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Episode 129—Lisa D’Apolito Talks ‘Love, Gilda’, Her Connection to Gilda Radner, and Documentary Film as Discovery
129 Plays6 years ago
"You're whole life adds up to who you are," says filmmaker Lisa D'Apolito. This is of course The Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I talk to bad-ass writers, filmmakers, and producers about the art and craft of telling true stories whereby I unpack their artist journey and tap into their routines and habits about doing the work. This week for Ep. 129 is Lisa D’Apolito, the mastermind behind the brilliant documentary Love, Gilda about the legendary comedian and comedic actor Gilda Radner. We talk about her early life growing in Greenwich Village, her transition from acting to filmmaking, and what really drew her to Gilda Radner. Thanks to Goucher College's MFA in Nonfiction and Creative Nonfiction Magazine for making this show possible. Of course you can follow the show in myriad places. It’s on Twitter @CNFPod and @BrendanOMeara. If you have any questions or things you’re struggling with in your work, shoot me a note. Be sure to share the show across your platforms to help grow our little community and go subscribe to my newsletter at brendanomeara.com.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction & Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
The Creative Nonfiction Podcast is sponsored by Goucher College's Master of Fine Arts in Nonfiction. The Goucher MFA is a two-year, low residency program. Online classes let you learn from anywhere, while on-campus residencies allow you
00:00:15
Speaker
to hone your craft with accomplishmenters who have pulled surprises and best-selling books to their names. The program boasts a nationwide network of students, faculty, and alumni. Which has published 140 books and counting, you'll get opportunities to meet literary agents and learn the ins and outs of the publishing journey.
00:00:38
Speaker
Visit goucher.edu forward slash nonfiction to start your journey now.
Host's Concert Experience
00:00:44
Speaker
Take your writing to the next level and go from hopeful to published in Goucher's MFA program for nonfiction. By the time you hear this I might be legally deaf. Why? Because two days ago I saw.
00:01:13
Speaker
I sure as hell hope I don't get sued for that. How about some music I actually paid for?
00:01:22
Speaker
Yes, I saw my home team play for two massive hours. My wife told me that I had to wear earplugs on account of the damage I've done to my ears in the past 38 years. I did not tell her, but I took one of them out. I'm as bad as I want to be. My ears already ring all day, so...
00:01:43
Speaker
whatever it's driving me to the brink of insanity as is what's another two hours of pulse pounding ten panic membrane reducing Metallica anyway
00:01:56
Speaker
You probably want to know who's on the show this week. It's of course why you tune in.
Guest Introduction: Lisa Dappolito
00:02:00
Speaker
This is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast. You know, the show where I talk to badass writers, filmmakers, and producers about the art and craft of telling true stories whereby I unpack their artist journey and tap into the routines and habits about doing the work. This week for episode 129 is Lisa Dappledo.
00:02:25
Speaker
The mastermind behind the brilliant documentary Love Gilda about the legendary comedian and comedic actor, Gilda Radner.
Lisa's Creative Upbringing
00:02:35
Speaker
We talk about Lisa's early life growing up in Greenwich Village, her transition from acting to filmmaking in what really drew her to Gilda Radner. If that sounds at all intriguing, that's what we do here at CNF Pod HQ. Consider subscribing to the show wherever you get your podcasts and follow me and the show on Twitter, at Brendan O'Mara and at CNF Pod.
00:03:01
Speaker
It's another little playpen of the internet where we hang out and talk about this kind of stuff. If you're a repeat listener of the show, I'd deeply appreciate it if you left an honest review over on iTunes. I also have a monthly newsletter, yeah, where I send out my reading recommendations of what you might have missed from the world of the podcast on the first of the month. Head over to BrendanOmero.com for show notes and to subscribe to the newsletter. Once a month, no spam. Can't beat it.
00:03:31
Speaker
What else?
00:03:34
Speaker
Oh yes, today's podcast is brought to you by Creative Nonfiction Magazine. For nearly 25 years, Creative Nonfiction has been fuel for nonfiction writers and storytellers publishing a lively blend of exceptional long and short-form nonfiction narratives and interviews, as well as columns that examine the craft, style, trends, and ethics of writing true stories. In short, Creative Nonfiction is true stories well told.
00:04:02
Speaker
I think that should just about do it. Here's my conversation with the brilliant Lisa Dappolito.
Educational Influences
00:04:10
Speaker
I grew up in Greenwich Village among a lot of artists and creative people. What kind of influence did that have on you as a young person as then you progressed through your middle school years into high school and so forth?
00:04:33
Speaker
I think it had a lot of influence, even though my parents weren't creative people. I think our teachers in school were really creative and my best friend's mom was, and she's still like my mentor, she was an off-Broadway director and actor, off-off-Broadway, like very bohemian. Her name is Sandy Sherrin. And just thinking outside of box creativity. So I got it like sort of by osmosis.
00:05:01
Speaker
from just being around a lot of creative people, I think. And the public school system in some ways in New York is awful, but in some ways it's very good too because you're exposed to all these amazing museums and theater and you take class trips to all these great places. So there's a lot of stimuli and creative ideas floating around.
00:05:27
Speaker
That's gotta be tremendously, just the city as a resource has to be so great because like you're saying at your fingertips really, if you had that inclination to be a painter, you can go check out the museums or an actor as you have done. You have Broadway and off-Broadway and that must have been really influential like outside of the boundaries of school. Yeah, I mean we have really, you know, it's interesting with Facebook you find all your old friends on mine
00:05:58
Speaker
Now we're starting to find our old teachers. And when we were in junior high school and we were 14 to 17, some of our teachers were only like 21 or 22 or 23. So it's really interesting. I'm sure that is all over the country, you have young teachers. But, you know, they were really creative and we were really lucky. You know, not everybody has that luck in New York, but
00:06:23
Speaker
It is there if you if you're wanting to have somebody that you expose it to you. They must even if they were that young, they must have seemed so old to you at the time too, even though there was only like 5 or 6 years between you. Yeah, it's so strange because we have somebody posted our 5th grade class online and they talked about our teacher. Mr Tobin who we have found online.
00:06:47
Speaker
And he was only 21 years old, but he wrote all these plays, and he was an actor, and we just thought he was the coolest person in the world. And we were all remembering the parts that he wrote for us. And this wasn't like a fader school or anything. This was just a regular class. But it was really lucky. I think I was really lucky to be around so many creative people. And at the time, you know, Greenwich Village really was a magnet.
00:07:14
Speaker
for creative people. And what did that fifth grade Lisa see herself doing in the future? Oh, I think I want to be an, I mean, I always wanted to be an actress from the time I was a kid. So that was really sort of what I always wanted to do.
00:07:31
Speaker
And what steps did you start taking as maybe you started to show some talent and some adherence to wanting to do it? What were some of those paths along the way or the things along the way that you were using to sort of manifest that dream? And maybe some mentors who were coaching you along the way too.
Early Acting Ventures
00:07:54
Speaker
I don't think I, I mean, I don't think I really had any acting talent, to be honest with you. I make out later in life. But, but everyone has dreams. And that's what you want to do. And I think I never, you know, I dabbled in all kinds of different arts, like, in junior high school, I played the flute. And then I went to an art school for high school. And, but among the way, I was always in plays. And I started getting professional work when I was younger.
00:08:24
Speaker
you know, commercials and things like that. So there was a lot of, I think with my teachers, my friends, there was a lot of influences because people were really doing their own thing. And so I don't know, I think in some ways it all adds, you know, your whole life kind of adds up to who you are. And so, you know, it's like layers of different things you experience. As into the, you know, your creative, you know, if you're doing a creative project, I think it's
00:08:53
Speaker
It all adds into that. At what point in your journey as an actor, did you start to think, oh, you know what? I might be more comfortable or I want to at least experiment being behind the camera. My ex-husband was an actor. So when my friend was born, we were both actors and it's not a really easy life if you're not working full time. So one of us had to get a real job. So I fell into this.
Shift to Filmmaking
00:09:23
Speaker
part-time, my friend got me a job at this ad agency. And somehow I fell into the production department because even though I wasn't a producer, I knew all the casting directors and I knew all the production companies and I knew how casting and stuff like that worked. So once I started doing that, I really loved it. And I really saw how much easier it is to be on the other side of the camera than to be in front of it.
00:09:50
Speaker
How valuable was it for you having been in front of the camera and gone through casting and even working on some high profile projects? I'm sure many people are familiar with you and have done even just a modicum of research, know that you were in Goodfellas. So you worked on some prime sets. So how did being in front of the camera influence and help you when you got behind the camera? Well, one, I had a lot of sympathy for actors. I think it was
00:10:20
Speaker
and a lot of sympathy for crew people. So I kind of understood what everybody did in terms of production and what they go through. And I knew everybody's role. So I think I tried to always put the best productions together with the best people possible, because I was very lucky. Besides from Goodfellas, I worked on a lot of other movies.
00:10:47
Speaker
Um, either in production or as a stand in or, and so I really worked with, you know, I saw the best people work and those people, those really amazing directors are so nice to work for. And, and the, the, I learned that the, um, the most successful people create the best experience for the people on the set. So I think I, I, I didn't think I thought about it, but I think I learned that, you know,
00:11:17
Speaker
Because I think also people think like acting, directing,
Filmmaking Challenges
00:11:21
Speaker
you have this kind of idea of what it is. And it really is just really hard work with people working really hard and doing the best, you know, doing their jobs the best that they can.
00:11:32
Speaker
Right. So many people, they don't realize, just like you're saying, to make a piece of art, whether that's a documentary film, a true story, or even feature films that are fictitious and anything, that kind of rigor that goes into the day-to-day grind of it.
00:11:51
Speaker
And at what point did you realize, especially as a director and filmmaker, that this is a grind? I need to find ways to check in with myself so I don't get overwhelmed by the sheer titanic mass of the project. I don't know if I ever did that. I just think there's such satisfaction when you see it all come together.
00:12:17
Speaker
whether it's a commercial, you know, once you're like, you go through different phases, once everything's shot, and then you're sitting in the edit room, there's a new stress that happens. And then there's a new excitement as it starts to get put together. And so I think there's different, different periods for different, you know, you get to relax at different points in different periods. I think at least it was for me. And I always loved the excitement of being on it. I really loved the excitement of being on a set.
00:12:48
Speaker
And I also really like the somewhat relaxing feeling it is to be in an edit room. I think that the part that was always stressful for me was, you know, in my professional life in advertising was before, before everything was put together, before you really knew you were doing a project and you were trying to put all the pieces together. And I think that was the same thing with my film.
00:13:15
Speaker
is before you know you have the money or you have the talent or you have the, that's the stressful part for me is not knowing if something's going to happen or not. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm sure in your, in your head, you have a sort of an idealized vision of what you want it to look like, but you have to still get all those ducks in a row. Yeah. Yeah. And, and.
00:13:44
Speaker
you have to motivate and push to make things happen too. So there's a lot of self motivation. What is that self talk like for you to keep yourself motivated? I don't know. I have a good support system of friends around me. And so it's always good to have somebody to talk to.
00:14:12
Speaker
when you're when you're really feeling like oh my god I don't think this is going to happen or or that so I think I have that which is really good and I think um somebody told me every day to do the thing you don't want to do the first like the first thing of the day should be the thing you really don't want to do so that really kind of helps in some ways when you get the thing over that you
00:14:37
Speaker
Whether it's like you want to make a phone call to ask somebody to be involved in your project or whether you have to, I don't know, pick up your laundry. You know, sometimes it's like the thing you don't, and I found that kind of freeing creatively because you can waste a lot of time worrying about, about things or worrying about like, Oh, I have to do this. I have to do this. But when you do it and you get it, at least for me, you get it out of the way, then you can move on to the other things that really matter.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of creates its own momentum in a way too, when you're able to sort of knock off those tasks that are taking up a lot of sort of ram inside your brain. Yeah. Yeah. And some of them are big, you know, some of them are big tasks, like, you know, emailing somebody and or, or calling somebody and asking them for, for support, you know, to ask them for money for film or to ask them to be in the film or,
00:15:35
Speaker
Or so some of those are big things and some are little.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, there are moments, too. It's hard for me to sometimes pick up the phone and have an interview, whether I'm writing a story or even having a podcast or anything, to have that interview. Because there's a certain degree of performance anxiety, if you will, that I sort of suffer with. And those things, like you're saying, if I don't knock them out early, they can really sort of weigh you down like a lead vest.
00:16:07
Speaker
Um, similarly, are there kinds of anxieties of that nature that, that you kind of wrestle with that once you get them out of the way, you're like, Oh, it frees you up to be the creative person that you are.
Connection to Gilda Radner
00:16:20
Speaker
I guess it depends on different things because we have love Gilda, it started as a passion project. So it's always been, I've always been like the main filmmaker producer on it. So there's a lot of, um,
00:16:36
Speaker
paperwork and financial stuff and things that if it wasn't a passion project, there would be a team of people to help. So I think those are the, and those are like the whole, in the whole scheme of making a film, that has been the biggest anxiety sometimes for me, is to follow up on paperwork and expenses and Excel sheets and things that are totally not, they have nothing to do with the creative process.
00:17:03
Speaker
but they have to do with the whole overall production.
00:17:10
Speaker
And also as a passion project too, most things you're just accountable to yourself. But then maybe as you start to get investors and backers, suddenly you're not just beholden to you and your vision. It's kind of like you've got other people you have to think about too because you don't want to let them down. I imagine that kind of weighs on you too.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, it weighs down on you, but it also motivates you. Like early on in my project, I did an Indiegogo campaign and raised a decent sum of money. So there's all these, there were like 400 people who gave big and small to the project and they're all waiting for the film to come out. So in some ways it weighs you down, but in some ways you're accountable because you're like, oh my God, these people gave money and these people have their trust in you that you're going to
00:18:04
Speaker
that you're going to complete what you said you're going to complete. Cause it is really nice for people to give you money that you don't even know you because they support your project. I mean, that's, that's, and I do, I, I old like, but like just on a side note, after the film comes out, you know, the film comes out on DVD and on demand, I still have to, um,
00:18:29
Speaker
to honor all the people who donated and would get a DVD. So those are like the little things that kind of have weighed me down on this job, on this project. But it's also wonderful that I had that support because I wouldn't have probably started the film unless I had that seed money.
00:18:46
Speaker
Yeah, and it's got to be on top of just having the money to help with resources and travel and whatever it is to help assemble the thing. It's also incredibly validating that you have – it's almost like doing – you have an audience that's hungry for this and that's like, oh, I'm not just making this in vain. There's actually going to be people who want to see this when it's done.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it was great to know that there were so many people who love Gilda out there. I had a feeling there were, but it was really nice that there were people who wanted to see something about her.
00:19:24
Speaker
And when you take on projects of this nature, of course, they take a long time. It took you four and a half years from conception to putting it together. Often you're going to be with this for a long time, and oftentimes you're drawn to a certain subject because there could be something that…
00:19:44
Speaker
you see in that main subject that sort of reflects back to you. So when you take on a subject like Gilda, what elements of you did you see in her and what connection did you have with her as you were making the film and doing all your research? I think a lot in the sense of I really loved learning about how she developed her characters and all the process that led to her career. So I really loved and identified with
00:20:14
Speaker
her younger years in theater and how she created her character. So I really loved that part. And also, I think many parts of her, I mean, her insecurities about what she looks like and who she was, I think it was something that I and so many other people can identify with.
00:20:40
Speaker
I mean, I wasn't saying like, oh, I was exactly like her, but I can understand the insecurity she had and why she had them. And as an outsider, you don't think, you think when people have it all, they should have it all. But underneath it all, there's, you know, not every, probably no one's 100% happy. There's always something. And you can look at somebody's life and see like Gilda was,
00:21:09
Speaker
at the time America's sweetheart and got an Emmy. And then she's struggling with all these inner things that are going on. So I found that very interesting and very real. And then on another note, I had gone through my family's illness, my grandmother and my parents. So I can identify with, I mean, not exactly through the skill that was the person who was actually
00:21:36
Speaker
going through it herself, but I can identify, you know, I can identify with that, you know, the pain and the unknowing and the uncertainty of what life is like when you have a health situation. Yeah. Is that, is that experience that you had with the, with the illness in your family, what kind of brought you to Gilda's club?
00:22:03
Speaker
No, you know, it's interesting because I never made the connection for some strange reason, even though Gilda's Club is like three blocks away from where I grew up. It took me a long time to realize why I love Gilda's Club so much. I think I loved it because I love the people, the spirit of the people who are going through these really challenging times and are open and honest and have fun and have humor and have support and support each other.
00:22:33
Speaker
So I think I found people very courageous because I would interview them for these fundraising videos and they were so open and many, or if not most, had very serious cancers and illnesses. And we're able to talk about it and face it. And I just found that really, really inspiring. And, you know, Gilda Sperry kind of lives on there in Gilda's Club and she, many of the members had read her book.
00:23:00
Speaker
So once I started doing the fundraising videos, I read her book. And so I guess I just was very inspired by her. But then later on, my friends are like, you know why you love Gilda? You know, why you're doing this film or why you love Gilda's Club? And I was like, oh, because I love Gilda. And they're like, no, because of your parents. I said, oh, yeah, you're
Documentary Evolution
00:23:20
Speaker
right. You know, in some ways, I kind of wish, you know, Gilda's Club has support for people who are going through and their family who are going through things.
00:23:30
Speaker
A year after my parents passed away, I guess in some ways I get that kind of support now by still working on projects for them. Did your parents pass away in the same year? Yeah, it's kind of sad if I say it all out loud. But my dad, Pat, my dad and my mother and my grandmother all within 18 months and I was pregnant at the time.
00:23:57
Speaker
Oh, man. Yeah, so yeah, I know it sounds so sad. So, you know, well, it is it is very sad. I'm really sorry you had to go through that. So I think that was sort of why in terms of Gilda, you know, I didn't come from the project thinking I want to do a film about Roseanne Rosanna and her characters. I think I was I started the project was really first about Gilda's Club and then it morphed more into
00:24:25
Speaker
Gilda's legacy at Gilda's Club and then it morphed into more of Gilda's journey with cancer. And then it was her whole life because I felt like I wanted to know who she was.
00:24:40
Speaker
Right, because you could have easily have taken the direction of making this solely about her comedy and that public side of her, but you went to a much more raw and vulnerable place with her. When were you conscientious of that? That was going to be your vision of this film. Well, I always wanted it to be... I never wanted it to be just a series of sketches about it.
00:25:09
Speaker
But I think there was a very big changing point in the film. And that was when Gilda's brother, who's been the biggest supporter of the film, about halfway through the film, I was just going to finish it up as a small film for Gilda's clothes and kind of let it be what it was. And then he gave me access to Gilda's boxes that had been in storage since she passed away. And in those were diaries and
00:25:39
Speaker
audio recording she did and her photo album. And that was like a changing, like a big, the changing moment of the creative of the film. Right. Because once that, yeah, so once I was able to start listening to Gilda, and I thought Gilda's interviews that were available, you know, through NBC or ABC or, or online. And when I've listened to her personal audio tapes, and I can really hear her
00:26:09
Speaker
talking and really hear her telling a story. It was, it was like as if she was talking to me. And I think everybody who's been involved in the film, all the editors and producers, and everyone has that feeling when they hear it, the real authentic builder that she's actually talking directly to them. So that was really the changing point. And that was my goal was to try to
00:26:36
Speaker
create a film that was really Gilbert's story from her point of view as much as I could tell it from her point of view.
00:26:43
Speaker
And what was the, let's see, the, excuse me, the process by which you began courting people to talk about her and of her and people who were inspired by her as you were looking to get other voices into the film that were, you know, besides Gilda's. What was that process like for you as you began trying to get those lead dominoes and get those people on camera for you?
00:27:14
Speaker
I think, I mean, in some ways that's why this film took so long because it took a while to, each person led to another person who led to another person. So once somebody felt comfortable being filmed, like first it was Alan and Robin Ziedel, Gilda's good friends, and Gilda's writing partner on F&L. And then a couple months later, it was Michael, Gilda's brother. And then a couple months later, it was Gilda's best friend, Judy.
00:27:45
Speaker
you know, and then I started to get more of the more famous people like Paul Schaeffer and Lorraine Newman. And then that led to, you know, Martin Short and then like Amy Poehler led to all the modern day comedians. So each person kind of led to another person. It would have been great if I shot everything at the same time, but each person was a separate shoot in a separate location. So, um,
00:28:15
Speaker
So, but it was all about trust. You know, trust that for Gilda's friends that I was doing the right story. And I think for the modern day comedians, I mean, it's a gift if anyone's been being a documentary because they're managers and they're agents. You know, not super supportive because there's no payment involved. And these are all really busy people who are getting dozens, if not hundreds of offers.
00:28:44
Speaker
to do things. So it's really a gift that anybody would participate in a documentary. And I think they do it because they really believe in what you're doing. And in my case, I really love Gilda and really truly was inspired by her.
Gaining Trust for the Documentary
00:29:04
Speaker
Yeah, I've written down in my notes trust actually because projects of this nature, you do have to engender trust from the core people and then as that radiates out, you can – it validates the enterprise and you get people on board.
00:29:21
Speaker
At what point did you, or how did you engender the trust that it took to get that ball rolling, get that momentum so you could secure a lot of these titans of the comedic industry into your movie? Well, I had a really good producer, James, who has a great reputation in the industry with getting talent.
00:29:51
Speaker
So that was really helpful because she knew how to get to talent, which is really important. But I think trust, I don't know. I mean, I've always been, that's always been my goal is to really tell an honest story of Gilda. And she's a really good person to do an honest story about because she doesn't have, though she has insecurities, she's a very optimistic, she's a very optimistic,
00:30:19
Speaker
And her story, though it's sad, what happened to her is still an inspiring story. So I tried to always keep to the truth. So I think her friends kind of understood that. And also they were such a good resource. Besides Michael, who is supportive in every way, Gilda's best friends, Judy and Pam and her friend Robin, they all gave me over periods of time.
00:30:46
Speaker
their home movies and letters. And I think that they got to a point where they did trust me. And then when we saw this, there was another moment when everyone sees the film and you wonder, oh my God, are they going to be? I mean, I've tested different ideas about it. But you worry, you know, because I never met Gilda. The film is
00:31:14
Speaker
is the creation of my imagination of who she is. So there's a, you know, there was a very, especially Gilda's brother, I was very concerned of how, you know, did I really capture the real Gilda? And, you know, her friends will say I did, like her friend Alan told me, I mean, he's been wonderful, him and Robin promoting the film. So they go out to a lot of screening
00:31:43
Speaker
and then do like a question and answer afterwards. And Alan just emailed me a couple of days ago, he's like, you know, the film gets better every time I see it. Oh, wow. And that means a lot. Yeah. Um, you know, that, that everyone feels, and they feel even more that they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they feel like they
00:32:13
Speaker
Gilda had dozens and dozens and dozens of people in her life who loved her, you know, who were good friends, you know, somehow Gilda had like a million friends besides the audiences who loved her. So it was very, I think it was building a trust, but also people didn't really want to talk about her because they made them sad. And I think it's a movie in some ways brings her back
00:32:44
Speaker
though some of her friends are like it makes me too sad I can't see it again but but other but other people are like you know very but everyone does like it in her circle friend so that's that's probably the thing I feel most proud of.
00:32:57
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. And when you got some of the material, I'm thinking of her journals and a lot of those great archival home movies, when you got those in your hands, what was going through your mind when you had that material in your lap?
Utilizing Archival Materials
00:33:17
Speaker
Well, I mean, the first, there were the audio, so in her collection that Michael had was a whole lot of audio tape.
00:33:27
Speaker
So there are audio tapes that Gilda created for her book. And there were 32 hours of audio tapes for that, among other things that she just recorded. But the audio was, besides being amazing, was extremely damaged. And each tape had a different problem. And each part of each tape had a different problem. Like there were some tapes that were great. And then you get to a point that you just couldn't hear. You could always hear, but it was,
00:33:57
Speaker
always warped or there were so many different problems. So the first, since my goal was to really have a girl to tell her story, the first thing we really did was go through all the audio tapes and put together a film based on these audio tapes. And so the first cut of the film had a lot of bad audio and we tried
00:34:24
Speaker
everywhere, post-production companies all over the world in Berlin, nobody could really fix, at that point, no one could really fix the tapes. So the first rendition of the film was with subtitles. And my filmmaker friends were like, it's okay, it's really Gilda. And then my non filmmaker friends were like, this is really annoying. And I can't hear and I can't watch. And so that was going to the audio
00:34:51
Speaker
was really hard. And then subsequently, we went and found a lot of different interviews that she had done that like, even like the interview and on it, you're already doing back in the day, people would record it on an audio, you know, an except tape. And we actually found a few of the journalists who kept their tapes, including
00:35:16
Speaker
two students from the University of Michigan who went and interviewed Gilda in 1977 or 78 at SNL and they kept the tape. So yeah, so then we were able to start supplementing some of the bad audio with some good audio. Then we started using her audio book, which I didn't really want to use because she had recorded her book three weeks before she died. So to me, I could hear the sadness in her voice. So I tried to
00:35:46
Speaker
limit that and so that so in terms of all the material that was the first layer was getting to the audio and until we were in audio post-production I didn't even know if it would work because along the way there were editors telling me we needed you know we needed to get an accent in and read from our skills of voiceover and that was something that I never really wanted so and then we had this
00:36:14
Speaker
amazing guy named Dominic Bartoli who actually was able to really fix some of the bad audio which was and I don't know what he did or how he does it but um so that was that was the hardest and then the journals were just you know another layer so um to me the audio was Gilda's you know Gilda telling her story and the journals that we use I tried to
00:36:43
Speaker
have her inner voice. Tell the part of her story that she didn't tell and that her friends could tell. Those are brilliant. You can see how excited Amy Poehler and Bill Hader and Cecily Strong were when they had that in their hands. It was like Indiana Jones getting his hands on the Ark of the Covenant. It was pure treasure.
00:37:09
Speaker
Yeah, that was, you know, that was surprising because at that point I had had the diaries for a year. And they mostly read from something I call the same diary, where Gilda just writes down random thoughts or sketches or things about them. And I got so used to having diaries. So when I pulled them out to each of the actors, their reaction was so strong. And so I wasn't really expecting that at all.
00:37:40
Speaker
which is really nice. And over the course of the project, like you said, four and a half years, what part of making a film like this, where do you feel most alive and most engaged in that process? I think for me, it's when I'm interviewing people. I love that. And I love hearing them. Gilda from her friend.
00:38:07
Speaker
And I loved hearing about Amy and Bill and everyone inspired by Gilda. So that's my favorite part of the whole process. It's actually the interview process. And then I love when it's in a rough cut. That's really good when it's all like together and you have something. I know when it's really done.
00:38:32
Speaker
Well, I don't know, because it's never really done. Right. It is what it is. But I mean, it's the process of sitting there and interviewing and hearing, you know, and learning. Because I think that's what it can mean. You know, documentaries are, it's just like, it's not, it's you learn from these interviews. I mean, you learn from the research you do, but there's nothing like listening to somebody tell a story or
00:39:00
Speaker
From their point of view, these were so much.
Interview Insights
00:39:03
Speaker
And in some ways, because the interviews were over a period of time, it allowed me to be able to go and research things in the meantime that I had learned, you know, places to go to where was that was never anywhere online I would hear about from an interview and then I could go through
00:39:26
Speaker
archival and try to find out she was in Boston, maybe there's something in Boston. So I think I also love the whole detective work of it all. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like an act of discovery. You know, this thing leads to that thing. And then it just all of a sudden, like, whoa, I could have never imagined that on day one, that it was going to reveal this. But over the course of your research and interviewing, you're like, holy cow, I'm over, I'm over here now. I would have never thought of that.
00:39:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's really fascinating. I mean, it's really fascinating to get into somebody's life and read their journals and kind of know what they're thinking or create what you're thinking or think about. Why do you think we'd analyze things in our life?
00:40:23
Speaker
why did she do this Broadway play or why didn't she go out with, why did she go out with this guy? It's like we're analyzing somebody's life and it's really fun or interesting.
00:40:36
Speaker
When you're sitting in the editing room and maybe you have that rough cut and you know you have to still find ways to maybe trim it down or just tighten things up, what is that process like for you? Ultimately, how do you come to the decision about what to leave out, which is every bit as important as what you leave in, really? Well, it's a collective process, too. In terms of our process,
00:41:07
Speaker
it was what we had too. Like the home movies were such a gem. So how do we use the home? Like we use all the home movies that we could, um, uh, you know, there's parts of Gilda's career that we left out because they weren't, you know, or that were in there. There were interviews that were in there that came out. Um, also I, I, I always do,
00:41:36
Speaker
Throughout this process, there are people that I show cuts to. And I've shown people in the industry and also friends who have nothing to do with filmmaking. So from the moment of like assemblies and cuts, I do show people to get their opinion too, to see what resonates with them and what doesn't resonate with them. And then we did have a rough cut.
00:42:04
Speaker
we had a screening for like a hundred people and they were filmmakers and they were not filmmakers and my son brought a whole bunch of college kids who had no idea who Gilda was. Oh wow. Which was really yeah so just to see like um
00:42:21
Speaker
You know, when you still make, you know, I watch the film now and I think I've ever had a mistake that I made, you know, but that was one of the things I wanted to know is, would this film resonate with people who didn't know who Gilda was? So that was, that's, so yeah, I mean, it's a process and I mean, you still, I think, take yourself and say, why didn't I put that in and why did I leave that in? And why didn't I focus more on this? So why did I focus?
00:42:50
Speaker
Why did I focus too much on this? So I don't know. It just kind of happens. And then we had the deadline because we knew we got into the Tribeca Film Festival. So it was like the film is done. It has to be done. Because I think you can go on forever putting things in and taking things out.
00:43:09
Speaker
Oh, definitely. Oh, absolutely. And I think that's something anyone creating anything can relate to. I forget who had the quote, but it was like all morning I labored about putting a comma in. I spent the afternoon taking the comma out and it's just like...
00:43:28
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like, you could really, the only difference between the finished product and what you're working on is that, you know, it's on a DVD. Now I can't touch it anymore. It's published, but if I could, I would. Yeah. And the audience is, or the reader is not going to know the comma or not comma. Right. Right. You know, you know, so it's, uh, it's, um, yeah, it's a,
00:43:54
Speaker
a process, you know, in some ways our process was what do we have and why don't we have this other stuff. So there were things that we were searching for that, you know, because of the film is, you know, strongly made up of the other voice, you have to have visuals that go with it. And there were some good stories and things that had no visuals that we could find to tell the story. So there were things that were lost
00:44:23
Speaker
just because we, you know, there's just so many photos you could show. And if you have photos that don't make sense to what somebody's talking about, then, so those were cuts, some of the cuts we made. Like there was this great story about Gilda being at camp and how she felt like such an outsider. And when she was in a play, all the pretty girls would be the princesses and all the bossy girls would be next to the princesses.
00:44:54
Speaker
And then her, the fat girl, would be like the maid or the jester. And the way she tells it, and then she's like, I would go into my cabin, and I would eat tootsie rolls, and I would just cry. And then I realized, you know, I can't be pretty, but I could be funny. And it's such a great story. Well, yeah, what a moment. Yeah, but there was nothing to end up for the audio. The audio was really, really bad. And everyone was really telling me to lose the story. And I really didn't want to lose it.
00:45:24
Speaker
But the audio was really bad. So people didn't understand. I was the only one who understood. I could tell the story, and it sounds really good. But if you were listening to the audio, you'd be like, what is she talking about? And then there was no. So that was one of those things that creatively, you're like, I love this. This is the best. And then you have editors and producers saying, well, an audience is saying, well, we don't understand what she's talking about.
00:45:53
Speaker
I think the sentiment of that scene, even though as great as it would have been, but the way you were able to craft the story, you can feel that from her, that moment in that scene about her using comedy as a way to win the acclaim, using that as her secret weapon.
00:46:18
Speaker
And that bubbles through the whole, just that sentiment bubbles through the whole film. So even though it wasn't in there, you knew of it enough to elicit it in the movie, if that makes any sense. Thank you. I'm glad you got that. Yeah, because I was really heartbreaking to take out that audio. But yeah, I mean, that sort of, to me, was the sentiment of Gilda. And she could tell that story in different ways, but that was just the best way that she had told it.
00:46:48
Speaker
But you can't have everything. You can't have everything. And when you were putting together your component parts of the movie, how did you keep that organized? Are you a corkboard and index card kind of person or post-it notes? How do you keep those things straight? Well, for me, everything is in my head, which doesn't make it easier for people who work with you. Right.
00:47:17
Speaker
But because this was a four and a half, you know, a long process,
Editing Process
00:47:21
Speaker
you know, the first two years my editor David and I really, you know, we transcribed everything and he put things into buckets. And I knew, I did know the, I knew all the footage, I knew everything I had inside and out and I had, I had,
00:47:39
Speaker
taken it and put it in my own like, um, um, premiere. Like I made my own selects and I did my own things that had nothing to do with, you know, I would show the editors, but like, I, I really knew that footage inside and out. And then when Anne, um, my main editor who really, really edited the film came in, she is the opposite of me. She is the, the index cards and the, and the,
00:48:07
Speaker
And she's super organized, like really super organized. So it's a really good component. It was a good person for me to have as an editor, because she was the opposite of me. She was super linear and organized. And I had it all in my head. Yeah, I know. It's different. Different people have different ways of doing things.
00:48:32
Speaker
But to me, it was really sort of, I really needed to know the material inside and out and I kept it and I could always say, Oh yeah, in April, April 1976, Gilda talked about in this tape, she talked about this. So I knew it. So that's very helpful. Yeah. Just to really say we had, once we really started post-production, we had an amazing edit team and a whole support system. We had a supervising editor.
00:48:59
Speaker
At one point we had two editors, we had an assistant editor, we had another assistant editor. So there was, because it's so heavily archived, it was a lot of work. And I did have thousands of photos and dozens of hours of audio and lots of interviews. So I can't, so in terms of organizing, I really have to say the editors did an amazing job.
00:49:25
Speaker
And this being your first feature-length documentary, what movies or documentaries were you watching or inspired by that you modeled yourself after as you were looking to put this together? Well, I watched every biography doc that I could find. And so that was really important to see how other people told the stories.
00:49:55
Speaker
Um, but I don't know if I was, I was so, I'm not sure if there was anybody I modeled my, the film after. Um, I think to me, I was sort of still, I had my actors cap on and I was sort of thinking of Gilda as a character and sort of going through it that way. Though I've seen so many great bio docs that, that, um, and I can't even name.
00:50:25
Speaker
Any of that, I mean, they're all, the Listen to Me Marlin doc was great, and the Kurt Cobain, and Jane, and I mean, there were so many good ones.
00:50:39
Speaker
When you were tackling this project, it being your first one, I know you spent a lot of years at the ad agency doing that kind of production, but when you tackled this, what surprised you about how difficult it is to assemble a 90 minute feature documentary?
Production Challenges
00:51:00
Speaker
I think I was naive in the sense of the resources involved because
00:51:06
Speaker
coming from, though I had done a lot of long-form projects, like a lot of long-form, you know, our pretty serious topics in healthcare, you know, that would be considered documentaries, but more for a corporate audience. And I didn't really, you know, I always had a budget. I didn't ever have to think about raising money. And there were always resources available. So I think.
00:51:36
Speaker
That was one of the hardest things was realizing all the things that you need. And also budgets and documentaries are not the same as in advertising. So I couldn't exactly call, you know, the editors and some of the people I've worked on with before because, you know, they were making, you know, a lot more money than, unfortunately, the documentary people make. Or is it here into a documentary budget?
00:52:05
Speaker
So that was difficult to know who, you know, where to find the right people in some sense. And then creatively, you know, hour and a half carrying a story. I don't know. It sort of, it, it revolved over, evolved over a period of time. I think working with a composer, I'd never really worked. I've never worked one-on-one with, uh,
00:52:33
Speaker
composer, a real composer. I've worked with music houses who kind of hand you over things, but I've never worked intimately with a composer. And I really had had a wonderful composer, Miriam Cutler, who came in. She really came in late in the project. I think she had, I can't even remember, but she had like six weeks to compose the whole film.
00:53:03
Speaker
And I really learned from her, how her process and how she worked really taught me the importance of music in a film. And I think just like how fascinating it is, it's how a different, how a musical or composer feel, but like how they see a film and how, so that was a real learning experience for me. And I really, I think one of my favorite things that,
00:53:33
Speaker
that I learned making this film. And is this a storytelling form that you feel like you want to return to for future projects?
Passion for Documentary Filmmaking
00:53:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, I love this. I love the discovery. I love the inspiring person. I love, you know, it is sort of like acting in some ways, whereas when you're an actor, you're creating a character. So I found that this is this is very fulfilling.
00:54:03
Speaker
to have a subject and bring this person to life. So I really do love, I love this type of filmmaking.
00:54:16
Speaker
Awesome. Well, Lisa, you've been very generous with your time. I'm so thrilled and honored that we got to talk about you and your process and of course your wonderful movie and tribute to Gilda Radner.
How to Watch 'Love Gilda'
00:54:31
Speaker
Where can people find out more about you on maybe social media or website and also get more familiar with the movie if they are not already familiar with it? You can go to lovegilda.com.
00:54:45
Speaker
and find out all about The On Demand and how to watch the film. And then basically I've just been, my social media has been the film itself. So you can go on Facebook and find Love Gilda on Twitter. And basically my identity and Love Gilda has merged into one, which I think I have to spend some time and start my own and go out on my own in the social media world.
00:55:13
Speaker
So wish, that was fun. Thank you to Lisa. Of course, you just heard her say this, but you can find her at LoveGildaFilm on Twitter. And LoveGilda also has Facebook page. Go check that out. Go rent or buy the movie. It's a pretty special film and it's Lisa's first feature. Can you believe that? I can't wait to see what she comes up with next. Of course, you can follow the show in myriad places.
00:55:42
Speaker
It's on Twitter at cnfpod and at Brendan O'Mara, of course. Do I keep, I keep saying of course. Stupid, stupid. If you have any questions or things you're struggling with, perhaps verbal text and things you say over and over and over again in your work, shoot me a note. Be sure to share the show across your platforms to help grow our little community in our little corner of the internet and go subscribe to my newsletter at BrendanO'Mara.com.
00:56:13
Speaker
Shame when I say share the show, you know, share it with one friend. Share it with the people who find you interesting on your social platforms. I don't care if you have four followers or four thousand. Doesn't matter. We're here to join join arms in this true storytelling medium. You know, I got to finish my book, man.
00:56:36
Speaker
This stupid book. Gotta finish it. Why? Because I want to start like two other ones. I need to finish a stupid baseball book. I know how to sell it, don't I? Man. Anyway, that's it, brah. Remember, if you can't do interview, see ya.