker
The dog and I went spielined back to the booth.
00:21:40
Speaker
The dog was here, guys, just a few minutes ago.
00:21:43
Speaker
I really think this has to be understood to know what the winter show is all about.
00:21:49
Speaker
The material may be of museum quality, but it's a buying fair, and I love that about it.
00:21:55
Speaker
This guy might be on his way out of the door right now.
00:21:58
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:21:59
Speaker
Let's hope he finds a good home, because he's a good boy.
00:22:04
Speaker
Michael, speaking of buying, you brought an object that you bought yourself just very recently.
00:22:09
Speaker
It's true.
00:22:11
Speaker
I just got this fellow on my lapel and I don't know a whole lot about him yet because he's recently adopted.
Michael Diaz-Griffith's Portrait Miniature Brooch
00:22:20
Speaker
He may appear on that screen.
00:22:22
Speaker
But I want to lodge a disclaimer with you.
00:22:26
Speaker
He's not from the Winter Show.
00:22:28
Speaker
Apologies to Helen and to my fellow Winter Show committee members.
00:22:33
Speaker
I'm 33 and he's from eBay but I spoke to Ali Shushan, the foremost authority on portrait miniatures in America, who is a loyal Winter Show exhibitor and she has said that I did good.
00:22:51
Speaker
and considering how much I paid for him, I pretty much had to do good because I didn't pay a lot.
00:22:57
Speaker
So that's the money side of things, and I think it's important to remember that historic objects, examples of material culture from the past can be bought at every price point imaginable.
00:23:11
Speaker
And so, you know, this is an example of that.
00:23:16
Speaker
I was attracted to this gentleman who feels to me like a bit of a dandy and also to the kind of neoclassical simplicity of his, you know, the background and the frame.
00:23:32
Speaker
And what's not evident from the image that you see on the screen is that this is a portrait miniature configured as a mourning brooch.
00:23:43
Speaker
So there's also a set of initials here rendered in human hair, which some might find a little bit creepy.
00:23:52
Speaker
I think of it as a locus for stories, and that's what we care about here.
00:23:56
Speaker
There's no glass on the back yet.
00:23:58
Speaker
I still have to have it restored, so I'm going to very carefully turn it around.
00:24:04
Speaker
And, you know, I love the way it looks.
00:24:07
Speaker
I love the fact that this person mattered to someone.
00:24:10
Speaker
I don't know who he is yet.
00:24:12
Speaker
I don't know who wore the morning brooch, but I know that there was an intense, passionate attachment at the root of this object.
00:24:21
Speaker
And it's yet to be discovered, but based on what I've heard up here today, there's hope that I'll be able to uncover that story.
00:24:28
Speaker
and maybe be inspired by it instead of seeing it as creepy that I'm wearing human hair on my lapel.
00:24:37
Speaker
And that's pretty much it for this guy.
00:24:40
Speaker
I neglected to say that we think he is...
00:24:44
Speaker
broadly of the German school and from 1785-1790, which is about what I figured based on his costume.
00:24:53
Speaker
But further evidence may prove me wrong, and I'll give you an update if I find out that I am wrong.
00:24:59
Speaker
You'll hear about an uncurious object.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:03
Speaker
I am going to have to get up to talk about this object, which I'm afraid I've deceived you all.
00:25:12
Speaker
Podcast listeners won't be aware of this, but what I have in front of me is an oversized chocolate pot.
00:25:20
Speaker
However, that is not the object that I wanted to talk to you about today.
00:25:24
Speaker
The object is actually inside the chocolate pot.
00:25:27
Speaker
Give me a second here.
00:25:35
Speaker
Here we go.
00:25:37
Speaker
So this is a piece which I should start by telling you was mis-catalogued in an auction sale by a professional in the antiques auction business as a mace.
00:25:57
Speaker
You can perhaps imagine why.
Ben Miller's Rare Silver Molinet
00:26:01
Speaker
And the reason that someone who actually was quite experienced and knowledgeable miscatalogued it is that this is a vanishingly rare object.
00:26:09
Speaker
It's a piece that was made in sterling silver in the early 18th century in England.
00:26:17
Speaker
And the thing about silver is it is money, right?
00:26:21
Speaker
And it can be turned from useful objects into coins, and it can be sold as a raw material.
00:26:28
Speaker
So it's a liquid asset.
00:26:29
Speaker
And when a piece of silver becomes obsolete, out of fashion, unusable, when you lose your interest in it,
00:26:36
Speaker
you always have the option of sending it to the melting pot and melting it down.
00:26:40
Speaker
Well, this object is what's called a mullinette, and its original function was to stir a pot of chocolate.
00:26:52
Speaker
And it's a function that was very important in the 18th century when chocolate was a vogue beverage in England and it started coming up from Spain, where it had come from, Mesoamerica.
00:27:06
Speaker
And the problem was that it was a very fatty beverage.
00:27:09
Speaker
So if you were to pour it straight out of the pot, you would end up with this nasty, oily film on the top that wasn't very pleasant to drink.
00:27:17
Speaker
So right before serving it, the chocolate needed to be whipped up.
00:27:21
Speaker
So this is, we call it a mullinette, but you could also call it a swizzle stick.
00:27:27
Speaker
Most of these were made in wood, some of them were made in brass and other materials because they were hidden inside the pot.
00:27:33
Speaker
Most people wouldn't see them, so most people didn't bother spending a lot of money to make them out of fancy materials like silver.
00:27:39
Speaker
But in a few rare cases, some very fancy people decided that nothing but silver would do.
00:27:45
Speaker
So there were a certain number of silver molinets made.
00:27:50
Speaker
Now, in the 19th century, when chocolate production changed and they came up with better emulsifiers and didn't need to whip the chocolate right before serving anymore, the mullinets became obsolete objects.
00:28:04
Speaker
So the vast majority of the ones that had been made in silver, which was already a small number, were melted down and turned into coins or turned into...
00:28:13
Speaker
coffee pots or other things.
00:28:15
Speaker
And so they were largely forgotten.
00:28:17
Speaker
And today, it's once in a very long while that one of these turns up on the market.
00:28:22
Speaker
There are a tiny handful in museums in various places.
00:28:25
Speaker
There are a tiny handful in private collections.
00:28:30
Speaker
And there's this one, which happens to be in the inventory of S.J.
00:28:33
Speaker
Shrubsell, my employer.
00:28:36
Speaker
So I was very happy to be able to bring it today and show that even a useless object that hasn't had a proper function in 200-plus years now, nevertheless has been treasured enough through the generations not to be turned into liquid cash or a retirement fund, and therefore to have survived to be seen by all of us here today.
00:29:01
Speaker
Brilliant.
00:29:02
Speaker
It almost looks like a scepter.
00:29:04
Speaker
You can just stand there and pose.
00:29:05
Speaker
It's us.
00:29:05
Speaker
It's us.
00:29:06
Speaker
And a torture device.
00:29:07
Speaker
Speaking of gory stories.
00:29:10
Speaker
We probably don't need to follow that line too far.
00:29:12
Speaker
Let's just leave that where it is.
00:29:14
Speaker
I just want to look at, to consider one thing quickly before we move into a broader conversation.
Pathways into the Antiques Trade
00:29:20
Speaker
We were joking about how
00:29:23
Speaker
People say there aren't many young people who like antiques and this audience and these panelists are proof against that.
00:29:30
Speaker
But as I was sitting here, I was realizing that James emerges from a family firm.
00:29:37
Speaker
And that's a very traditional way to get into the antiques trade.
00:29:41
Speaker
So he represents one route into the trade.
00:29:44
Speaker
Ria, you've been mentored by Arlie Sulca, who was mentored by Lillian Nassau.
00:29:51
Speaker
So you're a part of almost a matriarchal lineage.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yes, we definitely have.
00:29:55
Speaker
Of experts.
00:29:56
Speaker
And Tiffany, I mean, Lillian Nassau practically invented the field.
00:30:00
Speaker
She is widely considered the doyen, or was widely considered to be the doyen of Tiffany, yeah.
00:30:07
Speaker
Yeah, and so there's a kind of, it's not a family firm, but there's a tradition there of mentorship that takes Lillian Nassau's knowledge and expertise, delivers it to Arlie Sulca, who delivers it to Rhea in this really glorious and direct line.
00:30:26
Speaker
And here we have Taylor.
00:30:27
Speaker
the youngest or second youngest maybe exhibitor to enter the Winter Show ever and I'm very proud to be, I think so.
00:30:35
Speaker
I'm not talking about a deputy or an assistant in a gallery but an exhibiting participant.
00:30:44
Speaker
close to the youngest and certainly in the last few decades and you're starting your business yourself.
00:30:51
Speaker
I mean you did start your business yourself, it wasn't inherited and that represents another route into the trade.
00:30:57
Speaker
So we have three young people but they're distinguished by these very distinct means of entry into the antiques trade and I think Ben has another way of entering the trade that you've heard about.
00:31:10
Speaker
At a bar, which is a whole other story.
00:31:11
Speaker
Well, yeah, through sheer coincidence.
00:31:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:14
Speaker
And fortune or misfortune, depending on how you see it.
00:31:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:18
Speaker
I just wanted to point that out.
00:31:19
Speaker
There's a sort of diversity here that's really interesting to me.
00:31:23
Speaker
And this is only among dealers, of course.
00:31:25
Speaker
There's a whole other world of scholars and curators.
00:31:29
Speaker
Precisely.
00:31:30
Speaker
Working outside of the trade.
00:31:32
Speaker
Exactly.
00:31:34
Speaker
I want to share another quick word from our generous sponsor, Freeman's Auction House, who are excited to announce Worden Eshrich, made for
Freeman's Upcoming Wharton Esherick Auction
00:31:43
Speaker
the stage.
00:31:43
Speaker
This is a historic collection of woodwork by one of America's most important woodworkers from the Hedro Theater Collection in Rose Valley, Pennsylvania, coming to auction on March 31st.
00:31:54
Speaker
Mark your calendars.
00:31:55
Speaker
The sale includes the legendary Thunder Table from 1929,
00:32:00
Speaker
and the earliest chairs made from repurposed axe and hammer handles by the artist.
00:32:06
Speaker
Established in 1923 in the Rose Valley Arts and Crafts community, Hedro Theatre is America's longest-serving repertory theatre.
00:32:14
Speaker
The works from the collection represent the indelible influence of the performing arts on Escherich, widely regarded as one of the most significant studio woodworkers of the 20th century.
00:32:25
Speaker
Thank you to Freemans.
00:32:27
Speaker
We love you.
00:32:30
Speaker
Now, I want to continue the conversation.
00:32:31
Speaker
We've heard these stories, but let's dig a little deeper into these objects, into our experiences
Collecting Antique Firearms: Regulations and Personal Approach
00:32:37
Speaker
about them.
00:32:37
Speaker
And the first thing that I want to ask you, James, you brought a pair of pistols into this room.
00:32:47
Speaker
probably not the first, frankly.
00:32:52
Speaker
Firearms are regulated in this state.
00:32:57
Speaker
How does that work?
00:32:58
Speaker
So you need a license for firearms that date post
00:33:05
Speaker
1890?
00:33:07
Speaker
Thank you.
00:33:08
Speaker
So basically when bullets and cartridges and firing pins became the method of fire, there's actually no law against walking down the street with a pair of flintlocks
00:33:23
Speaker
maybe loaded, I don't know.
00:33:25
Speaker
But yes, anything that is a firearm made before 1890 can be bought with no license, doesn't matter if they operate or not.
00:33:36
Speaker
If you, for items made after it, they need to be decommissioned, right?
00:33:39
Speaker
They'd have to be like bolted or... Or it would have to be, you know, go through an FFA dealer.
00:33:47
Speaker
So I actually own, this is the thing that's interesting is that I
00:33:52
Speaker
I've had this discussion many times with friends or other dealers.
00:33:55
Speaker
Most of the objects, most of the, I'll just say, arms and armor that I collect actually are more decorative.
00:34:01
Speaker
I do have about 25 objects.
00:34:03
Speaker
Most of them, as I said, these pistols being very unusual, being made of metal.
00:34:08
Speaker
Most of them have wood grips, wood hand stocks.
00:34:12
Speaker
Silver inlay, gold inlay, usually highly engraved.
00:34:16
Speaker
One of my favorite is a single plinlock pistol from
00:34:21
Speaker
Naples, Italy, it's a very beautiful brindled wood with gold and silver inlay, a lion's head on the butt.
00:34:30
Speaker
Everything about it was made for someone to show off.
00:34:34
Speaker
And that's actually one thing when you talk to Peter Feiners, Red and Peter and Rowley, when you get to a certain point of time, they're useful, medieval and whatnot.
00:34:45
Speaker
But most of their later objects were made to be show pieces.
00:34:50
Speaker
I'm not really interested generally in having actually just a plain rifle with nothing on it or a sword that was literally just made for killing, if I'm being completely honest.
00:35:01
Speaker
the sword that I have, the two swords I have, were both court swords, they were worn for dress, they were often worn with frilly wigs, and like Michael's miniature, that gentleman would have likely at court had a sword on his waist.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, in that sense, it's not so different from the jewelry that you grew up around in the family business, right?
00:35:21
Speaker
Absolutely, so as Michael had mentioned, I'm fifth generation in my family, we opened in 1912,
00:35:28
Speaker
and recently in the last 30, 40 years we've become a big part in jewelry.
00:35:33
Speaker
Before actually we were more like a shrub, a straight shrub silver, we were primarily silver dealers, but yeah, these things were ornamental and even though men might have worn more jewelry at the time when you would go to court, when you would go out, you would wear decoration in the form of, often you'll probably see in movies or in paintings,
00:35:57
Speaker
Thank you.
00:36:02
Speaker
or an elaborate belt that holds the scabbard.
00:36:04
Speaker
The scabbard often having chagrin, leather, exotic leather, not just regular leather, often with silver or jewels.
00:36:14
Speaker
Actually, in France, only the royal family was allowed to have jewels, and often other people would use things like margacite and enamel, which was allowed, and they would have these highly elaborate gold and enamel swords because they were literally like wearing a necklace for a woman or a brooch or whatever they wore at the time.
00:36:31
Speaker
Yeah, and the techniques used to produce that decoration were similar or the same.
00:36:38
Speaker
Actually, one of the most beautiful objects in the arms and armor wing, which I think most people don't really go to because they think of weapons, there's an outstandingly gorgeous hilt, which is the handle and guard of a sword, and it was made by Alexis Feliz and another man.
00:36:58
Speaker
and I forget his name.
00:36:59
Speaker
Great French Jewelry.
00:37:00
Speaker
Great French Jewelry, sorry.
00:37:01
Speaker
And the handle, the grip, is a woman reaching up, and the top of the butt, the pommel, is her face,
00:37:13
Speaker
guard is all what I remember off the top of my head, almost like angels, and it's a very spiritual, religious piece.
00:37:22
Speaker
There's no blade on it, but the key is the person that would have carried this.
00:37:27
Speaker
This would have been a highly expensive, highly decorative piece of jewelry, but it just would have been worn on a man's belt as if
00:37:36
Speaker
Yeah, so it speaks to gender in a complexifying way.
00:37:39
Speaker
We're not just looking at objects that valorize warfare or a certain kind of masculinity.
00:37:46
Speaker
They can actually cause us to think about it critically, which I think is not necessarily what people expect when they look at two pistols.
00:37:53
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's the key, is that these, yes, these ones were made to be used.
00:37:59
Speaker
They probably were, but at the same time, they were also a very large sense of national pride for
00:38:08
Speaker
Whether you're English or Scottish, they feel a great sense of national pride, of being completely different and independent in their history and their heritage.
00:38:19
Speaker
And this was something that set them apart from their contemporaries within the service.
00:38:27
Speaker
Ria, there's only so much that we can know about a piece that's not documented, where we don't have a ledger entry, where we don't have proven odds.
00:38:36
Speaker
But I want to ask you to speculate a little, because you do know a little bit about the workshops and the circumstances.
00:38:44
Speaker
So what do you think was going through the mind of the person involved in producing this?
Creative Process Behind Tiffany's Whimsies
00:38:49
Speaker
Well, I've started to wonder because when this first came into the store, this is actually the second time that we've owned this pig.
00:38:55
Speaker
It first came to us in the collection of, I know it's weird to say, owned this pig.
00:39:00
Speaker
I love it.
00:39:02
Speaker
But the first time it came to us was in the collection of this family, and we actually sold it.
00:39:08
Speaker
And then the person who we sold it to unfortunately passed away, and so it has now come back to us.
00:39:14
Speaker
And the first time we had it, I heard tell from Lindsay Parrott, who you guys may know, she's the executive director and the curator of the Newstat collection of Tiffany Glass, which is a really incredible resource.
00:39:26
Speaker
It's out in Long Island City in Queens.
00:39:30
Speaker
And so it's a study collection.
00:39:32
Speaker
There was this orthodontist from Queens who was very passionate about Tiffany.
00:39:36
Speaker
And there's going to be a future New Antiquarians tour of their facilities.
00:39:40
Speaker
I was hoping that there would be, because we had a great time there celebrating Louis' birthday a few years ago.
00:39:46
Speaker
And if you have never been, they do offer tours.
00:39:49
Speaker
I guess we'll have an event for New Antiquarians, which will be really fun.
00:39:52
Speaker
But anyway, I digress.
00:39:54
Speaker
Lindsay is an incredible scholar and a really wonderful person, and she had mentioned to me a few years ago that there was another pig out there.
00:40:00
Speaker
And so I was like, okay.
00:40:02
Speaker
And she came by the booth the other day and I asked her about it and she had actually borrowed from the descendants of a different family of a Tiffany worker a collection of these Whimsies and there was another pig.
00:40:16
Speaker
This pig that we have, I think he's like three inches, maybe by two inches, he's quite small.
00:40:21
Speaker
The other pig is about the size, I mean he's about 12 inches, maybe four inches high, he's quite big, and he's blown in a completely different method.
00:40:30
Speaker
This one is blown from the snout, and then they sort of pulled it up through the tail.
00:40:35
Speaker
The other one was blown from the tail and they pinched his nose out.
00:40:39
Speaker
So it's just sort of like, why are there two pigs?
00:40:42
Speaker
Why are they so different?
00:40:43
Speaker
Why are the methods of construction so different?
00:40:46
Speaker
When I found out about this glass parade where they made all these musical instruments, I couldn't help but wonder maybe they had a day where they decided to make pigs for fun and see who could make the best pig, you know?
00:40:57
Speaker
They're the only two pigs that we know of.
00:40:59
Speaker
There really aren't very many Tiffany glass whimsies that exist out there in the world.
00:41:03
Speaker
I think part of it's probably because the Nash's were so protective about their formula, so there wasn't really a lot of extra material around for people to sort of play with in their free time.
00:41:14
Speaker
I mean, we know from the diary that they only got to make the glass parade stuff because he sort of relented and allowed them to have a little fun.
00:41:22
Speaker
So I wish I knew exactly how or why this was made.
00:41:27
Speaker
I mean, we do know that it went into the family, and we can tell from the condition of it that it's had an interesting life.
00:41:35
Speaker
The four little legs that are on the bottom, the way that they were put on was they were applied while they were hot.
00:41:40
Speaker
So the glass would actually pool and fuse with the body of the pig.
00:41:44
Speaker
I don't know if you can see it in the picture very well.
00:41:47
Speaker
And the same thing with the little ears.
00:41:49
Speaker
They were sort of plopped on while it was hot and then pinched so that they would get that shape.
00:41:54
Speaker
So we have found out after the fact that three of the four legs have been reattached with, and I will say one of them is not done very well.
00:42:04
Speaker
There's a lot of visible glue, but again, this was not like a Tiffany vase.
00:42:09
Speaker
It's not a morning glory vase.
00:42:11
Speaker
It sells for, you know, a lot, tens of thousands of dollars.
00:42:15
Speaker
So they weren't trying to repair this in a way to, you know, maintain the value.
00:42:20
Speaker
It could have just been, you know, this guy's kids were playing with it for fun and they broke the feet off and somebody just glued them back on.
00:42:27
Speaker
And broadly speaking, it could constitute a kind of accessible object that you might begin a collection with because of that, right?
00:42:35
Speaker
Yes, absolutely.
00:42:36
Speaker
I think so.
00:42:36
Speaker
I mean, Tiffany, you know, as young dealers, and also I think we're all young collectors as well,
00:42:44
Speaker
Tiffany can seem very out of reach to us, I think.
00:42:48
Speaker
We know that lamps can sell for millions of dollars.
00:42:51
Speaker
The vases can sell for tens of thousands of dollars.
00:42:54
Speaker
But these pieces of more sort of unusual sort of the cultural objects, the material objects that the firm was making, those definitely are much more attainable to people of
00:43:06
Speaker
our buying power, I guess I'll say.
00:43:08
Speaker
So speaking of people of our buying power, there's a lot of discussion, as we've already discussed, about the ways that young people are involved in the antiques trade and antiques collecting, and I think that
00:43:21
Speaker
Synthesizing all of those discussions, one of the things we know is that the new generation of enthusiasts and dealers and curators will provide a new spin on things.
00:43:32
Speaker
So, for example, thinking about the chocolate pot, there's a lot of research being done now on foodways and on the material culture of food, so we're not just looking at this as a masterpiece of
00:43:43
Speaker
silver, we're looking at it through the context of the foodways that it was produced to serve, right?
00:43:50
Speaker
And I think that whether we look at the decorative qualities of the pistols or at a whimsy instead of at a lamp or a vase, we're kind of looking at these objects in a slightly oblique way that constitute your contribution to discourse on
00:44:07
Speaker
curious objects.
00:44:09
Speaker
So Taylor, I want to look at this table through that lens and while doing that I'd also like to think about your booth at the Winter Show which represents a cross collecting perspective.
Taylor's Eclectic Booth at the Winter Show
00:44:20
Speaker
Well at the Winter Show I was finally able to do a booth that I've always wanted to do and I wanted to do
00:44:31
Speaker
200 years of American design.
00:44:33
Speaker
Of course, for you Victorians and Tiffany people, I kind of glanced past that area a little bit.
00:44:40
Speaker
You were well represented.
00:44:41
Speaker
It's okay.
00:44:43
Speaker
But, you know, when I started out in this business, my mentor was a gentleman named, a former winter show dealer named Sumter Pretty.
00:44:54
Speaker
And actually a person who worked with me there is in the audience today and she's now with the Met.
00:44:57
Speaker
So, hey, we can all go different places starting in this world.
00:45:02
Speaker
But, you know, when I came upon these objects, you know, if we look at, let's say, the work of Willett and Piercy here, we get these dramatic Rococo influenced lines and
00:45:16
Speaker
I use the term sexy legs because in my mind, yes, those are very sexy balls and claws.
00:45:21
Speaker
It just had so much going on.
00:45:25
Speaker
But then... Shouldn't it be covered?
00:45:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:29
Speaker
This is the 18th century here.
00:45:31
Speaker
But we then go on in the future...
00:45:36
Speaker
Let's fast forward 200 years.
00:45:38
Speaker
What do we see?
00:45:39
Speaker
We see people like Paul Evans who comes up with the most fascinating, brutalist furniture.
00:45:46
Speaker
And why not set that right next to my sexy table?
00:45:50
Speaker
You know?
00:45:53
Speaker
It's...
00:45:54
Speaker
If you look at the lens of American design, we've been producing great things for 200 years.
00:46:00
Speaker
There's no time limit on any of this stuff.
00:46:03
Speaker
And just because I personally prefer 18th century furniture, that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate a Paul Evans disc bar, which is this big disc and you open it up and hey, it's a bar.
00:46:21
Speaker
But I think it's important
00:46:24
Speaker
as young collectors, I find that people aren't tracing things as much as they used to in, well, I have to own every one of these groups, or I bought a period home, we have to fill it full of period furniture.
00:46:36
Speaker
Why do we have fun with it?
00:46:37
Speaker
I mean, why should we limit ourselves?
00:46:41
Speaker
And I think young collectors, more so than our generations past, we care about great design.
00:46:50
Speaker
It's not that
00:46:51
Speaker
people in our generation, and I hope you all expand on this, don't care about this stuff.
00:46:56
Speaker
It's just, I don't think we like to be limited, you know?
00:47:00
Speaker
We didn't grow up having the, what, 24 photographs that we can take in a camera or whatever?
00:47:06
Speaker
We can take millions of photographs, though.
00:47:10
Speaker
Why limit ourselves?
00:47:11
Speaker
Why close things down?
00:47:15
Speaker
I think it's important.
00:47:17
Speaker
One interesting thing about the way that all of us here are talking about our objects is that we are, I think all five of us, are in one degree or another connoisseurs.
00:47:30
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that we are focusing on the minute details of the design.
00:47:42
Speaker
Maybe we're interested in those minute details, but that's not the starting place.
00:47:46
Speaker
The starting place, when you look at a pair of pistols like that, is...
00:47:49
Speaker
What's the story?
00:47:50
Speaker
Who's the person behind it?
00:47:53
Speaker
What battle was he in and what happened to him there?
00:47:55
Speaker
I mean, that's incredible and it brings life to the objects.
00:47:59
Speaker
For me, thinking about the Molinet, it's an interesting work of silversmithing and it's a rarity.
00:48:06
Speaker
But more interesting to me than all of that is the story that it has to tell about
00:48:12
Speaker
dining customs, but also about globalization and transatlantic trade and about the economy and saving and investing and the ways that people have thought about their assets over time.
00:48:26
Speaker
You know, you can link these objects to so many different elements of history, of society, of culture, of anthropology, of psychology.
00:48:35
Speaker
And that is all relevant today as much as it ever has been throughout the lives of these objects.
00:48:42
Speaker
So I think, you know, for many modern collectors, those are the elements that really get us excited about these
Historic Objects vs. Modern Consumerism
00:48:50
Speaker
things.
00:48:50
Speaker
So what can they tell us about the people before us and what can they tell us about ourselves?
00:48:57
Speaker
And if I've just bought a 17th century house and I happen to want a Paul Evans disc bar to go in it, by God, I'll just do it.
00:49:08
Speaker
And I'll also buy some 17th century furniture.
00:49:11
Speaker
You know, tomorrow night I was actually planning on playing cards on my card table.
00:49:16
Speaker
So if you all come by for Young Collectors Night, maybe we will have a jolly good time.
00:49:21
Speaker
We can have a live vignette.
00:49:23
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:49:23
Speaker
I think one thing that you did that's
00:49:25
Speaker
Brilliant, though, is that so many people of our generation, as you mentioned, the generation before would fill their 17th century house or 18th century house with the like furniture.
00:49:34
Speaker
But I think people don't realize that the mid-century or the early American can all kind of work together.
00:49:42
Speaker
And maybe not every piece with every piece, but the styles are completely able to go across.
00:49:48
Speaker
And that's something that I do in my own home, but obviously.
00:49:52
Speaker
I think as antique dealers and antiquarians and everything, across the board, I think we recognize quality when we see it.
00:50:02
Speaker
I think most of us have owned IKEA furniture in our lifetime.
00:50:05
Speaker
Still do.
00:50:06
Speaker
And it's great, but you know what?
00:50:09
Speaker
If we can see great pieces or great things, why not own them?
00:50:14
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:50:15
Speaker
I want to open up the floor to some audience questions, if there are any.
00:50:20
Speaker
So raise your hand.
00:50:21
Speaker
Kat will find you.
00:50:24
Speaker
Hi, Eve.
00:50:25
Speaker
Hi, everyone.
00:50:26
Speaker
Thank you.
00:50:26
Speaker
That was rivetingly fascinating.
00:50:29
Speaker
I have one Antiques Roadshow question.
00:50:31
Speaker
None of you have talked about the value of the piece.
00:50:35
Speaker
Retail, insurance, you tell me.
00:50:40
Speaker
Well, some people would say that's gauche.
00:50:45
Speaker
No, that's an important starting place for almost any collector is to think about what is a reasonable sum for you to pay for something, what's a feasible sum for you to pay for something.
00:51:01
Speaker
I think, Michael, your story about your object is a great starting place.
00:51:07
Speaker
I'm at the low end over here.
00:51:09
Speaker
I apologize.
00:51:11
Speaker
Yeah, this cost $200.
00:51:15
Speaker
and I could sell it for more.
00:51:17
Speaker
So, you know, in that sense, from an investment standpoint, it was a successful investment of $200 that might have otherwise gone to decadent cocktails in the Lower East Side.
00:51:31
Speaker
I mean, when my curator and critic friends are sort of judging me for being involved in the decorative arts,
00:51:39
Speaker
You know, I remind them, you were in the Maldives last week in a luxury modernist villa that definitely cost at least a few thousand dollars a night.
00:51:47
Speaker
My late Baroque chair that I got on the side of the road is not as implicated in problematic labor practices as your villa in the Maldives, okay?
00:51:56
Speaker
I don't care if you're a curator at MoMA.
00:51:59
Speaker
So, yeah, I think that it's a great example of a starting point.
00:52:03
Speaker
And the winter show has one of the world's most stringent vetting processes.
00:52:08
Speaker
So, you know, something to note is that anything that's been on the show floor was vetted by experts for authenticity, date, and condition.
00:52:16
Speaker
But that doesn't make everything on the show floor heinously expensive.
Antiques Pricing at the Winter Show
00:52:21
Speaker
So, you know, this is a show that has...
00:52:24
Speaker
that's full of masterpieces and museum quality works, but there are things like the whimsy, for example, that are more accessible.
00:52:32
Speaker
And there is transparent pricing in our ethos, so you can know how much these things cost.
00:52:39
Speaker
Yes, so I mean the pig for example we sort of briefly touched on it but the cabinet in our booth full of Tiffany glass there is quite a range of pricing in terms of what is available.
00:52:53
Speaker
We do have some really spectacular rare examples of the art glass.
00:52:57
Speaker
These are paperweight vases, this is a technique that Tiffany pioneered.
00:53:01
Speaker
Those, some of them are $45,000.
00:53:02
Speaker
We've had vases that are over $100,000.
00:53:03
Speaker
Obviously that is of a different realm.
00:53:09
Speaker
But we always make sure when we come to a show like the Winter Show that we bring a range of objects because we know that this show attracts a whole, you know, complete range of buyers, people who are just starting out who know that this is a great place to train your eye.
00:53:26
Speaker
collecting for years who know that there is a vetting process here that will enable you to feel comfortable about purchasing something that you may not necessarily have the experience in collecting outside of a category you are not comfortable with.
00:53:40
Speaker
So we try and incorporate that sort of into our booth.
00:53:42
Speaker
So we have the $45,000 vase but we also have the
00:53:47
Speaker
a cabinet vase that is under a thousand dollars there's there's quite a range of options well and james got his pistols uh at age six so they they couldn't have been that expensive when i started collecting yeah i think the first um it's called a muff pistol uh which has a highly detailed silver inlay on the handle i think it cost about 200 they have now gone up in price since then um
00:54:14
Speaker
But that was then.
00:54:16
Speaker
I also will say that unfairly since I've known them since I was five, they do give me a very good number.
00:54:25
Speaker
So I would probably say that the insurance, if you'd like to know, is probably close to $16,000, but I didn't pay anything near that.
00:54:36
Speaker
I think most dealers at the show will also honor a Curious Objects listener discount.
00:54:40
Speaker
Yes, of course, they all do.
00:54:42
Speaker
Just mention that.
00:54:44
Speaker
And Taylor, your Curious Object is possibly not quite as accessible, but... I can give you great references, though.
00:54:53
Speaker
Yes, and but...
00:54:56
Speaker
Wood furniture, I'm not going to say brown furniture because I almost lost my life a few years ago when I said that live on a tour of the winter show and people were very mad at me even though I didn't mean it in a pejorative way.
00:55:10
Speaker
Wood furniture is incredibly accessible right now.
00:55:14
Speaker
I mean, everybody should go out and buy wood furniture and stockpile it and fill your homes with it because it's never been as accessible.
00:55:22
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:55:23
Speaker
And for the beginning collector, you can buy a great American chest of drawers for a very reasonable price.
00:55:33
Speaker
This isn't that reasonable.
00:55:36
Speaker
This table is kind of a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
00:55:40
Speaker
But I will say at Sotheby's and Christie's, it has tripled and quadrupled in price in examples very similar to this.
00:55:50
Speaker
I'm asking $285,000 for the table.
00:55:54
Speaker
But, you know... And you just carried it over here willy-nilly from the back.
00:55:58
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:55:59
Speaker
I have to say, when you live with this stuff, you have a lot more fun.
00:56:04
Speaker
I ate dinner at it one night, too.
00:56:07
Speaker
Most people would cringe at that, but I'm like, it's in my living room, why not?
00:56:12
Speaker
This is actually one thing not to put down museums, but that's actually one thing that I find very interesting, is that we live with these items.
00:56:18
Speaker
We use them.
00:56:19
Speaker
I mean, I drink out of silver sometimes for fun.
00:56:22
Speaker
I was at the other day and you were drinking water out of an antique silver mug because we can.
00:56:28
Speaker
But the key is... It's very environmentally friendly.
00:56:33
Speaker
Antiques are green.
00:56:35
Speaker
But the whole key is that I was talking with another dealer and even though of course museums spend a lot of money to
00:56:42
Speaker
restore and protect and they're very important to our society.
00:56:45
Speaker
The thing that's always very interesting is sometimes when you have these objects and they pass over to a museum, they become white glove objects, but yet we deal with them every day and we take care of them just as well and we care for them just as much.
00:56:56
Speaker
Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, as a collector, Michael, you talked about weakening in the Maldives.
00:57:07
Speaker
I think we can all relate.
00:57:08
Speaker
When does Curious Objects take us?
00:57:10
Speaker
Not me.
00:57:11
Speaker
That's the next.
00:57:14
Speaker
But there's this idea, and I'm a broken record player.
00:57:19
Speaker
You've heard me talk about this on the podcast before.
00:57:23
Speaker
But there's this idea that younger generations in this country are interested really in experiences rather than objects.
00:57:35
Speaker
And I just want to turn that concept on its head because I think it's true.
00:57:40
Speaker
But I also think that if you're investing in the right objects, that those objects are experiences that you can have every day of your life.
00:57:47
Speaker
And it's an experience that only grows in power and importance and emotional impact with every time that you use it.
00:57:56
Speaker
So if your trade-off is a fun night of cocktails versus buying a nice pewter tankard that you can take home and fill with cocktails or something else and drink out of that for the next 10 years, 30 years, 50 years, that seems in some cases to me like a very reasonable trade-off.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah, and we don't have to use the objects for the function they were designed to serve.
00:58:31
Speaker
Maybe with a hot chocolate pot we should.
00:58:33
Speaker
I mean, I'm thinking about, you know, it's January, like, let's do this.
00:58:37
Speaker
Just as long as we don't have to use an 18th century chocolate recipe for the hot chocolate pot.
00:58:40
Speaker
I think there's some Swissmas in the dealer's lounge.
00:58:43
Speaker
We might have this covered.
00:58:43
Speaker
Well, Swissmas, and we also have a Mexican in the audience who I think has some ideas about how chocolate should have been prepared in the 18th century that maybe weren't so current in the colonies in America.
00:58:55
Speaker
But I'm thinking about a party I went to about a year ago on the Lower East Side.
00:59:02
Speaker
where a young antiquarian who is involved in Young Collectors Night and will be here tomorrow had set out a silver monteith or a terrine sort of object.
00:59:14
Speaker
I can't remember quite which.
00:59:16
Speaker
For shame.
00:59:17
Speaker
For shame.
00:59:17
Speaker
I know.
00:59:18
Speaker
I mean, the night was a blur because some cocktails were consumed.
00:59:22
Speaker
But it was full of ice and it was full of beers and wine and the room was candle lit and there were Imari plates glistening on the walls and this was the apartment of a very young couple.
00:59:36
Speaker
And I think it was just so charming that they had put beers in, let's call it a Monteith.
00:59:43
Speaker
That's the most fun configuration of this juxtaposition.
00:59:47
Speaker
And we're treating the material with respect.
00:59:52
Speaker
It was in a place of pride in their home, center stage at this party.
00:59:59
Speaker
But they were using it to serve a function that made sense in their lives in the 21st century.
01:00:06
Speaker
And I think that's great.
01:00:08
Speaker
And I think we have to be able to think creatively about how we use these things so they can be a part of our lives and not just...
01:00:16
Speaker
you know, museum pieces.
01:00:19
Speaker
Do we have more questions now that we've only taken about 20 minutes to answer the first one?
Conclusion and Invitation to Wine Reception
01:00:25
Speaker
Thank you, Eve.
01:00:27
Speaker
No more burning curiosity.
01:00:30
Speaker
Well, we're going to have a wine reception now.
01:00:33
Speaker
And so if you develop any questions over wine, feel free to ask us or our brilliant panelists who will have much more to say if you just poke them.
01:00:43
Speaker
And you know where to find many of these objects around the show floor if you have the chance to visit.
01:00:49
Speaker
A huge thank you to the Winter Show for hosting us, to the magazine Antiques, to James Boning, Ria Murray, and Taylor Tisselthwaite, Michael Lees Griffith, thank you.
01:01:01
Speaker
Ben Miller, thank you.
01:01:03
Speaker
And please stay with us.