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Curious Objects at Brunk Auctions
18 Plays9 minutes ago
Join host Benjamin Miller in conversation with Andrew Brunk, Bert Parsons and George Manger at a special discussion about ceramics at Brunk Auctions.
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Transcript
Introduction to Brunk Auctions
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Curious Objects brought to you by the magazine Antiques. I'm Ben Miller. In just a few days, on June 23rd and 24th, two back-to-back single owner sales are going to take place at Brunk Auctions in Asheville, North Carolina.
00:00:27
Speaker
You could call each of these something of a lifetime achievement sale. These are two collections assembled over the course of full lives of collecting. Both include significant works of Americana, but other fields as well, and it's furniture, ceramics, metalwork, even jewelry. So today's episode is a double header with two curious objects.
00:00:49
Speaker
Both are ceramics dating to around 1800, and both are dishes around the size of a plate. One is English, one is German-American. Both have striking but very different styles of decoration.
00:01:03
Speaker
You can see those as always at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast. You can also see them in the Brunk Auctions online catalogs, and I encourage you to do that.
Andrew Brunk's Background
00:01:13
Speaker
Despite the similarities between these pieces, the estimate on one $200-$400, while estimate the other $30-$50,000.
00:01:20
Speaker
well the estimate on the other is thirty to fifty thousand dollars We're gonna talk about why that is, and we'll hear from both collectors, Burt Parsons and George Manger, about their collecting journeys.
00:01:33
Speaker
But first I'm thrilled to be joined by the president of Brunk Auctions, Andrew Brunk. Andrew has been all over studying at Winterthur, working at Christie's, the Philadelphia Museum of Art, before putting down roots back at the family business.
00:01:50
Speaker
We have an awful lot to get to today. So without further ado, Andrew Brunk, welcome to Curious Objects.
Overview and Growth of Brunk Auctions
00:01:57
Speaker
now My pleasure. Glad to be here. So give me the elevator pitch for Brunk. I know a lot of listeners are are already familiar. they may have bought things from Brunk. I've certainly bought things from Brunk.
00:02:08
Speaker
But for those who are less familiar, what's the what's the nutshell? How many floors are we going up on the elevator? um Well, we've been here since 1983. It's a business that that my father started then. He started out as a as a one man show and the business has sort of organically. grown over those 43 years. We've grown to have a lot more staff, a lot more specialists, a lot more reach. We've got lots of experience. Some of us at the big houses in New York and at other galleries and museums and so on. We work all across the country sort of sourcing, you know, good things to bring to market. So while we're based in Asheville, we're very much a a national and sort of international company, but we we love to maintain this sort of small town friendly
Specialties and Market Adaptability of Brunk Auctions
00:02:58
Speaker
vibe.
00:02:58
Speaker
Yeah, and I think a lot of people think of you as being primarily an Americana house, but of course you do a lot of material outside of that field. um And in fact, the the two curious objects for today's episode, one of them is American, but the other one is is English.
00:03:16
Speaker
sure um How do you think of yourself as on that sort of regional versus national versus international stage? um I think it's true that we we have sold a lot of Americana and a lot of Southern things and You know, sometimes I feel like we were pigeonholed there a little bit. It is one of our strengths and one of our sort of prides is that category and it's category I have the most experience in um from museum days and working at Christie's and and all of that. um
00:03:47
Speaker
But we do we have specialists in all all manner of departments we sell. We have a great coin specialist, American paintings, European paintings. You know, we have modern art sales and um sporting memorabilia.
00:04:00
Speaker
silver jewelry, we sell lots of jewelry. So we cover a lot of a lot of those areas. You know, there are some things we don't sell, but we follow the market strengths. And, you know, if there's a good market for it, for the most part, you know, it's something that we handle. And, you know, that the the wonderful reach of the aggregators and and internet bidding allows us to market really effectively in a lot of those categories. So we do wear a lot of hats and you know we a lot of times we're able to go into a collection that has a really broad range of material
00:04:36
Speaker
and still bring to it specialists that are you know focused on those particular areas and sometimes package it up. you know as As with these sales, although little they're a little more category specific, but we've done lots of sales that might have all manner of categories in them. And sometimes those are still really best served up as a single owner of sale because the the market really seems to respond to that that sort of context these days.
Trend of Single-Owner Sales in Auctions
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to talk about that with you because ah we're talking today about two single owner sales and and our curious objects you know are are one each from those sales. And um it seems like there's really over the last five years, there's been so much buzz around single owner sales at the at the big New York houses, but at other houses as well. And i mean, it's this is not...
00:05:27
Speaker
some kind of new invention. Obviously, there have been single owner sales going back as as long as there have been auction houses. ah But um they seem to be drawing more press these days and more more hype. and sometimes seems like they're really fueling bidding wars in a way that is maybe novel. Do do you agree with that?
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, I do. And it it is an interesting development and in the market. I think um as the market continues to really change, particularly in the middle market, we have really seen that the importance of provenance and particularly with well-known collectors or celebrities and minor celebrities and that sort of thing. I do think people love the combination of someone else's taste and eye, particularly if things were collected long time ago. And there has been increasing cachet in the sort of connection to those celebrities or well-known collectors. It also tends to lend itself to sort of a
00:06:30
Speaker
a critical mass. Oftentimes the collections will include enough of a category to really sort of capture people's more focused attention. And part of that then leads to, well, for instance, we sold a collection for a Dallas collector named James Barrow a couple of years ago, and he had great modern art.
00:06:49
Speaker
and great American furniture of the period. And those two things juxtaposed really worked well. It created a really beautiful aesthetic. And it also brings that many more eyes to the project. And you have people that might come for a a period table, but leave with a Jasper Johns print. But I do think single owner sales the last few years, watching the market nationally and internationally, almost invariably,
00:07:17
Speaker
seem to have more appeal and more attraction. And I think that there are a lot of different things that contribute to that. But one is simply wanting a window into somebody else's collecting world.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm excited to get to our curious objects, but I i keep pushing it back because I have other other questions for you about the the marketplace.
Shifts in Collecting Trends
00:07:36
Speaker
um And I do wonder, you know, these two collections that are coming up are both, I don't want to call them narrowly specialized collections because it's not like either person had one specific genre or subgenre that he was primarily interested in.
00:07:53
Speaker
But um there are sort of areas of specialization, You know, these folks clearly had subjects that they were drawn to, mediums they were drawn to.
00:08:04
Speaker
And i do think a lot of the single owner sales that we've seen coming up over the last five, 10 years are, you know, they're from folks who started collecting in the sixty s or the 70s when it was much more common to be a specialized collector or ah almost a kind of encyclopedic collector, you know trying to find all the examples of a particular thing that you could possibly find.
00:08:31
Speaker
But the people who are buying from these single owner sales, you know today's collectors, my impression, i'd I'd love to hear if you agree with this. My impression is that the mentality is a little bit different, that you don't find quite so many of those focused, specialized collectors, and it's a little bit more magpie-ish.
00:08:52
Speaker
Very true. And I think that's part of what is bringing some of the, it's different, but it's also a lot of fun for the newer collectors. um You know, there's been sort of a generational, most rejection of the the sort of period room aesthetic. And, you know, we see that playing out in museums who are in many cases, removing those settings because they don't appeal to people. And you're exactly right. Back in the,
00:09:21
Speaker
the previous generation, like the the idea of recreating the the federal dining room in your house and um all of these very much tied to the whole movement of the colonial revival. um You know, we we built colonial type houses and we filled them with here's your Chippendale parlor and your your federal dining room and you wanted all the trappings that sort of fit right into that. And um I think while we are still selling to some people who are very focused on that sort of period collecting, we're also seeing people come into it
00:09:56
Speaker
from a very different perspective and commingling very different kinds of objects in their homes and, you know, looking for things with real visual snap and things that, you know, speak to each other in the room in a very different way.
00:10:11
Speaker
um you know across category and period, which can be really exciting. And I think it's a lot of fun and I think it appeals to a lot of people. And that corresponds to a real recalibration in the market where you know we have seen things, sort of the pricing change dramatically enough in some categories that all of a sudden things are, that were way out of reach for a lot of people for a long time are back within reach and it allows them to re-engage and to like, uh, to collect more broadly and simply follow the aesthetics of their eye in a different way, rather than conforming to what that, that period dining room would look like. It becomes much more open as to what they, what they put on the walls or how they commingle things.
Unique Ceramic Pieces Discussion
00:10:56
Speaker
So our our curious objects for today are pieces that have both been in their respective collections for decades. Now, they're for a very very brief window, they're in your possession. And in just a few days, they'll be out the door to some new collection. yup No one knows where just yet.
00:11:16
Speaker
um How did they wind up with you? How did you pursue these view single owner sales? Well, I guess first I would say yes, they are. They're here briefly, and that's part of the the wonderful fun of being an auctioneer. We watch things come and go. And both of these objects spent about a month in my office where I was able to selfishly enjoy them. Excellent. And, you know, these things come and go and it's great fun to briefly engage with them. And then it's good practice to simply let them go back out into the world. And then I can pick something else to hang on the wall for a couple of weeks, you know, in between exhibitions or what have you. but Both of the collectors are collectors I've known from, as we say, back in the day, you know, they started collecting a long time ago. um And I've known them or probably close to 30 years. um
00:12:17
Speaker
i think in both cases, you know, we've we've kept in touch. We've reached out to them and we we send catalogs and sort of connect and ask what they're looking for and that sort of thing. And it's, you know, it's part of this is keeping in touch with with those collectors over over those years. And, you know, like it was very different when, you know, George was buying from me when I was at Christie's 20 plus years ago.
00:12:42
Speaker
And, you know, then he's sort of in his prime as a doctor. And, you know, both of these collectors are almost exactly the same age, I think. I may be wrong, I think they're both 84. But um in any case, you know the the years go by and as we've kept in touch, as it happens, you know all of these things come and go from collections. And that's part of the you know part of the fun of it is seeing them come back to market. And I think in both cases,
00:13:09
Speaker
the collectors were really excited to see where they went from there. And, you know, of course, they hope they do well and that sort of thing. And that's part of it. But, you know, it is ah it is a different market. um But these things still need to find new homes. And i think they'll both of them will enjoy that journey of watching them go into a new collector's hands and you know these are things that they have really loved and appreciated in many cases for decades and each piece has its own story connected to it from the collector and they remember where they bought it and who they were with and
00:13:43
Speaker
and so on and so forth. So that that's ah there's a ah great continuity with that. Yeah, fantastic. and So let's let's drill down now, because I want to pick your brain about these two curious objects. So they're both ceramic dishes.
00:14:00
Speaker
They're both sort of give or take dinner plate sized. And ah in some way, you know they're both give or take around the same age. So they've they've got a lot in common, but then there are some pretty startling differences as well.
00:14:15
Speaker
So let's jump in first with a piece from the George and Connie Manger Collection. And this is ah for anyone following no along in their catalogs, lot 555.
00:14:28
Speaker
It is a an earthenware charger, which is attributed to a Maryland ah potter.
00:14:39
Speaker
And ah it' it's very unusual in that it's sort of a ah deep, aggressively shaped dish that has this really fantastic glaze decoration.
00:14:52
Speaker
in the form of manganese and copper. It's sort of, I don't know exactly how to describe it. I think, I hope listeners will will look at an image of it yeah and see it for themselves because it's really quite st striking and there's there's nothing I really have at my fingertips to to compare it to. What's your view on this piece?
00:15:14
Speaker
Well, I love the juxtaposition of these two objects, because as you pointed out, in many ways, they are very, very different. But in other ways, they're actually very similar and and both appealing, I think, for for really different reasons. and I would encourage people to maybe look at them ah simply from a visual standpoint and have some fun looking and seeing, well, which of these do I like better? Which of these speaks to me in a sort of deeper way? um Because I think they, you know, in both cases, the potter is really playing with the
00:15:52
Speaker
a sort of dynamic visual play on the surfaces. And the the one that you mentioned that a Henry Adams attribution is, you know, because it's red wear, it's thicker, it's softer. The slip decoration on it is that beautiful sort of mellow cream background and the the decoration on it you know creates this wonderful visual play. And there are lots of different potters in lots of different countries and traditions that have you know played with with motifs that relate to that. and So from a collector standpoint, a lot of times what we find are you know people are buying based on what speaks to them, which is often and particularly historically is regionally based. And a lot of people historically collect based on where it was made.
00:16:46
Speaker
And we'll see things that could be virtually identical. In material and style and craftsmanship, but some nuance indicates that this one was made here, and this was amazed here, and therefore they're worth very different amount of money because.
00:17:02
Speaker
one is perceived as either more desirable or more rare and so on. Yeah, well, and just to to put a point on that, the estimate on this charger is $30,000 to $50,000. Then the estimate on the other piece, which again, we've we've both said they're remarkably similar in some ways, but the estimate on the other dish that we'll get to in just a second is $200 to $400. Yeah, yeah, there it is in a nutshell, and all the the nuances of the differences in these two objects are all what speak to the the perceived value in the market. And so as as an auction house.
00:17:45
Speaker
You know, what we do is when we get an object, we look at benchmarks in the marketplace that relate to the object. And the the computer allows us to look at all sorts of recent auction records for things that might relate to whatever it is. And those we use as different benchmarks for for establishing a presale estimate. It is all effectively guesswork.
00:18:11
Speaker
um because value in all of these things is you could argue that there is no real intrinsic value between those two objects they will both hold your grilled cheese sandwich in the same way um but the perceived value can be very different but it's also collectors are fickle they're hard to predict um and there are so many things that go into that oh maybe someone out there has the mate to this and they really want a pair Maybe someone already has one and doesn't want one at all, even though they paid a lot for the previous one. Or so many things can play into it. I don't have room for one more.
00:18:49
Speaker
Or I have a space on my shelf that is exactly made for that size. And I have all four other sizes. And this is the one I'm missing. And therefore, I have to have it. So often for the auction house, we are left sort of You know, we don't know all of those nuances and knowing some of them can be extremely helpful. But um part of the magic and the mystery of it all is like, well, what is it worth?
00:19:17
Speaker
Well, it's worth whatever you can get for it is what you know people sort of laughingly say. And and it's very true. And oftentimes that may change in the moment of its sale due to the, all the sort of the excitement of the moment and somebody feeling that someone is pushing against them. Well, if the other person is still bidding, that it must be worth that much. And therefore I'm going to bid. And the other person of course is thinking the same thing. So all of these things are really a, they're signals from our guesswork and looking at the market. And so if you look at,
00:19:52
Speaker
you know, great examples of slip decorated, you know, southern earthenware. This is a really particularly good one, and it's a rare thing. It's in great condition. It's been published.
00:20:04
Speaker
um It's particularly early. So much of the, you know, Henry Adams comes from Germany, the very end of the 18th century. he brings, I should caveat here, I am not the ceramic specialist, but I'm He brings sort of a new level of expertise in slip decorating to that area.
00:20:24
Speaker
So this marks the sort of entry point of that aesthetic and that high bar, and therefore it's it's a bit of a trophy. The other one is arguably as well potted. You know, it's it's porcelain. I love the fact that they are actually both coming out of, the aesthetics are similar, but they're, you know, one is coming out of a British context, the egg and spinach one, I love the name of it. um is coming out of a British context. And you know by this period, the the British manufacturers are um they're making a lot of this for the Western market, and they are providing a lot of material to a very hungry import market here in the us people who really want these fine British wares and so on. So the quality is is is very good.
00:21:13
Speaker
um And you certainly don't see one with this particular decoration every day. But, you know, British porcelain of this period and and pearlware and creamware and all of that is, um you know, they were making a lot of it.
Bidding Dynamics in Auctions
00:21:27
Speaker
So it's coming out of more of a factory setting rather than Henry Adams there and, you know, in in rural comparatively, rural Maryland or in Pennsylvania, the potters coming out of there. It's a very different context. So um the fun of it, I think, is looking at that and wondering like, well,
00:21:48
Speaker
We'll just have to wait and see. you know They may bring way more than their estimate. They may not. um And we are left sort of wondering until the very moment, just like everybody else. A lot of times we don't have the crystal ball of who's going to do what, particularly now because so many collectors bid anonymously online.
00:22:10
Speaker
And they don't show their cards. And the way they used to, we used to get lots of people would call for detailed photos and they would ask questions and they'd, all of those things would sort of signal like, oh, we've got lots of interest in this. And because we provide all those details up front for people on the website now, we may have tons of interest in something and actually have no idea that people are are engaged with it. So it really does leave us guessing, you know, to the end.
00:22:38
Speaker
Well, I will observe that as of our recording, the current bid online for the egg and spinach plate is already at 400, which is your your top estimate. So from here on out, we're in uncharted territory. Excellent. Well, and you'll see that, you know, on things at that value range, people are are much more likely to leave an absentee bid ahead of time.
00:23:04
Speaker
And if if you're talking tens of thousands, they're more likely to to hold their cards until the last or maybe get on the bid by telephone or something. So a lot of times all the big things in a sale have no bids on them going into it, which of course makes the auctioneers nervous, but people are simply you know holding back until not wanting to show that there's interest in the object.
00:23:27
Speaker
yeah it It is striking to me that you know for these two pieces, despite the very different estimates, the cataloging is really quite comparable in terms of what it seems like the work that you and your specialists have put into it, the photography, the documentation.
00:23:49
Speaker
um you know It's all there for for both pieces. Yeah, well, waving our our our own flag here. I mean, I think it's a point of pride for us that we um each object that is consigned to us, we try to give its due. And, you know, invariably, you're probably going to base your bidding on the information that we provide. And, you know, you don't see this everywhere, but we'll have multiple photos of things front and back and details.
00:24:20
Speaker
images under under ultraviolet light, under black light, which, you know, help show restorations and repairs that people love to see. You know, we put condition reports up on everything that are detailed, so you don't have to ask for them and and wait for that back
Ensuring Bidder Confidence
00:24:35
Speaker
and forth. um And you're right, like the, you know, there's a lot of effort that goes into the $400 plate. But at the same time, it it it's ah it's kind of a disservice to the overall process, I think, to not give people what they need to bid with confidence.
00:24:52
Speaker
And, you know, so much comes to market. And, you know, if you're going to collect well and carefully, you've got to do your homework and you've got to really look. And by providing all of that, you know, we allow people to really do all that. And it may mean that The $400 plate you know brings $1,200. And that is the upside to its value.
00:25:15
Speaker
um you know The numbers are different, but it's still doing sort of justice to the object and to the consigner. you know we want Of course, we wish every plate was worth $50,000, but whatever it is, if you're collecting, you want to know what you're buying.
00:25:30
Speaker
And so that seems like an advertisement, but it's just the way I describe it as the the Amazon Prime way of looking at it. And what I want is for people to look at either one of those plates and say, oh look, it's all served up on a platter here. Here's all the information I need.
00:25:50
Speaker
All I have to do is just hit this button. And that's what we've been trained by our our online shopping at you know the big the big stores like Amazon. And um I think anything else now is perceived as ah as a roadblock.
00:26:05
Speaker
know If I have to contact the department to get a condition report or, you know, here's the painting, but there's no black light shot and no shot of the back of it and so on and so forth. Anyway, that's how that's how we look at it. I think there's an expectation from consumers out there that this is going to be easy. And we we try to for a lot of different reasons, we try to cater to that.
00:26:27
Speaker
Well, besides ah hitting the button, is there any other advice you've got for folks who might be thinking about either of these pieces or something else in these sales?
Advice for Collectors
00:26:37
Speaker
um Yeah, lots of things come to mind. i think... um ah The people that I have worked with who have had the most joy out of collecting um have collected because they love the objects they're buying and they they love the history or the visuals, the aesthetics, the process, all of that. And it is meant to be a joyful experience. And that is, of course, we all hope that
00:27:07
Speaker
they will increase in value and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't but it's much more gratifying than playing the stock market at least to many people because whether it went up or down you know these these two gentlemen have spent 30 years enjoying these objects and the process and the memories and all of that so i guess my advice would be to buy things you love and that you know really resonate with you um it always pays to look closely do your homework, read the condition reports, and make sure when it shows up at your doorstep that you know you're you're happy with it because that's you know that's certainly our objective.
00:27:45
Speaker
um And there' you know there's plenty of pitfalls out there. So you know take your time and enjoy the process of it. I love the interplay of objects of different periods and you know different styles and that sort of thing. And there's a lot of fun to be had with that. so Well, ah I appreciate that. I don't want you to um give too much information at the competition. So, yeah well well, I mean, to be clear, I mean the competition against me for your loss. Right, right. No, I get it. I get it yeah So, um um well, which one do you like better? And let's say that let's say there's no price tags and that's a fun way to look
Personal Preferences in Ceramics
00:28:23
Speaker
at it. I love that question.
00:28:24
Speaker
I have to say, for me, with even with no price tags, it's the the Henry Adam piece that really calls out to me. i do love that decorative scheme, that design.
00:28:39
Speaker
i love the colors. I haven't, unfortunately, had the chance to to hold it in my hands, but yeah ah But i ah George told me that it's it's quite heavy. It is, yeah. And I like the idea of that. So that that's where I'm putting my money.
00:28:57
Speaker
Nice. I think that's that's interesting. I think the it is it is much heavier. i think there is something that is visually warm about it.
00:29:07
Speaker
And whereas the other plate is visually cold or cool. um not a better or worse, but what how it appeals to your sensibilities, I think, is probably very different for most people, even even though the the the sort of decoration scheme, they relate to each other, but they they feel completely different. yeah you know They're also about made about the same time.
00:29:31
Speaker
um Part of the reason I really enjoy looking at contemporary art is because I know very little about it. And all of the judgments I would have about value or that perception of what is better or worse sort of go out the window because I'm like, all I'm doing is looking at the at the object and saying, well, what does this do for me? Do I like it or not? And there's a nice purity about that.
00:29:53
Speaker
um There's also something wonderful when you know a lot about the object and you can recognize what's particularly cool about it. Or like if you look at the other ceramics in the manger sale, there's some other wonderful Virginia and Pennsylvania ceramics. Some of them are very small forms, but some of the glazes are so particularly pleasing, even to know it may be just a little cup. It's like very different. And the nuances of that can also be, you know, wonderfully gratifying if you know a lot about it. So you can go it go at it from from either side and it may just ring a different bell for you.
00:30:29
Speaker
And then there's that gray zone in the middle where you know enough to be dangerous. Yeah, exactly. Which probably where a lot of us would fall in in a lot of categories. But um every good collector out there has made mistakes and you know and bought things they wish they hadn't and like not bought things they wish they had. And you know you never forget the things you made a mistake on, that's for sure. And that is part of learning as you collect. Oh, as a dealer, that is that those are the most important learning experiences. Exactly. Yeah. The painful ones. You file that away and whatever it is, whether you take the mistake home or you, you know, you've you go ahead and take your lumps and and that's, but you know viewed at the moment, it's not maybe yeah you don't need another learning experience, but in hindsight, you know you can laugh and say, oh yeah, i got yeah you know I got burned on that one. yeah you know we Part of our effort is to try to you know make sure people know what they're getting. And we're not perfect either, but we we go to a lot of lengths to try to give people the information they need.
00:31:33
Speaker
Well, Andrew, I appreciate the the insights and the the advice, and I wish you the best of luck with these sales. Thanks. Yeah, thanks very much. I enjoyed this, and I hope ah i hope we do well for for Parsons and George Manger, and I hope above and beyond that they enjoy the process of seeing these things sort of go back out into the world.
00:31:59
Speaker
We'll move along now to conversations with Burt Parsons and George Manger. And I'm excited to hear from the collectors themselves how they think about our Curious Objects and about collecting in general.
00:32:12
Speaker
But first I'd like to take a moment as always to thank you for listening and for supporting Curious Objects. This podcast is a labor of love for myself and the team at the Magazine Antiques.
00:32:25
Speaker
And what we love more than anything is to hear your feedback, thoughts about an episode, ideas for future episodes, or just something you'd like us to know that you like or, or God forbid, dislike. You can reach me directly at ben at curiousobjects.nyc.
00:32:44
Speaker
And you can find me on Instagram at curiousobjectsnyc. Now let's get to Burt Parsons, whose sale will be on Tuesday, June 23rd.
00:32:59
Speaker
Burt, you know, i just want to start by asking how you first got interested in in collecting and in antiques.
Burt Parsons' Collecting Origins
00:33:08
Speaker
I guess I've kind of always been interested in decorative things. I've always been interested in music. I've always been interested in the arts. I was raised in in a house pretty much filled with a number of pieces of antique furniture, but they were upscale country southern things, is how I would describe them. And were you allowed to sit on those chairs and use that furniture? Oh, yes. we We used everything.
00:33:41
Speaker
ah And my father was very interested in the arts. He sang. And I was just raised in a family that appreciated things like that. And and I simply, nature gave me the bug to like furniture.
00:33:58
Speaker
furniture and rugs and beautiful homes, beautiful items. So I guess it was just sort of natural when I became an adult that when it came time to furnish a house that I wanted to do it with antiques.
00:34:17
Speaker
And did you have ah did you have friends and peers who were doing the same thing, or was it more of a solitary thing? Well, ah I was originally, i went to law school, and then after law school, I got married, and we moved to Tallahassee, Florida, and we began working.
00:34:38
Speaker
collecting for an apartment in Tallahassee. And there were lots of places in northern Florida that still had antique shops.
00:34:49
Speaker
And northern Florida and southern Georgia are connected and there are a lot of places in the southern part of Georgia that that had great old antique shops like were common in the 1960s and 70s. So that's really how I got my initial start and then after I got out of the service
00:35:20
Speaker
and moved back to Huntsville and began the practice of law. My wife and I at the time became acquainted with Mary Felice Farrell, who was a legendary Southern dealer in Gallatin, Tennessee. And we collected through her for a number of years in Through her, I met a group of dealers in Nashville. Then later in my life, after we divorced, I met and became very close friends with Sumter Pretty. And through Sumter, I met John Bivens and Anne McPherson. And my collecting experience for collecting for a home sort of changed. And I met a lot of Eastern dealers and became acquainted with the dealers that did the Philadelphia show and the Eastside show in New York. And I began to go to those things and began when I could to buy things from them.
00:36:32
Speaker
So it just developed. So ah you mentioned so Sumter Pretty. and in fact, the curious object that we're talking about today is a piece that you acquired from Sumter. That's a name that's ah going to be very familiar to a lot of listeners, I'm sure. Could you tell me how you first connected with Sumter and then how you came across this particular piece? i first I first actually met Sumter at a Heart of Country antique show in Nashville, Tennessee, and we just immediately clicked. Mm-hmm.
00:37:10
Speaker
Is that because you you shared an interest in similar kinds of objects? Well, it mainly, initially it was because of my interest in furniture and the fact that he was already, by that time in the early 1980s, a very well-known scholar and dealer in Southern decorative arts. Now, when did you come across this particular piece, this dessert plate by Spode?
A Special Gift: Spode Dessert Plate
00:37:40
Speaker
Actually, that is a piece that Sumter gave me one year as a birthday gift. Wow. that's That's very kind. and he not only gave you that piece, but then he included it in a book later on.
00:37:57
Speaker
then Then when he wrote the book... My recollection is he called me about it and said he wanted to include it in the book. So I sent it, and there were some other pieces that I had purchased. There's a ah New England painted stand that is also included in American Fancy.
00:38:23
Speaker
which is also included in in the sale we're talking about. And I had bought that from him, and that had to be sent back to him to be photographed for the book, and this dessert plate was also sent back.
00:38:40
Speaker
Now, this is a pretty visually striking object. I mean, just to look at it, it's it's bright green and bright yellow splotches.
00:38:51
Speaker
It looks, if I'm being honest, to me, it looks ah kind of psychedelic. Well, it says in Fancy that it is part of what the Chinese called egg and spinach design. Yeah.
00:39:08
Speaker
Now, is that something you had ever heard of before? or i had never seen anything like that plate when he gave it to me. So that sounds to me like a risky gift. How did he know whether you were going to like it or not?
00:39:21
Speaker
Oh, I think he knew I would love it. He knew what my taste was at that point. What what do you like about it? Oh, the vibrancy, the color.
00:39:32
Speaker
I mean, that's obviously what you love about that plate, the color. Yeah. And how have you lived with it? I mean, is it something that you've, do you eat off of it? Do you display it? Oh, no, that, I don't think that plate's ever been used. There are no marks on it at all. If you, if you could look at it up close, it's in perfect condition.
00:39:55
Speaker
It's dated, believe, in fancy to, to have been made between 1800 and Josiah died in 1797. So his son, who was also Josiah, had taken over the factory by that time. And from what I read, they made a lot of ceramics that were painted like this, or or also painted to suggest painted furniture. sometimes, which I think must have been somewhat unusual for the time. But so you think and intended entirely as a display piece, as a decorative piece and not not a functional piece?
00:40:42
Speaker
Well, I never used it as a functional piece because I wouldn't have wanted to damage it. I had never, ever seen a piece like that before I saw that dessert plate.
00:40:56
Speaker
And I don't think I've ever seen a dessert plate with that exact design on it since. I've got a lot of books on ceramics and it's not something you come across a lot.
00:41:09
Speaker
And did you keep it? Have you kept it in ah in a cabinet or on a shelf? or I kept it ah at my office, and it was displayed in the apothecary chest on one of the top shelves.
00:41:26
Speaker
And that apothecary chest is also pictured in the Brunk catalog. I didn't keep it at home. I kept it at the office and and looked at it every day. And now it's in the sale at an estimate of $200 to $400.
00:41:43
Speaker
That means it's but certainly by far not the most expensive piece in the auction. But I'm wondering what you would hope that its next owner would ah would appreciate about it.
00:41:55
Speaker
Well, I think anybody would simply love it because of the vibrant colors of it. I mean, it's just an extraordinary piece of British ceramics.
00:42:09
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, Bert, thank you so much for talking with me today. I really appreciate the time. Good luck with the sale. Thank you.
00:42:21
Speaker
Last but not least, I'm joined by George Manger, whose sale will be on Wednesday, June 24th.
00:42:34
Speaker
So George, I just wanted to start by asking how you became a collector. It was in my blood. My mother always scoured antique shops.
00:42:45
Speaker
We always looked for stuff. I was most often with her and we would gather things and That's how it all began. I mean, some children don't take too kindly to being dragged around to antique shops by their parents, but it sounds like for you, that was something you actually enjoyed. Yeah, we we had fun.
00:43:05
Speaker
Was there anything particular that you were drawn to when you were young? Not really. ah can't say that, no. No, just a general interest in nice old things? Right.
00:43:18
Speaker
And then as you ah grew up and your taste developed, were you buying things to outfit your house to sort of to live with? Or were you buying things that were more collectibles for display like works of art? or how did do you think about your you're collecting?
00:43:37
Speaker
I was trying to buy the best collectibles I could to furnish the house. So you wanted to live with these pieces and actually use them? Yes. My wife and i spent a lot of time and actually had a lot of fun outfitting the house.
00:43:53
Speaker
And we tried to, we strived to get the best available. when We couldn't break the bank, so you know what I mean. all Right. And where did you generally go to to find these things? Were you buying from dealers or markets or auctions?
00:44:10
Speaker
All the above. and that When dealers realize you're in the game, so to speak, They find you. Indeed. As a dealer, I'm well aware of that from the other side of things.
00:44:21
Speaker
and this The sale has really a wide variety of material in it. So you're not what I would call a ah specialist collector. ah You seem to have pretty broad interests. Is that right?
00:44:34
Speaker
That's correct. That's absolutely correct. ah So you don't really play favorites. you're not You don't have a you know special privilege for your ceramics versus your ah needlework versus something else.
00:44:48
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you, my favorite thing is not displayed, and that's that's my Oriental rug collection. Really? And and what what makes you so fond of that? my mother's saw My mother's love for it.
00:45:01
Speaker
So it really is in the blood. Yes. And um how do you educate yourself about the pieces that you're buying? Read, try to you know pick other people's brains. I do some work, obviously, with my cell phone.
00:45:18
Speaker
I'm not adept at the at the computer. So I do some online work. But you know I try to, if I'm really interested in something, I want to see it personally.
00:45:31
Speaker
Yeah. Is there any particular piece that you felt was your sort of most proud of a discovery that you made about it, something you learned about it or evidence that you uncovered?
00:45:44
Speaker
The most impressive thing has been how my mother one would know, had an unerring eye. It was in a different era, nineteen fifty s and nothing.
00:45:56
Speaker
buy things for nothing They were worth significant. Wow. So she just followed her instincts, but she had she had the eye for it. She had the eye, yes.
00:46:06
Speaker
And it seems like you must have inherited some of that. I think, I hope so. Did you ever make mistakes? Oh, sure. Anything that sticks out for you in particular?
00:46:17
Speaker
Not really. I mean, i'm I certainly made mistakes at scale. You know, i would I would overpay for things that I really wanted, but no, mean, I knew what I was paying for, more or less, almost all the time I knew it. I knew was paying for, yes.
00:46:36
Speaker
So the the curious object that we decided to talk about today is an earthenware
George Manger's Earthenware Charger
00:46:43
Speaker
charger. And it's a really unusual piece. It's it's American ceramics. um It is attributed to a maker in Maryland. you know It's a sort of dinner plate sized charger.
00:46:58
Speaker
a dish, I would say, with some quite striking decoration on it. Would you just sort of describe that piece for me? Yes. This Henry Adam is the supposed maker.
00:47:15
Speaker
Henry Adam came to Angerstown right after the turn of the 19th century, and he ah lived on the same street as Peter Bell. There are records of him acquiring for Peter Bell potting equipment. So he he made this very dramatic tradition.
00:47:35
Speaker
He made this slip-decorated salt-glaze charger with manganese and copper ah highlights.
00:47:46
Speaker
Kind of a really spectacular look. It's got a footed rim, a footed foot, and a bold rim. The rim is not Small, it's bold.
00:47:59
Speaker
So those are characteristic items. It must be quite heavy. It's fairly heavy, yes. yes and's ah I would say it's circa 1805, maybe. Okay, so ah a little over 200 years now? Yes. And in pretty good condition, right?
00:48:21
Speaker
Yes, very good for what it is. So a it doesn't seem to me like the sort of thing that would probably have been used very often, if at all. Wouldn't wouldn't this have been more of a sort of decorative display piece?
00:48:36
Speaker
That's fair. I think that's fair. And for you, what have you done with it? have you you You haven't eaten off of it, have you? I've just displayed it.
00:48:48
Speaker
Yeah, fair enough. you keep it in your You've kept it in your house? or yes ah So tell me about that. it's It's a piece that you care about, that you clearly were we're very happy to acquire, and that you've cherished for for some time. How would you describe your your relationship with the piece and and how you've sort of experienced it over the years? Here's the interesting part. I published a book And I was looking for a noteworthy option and came to pass that they were offering this at Sotheby's.
00:49:25
Speaker
And they were offering with piece of Moravian pottery. And I just kept bidding till I took it till I got it. ah Okay. So you you loved it enough that price was really no object.
00:49:40
Speaker
Right. True. and And how long ago was that? Oh, my goodness. 30 years ago, maybe. ah Right, right. ah You even loaned it to an exhibition, didn't you, in 2003?
00:49:52
Speaker
Yes. So tell me about the, um I mean, you apparently must have enjoyed sharing it with the public through that exhibition. Now you're sharing it with the public again through this sale. Right.
00:50:06
Speaker
what What would you hope for for someone to see in it, somebody who might be interested in buying it or even just enjoy looking at it? Well, all that. I mean, you would hope somebody would enjoy the art value. You hope somebody would enjoy the beauty, coloration, the craftsmanship.
00:50:25
Speaker
All those. It does really strike me as a work of art to look at it. Well, it is. I know these these ah distinctions between art and decorative arts are very fuzzy and controversial, ah but you could see this almost as a painting as much as an object, is is don't you think? Yeah.
00:50:45
Speaker
I agree. I agree. do agree. And that color scheme is strikes me as quite unusual. the man The green of the manganese and then the sort of rich brown-orange of the copper. Yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
I mean, how did Henry Adam, assuming that that's in fact who made it, what do you think led to this decorative scheme? i think it was something that was inherited from his German roots.
00:51:13
Speaker
And... now You know, maybe he embellished, maybe he took off at a creative moment. I don't know. But it's a very dramatic form, as you know. Yeah.
00:51:25
Speaker
I mean, have you seen any any comparable pieces? Anything? Never. Never. i don't think that I don't think they exist. It really stands alone as a kind of a moment of inspiration.
00:51:38
Speaker
Yes. It survived. It survived. where Where do you picture this piece in a month or in ah a year or in 10 years? i hope it would be in a museum or at least being cared for properly and and enjoy it.
00:51:54
Speaker
Do you feel that there are younger collectors and scholars and curators who you think would be motivated to take an interest in this piece the way that you did?
00:52:07
Speaker
Gosh, that's a great question. I don't know. now Young people don't seem too interested in old things. They just don't. It's kind of tragic, but that's true.
00:52:18
Speaker
it seems like your interest was really a matter of of instinct more than anything else, ah following your nose. And like like your mother, with her eye for things, you picked out a ah pretty good one. And ah your your instincts were right, that it was not just important, but that it was something that you would continue to enjoy for for decades.
00:52:39
Speaker
Right. Well, congratulations on on a very exciting sale. I can't wait to see what comes of it, and i I'll be watching this piece especially closely. That's very wonderful. Thank you so much, Ben.
00:52:54
Speaker
And there you have it. Once again, the sale room is Brunk Auctions in Asheville, North Carolina. Burt's sale will take place on Tuesday, June 23rd, and George's will be the day after, Wednesday, June 24th.
00:53:07
Speaker
You can find both of today's Curious Objects listed in those sales at brunkauctions.com.
00:53:15
Speaker
Curious Objects is produced by Urbashi Lele. Today's episode was edited by Julian Minerva. Support from the Magazine Antiques editorial team includes senior editor Sarah Stafford-Turner and managing editor Christine Hildebrand.