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An Earthly Paradise
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In this episode of Curious Objects, host Benjamin Miller is joined by Art Historian and author extraordinaire, Verity Babbs to talk about the wondrous world of William Morris’s wallpaper.
Verity Babbs received a degree in Art History from Oxford University and also works as a stand up comedian. With this unique career blend, she aims to demystify the study of art and talk about the elitism that has surrounded the field in the past.
Verity also has an Instagram series where she visits antique shops and thrift stores to find significant objects with interesting stories.
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Transcript
Introduction to Curious Objects Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques. I'm Ben Miller. This is the podcast about art, decorative arts, and antiques, the stories behind them, and what they can reveal to us about ourselves and the people who came before us.
00:00:23
Speaker
Do you love art history but always thought art history books had too many sentences? Well, have I got good news for you. My guest today has written a book called The History of Art in One Sentence.
00:00:36
Speaker
Now, I've read this book and unfortunately i I have to report that it does have more than one sentence. A little bit of false advertising there, but I will admit it is very fun, quippy, and straight to the point it is really the kind of book that you can breeze through but actually take something away from.
Meet Verity Babs: Art Historian and Comedian
00:00:53
Speaker
And by something i mean the 500 years of Western art Now joining me today is the author, Verity Babs. She calls herself an art historian and comedian, which sounds to me a little bit like being a dentist and a slam poet, but she promises me it makes sense somehow. Verity, welcome to Curious Objects.
00:01:18
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me. I'd be paid more if I was a dentist and a slam poet. That sounds like a better combo. <unk> Next time make better choices. I know, i know.
00:01:28
Speaker
Well, thanks so much for having me. So we had 500 years of art history to to to choose today's object from. And for some reason, we ended up with wallpaper. yeah But the truth is, it's it's shameful to me that never before have I devoted ah an episode to William Morris, the great devotee of of handcraft and flower prints.
00:01:51
Speaker
um So, Verity, when I heard you use the phrase socialist nepo baby, I knew that you would be the perfect guest to take on William Morris.
00:02:02
Speaker
But before we get to that, are you ready for some rapid fire questions? I hope so. We'll find out.
Verity's Artistic Beginnings and Inspirations
00:02:09
Speaker
So, Verity, if your book were actually just one sentence, what would it be?
00:02:16
Speaker
um, artists have always behaved badly. That's a pretty good summation. um What is the first work of art you remember falling in love with?
00:02:30
Speaker
I remember when I was a child, there's a a town in ah in North Devon in the UK, which is a seaside town called Ilfracombe. And it is where Damien Hirst used to own quite a bit of property and he opened a restaurant there. So I remember being taken to this restaurant as a child because my grandmother was from the town. um And it's full of um it. It's closed down now, but it was filled with his sort of fish in formaldehyde and wallpaper with pills on. And I really loved that, mostly because I loved how annoying everyone else seemed to find it. That lots of these nice old ladies who live in North Devon were so sort of suitably appalled. um So I think Damien Hirst probably was the first artist that I fell in love with because I liked how contrarian it was.
00:03:12
Speaker
um And then about 10 years later, he erected a huge sculpture in Ilfracombe. called verity what are the chances kidding wow yeah crazy um what's the first work of art you remember mocking oh or is it the same one it probably is it probably is um oh mocking i i think i've always found picasso quite tiresome so i think i've probably always been saying that he's pretty tiresome Yeah, that's a reasonable take. Also, I've never done a Curious Objects episode about Picasso.
00:03:46
Speaker
Wow. Maybe we'll bring you back to spend an hour mocking him. To talk shit. Okay, what was your last international trip?
Adventures and Imaginings
00:03:55
Speaker
My last international trip, I went ah about a month ago now to the Loire Valley in France um on a press trip to something that was advertised as a sort of a foodie, arty weekend themed around the Surrealists. And then I got there and realized this basically just seems to be a lot of...
00:04:16
Speaker
quite wealthy people drinking wine in chateaus and then I remembered that's exactly what the surrealists were doing they were all they were all wealthy bastards just sitting around together drinking um drinking in their chateaus so actually it was very on theme and who could complain about that to be an exactly very lucky girl if you had to pick one artwork to haunt as a ghost what would it be Oh, so am I in the painting as a ghost or am i I... was imagining you sort of hovering around it, but you could maybe insert yourself into it. And I spend the rest of my undead life with it. Yeah. Ooh.
00:04:53
Speaker
I reckon the first thing that's come to mind is like one of Renoir's boating scenes or something where there's lots of people doing things because then you could sort of you could you know eternity is a long time to be a ghost so i think I'd want something with lots of figures in so probably something impressionist-y or post-impressionist-y so I could watch other people have a good time.
00:05:12
Speaker
Yes well exactly and and ideally something very popular so you would have a lot of people to haunt. Yeah You are now banned from art history. I'm sorry.
00:05:23
Speaker
but you you have to pick something else to pair weirdly with comedy. What is it? It was only a matter of time. um So, i mean, the most suitable choice now does seem to become a dentist and slam poet. If I weren't an art historian, what would I be?
00:05:39
Speaker
God. um For a long time as a teenager, I thought I might become a javelin thrower. Really? I was, as a sort of pre-teen, quite quite good at the javelin. So maybe I'd be an Olympic olympic javelin thrower. my God. And it's only art history that's stopping me from being being in the Olympics, I'm sure. I'm sure that's the only thing getting in the way. You've made some some very unfortunate life decisions. know, a fool, a fool.
00:06:07
Speaker
What movie do you love most from an art history perspective? Well, any question that's what's the best movie, and then from any perspective, it is always, because it's the right answer, it is always a Muppet Christmas Carol. its I think objectively, a Muppet Christmas Carol, i I always think that if aliens made contact with us, and were like... show us you know a painting show us a poem show us a film that you think really summarizes sort of like who are humans i would i'd send muppet christmas carol because demonstrates like play and artistry it's got a really great story um it's got some banging tunes um i just think that in any category it's that it's the best film in in the world i think the muppets count as works of art right straight up yeah yeah like
00:06:51
Speaker
you know, the the puppetry of it and the retelling of the ah of the classic tale. i Yeah, I just think it it's um it's a spotless film. And British source material, so that i never hurts.
00:07:03
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, I'd want the aliens to know to be like Dickens is though is is our representative. What's the most valuable work of art that you've ever touched?
00:07:13
Speaker
Ooh. I can't think now how much work I've touched. I remember in university going to have um tutorials in the Ashmolean Museum in in Oxford where we were allowed to handle some sort of ancient object and that always felt so like slightly illegal, like we shouldn't really be allowed to.
Experiences with Art and Museums
00:07:30
Speaker
There are some things in the Ashmolean that I wouldn't mind putting my hands on. Yeah, and but there's not much I wouldn't mind putting putting in my pocket, but you know you're not allowed. um but um Yeah, so probably something really old. You're only allowed to put it in your pocket at the British Museum.
00:07:43
Speaker
not but not once it's at the british museum you can put it in your pocket anywhere else in the world and bring it to the british museum well there's that but but also as recent years have shown us it hasn't been too difficult to put things in your pocket and walk out with them no but um ah i don't want to be associated with this this pro theft podcast well i've been accused of worse ah ah what artist would you invite to to dinner I always say Banksy and not because I'd want to like unmask and reveal him. I just think that he seems like um quite a normal and interesting bloke and like what a life to have led.
00:08:20
Speaker
um And he was also one of the sort of the first artists watching. and When I watched Exit Through the Gift Shop, that was a major, like you really important movie and moment for me. So, um yeah, he seems like he'd have good things to chat about. He's from Bristol.
00:08:36
Speaker
Yeah. What, so by contrast, what artist or or movement or style do you think is most overrated? um I mean, basically anything contemporary I slightly lose interest in, um which is not actually, is it is more of an indictment on me than on um contemporary artists. So um that's very politic of you.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think that if 25 years of art were to be wiped from the face of the earth, the art that I would mind least being wiped from the face they are on face of the earth would be art made from 2000 to 2025. But that might make me a charlatan or lazy. I'm not sure. I believe it reflects badly on me in some way.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'm sure all the artists listening to this podcast right now would agree with you. All of my friends who are... I've got amazing friends who are like brilliant contemporary artists as well. but um so So if you're my friend and you're listening, I don't mean you.
00:09:33
Speaker
I mean everyone else.
00:09:37
Speaker
I'm glad you got in that disclaimer. We will not cut that in post-production. what was the What was the last artwork you saw that gave you shivers? There was a beautiful film in the john hansard gallery which is here in southampton where i live um which and now i completely forgotten the name of the artist but it was this beautiful film um following i think it was two people in palestine doing ah foraging for ah botanicals and for um for um sort of wild grown food and that sort of thing and that felt very um moving and important that these spaces are you know uh
00:10:18
Speaker
ah projecting those voices and things so that felt very moving um i watched schindler's list for the first time the other day oh my gosh and that felt you know massively significant and um important so yeah i've been watching ah i've been watching a lot of things for the first time i watched fleabag for the first time i was very resistant to that because where have you been i know people for years people have been like you'll love fleabag which obviously made me feel like i should not watch it because i pathologically cannot do it because you told me i like it And then I did watch it and it was fantastic. So I'm i'm open to new experiences these days. Who knows what the next thing will be?
00:10:51
Speaker
We won't dig too deep into the so psychology of that. ah
00:10:59
Speaker
We'll be right back with Verity Babs. And as always, I just want to take a minute to say thank you for listening and thank you for getting in touch and for sharing your thoughts with me. All of you who take the time to listen and maybe learn a few things about these objects and works of art and join me and in connecting to their stories. Well, you are the reason we do this show. So thank you for tuning in for subscribing to Curious Objects in your podcast app, which If you haven't done that yet, I highly recommend it. It is the best way to make sure you don't miss future episodes.
00:11:36
Speaker
And thanks to to all of you who have listened to an episode and thought to yourself, you know, I have a friend who might be interested in this one, or maybe my mom would be interested in this one, or my colleague, or my son. And you actually told them about it. You emailed them or texted them about it.
00:11:55
Speaker
That is amazing because that word of mouth is the best way for curious objects to grow. Every little bit of help you give us by getting the word out, I appreciate that so much.
00:12:11
Speaker
So, Verity, I am very excited to get your take on William Morris, but first, could you tell me a little bit about this
The Origin and Purpose of Verity's Book
00:12:21
Speaker
book?
00:12:21
Speaker
Why One Sentence? So um the book sort of came from a series of videos I was doing, which were one sentence answers about art historical questions. um as Things like what is a print?
00:12:33
Speaker
And, um you know, why do lots of ah people in old paintings sort of look a bit green, like they look a bit sick? And, you know, why does um Jesus have such good neck control as a baby and lots of renaissance portraits and stuff?
00:12:46
Speaker
um So single sentence answers to those. And that was sort of for two reasons, because I do believe that most things written about art history are far too dense, far too full of jargon, really inaccessible. But also because I can't really be bothered to make content.
00:13:00
Speaker
So I thought I can just about manage to do a sentence while I'm walking back from the shop. So it is sort of um based on selfishness. But this book is basically a a collation of 10 questions per chapter, three key artists, three key artworks per chapter, and each chapter is a major movement or style or school um from the West in the last 500 years. So the idea would be if you're like, oh, God, I've been invited on a date to see a pop art exhibition. and I don't know anything and I want to know a bit. You could sort of skim through it or, you know, if you think I've always been really moved by the expressionists, but I don't really know very much about them, you can read it through and go, oh, that's what they were getting at. And this is sort of vaguely what they were doing. And this is what was going on at the time. So it's meant to be a kind of introduction, dip your toes into art history that hopefully makes people feel a bit more confident going into galleries and museums. So i think we get a bit scared that, well, maybe I don't know enough to have an opinion.
00:13:53
Speaker
And even though you actually don't have to know anything to have an opinion, I think quite a lot of people will feel a bit better having, you know, having a bit of um info as a kind of um a boy to sort of like keep them, um keep them afloat. And you guys say Bowie, don't you?
00:14:07
Speaker
We do say Bowie. That's so good. It's so much better. um But know to have have a bit of information to sort of them as a flotation device, I guess. so um So that's where it's um it's come from.
00:14:18
Speaker
Well, the table of contents really is amazing. I mean, the you know the Italian Renaissance gets four pages. Impressionism gets five. you cover all of Pop Art in six pages.
00:14:30
Speaker
i I don't really have a question. That's just amazing to me. And you know and most of those pages are drawings. So each chapter has got the same amount of questions in. And yeah, in each of these questions are answered in the sentence. I mean, I will admit, sometimes the sentences are quite long.
00:14:48
Speaker
I'm not saying it's grammatically the best book in the world. birth um But no, so it just tries to get to the the meat of um of these things because I did an art history degree.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I left university and I'd go to museums and I'd read the wall text or I'd try to read an article in a sort of art historical magazine. And I had, I just could not make head nor tail of it. And it's like, this is, you know, I'm someone who has got a degree in this and I work in this world and I don't know what's going on. How does anyone else have a chance of feeling comfortable enough to engage with art history in the way that they want to? So, um so yeah, trying to keep it short and sweet and, and have sometimes really, really had to shoehorn in about four sentences into one, but I think we just about got away with it. Well, yeah, and I mean, you know as you say, art history can can definitely feel a little bit stuffy, and I'm guilty of this as as a decorative arts guy, you know long words, serious faces. And there's this idea that I don't know how many people would actually say this openly or or explicitly believe it, but implicitly, this notion that you really have to be very serious to appreciate a good painting.
00:15:58
Speaker
And I feel like this book is ah is a little bit of an antidote against that, which I really appreciate. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I, when I went to university, I hadn't studied art history before. um So when I started at Oxford, that week that I started my art history course, I joined the improv group in Oxford. And then shortly after joined the Oxford Review, who are the um sketch and and sketch and stand up group. So for me,
00:16:23
Speaker
I've been doing art history for the exact same amount of times I've been doing comedy. So for me, they're very natural bedfellows. And I just find that I'd learn things about artists that are really, really interesting and really stick with you.
00:16:36
Speaker
And then I'd read essays about these artists and then it wouldn't come up. The interesting thing wouldn't come up. Like you'd read this long explanation of how John Ruskin um you know really cared about ah beauty and nature. It's like, yeah, but I don't really care about that. What I care about is the fact that he had had a marriage annulled because he didn't like her pubic hair. That's what I want to know. That's that's the interesting bit. And I think if we you know if we work backwards from the funny bit or the interesting bit to then you know untangle some of the more difficult bits, and I would probably, I and lots more people probably would care more. But um yeah, the art world does have to
00:17:12
Speaker
The art world sort of has to maintain a ah serious facade so that we can all justify how expensive everything is. But actually, most are most really famous artists. It's it's the same thing today of like if you become massively famous or if you become like a billionaire, it takes a really specific personality type to both want that and achieve that. And that personality type often comes with it behaving really badly, you know, being quite nasty, ah not necessarily treating the people in your life very well um or making decisions that are are mad. and
00:17:45
Speaker
And we sort of gloss over that. um And actually, they're some of my favourite things to know about artists. I sometimes worry that I i like the stories more than I like the art. But um yeah, i um I've always been someone who wants to know um about the artist as a pet or the artist or the critic or the historian as ah as a person, and then I'll look at the work. Well, lucky you, you've come on the podcast about the stories behind the art. Exactly. I'm um i'm home.
00:18:11
Speaker
So out of all 500 years, you thought it would be a good idea to come on Curious Objects and talk about some wallpaper. How come?
Delving into William Morris's Designs
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, that there's lots of curious objects in the book um because, you know, we do yeah renaissance right through to the YBAs in the year 2000.
00:18:29
Speaker
and So lots of curious objects. But my favourite is ah and it's my favourite probably because most of the book, you know, we do a question, ah a sentence question answer per question. But this object was so good, it it required two.
00:18:45
Speaker
It required two questions about it so that I could really get across how how ah how brilliant the story is. and So that is why um i' have chosen to speak about William Morris's arsenic-laced wallpaper.
00:18:58
Speaker
And he's this towering legendary figure associated with the pre-Raphaelites and the arts and crafts movement in the late 19th century. And your sentence at the top of the arts and crafts chapter I'll just quote it here. It was a movement inspired by the socialist ideology of William Morris that was all about beautiful and useful objects made by hand by craftspeople as they had been in medieval times.
00:19:27
Speaker
So was this an art movement or just a nostalgia movement? So it was an art movement in the sense that new art was being made um and it was being made in the, you know, it's only a a um nostalgic movement in the same way that the Renaissance was a a nostalgic movement. They're looking back and they're being inspired by things before them. So basically William Morris and John Ruskin and and their little team um basically thought that because the industrial revolution is here people are getting ah furniture made they're decorating their homes they're having their buildings made in a really fast and efficient but sort of um soulless way they really believe that anything can be beautiful as long as it has been made by hand and fundamentally using machinery to create your table and your chairs and and and know and to weave your rugs removes its heart and that um Ruskin in particular believed that this had a detrimental effect of on the soul of the owner as well and like the soul of us as a nation that by having this um this quick fix ah ah furniture and things was it really really bad for your soul and so they were really into the idea of the medieval craftsmen making things by hand toiling you know and seeing the result of their labor um
00:20:42
Speaker
And, you know, I think probably idealistically believing that they were paid a fair wage for it. um But um that's what they were all um all about. And this had huge knock-on effects into the rest of Europe and it over into America. of different movements being really inspired by this idea of making things by hand making things be beautiful william morris said and the famous quote which i think you get on cushions and things which is don't have anything in your house that you do not know to be do not know to be useful or think to be beautiful or something like that yeah and so that's what they were all about And we'll get to the hypocrisy that's maybe baked into this. But, you know, I mean, I will say my apartment is is actually largely decorated with American earths and crafts movement pieces. So I don't want to be too harsh here. I mean, I really love the stuff.
00:21:27
Speaker
ah But I do feel like in your book, there's a tiny little bit of judgment about these guys and specifically about William Morris. So tell me about what's the deal with this socialist Nepo baby stuff? Well, the socialist Nepo baby quote in the book is a joke about May Morris, William Morris's daughter, who um went on to be sort of the head of um one of the departments within the William Morris and Co company. um And I made the joke that you know, is it possible to be both a Nepo baby and a socialist? Surely socialists should not allow their children to take over. and parts of their businesses. But it's the thing with, and this happens to a lot of ah well-meaning socialist figures throughout history and and in English history in particular, is that they are leading movements about working class people while being middle class and perfectly comfortably off because they have the money to mean that they can spend their lives writing books about equality and you know designing things and having sort of a slightly charmed life um and you know and that's not really said with judgment because someone has to do it and the working class classes in the 19th century in Britain and hardly even today are not empowered to um to lead those movements as effectively themselves so so William Morris is a funny character because he fundamentally isn't a struggling working class fella um but um you know he writes a lot about the toil of toil of the working classes yeah Well, I mean, his his family was quite well off, right? I mean, he he didn't need a paycheck, in other words.
00:23:02
Speaker
Exactly. and and And that's been the way for most em ah creatives throughout time, basically. You know, it's a thing of, um for British actors who've won um Oscars or have won BAFTAs and things, a lot of them um have gone to Eton, which is a very, very... um uh seriously posh and expensive we call them a public school here so it's even more posh than a private school so i guess you guys would call a private school um uh here and it's because you know they come from families who can afford to send them to really expensive schools so they probably have a safety net to go and go well I'll try for 10 years to be an actor. And if it doesn't work out, I will presumably join the family firm. right um So, you know, with wealth comes the opportunity to do those kinds of things. But um yeah, so William Morris was um actually, you know, massively, ah like massively raking it in, and which is where he sort of becomes um a bit unstuck in, um in this arsenic wallpaper scandal.
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, and there's this second sort of element of contradiction, which is that i Morris wanted to bring beautiful handmade objects to the masses, but then the cost of his work was so high that in the end, really only the the very wealthy of the aristocracy could could afford it. Yeah. you know I mean, mass production, industrial production was the whole idea was to lower costs, right? Yeah. That's sort of a core tension, at least in Morris, and Morris's work himself. I don't know if you would say that's a broader issue with the arts and crafts movement.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, ah the problem is like a lot of art and all sorts of movements are fundamentally um ideological and idealist. You know, in an ideal world, we would all have beautiful things in our homes that fed our souls. And we would then go to do jobs that we then see the fruit of our labour and we are massively fulfilled and these sorts of things, um which just has like has basically never been in the case in any society ever. But yeah.
00:24:57
Speaker
but so that But wallpaper, which morris um was one what are the main income streams for William Morris & Co, um was quite a good way for um more nor more regular people to get beautiful things into their homes. Wallpaper very, very popular um because it was comparatively cheap.
00:25:18
Speaker
And um and yeah it immediately perked up a room with beautiful design. So um so wallpaper was everywhere. People people were were were mad for it.
00:25:30
Speaker
Yeah. So tell me about Morris's wallpaper. I mean, for starters, what it what does it look like? I mean, they they often have these you know beautiful floral you they birds on it. There's fruit, there's flora um and fauna um done in this ah Gothic style pretending to be medieval. um So it's all very whimsical.
00:25:53
Speaker
um But at the time, since in the late 19th century, one shade of green was particularly popular um and it could be made quite cheaply and um on a mass scale. And it contained a lot of arsenic to give it that colour. But it wasn't just the wallpaper. Arsenic was basically in everything. Like, whatever.
00:26:13
Speaker
Arsenic was in children's toys. It was in people's clothes. People often sort of fell ill through arsenic poisoning after balls because lots of the ladies' dresses were full of arsenic. And by spinning around the room, you release 10 times more arsenic than you're all like actually able to inhale.
00:26:30
Speaker
um So it's in everything because it's a really you know beautiful colour that everyone's to be excited about. and um And Morris was no exception. So it's in a lot of the wallpaper that is green, the originals. Fun times for everyone.
00:26:40
Speaker
Exactly. and And people for quite a long time had so had known that you weren't meant to um take arsenic by mouth. you know they They knew that it's that bad for you to eat arsenic, but they weren't really aware of the detrimental effects of having it just be around you in every single thing you own or touch. um so like napoleon his um favorite color was this really bright arsenic green um and he um had it wallpapered in his home and now when he died um he is said to have died from something else but basically they reckon that the arsenic won't have helped because napoleon quite liked to have very very hot baths
00:27:19
Speaker
in his
Controversies in Art and Humor
00:27:20
Speaker
wallpapered bathroom, which is wallpapered with arsenic and humidity from the bath releases and the arsenic sort of molecules into the air. So they reckon that arsenic will certainly won't have helped. So for for years, people have been sort of aware that arsenic is not great for you.
00:27:38
Speaker
um But then people started to properly keel over like there was a string of child deaths um caused by it and and and morris basically denied um uh that uh arsenic was an issue for for for a good long time in the face of people saying you know arsenic's not good and even by the time that other producers were going arsenic free um morris was still quite resistant to it at one point he like writes a letter to someone um complaining that basically people are saying that they've been, them he calls it being bitten by witch fever, by the witch fever, basically saying you're mad, you know, like leave it off. So he's very dismissive of it, which is, um you know, is not great, but the word but the bad thing is, the worst bit of it is that ah arsenic is a by-product of copper mining and William Morris was the heir to the largest copper mine ever.
00:28:29
Speaker
in the world at the time, which was in, um, yeah. So he actually, um, you know, and arsenic is a by-product of that. Um, so his family, uh, mine was the world's largest producer of arsenic. So for decades, he's been saying, you know, there's no issue with this. So, I mean, are, are we going to do a, uh, an Aaron Brockovich reboot based around William Morris? Yeah.
00:28:54
Speaker
I feel like there's great opportunity here for for some activist filmmaking. Exactly. But I mean, Morris really dug his heels in. there was an arsenic act passed in the yeah UK and um in 1868. But then Morris continues to use it um in designs until 1886, where he where he then discontinues it and eventually starts doing some sort of like properly, specially arsenic-free wallpapers. um So I just, I love characters like Morris who have, you know, they fundamentally have a really good message, right? Like it it is good for people to have art around them. It is good for people to do labour that is meaningful. um And it's just really, really funny when actually behind the scenes, they are completely like cheating the books. They are, you know, ah like lying and stealing. They are, you know, den denied and i deny, deny.
00:29:45
Speaker
And I and sort of that makes me sort of like him more as a historical figure. That sort of makes me like him more. Because if he didn't have double standards, he wouldn't have any standards at all. It's more it's more interesting to have double standards as a historical figure, I reckon. Because, you know, it's just, um and that's the thing with art history. I think we sometimes think about figures like Morris or or any artist, you know, we think of them as these sort of like one-dimensional or two-dimensional figures.
00:30:12
Speaker
characters and then you learn about what was going on behind the scenes the homes they were raised in what in what other businesses they were running these sort of second lives they lived and suddenly they're like you can sort of more imagine them being a person you can sort of imagine them maybe slightly feeling a bit guilty as they you know cash the check from the copper mine as they get another newsletter like newspaper report pushed through their push through their own postbox saying you know six six more mothers and children have keeled over that that makes them so much more alive um which i hope the book does that for a few a few characters so zooming back out to the to the book for a second what is the actual funniest art movement that you wrote about in the book oh that's interesting
00:31:00
Speaker
So some of the thing is, some art movements, especially modern art movements so coming into like the 60s and 70s, are intentionally funny. Like Fluxus is intentionally funny, playful. um ah Art Poppera as well in Italy um has intentionally funny bits. But that does not mean that they were fun to write about. Once something is already funny, it's quite hard to then make jokes about because it's already funny. So the chapters that I loved writing the most were probably of a similar era to this William Morris chapter of... um like the pre-Raphaelites who similarly, um you know, William Morris was involved as was John Ruskin, um looking back at these pre-Raphaelite times back when things were beautiful and sort of medievally as well. um They were good fun because they were all near constantly shagging and swapping each other, um which always ah always brings me joy to read about. um So they were good fun. Yeah. Some of the more serious Victorian things,
00:31:56
Speaker
uh chapters were were most fun because on the outside it seems very prim and proper but secretly they're all going to each other's studios and immediately stripping off and you know so um is it's um it's the unintentionally funny is always funnier exactly yeah like i i run them art themed comedy gigs and sometimes we've been asked to do gigs about cartoons but the problem is cartoons are already funny so you can't go anywhere further whereas actually the gigs we do in front of quite dour Dutch golden age paintings by Rembrandt always great fun because you can go you can take that somewhere that people weren't expecting whereas um yeah already funny things hard to do so um so yeah it was always always fun to revisit these sort of straight laced Victorian characters who were all secretly very naughty
00:32:43
Speaker
Last question. You've covered 500 years of art history. So tell me, what is the one piece of art that everyone listening to this right now should should look at or take a second look at?
00:32:57
Speaker
oh What should my next Google search be? Well, there are some Google searches in the book, especially when we get to the aesthetic and decadent movements happening in the very end of the 19th century, um which are so hilariously erotic that my ah editor said she had to clear her browser history because she was looking at it on a work computer um and she was taken taken by ah taken massively by surprise.
00:33:24
Speaker
um I'd say the first thing that sticks out to me is I think people should have another look at... Albrecht Dürer's 1515 etching of a rhinoceros um because it's worth revisiting that and giving him more credit when you ah learn that he never saw a rhinoceros. He was doing that etching based off someone else's description of one that had been gifted to the king of Portugal, I think, and had been you know shipped overseas. So given that Dürer had never seen one, I think that it's worth having another look to go, actually, fair play. i mean
00:33:57
Speaker
I mean, it does seem to be wearing ah plates of metal armor, like like ah like a soldier. But beyond that, it's a pretty good go. i've sometimes found myself wishing that rhinoceroses really looked like that.
00:34:11
Speaker
I know, but the different outfits. Well, Verity Babs, congratulations on the book. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. It was a delight.
00:34:22
Speaker
Again, the book is The History of Art in One Sentence. 500 Years of Art, but funny. It's available now.
00:34:33
Speaker
Today's episode was edited by Julian Minerva. Support from the Magazine Antiques editorial team includes senior editor Sarah Stafford-Turner, managing editor Christine Hildebrand, and editorial assistant Arvashi Lele.