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Something Blue - Delftware ceramics and the women who made them
3 Plays4 minutes ago
Join Curious Objects host, Benjamin Miller in a conversation with Genevieve Wheeler Brown, the author of Beyond Blue and White to talk about the history of Delftware ceramics through the female lens. We learn about the fantastic women who made these coveted ceramics and understand the humor behind these fascinating pieces of decorative arts.
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Transcript
Introduction to Curious Objects Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques. I'm Ben Miller. This is the podcast about art, decorative arts, and antiques, the stories behind them, and what they can reveal to us about ourselves and people who came before us.
00:00:23
Speaker
In this episode, we are diving into the world of blue and
Delftware and its Global Significance
00:00:26
Speaker
white. And of course, I am talking about Delftware. the iconic 17th and 18th century ceramic produced in the Netherlands, especially eponymous Delft, during the Dutch Golden Age. So these are instantly recognizable pieces ranging from everyday tableware all the way up to elevated luxury items, plates, bowls, jugs, vases. It's the Dutch answer to Chinese porcelain.
00:00:52
Speaker
and the spiritual ancestor to the blue willow pattern that, as far as I can tell, pretty much all grandparents everywhere use. So these objects were not just a symbol of status, although they were a symbol of status, they were not just a nod to the explosion of global trade, but also a testament to the the powerful and often overlooked women who built an industry shaped a culture.
Author Introduction: Genevieve Wheeler-Brown
00:01:19
Speaker
Our curious object for today is a puzzle jug, and we'll talk about what that means. My guest is Genevieve Wheeler-Brown. She is the author of the new book, Beyond Blue and White, The Hidden History of Delftware and the Women Behind the Iconic Ceramic.
00:01:35
Speaker
It's both ah a really helpful general history of Delftware, but also a close look at the surprisingly central role that women played in the Dutch ceramic industry. Genevieve, welcome to Curious Objects.
00:01:47
Speaker
Hi, Ben. It's great to be with you guys. So first, congratulations on the book. Great achievement. There is so much that I'm excited to to ask you about. But before we get to that, as you know, i have some rapid fire questions for you. Are you ready? All right, let's do this.
00:02:03
Speaker
Okay, Genevieve, what was the first object or artwork that you remember falling in love with? that's got to be, um let's see, that's got to be the Whistler's Peacock Room at the Freer in Washington, D.C., where I grew up.
00:02:19
Speaker
I think everyone falls in love with that room when they walk into it. It's it's just everything. It's architecture, design, ceramics, all in conversation. i mean, it's mesmerizing.
Art and Auctions: Whistler and da Vinci
00:02:29
Speaker
What's the most exciting bidding war that you ever witnessed at Christie's?
00:02:34
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that would have to be, oh my it was so much fun. It was um Leonardo da Vinci's, um it was called the Codex Hammer at the time. And it was the highest, I mean, I have this thing, you know, I love decorative arts, but I have to say books and manuscripts. That's the second for me. And this was, this was phenomenal. Yeah. And it, it fetched the highest price ever at the time for a manuscript. So you remember what that was. Oh, and it was bought by, um yeah, that was Bill Gates.
00:03:04
Speaker
Bill Gates bought Yeah, put it in his library in Seattle, which was which was actually built by a a friend of the podcast, Ken Rendell. Oh, wow. Oh, my goodness. That's amazing.
Art Preferences and Overrated Movements
00:03:16
Speaker
What artist or craftsperson or movement or style do you think is overrated? That's a tough one because you kind of fall in love with all of them. at one time or another gosh there must be one that really gets under your skin though no i don't know i've never maybe it's just a person uh yeah i yeah art deco i love i mean i love the concept of it but i've never fallen fallen in love with it and that's i don't know i have to i have to look at i have to maybe when you have a quite when something like that
00:03:50
Speaker
touches you like that, maybe that's an invitation that you need to dig deeper. So I'll leave it at that. Wow. I mean, that's a little bit of a weasel answer, but I guess I'll let you get away with it.
00:04:01
Speaker
I mean, to be fair, Art Deco is so highly rated that even if it's very good, it could still be overrated.
Handling Masterpieces: Violins and Fabergé
00:04:07
Speaker
What is the most valuable object or artwork that you've ever touched?
00:04:13
Speaker
Ooh, am really fortunate to have touched several, and I would have to say it's ah it's a close tie between a Stradivari violin and Fabergé egg.
00:04:28
Speaker
And both were at Christie's and that was just sublime both sublime. But um yeah, the Faberge egg was fascinating. I had to take it actually over to the Museum of Natural History because we needed to test. There was an ivory-like substance in it, a component of it. And we actually we discovered working with the Museum of Natural History that it was in fact... um It was a woolly mammoth tusk, not elephant. Oh, wow.
00:04:57
Speaker
That they used, that they dug up in Siberia. so Wow. It was fascinating. That's fantastic. That'll be a good curious object for another interview, I think. Oh my gosh, yes.
Cultural Depictions in Film and Museums
00:05:06
Speaker
What movie has the most interesting depiction of material culture?
00:05:11
Speaker
um So for me, more is definitely more. so I go big in this thing. So it would definitely be, again, um something like Sofia Coppola's Maria Twinette. But I love old movies. So maybe Auntie Mame any of those amazing, yeah, grand, yeah. yeah and That's what I haven't heard before. I like it.
00:05:37
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. I love Auntie Mame. I aspire. yeah yes It's an admirable way calling. What's your favorite museum to visit?
00:05:48
Speaker
Ooh, again, i think it's very um environmental. So, mean, starting, yeah, having started with, you know, love of the Peacock Room, I'm definitely drawn to environments um that incorporate both fine and decorative arts. So that easily falls between, say, the Frick or the Gardener in Boston,
00:06:10
Speaker
um But, you know, I was just at Jan Six's home in Amsterdam, which everyone can go to You just have to sign up in advance. And that is phenomenal.
00:06:22
Speaker
Like between the Rembrandts and and, hey, the man has a collection of puzzle jugs. So that's what I was there. extremely apropos of today's conversation.
00:06:32
Speaker
So what was the last object or artwork that you saw that gave you shivers?
Mesmerizing Museum Experiences
00:06:40
Speaker
So... It there would be sort of the shivers in the way that it's just mesmerizing um transcendence is definitely the Rothko room at the at the Phillips collection in Washington, DC.
00:06:57
Speaker
um Just being able to sit alone in a small space like that, you know, it's so such close proximity. and mean, we just don't have anything like that in New York. Yeah.
00:07:08
Speaker
yeah that's and that That immersive experience. I mean, I'm not even ah a huge Rothko fan necessarily, but the time that I've spent in the Rothko Chapel in Houston has just been transformational.
00:07:22
Speaker
Although, i you know, after the recent flooding, unfortunately, I think that is permanently gone. Yeah. That's, I'm sad to hear that. But everybody, yeah, everyone should take the opportunity to to go down to the Phillips and experience that.
Historical Curiosity: Mary II and Delftware
00:07:38
Speaker
What's the ugliest object that you've ever seen, but you secretly love? So that is definitely, i I mean, I think I still have PTSD from those Martin Brothers birds. And like in studying ceramics, you see it and then you never forget it. But again, is that a sign? Like when something, you can't forget something like that?
00:08:03
Speaker
um That's a good thing right yeah it really sticks with you did you handle those at Christie's or was that just during your education no I just remember studying them and I just lead like leaning into it you know like that is truly never but I mean they were hugely popular so go figure no amazing what's one question about an object that you've never quite been able to answer but but wish that you could So those would be definitely tied to the, to this, you know, my, my journey into Delftware, which, um, which is really about,
00:08:39
Speaker
um you know, looking at um looking at, you know, the Delft ware that was commissioned by Mary, Queen Mary II. And, um you know, did she ever, i mean, she was princess, you know, of orange before she was queen of England, but did she ever go Delft itself? Did she ever go to a pottery? I mean, these are, I mean, I had lots of questions, but that was one of them, you know, looking at that.
00:09:07
Speaker
Or did she really just work through intermediaries? I can't imagine. so Interesting. Well, let's let's go from questions that we can't answer to questions that you definitely can't answer.
Engagement and Listener Interaction
00:09:23
Speaker
We'll be right back with Genevieve Wheeler-Brown. But first, I always like to just take a minute to say thank you for listening. um I'm always interested to hear your thoughts, listeners, ah topics that you'd like for me to cover, guests that you'd like to hear from. something you'd like to tell me about ah an episode you listen to any of that you can reach me on instagram at objective interest or over email at curiousobjectspodcast at gmail.com and of course if you'd like to support the work we're doing the simplest thing you can do that has a big impact is to go into your podcast app and give curious objects a five-star rating
00:10:03
Speaker
And if you want, you can share a few words about why you like the podcast so that other people can find the show. If you haven't done that yet, you can do it right now in your podcast app without even pausing the show.
00:10:15
Speaker
And while you're there, make sure you are subscribed to Curious Objects so you get new episodes in your feed automatically. And thanks to all of you who have heard an episode and thought, maybe I know someone who'd be interested in this one and told that person about it.
00:10:31
Speaker
Word of mouth really is the best way for curious objects to grow.
00:10:39
Speaker
Okay, let's get back to Blue and White. Now, Genevieve, I have to say this book really challenged my expectations.
Women in Dutch Ceramics Industry
00:10:47
Speaker
When I found out that you had written this book about women and Delftware, I'll admit I kind of assumed that it would be a few token stories about exceptional women who are involved in this male-dominated trade.
00:11:02
Speaker
But actually, right out of the gate, you make it clear that women were really deeply ingrained in every level of of the Dutch ceramics industry. And you do share some stories with us about exceptional women. But the bigger takeaway from the book is, at least for me, that it actually wasn't that exceptional for Dutch women to be involved and active in the trade. That, in fact, it was quite normal, which in itself was incredibly abnormal for the for the time.
00:11:31
Speaker
So, I mean, do I remember right that something like 30% of Dutch potteries were owned by women? yeah No, you're exactly right, Ben. It was um one in five of the names. So basically, the the owners of the potteries were registered with the Guild of St. Luke in Delft. And so that's the group, of course, that's monitoring and overseeing the production of art um And ah the owners had to register um and prove their master tests.
00:12:01
Speaker
um And if you look at the list of all of the names of all of those owners from the 17th through the 18th century, one in five are women. So that says a lot because if one in five were registered um primarily um and a lot of the time as widows taking over for their husbands who were the primary you know name listed,
00:12:27
Speaker
That means that women were really all along partners and then also sliding into those roles as owners as well. But there also were women starting their own potteries. So, um yeah, it was much more prevalent um across the board.
00:12:46
Speaker
um Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's crazy to think that 20, mean, today, obviously, we would look at ah an industry with 20 percent female participation and think that's horribly imbalanced and male dominated. But in the context of the time, 20% really was quite extraordinary. And, you know, my clients, when we talk about silver are often shocked to learn about how many women were involved in the English silver trade.
00:13:13
Speaker
who I've often been puzzled by why you don't see equivalent representation in other craft industries. And, You know, you're making the argument that in Holland, at least, women were playing a very meaningful role in the production of Delftware.
00:13:28
Speaker
And I want to dig into this with you, and we're going to get to our curious object in a moment, because that's a really interesting example of what we're talking about. Why do you think women found such a powerful foothold in these two specific industries and and locations?
00:13:44
Speaker
Well, let's see. Well, Delft was also very powerful. It was like it was one of the the Dutch East India Company's central locations. So it was a powerful center urban. It was at the time. It's a small town now. Back then, no, this was a very important city. um But the success of women in that environment was.
00:14:07
Speaker
like Amsterdam or the other you know major cities of the time. of the time i mean, it was based on, there were three sort of three components that were tied to their success and they were you know hurt their legal rights, their education, and just the necessity of the situation in the Dutch Republic, which is, i mean, the legal rights system, it's it's unique. you know Women could inherit equally as their brothers out of the gate, always. And the Guild of St. Luke, as we mentioned earlier, allowed widows to sort of slide into the, into, you know, move, pivot into the role of owner at the, at the death of their husbands without taking a master's test. So that's immediate. So the, the business continued without a hiccup.
00:14:52
Speaker
Um, mean, women had, they were educated, they were girls. Girls were taught, you know, not just reading and arithmetic, but ah financial literacy, which was something that blew the English mind. Yeah, this is crazy. I mean, you, in the book, you quote this report from the east and the English East India Company, and they're trying to figure out why it is that their Dutch counterparts are so successful.
00:15:17
Speaker
and And one of the factors that they point to yeah They were obsessed. They were obsessed. Yeah. I mean, this is hugely competitive. They're desperate to to try to get any advantage or or cast off any disadvantage they can. And one of the factors that they point to is the education of of the daughters of Dutch families.
00:15:38
Speaker
So they... really are looking at this even in the 17th century and thinking, gosh, there's actually economic benefit to educating women. crazy at Crazy as that sounds. Yeah, and it and I love the wording, which was that it's not just that they were taught, but it was the love, the love of math and reading that they that the English noticed.
00:16:00
Speaker
you know That it was it was like just so ingrained in a young, you know a boy and a young girl. um' life And I mean, and that was reflected in the literacy rates. I mean, they had 70% and they, so they're, they used to, so historians use the, you know, the ability to sign your name and legal documents as sort of a baseline of literacy. So in Amsterdam in 1650s, 70% of men could sign their names you know and in registers and 50% of women, which was incredibly high, given that it was about 35% across the board in the rest of Europe.
00:16:39
Speaker
So you had incredible literacy. um But there's... And overshadowing all of this, though, was this necessity, you know, for women to be in business um because a city like Delft,
00:16:55
Speaker
um really had more women than men in it at the time. So in the 17th century, 18th century too, yeah, there were many, many more women than men, and that which is because the men had gone off, or a portion of the men had gone off with the Dutch East India Company on these international you know trade missions. so And they all died.
00:17:22
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, it's crazy. And the numbers are crazy. Yeah, they called it the Indianish Lech, the Indian Leek. So you have these incredible numbers like, you know, of you know, ah something like of the 8,000 men that went over from Delft as sailors in the 17th century, only, you know, 6,000 returned. And then the the military, the the soldiers that accompanied the ships,
00:17:48
Speaker
um you know And to protect the goods and then to basically you know enforce law when they arrived in in Asia. um That's even worse. Of the 2,000 soldiers that went over on these ships to you know protect and pick up the porcelain, only 600 returned. Wow.
00:18:06
Speaker
wow um So that's pretty grim, um which meant that back at home in Delft, self-sufficiency wasn't um wasn't really a choice in these businesses that the women were running. It was it was a necessity. Yeah.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's some really amazing context. And so let's back up for a minute and talk a little more broadly about Delftware. And
The Engineering of Delftware Puzzle Jugs
00:18:32
Speaker
I think a lot of listeners are are going to be familiar with Delftware. They know this these famous blue and white patterns and forms and styles.
00:18:40
Speaker
But our curious object for today is a puzzle jug. And for listeners who may not know what a puzzle jug is and whose imaginations are running absolutely wild right now as they think about what that could possibly mean, tell me what a puzzle jug is and and why it was the original viral party trick.
00:19:01
Speaker
Oh my gosh. So, so the puzzle jug, the Delftware puzzle jugs are, they're tin glazed earthenware to start, which is, which is, you know, the soft material, which is great. But the, but the, the puzzle jug itself is a really, is a piece of material culture. It's a decorative art where wit meets craft and it's really, it's part drinking vessel. Of course, it's a part practical joke.
00:19:25
Speaker
And it's just like ah it's just a part engineering marvel if you think about it you know in in soft earthenware. um It looks, and you you know if you saw you know this lovely blue and white puzzle jug at a distance, it sort of looks at first glance to be like, is it a pitcher? Is it a plain jug? But then when you get closer, you'll notice that it has multiple spouts around the rim.
00:19:50
Speaker
sort of odd, right? It has a pierced neck, right? A pierced neck. Okay. So which obviously kind of flaunts the fact that it's of its, you know, undrinkability, because if you were to try to drink it like a regular jug, if you lifted it by its long handle on the side of the body, um liquid would literally spill everywhere.
00:20:13
Speaker
So yeah, these puzzle jugs were really were the life of the party in 17th and 18th century Europe. And they were made across Europe. They were usually ceramic, but they could be other metals, technically. um The oldest ceramic puzzle jug that we know of dates from around 1300, and it's French, and it's known as the Exeter puzzle jug. And it was found in a drain in Exeter in England, and um it's now in a collection. But basically, the puzzle jug is a logic puzzle and just a fun. It's you know disguised as a piece of pottery. um
00:20:55
Speaker
So basically, you know this fantastic jug would be brought out at the dinner table, you know probably at this jug in particular, which is very, you know it's you know a fine example with beautiful painting um and in you a delicately you know pierced neck. um would have been brought out at a you know a sumptuous Dutch 18th century table covered with you know white Dutch linen. um And basically the guest would have to determine, you know figure out the trick. And the trick was hidden in the design of the puzzle jug um because the puzzle jug had concealed internal channels. It had a hollow handle
00:21:38
Speaker
It had secret holes, sometimes placed under the handle, but the guest would have to figure out and find find the hole and figure out the exact you know configuration of which spout to cover, which hole to cover, and then sip from one of the spouts. Otherwise, the wine, they would be wearing the wine. so It was like a full. So, yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun. And I'm sure a lot of linen napkins were sacrifice sacrificed in the 17th and 18th century yeah playing with these things. Well, obviously, it would be way more fun if the guest failed and spilled all over themselves.
00:22:20
Speaker
Absolutely. We're hoping it was a white wine, not red wine. Yeah. Yeah. Especially given how expensive fine clothes were at the time.
00:22:31
Speaker
um Walk me through the the life of this particular puzzle jug. let's just start at the very beginning with the clay. Sure. And talk me through its life all the way up through the shop window and and into the buyer's hands.
00:22:48
Speaker
So um so the the puzzle jug, um it is it's i mean it's the masterwork of there are maybe 30 to 50 people working in that pottery.
00:23:00
Speaker
And it would start with the clay the clay being brought up to the ah using, well, let's see, there's, well, starting with the, in the pottery is the earth treader. And the earth treader is literally um softening the clay with his feet.
00:23:22
Speaker
And so then the the clay would be brought to, then next to the potter who would, you know, bring up, using probably like three to four pounds of clay for something like a puzzle jug, you know, bringing up, you know, the mini the small spouts for the rim, then bringing up the body, um creating those secret channels, forming the handles, um which is really fantastic. And then you know cutting then then cutting everything from the pierced neck to you know making that secret hole. And then the piece would go to um
00:23:59
Speaker
go into the kiln for its first firing. And remember, it's it's earthenware clay. It's that buff clay that comes out, light tan.
00:24:11
Speaker
um So the piece would come out of the kiln. And at that point, the the person known as the geather would dip it in that white glaze, which is which is filled with tin, and that creates that opaque white layer to make it appear like Chinese porcelain. So remember, so it's layered, you have that buff, that buff body covered with a white tin glaze.
00:24:37
Speaker
Then it would be hand off handed off to the painter who would then you know sit down at their bench with their hand. They would usually make their own brushes, you know dipping that cobalt slip to to work with their, to create the you know the images across the body.
00:24:55
Speaker
And the cobalt slip starts as this gray, it's a gray material, which is painted when ah when put into the kiln, then turns into that vibrant cobalt. So it's this ah chemical transformation that that it undergoes in the kiln.
00:25:14
Speaker
but But before, the last step, before it goes into the kiln for the second time is then it has this lead, this clear, ah transparent lead glaze, which then the whole body is covered in, which gives it that final sugary,
00:25:32
Speaker
um sheen. So it's it's the Delph Ware is a series of of layers and many steps, um quite labor intensive. But the end result is that it closely resembled Chinese porcelain as a result.
00:25:48
Speaker
well and this so This particular jug was made in a specific manufacturing that you know because the jar the jug is marked, right? Exactly. So this particular jug has at the base, you see the letters which sent me on my path. you know this was This was the piece that I saw just you know just it it it opened the door to many questions, were the initials GVS. And the initials GVS on the base of this particular puzzle jug represented the owner of the pottery. And her name was Hertrid Verstella. And so she was the owner of the old Moreshead pottery in the seventeen sixty s in Delft.
00:26:35
Speaker
um so And this piece is really special as well because hidden in the foliage is the date, 1769. So this is the end of her, like towards the end of her career, and it's hidden on the side of the body. um and We don't really know where the piece went next, but I would imagine that it was, you know, carefully wrapped in
The Journey and Legacy of Puzzle Jugs
00:26:59
Speaker
straw.
00:26:59
Speaker
and it was placed into a handmade container made by a member of a pottery. Each pottery had someone to make their own crates for them, their boxes. I've always wondered about that because they you know today we it's so nerve-wracking to pack valuable ceramics, and we have the advantage of you know bubble wrap and packing peanuts.
00:27:21
Speaker
So these pieces had to be really carefully tended to. Yeah, absolutely. It's everything is I mean, it's absolutely the same, the same, the same issues, the same concerns. You know, they're great. You know, they're they're great. man There are, you know, documents, you know, discussing ah breakage in transit, you know, ah you know, discussions between, you know, buyer and seller. It's you know, it's it's really the same same market.
00:27:47
Speaker
So this this puzzle jug you know may have stayed in the Dutch Republic, but it could have traveled far. I mean, it could have been put on a boat because the potteries were right on the canals.
00:27:58
Speaker
And then it could have set off you know through the canals to the rivers, to the sea, maybe to Europe or or England. But if it stayed in the Dutch Republic 1769, it was about to be a very dangerous time. because this was the end of the Dutch Republic. I mean, this was towards the end of it. It was the end of the Dutch ah Golden Age, 1769. And that last part of the 18th was, it was a time of revolution, not just the French or the American, also the Dutch themselves were in revolution. um The French invaded shortly after this um and the Dutch East India Company dissolved by the 1790s.
00:28:44
Speaker
um But the jug, i don't know, maybe it was hidden um in this period because we don't know where it is through the 1800s. But then miraculously, it reappears, of all places, in the United States by 1920 when it's in the collection of William Randolph Hearst.
00:29:04
Speaker
The William Randolph Hearst. Yes, the, I mean, the, exactly. And his, I mean, his collection, he had actually many pieces of, of there I mean, i well, his is his collections are encyclopedic, but he did have a selection of Dutch Delph wear.
00:29:20
Speaker
um It appealed to him. And I would love to know you know, where was this piece located? Was it you know in New York? Was it you know in in in the castle? where you know what you know how did he you know Did he bring it out at one of his sumptuous dinners? you know i hope and i i mean, that made the silver there was incredible. so yeah.
00:29:44
Speaker
wow and so where where was it where has it been then since since william randolph heart but Then, yeah, so it was purchased um by really an incredible and overlooked network of women who had who were starting a museum.
00:29:59
Speaker
And these the the museum co-founders were Alice Vanderbilt, who was Mrs. Cornelius Vanderbilt II, along with her um colleague, well, another you know legend of of of New York society, ah Mrs. J.P. Bront Morgan.
00:30:18
Speaker
um And then the the Puzzle Jug becomes a part of their Dutch Delvework collection at their museum, which they started, which was called the Van Cortlandt House Museum, is called to this day the Van Cortlandt House Museum in the Bronx.
00:30:32
Speaker
And that's where it lived. And that's how you ended up encountering it. And I i want to hear about your experience of it because, you know, I think there can sometimes be a moment when you look at something with fresh eyes and maybe you've seen things like it before in passing. maybe you've even looked closely at things like it before, but this time for some reason, something is different and you find yourself captivated by this object. And it's something that honestly happens to me all the time, at whether it's at a museum or in a sale room. And it sounds like something similar happened to you with with blue and white ceramic and and with this piece. So tell tell me about that.
00:31:19
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, it's I absolutely agree.
Personal Experience with Delftware
00:31:23
Speaker
There's so I mean, so many things that are hidden in plain sight. So um so I'm an art advisor as well as a writer. And I spend a considerable amount of time, you know, speaking, speaking to collectors, you know, receiving you know emails from lawyers.
00:31:40
Speaker
um But on this one occasion, i I was invited to come and help with the reinstallation of this collection of Dutch Delph wear that's in Manhattan that belongs to the National Society of Colonial Dames. And it had been um it had been sort of lovingly stored, you know, in their original cases in an upper and upper room.
00:32:07
Speaker
um But, you know, with a hundred years, you know, the the panels, you know, it's it had become bowed. And so when um the organization just needed, we needed to put together a plan, you know, for the conservation of their, you know, of their display. So I was brought in you know,
00:32:28
Speaker
stepping into the room, you know being surrounded by over 75 pieces of of Dutch Delftware, and then seeing, you know taking a step back and then realizing, because the pieces had been put had been put into the cases, but then sort of visually, you could start to put them back in chronological order and then by type and then by by use.
00:32:53
Speaker
And then you could see although these pieces had been reorganized, they were actually, what they had in common was that they were telling the story of the history of Dutch Delph ware.
00:33:04
Speaker
so So you could just set, and so the in the middle of this group, you know hidden behind you know these giant, you know there's everything there was everything from you know utilitarian pieces, you know large you know large dishes, chargers, bowls, but then just works you know sculptural works. um But this puzzle jug was hidden sort of behind you know behind these chargers and um it was yeah it sent me on my path a path that led to writing this amazing book so what a what a serendipitous event I believe in serendipity. I absolutely do.
00:33:44
Speaker
yeah It's hard to be in this business and and not. Everyone has their stories about these chance encounters that lead to incredible discoveries, coincidences, revelations.
00:33:57
Speaker
It really is one of the things I love about about the antiques field. and
Timeless Appeal of Delftware
00:34:02
Speaker
And so just for my sake and for listeners who maybe like Delftware or are vaguely interested in it, but haven't yet fallen in love in the way that you did and have.
00:34:19
Speaker
Talk to me about the seduction of blue and white, of that tin glaze and cobalt, the colors and and the forms. i mean, what is it that makes these pieces so powerful to you? And and do you think it's the same? Is it hitting...
00:34:38
Speaker
a lover like you in the same way that it that it hit dutch aristocrats in the 17th century or or is it hitting you differently You know, it's it's interesting because it's like you've been, you've probably seen so many objects, you know, from so many different cultures and time periods and styles. But it's interesting that Delftware seems to be universally and sort of has this timeless, you know, obsession, you know, that it's it's the perennial decorative art that, you know,
00:35:11
Speaker
you know, from its inception, its it's struck a chord. And so, yeah, is it, so the question, it's a great question because it's really as layered as the objects themselves.
00:35:22
Speaker
um Because, right, is it the allure of the colors themselves? You know, is it that that deep, rich cobalt I mean, it was fun just, you know, doing research on the history of color for this book because there's some just great quotes from like Goethe who said that basically, and I love this, that he was like, you know, with blue, we have no, we have no power against it. It basically, it's magnetic and draws us in like a force. And I just, you know, I love that quote from him.
00:35:52
Speaker
um And at the same time, you know, Sir Isaac Newton wanted to talk about white, you You know, he was digging in, you know, digging into color. um And he he describes the whiteness is the color of light. Again, this sort of mesmerizing these colors. They both have this incredible pull, which are both used with Chinese porcelain and Dutch doveware. So it's that eternal sort of combination. But is blue and white, you know, is it that it's sort of that soothing, powerful um association that we have with something like, you know, sky and clouds or sea and foam?
00:36:35
Speaker
You know, is it or is it those exotic origins? Does the Delpho remind us of those Chinese, of the Chinese porcelain and that sort of longing we have for, for you know, for the faraway place, the the intangible?
00:36:49
Speaker
But it as it evolved, as Delkware evolves, it becomes this symbol of refined taste um that was available you know from utilitarian wares to the untouchable pieces for um aristocrats like the you know the tulip vases, the towers.
00:37:10
Speaker
But that it, the Delph wear becomes incredibly adaptable to changing fashions. So you see it come back again and again, and that it becomes, it remains relevant and desirable for centuries.
00:37:25
Speaker
um But what's also interesting is the personal bond that people have with Delph wear. It's really interesting. A lot of people come up to me and they want to share a story, a piece that was in their family.
00:37:38
Speaker
They'll bring pieces. You know, when I do talks, they bring pieces from their home to to share it because it's this tangible, it really is, you know, the the the emotional emotional, tangible work of art.
00:37:53
Speaker
And then i think just finally, you know, just when when you walk into a room of Delftware, of blue and white, something in your brain just lights up. I know that feeling very well.
00:38:03
Speaker
I feel it. I think a lot of listeners will relate to that too. And I think that's a ah beautiful note to end on.
Closing Remarks and Book Promotion
00:38:11
Speaker
Genevieve, thank you so much for joining me. The book is out now from Pegasus, Beyond Blue and White, the Hidden History of Delftware and the Women Behind the Iconic Ceramic.
00:38:23
Speaker
ah Genevieve Wheeler-Brown, thank you. Thank you for sharing that story with us. Thank you, Ben, so much. This has been such a pleasure.
00:38:33
Speaker
Today's episode was edited Julian Minerva. Support from the Magazine Antiques editorial team includes senior editor Sarah Stafford-Turner, managing editor Christine Hildebrand, and editorial assistant Irvashi Alele.