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THROWBACK: The Argument for Silver Tableware
31 Plays1 year ago
They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And in the antiques world the sincerest form of imitation is reproduction: the humble and studious attempt to conserve the lessons of the past because of their timeless value. One firm that’s well-versed in this particular form of historical homage is James Robinson, Inc., whose hundred-year partnership with a legacy silver workshop in Sheffield, England, has resulted in what host Ben Miller calls “the best historical-style silver flatware being made today anywhere in the world.”
In this throwback episode, James Boening, director of James Robinson, Inc., and Craig Kent, workshop manager in Sheffield, come on the pod to dish about the vital importance of age-old processes like annealing, and the irony that homeowners would run themselves ragged trying to decide which rug to buy, but will settle for cold, unbalanced steel tableware without even blinking.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Curious Objects' and Silverware
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
00:00:13
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:15
Speaker
This is the podcast about art, decorative arts, and antiques, the stories behind them, and what they can reveal to us about ourselves and the people who came before us.
Significance of Handmade Silverware
00:00:24
Speaker
We are off this week, so we are bringing back a favorite of mine, an episode that is close to my heart because it's about silverware.
00:00:32
Speaker
And when some people say silverware, they mean any old forks and knives.
00:00:37
Speaker
But when I say silverware, I mean silver forks and knives.
00:00:41
Speaker
And ideally, we're talking about handmade, hand-wrought pieces.
00:00:45
Speaker
which each start from an individual ingot.
James Robinson and Sheffield Partnership
00:00:49
Speaker
There's one place in the world that still produces pieces like that today, and this episode takes us deep into the workings of that shop, plus thinking about why that process and quality matters, and why the investment in these quality pieces is worthwhile.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hope you enjoy, and thanks for listening.
00:01:10
Speaker
They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
00:01:13
Speaker
And in the antiques world, the sincerest form of imitation is reproduction.
00:01:18
Speaker
Now, I've always been fascinated by reproductions.
00:01:20
Speaker
For one thing, they represent a genuine love for traditional forms and designs.
00:01:25
Speaker
But they also show a commitment to learning and preserving and passing on craft techniques that could so easily be forgotten.
00:01:32
Speaker
Techniques that have been refined and refined and refined through generations.
00:01:36
Speaker
in which if just one generation fails to learn them, well, the knowledge could vanish forever.
00:01:41
Speaker
We've seen this happen many times, and as a silver dealer, I'm keenly aware of just how few silversmiths today have that deep-in-their-bones kind of skill, especially when it comes to historical techniques.
Historical Lineage of Silver Workshops
00:01:54
Speaker
But when it comes to silverware, there's one company which is maintaining that craft today and the tradition of handmade silver cutlery in the antique style.
00:02:04
Speaker
That firm is James Robinson here in New York City.
00:02:08
Speaker
They've been on Curious Objects before talking about some of their Victorian jewelry, but today we're going to hear about the silver side of their business because they, in partnership with a silver workshop in Sheffield, England, produce and sell the best historical style silver flatware being made today anywhere in the world.
00:02:24
Speaker
I'm joined first by James Boning at their shop in New York.
00:02:27
Speaker
And later I'll be speaking with Craig Kent, who runs the firm's workshop in Sheffield.
00:02:31
Speaker
And he'll talk us through the actual process of hand making these pieces.
00:02:35
Speaker
But first, James, thanks for coming on the show.
Quality and Experience of James Robinson's Silverware
00:02:38
Speaker
James Boning Of course, Ben.
00:02:39
Speaker
Always a pleasure.
00:02:39
Speaker
James Boning Now, your firm sells reproduction flatware in various historical styles, mostly English flatware patterns.
00:02:48
Speaker
When did that all get started?
00:02:51
Speaker
So the workshop as it is now started actually in 1894, but they purchased a workshop that had been open since the late 18th century.
00:03:02
Speaker
And before that was a workshop that was passed down from master to apprentice.
00:03:08
Speaker
So we purchased C.W.
00:03:11
Speaker
Fletcher in 2001, but have been working with them since I think it was the 1930s or 40s.
00:03:22
Speaker
They were C.W.
00:03:23
Speaker
Fletcher, now Fletcher Robinson, and they had purchased actually C.W.
00:03:28
Speaker
a company that was, I think, William Brewis and Sons, who had kept going from Francis Higgins.
00:03:34
Speaker
And that was in the late 18th century.
00:03:37
Speaker
So there's a little bit of a legacy here.
00:03:39
Speaker
Yeah, we can trace it back right now to 1510, the master-apprentice relationship, going back through some very famous early spoon makers like Nicholas Bartholomew and I forget the gentleman's first name, but Brew, B-R-U-E.
00:03:55
Speaker
Wow, that's fantastic.
00:03:57
Speaker
I didn't realize there was such a real genealogy going on there.
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, actually Ebenezer Coker is another person in the master-apprentice relationship all the way through.
Everyday Use of Silverware Benefits
00:04:08
Speaker
Wow, okay.
00:04:09
Speaker
Well, Silver Geek listeners are going crazy right now.
00:04:14
Speaker
Exactly, the few of us, yeah.
00:04:16
Speaker
So in a minute, I'm going to be talking with your workshop manager in Sheffield to take a close look at the process, the craft and what sets it apart.
00:04:27
Speaker
But talk to me about the quality of these pieces.
00:04:31
Speaker
Because I said a minute ago that they're the best being made today.
00:04:35
Speaker
And you didn't pay me to say that.
00:04:38
Speaker
I really think that's true.
00:04:41
Speaker
Because as far as I know, all the other quote unquote handmade silverware out there is cast, mass produced, and at best it's hand finished.
00:04:51
Speaker
So what's different about James Robinson flatware?
00:04:55
Speaker
So what we do is we make everything starting as the English would say an ingot, but for the lay person, a bar, a small bar of silver, different sizes for different pieces of flatware, but it is annealed.
00:05:13
Speaker
So it is heated and hammered and basically that stretches the silver and compacts it.
00:05:18
Speaker
And what that does is it allows it to be stronger.
00:05:21
Speaker
This is how silver would have been made
00:05:23
Speaker
in the 17th, 18th century and earlier.
00:05:27
Speaker
What makes ours different is its density and its strength, because most silver, as you said, is machine made.
00:05:35
Speaker
So even the few other firms that do some hand finishing, they start off by stamping out from a sheet of silver, a almost formed piece of flatware that then they do hand touches to, they finish it.
00:05:50
Speaker
Our flatware is different
00:05:52
Speaker
because what it does is it allows you to use it daily.
00:05:56
Speaker
It allows you to even put it in a dishwasher and it will last the way that 18th century flatware does.
00:06:03
Speaker
We started off selling it, filling in more modern pieces like the iced teaspoon or the butter knife with antique services because it was the only thing really made the way that the antique flatware was.
00:06:19
Speaker
And as we kept selling it, people started asking, can we buy a full service of this?
00:06:23
Speaker
And of course, the answer is yes.
Sensory Experience and Daily Use
00:06:26
Speaker
And we found that, as you know, Ben, it's harder and harder to get a full service of Georgian or earlier flatware that is in good condition, that is the same maker.
00:06:39
Speaker
or even the same few makers to really round out a full service of quality.
00:06:44
Speaker
And people started wanting to just, you know, if they're going to spend those amounts of money, sometimes they wanted to just, you know, make it easier and get something which is as good.
00:06:54
Speaker
It just doesn't have the age.
00:06:56
Speaker
Right.
00:06:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:57
Speaker
But it's made using essentially the same techniques.
00:07:01
Speaker
Again, we'll get into more detail on that with Craig.
00:07:04
Speaker
But yeah, a lot of the same properties that an 18th century service would have had.
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, we use a lot of the modern conveniences with it, like torches and...
00:07:17
Speaker
things like that, that in the old days, they would have had a little bit harder time with exact heat and precise heat.
00:07:22
Speaker
But as you said, you'll speak to Craig about that.
00:07:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:25
Speaker
Well, so with me, you're preaching to the choir.
00:07:29
Speaker
But give me a sales pitch, because for skeptical listeners out there, what is so great, after all, about handmade silver cutlery?
00:07:40
Speaker
Right.
00:07:41
Speaker
For me, generally, my sales pitch has to do with the feel.
00:07:47
Speaker
So the thing that's very hard about selling this flatware is that you don't just look at it online and buy it.
00:07:56
Speaker
And so many people nowadays don't want to have to come and feel it and pick it up.
00:08:00
Speaker
But anything of quality, you can feel the difference.
00:08:03
Speaker
I know coming into this business, and I'm sure you know,
00:08:06
Speaker
with your job have been taught you have to feel things and you have to see them.
00:08:12
Speaker
And when you feel the flatware in your hand and you begin to use it for eating, there is a sensation.
00:08:18
Speaker
It's a very tactile experience.
00:08:21
Speaker
And I think that people that are unwilling to feel it won't ever necessarily understand.
00:08:30
Speaker
But, you know, when you are putting together your home, you...
00:08:36
Speaker
give nice touches in almost every element.
00:08:38
Speaker
You get a nice couch, you put art on the walls, you buy nice things to make you feel at home and feel comfortable.
00:08:45
Speaker
But the one place that people seem to really have let that
00:08:50
Speaker
go is that they seem to buy stainless steel flatware which doesn't have good weight and doesn't necessarily feel nice in their hand.
00:08:58
Speaker
It's all about a look and it's all about looking a certain way.
00:09:01
Speaker
But eating is a very personal experience and can be almost a very, dare I say, sensual experience.
00:09:09
Speaker
It's your hands, it's your body, and the way that things feel
00:09:14
Speaker
you might as well take enjoyment in it.
00:09:16
Speaker
And I think the key is, is other pieces of flatware that you can hold, whether they're sterling or not, don't offer the same experience that ours does.
00:09:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:28
Speaker
I mean, there's something just to riff on that for a second.
00:09:33
Speaker
Sure.
00:09:34
Speaker
You know, the actual experience of using it to get very concrete about it, it really is different from stainless steel cutlery.
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:45
Speaker
You know, it's the metal is highly conductive of heat.
00:09:49
Speaker
So if you're eating a warm soup, the spoon will warm up in your hand, which is just it sounds like an inconsequential thing.
00:09:58
Speaker
But it's it's a real delight.
00:10:00
Speaker
If you're eating ice cream, televisions, they backlight them now for the color to enhance the experience.
00:10:05
Speaker
I agree that.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:06
Speaker
The cold and the warm, it really enhances your experience.
00:10:09
Speaker
It makes you feel more, more part of what you're eating.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I guess eating we think of as being one sense of taste or maybe two if you add smell into that.
00:10:27
Speaker
But touch is really a significant part of it as well.
00:10:31
Speaker
And for your cutlery to be enhancing that experience, I find to be really rewarding.
00:10:40
Speaker
I completely agree.
00:10:41
Speaker
I think that often when you describe food, you describe how it looks, but you use words that you would actually use for touch.
00:10:49
Speaker
Oh, it looks squishy.
00:10:51
Speaker
Oh, it looks firm.
00:10:53
Speaker
They use words like this to describe the food, but you're not picking it up with your hands mostly.
00:10:58
Speaker
And I agree.
00:10:59
Speaker
I think the tactile nature of eating is sometimes lost.
00:11:04
Speaker
Now, you talked a minute ago about using it every day, about putting it in the dishwasher.
00:11:10
Speaker
I mean, people often save their fine china and their silver and so on for special occasions.
00:11:17
Speaker
People will come into our shop and say, oh, you know, I hate having to polish my silver when I take it out for Thanksgiving.
00:11:26
Speaker
And my response to that is generally, well, if you're taking it out once a year, then of course you're going to have to polish it.
00:11:32
Speaker
Whereas if you're using it regularly, then the tarnish actually comes off with use and it doesn't require nearly as much maintenance.
00:11:41
Speaker
What do you say to people who are in the habit of one or two meals a year with their nice things to try to convince them to get more use out of it?
00:11:52
Speaker
Well, I do my best to try to convey to them that
00:11:56
Speaker
eating isn't just something you do once or twice a year and that this is something that, I mean, I know for me, I have two children.
00:12:02
Speaker
I make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
00:12:04
Speaker
I pull out a silver knife to make the sandwich for my children.
00:12:08
Speaker
I love that.
00:12:10
Speaker
And I have a bowl of ice cream or a bowl of cereal, same thing, because you can use this to enjoy all year round.
00:12:15
Speaker
So I say to them the same that you do.
00:12:18
Speaker
You use it more and the more you use it, the less tarnished it will be.
00:12:22
Speaker
Of course, it does tarnish as silver.
00:12:24
Speaker
If you know, you go on vacation, it can tarnish a bit or, you know, if you're not using it as often.
00:12:29
Speaker
I live in New York City as you do, Ben.
00:12:31
Speaker
We eat a lot of Chinese food that also sometimes with the salt, the sodium levels in it can do that.
00:12:37
Speaker
Eggs are something that I usually recommend you rinse off right away.
00:12:40
Speaker
But that would be standard with any silver, no matter if it's mine or any other company.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:46
Speaker
I don't actually treat my flatware in a special way compared to what I would if it was something else, because it's meant to be there every day like your standard flatware should be.
00:12:58
Speaker
And I think that's part of what I try to use to sell it.
00:13:01
Speaker
I try to sell people on that enjoying food doesn't only mean Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, Hanukkah, whatever you celebrate.
Reproductions and Craft Lineage
00:13:09
Speaker
It's an everyday experience.
00:13:11
Speaker
We eat food at least two, three times a day.
00:13:14
Speaker
And every one of those can be a little kind of adventure, you know, a little break from the rest of our life and something that we can sit and enjoy.
00:13:23
Speaker
And why not add one more thing to, you know, to that to enjoy it?
00:13:27
Speaker
And I think that's something our flatware can can do.
00:13:30
Speaker
Now, you guys sell actual antique silver as well as other antique objects and jewelry and so on side by side with reproductions.
00:13:40
Speaker
And I mean, you also sell contemporary jewelry.
00:13:43
Speaker
Do you think about the reproductions differently or do they sort of fit into part of the same craft lineage?
00:13:52
Speaker
Or how do you sort of think about that?
00:13:56
Speaker
I have trouble with the reproduction because I know it's defined as reproduction, our flatware, but we do also have reproduction silver that, you know, these workshops didn't make this style for a long time.
00:14:08
Speaker
But as I explained at the beginning, the lineage of our workshop and some of these patterns, some of the molds that they have, you know, copper molds, just to make sure that the finished product looks right, are 200 years old.
00:14:20
Speaker
And they've been making some of these patterns for that long.
00:14:23
Speaker
So I kind of look at our flatware more like a car production, that each year there's just a new model.
00:14:29
Speaker
Ours just happens to be the same model every year.
00:14:31
Speaker
But I look at it as, as you said at the beginning, it's almost a form of flattery to the earlier designs.
00:14:42
Speaker
The thing that I find the most interesting, frankly, is I get younger people coming in
00:14:48
Speaker
And choosing, you know, our, our Triffid pattern, which dates from the 17th century, and they have a very modern home, a very modern, you know, table and porcelain and, and they find that it's very clean and it's very modern.
00:15:03
Speaker
And, but yet it's, you know, almost 300 years, more than 300 years old now.
00:15:09
Speaker
And it's just very interesting to see.
00:15:12
Speaker
There was an article recently I read about how younger the millennial and its generation X like cleaner, simpler things.
00:15:19
Speaker
But for a time through, you know, through our history as a business, people wanted shells and scrolls.
00:15:23
Speaker
And I think it's interesting to see the reproduction aspect of it to see how things come back into fashion.
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:33
Speaker
What's your pattern?
00:15:35
Speaker
My
Craig Kent's Journey into Silver Craft
00:15:36
Speaker
pattern, I have Queen Anne and I do have some Triffid pieces because as we grow and mature, our tastes change.
00:15:45
Speaker
And Queen Anne is very standard for us, which would be what we call a Hanoverian pattern since we have two Hanoverian patterns.
00:15:53
Speaker
And...
00:15:55
Speaker
Basically, the other Triffid is what I think I've come to really, really love.
00:16:00
Speaker
I think it's timeless.
00:16:02
Speaker
And it was I think it was the first British flatware pattern.
00:16:07
Speaker
That had matching forks and spoons.
00:16:10
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, James Boning.
00:16:13
Speaker
We're going to take a quick break and we'll come back to get the inside story of how these pieces are made.
00:16:22
Speaker
We'll be back in just a minute to talk with Craig Kent in Sheffield.
00:16:26
Speaker
But first, I just want to take a moment to say thanks for listening.
00:16:30
Speaker
I really appreciate it.
00:16:32
Speaker
And I appreciate the comments and suggestions that you send to me at CuriousObjectsPodcast at gmail.com.
00:16:39
Speaker
If you have ideas for guests for future episodes, I'm all ears.
00:16:44
Speaker
I love hearing from you.
00:16:46
Speaker
If you like the podcast and you want to help us out, the easiest thing you can do is just to leave a rating or a review for us on the app that you're using to listen right now, whether that's Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
00:16:57
Speaker
That really helps new listeners to find their way to the show.
00:17:00
Speaker
Or if you want to do that a little more directly, please tell a friend about it.
00:17:04
Speaker
Someone you know who likes antiques are just interesting stories about old things.
00:17:09
Speaker
As always, you can find pictures of the objects we're talking about at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast, or on Instagram at antiquesmag, or on my Instagram at objectiveinterest.
00:17:23
Speaker
Thanks, and here's Craig Kent.
00:17:28
Speaker
Welcome back.
00:17:29
Speaker
I am joined now by Craig Kent, who manages the Cutlery Workshop in Sheffield, England.
00:17:35
Speaker
Nice to speak with you, Craig.
00:17:36
Speaker
And you, Ben, and you.
00:17:38
Speaker
Now, I want to start out with you, because I'm curious, how does
Crafting Handmade Silverware
00:17:44
Speaker
one wind up in this very obscure and archaic sort of business?
00:17:52
Speaker
Well, to be fair, I'm a cabinetmaker by trade many, many years ago.
00:18:01
Speaker
And then through my youth, I...
00:18:05
Speaker
fell in love with a young lady who is now my wife and her father was the former director of the business and through getting to know him over the years he was a hand forger
00:18:24
Speaker
By his trade, he was set on by C.W.
00:18:27
Speaker
Fletcher Silversmith Limited as a young man and then rose to the rank of director.
00:18:35
Speaker
I was in sales and when the business was purchased by James Robinson, I was asked to come into the business to take up the sales reign because to try and increase sales and run the office as far as the paperwork, etc.,
00:18:53
Speaker
because formerly that was all done by the engineer's office staff.
00:18:58
Speaker
Right.
00:18:58
Speaker
So you actually had a background in craft already with the furniture and then transitioned into the silver.
00:19:08
Speaker
How difficult was that?
00:19:10
Speaker
To be fair, I was a cabinet maker.
00:19:16
Speaker
I left college, worked for Viscount Lindley's company with, I think his partner was Matthew Rice.
00:19:25
Speaker
I think it was New Kings Road or on Kings Road the office was.
00:19:29
Speaker
But the workshops were down in Sirencester in a place called Daglingworth.
00:19:36
Speaker
Then I went to work for a guy who made solid oak furniture, everything by hand, the dovetails.
00:19:44
Speaker
We did wooden hinges, et cetera.
00:19:47
Speaker
And so I've got an understanding of craft,
00:19:51
Speaker
if you like, and hand-eye coordination.
00:19:54
Speaker
I'll not say it's the same thing.
00:19:56
Speaker
It's a different material.
00:19:59
Speaker
But where now, you know, sort of I'll inspect and look at different pieces that we create.
00:20:07
Speaker
I've got a feel for it, if that's right.
00:20:13
Speaker
But I'm not a silversmith myself.
00:20:15
Speaker
We've got...
00:20:16
Speaker
very, very highly skilled and experienced craftsmen who create what we create.
00:20:22
Speaker
But as far as a craft, you know, we are the story of a living craft, or that's how I like to think of us.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, so talk me through that craft, because, you know, I spoke earlier with James about the difference between machine-made and handmade.
00:20:44
Speaker
But it's really quite a significant difference, both in terms of the process itself and in terms of the result.
00:20:51
Speaker
And so,
00:20:54
Speaker
I'll encourage listeners to go to the magazineantiques.com slash podcast to see some pictures and videos about how the process works.
00:21:04
Speaker
But talk me through that.
00:21:07
Speaker
I mean, can you tell me about the life of a spoon or a fork sort of from start to finish in the workshop?
00:21:14
Speaker
Yes, in a nutshell.
00:21:16
Speaker
I mean, each and every single piece that we create starts off as a bar of silver or a slit of silver.
00:21:25
Speaker
We use a number of different size bars as in section, depending what we're going to create.
00:21:34
Speaker
You know, a soup ladle comes out of a piece of silver that's obviously a lot larger than a salt shovel, etc.
00:21:41
Speaker
So the craftsmen will take a coil of silver, cut it up into a slit or into slits when we're doing dozens or half dozens, which are at the correct weight, which then they will forge out.
00:21:59
Speaker
Depending on the piece, it will depend on the number of stages.
00:22:03
Speaker
By a stage, I mean the annealing process where they will heat it up with gas and air torch, work it on the anvil with the hammer out to a certain point where they can feel the silver hardening because it's obviously a work hardening material.
00:22:21
Speaker
So once they've heated it up, they'll take it to the first stage where they can't push it any further or you're liable to fracture the silver, etc.,
00:22:32
Speaker
And how do you know when you have to anneal it again?
00:22:36
Speaker
Is that just a matter of feel and experience?
00:22:40
Speaker
Through experience, they will feel, and again, it changes on the different piece that they're doing, as in the section of silver that they're working.
00:22:50
Speaker
But they will feel by, you know...
00:22:55
Speaker
by the feel through the hammer of whether it's beginning to get too hard again.
00:23:01
Speaker
So they're not being able to move it and move the metal where they want to move it in order to create the piece that they're aiming to create.
00:23:08
Speaker
So how many times are they likely to go through that process for a single piece?
00:23:14
Speaker
Again, that depends on the single piece.
00:23:17
Speaker
You know, a salt shovel doesn't need as much hammering as a soup ladle.
00:23:21
Speaker
But generally, you know, anywhere up to sort of seven or eight times the annealing process.
00:23:30
Speaker
But again, it depends on the size of piece that we're creating.
00:23:35
Speaker
I mean, we've made... And when it's being...
00:23:38
Speaker
Sorry, go ahead.
00:23:38
Speaker
No, I was going to say, you know, we've made sort of basting spoons nearly three foot long in the past.
00:23:48
Speaker
Really?
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah, not very often, but, you know, we have made them.
00:23:53
Speaker
So it depends on what, you know, I mean, that piece, it took one to hold it and the other to hit it, you know, because it was so big.
00:24:04
Speaker
You can't sort of hold it in a pair of tongs.
00:24:09
Speaker
Or someone else.
00:24:10
Speaker
I'm curious, when you're doing the annealing,
Hand Forging Techniques and Quality
00:24:15
Speaker
you have to get that piece of silver up to a fairly specific temperature, right?
00:24:21
Speaker
Yes, but I couldn't tell you what temperature that is because, again, we do it by eye.
00:24:27
Speaker
The craftsmen know by heating it up.
00:24:30
Speaker
When it, shall I say, a glowing orange colour, they will know that that's at the right temperature where they can then work the silver for the stage that they're working on.
00:24:45
Speaker
So they go by colour.
00:24:48
Speaker
And in the winter, it's easier because we've not got the sunlight coming through.
00:24:52
Speaker
So it changes.
00:24:53
Speaker
They may have sort of covers over their anvils to protect the sunlight.
00:24:59
Speaker
Or to hide the sunlight from the anvils.
00:25:03
Speaker
Because again, they'll heat it.
00:25:06
Speaker
They go a little bit on time as well, but essentially it's by knowing what colour the silver is.
00:25:12
Speaker
Then they'll take it from the hearth onto the anvil and then begin to work it with the hammer and tongs.
00:25:22
Speaker
Wow.
00:25:22
Speaker
So at the end of this process, after all of the hammering and the annealing and the hammering and the annealing, what do you end up with?
00:25:30
Speaker
What we call a blank, which it's a blank that we call it, you know, it's totally hand forged.
00:25:39
Speaker
So we are able, the big difference between mass production and the way that we produce, we forge each and every single blank and put the metal where it's needed for
00:25:54
Speaker
such as on the back of bowls where there's a the rat tail on what we call rat tail or queen hand pattern, you know, which is a decorative piece and a strengthening piece on the back of the bowls.
00:26:08
Speaker
But whereas in a cross roll blank that, you know, more mass produced cutlery will be formed from,
00:26:16
Speaker
That's a flat piece of sheet so you can't have the, they'll still put a rat tail on it but where the rat tail is formed it obviously forms thin creases down the side of it.
00:26:30
Speaker
So it's not got the meat of the metal where the pattern, if you're doing a fancy piece as we call it, the pattern pieces, they can't put the metal where it's needed.
00:26:43
Speaker
On the tip of a bowl, all our blanks are forged on the tip of where, if it's a spoon, where the bowl's going to be.
00:26:52
Speaker
On the tip of the bowl, it will be thicker because obviously, you know, in years to come, I mean, we like to think that we're making the antiques of the future.
From Silver Blank to Finishing Touches
00:27:03
Speaker
It's where all the whey will take place, whether it be a teaspoon that's stirring the bottom of the cup over years.
00:27:11
Speaker
Sometimes we rework old pieces, repair old pieces and the forks tend to, if it's a person who uses the fork in the left hand, then the right hand prong as you're looking at the fork will tend to wear down because that's where it's getting stabbed into the piece of meat or whatever it is that they're eating.
00:27:36
Speaker
And over the years, you'll find that the forks will sort of angle through wear.
00:27:42
Speaker
Well, it's interesting that you're talking about, even when you're making the blanks, you're already thinking about the wear patterns.
00:27:51
Speaker
Yes.
00:27:51
Speaker
That it's going to take on over years or decades or centuries of use.
00:27:55
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:27:56
Speaker
And it goes back even at that very early stage in the process.
00:27:59
Speaker
You're thinking about where to concentrate that metal.
00:28:04
Speaker
You can tell a hand forged piece because the tip of the bowl on a spoon will be thicker than if it was just made out of a sheet of metal.
00:28:19
Speaker
We create our sheets of metal, as in that we create our own blanks, but we can put the metal where we know it's going to be needed to create a lot stronger, a lot better, a lot harder, a lot longer wearing piece, which as I say, they are, you know, they will be the antiques of the future.
00:28:41
Speaker
So once you have a blank, what's the next step?
00:28:45
Speaker
Again, depending on the piece, but if it's a spoon or a ladle, then that will obviously be forged out, so it's obviously a lot larger where the bowl's going to be.
00:28:59
Speaker
That will then be scaled.
00:29:01
Speaker
where we will have a number of different scales, hundreds of different scales for different shape bowls, etc.
00:29:10
Speaker
We will scale around the bowl.
00:29:12
Speaker
It will be formed into where the shank meets the bowl, what we call the neck.
00:29:18
Speaker
That will be stamped using a press, what we call shank the piece, and that just forms
00:29:30
Speaker
in the dies or the shanking dies just forms the roundness or the shape of the neck.
00:29:40
Speaker
Then we scale it, as in we draw around it, we will then hand file round to the line of the scale so that we know that that shape will, when we put it with the correct bowling punch under the drop stamp to
00:29:57
Speaker
When you make the bowls, you first draft them in, which is you'll run a tin or they used to use lead and tin, lead initially and then lead and tin to just make it a bit harder, but we now use tin solely.
00:30:12
Speaker
and we heat the tin up and again on the videos on the website you'll be able to see it but we heat the tin up so it's molten we will then put that into the what we call the chuck in the drop stamp and in the top chuck
Polishing and Finishing Process
00:30:31
Speaker
you will have the bowling punch which is going to create your bowl
00:30:36
Speaker
And that bowling punch will be lowered down into the tin, the molten tin.
00:30:40
Speaker
Well, it'll already be down there.
00:30:42
Speaker
And then we pour the tin in around it, which then gives us a shape of the bowl that we're wanting to create.
00:30:50
Speaker
We will then put the blank, I mean the blank will have been shanked, it will have had the top end as in the pattern if it's Queen Anne, early English hollow rib pattern.
00:31:07
Speaker
That will have been sized out partially, it will have been stamped to put the pattern on.
00:31:13
Speaker
it will have been tailed if there's a tail or a heel on the back of the bowl and that's done under the press but then we will come to bowl it and we will put it over the tin once the tin's hardened off which only takes sort of you know a minute or so we'll put that over and then bring the the bowling punch down
00:31:37
Speaker
and draft it in which is sort of hit it slower we don't give it a full weight of the uh the press or sorry the drop stamp to to come down on it we'll sort of draft it in to form the shape um and so long as it's you know lining up correctly etc then you know at the end we will give it a couple of drops of the uh
00:32:03
Speaker
hammer as it were, or the bowling punch, it'll come down and form the bowl.
00:32:09
Speaker
We then take that into the filing shop where it's struck off, which is basically making the top of the bowl flat so you get that nice round or the shape that you want in.
00:32:24
Speaker
The fash which is formed by striking off will be taken off and then the shank will be filed up all by hand each individual piece.
00:32:38
Speaker
It will be filed up smoothed round and then ready for the buffing shop.
00:32:46
Speaker
where we smooth file it, get it to a stage where it's all smooth filed.
00:32:56
Speaker
The buffing shop will then take the piece and then again using what we call pumice now.
00:33:07
Speaker
We mix pumice, it's like sand, we used to use sand from the River Trent, but that was many, many moons ago.
00:33:15
Speaker
So we use pumice and oil, vegetable oil.
00:33:20
Speaker
to then lift up the buffer will pick that up and it's used as an abrasive really to then smooth off the piece inside the bowls or inside the prongs we go down using different
00:33:40
Speaker
Buffs, different shaped buffs for the different processes that we need down the roots of the prongs, the insides of the prongs.
00:33:50
Speaker
They will buff and again they're using the pumice constantly to work the piece into its final shape.
00:34:00
Speaker
and thereafter it then goes into the finishing shop where it will be polished up.
00:34:07
Speaker
We use different rouges which is again kind of an abrasive or a polishing powder to get the, we use two finishes really, predominantly we use the antique finish or the butler finish where we will take a piece and polish it fully up to a bright finish, what we call it.
00:34:30
Speaker
and then we will apply the butler finish through a... It's like a dolly or a wheel which slightly scratches, for the want of a better word, slightly scratches the piece to give it that antique replica look.
00:34:51
Speaker
It won't give it a patina, that's only built up over years.
00:34:56
Speaker
But it'll stop it being fully bright polished and it'll give it more of an antique look or a butler's finish as we call it.
00:35:06
Speaker
Which is what people tend to associate with silver more than anything.
00:35:10
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:35:10
Speaker
I mean,
Customization and Bespoke Craftsmanship
00:35:11
Speaker
you know, any bright piece that you have, you've only to wash it, you know, a few times and it naturally will have scratched with other pieces unless you're going to, you know, sort of wash each individual piece in a bowl of water, warm water, you know, individually.
00:35:27
Speaker
But if you're going to put six forks or spoons in the sink...
00:35:31
Speaker
in the bowl to wash, then they will rattle around in the bottom of the bowl as you're picking one up to wash.
00:35:38
Speaker
Sure.
00:35:39
Speaker
I mean, it's an incredibly intricate process and certainly a great deal more complex than I think most people think about or consider when they're using cutlery.
00:35:54
Speaker
Well, you know, most manufactured pieces or mass-produced pieces, they are out of a die.
00:36:02
Speaker
They're a full-length die.
00:36:03
Speaker
And they will be bowled up, bent and set, which is a bend on the neck of the spoon or the fork in one go.
00:36:13
Speaker
Whereas we do that totally by hand.
00:36:15
Speaker
So the filers will take a...
00:36:20
Speaker
a copper sample of the piece that they're creating and then they will bend each and every fork or spoon to that sample so hopefully in years to come you know you come back to add to your collection or you know to your service then if you order some more then you'll be getting exactly the same piece
00:36:40
Speaker
because how we do it hasn't changed in you know since God was allowed so well that's the next thing I wanted to ask you about because you know the methods that you're describing are certainly quite familiar for for me and you know as I think about the 18th or 17th or 19th century silver that I work with
00:37:08
Speaker
What would you say are the major differences or how major are the differences between the process that you use in the workshop today versus how similar pieces would have been made 200 to 300 years ago?
00:37:24
Speaker
Fundamentally, they are exactly the same through, you know,
00:37:32
Speaker
modernization or the industrial revolution and mechanics came more into it, you know, such as the drop stamp.
00:37:38
Speaker
We've now got a motor on top of the drop stamp, an electric motor, but we still have to lift it by a long belt.
00:37:46
Speaker
Now, you know, years ago, and in the former premises where they were, you had sort of long, long belts, but running on wheels, which, you know, were
00:37:58
Speaker
quite dangerous in certain scenarios.
00:38:04
Speaker
So, modernisation of the drop stamp has come along.
00:38:10
Speaker
Things like the bowling punches.
00:38:12
Speaker
I mean, we've got bowling punches in the workshops.
00:38:15
Speaker
You know, the fact that the bowling punch is steel and that forms the silver into a what we call a female, the tin, and forms that shape up, it's still a steel punch that's been hit or dropped.
00:38:34
Speaker
into that silver bowl area.
00:38:36
Speaker
Now years gone by we've got punctures in the workshops which they're all you know they might be eight inches long six inches long with a bowling punch on the end of them all forged but the top of
00:38:51
Speaker
the bowling punch is like nailed over and that's where, I don't know whether it was the apprentice that used to hit them, but the master craftsman and his apprentice would bowl them up, but you'd literally physically hold the bowling punch or a piece of metal, you know, with the bowling punch on.
00:39:11
Speaker
and either the master craftsman or the apprentice would hit the other end.
00:39:15
Speaker
Now over years we've got them where they're just like nailed over but that's how they used to do it, they used to hit it with a big hammer.
00:39:24
Speaker
Well now we've got a drop stamp which again it forms the bowling punch over the silver bowl and still forms it.
00:39:33
Speaker
But that's a difference that, you know, we don't hit it with a hammer anymore because you might get your fingers into it.
00:39:40
Speaker
So it's doing the same thing, just a little bit, I guess, more predictably.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's modernized.
00:39:49
Speaker
In that aspect, it's more mechanical, but it's still, you know, I mean, now when we hold a blank over the bowling punch, the craftsman's finger is a few inches from, you know, a sort of a...
00:40:04
Speaker
a very heavy chuck coming down at a fair old pace.
00:40:07
Speaker
Once you let go, you can't stop it.
00:40:10
Speaker
So the idea is not to have anything in the way apart from what should be in the way of it.
00:40:14
Speaker
Right.
00:40:18
Speaker
Other than that, then we still hand file, we still hand set the necks, the angles that you want on the pieces.
00:40:28
Speaker
We still hand bend the tips of what we call the top ends just to get the bend.
00:40:37
Speaker
With the patterns that we create, because we do it by hand, you can have certain patterns bent up, bent down,
00:40:47
Speaker
Depending.
00:40:48
Speaker
Traditionally a spoon will always have been bent, what we call, bent down.
00:40:53
Speaker
Because spoons traditionally, as you'll know, were laid down on the table with the bowl facing down.
00:40:59
Speaker
So that's why, you know, if not, they wobble if they're bent the other way.
00:41:04
Speaker
But some patterns are bent up, some patterns are bent down.
00:41:09
Speaker
so it's personal choice but that's the beauty of how we create the pieces if you go into James Robinson for example and you say well I love these forks but can you make them with four prongs or they're a little bit big those can you just make them a bit smaller or you know got a family member who's got really big hands they'd like them
00:41:36
Speaker
A quarter of an inch, an eighth of an inch, 316ths, longer.
00:41:40
Speaker
Can you do that?
00:41:42
Speaker
We can.
00:41:43
Speaker
Mass-produced stuff that comes out of a die cannot unless they're going to go to the trouble of having a new die cut.
00:41:51
Speaker
We've made pieces before for people that... Well, we once made, I think it was 24 player settings, but one player setting for the gentleman who purchased the silver...
00:42:06
Speaker
He had, I believe it was a gentleman, it could have been a lady, but the client, shall we say, had arthritis.
00:42:15
Speaker
So they needed the handles to be bulkier, you know, but in keeping with the pattern, I believe it was early English.
00:42:25
Speaker
So we made some sort of heavy-duty pieces, one play setting for the client, but the rest of the table was set out exactly the same as what we call standard pieces.
00:42:38
Speaker
I mean, I hate to use that word because our pieces are not standard, but they are to us.
00:42:44
Speaker
But, you know, so we're able to create... On the planar patterns, we are able to create...
00:42:52
Speaker
anything you like within reason but as I say we've made bursting spoons three foot long before you know from one piece that's incredible I would love to see that I can send you some pictures you know of how we made it sort of thing but
00:43:09
Speaker
What I still find fascinating, Ben, is the fact that I've got sort of a little embassy pattern salt shovel in my hand now, and that is made exactly the same way as a three-foot basting spoon or a 12, 13-inch soup ladle or gravy spoon or any of the pieces.
00:43:32
Speaker
It's forged, it's cut to size in the ingot, the slit, it's heated, it's annealed, it's forged out for as many stages as the piece needs.
00:43:42
Speaker
It's bowled, it's bent, it's filed, it's polished exactly the same way.
00:43:49
Speaker
Apart from the three foot spoon because one held it in the tongs and one hit it with the hammer because it was physically too big to work by one person.
00:44:01
Speaker
But we've had a number of different pieces that, upon request, they might send us a stainless steel piece and say, well, can you make those?
00:44:18
Speaker
We've made what we call a paellus fork, which is kind of a spoon bowl, but it's
00:44:24
Speaker
We cut the prongs into it and it's a fork as well.
00:44:30
Speaker
Napoleon's knife fork, you know, we've made those in the past.
00:44:35
Speaker
Whether it be a lobster pick, you know, anything, you can have whatever size you like, you know, if you've got any particular...
00:44:45
Speaker
requirements, but that's the beauty of what we can do.
00:44:49
Speaker
And we love a challenge, you know, we quite often get sent to ideas that James may have, you know, Craig, can you do this?
00:44:58
Speaker
And, you know, I'll speak to the guys and it's like, well, yeah, I think so.
00:45:02
Speaker
And all they say is we can try one.
00:45:05
Speaker
So we'll try one, you know, and we'll send them over either by photo or physical piece over to James Robinson.
00:45:15
Speaker
And they will decide whether it's, you know, it's right.
00:45:18
Speaker
They may tweak it.
00:45:19
Speaker
They may, you know, have opinions on it.
00:45:21
Speaker
And if it can be done, then we'll do it for them.
00:45:27
Speaker
What's the strangest request that James has sent over to you?
00:45:33
Speaker
I don't know.
00:45:34
Speaker
He keeps us guessing, to be fair.
00:45:36
Speaker
I know he sent us some pieces which were hinged in the middle.
00:45:43
Speaker
And because we cannot find a hinge, as in a fork and spoon, so you can literally wind down and go to a restaurant and take your own...
Future of the Workshop and Apprentice Training
00:45:55
Speaker
flatware and unfortunately we couldn't get a hinge to be that you know they're just not made I don't believe anymore we did some digging around but it's still ongoing if I hear of anybody who can make really small hinges you know we looked at sort of the hinges that you know spectacles are made with and stuff but that one still it's still in the still work in progress
00:46:21
Speaker
Okay.
00:46:23
Speaker
But yeah, again, we love a challenge and occasionally we get asked to scratch his heads and think whether we can do it and it's not very often that we fail, I would like to think.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:38
Speaker
So if you have any ideas, then just give it a call and I'll send you the picture of the large spoon and then if you want to order one of those, then it's no problem, we can make you one.
00:46:51
Speaker
That is very exciting.
00:46:52
Speaker
And actually, I'm going to take this as a personal challenge to try to come up with something that you can't make.
00:46:58
Speaker
Well, yeah, okay, yeah, with all ears.
00:47:01
Speaker
Just to sort of close out here,
00:47:06
Speaker
What does the future of the workshop look like?
00:47:13
Speaker
Are you seeking out apprentices to study the craft and carry it on into the next generation?
00:47:21
Speaker
Yes, I mean, as you'll appreciate, we've had a number of tough years, you know, more recently.
00:47:28
Speaker
But we've...
00:47:30
Speaker
The only way to pass the craft on is by apprenticeships.
00:47:36
Speaker
Now, I don't mean a 16-year-old apprentice.
00:47:42
Speaker
We may take someone with, I'll not say similar skills, but as long as they have got good hand-eye coordination,
00:47:50
Speaker
And, you know, they may have worked in different trades that can, some of the skills can be, you know, adapted.
00:48:01
Speaker
But we, you know, we are looking to obviously, you know, as and when necessary, take the apprentice on to pass the craft on for the next generation, you know, in order to, you know, keep the, keep the craft
Conclusion and Credits
00:48:15
Speaker
alive.
00:48:15
Speaker
Well, Craig Gunn, thank you so much.
00:48:17
Speaker
I really appreciate your time.
00:48:18
Speaker
No problem at all, Ben.
00:48:19
Speaker
It's been lovely to speak to you.
00:48:22
Speaker
That's our show for today.
00:48:23
Speaker
Thanks for listening.
00:48:24
Speaker
We've got a pretty cool one queued up for next time, so stay tuned.
00:48:28
Speaker
In the meantime, today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati.
00:48:32
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
00:48:33
Speaker
And I'm Ben Miller.