Transcript
johngrimsmo: Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining episode 445. My name is John Grimsmo.
John Saunders: My name is John Sotters.
johngrimsmo: And this is the manufacturing podcast where John and John crunch out their business plans and ideas and problems and successes and just stuff that's on our mind running our manufacturing businesses that are now, like mine's like 15 years old now.
John Saunders: Isn't that crazy?
johngrimsmo: Yup.
John Saunders: Yeah. Well, that reminded me of a blurb I saw that I'm assuming the stat is real, but it said, uh, 50% of podcasts don't make it past eight episodes.
John Saunders: So congratulations. We're on episode 445.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, we've done whatever that is 20 times more than that.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. We'll see if this, we'll see if this thing lasts.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, we'll play it. it's been it It hasn't been eight episodes. It's been eight years. Ten, probably.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But i i enjoy chatting with you.
John Saunders: But maybe the,
John Saunders: you know, it's funny because earlier on you and I both had the kind of urge to like figure out like, hey, how do we bring in our friends and guests and like people in the industry? We were so passionate about sharing and learning and you know, we clearly never did. And I think we're better off for it because it's the reason we've had eight years of talking is that like,
John Saunders: You and I put zero effort into this podcast. It's just me and you talking. And then you've got guys like Dylan and now like a plethora of others that have really stepped in and I couldn't, I give him a ton of credit.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: I couldn't at this point begin to do what they do with that format.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, no. Like the interview style format and it's great and we've had guests ask to come on all the time and we just, that's not what we do.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's not what this podcast is and I'm totally okay with that.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Just becomes an an intimate private conversation that nobody listens to between you and me.
John Saunders: Although
John Saunders: yes
John Saunders: What I would love to do, and you can say no to Like really, you can say no, is sometime this year, do something like we did years ago where it's like somebody, I don't even care if it was contest.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: I think we did it as a Patreon thing before. But um if somebody wants to come on and have a quote unquote private conversation, and I always even hesitate to say, ask our advice, like we're qualified to give it.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: But nevertheless, like have a conversation with us. But it is podcast. I'm not against, I think it could be interesting.
johngrimsmo: I'm not against that. It was really fun when we did it before. Didn't we not post it and record it? It was private with the one guy.
John Saunders: think that you're right. think was a reward, it was a private podcast.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. Which I'm not against.
John Saunders: Can we do three ways on this?
johngrimsmo: I don't, I don't know. Probably.
John Saunders: Whatever. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I will think about it. um But it is it is fun. And whenever I talk to other business owners and leaders and stuff, I'm like, either they're asking me questions or I'm asking them all kinds of questions and that's it's fun.
John Saunders: Yes, it really is um
johngrimsmo: So we'll see. but But the core ethos of this podcast is you and I just hashing it out.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: so
John Saunders: Yep. Yep. Um, something I'd struggle with and I'm trying to do better job as it is like this conversation spurs thoughts in my head, but I also need to do a better job of being present and not, I don't, I worry that sometimes I come off as like i'm multitasking you and it's not, it's just me like, Oh, now I need to make a note about this to, um, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: ah Sure. Well, and that's that's why i write things down. I write everything down um because otherwise I'll forget about it.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Well, that's what I started doing. I keep that credit to you. i keep a what do you call your notebooks? Saga notebooks?
johngrimsmo: Pocket book.
John Saunders: Pocketbook.
johngrimsmo: but Yeah.
John Saunders: I've now EDC'd one in my back pocket for for months now.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John Saunders: Like it's got a really good, uh, that's the John Saunders tush right there.
johngrimsmo: Look at that butt shape. Yes.
johngrimsmo: Got some good wear.
John Saunders: Um, but then I also bought a really trashy, um, visor for my car. So, ah so I have a a pen, a pencil and, um, and another Grimsoe notebook up there.
johngrimsmo: Okay. yeah
John Saunders: And cause I don't want to be on my phone like, aside from the legality of texting drive. I just don't want to on it. So now I can, um, pull that out and jot down notes in that. And it works great.
johngrimsmo: Yep, I have absolutely done the lean, pulled out my notebook and like quickly written some down to the stoplight or something like that.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Cool. Okay, on my list today, update on speedio bevels. Quick question on send cut send machining.
John Saunders: Oh yeah.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: That's too funny. had that as a note as well.
johngrimsmo: No way. Field detent issue, which is kind of a big issue. ah Our detent dropper, which we've talked about many years ago, but I can update you on that.
John Saunders: Oh.
johngrimsmo: And then ah Tucker says hi.
John Saunders: Hey, Tuck. Awesome.
johngrimsmo: Tuck and his wife and their new baby Benjamin, two month old, just popped by the shop an hour ago on their way by and said hi.
John Saunders: Oh, fun.
John Saunders: Awesome.
johngrimsmo: So I got to take ah a baby picture and show it to my wife because she always loves seeing baby pictures.
John Saunders: Awesome.
johngrimsmo: She's jealous when I get to hold a baby and she doesn't.
John Saunders: Well, he had DMed me because he saw a of something. So about the Johnny Five build, which I'm assuming would tie into what he's trying to do with his phenomenal Iron Man suit.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: So we're using Maestros, which is a product from Polulu, which has somewhere between eight and 24 servo connections, depending on which size you buy.
John Saunders: And then you can write these little sequences or scripts, which is sort of like, it's just like, it's like stop animation.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: Like you're like, okay, move all the servers to this position, save that scene. Now move them all to this position, save that scene. And then you can play that back and you can add delay delays and accelerations. And so um it's a very simple way.
John Saunders: So for Johnny five, we'll record a scene that'll have him say, move his arms up, move them together, roll his head, twist his torso, look at you and say, your mama was a snowblower. Um, the maestros are how you can pre-record that.
John Saunders: That way you don't have to try to like manipulate joystick controls to replicate that every time from scratch.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And so I don't know, sorry, he stopped Mike cause he was asking me like, I hadn't heard of these and it sounds like he hadn't either.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: They're not expensive and it's fun.
johngrimsmo: That sounds amazing. And in his suit, he's got, I don't know how many servos in his arm, arm flaps and wing flaps and helmet up and down and all this stuff. That's cool.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. Well, on that note, I'll steal the thunder real quick and share that on Sunday, Johnny Five had his kind of like private, what I'm going to call his first ever debut.
John Saunders: We had friends over for the Super Bowl.
johngrimsmo: Oh,
John Saunders: I got everybody around. And Johnny Five is I'm not going to say he's done, but every single thing now functions on him.
johngrimsmo: that's incredible.
John Saunders: Yes. Like every arm, every joint, torso, head, motion, twist, sound, audio.
johngrimsmo: oh
John Saunders: um I need to tweak stuff. I need to fix stuff. I need to change parameters. I need to get some covers, like a few last covers on him. But like at this point, he's there.
John Saunders: And it feels really good to say that.
johngrimsmo: Oh my goodness. Good for you, man.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I can imagine him rolling out with a plate of nachos. like
John Saunders: So it's actually all, uh, I'll, I'll, what's I'll put, I should put up on Institute, or I'll DM you a video after we hang up of showing him.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Okay.
John Saunders: It's pretty fun.
johngrimsmo: Good for you, man.
John Saunders: I'm, I'm yeah. To take a step back and like watch him do that stuff on his own. um i mean, I could have cried. Like I'm being serious. Like it was very awesome. And and to see everybody like yes.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Cause he's not a buckle to bolts anymore. He's this thing.
johngrimsmo: Right, right.
johngrimsmo: That's exciting.
John Saunders: what you got?
johngrimsmo: Oh, I already said my list. What's your list?
John Saunders: Oh, oh, oh, dude, freaking huge win that I'm going to blow your mind with Shelly devices. We'll come back to them. um
johngrimsmo: OK. I don't know what that is.
John Saunders: Greasing pull studs, brother tool life, Mitsutoyu and QC gauges and processes around that, send send machining. and then And then I need to get scratch this one off my list, which is just fiber laser stuff. And then um kind of an open conversation about AI agents.
johngrimsmo: Okay, perfect. Well, jump in with your first one then.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: What's a Shelly thing?
John Saunders: Okay, we the new Haas UMC 400 that we have does not have a coolant shutoff valve near the spindle like every other Haas machine we own has.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: And we used to rotate those to physically close them. That way, if you want to do a hose washdown, you're not getting blasted with the spindle ring coolant.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: um I don't know why this doesn't have it. um Frankly, I didn't ever love them because you always run the risk of leaving it shut off and then you will tend to damage parts and tooling, all that.
John Saunders: And so Grant had the ask of, um can we, build a smart solution for this. So, um, side note, we've done this with solenoids before where when the Z is all the way up, which is of course when it's all the way up, it's not machining.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: When the Z is all the way up, we just automatically shut those lines off of the solenoid. Solenoids suck longterm. They like can overheat and break. I just don't, I don't like them. And you're not going to convince me otherwise. And in this situation, but what we have had a lot of muck luck with are these motorized ball valves.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: OK.
John Saunders: And so when you,
johngrimsmo: Where the the ball itself actually rotates with a motor.
John Saunders: Correct. And in these instances in particular, it's normally open.
johngrimsmo: OK.
John Saunders: So you default or fail with the coolant on. When you apply voltage, it rotates and closes the valve. But what's cool is there's a capacitor inside. So if you kill power to it or something happens, the capacitor will reopen the valve out.
johngrimsmo: Really
John Saunders: So it still fails.
johngrimsmo: safe or NC or NO depending on whatever you're buying.
John Saunders: The device fails in ah in a safe operating mode, which I love.
John Saunders: yeah Well, you can actually buy NC versions as well, but this is an NO version.
johngrimsmo: That's I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly.
John Saunders: Yeah. So what we wanted was a button and I want to push this button and want it to close for 30 seconds or 60 seconds. Now I am on a automation kick right now with UR robots and clicks and home assistant, but I also,
johngrimsmo: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, totally.
John Saunders: want to keep things simple. And so this is the Holy grail. This is a 25 device, $25 device called a Shelly plus one. They make a, to their fault, they make too many variants.
John Saunders: Um, but you buy it, you plug it in, you download the app. It syncs to your phone with the app, um, which you only need to set it up once.
John Saunders: you don't need to keep your phone there.
johngrimsmo: You're creating a routine.
John Saunders: Bingo.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: Um, and in this instance, I just went to a menu. It's like super user friendly and intuitive. And I just said timer. And I said, when the device is powered on automatically turn it off after 60 seconds.
John Saunders: And now when this is powered on and I hit this button, it turns, shuts the cooling off for 60 seconds and then the defaults to open. My next step that I want to do is also to then add a LCD display of the timer so that the user knows where it's at.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Um,
johngrimsmo: Can you drive that from that device?
John Saunders: I believe so.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: um I believe so. And it's just a huge, it's just a huge win.
johngrimsmo: Sick.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's...
John Saunders: And now put this in a printer box and there's no more IOT. There's no cloud. There's no subscription. Done. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: No, that is a direct solution. You don't need anything more complicated. So is it a relay? Is it a solid the state relay?
John Saunders: It's a, it's it's a relay with an E, what is it?
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: The ES32 or ESP32 stuff with the, which is frigging cool.
johngrimsmo: okay Yeah. yeah Which I'm starting to worry more about. Yeah. um Wow. I wonder, yeah, everything's got a voltage cap rating, all that stuff, current rating.
John Saunders: So
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: yeah, this is way inside that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yep Cool.
John Saunders: Well, so total... relevant tangent is I, my wife's garage door opener has never worked well. I get, you have to be super close to it. I don't want to buy a new garage door opener when it works otherwise.
John Saunders: And so I found these things called switch bots, which is a separate company. I believe it's a Shelly device. It looks like one and it, um, we have old garage door openers. So all you have to do is short, like when you push the button on the wall, it just, the, but Literally the button is just shorting two things together and it opens. I believe newer ones have some not rolling codes, but something that makes that more annoyingly complicated to do.
John Saunders: and And the new garage door openers, those people are being turds about like wanting you in their ecosystem to sign up to monthly subscriptions for IoT, which screw that. So SwitchBot,
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um will tie in Siri parallel to be able to open your garage door with your phone. And then it also has a little read switch that you can detect when the door's down or not.
John Saunders: um That's great. I installed it. It worked easy in one night, but here's where it's awesome now. Now, tie you can tie the SwitchBots into Home Assistant.
John Saunders: And now, when I, i'm sorry, I've not done this yet, but I'm going to be doing this tonight. And I know you can do it. When I'm in my car, which means my phone is currently paired to my car, and I'm moving more than five miles an hour, and I'm approaching my house and I get within 400 feet, my garage door automatically opens.
johngrimsmo: Sick. And why not?
John Saunders: Right?
johngrimsmo: It's one of those things like like not going to a gas station.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Like why would you with an electric car, you know?
John Saunders: Yeah, exactly. Yep. So it's just fine.
johngrimsmo: of Of course you want your garage door to open up before you even get there.
John Saunders: Yes. Are
johngrimsmo: I love it.
johngrimsmo: That's cool.
John Saunders: you speedy?
johngrimsmo: i'm gonna I'm going to look up those those Shelly devices. And my version of ESP32, whatever it's called, is Raspberry Pi Pico.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: It's Raspberry Pi's version of that. um So I got one both for vibration sensing, which I've been playing a lot with, learning how to send code to it, all that stuff, and it's been going great.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And then I also have one, it's part of that um that YouTube channel, Diffraction Limited, and their micromanipulator project.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: with ah that the microscope stage, right?
John Saunders: Oh yes! Sick.
johngrimsmo: I bought all this stuff for that, either to make one of those or theoretically to apply that logic to my white light interferometer, because I need one or more motorized accesses.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: Okay. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So I'm going to use the Raspberry Pi Pico to drive the stepper motors, as well as all the lights and all that stuff that I need. So that's what I've been playing with for that. And it's opening my eyes to those kinds of devices.
John Saunders: Can you, okay. Can you remind me and the audience, number one, that what to search for to find that video, but also like this guy, when you watch the video, you realize this guy's like the Robin Renzetti of this world.
John Saunders: Like he's not making this stuff up and what the tolerances or res, the movement repeat,
johngrimsmo: Yeah. So basically, the channel is diffraction limited, and the project is called the micromanipulator project. And basically what he did is he created a very tiny little, probably less than six by six cubed inch device, which can move a tiny little stage.
johngrimsmo: i I forget the distance, 50 millimeters side to side.
John Saunders: Two inches or so, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. um With 10 nanometer precision, something like that.
John Saunders: yeah
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Wait, ne in a current is like one or two microns.
johngrimsmo: Repeatable, no backlash.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. This is a thousand times less than that.
John Saunders: What's the difference between... Wait, a thousand?
johngrimsmo: A nanometer is a thousandth of one micron.
John Saunders: Are you serious?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Oh my God.
johngrimsmo: yeah And so he's he's proving in this video feed that he's moving the stage, maybe it's 50 nanometers. And he's drawing and tracing, like he wrote a program to trace his movements on the screen and leave the path as it moves.
johngrimsmo: And he's tracing a benchy.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: that is like 100 nanometers tall. And it's proving that the the his little manipulator can move the device.
John Saunders: Oh.
johngrimsmo: So it's utilized or could be utilized for a lot of different industries, including microscopy, where you like you put this under a microscope and now you can move your biological sample or whatever to like stupid, and insane precision at full zoom.
John Saunders: Oh, my God.
johngrimsmo: And like there's no backlash, there's no shaking, there's no whatever.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And once I saw that, I was like, I don't know how, but I have to use this, what he's learned into my own project.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Whether I build his thing directly, which I kind of want to, but I don't need to, or i want to use some of that logic on the interferometer that i'm building to get my fringe sweep movements and things like that.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Dude. I remember why I need to rewatch it, but I enjoyed his sort of humility and and self-deprecation when he was even like, think he did something like, Oh, originally I was going to do ball joints here, but then there's, I'm making this like hysteresis and there's fraction resistance to here.
John Saunders: So you want to change it to this and you're like, Oh my gosh, like I can actually follow it. I could never come up with it. It was very well done.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah Yeah. And he's got a great way of explaining that. um
John Saunders: That's cool.
johngrimsmo: Super enjoyable. I love those super nerdy videos that act, especially when they can kind of apply to something I want to do or like, it's fun to watch something cool, but I'm watching it going, oh my goodness, this is my future.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: Like something in here is, yeah, it's really opened my eyes.
John Saunders: Yep. Yeah, yeah, 100%.
johngrimsmo: Um, Yeah, which takes me to like on both the interferometer project and the vision system microscope, which might end up being the same thing eventually. um I want an X, Y gantry table underneath to be able to move a sample side to side and stitch images.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Take a snapshot, move over half an inch, take a snapshot, move over half an inch and stitch the whole file together so that I have a map.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Because the problem with both of those styles of microscope is your your field of view is like less than a a coin you know you can only see a tiny little area.
John Saunders: who
johngrimsmo: And the more you zoom in, the more resolution you get, but the tinier it is.
John Saunders: Oh
johngrimsmo: So at the max zoom of one of my microscopes or one of my lenses, I get like um sixty thousand viewing area
John Saunders: my god.
johngrimsmo: You know like one and a half millimeters squared.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: i don't get to see much, but if you have a stitching table, you can move, scan, move, scan, move, scan, and then automatically compile with OpenCV, automatically compile all the frames, um and then have a full map of a handle or a blade or whatever it is I'm scanning.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So, you're really cool.
John Saunders: Really cool.
johngrimsmo: So, I'm picking away at that still, having a lot of fun with it. But yeah, I've been on a couple couple of deep dives lately of, do I buy an XY, like microscope slide table kind of thing? Do I retrofit one? Do I buy something on eBay and add steppers to it? Do I just make one from scratch? There's a lot of options and all have their upsides and downsides.
johngrimsmo: The like proper ones are thousands of dollars. And I'm like, er part of me just wants to solve the problem, but...
John Saunders: Why not? Why not buy a 30, the Harbor Freight version of this, get it working, knowing that you're, the accuracy is unacceptable, but then you can just, ah like if you break down all these barriers, then you go back and say, okay, now I need to add the.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I have thought about that. Yeah. I've looked at everything on AliExpress. I've looked at everything on Amazon and everything I can find. And just, um I don't know where I want to go with this. So I'm collecting data.
John Saunders: Yeah, fair enough.
johngrimsmo: I might end up just building a little XY slide table myself with a ball screw and stepper motor.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it doesn't need to be like nanometer accurate, but it'd be super sick if it was.
John Saunders: What'll be sick is when you get this working.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. and that's And then what happens is, you know in the evenings, I go so deep down that rabbit hole, I'm like, I will need XY movement maybe 10% of the time that I actually want to use this this machine.
John Saunders: Like, don't, don't this, don't be wrong way, but like.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: There's no point putting tons of my effort into that 10% now, when that 90% of value from it is having just scanning one image and having that done.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So let's get that working first.
John Saunders: Thank Yes. Yes. Like Johnny five, his, his eyes don't have full left to right range of motion. And it bothers me because I know they could.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: I'm like, John, no, number one, no one's going even notice. And number two, like it's there, no one else, like one other person the U S has built this thing. No, one's going to be like, Oh, that thing looks like you really cut the corner on that.
John Saunders: And you just realize like, and I, but I had to tell myself it's okay. I write it down on my longterm, like things I could come back to list and then move on, get the damn thing finished.
johngrimsmo: yeah but that could that could put you back two months if you really cared if you did that first right
John Saunders: 100%. Yeah. yeah
johngrimsmo: both with thee the confusion delay of like, I don't i don't know how to solve it yet, so I'm not done yet, but also the the time actually doing it.
John Saunders: Well, and there's also, you don't know what battles you're going to face. Like, i don't know what the details are of this project, but clearly that's like, it's a pretty complicated project because you've got software, hardware, coding, um, analysis and like, sure.
johngrimsmo: It's like all new to me.
John Saunders: If, if everything else went great, then in like three days of working on the project, you might come back and fix the X, Y table. But the reality is you might realize actually what I need to be spending my time on is this open CV code that I need to hire an Upwork CS guy to help me, whatever, you know what i mean?
johngrimsmo: Well, not anymore, but yeah.
John Saunders: Touche.
johngrimsmo: um But but the the caveat is as I'm building the whole system, I can build like all the mechanical device for an X, Y table.
John Saunders: That actually is funny.
johngrimsmo: So part of my lizard brain just goes, yeah, but if you plan for it now, you don't have to like finish it, but at least the design is capable of having an X, Y table like like mechanically fit and all that stuff.
johngrimsmo: Or I just build it however I can quickly do it to have results, and then I'll have to rebuild it later, which is probably fine, but i don't know
John Saunders: Dude, I'm, I'm, you and I are different and that's a good thing. Like, and I love you cause you will do your own way and you're stubborn in that way, but like get it working, knowing that you're going to get it working.
johngrimsmo: know. Yeah.
John Saunders: You're going to realize how freaking awesome this is. And then you're going to still tweak it. So, you know, you're going to tweak anyways, just get working. Who cares?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: Like do the Harbor freight table. Um, that's a metaphor.
johngrimsmo: yes totally but there is lots of stuff on Amazon that can do various things or AliExpress or whatever yeah and we talked about several weeks ago I did do like a static fringe test and I saw fringes and I was able to scan and I was able to like sweep fringes across the park by letting the putty like ooze down and that was like a huge huge win and I needed that I needed that yeah
John Saunders: Do not use Harbor freight table, but you know what i mean
John Saunders: Yes, you needed this. Yeah, for sure.
johngrimsmo: And now it's like, okay, now I know I can do it.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And that actually taught me a lot of the precision required to like properly do this. So it's it's like, oh, this needs to be more accurate than i than a slapdash thing. Like if I actually want this easy, it needs to be very accurate. So
John Saunders: Yeah. Makes sense. but I love it. and Like you will, it's kind this is going to sound silly, but like, this is one of those projects you you have to believe in yourself. like you will do this, John.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, totally. And I have to continue to allow myself to do it because there's a million things pulling me in a million directions and deep in my core. I'm telling you, yeah, almost almost every day at work, I wish I had it.
johngrimsmo: I wish I had i wait i had the interferometer.
John Saunders: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It would answer questions. It would solve problems. um It's like our microscope on a million times steroids. It will just tell us what's happening on these features. It'll let me zoom in and see features that are too shiny or too ah small or something like that that are causing us problems.
John Saunders: Well, let's talk through that. If you took a week a week sabbatical from work, locked yourself in a room.
johngrimsmo: then
johngrimsmo: There's some stuff I gotta buy, which I could preparatory purchase. I'm itchy trigger finger to get that done. um
John Saunders: Thanks for pulling that phrase back out of storage.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah. ah Yeah, I'm close.
John Saunders: But could you think you could do it in a week?
johngrimsmo: I think so. If I had all the components, there's not a lot left. In the past few nights I have been, finalizing that list of you know the minimum. like Either I make this whole Z-axis myself from scratch, or I just buy one on Amazon for 300 bucks, and it actually looks really, really nice.
johngrimsmo: I'm like, I can just, it is.
John Saunders: The Z axis is separate from the XY grid table. Okay.
johngrimsmo: And there's a lot of reasons.
John Saunders: What do you need a Z for?
johngrimsmo: ah
John Saunders: Focus?
johngrimsmo: ah Focus.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: So the, one of the lenses that I have has zoom built in, which is really cool. And when you zoom in, like when you're fully zoomed out, you have to be 0.8 inches away from the object. When you're fully zoomed in, you have to be five inches away from the object.
John Saunders: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
johngrimsmo: So I do need a Z to be able to do that and different height objects, things like that. I just need the room.
John Saunders: PSA, the like insane, insane high-power rifle shooters have said, and this is beyond my expertise in shooting, but variable power scopes change their reticle accuracy as you zoom in and out.
John Saunders: Even like end of the road, $4,000 or $5,000 scope. So um knowing that you're like numerous time factors, higher accuracy requirements, just something to think about.
johngrimsmo: Absolutely. And I will be able to calibrate at different zoom levels.
John Saunders: Okay, there you go.
johngrimsmo: but But you're right, I'll probably get different accuracy or different values. without tweaking at different zoom levels, but I have a calibration thing that is, yeah, exactly.
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: That's right. Okay, that's cool.
johngrimsmo: Oh yeah.
John Saunders: So the really, really crude, let's just say you have a 3D printer XY base table that moves your part around. and You have a telescope on top of it looking at the part. The telescope has a digital output that goes to a computer of some sort.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: And then that goes to software which analyzes it.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Is it quote unquote that simple?
johngrimsmo: And the parts you're missing are the beam splitter, the a white light LED light source, and a reference mirror.
John Saunders: Why do you use have to split and being split in mirror?
johngrimsmo: That's the whole point that's the whole point of a white light interferometer is to do those things.
John Saunders: Oh, cause the white light of photographer is measuring. You're not just measuring based on reading a picture.
johngrimsmo: No, your that's vision system.
John Saunders: Sorry, I'm confused. I'm conflating your two projects again.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I know, I know. I know.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So vision system is with the white background, the light, and you just see a profile outline profile, right?
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Like a watch gear or something like that.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: And honestly, I'm not really, I have that. I'm not really using it much. I don't need that.
John Saunders: So nothing you said on this podcast today had to do with the vision system?
johngrimsmo: Correct. All interferometer.
John Saunders: Oh my God. Okay. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Thank you.
johngrimsmo: um So it's complicated, but
John Saunders: But aren't the vision, the vision system has the seen the fringes, isn't it?
johngrimsmo: no.
John Saunders: Oh, it is the white light.
johngrimsmo: The vision system is just seeing the black and white profile outline of a watch gear and being able to measure features, things like that.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: yeah Yeah. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, the vision system is scanning fringes across the part and making a topographical height map.
John Saunders: Hold on, you said vision system is doing that.
johngrimsmo: Dang it, you're right, the interferometer.
John Saunders: Thank you. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Thank you. I didn't even catch that. Is scanning fridges across the part, creating a topographical hype map, which you bring into a software and can zoom in and get get literal nanometer level Z precision and micron XY position, depending on your zoom level.
John Saunders: okay
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Okay. That's just insanely cool.
johngrimsmo: Yep. And I can do both in the same setup if I build it right. Vision and um it's like really, really cool.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I've actually had quite a few people me and email me about the vision system and they're like, please tell me how you do that because I could use that, especially watch guys use it all the time or want it.
John Saunders: Yeah. i I will agree with all that. I tried to tell you that before, like what you're on to something here, John, i don't know if it's what something going want to productize, but you're onto something.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Probably not, but but it is cool.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But I'm happy to show people how I do it and if anybody wants to take it on,
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: They can do it too.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Because I'm only learning from the shoulders of giants before me kind of thing, but.
John Saunders: Fair enough.
John Saunders: Yeah. We are going to do a five minute YouTube video on the Shelly device for Haas as well. So we, the same thing, like to each their own, but like, I want to make sure people just see exactly the bill materials, how to do it.
johngrimsmo: Sick. That'll be good.
John Saunders: And for sure, like quote unquote open source, that type of the thing.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: We're also going to do it for our brother auto door, which actually lights out, asks us if we'd be willing to do it as a favor to them. but I want to show how we do the brother door.
johngrimsmo: Great. All right, your turn.
John Saunders: No, dude, we haven't even gotten to your, you have four things on your list.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, that wasn't even my list yet.
John Saunders: We haven't even started them. It's fine. Speedio Bevels, all you.
johngrimsmo: Speedio pedals. We've been talking about that for weeks and weeks, seeing good progress. um The i was telling you about in the WhatsApp chat, the, um, our laser, our bloom laser was given weird results.
johngrimsmo: I maybe it was airing out or something. I missed it, but my operator, Steve said, so they took the shutters off. They cleaned the glass lenses where the laser beams come out and is red and stuff. You clean that with isopropyl and little wipes and stuff, put it back together and got significantly different diameter measurements on our grinding wheel, like, like three thousands.
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, no.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And That concerns me because the way I did my calibration routine, I calibrated the laser first, then I probed G54, then I probed and then I did thermal comp and all that stuff.
John Saunders: Uh,
johngrimsmo: And now I'm not trusting it as much.
johngrimsmo: I
John Saunders: dude, was it as simple as the mirrors? Like they moved the mirrors though when they cleaned them?
johngrimsmo: don't know. I don't know. But after cleaning, we did not recalibrate, which we probably should. um
johngrimsmo: So point is for a day there, it made our bevels weird and it kicked the laser wheel diameter outside of my limits of like, was greater than 4,000 or 2,000. Uh, ignore it, ignore the change.
johngrimsmo: And now I don't know what to trust. So I need to go in there with calipers and literally met like with a mic and measure the actual physical wheel diameter. I need to clean and recalibrate the laser properly.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Do you have a, um, 30 taper, gauge length tool that has a known diameter?
johngrimsmo: Yes, yeah we do.
John Saunders: So you'd put that in, put it, that in and see what the laser measures that are at.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Exactly. And I haven't done that yet, but I need to do that.
John Saunders: Okay. Sorry. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Do that. Maybe you might be overthinking it. Maybe just
johngrimsmo: I'm definitely overthinking it, but it we made some bad parts. And it's because of something, and I'm trying to nail down exactly what that is and build a process around avoiding it, um which is very important.
John Saunders: totally.
johngrimsmo: And because i i can't expect or assume that the operator will understand all my complicated like reasons for why it's doing the thing. He just goes, I just don't know.
johngrimsmo: I know it's not doing the thing.
John Saunders: Well, but even having a a shop culture and a shop like actual process or understanding of like, at the end of the day, what is a quarter inch? Like, where do we get a quarter inch from?
John Saunders: um And we're not perfect at this. We're we're we're good, we're not perfect. Cause it's like, wait a we have a Speroni. Every machine has a tool setter. Like what's the what's the length of a tool?
John Saunders: If they're off, it's off by seven tenths, which one are we treating as sacred and
johngrimsmo: Yeah. what's What's the master? Yep.
John Saunders: um That was ironically kind of on my list today of like, we don't we don't send out hand tools to be calibrated.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. It's a deep, deep question.
John Saunders: I'm not defending that, we just don't.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. We don't either.
John Saunders: but um Should we, should we even, even internally, should we go take a couple of master gauges that are not ever used except for twice a year to check these? And I'm, I think that's a better, so there's some hubris in like self-checking your tools, I know, but like, um, if you're not doing anything, that's probably better.
John Saunders: um it would be pretty catastrophic if we had a set of mics that was eight tenths off at a certain diameter, which could happen from where or whatever, like that wouldn't be good.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: So know.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah It's, it's building a level of trust around whatever the numbers they're giving you. And as we've heard from our friends, we've seen it ourselves. Even a CMM will give you the numbers you want if you do it that way.
John Saunders: Yeah, that's funny.
johngrimsmo: And it's dangerous, you know?
John Saunders: Yeah. What was your send cut send machining question or comment?
johngrimsmo: um So I've heard about Senkatsen. I've never actually used Senkatsen for sheet metal, but I want to one day.
John Saunders: Oh,
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I know. um And I know they're building up their machining thing. I saw a couple of the YouTube videos that are fantastic of them just kind of shop talking about all the MAMs they're buying. and what they're building and what they're making and stuff. And I kind of like some of the constraints that they're putting on it. They're like, dude, we only make aluminum and our tolerances are plus or minus five thou. And we don't take a drawing and we'll just make you to print with that tolerance. And if it sucks, we'll make another one. like So that was kind of cool. So it got me thinking about some of the interferometer project and some of the other things that will take some machining. And I'm like, dude, I could do this, but like, honestly, my time is pretty scarce right now and also valuable.
johngrimsmo: And, this bracket that I need to make, it's not designed yet. So I just kind of threw a cube into Fusion and put some holes in it and like, you know, made a fake part and uploaded it to SendCutSendMachining just to see what it would cost.
johngrimsmo: i was kind of shocked at how expensive it was.
John Saunders: It was, yeah.
johngrimsmo: And that's probably because I don't buy parts from people. I make stuff myself and I don't, I don't properly value my own shopperate for making these things. I'm trying to, but, but yeah it was like hundreds of dollars and i was like, Oh, i don't know if I want to do that.
John Saunders: So they, um, that will get better with time because they'll become more competitive and as they learn.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And obviously if you're doing volume, it gets better, but I did the same thing.
johngrimsmo: Totally.
John Saunders: We had a QC gauge. i was like, see what Senk Sen would cost. was It was $450 for a part that I would have, I would have spent, I would have said yes at like 150, but not much more than that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Right.
johngrimsmo: Now that's, I realize their auto pricing simulator, like if you have a corner radius and not a chamfer or not, like everything matters and there's probably a game to play there, like how to de-feature your part to make it cheaper.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: I gave up pretty quick, but interesting.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: What, um, the, the numbers I want to share are less about manufacturing, more about just business respect. And they shared this in one of their YouTube videos. So somebody go look this up. Cause I, if I misquoted it, it wasn't my intent, but.
John Saunders: um Sencut Sen is a sheet metal company. Yes, they we'll come back to machining, but they have three facilities in the US with fiber lasers that are running 24 seven, sheet feeding, all these different sizes of material. I think they have water jet and tube lasers and other stuff too, but like they're primarily, you need your typical like shelf bracket made,
John Saunders: I can upload it from fusion with drilled holes, corner radius. Then they can anodize it. If it's aluminum, they can powder coat it. Like it's insane.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Um, they have now shipped and this is the quote. I don't remember. It was either 30 million or 50 million parts.
johngrimsmo: Oh my goodness.
John Saunders: Yes. um And their machining, which is like brand new, like they just got all these MAMs. They have a bunch of brother you have hundreds They have some Haas machines as well, but like MAMs are for sure a big part of it.
John Saunders: um They have already shipped 10,000 parts.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I heard that.
John Saunders: Okay. you Now I don't think that's unique parts, but still.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Sure, but whatever. I was like, okay, so they're not they're not brand new at this.
John Saunders: well
johngrimsmo: And clearly the guys they're hiring to run this like have done this before in other places.
John Saunders: Well, that yes, and they're just, they're playing for keeps. Like this is not some like, well, we're gonna dip our toe in carefully.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: They're like, oh, but buckle up.
johngrimsmo: No, they basically said, we're going to be the best best price in America and import parts, we're coming for you.
John Saunders: Well, yeah, and like, they're gonna devastate some of the low hanging fruit job shop work.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: But like, it's kind of like AI, like don't kill the messenger. Like I'm just here to say what I'm seeing.
johngrimsmo: yeah exactly
John Saunders: um Cause it's just like sheet metal. We have sheet metal shops in town. For me to walk in there and be like, hey, I want two of these brackets like even on a good day, a nice guy, they're like, what do they want to, what why do they want to talk to me for a $73 order?
johngrimsmo: yeah right yeah well I'm very much looking forward to meeting him at the mammoth summit and kind of here I've never talked to him so everybody has to say
John Saunders: plus they're probably not going to power code them and all that. So I give Jim Belosek and the team there a ton of credit for the vision they had. um right
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah, agreed. The blurb I wanted to share was I couldn't believe 10,000 parts because I don't know him. I've talked to a few times, but like and I know a couple of guys on the team there, and um they were taught asking about selling their scrap because they're now producing so much that they didn't want to sell it as recycled scrap. And so they've started a company called Banana Metals where they're selling all their chunks of 6061.
John Saunders: They're only machining 6061 at the moment, but now you can just buy all their scraps from them.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: They're integrating that with toolpath. So if you have a part in toolpath and it has a banana parts metal, you can just click and buy it through that. Actually, that may not be public yet. So oops, but oh oh well, um, crazy, right?
John Saunders: Like super cool.
johngrimsmo: That's cool.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. It's awe inspiring to see and relatively in like the past five years is the entire, the entirety of Zen Cut Zen is six years old, I think. don't know.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's it's wild.
John Saunders: I mean, good. It reminds me, like, I'm proud of our team. I'm proud of what we do I love, but like, I remember a friend needed help four five years ago in his company getting parts made. And I was like, oh, I think I have another shop that could maybe help you. And he, I think I've told his story. He came back to me and he oh no, we already ordered them 50,000 at a time.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, that's right.
John Saunders: and this was this was domestic predictive domestic production. And I was like, oh, oh I'm sorry. i'm so I kind of like just put my tail between my leg and and excuse myself from the conversation.
johngrimsmo: yeah That's a different world.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And yeah, I think about that with a company that went from zero to three locations selling tens of millions of dollars a year, or whatever, I have no idea. um In six years, it was built for keeps like from the start, like it's different than yours and my businesses.
johngrimsmo: You know, i i I do tend to think about how we could scale our business, you know, 10x kind of thing.
John Saunders: yeah
johngrimsmo: And it sounds nothing but painful. Like,
John Saunders: Just different. I mean, you and I are, i think entrepreneurial tradesmen and craftsmen. Like I said, we still want to have some proximity. I don't, I think I've asked you this on air and certainly privately, like you don't want to become a Spyderco.
John Saunders: You don't want to have 33,000 of the new Norseman or the new Grimmshaw product being sold at you know, sharper image.
johngrimsmo: no
johngrimsmo: No, no, definitely. And there's, there's levels of that future that I do want. I definitely want to scale. I definitely want to grow. I want to do more. I want to have a bigger impact. I want to do that, but I don't need to make a hundred thousand lives a year.
johngrimsmo: So where, why, why am I saying that? What is the limit? Like, what do I, you know, it's always quality or value to the customer.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Make what we want, all those things. And then what is the vision that keeps everybody happy that, you know, accomplishes all the goals.
John Saunders: The philosophical view that I think is worth both of us keeping, not on top of mind, but present as we're, you know, we're halfway through our working careers or something of the sorts, you know, in our mid 40s, young 40s, like,
John Saunders: that's a healthy hunger that can get flipped into a chase. Like you'll, at the end of the day, you don't want to look back and be like, wow, I should have been more, don't take this wrong.
John Saunders: I may not have the best words here. should have been happier with what you had in the present, right? Like, i don't mean to say you're not happy, but like,
johngrimsmo: right yeah so
John Saunders: Like John, you are living the dream in so many other people's eyes. Like you are, like, look, you walk into your shop, get this team of people making these beautiful products, you're shipping them all over the world regularly with phenomenal sales numbers with a brand and you're going to mammoth to speak and be involved or be involved in these, like it's, this is the life.
John Saunders: Like sometimes you gotta stop and realize like, oh, this is it in a good way and in kind of an anticlimactic way, this is it.
johngrimsmo: the dream yeah
johngrimsmo: yes yeah but I'm not done yet i have more microscopes to build yeah exactly all what do you got next
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah, build them
John Saunders: them. Yep. Okay. I got to check this one off the list. I just, the note that I'd written down, um, that's been over few episodes was fiber laser plus the UR robots.
John Saunders: We've not done this yet. Um, there's nothing particularly complicated about it. The internal team discussion was let's stop engraving. Um, we can engrave and we have engraved tens of thousands of products for years.
johngrimsmo: machine like end mill engrave.
John Saunders: Um, Endmill engrave usually just our logo. um We do it with YG1 double zero carbide spot drills.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: It looks great.
johngrimsmo: OK. Yeah.
John Saunders: it's They're very inexpensive and they work great and they tend to fail they tend to not dull, but rather fail in it, which is a good thing um in my opinion, but um engraving is still pain in the butt. It's slow, it's it's inconsistent. um And so the plan would be to have a fiber laser, which you can buy for or three grand, and the product would then be pulled out of the,
John Saunders: brother S700, which is obviously already happening. And then there's a smorgasbord of downstream processes that could happen, including ultrasonic, including the laser, including degreaser, rust preventative, and then stacked in the product bin, if not fully assembled by the by the thing.
johngrimsmo: Right. Sure. Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: And so with lasering, not only can we then I think do our our logo faster, not taking up spindle time and with a more consistent look, but there's a ton of other things I think are interesting, whether it's engraving QR codes or product instructions or Easter eggs.
John Saunders: like um So I don't know how you would actually like the cycle start on them. The robot could literally hit the green cycle start button, but there's probably a better way.
John Saunders: So I don't have i don't know why i wrote this down.
johngrimsmo: hu
John Saunders: don't have punchline other than that's the goal.
johngrimsmo: I remember Dave precise built something like that. Like ring comes out of the Willamon gets auto laser engraved and then done kind of thing.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So i maybe chat with him if you need some ideas, but it's clearly possible. I remember him saying, especially with the Willamon, it was not easy. Like a 20 year old Willamon integrating the Willamon to the UR to the laser, something about that.
johngrimsmo: He's like, it was, it was not fun, but he did it.
John Saunders: Yeah, I don't, I'll ask i'll talk to him.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: i I have zero, like, I think I could have this working by in the next three hours if I wanted to. Like, it's not that, it's just not hard.
johngrimsmo: eight
John Saunders: um Well, okay. feel detent.
johngrimsmo: so scrapped 30 blades and it's all my fault. and i had to I had to break that to the team and I definitely saw some somber heads at that time because everybody put so much work into all these blades.
John Saunders: I'm sorry.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Oh, you scrapped them when they were like finished, finished.
johngrimsmo: in at the end, pretty much, like hard milling.
John Saunders: Oh, I'm sorry.
johngrimsmo: And then a lot of them weren't caught until they went to finishing and some of them were being sharpened or putting together. And they're like, why aren't these putting together properly? And it all stemmed down to updating an end mill.
johngrimsmo: That's all I did. um I changed, I was using a 1 16th DeBoer end mill for hard milling, this one little feature. It worked okay. But being in an ER collet, it had a little bit of run out.
johngrimsmo: And so of the two flutes, only one was doing most of the work. And it's not a proper hard milling end mill. And we're cutting like 62 Rockwell like steel. um So it worked. But I have these nice YG1 hard milling end mills that I really, really like now. And they're four flute. And I can put them in a RegalFix holder. And so I just...
johngrimsmo: and And their metrics, not inch, even though they're very close. So I like did it all right. I reprogrammed it properly. Got my speeds and feeds, you know what's working. Put it in the Regal holder. No run out. All better, all better, right?
johngrimsmo: And then I just sent it. And then i like I made one. I was like, sweet, it worked. The depth is right. Everything's good. um I didn't check the form because it's a little 3D taper wall that it's doing. I didn't check the form. And I didn't do a fit check of like in the knife, which is what this feature does.
johngrimsmo: And I was like, sweet. And then I moved on. And then 30 blades got made, sent up, tumbled, stonewashed, some sharpened, some finished, and they're not going together properly. And I'm like, oh my gosh. It took me a while to actually figure out what happened. And looking at the two end mills side by side under the microscope, the old one has a long neck.
johngrimsmo: So it's like long and vibratey and it's not a proper hard milling tool. So it's probably moving more than it's cutting. And the new one is stubbier, sharper, and it's a hard milling tool.
johngrimsmo: So it's overcutting comparatively.
John Saunders: Yeah, it's making a bigger feature.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. And we're talking less than a thou difference, probably a final result, maybe more. I don't know. I don't have a number for you, but looking at the two tools, you're like, oh, that one's wiggling.
johngrimsmo: This one's stubby and cutting properly. So that's why I'm over cutting now. So all they need to do is rechange geometry for the new tool and set the world straight.
johngrimsmo: But when you overcut, you can't put material back. So there's a bunch of ways that we have to like call and be like, no, this doesn't do what we need it to do.
johngrimsmo: And it's, it's failed this feature.
John Saunders: I'm sorry.
johngrimsmo: So I'm fine learning my lesson. I feel really bad, you know, putting everybody's hard work down the tube and puts us behind. And in order to catch up is like a lot of work for more of us.
John Saunders: Everybody.
johngrimsmo: and So I'm, I'm talking about this with the team and I'm obviously apologizing, but also like talking about the gravity of ah of a thing like this and lessons I'm learning and things like that. And I told them, I was like, guys, as much as I try to like balance my own checkbook here and like make sure I'm doing everything right, I i missed the one step where we take a step back and do a test fit and be like, the change I made made a geometrical difference.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And that's a problem.
John Saunders: I'm assuming that when you change it to, or you just weren't even thinking about it being an issue, right? Like,
johngrimsmo: I assumed, you know, going to infrometric, I knew that. I toolpathed it different infusion. It's now a metric tool, you know. I didn't think about really enough that a non-hard milling tool to a hard milling tool and a long tool to a stubby tool, those are the two variables I missed, you know?
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: This is the current.
johngrimsmo: So this is in this video.
John Saunders: Got it. I'm sorry. That sucks.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it happens. i'm I'm sharing so that we can all learn from it.
John Saunders: No, I, yeah.
johngrimsmo: yeah. but Yeah,
John Saunders: Well, like, it doesn't feel good for me to like sit here and critique it. Cause first off, we're guilty of the same sort of thing.
johngrimsmo: yeah.
John Saunders: Like you you don't know what you don't know. Obviously if you were like, oh, this change will probably have a significant tolerance feature. Like I'm just too lazy to bother fit checking it. Like that's not you.
johngrimsmo: Right.
John Saunders: So I don't know what the lesson is like.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. I missed it. That's all it is. Yep.
John Saunders: How big, what's the feature look like? is so Is a pocket for a ball to fit into?
johngrimsmo: Did you, it's a pocket for the button. um and don't know if you saw the Instagram video I put up the other day. That was like a few minutes long where you should watch it.
John Saunders: Yeah, sorry.
johngrimsmo: It was really, I put a lot of work into it um where I have the little grind.
John Saunders: Is it a story?
johngrimsmo: It's a post. It's like a reel.
John Saunders: Oh, okay. I'll go check it out.
johngrimsmo: So I have this grinding wheel that I ground down a button, fjell button, so I can visually see a cool feature.
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And there's a close-up of the knife um of this this pocket in the blade that the button interacts with. That's the feature I'm machining in this conversation.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Okay. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Basically, your detent pocket that keeps the knife closed and is accurate and, yeah.
John Saunders: You're probably going to like reach through the screen and punch me, but it's not worth making 30 buttons that have a seven tenths larger diameter. Not worth it.
johngrimsmo: Correct. And not worth it.
John Saunders: Yeah. Sorry. That really stinks.
johngrimsmo: I mean, it's it's an argument for sure, but I i dislike having weirdness out there.
John Saunders: I know. I know.
johngrimsmo: You know, there's like 30 weird ones out there.
John Saunders: I know. I know.
johngrimsmo: We got track that or not. or i like consistency. Like the button is the button. Everything else moves around the button.
John Saunders: I know.
johngrimsmo: So.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah, it stinks. I'm sorry.
johngrimsmo: so Lesson learned, I think.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Hmm.
John Saunders: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: What else you got?
John Saunders: Uh... Kind of a funny one. um We have a Lex maintenance task to grease the pull stud draw bar section of Haas mills, I think all the machines.
John Saunders: And from memory over the years, this is a slightly controversial topic. And I believe there's a lot of guidance that says the draw bar systems are meant to run dry or not lubed. um And it's one of those things you hear from, you hear different opinions from different people and it's hard to know quote unquote who's right.
johngrimsmo: Sure, yeah.
John Saunders: But the thought that occurred to me is like, if they, there's definitely literature that sort of says this machine from a Haas standpoint is meant to run dry. And so adding grease doesn't always mean it's a good thing, not only because it's meant to run dry, but also the grease can can trap and um further spread a contamination and wear and so forth.
John Saunders: And so the fact that we, there was a discussion about like how to split up that maintenance task between users or one person and all that. And I said, guys, I'm seeing, i did a quick check through stuff. I'm like, I'm seeing comments to say not to do this.
John Saunders: And so we had a discussion about it. You want to kind of like make sure you're not steamrolling through it. I'm like, if anybody feels different, like I'm open to it. the
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: Some of the Haas machines before have made us sound like the tool is snapping out, but I think that has more to do with relatively minor Z height or tool changer arm calibration alignment issues.
John Saunders: And we know how to fix that now if it happens.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: So the thought was, okay, let's take that. Let's delete that as a maintenance task. Let's put a moat in our calendar six months later to revisit it. And obviously if something happens in the meantime where we think we do need to start doing it, we'll come back to it.
John Saunders: But you know, the, the sort of joke, like the leanest thing to do is just get rid of the process.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah That's a good phrase. Put a moat in the calendar. i've never heard that.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. We do that a lot.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Uh, what else you got
johngrimsmo: um ah I'll save Detentropper for next week.
John Saunders: got? Okay. Fair enough. Um, too, then I got one more thing that I'll save. Um, anything else?
johngrimsmo: Other than that, what are you up to today?
John Saunders: I am finishing. go to design a little three d box for the Shelly device. um And then I have a ah ton of little quality of life things.
John Saunders: but Sorry, nothing. i'm looking at my list. Nothing exciting.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: Really. Sorry. um I wanted to talk to but Lights Out guys about what they want. Because they'd asked us to do a Brother Door video because I think they want to... If people want to do that, they want to just be like, go watch Saunders' video. So i want to, like, I put together a idea.
John Saunders: Normally we don't ever do this with these. We just do our own videos, but here I'm be like, okay, I'm going to show actually coincidentally the one bracket you need comes from send, cut, send.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: And then there's a McMaster part for the actuator. And then Grant and I, ro sorry, not Grant, i Grant added a really cool click PLC open, close door panel thing, which you don't have to do, but is frigging awesome.
John Saunders: So yeah, we want to show that as well.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, icing on the cake, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Circle.
John Saunders: When I want to do that video, have them see it and be like, Oh, we actually wanted you to show whatever, something else. So, um, yeah. How about you?
johngrimsmo: Good. I've got to talk with my with Steve who runs the Speedio update. Remember I told you about my Python program that like lets me visualize all the deprint data?
John Saunders: Yes. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Super sick. It's been absolutely amazing lately. Deprinting more and more data and being able to just sort it and sift it and graph it and like see so see charts and line graphs instantly and compare values. Oh, it's been so helpful to see what is happening because he told me yesterday, he's like, this video is being weird. I don't know what it is. And then, so last night at home, i was able to dig through all the data and like, Oh, clearly on February 5th, huge shift in diameter. And I have to go ask him now, like, is that the day we clean the the laser sensors? Cause I'm seeing like a huge shift in several pieces of data
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, okay, that's when it got weird. And then I can see you move this number to bring it back into line, this offset. And okay, so you compensated it for it while making a few scrap blades to fix whatever the problem was.
johngrimsmo: And then you it's holding now. And yeah, so gotta have that conversation. And then I gotta work on that hard milling of the 30 fail blades.
John Saunders: Oh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: I need to to figure out exactly how much to move that feature in CAD so that it is machining on size now.
John Saunders: Is it just a diameter or is it location?
johngrimsmo: It's both its diameter location and a 3d feature.
John Saunders: okay. So it's hard. It's not an obvious hard gauge deltronix pin type thing.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Even CMMing it maybe with the tiniest little eight thou ball. Um, so fit checking, fit checking in the knife kind of tells a lot.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So yeah, that's okay.
John Saunders: we do yeah Yeah. I'm sorry. It sucks.
johngrimsmo: So move forward.
John Saunders: Cool.
johngrimsmo: right, man.
John Saunders: See you next week.
johngrimsmo: See you next week.
John Saunders: Take care.
johngrimsmo: Bye.
