Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
Speaker: I'm Ben Miller.
Speaker: This is the podcast about art, decorative arts and antiques, the stories behind them, and what they can reveal to us about ourselves and the people who came before us.
Speaker: It's an exciting moment for Antiques Magazine.
Speaker: They have a new editor.
Speaker: And if you're plugged into the world of design and interiors, he will be a very familiar name.
Speaker: Mitch Owens has taken the editorial helm, and his first issue as editor is coming up in September.
Speaker: Now, Mitch in a lot of ways is a very intuitive fit for the role.
Speaker: He has deep experience as a writer, as an editor, leadership roles at World of Interiors, Architectural Digest, El Decor, and of course he's published articles in every paper you can imagine.
Speaker: He's really a dyed in the wool decorative arts enthusiast.
Speaker: At the same time, he's not necessarily the kind of narrowly focused subject matter specialist that I think a lot of readers associate with the magazine.
Speaker: Mitch is more interested in how people live with objects, how we relate to them, the evolution of taste and style, and of course, close to my heart, the stories these pieces carry.
Speaker: So when he took the position, Mitch said that he wanted to approach the job with respect, but also with a desire to surprise.
Speaker: And for a 100 plus year old magazine, a little surprise honestly feels like a great idea.
Speaker: But what does that mean?
Speaker: How will the magazine fit into the future of the antiques world or even help to define that future?
Speaker: Well, I would like to find out.
Speaker: So I've invited Mitch to join us today.
Speaker: Welcome to Curious Objects.
Speaker: Thank you very much.
Speaker: It's lovely to be here.
Speaker: Now you had your own podcast in the not so distant past.
Speaker: How does it feel to be on the guest side?
Speaker: It's not a terrible thing.
Speaker: I really enjoyed very much the podcast that I had at Architectural Digest.
Speaker: And it wasn't so much me in the, I never felt like I was in the driver's seat.
Speaker: of the podcast.
Speaker: I just simply felt that I was at the table with friends and we were all talking about something that interested us each and every one.
Speaker: I always felt that I was part of the conversation anyway, as opposed to the person doing the interview.
Speaker: I never thought of it as really interviews.
Speaker: Fantastic.
Speaker: Well, I want to have exactly that kind of conversation with you today.
Speaker: And I've come prepared with my rum cocktail and you've come prepared with your summer glass of rosé.
Speaker: So I think we're in for a good time.
Speaker: And of course, that has to start, as always, with a series of rapid fire questions.
Speaker: Are you ready?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm as ready as I will ever be, Ben.
Speaker: Okay, we'll find out.
Speaker: Mitch, what was the first object or work of art that you fell in love with?
Speaker: John Singer Sargent's portrait of Mr. and Mrs. Isaac Phelps Stokes that's in the American wing at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Speaker: Okay, you're being cast away on a desert island, but instead of albums, you're being allowed to bring one antique or work of art to keep you company.
Speaker: What's it going to be?
Speaker: I believe it would be an 18th century French chair.
Speaker: largely late 18th century because as the decorator Thomas Jane and I firmly believe, there's nothing more comfortable than an 18th century French chair.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: And Thomas Jane, of course, is a friend of the podcast.
Speaker: I also like the practical thinking about how if you're stranded on a desert island, what's one thing you're not going to have a comfortable place to sit?
Speaker: Here's not to sleep.
Speaker: So in some dismal hypothetical future, the death of print has truly transpired and you can no longer work as a writer or as an editor.
Speaker: What will you do instead?
Speaker: I will run an inn in Alsace-Lorraine full of antiques, all of which are for sale.
Speaker: I will make breakfast and lunch and you're on your own for dinner.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: I'm coming to visit tomorrow.
Speaker: What movie do you think has the most interesting depiction of material culture?
Speaker: I would say almost any film by Merchant Ivory.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: largely because the sets, for me at least, the sets are the main characters.
Speaker: I'm fascinated by how richly appointed they are and how appropriately appointed and how they reflect the personality and life and intellectualism of the person who's living in that space.
Speaker: Fabulous.
Speaker: What's your favorite museum to visit?
Speaker: the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam.
Speaker: Wow, you're quick on the draw with that one.
Speaker: What's so great about the Rijksmuseum?
Speaker: I love it because, A, it's the most bizarre and wonderful looking building.
Speaker: big sort of medieval revival thing.
Speaker: I also love the fact that it's full of artists not many of us know, aside from Rembrandt, Nightwatch, all of that sort of thing.
Speaker: What interests me a great deal are the religious paintings, particularly the Flemish paintings.
Speaker: There's a heavenly painting that I'm always telling people to go and see.
Speaker: And of course, I don't remember the name of the artist.
Speaker: But it says a lot about Flemish culture to me.
Speaker: It's circa 1550, I think, painting of the Virgin and Child and the visitation of the Magi.
Speaker: One of my favorite subjects.
Speaker: Well, and you can look and you can admire and the, you know, the Virgin is holding the baby and the
Speaker: The traveling kings are there.
Speaker: They're in obeisance, they're presenting gifts.
Speaker: And right behind the seated Virgin is a wicker basket full of neatly folded white diapers.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: It's one of my favorite details of any painting I've ever seen.
Speaker: So intimate.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What was your last international trip?
Speaker: I went to Tafaf in Maastricht.
Speaker: Did you see the Rijksmuseum while you were there?
Speaker: No, I did not.
Speaker: I had a very truncated schedule, so I wasn't able to go.
Speaker: But I was going to say one of the other things that I like so much about the Rijksmuseum and I think is illustrative of the way I think about antiques and periods is they're the museum's period rooms.
Speaker: are the Flemish or Dutch or of that moment interpretation of what was fashionable in Paris at that time.
Speaker: So it's not really a French room.
Speaker: It's a French room seen through the eyes of Dutch craftsmen.
Speaker: And that's something that interests me, that stepping away from the center of fashion to create a chair, a table, an interior that
Speaker: draws on that fashion, but doesn't replicate it.
Speaker: I find it much more interesting than the pure thing.
Speaker: You're all about reference, which I love.
Speaker: And we're going to talk about that shortly.
Speaker: But just to round out our rapid fire questions, tell me what was the last object or work of art you saw that gave you shivers?
Speaker: Oh, hold on.
Speaker: What was it?
Speaker: Oh, it's ridiculous.
Speaker: But my husband brought home a 19th century sterling silver asparagus set.
Speaker: And I had never seen one in person.
Speaker: And I find them rather pretentious and rather wonderful at the same time.
Speaker: Okay, well, you know which side my bread is buttered on.
Speaker: I appreciate the sterling silver reference.
Speaker: We'll be right back with Mitch Owens.
Speaker: As usual, in case our vivid descriptions aren't enough for you, you can see pictures of today's Curious Object at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast.
Speaker: If you have questions or comments for me, you can reach me at curiousobjectspodcast at gmail.com or on Instagram at Objective Interest.
Speaker: If you're listening right now using a podcast app like Apple Podcasts or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can see new episodes as they come out.
Speaker: Both of those apps also let you give us a rating and a review, which is hugely helpful for bringing new listeners to Curious Objects.
Speaker: Someone recently left a review on Apple saying, quote, "...it shakes off the rarefied airs of old and makes everyone feel welcome."
Speaker: That is awesome to hear.
Speaker: And it's something Mitch and I are going to talk about in just a few minutes.
Speaker: So please keep those ratings and reviews coming.
Speaker: I am so grateful for that.
Speaker: Now, Mitch, I want to start off with your curious object.
Speaker: So could you just tell us what that is and what it looks like?
Speaker: Two years ago, I was given a lovely gift by...
Speaker: A decorator in New York, Alex Papachristidis, who is a great lover of antiques, and I helped him write his book.
Speaker: And he sent a really beautiful late 19th century cobalt blue glass copy of the Barovier wedding cup, the Coppa.
Speaker: that's at the Museum of Glass in Venice, and it's right here.
Speaker: A footed cup that is enameled and gilded and is a replica or an adaptation of the wedding cup that dates from about 1470.
Speaker: That is one of the prizes of the Museum of Glass in Venice.
Speaker: And although it is
Speaker: Renaissance Revival, and it is about 1880s, it does tend to sit on a coffee table with Triscuits in it.
Speaker: That's terrific.
Speaker: So, okay, there's a lot I want to ask you about this cup and many other things.
Speaker: But can I just start off with why do you think Alex knew you would like it so much?
Speaker: Alex and I both love antiques enormously.
Speaker: We like odd things very, very much.
Speaker: We're great friends.
Speaker: He's enormously funny and we just get along very well.
Speaker: And I think that we have similar frames of reference, at least in terms of things that we like.
Speaker: And I think for Alex, the cup was odd.
Speaker: and it was interesting and it had multiple layers because although they're still made today by Baruffier copies of them this particular cup comes from a time period that he and I are both fascinated by and that's the late 19th century in Venice when American artists and writers are descending on the city so it serves as a
Speaker: reminder of a period of time that is a much later idea of a grand tour while also hearkening back to the 15th century.
Speaker: So I look at it and I think he feels the same way.
Speaker: Who bought it?
Speaker: Why did they buy it?
Speaker: Why did they buy a copy as opposed to buying, say, an authentic piece of 15th century Venetian glass?
Speaker: And how did it come down to me to be used for Triscuits and not have been broken in all this time?
Speaker: And I love that you do put it to use because after all, that's what it was made for, right?
Speaker: I don't find- Not for Triscuits perhaps.
Speaker: Not for Triscuits, no.
Speaker: But I think it's very important that antiques be used to their best possible advantage and with all safety in mind, depending on their delicacy.
Speaker: But I'm not someone who wants to put anything behind glazed doors.
Speaker: I want to handle it.
Speaker: I want to-
Speaker: use it um i have a very bad old paris porcelain problem which means that nothing can go in the dishwasher um but i use it all the time i mean 1830s 1840s old paris that's what my seven-year-old eats on um and i i just think if you're not going to use it
Speaker: If it's a practical object, if it was initially designed and created as a household object, it should still be used as a household object.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel if we keep going down that line, we're gonna be accused of preaching to the choir because I'm a choir and you're preaching, but I've been on both sides of that equation.
Speaker: But I do, I just, I love the connection that it forms between you and past generations of people who have used it.
Speaker: Because if you think about the role that this object has played,
Speaker: That's what makes it special, right?
Speaker: It's, of course, it's the beauty, the artistry, the craftsmanship, the design.
Speaker: But what elevates it above a mere work of art, if I can use that phrase, is the fact that it is intended to be an intimate part of a daily human experience, maybe even a ritual, maybe the daily consumption of Triscuits.
Speaker: And that, to me, is, it's a point of such powerful connection.
Speaker: between generations, between centuries.
Speaker: And it's something that almost nothing else can do.
Speaker: It's something that a historic document can't do for us.
Speaker: We can read someone's words and imagine them.
Speaker: And that's great that there's an important role for that kind of investigation and history and study.
Speaker: But how else do you feel that intense person-to-person relationship with somebody who died long before you were born?
Speaker: I think because I've ever since childhood, I was obsessed with history and I always wanted to know about people I thought were more interesting than myself or more interesting than people around me, except for one particular grandmother who was sort of a lodestar in my life.
Speaker: It's funny, I can be alone in a room
Speaker: and be constantly wondering who touched that chair in the past, who lifted that glass, who made that glass, why did they make it that way?
Speaker: It's a very, I would say, untutored to a degree, autodidactic, most definitely romantic, absolutely, examination of the past.
Speaker: How can you ever feel alone when you have,
Speaker: all of these extraordinary objects around you that have passed through other people's hands and that will eventually, if you're lucky, pass to other appreciative hands.
Speaker: And the other thing I love about this object in particular is the layers of reference, the sort of meta nature of it.
Speaker: Because as you've said, it's a reproduction of a medieval original or Renaissance, early Renaissance original, right?
Speaker: And so it's had these layers of life, the life of the original that it's based on, the life of the creation of this piece in the 19th century, the life that it lived as a, you know, perhaps a souvenir for a grand tourist or some other person who acquired it.
Speaker: Well, the other thing that's lovely about it is it was made for a couple.
Speaker: You see the groom on this side.
Speaker: The bride is on this side.
Speaker: There are
Speaker: horsemen carrying the beloveds to, I presume, their vows.
Speaker: And then you have maidens bathing in the fountain of love.
Speaker: So it's this incredibly beautiful and very lovely and very hopeful story about marriage and
Speaker: what it can be, what it should be, and certainly an idealized version, an idealized addressing of nuptial vows.
Speaker: But it's wonderfully hopeful.
Speaker: And I think that that...
Speaker: message carries through all of these centuries, it still presents itself, to me at least, as an object of wonder.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I'm going to attempt a seamless transition here into talking about the magazine, because I think when we're considering the role of these antiques, particularly objects like this, which have archaeological layers of significance, one after the other after the other,
Speaker: You know, we are part of that accretion of archaeological layers, right?
Speaker: You as the present owner of that object are forever part of its provenance.
Speaker: Whether that's recorded or not, you know, well, that will be up to you and your heirs or whoever ends up buying it out of your estate or whatever fate this object has.
Speaker: But we're participants in creating the next layer of the experience of these objects.
Speaker: And of course, that's what the magazine is fundamentally about, is adding layer upon layer upon layer to the experience and of course to the scholarship, to the understanding and appreciation and exploration of these objects.
Speaker: And so I...
Speaker: And in a way, I deeply envy you in the role that you've just taken on as editor of the magazine, because you're now in a very real way, a custodian of the creation of a very important part of the layer that we're all experiencing, the creation of these stories about these objects.
Speaker: And so I want to get into...
Speaker: you're thinking about the magazine.
Speaker: And I think, you know, for starters, we can, you and I skip straight past the, you know, young people don't care about antiques trip, because that is both untrue and wildly overplayed.
Speaker: Indeed it is.
Speaker: But it is true that the antiques field is facing challenges.
Speaker: And we shouldn't elide that.
Speaker: And so just right out of the gate, from the 30,000 foot view, what do you see as the biggest hurdles to the overall success of the industry over the next 20 years?
Speaker: I have always subscribed to the notion that the biggest challenge is to get people interested in
Speaker: antiques in a broad fashion, interested in antiques collecting very broadly, because I am not someone who looks at the world of antiques narrowly.
Speaker: I'm not interested in one period.
Speaker: I am interested
Speaker: promiscuously interested in every period except for mission furniture and so if the brick bats fly please let them um but you know Philip Haywatt Jabbour the great scholar late scholar who also um founded Masterpiece London at the Art and Antiques Fair he was a huge proponent of
Speaker: cross-collecting, as am I. And I think that that's going to be a salvation for collectors and the antiques.
Speaker: I mean, business, you see it constantly.
Speaker: You see it in the stands at antiques fairs where a
Speaker: famously focused dealer in 18th century english furniture is also combining it with 21st century paintings and mid-20th century pieces of glass to not only attract other eyes that wouldn't necessarily look at a chippendale chair as they're passing the booth but
Speaker: they show you how multiple periods, multiple styles, multiple genres can all live together as long as they accentuate one another, as long as they compliment one another.
Speaker: I mean, it's not a new idea.
Speaker: I mean, if we go back and we look at
Speaker: collectors back through time from, you know, Ponsa de Bumo in the 50s on back to, you know, Stanford White, who seemed to hoover up everything, no matter what the period was, to, you know, collectors in the earlier in the 19th century where
Speaker: You know, they would have an American colonial house, but would somehow manage to find room for an 18th century chair of royal provenance, French provenance in it.
Speaker: People love things.
Speaker: People are magpies.
Speaker: I think the best collectors are magpies.
Speaker: They fall in love with things for
Speaker: inexplicable reasons.
Speaker: And I think that we should in every possible way encourage that, encourage these little explosive affairs of the heart so that you're looking around a room of
Speaker: things, objects, treasures that say more about you than a more narrowly focused collection might.
Speaker: I love that you brought up Philip Huat-Jabur, who actually came on Curious Objects years ago and spoke, among other things, about eclectic collecting.
Speaker: But his curious object was, in fact, a revival itself, or it was rather, it was a porphyry neoclassical vase.
Speaker: Of course it was porphyry.
Speaker: Of course it was porphyry.
Speaker: That, of course, was his trademark.
Speaker: But he believes that it was repurposed, that it was an ancient Roman porphyry object that had then been re-carved in the neoclassical period and then used as a decorative or collectible object.
Speaker: but it makes it more of an interesting object.
Speaker: I mean, it's very much like the 18th century French, the Marchand Mercier, who would hire a bronzier to add mounts to a Ming Dynasty vase, not only as protection, but to enhance it so it becomes...
Speaker: simultaneously antique as well as simultaneously contemporary.
Speaker: It crosses multiple moments and has multiple layers.
Speaker: And as an object, it becomes more interesting to me that there is this marriage.
Speaker: One thing that used to surprise me and no longer surprises me, and this is to dive into the silver world for a moment, is
Speaker: If you think about antique silver tankards, these beer drinking vessels with handles and covers, they're often quite large.
Speaker: People are often shocked at how much beer people used to fill their drinking vessels with.
Speaker: But of course, during the teetotaling era of the late 19th and early 20th century, there was a negative reaction to these vessels amongst a large swath of the American public.
Speaker: And the feeling was these are vessels for alcohol.
Speaker: That's inherently a problem.
Speaker: And so many people took their antique 17th, 18th century silver tankards and
Speaker: and they cut out a wedge out of the side of them and added a spout to turn it into a coffee pot.
Speaker: And then as the antiques collecting market developed, and we move into the early to mid 20th century, and people start to think of these objects as collectibles and not just as functional pieces,
Speaker: These collectors started to realize that these tankards don't look right anymore.
Speaker: They were modified.
Speaker: They were changed from their original purpose to a different purpose.
Speaker: They had this awful sort of tumorous addition stuck onto their size.
Speaker: And so a lot of people went and took those spouts back off.
Speaker: and would have a new wedge of silver put in where the old wedge had been cut off.
Speaker: Now, for decades, this de-spouting, as it's called, has been thought of as one of the most egregious condition problems that antique tankard can possibly have.
Speaker: And it has a catastrophic effect on the market value of these objects.
Speaker: And when you talk to traditional collectors, that's their general view.
Speaker: I don't want a de-spouted tankard.
Speaker: That's a huge condition problem.
Speaker: But when I talk to particularly younger generations of collectors and I tell them this story and I show them, you know, an example of a de-spouted tankard,
Speaker: the reaction is almost the exact opposite.
Speaker: It's this feeling that this piece is much more complex and much more sophisticated as a result of having participated in these social movements, these social trends.
Speaker: I absolutely agree with that because to me...
Speaker: de-spouting a tankard.
Speaker: You suddenly have three movements, you know, the original, the censorious, and then the re-celebration of what it had been.
Speaker: But I don't think that's really any different than
Speaker: adding a wing to a house in a different style to make it work better.
Speaker: You know, I, I, I don't want to strip it back to, you know, something pure.
Speaker: I, I think that there is a great place for purity and I celebrate purity and I, I, I absolutely understand that mental process when it comes to collecting, but you know, you,
Speaker: I like the edges to be budged and blurred a bit because there's far too much in the world to appreciate.
Speaker: And if we start setting up boundaries as to what is...
Speaker: What one generation might find interesting because of the multiple layers and an earlier generation might find heinous because, um, it, it was, it, the spout was put there in the first place.
Speaker: Um, and then the spout removed.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I just think that you're, you're, you're spending too much time trying to overlook the story and the enjoyment.
Speaker: And if you desperately need a silver tankard that hasn't been spouted,
Speaker: than find one.
Speaker: Just because it's been spouted, it doesn't mean it's any less interesting.
Speaker: I think that we're finding that certainly with the over paintings of, say, Vermeer's, where that great Cupid, which does stand out as the most bizarre moment in any of his paintings, and it comes up over and over and over again.
Speaker: And suddenly what was this terribly contemplative painting of a young woman reading a letter suddenly has this other element of lust and amorousness and romance and...
Speaker: oddity and it makes you have it forces you to rethink what you thought about vermeer or any other painter what was removed why was it removed who removed it should we put it back should we uncover it i to me that's one of the most exciting
Speaker: conversations to have.
Speaker: Well, and shouldn't it be fun after all, what we're doing?
Speaker: I mean, if it's not fun, we're sort of wasting our time, right?
Speaker: It is fun.
Speaker: And I think that that's the one thing that I knew that when I understood, I'd always loved antiques from childhood.
Speaker: I did not grow up with any
Speaker: antiques that were even the slightest bit special, trust me.
Speaker: It was a lot of golden oak made from Sears Roebuck around 1890.
Speaker: But that was what my mother could afford.
Speaker: And she loved refinishing it and she loved
Speaker: of bringing it back to what it should have been.
Speaker: And she knew it wasn't that special, but she wanted to know who made it, how they made it, why they made it.
Speaker: What sort of person would have purchased this?
Speaker: Where it would have gone?
Speaker: What room would it have gone in?
Speaker: And so it was, again, it was stories.
Speaker: It was her trying to navigate the past through a sideboard or a chair or my bed, which I loved and I don't have anymore.
Speaker: But, you know, I did always then gravitate to antiques that had great stories.
Speaker: And you realize that actually every antique has a great story.
Speaker: They're, there's always, they're rooted in something culturally, politically.
Speaker: I mean, you, there's, there's no way you can look at any antique without having even the most casual art historical exploration of it, even if you never majored in art history, which I wish I had.
Speaker: I, I like,
Speaker: I like the deep dive.
Speaker: I like the rabbit holes that antiques can present to me.
Speaker: I mean, I've been staying up recently, which I haven't done in years,
Speaker: three in the morning, taking a deep dive through archives, online archives, digitized archives of art dealers of the 19th century, architects of the early 20th, and just going through the letters, because it's not so much the house plans that interest me, it's the opinions that interest me.
Speaker: I want to know what they thought of this.
Speaker: This is why I like diaries more than anything.
Speaker: Reading those letters about the house they're designing, the client that they're dealing with, somebody who owns 2,000 Delft tiles.
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: That fascinates me.
Speaker: And I think that that's...
Speaker: If you're interested in antiques, whether you're a serious scholar and curator, director of a museum, to someone who's just holding an example of late 19th century Japanese shunga in your hands.
Speaker: It's all about the stories.
Speaker: We're all trying to make sense of the stories.
Speaker: And while we're doing that, we're making sense of ourselves and our world and why we like what we like.
Speaker: I love how you just put that.
Speaker: Because earlier I quoted this review of Curious Objects that said that we shake off the rarefied airs of old.
Speaker: And I wonder, you know, antiques, it's an unusual field in that it really spans every conceivable level of price and exclusivity from the yard sales to the world's richest collectors and museums.
Speaker: And
Speaker: You know, of course, monetary value is an imperfect proxy for cultural or historical value.
Speaker: But it is true that, you know, in general, the more interesting and beautiful and rare something is, the more people are interested in paying for it, right?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So I wonder, thinking again about the magazine, how do you navigate between the scylla of junk and the charybdis of pretension?
Speaker: I hope I'm going to find a sweet spot between that.
Speaker: I don't think we're going to go into the junk area of the world.
Speaker: On the other hand, I don't see why those should be dismissed out of hand.
Speaker: I don't see why something that a rarefied collector might consider to be junk couldn't find an appreciation on the website.
Speaker: couldn't find an appreciation in on our Instagram, which I think our Instagram is already proving there are things that are not wildly rare that make it onto the Instagram and there are lots of fun.
Speaker: You know, it's, it's again, if you don't know,
Speaker: as a collector, and I know people don't really like to use that word too much, but I say I'm embracing the word antiques, why can't you embrace the word collector?
Speaker: That the more you understand what something rare isn't, the more you understand what it is.
Speaker: And you have to sift through all of these genres and all these periods and all these areas and
Speaker: You know, I've, to go back to a word I used earlier, promiscuous, I find something interesting in every period, in every moment, in every genre.
Speaker: There's all, I have to go back to mission furniture.
Speaker: I know that there's a table I must love.
Speaker: I do like mission style desks.
Speaker: My mother had a weakness for those when we lived in California for a while.
Speaker: But I just think that there's,
Speaker: There's room for all of us under that umbrella of antiques.
Speaker: I don't sneer at anything because I'm not in the position to sneer.
Speaker: I'm not from the background that would be to sneer.
Speaker: I want to learn the stories about everything, however mediocre it may be.
Speaker: There's a story there.
Speaker: And part of me wants to follow that.
Speaker: It may not arguably find itself on the pages of the magazine Antiques, but I do think that it keeps my interest in the world of antiques constant.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: How do you think, given your background with a particular emphasis on design and spaces, interiors and so on, how do you think about the distinction between antiques as objects, which are studied and valued for their own properties, versus antiques as a part of a space, where the value is largely in how they contribute toward an overall look or feel?
Speaker: Well, I think that there are, we've always had a rubric at the magazine that's always been in its DNA, which is living with antiques.
Speaker: And as you know, as many of your listeners know, some of the greatest collectors in the world
Speaker: lived with their antiques.
Speaker: They use their antiques.
Speaker: And I, you know, if, if, you know, seeing what the Rockefellers owned at that last great sale and realizing that they did actually use those plates, they actually did all use that silver.
Speaker: And yes, it did contribute to the overall mood of the room.
Speaker: of their rooms.
Speaker: But I don't think they lost those very fine antiques.
Speaker: I don't think they lost any of their value by being part of a livable space because they were originally made for a livable space.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I want to see them constantly used in spaces that are lived in and enjoyed.
Speaker: I think you can divorce those objects out in a...
Speaker: scholastic way, in a curatorial way.
Speaker: But if they're going to be the sort of pieces that are kept behind glazed doors or glazed cases in a museum, that's one thing.
Speaker: But my job is to get people to want to live with antiques and to enjoy them.
Speaker: I mean, I know that the readers already do.
Speaker: We have
Speaker: an enormous amount of readers who've been reading the magazine for decades.
Speaker: But I want to bring younger eyes in so that they can see how something they might overlook or dismiss as formal or traditional or not their taste is being used by someone within their general knowledge
Speaker: span of age, to show how it's done.
Speaker: Even if it's one amazing aesthetic movement table in an otherwise modern room, that says something.
Speaker: It sends a shot across the bow for
Speaker: a lot of people, it might startle them to see something like that on the market.
Speaker: and say, well, I'm really much more of a neutral person in terms of decor, but I remember how great that looked.
Speaker: And what is that?
Speaker: And who were Herder brothers?
Speaker: And why did Lillian Russell hire them?
Speaker: I mean, it's this domino effect that I hope to engender.
Speaker: I love that you mentioned the Rockefeller sale at Christie's.
Speaker: There were many extraordinary things about that sale, but the one that really took the cake for me was, you know, they had two enormous sprawling dinner services, porcelain dinner services.
Speaker: One was a Chinese export, you know, chanlong tobacco leaf, 18th century dinner service.
Speaker: Which, you know, it was estimated, I think, in the low to mid six figures.
Speaker: And it sold for including the premium a little over a million dollars.
Speaker: So clearly something that was...
Speaker: in demand and that is it makes sense it was a surprisingly high result but it was within the bounds of i think what people might have conceivably expected then there was another lot in that sale which was a mataheda reproduction tobacco leaf porcelain dinner service and
Speaker: And that was, my understanding is, that was the service that the Rockefellers actually used most of the time because it was reproduction.
Speaker: And that was in for an estimate of less than $10,000. $10,000.
Speaker: And it sold for almost as much as the original, $900-something thousand dollars.
Speaker: Isn't that extraordinary?
Speaker: It's incredible to me.
Speaker: Well, that's the power of the name.
Speaker: It is the power of the name, but it's also the power of wanting something to put to use.
Speaker: I mean, I have to assume that the person who bought this was thinking, gosh, you know, that's what the Rockefellers ate off of.
Speaker: That's what I want to eat off of, too.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I'm hoping and praying they use that Chinese export.
Speaker: Otherwise, why own a gigantic service like that?
Speaker: Indeed.
Speaker: It makes no sense.
Speaker: Even if it was just to serve Triscuits on.
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
Speaker: But I just I'm very much of the mind that if it was used, use it.
Speaker: You know, yes, you have to understand how to use it.
Speaker: Certain precautions have to always be taken, but that's not a reason not to enjoy it, not to love it.
Speaker: You don't have to use it all the time.
Speaker: Nobody's expecting you to do that.
Speaker: You know, the original service, that Chinese export service wasn't used all the time.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: You know, but it was trotted out on occasions where it would be very impressive.
Speaker: Indeed.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I often say to clients of mine that people are conscious of the amount of money that they're spending to buy something very rare and important.
Speaker: And so they want to know, well, how am I doing investment-wise?
Speaker: What is going to be the return on the money that I'm putting into this?
Speaker: And usually the answer that they want is they want me to say, well, the market is exploding and you're certainly going to be able to sell this years from now for far more than what you paid for it.
Speaker: I don't say that because I don't know that.
Speaker: I mean, nobody can predict the direction that the market is going to go.
Speaker: But what I can say is, think about a stock investment.
Speaker: You know, of course, you hope that the value rises, but you also hope that you get paid dividends on
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I love to just sit down and spend some quality time with an object and bring it back to the shiny patina that I wanted to have.
Speaker: People complain to me about that all the time.
Speaker: But for me, it's a pleasure.
Speaker: But people who complain about that,
Speaker: You know, my response is, then don't buy silver.
Speaker: If that's a problem for you, buy something else.
Speaker: You know, that you can handle.
Speaker: You know, why not go into Antique Pewter or something?
Speaker: It's like, don't throw up the obstacles.
Speaker: Because you're just ensuring that you're never going to have that pleasure and that enjoyment.
Speaker: And don't you find polishing silver to be hypnotic?
Speaker: Indeed.
Speaker: It really is.
Speaker: You can really get into it.
Speaker: It's like listening to your favorite song.
Speaker: Which, by the way, you can do that while you're polishing your silver, too.
Speaker: This is absolutely true.
Speaker: Or a podcast.
Speaker: I listen to podcasts like yours.
Speaker: I wonder if someone is listening to this podcast while polishing their silver.
Speaker: I certainly hope so.
Speaker: Mitch, what's coming up in your inaugural issue?
Speaker: Well, we're right in the middle of the September-October issue, and it's all hands on deck, and we're having a rather wonderful time.
Speaker: And I'm just trying to put into editorial practice what I've followed in my own writing and on my own Instagram and my own blog when I had a blog and my
Speaker: and my own podcast.
Speaker: And that's, I want there to be not necessarily highs and lows, but at least in terms of the way the mountain of the magazine is presented, that we have a very rarefied article next to a personality article, next to a living with antiques article, next to an exhibition article, but everything so different, but yet they fit well under that umbrella of antiques that when you turn the page,
Speaker: I really want people to turn the page and say, oh, I wasn't expecting that, or oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker: Because I feel like if we're, as you said earlier about preaching to the choir, nothing's going to survive if you're preaching to the choir.
Speaker: You need to get new worshipers in the pews.
Speaker: So you have to reach out.
Speaker: And so that's what I think a lot of the
Speaker: September, October editorial lineup.
Speaker: I'm working on November, December, January, February, trying to find stories that will engage, that will delight, that will please the more
Speaker: scholarly portion of our readers, as well as perhaps surprise them and attract other different eyes who would then read the article that that other more traditional reader.
Speaker: was expecting.
Speaker: So I just want it to be a really, I want it to be a feast.
Speaker: I want every issue to be a very full meal and that everyone can walk away with something.
Speaker: Maybe more than just Triscuits.
Speaker: Maybe more than just Triscuits, yes.
Speaker: Well, Mitch Owens, thank you so much.
Speaker: It's been a pleasure talking with you.
Speaker: And I hope you'll come back on Curious Objects again sometime soon.
Speaker: Thank you very much, Ben.
Speaker: Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support by Sarah Bellotta.
Speaker: Sierra Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
Speaker: Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
Speaker: And I'm Ben Miller.
