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Learning to Love Antique Rugs, with Jan David Winitz: Part 2
15 Plays1 year ago
In this episode with Claremont Rug Company, president and founder Jan Winitz and Ben Miller explore myths about rugs, and the symbolic meanings of colors in rugs and importance of signatures. Winitz introduces his Oriental Rug Market Pyramid, which categorizes rugs from high collectible to reproduction levels, illustrating this and other points with four Persian Ferahan Sarouks, each of which represents a different quality level and degree of rarity.
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Transcript
Introduction and Show Focus
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
00:00:14
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:15
Speaker
This is the podcast about art, decorative arts, and antiques, the stories behind them, and what they can reveal to us about ourselves and the people who came before us.
Voice Condition Explanation
00:00:24
Speaker
Now before we get started, I just need to quickly note something about, well, about my voice.
00:00:30
Speaker
After the last couple of episodes, some of you have very kindly reached out with well wishes for recovery from my cold.
00:00:37
Speaker
And it's true, my voice has been hoarse and faltering over the last few months.
00:00:42
Speaker
What I've learned is that it's not actually a cold at all, but it's a neurological condition with the fancy Latin name spasmodic dysphonia, which sounds scarier than it is.
00:00:56
Speaker
Now, it's not easy to treat, but it is treatable.
00:00:59
Speaker
And my hope is that in a few episodes from now, I'll be back to those dulcet tones that I strive to bring you.
00:01:06
Speaker
But in the meantime, I will do my best to be at least intelligible.
00:01:10
Speaker
And thank you very much for bearing with me.
Recap and Current Episode Introduction
00:01:15
Speaker
Now, last episode, we talked with Jan David Winnitz of the Claremont Rug Company about a special rug that has dovetailed with his career as an antique rug dealer.
00:01:24
Speaker
If you haven't listened to that episode yet, now would be a great time to check it out because today we are back here in Oakland with another partnership episode with Jan and Claremont Rugs.
00:01:34
Speaker
And we have not one but four curious objects that are going to help us get into the weeds about rugs, and especially that high end of collectible antique oriental rugs.
00:01:44
Speaker
Now, listeners may remember earlier this year we did an advice episode on buying antique rugs, and that episode has a lot of helpful tips, especially for newcomers to the rug world.
00:01:55
Speaker
But
00:01:56
Speaker
Today, Jan and I are going to focus on four rugs that are all collector's items, but there are differences between them that are going to help educate us about what makes a rug good, better, or the best.
00:02:10
Speaker
And I'm very excited.
00:02:11
Speaker
I think this is going to be a lot of fun.
00:02:13
Speaker
Jan, welcome back.
00:02:15
Speaker
Thank you, Ben.
00:02:16
Speaker
Thank you.
00:02:17
Speaker
Now, I won't make you answer any more rapid-fire questions this time, but before we get into our curious objects, I did want to ask you about some rug myths.
00:02:27
Speaker
And maybe you can tell me whether these are true or myths or somewhere
Understanding Persian Rugs
00:02:32
Speaker
in between.
00:02:32
Speaker
How does that sound?
00:02:33
Speaker
That sounds great.
00:02:34
Speaker
Okay, so is it true or is it a myth that Persian rugs sometimes include intentional quote-unquote mistakes because only God is supposed to create perfection?
00:02:47
Speaker
I've heard that many times, but I would say that really great, particularly Persian tribal rugs that were made on the countryside and village rugs that are made in small towns, they are filled with
00:03:00
Speaker
replete with what one might call mistakes.
00:03:06
Speaker
Because they were... It's like a really great folk guitarist.
00:03:13
Speaker
He sits down with this instrument.
00:03:16
Speaker
He may be starting to create a rhythm, but then when he gets into it, he just starts jamming.
00:03:22
Speaker
And maybe he doesn't even know what's going to happen next, but a deeper aspect of himself is expressing itself.
00:03:29
Speaker
That's what the great Persian village and tribal roads are doing.
00:03:33
Speaker
But it's a series of people like a band of, depending on the size of the rug, working on a vertical loom.
00:03:40
Speaker
It could be from four to eight people working together.
00:03:44
Speaker
And they're all creating something in harmony, but something different.
00:03:50
Speaker
And so there's continual nuances there.
00:03:56
Speaker
Like maybe one of the women, and particularly in one of the small villages, she weaves a little bird into the rug.
00:04:02
Speaker
That may be because there was a flock of birds flying overhead.
00:04:06
Speaker
She may weave a little child into a rug.
00:04:08
Speaker
Maybe it's because her baby came up to the, or her young child came up to the foot of the loom and started screaming while she was weaving.
00:04:19
Speaker
They put the sunshine in the rug.
00:04:22
Speaker
They put clouds in the rug because it's what touches them in the moment is put into that rug.
00:04:28
Speaker
Is that a mistake?
00:04:29
Speaker
Uh-uh.
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:31
Speaker
No.
00:04:32
Speaker
It's basically the expression of what touched them at that moment.
00:04:35
Speaker
Right.
00:04:37
Speaker
Well, as a mandolin player, I really appreciate the folk musician analogy there.
00:04:42
Speaker
You're full of great metaphors.
00:04:43
Speaker
Is it true or is it a myth that a higher knot count on a rug means higher quality?
Rug Design and Symbolism
00:04:50
Speaker
Both.
00:04:52
Speaker
In Persian city rugs, where they're about, their modus operandi is a very finely drawn, petite,
00:05:03
Speaker
made almost microscopic design changes, the knot count, very high knot count of 400 to 500 knots per square inch is necessary to do that.
00:05:13
Speaker
In Persian or tribal Caucasian, tribal rugs, where their modus operandi is to create something that shows the rugged quality of the earth,
00:05:27
Speaker
A lower knot count is actually in many cases beneficial, more beneficial than a higher knot count.
00:05:34
Speaker
So it really depends on the type of rug.
00:05:39
Speaker
And I have a family member who, when I was learning about rugs, all the dealers would show the back of the rug.
00:05:48
Speaker
And she was blatantly, we were New Yorkers, so she was blatant.
00:05:52
Speaker
She would turn the rug back over and she would say, I prefer to look at the rugs from the front.
00:05:59
Speaker
And what she was saying, it's not what the knots, the fact there's three, four, five hundred knots, squirch in the rug.
00:06:07
Speaker
It's what the knots are expressing.
00:06:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:12
Speaker
Well, that sounds a lot like painting, for example.
00:06:15
Speaker
You know, there are so many different styles and approaches, and just because a painting looks a little more slapdash or a little less detailed doesn't necessarily reflect its value or its importance or its creativity.
00:06:29
Speaker
Well, you know, the interesting thing is being in Antique Rugs and dealing with my clients who also collect other art forms,
00:06:38
Speaker
One of the first things that happens is when I say the price of the rug, they say, huh?
00:06:43
Speaker
It's like they can't believe how inexpensive even the one in the world rugs we carry are because they do not have the cachet.
00:06:53
Speaker
And that comes from the fact that they come from a part of the world that does not, well, they don't understand the weavers and even the original markers.
00:07:02
Speaker
They did not understand the Western world.
00:07:05
Speaker
And so rugs have been always incredibly undervalued.
00:07:10
Speaker
They're catching up a little bit now, but just a little bit as through the educational efforts of myself
00:07:19
Speaker
And our writings and many, many people visit our website every day, every week, and they go directly to the we have an extensive education section, which you can spend hours on in the educational section reading articles that I've written and that my wife, Christine, has collaborated with me on.
00:07:40
Speaker
And then also a number of videos which people find invaluable.
00:07:46
Speaker
They learn a lot and then their eyes open to the art form.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:54
Speaker
Through the videos and articles that are there.
00:08:00
Speaker
Is it true or is it a myth that the colors in antique rugs can have symbolic meaning?
00:08:06
Speaker
I would say that it's very true that an extremely well dyed rug where the colors are nuanced, they're not consistent, they have great depth.
00:08:20
Speaker
that those rugs basically have greater impact, i.e., that translates into greater value as well.
00:08:29
Speaker
But not so much that, you know, red signifies anger, just to take an arbitrary example or something like that.
00:08:36
Speaker
No, no.
00:08:38
Speaker
I mean, I would say rather than symbolizes, they evoke.
00:08:44
Speaker
Like the green is a very rare color to yield with natural dyes.
00:08:48
Speaker
You have to dye indigo blue, which was a pretty expensive dye in itself, and then dye yellow, which usually came from saffron, which was very hard to yield enough saffron to really get extensive dye stuff.
00:09:01
Speaker
So if you ever were painted and mixed blue and yellow paint, you get green.
00:09:07
Speaker
Sure.
00:09:07
Speaker
You mix them.
00:09:08
Speaker
And so green is both rare in the road.
00:09:12
Speaker
and then it evokes, I mean, what does evoke, green evoke to almost anyone?
00:09:19
Speaker
The abundance of nature.
00:09:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:23
Speaker
Is it true or is it a myth that rugs can have signatures of their makers hidden in the weaving?
Signatures and Poetry in Rugs
00:09:29
Speaker
Well, there are certain rugs which are signed.
00:09:32
Speaker
And it's every now and then, once in a blue moon, it's a signature of the weaver.
00:09:38
Speaker
That came up more into 20th century when they were weaving them with the eye towards the Western market.
00:09:43
Speaker
And there were certain weavers who were gaining cachet with the market.
00:09:48
Speaker
But most of them, the signature at the top is the person who commissioned them.
00:09:53
Speaker
Right.
00:09:53
Speaker
And but some of the rugs that I really love will have calligraphy in the borders, throughout the borders.
00:10:01
Speaker
And that's usually Sufic poetry, which is in itself is very moving.
00:10:09
Speaker
The poem that like there's one rug that we encountered.
00:10:14
Speaker
What did it say?
00:10:16
Speaker
Boy, it's basically said he who created everything.
00:10:23
Speaker
And what a wonderful way to point towards God.
00:10:26
Speaker
Wow.
00:10:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:27
Speaker
He who created everything.
00:10:30
Speaker
And which came from an early poem.
00:10:34
Speaker
And that's repeated throughout the board.
00:10:37
Speaker
But the calligraphy is also very, the design of the calligraphy is very beautiful in itself.
00:10:42
Speaker
I would think that would take an extraordinary amount of planning to work calligraphy into the board.
00:10:47
Speaker
It was.
00:10:48
Speaker
It did take extra planning as well.
00:10:54
Speaker
We'll be right back with Jan David Winitz of the Claremont Rug Company.
00:10:58
Speaker
First, as I often do, I just want to say thanks for listening.
Listener Engagement and Feedback
00:11:01
Speaker
Your messages and your comments, which you send me at CuriousObjectsPodcast at gmail.com, or on Instagram at Objective Interest, they're always heartwarming, and it's especially meaningful while I'm working through this vocal issue.
00:11:17
Speaker
I love the reviews you leave for curious objects on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, like this one recently from S.E.
00:11:24
Speaker
Frost, who says, I tell all of my curatorial co-workers and fellow decorative arts enthusiasts about this podcast and would recommend it to anyone that is interested in material culture.
00:11:36
Speaker
Thank you so, so much for those kind words and for telling all of your friends and your colleagues about the show.
00:11:43
Speaker
That is such an important part of bringing these stories to more people, which then gives us the ability to do more storytelling, which I think we should get back to right away.
Exploring Persian Suruk Rugs
00:11:54
Speaker
So let's hear from Jan about these four rugs, starting with what they have in common.
00:12:02
Speaker
Music
00:12:04
Speaker
So Jan, you've selected four rugs from your inventory for us to talk about, but tell me what do these have in common?
00:12:12
Speaker
What they have in common is that they're all from the same weaving style.
00:12:18
Speaker
They're all Persian suruks, which is a northeast Persian town style.
00:12:24
Speaker
But they were made in different periods and they're different qualitative levels.
00:12:30
Speaker
One of the things that we created over time is a way to educate our clients about the different magnitudes of artistry and quality and workmanship in rugs is we created what we call the Oriental Rug Market Pyramid, which is very easy to find on our very voluptuous website.
00:12:48
Speaker
And it starts, there are six levels.
00:12:51
Speaker
It starts at the highest level, the pinnacle.
00:12:54
Speaker
of the pyramid is museum level, which to be frank with you, I rarely carry every now and then we have a museum over which we sell to one of our very, very long term clients.
00:13:08
Speaker
But the highest level that we carry and are extraordinarily hard to find in today's market or what we call high collectible and then level three connoisseur caliber.
00:13:20
Speaker
Level four, high decorative, and these are all antique rugs so far.
00:13:25
Speaker
The high decorative is typically the lowest level that we carry, and it's well above what's available on the market.
00:13:31
Speaker
And then decorative, which are usually early 20th century rugs, which are based on historical rugs, but they were simplified because of market concerns, mostly time management.
00:13:45
Speaker
It was not very profitable to try to create more items which took a year, year and a half to make.
00:13:53
Speaker
So they simplified the weaving process for more mass production.
00:14:01
Speaker
And then level six is reproduction, which is almost everything that's on the market today are reproductions, hand-woven yet, yes, of traditional Persian or Caucasian or Turkish designs.
00:14:15
Speaker
And all this is...
00:14:19
Speaker
exemplified and shown very, very clearly on our market pyramid.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:25
Speaker
So the rugs that you've laid out here represent several different levels of this pyramid.
00:14:30
Speaker
And the fourth is actually of a quality level that you just mentioned you don't typically deal in, which is to say the decorative rugs.
00:14:38
Speaker
Which were Persian rugs made in the 20th century.
00:14:41
Speaker
They're based on historical designs.
00:14:44
Speaker
But around, at the very end of the 19th century, in the beginning of the 20th century, traders entered into all these remote villages and
00:14:56
Speaker
And they started first buying rugs up from them to sell to the Western market because by the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century, Persian rugs were very popular in the Western world.
00:15:10
Speaker
But then around the turn of the 20th century, they started to dictate designs.
00:15:17
Speaker
It's like, you know, our clients like this type of design.
00:15:20
Speaker
So the traders started to have them change the designs and then
00:15:26
Speaker
they started to simplify them.
00:15:30
Speaker
Less knots and less artistry, i.e.
00:15:34
Speaker
where basically in an early run the weavers would just sit down and
00:15:38
Speaker
Again, like a musician who is jamming or creating a composition, they just started to weave together.
00:15:45
Speaker
And those were the ones that really like a great folk band or a great orchestra that they created something through that collaboration that was very magical.
00:15:55
Speaker
But then later on, time saving measures entered in and they were given designs, maybe even knot by knot plans to follow.
00:16:07
Speaker
And so the weavers were no longer part of the process.
00:16:10
Speaker
They were just a technician.
00:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, they were just a workman who was weaving that which was dictated and usually simplified to make it easier to weave.
00:16:21
Speaker
And this is the vast majority of 20th century robes.
00:16:24
Speaker
Right.
00:16:25
Speaker
And then they start to use chemical dyes in the 1920s, which replaced the nuanced evocative natural dyes.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah, so you describe the period that you primarily specialize in as the second golden age of Persian rug driving.
00:16:43
Speaker
So tell me about that.
00:16:44
Speaker
What period is that, and what makes it the second golden age?
00:16:48
Speaker
Well, the first golden age was the 16th through 18th century, where there was great workshops throughout Persia.
00:16:59
Speaker
usually connected with the Safavid dynasty, which was the Persian dynasty, which was the rulers at that time.
00:17:06
Speaker
And they made incredible rogues.
00:17:10
Speaker
And then in the 19th century, there was a rejuvenation, which I don't know if I've ever heard a rationale of why that happened.
00:17:22
Speaker
But there were certain weavers, like in Tabriz, there was a weaver by the name of Hachjelili, who basically, they renewed the weaving process.
00:17:35
Speaker
And they started to build workshops where they were weaving great designs.
00:17:42
Speaker
And so we call that the second golden age because there was a renewed interest in weaving.
00:17:49
Speaker
And early on, I think when the traders first started coming in and they were just accepting what was being presented to them, there was an interest in weaving great rugs throughout the 19th century.
00:18:04
Speaker
until basically the market took over and said, no, no, no, you don't have to put so much time and effort and heart into it.
00:18:11
Speaker
We don't need that to sell it.
00:18:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:16
Speaker
So bringing it back to the rugs that you've set out for us here today, the different levels of quality and rarity that you're describing, those may appeal to different collectors for different reasons, and obviously their price considerations.
Collector Motivation and Learning
00:18:32
Speaker
So I wonder if we can step back for a second and just set the stage for this and talk to me for a moment about the psychology, because what
00:18:41
Speaker
What would you say drives collectors to pursue certain types of rugs or certain levels of rugs?
00:18:48
Speaker
How does that work?
00:18:49
Speaker
People, I imagine, move through the ranks sometimes.
00:18:53
Speaker
It's maybe sometimes about financial limitations, but sometimes there are other considerations.
00:18:59
Speaker
What is it that draws people to, for example, one of these three rugs as opposed to another?
00:19:05
Speaker
Well, you know, the higher levels that we talk about,
00:19:10
Speaker
what we're talking about is greater artistic uh proclivity and um more evocative designs so the higher levels is a level of artistry and as people's eyes open up to rugs they start to see into them it's like
00:19:34
Speaker
The way I see it is when people first look at rugs, it's like they're in a dimly lit room.
00:19:39
Speaker
They can barely see.
00:19:41
Speaker
But then as through our guidance, they start to learn about the different attributes that make a great rug.
00:19:47
Speaker
And we start to point them out.
00:19:49
Speaker
I'm pointing out details that they cannot see.
00:19:54
Speaker
often they can't see and then like when we were looking at that rug on the wall earlier I was showing you about all the nuances of color you know how like a dark navy blue is not one consistent color but it's made up of many many different sub-tones of blue and that's what gave the rug the sense of depth and that it was an alive pulsating creation not not just something static yeah so what we do is we point out
00:20:25
Speaker
different aspects of the rug uh the rug operates on a macrocosmic lateral level which is the whole design together it also operates in a more microscopic level which is how all the secondary and cursory designs work together and in a great rug everything works together like in a great like in a great community where everyone has their own role but it's all harmonious together
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:53
Speaker
And that's the that's that's so and it takes a while to learn how to look even among art collectors.
00:20:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:00
Speaker
And that learning how to look is very exciting for people.
00:21:03
Speaker
There's a great quote from a client of the long term collector, and he was talking about one of the roads he owns.
00:21:10
Speaker
And he said, you often talk about how rugs talk about nature and the different aspects of nature.
00:21:15
Speaker
But he said, this one rug that I own, as I've been studying it over and over again for many years, because the beauty of great rugs is they don't have a point of diminishment where you say, oh, I've seen enough.
00:21:29
Speaker
I've seen it all now.
00:21:30
Speaker
They continue growing on you.
00:21:33
Speaker
But he had this one Caucasian rug he's owned for many years.
00:21:38
Speaker
And he said, I figured it out what they're portraying.
00:21:41
Speaker
It's a teacher and his students.
00:21:45
Speaker
There was no human figures in this rug.
00:21:48
Speaker
But there was large figures surrounded by smaller figures.
00:21:52
Speaker
And he was certain, having studied this rug for a number of years and having quite an educated eye,
00:21:58
Speaker
that basically there was an authoritative figure who was teaching life lessons to secondary figures or to the students.
00:22:08
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:22:09
Speaker
That's the thing about great rugs is you get into them and study them over and over and over.
00:22:16
Speaker
They grow on you because they're part of the organic principle of nature.
00:22:22
Speaker
Like, do you ever get tired of walking through a forest?
00:22:25
Speaker
You don't?
00:22:25
Speaker
No.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:27
Speaker
It's the same forest.
00:22:28
Speaker
There's principles of nature that it adheres to.
00:22:34
Speaker
Because the people who made the rugs were a product of nature,
00:22:38
Speaker
And they basically were dependent on nature for their survival.
00:22:45
Speaker
That force of nature, that rhythm of nature, they had it inherently in their genes almost.
00:22:54
Speaker
There's a wonderful poem about this very concept by a poet called Wendell Berry.
00:23:00
Speaker
And it describes exactly what you have just talked about in terms of walking through the woods.
00:23:06
Speaker
That he says, in a country, you know, by heart, it is impossible to go the same way twice.
00:23:14
Speaker
And, yeah, the idea that every time you go through it, it's something completely new.
00:23:22
Speaker
That's exactly what it is.
00:23:24
Speaker
It's like, what is it in life that other than a great relationship with another human being that you, that basically continues nurturing and continues growing on you?
00:23:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:37
Speaker
Rugs have that for person after person after person, where they would never part with their collection.
00:23:42
Speaker
Right.
00:23:46
Speaker
I hear this story, oh, I have paintings partially for investment.
00:23:51
Speaker
I own my rugs for myself.
00:23:54
Speaker
And what are they saying?
00:23:56
Speaker
They're saying they have a personal relationship with that, like their children.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:01
Speaker
Yeah, so to come back to our three rugs, because after our conversations, I'm now a rug expert.
00:24:08
Speaker
But let's pretend that I'm just an amateur.
00:24:12
Speaker
And you are going to walk me through these three rugs.
00:24:14
Speaker
And you're going to point out to me why these three rugs belong to different categories.
00:24:19
Speaker
What am I looking for?
00:24:21
Speaker
Okay, well the rug we're looking at now is a Persian Farahan rug.
00:24:26
Speaker
It's around four and a half by six and a half.
00:24:29
Speaker
And it was woven in the second quarter of the 19th century, in the 1830s or 1840s.
00:24:35
Speaker
And this is a high collectible piece.
00:24:37
Speaker
What makes it so is that, for instance, there's a lot of red in this rug, but
High Collectible vs Market Rugs
00:24:46
Speaker
there's many, many, many, many tones of red.
00:24:51
Speaker
like more than I can count.
00:24:53
Speaker
Everything from a soft, soft salmon to like a deep rust to a deeper rose.
00:25:02
Speaker
And then there's not only green throughout the rug, which is a rare dye, it was very difficult to dye greens.
00:25:10
Speaker
One needed to dye indigo blue with natural dyes and over dye with a yellow dye, usually saffron.
00:25:17
Speaker
And it took a lot of expertise to do that.
00:25:20
Speaker
But not only does this rug have a profusion of green, but many, many different tones of green.
00:25:26
Speaker
And the colors are used to create a very evocative design, like they're striated.
00:25:38
Speaker
It almost looks in this particular rug like there's a beam of sunlight.
00:25:43
Speaker
that's shining across the center of the rug, which maybe is exactly what the weaver was trying to show.
00:25:51
Speaker
And so the naturally dyed colors are very important, but it's also the way they're combined.
00:25:58
Speaker
They're combined in a very harmonious way, which touches the feelings and is very inspiring.
00:26:06
Speaker
And there's a striation of color where there's certain lines of color, like throughout the center part of the center of the rug, there's a deeper red, which is counterbalanced by lines of a softer red.
00:26:19
Speaker
This is what is known, and this is intentional.
00:26:22
Speaker
And this was a technique known as a brash, A-B-R-A-S-H, which was the intentional color striation, which gives the rug depth, a sense of depth in life.
00:26:34
Speaker
This brash is very important in a high collectible rug if it's done in an artful way.
00:26:40
Speaker
And then the other thing that I would say about the rug is there's macrocosmic designs, like there's a very large medallion in the center.
00:26:50
Speaker
which is very harmoniously drawn, and then there's microcosmic design.
00:26:54
Speaker
There's tiny, tiny little flowers, like these little blossoms in the corners that at first one wouldn't even see, or in the border, even smaller, more petite flowers.
00:27:07
Speaker
But at the same time, all these different levels are working together and are harmonious.
00:27:15
Speaker
balanced matter it's not at all unusual that sometimes my clients call me on the phone and they say i'm so excited i'm so excited and i say bob what are you so excited about he said you know i've had this rug on the wall for two years i never saw the little camel in the corner oh wow and it's so cool and it's not only that they put that little camel in but it works with everything else in such a way that it was so balanced i never saw it
00:27:45
Speaker
And so this is when I say a rug grows on one over time, this is what I'm talking about.
00:27:50
Speaker
I have rugs that inherited from my family and I've been living with them for, or I've seen them for almost 70 years.
00:27:56
Speaker
And I still am seeing new things in them.
00:28:00
Speaker
So this is an art form which only grows, the great pieces, particularly the high collectible ones, they only grow on one.
00:28:07
Speaker
I really like that idea because it invites you to spend more time with your collection, with your objects.
00:28:13
Speaker
And I think that the meditative quality of that time is so critical to the whole idea of collecting.
00:28:19
Speaker
We had one dear client who recently passed away who, along with putting rugs on the floors and his walls, he had peak ceilings.
00:28:28
Speaker
And he had two rugs, great rugs, like eight by 11 rugs on the peak ceiling.
00:28:33
Speaker
Really?
00:28:34
Speaker
And there was one wonderful thing that when I visited his home in Southern California once, he said, he laid down on his sofa in the middle of his living room and looked at the ceiling and said, look at that rug up there, that he had on the ceiling.
00:28:50
Speaker
And he said, you know, one of the things I love about my rugs
00:28:53
Speaker
is I do business all day and it's so chaotic.
00:28:56
Speaker
And it seems like everything is topsy-turvy.
00:29:01
Speaker
But when I come home and lay down on my sofa and look at that rug,
00:29:06
Speaker
and see what's in that rug and how balanced it is, he says, life makes sense again.
00:29:12
Speaker
And I mean, this is a CEO of a large company.
00:29:17
Speaker
And that level of intimacy and what he expressed just showed me that the emotional aspect of the human being can be nurtured and can live.
00:29:28
Speaker
And that's one of the things that great rugs present.
00:29:32
Speaker
They allow us to do is to look at things more deeply.
00:29:36
Speaker
So let's move down the ladder here for a minute.
00:29:38
Speaker
What comes next?
00:29:39
Speaker
The next one is also Farahun rug.
00:29:42
Speaker
This one is probably woven about 1875.
00:29:46
Speaker
And this we call connoisseur caliber.
00:29:49
Speaker
And it has many of the same attributes as the high collectible.
00:29:54
Speaker
It is not quite as inventive.
00:29:57
Speaker
It's a little bit more rhythmical.
00:30:00
Speaker
It doesn't have quite the range of color.
00:30:02
Speaker
Also, at the same time, it still has the wonderful range of color.
00:30:05
Speaker
I discussed the rarity and beauty of the greens.
00:30:09
Speaker
It still has green dyes in it.
00:30:12
Speaker
And I think what it is is the emotional aspect that it touches you is not quite as profound in part because the border is more rhythmical and repetitive than in the previous rug.
00:30:30
Speaker
And it's like if we could put our emotional...
00:30:37
Speaker
response on a scale.
00:30:40
Speaker
And somehow we can measure it, like you could measure blood pressure.
00:30:45
Speaker
The one that we just looked at, it's a 10 out of 10.
00:30:48
Speaker
Anybody who knows right, says, and I've seen that once again, that which is so nurturing when
00:31:00
Speaker
That's what great rugs, the high collectible rug does.
00:31:04
Speaker
This particular piece, the Conestor Calibre, it has many of the same attributes, wonderfully detailed designs, but to a lesser magnitude.
00:31:19
Speaker
Very hard to describe, but I think, Ben, even you, being rather new to the rugs, you can see the difference between you two.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, what especially resonates for me is what you said about the
00:31:29
Speaker
repetition of pattern, which is very clear on this example.
00:31:34
Speaker
And it's not unpleasant by any means.
00:31:38
Speaker
But when you contrast it to the first rug that we looked at, where you can see the border is just so imaginative and organic throughout, it gives a much more sophisticated impression.
00:31:52
Speaker
And it's more free form.
00:31:56
Speaker
And then when we go down to this next rug, which was woven around 1900 in the same district, the same Farahan district, which is high decorative.
00:32:08
Speaker
This has a lot, much more market influence in it.
00:32:11
Speaker
It still has a level of beauty, some level of artistry.
00:32:14
Speaker
It's more predictable.
00:32:16
Speaker
What you see on one side is very similar or the same as what you see on the other side.
00:32:21
Speaker
What you see at the bottom of the field, again, is very evocative of what you see at the top of the field.
00:32:28
Speaker
The border doesn't at all the sense of...
00:32:37
Speaker
ingenuity that the high collectible rug is.
00:32:41
Speaker
But it's very pleasing.
00:32:43
Speaker
It is.
00:32:43
Speaker
It's lovely.
00:32:44
Speaker
And the color is much deeper and more saturated on this.
00:32:47
Speaker
Is that an indication of anything?
00:32:50
Speaker
The delicate nuance colors were much more difficult to dye.
00:32:54
Speaker
Like in that high collectible second quarter of the 19th century example we looked at originally.
00:33:00
Speaker
Many of those very soft, pale reds, they were created when the dye bath was almost totally depleted.
00:33:09
Speaker
very light tones.
00:33:11
Speaker
The deeper tones that we see in this high decorative rug were much easier to create with natural dyes.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:18
Speaker
So basically very pleasing to the eye, very beautiful, but it doesn't have the depth.
00:33:25
Speaker
It doesn't create that awe, like the high collectible rug immediately has for the educated eye.
00:33:34
Speaker
And at the same time, even these high decorative late 19th century and turn of the 20th century rugs have become very rare in the market.
00:33:43
Speaker
And one has to be exposed to the different level of qualities, similar to what we're doing here.
00:33:50
Speaker
And the person who, even who's presenting the rug, has to have an eye to be able to see these so they can present that.
00:33:57
Speaker
And then the last rug... Right now our ugly stepchild....still has some nuance of design, but still has lovely colors, but it doesn't have that evocative quality that touches the heart.
00:34:11
Speaker
And it's very pleasing.
00:34:14
Speaker
This we do not carry as a business, this level.
00:34:17
Speaker
Our business starts at the high decorative and goes through the high collectible.
00:34:21
Speaker
So these rugs that we carry are extraordinarily hard to find.
00:34:26
Speaker
Like people say, you have a very large inventory.
00:34:28
Speaker
That's true.
00:34:29
Speaker
But that's not the point.
00:34:31
Speaker
The point is that we only carry great rocks.
00:34:35
Speaker
And that's why we created the pyramid to help people to see that.
00:34:38
Speaker
The high collectible piece is worth about $50,000 or $60,000.
00:34:45
Speaker
as a market value, totally one of a kind.
00:34:47
Speaker
And we would, when we put this on the market, it would probably go to a long-term collector.
00:34:54
Speaker
The connoisseur caliber piece in this size, we'd probably sell in the $20,000 to $25,000 range.
00:35:01
Speaker
So there's a big discrepancy between the high collectible and the connoisseur caliber.
00:35:05
Speaker
And this would be both for collectors to either have and put on the wall.
00:35:11
Speaker
And many collectors do put rugs on the wall
00:35:15
Speaker
or for a family for home decoration.
00:35:20
Speaker
And then the high decorative rug would be for a newer client who's learning about rugs or a younger family.
00:35:28
Speaker
And one of the things that the younger rug has, it has greater durability.
00:35:34
Speaker
So it could go in the part of a house which has a greater amount of traffic, which is one of the things we do as a business is we...
00:35:43
Speaker
studies people's homes as best we can or lifestyles and we we suggest rugs that are not only the level of beauty that that that the person wants but the kind of the level of quality and durability which is appropriate for different parts of the house yeah and then the decorative level well we don't really carry at all right they're more available in the market and that's not what we are about
00:36:07
Speaker
Now that you've talked us through the sort of relative interest and qualities of these three rugs, I'm curious about the mechanics of the business
Acquisition and Rarity Advice
00:36:17
Speaker
a little bit.
00:36:17
Speaker
How did you acquire these?
00:36:19
Speaker
Where did you come across them?
00:36:20
Speaker
We acquired them almost exclusively from private collections, long-held private collections, because the market has been diminishing for a couple of generations.
00:36:36
Speaker
Up until the 1950s, 60s, 70s, there was a great number of rugs in the market.
00:36:41
Speaker
And even by the 1980s, the number of great rugs was starting to diminish as there was more Western collectors being created.
00:36:50
Speaker
And one thing about these is great antique rugs are not being created anymore.
00:36:57
Speaker
The technology is totally lost.
00:37:00
Speaker
Even the dye stuffs in our natural dye, in our restoration department, we have rediscovered over a 45 year period, the dye recipes for almost all of the dye stuffs
00:37:16
Speaker
And then the wool that we use is from Caragall's sheep.
00:37:20
Speaker
We have a partnership in a herd of Caragall's sheep in the Northeast, which is the same, what they call sheep with mountain oily wool, very high lanolin rich wool that was the same or similar wool that the nomads used 150 years ago.
00:37:40
Speaker
Even the restoration process, there's a lot of science.
00:37:42
Speaker
And many of the very old rugs will have a little restoration.
00:37:46
Speaker
There was a little hole.
00:37:48
Speaker
And if a restoration is not done well and it's bothersome, it becomes like a pimple, which it shows.
00:37:56
Speaker
And so the great rugs have come, they're only available at this point in Long Hill Family Collections.
00:38:07
Speaker
And because of my family background and because we are not seen so much as a rug dealer, but as a connoisseur who happens to sell rugs or happens to have a company.
00:38:22
Speaker
And I understand the importance of having long term relationships.
00:38:28
Speaker
When many of these collections come available, we buy the whole collection.
00:38:34
Speaker
And so it's almost that when we buy a collection, it's almost like we're stepping back three generations or four generations to that family to the 1920s when these great rugs were more prolific and we're buying the entire collection.
00:38:48
Speaker
So they're rarer today, it sounds like, not because they're being lost or destroyed, but because so many of them are now held in collections.
00:38:57
Speaker
So presumably they will come back on the market sooner or later, but there just may be more demand.
00:39:04
Speaker
Unless the families just want to hold them, which is not at all unusual.
00:39:08
Speaker
That in part, because it's part of the family, they've lived with the ruggles, they have an emotional relationship to them.
00:39:18
Speaker
And for families of great wealth, this is very interesting.
00:39:22
Speaker
Great rugs are still very much undervalued because of their lack of appropriate marketing.
00:39:30
Speaker
Where our marketing approach is entirely educational.
00:39:35
Speaker
We teach people how to see rugs and then they discriminate themselves about what they want to buy.
00:39:42
Speaker
And then we have a long-term exchange policy.
00:39:45
Speaker
So if somebody buys a high decorative rug because they're raising a family, or they just think that's enough money to spend on an oriental rug, and over time their eyes open up more, which happens, and they see the beauty of the greater rugs, they can trade up.
00:40:00
Speaker
Right.
00:40:02
Speaker
And this is something that...
00:40:06
Speaker
that has been really has been wonderful for the clients and has worked very well for us because as the clients become more educated, they have a yearning to buy the greater pieces.
00:40:19
Speaker
But these are not on the market at all.
00:40:26
Speaker
And maybe every once on the blue moon do you see a rug of this caliber.
00:40:30
Speaker
particularly in the condition that we have, because they were pretty much held in suspended animation in the family collections.
00:40:37
Speaker
And then because of our advanced restoration techniques that we've created over time, if a rug has a hole in it or it has some unraveling around the corner, we know how to restore it in such a way that it's entirely secure and the restoration does not interfere with the artistic beauty of the rug.
Advice for New Collectors
00:41:00
Speaker
So for listeners who have been hearing you and thinking this is an interesting area and maybe they'd like to acquire a rug, but they're not quite sure where to start or what they should be looking for or what their taste might be, what would you say to them?
00:41:16
Speaker
What advice would you give?
00:41:21
Speaker
I would say to go on our website where we're showing over a thousand pieces, one-of-a-kind pieces,
00:41:29
Speaker
out of an inventory that's about three times that large and create a wish list online and anything that you like that just touches you put that rug on the wish list and start studying them and even the pictures of the rugs they will speak to you over time
00:41:48
Speaker
And if you contact us and we give you a little tutorial, which, you know, it's not unusual that when someone originally contacts us, the original phone call with the quote salesperson, or really who's more of a consultant, maybe 45 minutes long, and they will teach you how to look at the rug and then buy from your heart.
00:42:10
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:42:11
Speaker
buy what touches you.
00:42:13
Speaker
And if over time your eyes open up more and you become more sensitive, if you shop with us, you can trade them in for greater pieces.
00:42:23
Speaker
Well, Jan, thank you for sharing your rugs with us.
00:42:25
Speaker
It's been a pleasure.
00:42:27
Speaker
The pleasure's all mine, Ben.
00:42:28
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:42:33
Speaker
Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support from Sarah Bellotta.
00:42:37
Speaker
Sierra Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
00:42:41
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
00:42:43
Speaker
And I'm Ben Miller.